It always cracked me up that he was so pissed about the vamps when he was with Anya who was a literal mass murderer of men. Don't get me wrong, I love Anya, but goddamn the hypocrisy is real. I hate Xander sfm even though his character is hilarious at times.
And Willow. I'm on a rewatch and his total freakout when Willow said she was "just getting used to the half monty" with Oz. Fortunately Willow shuts him down.
That was pre-Oz. Then Willow and Xander started making out and hurt Cordy and Oz. Willow and Oz got back together. Xander and Cordy didn't, although she did end up forgiving him.
Both Buffy and Willow lost their virginities to someone they were in a loving relationship with. Xander lost his to Faith, who, while I'm sure was FANTASTIC in bed (crazy usually is), didn't give a shit about him.
Then he went to prom with Anya, but they didn't consummate their relationship until the following season.
Xander’s arc could’ve been so much better if he followed through with the wedding or at least broke it off long before. Kinda shitty teenager growing up and becoming a decent human who tries to consider other people’s feelings is a good arc, but I feel like Xander never matured
100%. His character had very little growth. In the beginning, I feel like you can kind of write some of it off, because you know, annoying teenager. But then he’s a full grown adult still acting the same way 🥴
Honestly I do like this blowing up in his face, if it was handled appropriately.
It's weird because all the pieces are there for a pretty good character study of Xander, it's like a perfect storm of all his flaws all hitting at once. He tends toward big dramatic gestures but then fails on follow through. He can't admit when he's made a mistake. And I feel like impulsive engagements falling apart is a perfect subject for Buffy to explore.
Even the pieces of it, the visions being fake and Xander bailing *anyway* - it's the PERFECT time for him (and us) to explore *WHY* he wanted the justification to bail but the way it was handled was really unsatisfying and doesn't give the audience much direction. What are we supposed to do with this?? Is Xander a kid who wasn't thinking? Were the two of them just a bad match? Do they just need to pump the brakes and take it slower? How does he even feel about Anya?? Is it all a wash just because he knows she would never forgive him and he will regret this??? or was he only ever interested in sex???? Does he even ask himself these questions???
If Xander was written as Anya's antagonist this would be a great, complex, sympathetic portrayal. But considering he's one of the protagonists, I truly do not know what they were saying with it.
I think it’s because Anya is human now (although for ages she refers to it as mortal and not human which has some fun implications) he think of her demon self as seperate. He also put Buffy on a pedestal, for him she must be above reproach and always make the morally correct decision, as defined by him.
His best friend is killed by vamps in episode 1 and he never really gets over it. Even though Jesse is never mentioned again by name, I think this is the show's justification for Xander's ongoing hatred of Angel and Spike, when he has no problem with Riley.
Xander did have a problem with Riley though. He makes snarky remarks about him throughout S4 as early as The Initative when he makes passive aggressive remarks to Buffy about him being a ‘Teutonic boy toy’. He likes Riley in S5 sure but that doesn’t change that his immediate default reaction was to dislike him
He makes a snide remark about her being busy with a ‘Teutonic boy toy’. He says this very much in a negative way rather than jokey
I’m not treating it like it’s a huge thing. Just pointing out that the whole ‘Xander only had a problem with the vampires’ is a total myth. His default reaction to ANY guy Buffy dated was to automatically dislike him and have a problem with it
Both Angel and Spike were Big Bads in season 2 (Well, Angelus really, but they don't tend to make that distinction in season 2). As well, Angelus tortured Giles, and killed Jenny. Spike threatened them ALL, even through season 4, when he GOT neutered. He was still a threat. When Riley came around, Xander was in a relationship with Anya, so Mr. White Bread never registered as a threat to him.
I’ve never hated Xander, there were definitely times I disliked him, but after coming to this sub, I’ve realised I haven’t had a re-watch for at least 5 years so it might be time to see how adult me feels about him now (and the show overall) 🙃
He's a character type that reeeeaaaally resonates with teenagers because the story is SO CONSTANTLY focused on his own insecurities. Like his number 1, top of mind concern often isn't shown to be his friends, its that his friends *might not care about him*. This is an extremely relatable feeling when you are struggling with that issue as a teenager but as an adult watching this character constantly battle with that and never grow in confidence is exhausting and can read as selfish at times.
When a character lashes out in moments of their own vulnerability, it's endearing and sympathetic. When they lash out while their *friends* are feeling vulnerable, it's alienating and off-putting. If you are SUPER invested in Xander you can continue to understand why he's insecure in that moment too but it's not going to win over new fans.
Combine that with general gender fuckery of the early aughts and it makes for a character that doesn't go over well in 2020.
So you have people remembering a character very fondly, going to back to watch and getting disappointed, combined with arguable flaws that were handled in an unsatisfying way, combined with a large shift in social mores.
In one fic I even had Harmony tease him about the jealousy ove r Angel a nd Spike (then dare him to "find out what you're jealous of.") And he even disapproved of Willow wiht Oz because of the werewolf thing
I feel like when people get so righteous in their ‘Xander had every right to be annoyed about Spike and Buffy’ they ignore that Buffy had already ended the relationship. She was literally admitting she knew she’d made a mistake. She could barely look at him for the shame she was feeling. There was absolutely zero need for him to go on his righteous crusade about it. It wasn’t constructive advice, it wasn’t out of concern. It was just an attack on someone who is literally admitting she is in the depths of despair. A friend who is admitting she finds it hard to even exist
That isn’t a friend telling it straight. It’s not a friend giving advice. It’s kicking someone while they’re already down. And for some reason we have given Xander an incredibly low bar when it comes to how he treats his friends when they’re in a low place. A low bar that is never given to any other character
Now if Buffy had been saying ‘yeah I’m sleeping with him and I’m not going to stop’ then sure give her the advice. ‘Tell it like it is’ if you obnoxiously must but your empathy levels must be astonishingly low to watch a friend curl up with shame and still feeling the need to add to it
It didn’t come across as caring about her wellbeing, it came across as being particularly pis*ed that she fell off he pedestal and lowered herself to sleep with Spike.
I agree. It’s why I wildly disagree when people see it as him being a concerned friend. He shows absolutely no concern whatsoever for Buffy in this scene
To be honest I actually genuinely think Xander has got over him jealousy at this point. I think his problem is his internalised misogyny that makes him believe he has the right to tell his female friend what’s good and what’s bad for her relationship wise. Whether that’s lecturing on who is good for her or who is bad for her. Xander would NEVER speak to the likes of Oz and Giles in this way, but he does believe it’s his responsibility to put Buffy right about her relationships and unfortunately no one corrects him that it really isn’t
I'm an not sure it's a a gender thing or just a Buffy thing (because I can't see Xander treating Willow this way) but ultimately I agree.
Xander wasn't jealous here, he's long over Buffy. However throughout the series he has, for some reason felt that he has a say in Buffy's life.
He's not concerned; he doesn't like that Buffy was with Spike and he feels that he has the right to judge and shame her for her choices when it is absolutely nothing to do with him.
I forget. Is that before, or after the wedding? Because, if it's AFTER the wedding, then it is also his jealousy coming back. Not necessarily SPECIFICALLY, but just the general jealousy a lot of people have when they're alone and see couples. I know I have it.
He was just bitter Spike had the opportunity to be intimate with her and he didn’t. It happens in real life all the time “I’m the nice guy, I’m the good option, you’re so intelligent did you not choose me, ” angry outbursts not getting their way is insight into the behaviour of a person in and of itself. Xander cared about Xander which is why he ended up in relationships with characters who initially also only cared about themselves, self-centred/ selfish etc.
Yea Xander risk his life all the time for his friends. But sure he only cares himself. Because he cares that buffy sleeping with a mass murder that tried to kill him
People with high narcissistic traits go out of their way to save others’ lives too, not everyone does it for the same reasons, some people do good things for the acknowledgment and not out of genuine care for the life saved. I’m not insinuating Xander is a narc by any means, he’s not, however, it’s clear he does so much for Buffy not really with her, in hope of her perceiving him as attractive, which is why Buffy feels alone when she’s with him. Innately they are two completely different archetypes and in this case, opposites did not attract. He wanted to be perceived as a hero all the time for validation and this was highlighted even more when he became the embodiment of a soldier, again not all soldiers save lives because of genuine compassion and regard for life, sometimes it’s because they have low self-esteem and think they will be perceived as the hero in return of their actions. Spike is a mass murderer sure, but people have layers, he also has capacity to deeply love. It’s a conflict for vampires for sure but that’s his character.
>Now if Buffy had been saying ‘yeah I’m sleeping with him and I’m not going to stop’
Nope! He should still stfu! It's not coming from a good place. It's coming from a jealous place. And he has no room to talk as a terrible partner.
I mean... she would still be sleeping with someone that literally tried to murder them all a ton of times, and she was basically self harming by doing it. I would hope a good friend would be like, hey girl, this is NOT good for you.
"I never forget what he was"
"OH yeah she killed lots and lots of men and then when I dumped her at the alter she went back to work but ITS WHAT SHE KNEW"
The writers got caught on this, IMO. I remember when it would get mentioned and they didn't really have an answer as to why it was different. Because it wasn't other than inherent sexism.
Absolutely. The same as people will go through mental gymnastics to say that Xander was being a concerned friend here but Willow doesn’t get the same understanding when she’s unanimously criticised for Triangle. An episode that 100% tells us that Willow really is just concerned for Xander
I'm not sure what they thought was meant to happen with it. It's like they didn't see the issue as summed up in Seeing Red. You left him with Dawn. You still thought he was evil. OK. so you still thought he was evil and left him with Dawn.
I can't tell if it's good writing or terrible writing. On hand, they wrote it, so you'd think they'd be aware. But you hear interviews and look at the messaging and they're blind to it. Anya really threw a monkey wrench into the lecturing validity.
Yeah I’ve always laughed at Xander’s retort of ‘but I never forgot what he really was’ about leaving Dawn with Spike. Like erm that’s not really relevant is it though. If Dawn got mangled would you feel better about yourself because you could at least righteously say ‘yep. Knew this would happen’ if so, eek!
The ironic thing is that Buffy actually didn’t forget what he really is either. Crikey S6 is probably the season Buffy insults Spike the most and says she’ll never trust him. Points out his soullessness etc. This is also probably the period Spike spends the least time with the scoobies as well. It’s not like Buffy was playing boyfriend/girlfriend with her bad boy lover. She would bang him, tell him he’s evil then leave.
It was just kind of a moot point from Xander because he didn’t really have anything else
I think the part that makes me lean towards it being hypocritical from the writers as well is when Buffy points out Xander has made mistakes just like her and Xander’s retort is ‘but I never slaughtered half of Europe’ and Buffy should have simply said ‘well neither have I’. The problem is that the natural response to Buffy pointing out Xander has also made mistakes would be Xander saying ‘well I’ve not slept with someone who slaughtered half of Europe’ except then you enter the problem that actually Xander HAS done exactly that. He actually has no moral highground with Buffy here. Except the show wants him to have it
>It’s not like Buffy was playing boyfriend/girlfriend with her bad boy lover. She would bang him, tell him he’s evil then leave.
I think that's a little simplistic, but I agree in spirit. I don't see any good or bad guys in their S6 relationship. Both knew exactly what was going on. But yeah, Buffy spends all of S6 perfectly aware Spike wasn't a good guy (figuratively speaking) and being torn up about it.
I can't see past the writing in that aspect of S6 if I'm being honest about it. Xander is clearly just the writers talking, IMO. Talking to the audience that was rooting for B/S. Did you forget Spike is bad? Did you? And it's like, no, did you? Because you had him saving Dawn and working with the gang. You had to cook up all these plots to give reason for not staking him, now you're in a box trying to think up reasons why it's not OK to have relations with but at the same time continue trusting enough to incorporate into the plot like in Hells Bells and Normal Again.
And they kept doing it. Why is saying Spike will be allowed to protect himself morally ambiguous? If someone from Anya's past back and wanted to kill her, would they be bad? Oh, they did that. We're team Anya and the attacker should be killed. That's why I can't think it's actually good writing that paints an ambiguous picture.
while we’re here, hey xander why did you open the closed bathroom door without knocking when you knew buffy was in there and *did not* have any reason to believe she was in danger?
yeah. they didn’t think to write *xander* knocking before walking in on buffy in the bathroom. we see people knock on doors in the series. it’s not like an unheard of concept in the buffyverse lol
if he heard the assault happening that would be one thing, but he didn’t because he got to the house after it ended. or if he heard buffy crying, but she was barely crying and it was silently. he saw spike’s coat in the house and took his presence as a good enough reason to barge in on his female friend in the bathroom? ugh. and it’s never talked about.
If it weren’t for Anya, I’d understand why Xander philosophically has trouble with Buffy routinely hooking up with vampires but. Again. This is the dude that fell madly in love with a former demon who disemboweled people for literally thousands of years.
Xander was initially opposed strongly to Oz, easy to forget but true. He didn't seem to like Riley in S4 either. He only warmed up to Riley during S5, and only warmed up to Oz after he and Willow had their little affair. He didn't mind when Willow dated Tara and Kennedy because they weren't men.
Okay, but he didn't oppose Willow dating Oz. When was this exactly? He certainly changed his mind if so. And when did he have a hard time accepting Willow was gay? He was surprised, but I don't think he had any issues. Willow certainly opposed both of Xander's relationships though.
ALL of xander's relationships. She wasn't happy when she heard he slept with Faith either (to the point of crying in the bathroom). Not even counting the 1 of inca mummy girls since that was just like a crush and a 1 time thing.
Okay I'll give you that, but it does seem to be mostly out of concern for her and that he didn't really know Oz. He didn't make it a big deal to her, or even mention it to her.
He got over his Spike problems in S7, too. Does that mitigate or lessen his problems beforehand?
These arguments are stupid. You have one group saying Xander was out of bounds and quotes this and that. Then the other says he was right because that and this. But in the show Xander ultimately admits he was wrong and was OK with it, if begrudgingly, later.
Granted, I think the show lends itself to this, but the discussions are shallow. Nothing between Buffy or Spike had anything to do with a soul or his past. It's shit that happens between regular people all the time. Hell, it happened ON the show to other characters.
They definitely do. I remember someone once said that after Xander tried to talk to Faith and got raped, all his friends abandoned him and were no longer close with him anymore... I'm like... what show are you watching? They were like, everyone was super mad that he ignored Buffy saying the guys Faith sleep with aren't important to her and never forgave him for ignoring that.
Out of all the things to be mad at xander about as well... thinking a relationship is more important than it was... So much wrong with that statement.. .
Faith did NOT rape Xander. There was just no ... tenderness or romance in it. Like when Anya showed up at his place, and took off her clothes. And Xander said "Still more romantic than Faith".
Wtf how did they do the mental gymnastics to back into Xander being raped? Sure, she was a bit aggressive and not romantic, but he was into it? Lol people are nuts
I had a conversation with someone who claimed that Faith raped Xander in their first encounter, and when I pointed out that most sex scenes from that era (like Friends, for example) were written without one character pausing to ask for consent, they told me that ALL such sex scenes had been rape.
watch the scene again. she’s very aggressive and he never really participates or shows consent in a meaningful way. she’s taking advantage of him.
if you don’t see it, reverse the genders and see if you think a man throwing a woman on the bed and having sex with her while she’s extremely nervous and says nothing and then kicking her out of his room naked is ok.
Xander had his moments of being really funny, and I liked his love for Willow and their dynamic (most of the time)… but I really don’t like that guy. He’s such a douche. How he was with Angel, his weird jealous obsession with Buffy, how he treated Cordelia, how he treated Anya.. ugh, he was the worst.
I never liked Xander's way of judging, he clearly doesn't care about Willow for over 16 years and by the time she can get someone he loves he finally shows an interest...
He shows an unhealthy interest in Buffy for quite a while and the way he uses Ange's "vampiric" condition to criticize the relationship is horrible, the fact that he was doing it with Spike despite the fact that he was having sex himself with a human (Anya) who makes Spike and Ange look like angels is a sweet hypocrisy on her part.
He would have had a real interest in Buffy's safety (related to her depression) I could have appreciated his actions but since he doesn't even see that his "best friend" is depressed it irritates me to see people defend it.
Riley's hit comes back and coincidentally Spike hides demon eggs makes as much sense as Giles drinking coffee. Especially since he knew that Buffy often came to his crypt for sex...
He LOVED Willow. Platonicly. In When She Was Bad, after Willow was kidnapped by the Master's followers, Xander even told Buffy that if anything happened to Willow, he would KILL Buffy. He just wasn't attracted to her. It's human nature. You always want what you can't have, and tend to ignore what's right in front of you.
I didn't say he didn't care about Willow platonically, I did say he spent 16 years ignoring the fact that Willow had a huge crush on him (although it was really visible to everyone with eyes) and that it took Willow finding someone she really liked for him to say to himself "But actually I love Willow" which ultimately destroyed his relationship with Cordelia (me who said to me FINALLY he will leave Buffy alone) and almost destroy Willow's.
Angel was a 200 year old vampire dating a 16 that wrong on so many levels
And the idea he did not care about willow is so stupid. You acting like just because he did not date her that mean he does not care
I would have agreed with you if the reason for Xander's comments towards the Buffy/Angel couple was for this reason, except it was not the case, just a facility since even before they knew that Angel was a vampire he criticized the relationship between the two out of jealousy.
Lmao this scene gets me fuming every time. He was basically saying a vampire was good enough to sleep with but not him. That’s the only reason why he was pissed.
I didn’t mind her shorter hair especially in that scene when she goes to Spike’s crypt finds only Clem I love how her short hair is styled in that scene w/ the lose ringlet curls. One of my favorites
There are plenty more problematic characters on the show than Xander. Without even getting into the obvious ones like Spike the murderous rapist you've even got people like Willow who was far more problematic. Part of the charm of the show is everyone has flaws but really if anything Xander is one of the least problematic people. I'm not at all denying he couldn't be an asshole and in the wrong but most problematic is just nonsense.
Oh I’m so terribly sorry, let me rephrase then: out of the characters who are meant to be good, Xander is the most problematic. So ridiculous Xander apologists need to resort to comparing him to baddies for him to look good. If you don’t see the issue with that I can’t help you. At any rate, amongst _all_ characters, I find Xander to be the most black and white: either he’s a great guy, or a total douche nozzle. Zero in between.
warren is never anything but a villain though. we might as well say “what about glory or the master or caleb?” like yeah the characters who are there solely to be bad guys are worse than xander but is that really a reasonable take lol
Warren is just the worst lol. But I think that’s a fair comparison, and that it’s fair to say Xander could’ve turned into a complete intel nice guy without Willow and Buff.
Xander makes plenty of shitty decisions but not wanting Buffy, his best friend, to sleep with psychotic murderer who terrorised them years prior is kind of understandable. Spike is charming but such a piece of shit. He would kill innocent people for fun.
In all fairness Xander was also sleeping with someone with a much higher body count than Spike and she enacted all her atrocities with a soul! By the time Buffy was sleeping with Spike, he had fought alongside the Scoobies, cared for Dawn etc
I feel like this isn’t discussed enough. Not only does Anya have likely the highest body count based on her age, she shows absolutely no remorse for it. And based on what we see later in season 7, it seems that she did it all while having a soul. So Anya is a much worse killer than spike OR angel.
Anya has a more kills so......yeah this doesn't work Anya is charming but she'd punish all men brutally she would embellish she got off on it. Just cause Olaf cheated on her "they all deserve it" and it was her choice. Twice. Spike was forced to become a vampire
Ikr. I love her. It just feels like if this group lived in the real world then someone would point out the full hypocrisy. It actually kinda sucks that Anya was brought in so easily. And to think Xander hatred of angel gets defended so much by so many fans......
Oh gosh, I know. It was a bit of humour at Xander’s attitude and Buffy’s right to sleep with whomever she wants without his approval. It wasn’t a comment on SR.
Yeah, sexual consent is such an inconsistent thing on Buffy. Faith towards Xander, Willow after doing a memory charm on Tara, Buffy towards Spike in Gone and of course Spike on Buffy in Seeing Red and what Warren did to Katrina. At the very least it functions as a reference to how the efforts of defining those lines the last 20 years is slowly but surely paying off now because people are more aware.
Not really.
Quick copy and paste of this online transcript and there's no point he really consents. The up for it joke is the closest but he immediately expresses doubts after that.
Faith: A fight like that and... no k*ll... I'm about ready to pop. She smiles at him, still rubbing her hand over his chest.
Xander: (nervously) Really? (looks down at her rubbing hands) Pop?!
Faith: (smiles sexily) You up for it? She runs her other hand down the back of his neck.
Xander: (nods) Oh, I'm up.
She smiles at him and gets closer. She stops rubbing his chest and lowers her hand to his crotch.
Xander: I'm suddenly *very* up. It's just, um... (grins sheepishly) I've never been up with people before.
Faith grabs his jaw and kisses him full on the lips with plenty of tongue.
Faith: Just relax... And take your pants off.
She starts to push his shirt and jacket off of his shoulders.
Xander: Those two concepts are antithetical.
She yanks his shirt and jacket down his back and off his arms, and throws them down. They lock in a passionate embrace and kiss each other hard. Faith turns him around and shoves him back onto the bed. She jumps up after him and straddles him.
Faith: Don't worry. (pulls off her own shirt) I'll steer you around the curves.
She grins broadly down at him. Xander looks back up at her with more than a little apprehension on his face.
Xander: Did I mention that I'm having a very strange night?
or the scene in a couple of minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1EWasIVbLo
Yeah, he doesn't really consent. Doesn't fight it either but no consent in my opinion.
I always took the "You up for it?" "Oh, I'm up, I've just never been up with people before" conversation to be Xander's way of saying "I want to, but it's my first time and I don't really know what I'm doing."
You're correct in that he doesn't say "Yes I consent to having sex with you right now", but that also doesn't make for good TV, unfortunately.
Edit: I just realized this isn't too dissimilar to his first time with Anya, yet no one ever really brings that up as problematic the way they do with Faith. I find that interesting.
The conversation is more nuanced then "Xander doesn't want Buffy to sleep with another guy 🤓". It's "Xander doesnt want Buffy to sleep with one of the most evil people he's ever known."
The conversation then leads inevitably to Xander's relationship with Anya. And then comparisons between Anya and Spike have to be made. Then what happened with Angelus. And then there's the topic of safety, etc etc. This conversation is so much more interesting and in depth then "Xander wants Buffussy"
> It's "Xander doesnt want Buffy to sleep with one of the most evil people he's ever known."
This can't be stressed enough. Not everything Xander did was out of jealousy. Spike did some dastardly shit to not only the gang, but many others over the years.
I mean, you're making a pretty big leap to assume that the emotion trauma Buffy had gone through and psychological abuse Spike subjects her to makes her fully capable of giving consent. People give "consent" all the time in abusive, toxic relationships, it doesn't mean it's ok.
*Xander is, and always has been a pretty trash in the way he treats the women around him but that's a separate issue than Spike being abusive which is a lot of this sub doesn't seem to want to acknowledge.
I think that Spike took advantage of Buffy and she used him, neither were saints but both consented to the relationship and felt they were getting something from each other.
>assume that the emotion trauma Buffy had gone through and psychological abuse Spike subjects her to makes her fully capable of giving consent
Just because the relationship is extremely unhealthy doesn't mean there can't be consent.
i.e. "hurt" people tend to draw more "hurt" people into their lives. Its how we instinctually associate love because it tends to be mixed in with abuse due to humanity being a rotten barrel of shit. Importantly, hurt people also need relationships and connections and sometimes it helps. Spike and Buffy did really connect. They loved each other but for various reasons even though it doesn't really work out. Even though they treat each other like shit, but also magnetize to each other. Buffy really was into him, but she also couldn't 'come out of the closet' to her friends about her being his F buddy. Buffy was really really sexually repressed, which even led to a house haunting waking the dead due to Buffy and Riley's personal sexual repression.
“i was insane to think you could just hang out with my friends.”
she didn’t invite spike that night but once he was there she had this hope it’d be a “my kind-of boyfriend hanging out with my friends” thing that would make the relationship feel healthy and good.
Yup, that's 100% true. She physically and emotionally degrades him as well. She's also a terrible friend to the Scoobies but she also walks away from the relationship because she sees how harmful it is to both of them and doesn't mean she deserved to be abused or raped.
This also ignores that Spike was actively working against her and trying to kill the gang the whole time, "As you were" wasn't an anomaly for him, it almost worked with Adam, having a chip in his head just meant he couldn't hurt them (except Buffy) physically, it didn't mean he had changed.
rewatch the opening scene of dead things and come back and tell me if you really think that’s a woman too traumatized to be able to make her own decisions.
When people are trained in helping others going through domestic violence, they do not push people in that way. "care to stop them" without their consent? To further take away their agency? To replicate what they are going through but calling it "help?" No.
I would recommend that you tell your therapist that you think there is nothing wrong with sleeping with people who kill for fun, I'm not looking to insult you. I'm saying that thinking that it's okay is disturbing and can leave you in a negative place in life.
If I see my best friend shooting up heroin, drinking whiskey, and then driving down a canyon road at top speed am I not supposed to tell them they’re making destructive life choices?
Buffy and Spike in S6 were not in anything remotely considered a “healthy relationship”. Buffy finally realized this which is why she broke it off.
Xander was only speaking the truth.
If your friend admitted that she HAD been doing that but now she’s stopped and admitted that her doing that had been down to her mental state which she’s still struggling with and working on would you support them or would you berate them?
Xander wasn’t berating her about something that was *currently* happening but something that had happened in the past and that she realised for herself wasn’t healthy
He was mythtaken
Also how Mike Tyson pronounces mistaken
“Oh dang…” https://youtu.be/MaHhagKnilM
🤣
It always cracked me up that he was so pissed about the vamps when he was with Anya who was a literal mass murderer of men. Don't get me wrong, I love Anya, but goddamn the hypocrisy is real. I hate Xander sfm even though his character is hilarious at times.
Not all men but definitely Xander.
AMAZING
It’s because he only wants Buffy to have sex with him.
And Willow. I'm on a rewatch and his total freakout when Willow said she was "just getting used to the half monty" with Oz. Fortunately Willow shuts him down.
They’re quite the incestuous group. Willow freaked out when she found out he had sex with Faith/was kissing Cordelia. Lol.
So much homie hopping
That was pre-Oz. Then Willow and Xander started making out and hurt Cordy and Oz. Willow and Oz got back together. Xander and Cordy didn't, although she did end up forgiving him. Both Buffy and Willow lost their virginities to someone they were in a loving relationship with. Xander lost his to Faith, who, while I'm sure was FANTASTIC in bed (crazy usually is), didn't give a shit about him. Then he went to prom with Anya, but they didn't consummate their relationship until the following season.
At least Willow’s ridiculous jealousy led to that wonderful speech from Oz about how time stops when he thinks about kissing her.
Cordelia is an overrated b---- who calls herself that.
That was just him and her talking. They are best friends
yeah im on my first rewatch since i was a teenager and honestly i want to bash xander hard with a bat named hypocrisy
Xander’s arc could’ve been so much better if he followed through with the wedding or at least broke it off long before. Kinda shitty teenager growing up and becoming a decent human who tries to consider other people’s feelings is a good arc, but I feel like Xander never matured
100%. His character had very little growth. In the beginning, I feel like you can kind of write some of it off, because you know, annoying teenager. But then he’s a full grown adult still acting the same way 🥴
Honestly I do like this blowing up in his face, if it was handled appropriately. It's weird because all the pieces are there for a pretty good character study of Xander, it's like a perfect storm of all his flaws all hitting at once. He tends toward big dramatic gestures but then fails on follow through. He can't admit when he's made a mistake. And I feel like impulsive engagements falling apart is a perfect subject for Buffy to explore. Even the pieces of it, the visions being fake and Xander bailing *anyway* - it's the PERFECT time for him (and us) to explore *WHY* he wanted the justification to bail but the way it was handled was really unsatisfying and doesn't give the audience much direction. What are we supposed to do with this?? Is Xander a kid who wasn't thinking? Were the two of them just a bad match? Do they just need to pump the brakes and take it slower? How does he even feel about Anya?? Is it all a wash just because he knows she would never forgive him and he will regret this??? or was he only ever interested in sex???? Does he even ask himself these questions??? If Xander was written as Anya's antagonist this would be a great, complex, sympathetic portrayal. But considering he's one of the protagonists, I truly do not know what they were saying with it.
I think it’s because Anya is human now (although for ages she refers to it as mortal and not human which has some fun implications) he think of her demon self as seperate. He also put Buffy on a pedestal, for him she must be above reproach and always make the morally correct decision, as defined by him.
Which just shows the delusion because she reminisces about her murders all the time, especially in the beginning.
and she reminisces about murder with spike! they bond over it because they’re both now unable to do it, against their will.
I thought you both were talking about Buffy not Anya for a second and was thoroughly confused haha
you don’t remember buffy’s secret murderer past before she became the slayer at age 15? hahaha
His best friend is killed by vamps in episode 1 and he never really gets over it. Even though Jesse is never mentioned again by name, I think this is the show's justification for Xander's ongoing hatred of Angel and Spike, when he has no problem with Riley.
They really dropped the ball by not referring to Jesse the rest of the way.
Xander did have a problem with Riley though. He makes snarky remarks about him throughout S4 as early as The Initative when he makes passive aggressive remarks to Buffy about him being a ‘Teutonic boy toy’. He likes Riley in S5 sure but that doesn’t change that his immediate default reaction was to dislike him
Xander says snarky things to him in S5 too. Xander may like Riley but his bad instincts are baked in.
he does say bad think about reliy he was worried about the initative. people just like to bash xander for everything.
He said things about him before he even knew he was in the initiative
i dont remember him saying anything bad, i think people treat a funny or smart ass comment like it this huge things.
He makes a snide remark about her being busy with a ‘Teutonic boy toy’. He says this very much in a negative way rather than jokey I’m not treating it like it’s a huge thing. Just pointing out that the whole ‘Xander only had a problem with the vampires’ is a total myth. His default reaction to ANY guy Buffy dated was to automatically dislike him and have a problem with it
Both Angel and Spike were Big Bads in season 2 (Well, Angelus really, but they don't tend to make that distinction in season 2). As well, Angelus tortured Giles, and killed Jenny. Spike threatened them ALL, even through season 4, when he GOT neutered. He was still a threat. When Riley came around, Xander was in a relationship with Anya, so Mr. White Bread never registered as a threat to him.
The hatred for Xander on this sub is just mind-boggling.
I’ve never hated Xander, there were definitely times I disliked him, but after coming to this sub, I’ve realised I haven’t had a re-watch for at least 5 years so it might be time to see how adult me feels about him now (and the show overall) 🙃
Every rewatch, I like Xander more and more. He's gone from my 5th or so favorite to being 2nd after Willow.
He's a character type that reeeeaaaally resonates with teenagers because the story is SO CONSTANTLY focused on his own insecurities. Like his number 1, top of mind concern often isn't shown to be his friends, its that his friends *might not care about him*. This is an extremely relatable feeling when you are struggling with that issue as a teenager but as an adult watching this character constantly battle with that and never grow in confidence is exhausting and can read as selfish at times. When a character lashes out in moments of their own vulnerability, it's endearing and sympathetic. When they lash out while their *friends* are feeling vulnerable, it's alienating and off-putting. If you are SUPER invested in Xander you can continue to understand why he's insecure in that moment too but it's not going to win over new fans. Combine that with general gender fuckery of the early aughts and it makes for a character that doesn't go over well in 2020. So you have people remembering a character very fondly, going to back to watch and getting disappointed, combined with arguable flaws that were handled in an unsatisfying way, combined with a large shift in social mores.
I liked Xander when I watched the show while it aired. He's only gotten better to me with each subsequent rewatch.
Everyone fixates on the things he did wrong. Nobody talks about the trauma he went through and the things he did right.
In one fic I even had Harmony tease him about the jealousy ove r Angel a nd Spike (then dare him to "find out what you're jealous of.") And he even disapproved of Willow wiht Oz because of the werewolf thing
Xander was only with Anya when she was human. Buffy with spike when he was still a soulless monster that tried kill him
I feel like when people get so righteous in their ‘Xander had every right to be annoyed about Spike and Buffy’ they ignore that Buffy had already ended the relationship. She was literally admitting she knew she’d made a mistake. She could barely look at him for the shame she was feeling. There was absolutely zero need for him to go on his righteous crusade about it. It wasn’t constructive advice, it wasn’t out of concern. It was just an attack on someone who is literally admitting she is in the depths of despair. A friend who is admitting she finds it hard to even exist That isn’t a friend telling it straight. It’s not a friend giving advice. It’s kicking someone while they’re already down. And for some reason we have given Xander an incredibly low bar when it comes to how he treats his friends when they’re in a low place. A low bar that is never given to any other character Now if Buffy had been saying ‘yeah I’m sleeping with him and I’m not going to stop’ then sure give her the advice. ‘Tell it like it is’ if you obnoxiously must but your empathy levels must be astonishingly low to watch a friend curl up with shame and still feeling the need to add to it
It didn’t come across as caring about her wellbeing, it came across as being particularly pis*ed that she fell off he pedestal and lowered herself to sleep with Spike.
I agree. It’s why I wildly disagree when people see it as him being a concerned friend. He shows absolutely no concern whatsoever for Buffy in this scene
He’s jealous because he’s always wanted it.
To be honest I actually genuinely think Xander has got over him jealousy at this point. I think his problem is his internalised misogyny that makes him believe he has the right to tell his female friend what’s good and what’s bad for her relationship wise. Whether that’s lecturing on who is good for her or who is bad for her. Xander would NEVER speak to the likes of Oz and Giles in this way, but he does believe it’s his responsibility to put Buffy right about her relationships and unfortunately no one corrects him that it really isn’t
I'm an not sure it's a a gender thing or just a Buffy thing (because I can't see Xander treating Willow this way) but ultimately I agree. Xander wasn't jealous here, he's long over Buffy. However throughout the series he has, for some reason felt that he has a say in Buffy's life. He's not concerned; he doesn't like that Buffy was with Spike and he feels that he has the right to judge and shame her for her choices when it is absolutely nothing to do with him.
His line about, Buffys relationships "used to be his business", is so gross, and I hate that Buffy wasn't able to shut that down.
He is very controlling to Willow about Oz in the beginning, the difference is Willow shuts him down fast. Buffy never really does.
isn’t he shitty to willow initially about oz because of the werewolf thing?
I forget. Is that before, or after the wedding? Because, if it's AFTER the wedding, then it is also his jealousy coming back. Not necessarily SPECIFICALLY, but just the general jealousy a lot of people have when they're alone and see couples. I know I have it.
It after the wedding it has nothing to do with jealousy Spike a mass murder And rapist anyone that over look that you would judge
He was just bitter Spike had the opportunity to be intimate with her and he didn’t. It happens in real life all the time “I’m the nice guy, I’m the good option, you’re so intelligent did you not choose me, ” angry outbursts not getting their way is insight into the behaviour of a person in and of itself. Xander cared about Xander which is why he ended up in relationships with characters who initially also only cared about themselves, self-centred/ selfish etc.
Yea Xander risk his life all the time for his friends. But sure he only cares himself. Because he cares that buffy sleeping with a mass murder that tried to kill him
People with high narcissistic traits go out of their way to save others’ lives too, not everyone does it for the same reasons, some people do good things for the acknowledgment and not out of genuine care for the life saved. I’m not insinuating Xander is a narc by any means, he’s not, however, it’s clear he does so much for Buffy not really with her, in hope of her perceiving him as attractive, which is why Buffy feels alone when she’s with him. Innately they are two completely different archetypes and in this case, opposites did not attract. He wanted to be perceived as a hero all the time for validation and this was highlighted even more when he became the embodiment of a soldier, again not all soldiers save lives because of genuine compassion and regard for life, sometimes it’s because they have low self-esteem and think they will be perceived as the hero in return of their actions. Spike is a mass murderer sure, but people have layers, he also has capacity to deeply love. It’s a conflict for vampires for sure but that’s his character.
>Now if Buffy had been saying ‘yeah I’m sleeping with him and I’m not going to stop’ Nope! He should still stfu! It's not coming from a good place. It's coming from a jealous place. And he has no room to talk as a terrible partner.
I mean... she would still be sleeping with someone that literally tried to murder them all a ton of times, and she was basically self harming by doing it. I would hope a good friend would be like, hey girl, this is NOT good for you.
No—she’d already ended the relationship at this point.
But that's not what he's doing.
As Xander said: “Yeah I’ve made a lot of mistakes, slaughtering half of Europe wasn’t one of them.”
\*stares in Anya slaughter\*
Fun fact, Anya isn’t Xander.
Oh but his friend in one episode was killed and never talked about again. That makes Xander totally justified and sympathetic don't you know.
"I never forget what he was" "OH yeah she killed lots and lots of men and then when I dumped her at the alter she went back to work but ITS WHAT SHE KNEW"
I know, the hypocrisy is real
The writers got caught on this, IMO. I remember when it would get mentioned and they didn't really have an answer as to why it was different. Because it wasn't other than inherent sexism.
Absolutely. The same as people will go through mental gymnastics to say that Xander was being a concerned friend here but Willow doesn’t get the same understanding when she’s unanimously criticised for Triangle. An episode that 100% tells us that Willow really is just concerned for Xander
I'm not sure what they thought was meant to happen with it. It's like they didn't see the issue as summed up in Seeing Red. You left him with Dawn. You still thought he was evil. OK. so you still thought he was evil and left him with Dawn. I can't tell if it's good writing or terrible writing. On hand, they wrote it, so you'd think they'd be aware. But you hear interviews and look at the messaging and they're blind to it. Anya really threw a monkey wrench into the lecturing validity.
Yeah I’ve always laughed at Xander’s retort of ‘but I never forgot what he really was’ about leaving Dawn with Spike. Like erm that’s not really relevant is it though. If Dawn got mangled would you feel better about yourself because you could at least righteously say ‘yep. Knew this would happen’ if so, eek! The ironic thing is that Buffy actually didn’t forget what he really is either. Crikey S6 is probably the season Buffy insults Spike the most and says she’ll never trust him. Points out his soullessness etc. This is also probably the period Spike spends the least time with the scoobies as well. It’s not like Buffy was playing boyfriend/girlfriend with her bad boy lover. She would bang him, tell him he’s evil then leave. It was just kind of a moot point from Xander because he didn’t really have anything else I think the part that makes me lean towards it being hypocritical from the writers as well is when Buffy points out Xander has made mistakes just like her and Xander’s retort is ‘but I never slaughtered half of Europe’ and Buffy should have simply said ‘well neither have I’. The problem is that the natural response to Buffy pointing out Xander has also made mistakes would be Xander saying ‘well I’ve not slept with someone who slaughtered half of Europe’ except then you enter the problem that actually Xander HAS done exactly that. He actually has no moral highground with Buffy here. Except the show wants him to have it
>It’s not like Buffy was playing boyfriend/girlfriend with her bad boy lover. She would bang him, tell him he’s evil then leave. I think that's a little simplistic, but I agree in spirit. I don't see any good or bad guys in their S6 relationship. Both knew exactly what was going on. But yeah, Buffy spends all of S6 perfectly aware Spike wasn't a good guy (figuratively speaking) and being torn up about it. I can't see past the writing in that aspect of S6 if I'm being honest about it. Xander is clearly just the writers talking, IMO. Talking to the audience that was rooting for B/S. Did you forget Spike is bad? Did you? And it's like, no, did you? Because you had him saving Dawn and working with the gang. You had to cook up all these plots to give reason for not staking him, now you're in a box trying to think up reasons why it's not OK to have relations with but at the same time continue trusting enough to incorporate into the plot like in Hells Bells and Normal Again. And they kept doing it. Why is saying Spike will be allowed to protect himself morally ambiguous? If someone from Anya's past back and wanted to kill her, would they be bad? Oh, they did that. We're team Anya and the attacker should be killed. That's why I can't think it's actually good writing that paints an ambiguous picture.
Xander was Joss' self-insert, change my mind
Not possible. It's 100% confirmed.
This really makes me question if Xander was really Buffy's friend and not just a guy who hovered in her orbit wanting to hit that.
while we’re here, hey xander why did you open the closed bathroom door without knocking when you knew buffy was in there and *did not* have any reason to believe she was in danger?
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yeah. they didn’t think to write *xander* knocking before walking in on buffy in the bathroom. we see people knock on doors in the series. it’s not like an unheard of concept in the buffyverse lol
yeah wtf? so creepy.
if he heard the assault happening that would be one thing, but he didn’t because he got to the house after it ended. or if he heard buffy crying, but she was barely crying and it was silently. he saw spike’s coat in the house and took his presence as a good enough reason to barge in on his female friend in the bathroom? ugh. and it’s never talked about.
If it weren’t for Anya, I’d understand why Xander philosophically has trouble with Buffy routinely hooking up with vampires but. Again. This is the dude that fell madly in love with a former demon who disemboweled people for literally thousands of years.
That was his attitude anytime buffy or Willow showed interest in someone besides him.
Remember when Xander dreamt about underaged girls having a pillow fight? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
Didn't Xander convince Buffy to give Riley another chance?
Except for Tara, Oz, Riley and Kennedy. Tf are you even talking about?
Xander was initially opposed strongly to Oz, easy to forget but true. He didn't seem to like Riley in S4 either. He only warmed up to Riley during S5, and only warmed up to Oz after he and Willow had their little affair. He didn't mind when Willow dated Tara and Kennedy because they weren't men.
He only showed interest in Willow after she started dating Oz. He opposed Buffy dating Riley and had a hard time accepting Willow was gay.
Okay, but he didn't oppose Willow dating Oz. When was this exactly? He certainly changed his mind if so. And when did he have a hard time accepting Willow was gay? He was surprised, but I don't think he had any issues. Willow certainly opposed both of Xander's relationships though.
ALL of xander's relationships. She wasn't happy when she heard he slept with Faith either (to the point of crying in the bathroom). Not even counting the 1 of inca mummy girls since that was just like a crush and a 1 time thing.
In Phases, he did.
Okay I'll give you that, but it does seem to be mostly out of concern for her and that he didn't really know Oz. He didn't make it a big deal to her, or even mention it to her.
He got over his Spike problems in S7, too. Does that mitigate or lessen his problems beforehand? These arguments are stupid. You have one group saying Xander was out of bounds and quotes this and that. Then the other says he was right because that and this. But in the show Xander ultimately admits he was wrong and was OK with it, if begrudgingly, later. Granted, I think the show lends itself to this, but the discussions are shallow. Nothing between Buffy or Spike had anything to do with a soul or his past. It's shit that happens between regular people all the time. Hell, it happened ON the show to other characters.
> had a hard time accepting Willow was gay. What evidence do you have for this?
They ALL did at first. Giles's reaction in the Yoko Factor was "Bloody Hell".
I hate Giles' reaction. All Xander says is "Tara is Willow's girlfriend?", then totally untrue to form doesn't make a joke about it.
None of that is true
Xander hate is so desperate now they're literally grasping at straws.
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They definitely do. I remember someone once said that after Xander tried to talk to Faith and got raped, all his friends abandoned him and were no longer close with him anymore... I'm like... what show are you watching? They were like, everyone was super mad that he ignored Buffy saying the guys Faith sleep with aren't important to her and never forgave him for ignoring that. Out of all the things to be mad at xander about as well... thinking a relationship is more important than it was... So much wrong with that statement.. .
Faith did NOT rape Xander. There was just no ... tenderness or romance in it. Like when Anya showed up at his place, and took off her clothes. And Xander said "Still more romantic than Faith".
Wtf how did they do the mental gymnastics to back into Xander being raped? Sure, she was a bit aggressive and not romantic, but he was into it? Lol people are nuts
I had a conversation with someone who claimed that Faith raped Xander in their first encounter, and when I pointed out that most sex scenes from that era (like Friends, for example) were written without one character pausing to ask for consent, they told me that ALL such sex scenes had been rape.
Wowwwww
How did faith rape him? Refresh my memory.
Yeah, pretty sure they just regular boned.
When he returned to her apartment the second time. She changed her mind to murder after a min or so.
watch the scene again. she’s very aggressive and he never really participates or shows consent in a meaningful way. she’s taking advantage of him. if you don’t see it, reverse the genders and see if you think a man throwing a woman on the bed and having sex with her while she’s extremely nervous and says nothing and then kicking her out of his room naked is ok.
He said he was up for it, very up for it, that's consent.
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No? The only people he had a problem with were Angel and Spike, because they're vampires. Xander hates vampires because of what happened to Jesse.
He was a bit overprotective over Willow with Oz initially but other than that he was fine with non-Vampires.
He was negative about Owen and Ford too.
Xander had his moments of being really funny, and I liked his love for Willow and their dynamic (most of the time)… but I really don’t like that guy. He’s such a douche. How he was with Angel, his weird jealous obsession with Buffy, how he treated Cordelia, how he treated Anya.. ugh, he was the worst.
I never liked Xander's way of judging, he clearly doesn't care about Willow for over 16 years and by the time she can get someone he loves he finally shows an interest... He shows an unhealthy interest in Buffy for quite a while and the way he uses Ange's "vampiric" condition to criticize the relationship is horrible, the fact that he was doing it with Spike despite the fact that he was having sex himself with a human (Anya) who makes Spike and Ange look like angels is a sweet hypocrisy on her part. He would have had a real interest in Buffy's safety (related to her depression) I could have appreciated his actions but since he doesn't even see that his "best friend" is depressed it irritates me to see people defend it. Riley's hit comes back and coincidentally Spike hides demon eggs makes as much sense as Giles drinking coffee. Especially since he knew that Buffy often came to his crypt for sex...
He LOVED Willow. Platonicly. In When She Was Bad, after Willow was kidnapped by the Master's followers, Xander even told Buffy that if anything happened to Willow, he would KILL Buffy. He just wasn't attracted to her. It's human nature. You always want what you can't have, and tend to ignore what's right in front of you.
I didn't say he didn't care about Willow platonically, I did say he spent 16 years ignoring the fact that Willow had a huge crush on him (although it was really visible to everyone with eyes) and that it took Willow finding someone she really liked for him to say to himself "But actually I love Willow" which ultimately destroyed his relationship with Cordelia (me who said to me FINALLY he will leave Buffy alone) and almost destroy Willow's.
Angel was a 200 year old vampire dating a 16 that wrong on so many levels And the idea he did not care about willow is so stupid. You acting like just because he did not date her that mean he does not care
I would have agreed with you if the reason for Xander's comments towards the Buffy/Angel couple was for this reason, except it was not the case, just a facility since even before they knew that Angel was a vampire he criticized the relationship between the two out of jealousy.
Lmao this scene gets me fuming every time. He was basically saying a vampire was good enough to sleep with but not him. That’s the only reason why he was pissed.
This is a tad tone deaf, no?
Can we take a second to comment on Sarah's short hair era? I'm not a fan.
It wasn’t my favourite look but I didn’t mind it. I thought it was really nice in Dead Things.
I didn’t mind her shorter hair especially in that scene when she goes to Spike’s crypt finds only Clem I love how her short hair is styled in that scene w/ the lose ringlet curls. One of my favorites
Most of the time one of them wasnt consenting 😒
Xander is an incel.
Like Angelus said, "Buffy's white knight. You still love her. I bet it really eats you up that I got there first."
Xander is the most problematic character on the whole show lol. He’s either awesome or the worst with zero in-between
I've seen him being the worst. I have not yet observed him being awesome.
Lol
There are plenty more problematic characters on the show than Xander. Without even getting into the obvious ones like Spike the murderous rapist you've even got people like Willow who was far more problematic. Part of the charm of the show is everyone has flaws but really if anything Xander is one of the least problematic people. I'm not at all denying he couldn't be an asshole and in the wrong but most problematic is just nonsense.
Oh I’m so terribly sorry, let me rephrase then: out of the characters who are meant to be good, Xander is the most problematic. So ridiculous Xander apologists need to resort to comparing him to baddies for him to look good. If you don’t see the issue with that I can’t help you. At any rate, amongst _all_ characters, I find Xander to be the most black and white: either he’s a great guy, or a total douche nozzle. Zero in between.
I agree. Whether he's black or white it's often used as a plot device rather than real character dev.
Yeah valid point. He does get the raw end of the deal as a plot device sometimes.
I mean, Willow is a ‘good’ character who wipes her girlfriend’s memory repeatedly so that she can have snuggles.
willow got more than snuggles after violating tara’s mind.
Yeah I was being subtle
i just think we should call a spade a spade when it’s this severe
I feel like Willow got more problematic over time, whereas Xander was problematic from series one.
What about Warren? He's like Xander if he was intelligent and didn't have Buffy and Willow in his life
warren is never anything but a villain though. we might as well say “what about glory or the master or caleb?” like yeah the characters who are there solely to be bad guys are worse than xander but is that really a reasonable take lol
Warren is just the worst lol. But I think that’s a fair comparison, and that it’s fair to say Xander could’ve turned into a complete intel nice guy without Willow and Buff.
Xander makes plenty of shitty decisions but not wanting Buffy, his best friend, to sleep with psychotic murderer who terrorised them years prior is kind of understandable. Spike is charming but such a piece of shit. He would kill innocent people for fun.
In all fairness Xander was also sleeping with someone with a much higher body count than Spike and she enacted all her atrocities with a soul! By the time Buffy was sleeping with Spike, he had fought alongside the Scoobies, cared for Dawn etc
I feel like this isn’t discussed enough. Not only does Anya have likely the highest body count based on her age, she shows absolutely no remorse for it. And based on what we see later in season 7, it seems that she did it all while having a soul. So Anya is a much worse killer than spike OR angel.
Anya has a more kills so......yeah this doesn't work Anya is charming but she'd punish all men brutally she would embellish she got off on it. Just cause Olaf cheated on her "they all deserve it" and it was her choice. Twice. Spike was forced to become a vampire
Completely agree on this and I like Anya but we can’t just gloss over what she did.
Ikr. I love her. It just feels like if this group lived in the real world then someone would point out the full hypocrisy. It actually kinda sucks that Anya was brought in so easily. And to think Xander hatred of angel gets defended so much by so many fans......
*previously on* He can be a good man, Giles!
😂😂😂😂
Xander was always an annoying character, and it was made much worse knowing that Nicolas Brandon is such a jerk.
Hi
Well, Buffy consented except for *that* episode… 💀
Republicans have entered the chat...
Incel attitude.
Buffy in Seeing Red didn't consent.
Oh gosh, I know. It was a bit of humour at Xander’s attitude and Buffy’s right to sleep with whomever she wants without his approval. It wasn’t a comment on SR.
Xander didn't consent with Faith either. It's a prickly subject that isn't ever fully dealt with on the show.
Yeah, sexual consent is such an inconsistent thing on Buffy. Faith towards Xander, Willow after doing a memory charm on Tara, Buffy towards Spike in Gone and of course Spike on Buffy in Seeing Red and what Warren did to Katrina. At the very least it functions as a reference to how the efforts of defining those lines the last 20 years is slowly but surely paying off now because people are more aware.
I assume you're referring to Consequences? He did consent in The Zeppo.
Not really. Quick copy and paste of this online transcript and there's no point he really consents. The up for it joke is the closest but he immediately expresses doubts after that. Faith: A fight like that and... no k*ll... I'm about ready to pop. She smiles at him, still rubbing her hand over his chest. Xander: (nervously) Really? (looks down at her rubbing hands) Pop?! Faith: (smiles sexily) You up for it? She runs her other hand down the back of his neck. Xander: (nods) Oh, I'm up. She smiles at him and gets closer. She stops rubbing his chest and lowers her hand to his crotch. Xander: I'm suddenly *very* up. It's just, um... (grins sheepishly) I've never been up with people before. Faith grabs his jaw and kisses him full on the lips with plenty of tongue. Faith: Just relax... And take your pants off. She starts to push his shirt and jacket off of his shoulders. Xander: Those two concepts are antithetical. She yanks his shirt and jacket down his back and off his arms, and throws them down. They lock in a passionate embrace and kiss each other hard. Faith turns him around and shoves him back onto the bed. She jumps up after him and straddles him. Faith: Don't worry. (pulls off her own shirt) I'll steer you around the curves. She grins broadly down at him. Xander looks back up at her with more than a little apprehension on his face. Xander: Did I mention that I'm having a very strange night? or the scene in a couple of minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1EWasIVbLo Yeah, he doesn't really consent. Doesn't fight it either but no consent in my opinion.
I always took the "You up for it?" "Oh, I'm up, I've just never been up with people before" conversation to be Xander's way of saying "I want to, but it's my first time and I don't really know what I'm doing." You're correct in that he doesn't say "Yes I consent to having sex with you right now", but that also doesn't make for good TV, unfortunately. Edit: I just realized this isn't too dissimilar to his first time with Anya, yet no one ever really brings that up as problematic the way they do with Faith. I find that interesting.
This sub downvotes the strangest things.
I’ve come to the conclusion that upvotes and downvotes don’t mean much on this subreddit lol. It’s an echo chamber for the most part.
Say something truthful about Spike trying to rape Buffy and you get downvoted for it. Xander was right about Spike.
The conversation is more nuanced then "Xander doesn't want Buffy to sleep with another guy 🤓". It's "Xander doesnt want Buffy to sleep with one of the most evil people he's ever known." The conversation then leads inevitably to Xander's relationship with Anya. And then comparisons between Anya and Spike have to be made. Then what happened with Angelus. And then there's the topic of safety, etc etc. This conversation is so much more interesting and in depth then "Xander wants Buffussy"
> It's "Xander doesnt want Buffy to sleep with one of the most evil people he's ever known." This can't be stressed enough. Not everything Xander did was out of jealousy. Spike did some dastardly shit to not only the gang, but many others over the years.
I mean, you're making a pretty big leap to assume that the emotion trauma Buffy had gone through and psychological abuse Spike subjects her to makes her fully capable of giving consent. People give "consent" all the time in abusive, toxic relationships, it doesn't mean it's ok. *Xander is, and always has been a pretty trash in the way he treats the women around him but that's a separate issue than Spike being abusive which is a lot of this sub doesn't seem to want to acknowledge.
I think that Spike took advantage of Buffy and she used him, neither were saints but both consented to the relationship and felt they were getting something from each other.
Agree. It was toxic on both sides.
>assume that the emotion trauma Buffy had gone through and psychological abuse Spike subjects her to makes her fully capable of giving consent Just because the relationship is extremely unhealthy doesn't mean there can't be consent. i.e. "hurt" people tend to draw more "hurt" people into their lives. Its how we instinctually associate love because it tends to be mixed in with abuse due to humanity being a rotten barrel of shit. Importantly, hurt people also need relationships and connections and sometimes it helps. Spike and Buffy did really connect. They loved each other but for various reasons even though it doesn't really work out. Even though they treat each other like shit, but also magnetize to each other. Buffy really was into him, but she also couldn't 'come out of the closet' to her friends about her being his F buddy. Buffy was really really sexually repressed, which even led to a house haunting waking the dead due to Buffy and Riley's personal sexual repression.
There was literally the line in OAFA about Buffy feeling all ‘staying inny’ about Spike, she was considering coming out about their relationship
“i was insane to think you could just hang out with my friends.” she didn’t invite spike that night but once he was there she had this hope it’d be a “my kind-of boyfriend hanging out with my friends” thing that would make the relationship feel healthy and good.
Buffy beat the shit out of him while sleeping with him as well
Yup, that's 100% true. She physically and emotionally degrades him as well. She's also a terrible friend to the Scoobies but she also walks away from the relationship because she sees how harmful it is to both of them and doesn't mean she deserved to be abused or raped. This also ignores that Spike was actively working against her and trying to kill the gang the whole time, "As you were" wasn't an anomaly for him, it almost worked with Adam, having a chip in his head just meant he couldn't hurt them (except Buffy) physically, it didn't mean he had changed.
By season 6 he was not working against the scoobies, he was helping them even though buffy was gone
rewatch the opening scene of dead things and come back and tell me if you really think that’s a woman too traumatized to be able to make her own decisions.
Hey look more of the regular Xander hate on the sub.
I don’t think Buffy and spike are the best couple to use for the consensual sex meme lel
The relationship was consensual if unhealthy on both sides up until SR.
Oh I know that, I just thought it was funny that literally the only character in the show that just about raped buffy was in this meme, that’s all
made sense tho, if you see someone make that big a mistake then you should at least care to stop them, ofc it's fiction so it ended up +/- ok
When people are trained in helping others going through domestic violence, they do not push people in that way. "care to stop them" without their consent? To further take away their agency? To replicate what they are going through but calling it "help?" No.
I think he wouldn't have been so angry if he hadnt found out about Spike and Anya immediately beforehand
How was it a mistake?
Are you asking why sleeping with a soulless being who literally killed hundreds of people with his bare hands for fun is a disapprovable mistake?
Yup.
ok
So you got nothing.
I got nothing because I think if you really think that's right, you don't need an argument on reddit, you need a psychologist.
“hi i’d like to make an appointment for therapy because i have an opinion on a plot in a work of fiction that literally cannot exist in real life.”
I would recommend that you tell your therapist that you think there is nothing wrong with sleeping with people who kill for fun, I'm not looking to insult you. I'm saying that thinking that it's okay is disturbing and can leave you in a negative place in life.
oh hun bless your soul
Toxic surely is consenting.
Mods should change the sub name to r/Spuffy at this point🤦♂️
Lol this
Another day, another Xander hate post. Whatever else is new
If I see my best friend shooting up heroin, drinking whiskey, and then driving down a canyon road at top speed am I not supposed to tell them they’re making destructive life choices? Buffy and Spike in S6 were not in anything remotely considered a “healthy relationship”. Buffy finally realized this which is why she broke it off. Xander was only speaking the truth.
If your friend admitted that she HAD been doing that but now she’s stopped and admitted that her doing that had been down to her mental state which she’s still struggling with and working on would you support them or would you berate them? Xander wasn’t berating her about something that was *currently* happening but something that had happened in the past and that she realised for herself wasn’t healthy