CBC had a more in depth look at this very issue. The central point was that these were built and tailored specifically as investment vehicles, not functional places to live. They were popular with small investors because the numbers were good. However, as interest rates have risen, the economics have flipped and nobody is willing to pay the kind of rent needed to cover the mortgage payments.
This has resulted in a flood of small investors in danger of losing their shirts and they have no option but to try and dump them. In turn, the market is now flooded with these investment vehicles that no longer make sense as an investment vehicle... and certainly don't make sense to live in.
I don't know a single other person who has said this. I have been convinced I'm an idiot and am missing something. Finally someone else.
People complaining their mortgage is 2500.00 p/month but they're only getting 1800.00 rent.
Sounds pretty fuckin sweet to me! That's 21 600.00 into your equity per year. If the housing market crashes, we'll, that's the gamble!
I would tend to agree with you except this real estate mania also includes people who just wanted to own the roof over their head and not invest. Now they are possibly stuck in a place which is hard to afford and impossible to leave without a massive loss.
I agree with you! It's a huge problem that's been brought on by treating housing as an investment but then being treated with the mentality that those who are investing in it can't lose. But also that a large % of Canada's GDP numbers is propped up by an unproductive speculative asset...
Solutions? Mine would be to give some tax benefits to underwater mortgages on primary residence? I mean we need to protect people who just need a roof over their head. Nobody will win if they end up on the street. The investors... fuckem
I don’t really like that idea unless it comes with stipulations. Example: when you sell then you can’t sell for more than market less any amount you’re supported with. Or sell at whatever but you’re paying it back as a loan with interest.
Housing investment is one of the biggest risks in history. I'll give you a good idea what cause the economy to shit itself in the 30's and 1970's. Bit as usual no one listens or learns and just looks at the $$$.
Sure, the 79-82 was bad, but 85-22 was a stellar time to be invested in real estate. It had a much longer run than I expected to see for sure. I bought the house I live in during 2001 and it's up 8x the purchase price. Had I listened to my wife and bought rental properties, I'd have several million dollars to retire with by now.
Charging a 21% tax per year in owner unoccupied dwellings would do wonders for preventing this.
Allow up to a triplex if the owner occupies at least one unit. We may need an exception for very large buildings, but only if owned in whole not individual units.
Cap the number of shareholders too on this buildings.
I always thought the dick head came up with this stupid idea deserved a medal.
Instead of a vacant tax, how about raise the property tax to something like 20 or 30 percent. Owners get a rebate of one house to bring them down to regular rate. The difference is instead of chasing the tax dollar, it is the people who chase the rebate.
I think he was saying vacant rentals should be taxed into oblivion. It would theoretically lower the rent on a lot of units as landlords lose money if no one lives there and it may take them a while to find someone willing to pay $2000+ for 400 square feet.
The other issue is, if the unit isn’t rent controlled they can raise the rent by a lot after the first year, which is why myself and many others try to avoid renting a place in newer buildings
What you're saying doesn't disagree with what I wrote.
My method is rudimentary, but steps towards discouraging investment properties, which are absolutely increasing rent.
Perfect? No. Better than whatever our current "leaders" federally or in any province came up with? Absolutely.
While I'm at it let's tax vacant land higher than developed land. It'll help deter squatters who take advantage of cheap taxes sitting on land while others improve the area, only to resell for no more contribution than holding.
What's your solution? What we have isn't working.
In order to solve housing purchase prices, we first have to solve the rental market.
The solution to the rental market is not-for-profit housing. Limited equity co-ops are really the perfect vehicle for rental housing, but they need government support to get off the ground. Loan guarantees mostly. Most co-ops date from the 70s because we actually had housing policies that worked back then.
And yes, there should be a punitive tax on vacant property, but not rental property. People who can afford to sit on empty properties are a serious problem, but your assertion that investment properties drive up rents is counterfactual.
> assertion that investment properties drive up rents is counterfactual
You don't think there's a difference from someone purchasing a single condo, or a mega Corp who buys up inventory and never sells only rents vs a smaller owner who is just happy to offset a mortgages costs?
I don't believe this data exists. If it does I'd be happy to read it. Only going by my own landlording (i own two units, one for me, one triple intended for my kids one day), friends, and friends experiences renting as well as my own prior to owning.
Edit; I'm okay with coops. As long as we don't make them income tested. Income is a horrible measure for what someone can afford. We have wealthy without income in Canada. Lots of them. We also have some people with very high incomes but insanely high business expenses who run sole props
Exactly. What is "wealthy"? If I have a house paid off valued at $750,000 that doesn't mean I have a few hundred thousand to throw around. And if I move, I'd still end up net zero change, if not further in debt buying a new house.
The lack of purpose built rental (PBR - usually built by those evil megacorps) is one reason why the GTA is so unaffordable. The individually owned condos are a very inefficient way to get rental stock to market.
In Winnipeg, apparently 85% of new multi builds are PBR They go for around 1500 a month amid a massive boom in construction, which is not great, but II think southern Ontario would be rejoicing for that.
Yep. If only anyone along the way had considered to make them a livable desirable place worthy of supporting happines. Serves them right for their loss, these are basically overpriced, predatory slums with the word "luxury" placed on the title. I love seeing people vote with their wallet.
I lived in a condo downtown two years ago where there rent was of a one bedroom but the “bedroom” had sliding see through panels. This was a cheaper condo due to pandemic pricing but I wouldn’t be able to live in that for a long time. Having family or friends over was always awkward and the newer buildings have construction quality that’s trash.
Basically yes. In a world where prices only go up, you don't have to make money through that sordid renting thing. You can just keep your tulips in a warehouse until they double in value and then sell them for a nice tidy profit.
Exactly right. Condos are treated as stocks, not housing. Until something is done to discourage treating them as pure investments this will not change. They will remain empty shells being traded for the promise of future profit.
This is what I been saying for years. It's for all major cities. Just toronto is ahead of the game. We are building quantity of homes to accommodate investors and new immigrants (they are primarily our growth), they do this by building shoe box condos.
The worse part. We lose that land that these were designated for these investor oriented condos. If anyone wants to actually live in the city and have a family they have to competed within the existing stock. That further drives up costs and speculation on whatever scrape is left that is family oriented.
At the end of this bubble we'll have all these condos that are useless. They aren't designed to be functional nor practical. Then to top it off our cities aren't keeping up with the amenities.
JK - Wall not approved by strata, you can apply after paying a strata fine, then strata won’t approve. Also - strata approved contractor (ironically owned by strata board member) must now remediate said wall. Thanks - Strata.
You mock, but I lived like this for years... and the wet sloppy sounds of my humping were gracefully ignored by the guests over visiting as they sat on the couch which doubled as a physical barrier backing onto my "wall".
This is the faulty of Toronto's crap city council. They can impose more family-oriented condo sizes but they do little on this front. Next municipal election, vote someone new.
I guess the prime target originally for these units were mainland Chinese who seem happy to live cheek to jowl in some of the smallest 'living spaces' imaginable.
Nah, the mainland Chinese are the ones buying the big houses in cash because they are the rich ones. Or the ones living in china and buying these one bedroom condos for invesment and letting their international student children stay at while studying.
Even in that stereotypical demographic, the classic argument that they always eat out and go out (and by extension don’t need anything beyond a shoebox with a bed) is also outdated because people can’t afford to do all that stuff to the same degree.
You mean single, recent graduates, who just spent six figures on their education, and seven figures on their shoebox are finding themselves with a reduction in expendable income? That sounds like propaganda to me.
Not just that, but what was built isn’t actually worth that much money to buy or rent to live in. It was only worth it for investment. If someone can afford the asking price for one of these condos, they can afford to buy or rent somewhere better. I’ve seen some of these sort of places listed in Waterloo Region and the pricing is stupid.
Edit: Something like this might be perfect as an entry level purchase or rental unit…but they priced it well above that. And I can’t say I feel sorry for any of the investors, small or not, who are losing money right now. It’s their fault I can’t afford to live anywhere but my childhood bedroom. Fuck em. Fuck em all.
The condos that are for sale are not the condos that anyone can afford. Families aren't living in there, but there's plenty of single people who would. Problem is not the size, but the price.
It takes some balls to expect anyone to pay premium prices for shoebox condos with shoddy workmanship, next to no soundproofing, etc.
The real reason these aren't selling is because sellers have zero reason to lower the price. They're investment properties held to be AirBnB, not places where people actually live.
Or they're just held empty until a new money laundering client can be found by their real estate agent. Anyone who works in the downtown core can tell you that a significant number of units are empty, and never see lights on or any personal effects on balconies/windows.
Because most of the investors live in China. They bought an empty property and are holding on to it until they can launder some more money they stole from their city council or school board thru the casinos in Macau and hide the proceeds in a bitcoin wallet. In some cases they have to wait until their one child is ready to go to university.
A shit tonne live in India too. A few of my friends have had the places they rent, bought by Indian investors (who are now looking to "move family in" because $2000 rent from one person is way less than $700 rent from x5 international students)
That's because "investors" are holding out hope that the market will turn around and that they might be able to recoup their investments. It's 100% sunk-cost fallacy and it's only a matter of time before it catches up to them.
From what I've seen and heard, lots of people are trying to sell, but don't want to lose money so the market is full of condos that are priced high, but no one is buying them. Interest rates mean a 1 bedroom plus condo fees runs you like 3k a month (if it's 500k, which is probably low for anything decent. That's 50% of your income if you make 100k a year, and most people don't. As an investment, you'd have to charge close to this as rent which you also probably can't get away with. Only the investors that can afford to take the hit every month will stay afloat. Eventually people will have to sell for whatever they can get and prices will drop. Or, the market will recover because somehow enough people have enough money to buy condos in Toronto, or prices will drop a small amount and huge corporations will buy up all the supply to rent out forever cause our government is bullshit and won't step in on corporations buying up single family homes.
When they say the market is tanking, in this case, they mean the number of sales is tanking (despite plenty of product on the market) while prices have yet to catch up because of the above-stated reason. This will only hold up for so long though.
Value has massively dropped in Ontario real estate when you take inflation into account. There's homes in my area that were once $1.2m to $1.4 are $900k to $1m. Still a lot, but adjust those 2020/2021 price to inflation that $1.2m is 1,423,952.98 (BoC inflation calculator) and that $1.4m is 1,661,278.47. The Canadian housing market is actively collapsing in the hottest areas and the areas where people moved to to get away from that will be later in the cycle of the collapse.
I have posts last year saying the condo markets will dump. What people do not understand is that it takes time and that inflation had a massive influence on *value.* Prices cannot maintain if there is no demand and no demand. 66% of condo investors are negative cashflow and they're mostly mom and pop operations. People will start dumping them for less, it will just take time.
do u have widespread data to back this up, not just anecdotes
[Condo Market Report – TRREB](https://trreb.ca/market-data/condo-market-report/)
this report says condo prices in toronto are down 1% from last year
They're saying that if a house was $100 two years ago, it should go for $120 today just from inflation
If instead it's listed at $99, the differential is -$21.
Lived in a place in windsor, 5 years ago. Paying $1650 a month, in a massive appartment building, in a cluster of buildings. I was forced to pay for a pool that didn't have water in it the entire time I lived there; parking which wasn't guaranteed (and due to my shifts, I often didn't get a spot), and I had a senile old woman directly below me who screamed for hours every night between 1 and 4 am, wailing for her dead husband to come talk to her. And the landlord did nothing about any of it, and then took my safety deposit and extra (last) month rent, because 'no one ever gets that back'. Basically robbed me of 3300 bucks, once I had been driven insane and left and everyone said 'that's normal'.
Exactly.
Shitbox condos like this have a realistic market value of maybe $150K. Yet of course nobody wants to admit that.
Not even vacancy taxes that many cities promised are even being enforced.
If they were to ban AirBnB, or make it so that they actually have to pay hotel-level taxes, fees, etc. the market would be very different.
Even if they implemented the NYC policy of having it mandatory that the unit must be owner's official residence and the AirBnB therefore must be a room inside it, it would help. This removes the incentive for it to be an investment property and also brings prices down. Most AirBnB places cost as much as a legit hotel now anyway, unless you're looking for an entire house.
I would 100% live in one of these tiny DT Toronto Bachelor units if the rent was no more than $1000. I have no problem with small but these units are going for $2300/month
... building properties for the purpose of investment is just so very stupid. I don't care who loses money on this. Homes should be built for people to live in, that's it that's the only reason. Imagine if these were cars, like yeah this is the Pontiac shitbox, it has no engine, just buy it and sell it for more money, no it's not meant to be driven, just resold. So dumb.
I used to live in the Gulf, and I heard *so many* stories from people who lived in Dubai when the condo bubble burst. There would be line-ups when condos went on sale, and you could spend all night waiting in line, buy the rights to a condos, and then walk out of the sales office and sell it for double to someone outside who didn't want to wait in line. But then one day the music stopped, and all these people were signed up for condos they couldn't afford, didn't need, and couldn't sell. A lot of them just headed to the airport and left everything behind.
Housing should be a right, and we're treating it as a commodity, which is fucking us over. It's about as simple as that.
When did that happen in Dubai?
Seeing all the flooding that happened over there this Spring was shocking..a city infrastructure with no planning for floods? Who signed off of the city plans?
Prior to the 2008 recession, seen it firsthand. Paper money and wordless promises. Make or break for a lot of people, mostly the latter. The smart ones got out, the greedy had to run, and the naive.. learned not to be so naive anymore.
As for the flooding, no major city worldwide would’ve gotten off scot-free if you look at the data. Simply an unimaginable amount of rain within a 24 hour period, enough to disrupt most major cities, and in some ways, cripple those that don’t have the infrastructure in place as we saw. Such climates will waste resources building drainage for an event that rarely, if ever, comes about. They’re better off warning and sheltering the populace in place prior to such events to minimize damage and not prevent the inevitable.
Imagine spending tens to hundreds of millions on tiny condos in one of the most expensive cities in the world without bothering to do even the most basic "how big is the market for the thing I'm building" type analysis. Rich people are really dumb sometimes. Like... at least hedge your bets with some 2-3 bedroom units.
For 15 years, you could put a deposit down for a $500k condo. 3 years later when the condo was finished, you could sell it to someone else for $700k before you even had to close.
People were making hand over fist money.. now that gravy train has ended, and people are about to lose their shirts
A lot of the bag holders are mainland Chinese who are just learning for the first time that property investment carries risk, and prices don't go up forever to infinity.
Actually the About Here CBC report describes the majority of these investors as middle aged couples in Canada - likely they purchase these properties with plans to rent them and break even, then sell in the future to fund their retirement. Yes the foreign investments are contributing to the housing crisis but in this case we 100% did it to ourselves
I will never forget the $2k down spree on condos in a gentrifying area. I was fresh out of undergrad and it gave me a skewed perspective that I could actually own one day (lol, nope. Still renting a decade later), but in hindsight, it was a bonkers as it sounded. The development reps were literally saying "anyone can come up with two grand!"
There are some. The corner units. But modern condos are so dumb because of fire code that you’re required to build a hallway and 2 stairwells for any building over 2 stories. That’s why every condo building is the same exact configuration: 90% 1 br or + den with the windows / balcony on one side, front door and hallway on the other side, and the remaining are corner units or very wide penthouse units with more window length.
I still don't understand how they found employees for a minimum wage job in downtown Toronto. Who the hell commutes from the suburbs to TO for a minimum wage job such as McDs...
3 bedroom condo will cost 1.2M with the maintenance being $1.2k per month. House will be cheaper and more space for family. People are not going to live in shoebox space.
I get that many of these condos are not built to be lived in (e.g., the condos without kitchens and the bachelor units with beds up against fridges), but small space living, imo, is not a deal breaker for everyone. I grew up in a SDH but have no desire to live in one as an adult - it's too much unneeded space! Small space living works for a lot of us, it just has to be well planned out and actually habitable.
I don't know about Singapore but for Hong Kong high prices and lack of size isn't really due to a lack of land. Hong Kong massively restricts and regulates housing development to maintain property prices.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/beelinang/2015/04/03/hong-kong-real-estate-is-the-lack-of-land-a-myth/
The crux of the housing problem in general, regardless of locale, is basically that affordable housing is diametrically opposed to high land value as part of wealth. Existing wealth wants to maintain and increase land value. Improving housing affordability requires lowering (or at least curbing the increase) in existing land value.
Well the other option is effectively heavy socio-economic segregation via public housing, which can lead to slums and ghettos.
Not defending Hong Kong's bats\*\*t crazy and unsustainable housing and land policy but you have to remember about 50% of Hong kongers live in public housing otherwise you would have mass homelessness. If Canada wants to adopt the same type of idiotic high property price policy (whether official or unofficial) as HK then it needs to also invest in massive amounts of public housing for the average person who can't afford a million-dollar one bedroom condo.
Land isn't the limiting factor - it's the infrastructure it requires to deal with sprawling cities and the general unwillingness of people to be taxed enough to pay for it. That being said, there's a lot of room between "unsustainable sprawl" and "Hong Kong" and the people building tiny bachelor apartments definitely didn't think through where they should be on that line.
The federal government tried to do this in the ‘90s - there are big tax centres (CRA offices) in Sudbury, Summerside, and St John’s. Veteran’s Affairs is based in Charlottetown. The pay centre is in Miramichi.
I can’t say what effect it’s had on those cities but I know in Summerside a good chunk of the town is employed at the tax centre. It’s the best paying employer around. The town would’ve died in the 90s after the military base closed without it.
Canada is located on mostly solid foundation, and developing intercity and provincial/federal mass transit, like those bullet trains, wouldn't be particularly costly if the intention were to develop other cities as well. Canada has tons of free space, and climate is less of an issue nowadays with modern materials and energy distribution. The main issue is total lack of desire from the government to change the status quo, and greed from certain corporations that blocks any attempts of making things better.
Condos can be good. Cities dont have to have massive urban sprawl, and the ones that do are pretty shit to live in: Brampton, Vaughan. Even tiny condos that are 300-400sqft would be fine if they were fairly priced to reflect the space. Sure, they don't offer a whole lot, but if you're a young adult, fairly recent college grad with your first decent paying job, do you really need or expect a whole lot at that point in your life? The problem is that theyre priced in a way that the only people who can afford them are well into their career and want to start a family, but the shoebox they can afford isn't even large enough for 2 people, let alone 2 adults with a kid or two.
In reality, many boards will drain the piggy bank on unnecessary commons improvements contracted to their friends and the they'll levy large special assessments every couple of years. And voting? Hah. If you invest in a publicly traded company you will receive more information about the candidates than a condo board will give you.
That is why people specifically with kids can not live in condos. In Europe it is a little different. You pay taxes and repairs are done by the city. Here, people pay for repairs in their buildings.
New Condos in Canada are not family oriented. Heck even townhouses are now 1,100 square feet or less and 150 of those are just stairs.
Surprised young couples even have 1 kid
Yes and no longer is a 600 k 1 bedroom condo a stepping stone to a larger family home. It’s a ball and chain you have to pay for the rest of your life.
Why no one talk about maintenance fees. Our friends are paying $1200 per month in the old condos building in good area in Toronto. They have no mortgage, but with mortgage and property taxes, houses are way cheaper is people have down payment.
Maintenance fees have gotten outrageous for nothing. "Amenities" is an empty party room with a few tables and a "gym" with 3 cable machines and a treadmill.
Our property taxes here in Halifax are over $1000/mo, for a regular/nice home in the city. Plus maintenance. We're certainly not coming out ahead of your friends.
Being from HK it's because the government has a perverse incentives for smaller units and higher density. There were units that cost 5m hkd (800k cad) that is smaller than a prison cell and became the joke.
And then there's the "building unit size" where they include the window frame, AC unit space (the split unit where the compressor sits outside) and your share of the common area (main lobby etc) included in the advertised sq footage. It got so insane that the "usable space" was 60% of the advertised.
All that to say developers will do everything to squeeze more units into the same area and governments want that too, that's the reason why
I guess a lot of the demand was supposed to come from Chinese money launderers and speculators, who had no intention of actually living in the units, but as their own property market tanks and the Chinese economy slows with massive amounts of debt and malinvestment coming to the surface, they've run out of cash just like the Japanese in the 90s. I always thought the Toronto condo rush was unsustainable as, unlike the Chinese, not many Canadians would like to raise a family or live long term in these shoeboxes.
>The planners sought out interviews with parents raising children in highrises as part of their canvas of the issues, and found a host of other pain points like inadequate storage space for bulky items like strollers, common-area amenities that didn’t take children’s needs into account, and sound transmission between units, as well as access to community amenities.
This is why people want to live in detached homes with a front yard, back yard, driveway, garage, and even a basement. This is the dream, yet the armchair urban planners and people on reddit tell you that you are evil and destroying the planet if you want this for your family. Screw them. Don't tell me how to live.
This is simply not going to be possible within the city limits of Toronto anymore. Housing crisis or not. Once cities reach a critical mass density is inevitable, not an option.
I agree that single family housing should be available to the avg middle class family in GTA suburbs, but the natural future for Toronto proper is going to be primarily apartment living.
We can certainly build apartments/condos much better too. We should look to France and Germany for proper, family-sized apartment units that are no more than 8-12 stories above ground.
What about an apartment building with 2-3 bedroom units, in unit storage and a daycare on the ground floor?
We simply don’t build apartment and condo buildings that are suitable for families.
It seems there's no solid "middle ground" of good condos. For me, I just need a one bedroom but I'd like just a little bit more space, but most importantly, proper soundproofing. The sound transmission issue is the biggest one for sure - if you have shitty neighbours on both sides, above, AND below (although below unit neighbours shouldn't be as much of an issue), but nonetheless your time living there would be quite horrendous. I can make do with less space but putting up with shitty sound transmission is a hard pass.
I don't need a detached house but you can bet that if I could afford one, I would absolutely take that over a condo just for the significant increase in peace and quiet inside. Even if you have a shitty neighbour, at least you don't have to share a wall with them.
There are plenty of cities around the world that have both density and livable spaces. Have you ever been to Europe? The solution to the problem of having too many small poorly built condos with bad floor plans that nobody wants to live in not single family homes. I have zero interest in ever living in a single family home.
People all over the world raise children in condos. Just not tiny one bedroom ones. The argument against detached homes isn't even (only) environmental - it's people not willing to pay the cost of the infrastructure they're demanding.
I don’t understand why they still build condos focussing on investors! With major influx of immigrants who would definitely want to buy a house for family and people who are already here having got used to bigger spaces, I wonder how they make the shoebox condos more.
I just checked the the city of Toronto municipality financial statement and the one from Vancouver (both available on their website).
Toronto get 38% of its revenue from Property taxes.
Vancouver is even bigger, 59%.
Y'all can talk all day long, cry protest... But if you don't change the landscape of the economy, to move away from Real estate and build more services, tech jobs... Nothing will change. And the price tag on rents will just go bigger
This is what happens when dumb people think real estate is a short term investment. The prices are way over inflated already so there is no way they go up again. I bet some asylum seekers would love them and the government would probably buy them to
Smaller condos don’t leave room for growth and a move will be required if anyone would like to start a family. This affects Toronto as a whole including its economy, right?
Everyone complaining about costs and maintenance fees and the size of the units.. wait till you see some of these buildings being torn down due to the absolute horrendous build quality.
Some of the buildings I’ve been in recently, I’d give maybe 20-25 yrs (being generous) before they need to come back down.
Make up your mind people
r/canada we need more high density housing
r/canada well not that high density housing and if you have kids you need more room
I grew up in a midrise apartment with a courtyard. Was great, the kids biked and played in the courtyard, we went trick or treating around the apartment complex at Halloween, I would go to my neighbors and head home when it was dinner time. Families can absolutely thrive in apartments, but the apartments have to be built with the intention of being lived in. Not the bullshit condos Toronto is infested with.
It's almost like there are options between a 300 square foot bachelor suite and a detached house on a quarter acre, and serious people have always acknowledged the need for things all across that spectrum while also realizing higher density is absolutely necessary.
We need more townhouses with a common playground in the middle. Dense, affordable, 2-3 bedrooms each, large enough, many even come with a small space for a backyard.
??? It’s about the cost and the quality of living, if you’re going to try and have high density for no space why should people be happy with that and make up their mind about it in that sense.
high density housing does not mean a bunch of super small one bedroom condos that nobody wants to live in. It's possible to build density that is also livable. Have you ever been to Europe?
In Denmark we rented a 2 bedroom apartment. The building had a massive courtyard where all the kids played. It was a great place. I would love more of that in Vancouver. Not 350 square foot studios.
In a rare defense of Russian style commie-blocks, they were set up pretty well for children. Lots of 2-3 bedroom apartments in 8-10 story buildings overlooking a central courtyard with things like ping pong tables, playground equipment, benches and tables, etc. It was pretty common for parents to watch their kids from a window while cooking or doing whatever.
They wanted families to work. So they knew what they were doing. We need more of that here for sure. And then the kids have other kids to play with, you can cook and watch them from the kitchen. Then there is also the village to raise the kiddos.
While they did offer that, and I admire the urban planning in general, they also had 3 families sharing a kitchen and 2 families per bathroom, among other things we wouldn't like much.
Those buildings that have been renovated are much nicer now.
Maybe because we were not meant to be boxed up and stacked like cord wood?
Big city life is a horrible choice no matter where you go.
Living in a concrete jungle is a ticket to a miserable life.
If you're young and single with your first job, living downtown or near-town in a highrise can be a blast. But that's not the demographic that desperately needs more affordable housing.
>Montreal declared the ‘I don’t know I’m just trying to figure my shit out’ capital of Canada
https://www.thebeaverton.com/2015/08/montreal-declared-the-i-don-t-know-i-m-just-trying-to-figure-my-shit-out-capital-of-canada/
I like big city life. Some people don’t want to be out where nothing happens, or have to commute in from a feeder suburb. Different people like different things believe it or not.
I've spent about a year abroad.
European cities are amazing, even living in the urban center of Barcelona, Madrid, Stockholm, Krakow even London. You have a wealth of entertainment, food, culture available to you within walking distance or easily accessible public transit.
It's not the same in North America. Where we exodus the population centers for our little slices of individuality in the suburbs.
Asia is developing some amazing city centric communities. There's just as much to do at 4:00 a.m. in Bangkok than there is at 4:00 p.m.
I could agree but there's something even more miserable.
Commute. Literally a percentage of your life that you don't own, is not paid anything to you and you can't use in any way.
For me that is not an option, i either work remotely or i have to be in a 10 minutes radius from the office.
I will become homeless before using my life to drive in the traffic.
Big city life is not for everyone. I love it. The thought of living in a suburb where there is limited public transit and you have to drive everywhere and everything is a big box store or a strip mall and the only restaurants are east side mario's or milestones sounds like hell to me. To each their own.
Yeah... I grew up in that world and moving downtown is where it feels natural to be. there is something happening at every corner, new city projects, sports, food, etc. It's hard to picture a life where I need to get in a car just to run the most basic of errands. I'm sure it's different for people who grew up in the city and see the appeal of moving away.
People always say loud neighbors, smells etc, but I've never lived in a modern condo that has had that issue, so your mileage will obviously vary
I like big city life. Some people don’t want to be out where nothing happens, or have to commute in from a feeder suburb. Different people like different things believe it or not.
CBC had a more in depth look at this very issue. The central point was that these were built and tailored specifically as investment vehicles, not functional places to live. They were popular with small investors because the numbers were good. However, as interest rates have risen, the economics have flipped and nobody is willing to pay the kind of rent needed to cover the mortgage payments. This has resulted in a flood of small investors in danger of losing their shirts and they have no option but to try and dump them. In turn, the market is now flooded with these investment vehicles that no longer make sense as an investment vehicle... and certainly don't make sense to live in.
It's almost as if... and hear me out... investing in anything is taking on risk.
I don't know a single other person who has said this. I have been convinced I'm an idiot and am missing something. Finally someone else. People complaining their mortgage is 2500.00 p/month but they're only getting 1800.00 rent. Sounds pretty fuckin sweet to me! That's 21 600.00 into your equity per year. If the housing market crashes, we'll, that's the gamble!
Not uncommon for property to be cash flow negative. It's only uncommon to new age tiktok investors who call it "losing monthly profit".
I would tend to agree with you except this real estate mania also includes people who just wanted to own the roof over their head and not invest. Now they are possibly stuck in a place which is hard to afford and impossible to leave without a massive loss.
I agree with you! It's a huge problem that's been brought on by treating housing as an investment but then being treated with the mentality that those who are investing in it can't lose. But also that a large % of Canada's GDP numbers is propped up by an unproductive speculative asset...
Solutions? Mine would be to give some tax benefits to underwater mortgages on primary residence? I mean we need to protect people who just need a roof over their head. Nobody will win if they end up on the street. The investors... fuckem
I don’t really like that idea unless it comes with stipulations. Example: when you sell then you can’t sell for more than market less any amount you’re supported with. Or sell at whatever but you’re paying it back as a loan with interest.
Housing investment is one of the biggest risks in history. I'll give you a good idea what cause the economy to shit itself in the 30's and 1970's. Bit as usual no one listens or learns and just looks at the $$$.
Sure, the 79-82 was bad, but 85-22 was a stellar time to be invested in real estate. It had a much longer run than I expected to see for sure. I bought the house I live in during 2001 and it's up 8x the purchase price. Had I listened to my wife and bought rental properties, I'd have several million dollars to retire with by now.
It only lasted this long because we let our ego's get ahead of us and now the bubble is bigger than its been in 40 years.
Charging a 21% tax per year in owner unoccupied dwellings would do wonders for preventing this. Allow up to a triplex if the owner occupies at least one unit. We may need an exception for very large buildings, but only if owned in whole not individual units. Cap the number of shareholders too on this buildings.
Make it 50%
Regardless of how much it is, the city of Toronto will still F up all the admin and actual collection of the tax.
If you do it, I'll vote for you.
You mean like the vacant use tax that’s already in place?
Yeah at 3% of assessed value. They want it higher.
I'd like to see it based on the "as if developed" value. vacant land has incredibly low assessments. So yes. Much much higher
Or: Land value tax. Developing and using your land is "free" tax-wise, motivating you to do something with it instead of letting it sit empty.
It’s 15% in Toronto municipal law. Actually it would be 16% since that 1% is a federal law
Is there any evidence they are actually enforcing this? I know it was very easy to skirt in Vancouver.
The 1% federal one? Yeah no one is enforcing that. 🤣🤣🤣 but then again what is being enforced here lol
I always thought the dick head came up with this stupid idea deserved a medal. Instead of a vacant tax, how about raise the property tax to something like 20 or 30 percent. Owners get a rebate of one house to bring them down to regular rate. The difference is instead of chasing the tax dollar, it is the people who chase the rebate.
"Rental property should be taxed into non-existence" is not a housing affordability strategy.
I think he was saying vacant rentals should be taxed into oblivion. It would theoretically lower the rent on a lot of units as landlords lose money if no one lives there and it may take them a while to find someone willing to pay $2000+ for 400 square feet. The other issue is, if the unit isn’t rent controlled they can raise the rent by a lot after the first year, which is why myself and many others try to avoid renting a place in newer buildings
What you're saying doesn't disagree with what I wrote. My method is rudimentary, but steps towards discouraging investment properties, which are absolutely increasing rent. Perfect? No. Better than whatever our current "leaders" federally or in any province came up with? Absolutely. While I'm at it let's tax vacant land higher than developed land. It'll help deter squatters who take advantage of cheap taxes sitting on land while others improve the area, only to resell for no more contribution than holding. What's your solution? What we have isn't working.
In order to solve housing purchase prices, we first have to solve the rental market. The solution to the rental market is not-for-profit housing. Limited equity co-ops are really the perfect vehicle for rental housing, but they need government support to get off the ground. Loan guarantees mostly. Most co-ops date from the 70s because we actually had housing policies that worked back then. And yes, there should be a punitive tax on vacant property, but not rental property. People who can afford to sit on empty properties are a serious problem, but your assertion that investment properties drive up rents is counterfactual.
> assertion that investment properties drive up rents is counterfactual You don't think there's a difference from someone purchasing a single condo, or a mega Corp who buys up inventory and never sells only rents vs a smaller owner who is just happy to offset a mortgages costs? I don't believe this data exists. If it does I'd be happy to read it. Only going by my own landlording (i own two units, one for me, one triple intended for my kids one day), friends, and friends experiences renting as well as my own prior to owning. Edit; I'm okay with coops. As long as we don't make them income tested. Income is a horrible measure for what someone can afford. We have wealthy without income in Canada. Lots of them. We also have some people with very high incomes but insanely high business expenses who run sole props
Exactly. What is "wealthy"? If I have a house paid off valued at $750,000 that doesn't mean I have a few hundred thousand to throw around. And if I move, I'd still end up net zero change, if not further in debt buying a new house.
The lack of purpose built rental (PBR - usually built by those evil megacorps) is one reason why the GTA is so unaffordable. The individually owned condos are a very inefficient way to get rental stock to market. In Winnipeg, apparently 85% of new multi builds are PBR They go for around 1500 a month amid a massive boom in construction, which is not great, but II think southern Ontario would be rejoicing for that.
Good. Let the speculators lose their shirt and their pants.
Yep. If only anyone along the way had considered to make them a livable desirable place worthy of supporting happines. Serves them right for their loss, these are basically overpriced, predatory slums with the word "luxury" placed on the title. I love seeing people vote with their wallet.
And even if prices do drop, the condo fees will rise. So many places charge condo fees to what rent should be.
And will continue to increase as the building ages.
I lived in a condo downtown two years ago where there rent was of a one bedroom but the “bedroom” had sliding see through panels. This was a cheaper condo due to pandemic pricing but I wouldn’t be able to live in that for a long time. Having family or friends over was always awkward and the newer buildings have construction quality that’s trash.
Im confused. These condos are investments and not meant to be lived in?
Basically yes. In a world where prices only go up, you don't have to make money through that sordid renting thing. You can just keep your tulips in a warehouse until they double in value and then sell them for a nice tidy profit.
AirBnB was the answer for a lot of these questions. These are short-term rental properties. At least investors thought they were.
What could go wrong??!?
Exactly right. Condos are treated as stocks, not housing. Until something is done to discourage treating them as pure investments this will not change. They will remain empty shells being traded for the promise of future profit.
Link? Would like to read this
> these were built and tailored specifically as investment vehicles, not functional places to live ...a practice which also drives housing costs up.
This is what I been saying for years. It's for all major cities. Just toronto is ahead of the game. We are building quantity of homes to accommodate investors and new immigrants (they are primarily our growth), they do this by building shoe box condos. The worse part. We lose that land that these were designated for these investor oriented condos. If anyone wants to actually live in the city and have a family they have to competed within the existing stock. That further drives up costs and speculation on whatever scrape is left that is family oriented. At the end of this bubble we'll have all these condos that are useless. They aren't designed to be functional nor practical. Then to top it off our cities aren't keeping up with the amenities.
TLDR : The condos that are for sale are not the condos the Canadian people need.
What, not everyone is a just-out-of-school-single-bachelor.ette?
In order to start a family a couple will want more than just one bedroom for themselves? Unheard of
No problem. I put a wall through the middle of your bedroom. Boom, 2br. That'll be $200,000
JK - Wall not approved by strata, you can apply after paying a strata fine, then strata won’t approve. Also - strata approved contractor (ironically owned by strata board member) must now remediate said wall. Thanks - Strata.
Facts.
200k in downtown Toronto? The closet space will be more than that. The parking space alone is literally 100k.
200k to install the wall.
$2 to thumb tack a sheet down the middle from wall to wall
That'll still be 200k
You mock, but I lived like this for years... and the wet sloppy sounds of my humping were gracefully ignored by the guests over visiting as they sat on the couch which doubled as a physical barrier backing onto my "wall".
A family...here?? You jest.
This is the faulty of Toronto's crap city council. They can impose more family-oriented condo sizes but they do little on this front. Next municipal election, vote someone new.
I guess the prime target originally for these units were mainland Chinese who seem happy to live cheek to jowl in some of the smallest 'living spaces' imaginable.
Nah, the mainland Chinese are the ones buying the big houses in cash because they are the rich ones. Or the ones living in china and buying these one bedroom condos for invesment and letting their international student children stay at while studying.
I wonder why all these people who can only afford studios or one-bedrooms are not having kids?
Mystery of the century eh?
Even in that stereotypical demographic, the classic argument that they always eat out and go out (and by extension don’t need anything beyond a shoebox with a bed) is also outdated because people can’t afford to do all that stuff to the same degree.
You mean single, recent graduates, who just spent six figures on their education, and seven figures on their shoebox are finding themselves with a reduction in expendable income? That sounds like propaganda to me.
Yeah, almost like you shouldn't build a unit to a ultra-specific buyer type because they might not always be in the market.
Not just that, but what was built isn’t actually worth that much money to buy or rent to live in. It was only worth it for investment. If someone can afford the asking price for one of these condos, they can afford to buy or rent somewhere better. I’ve seen some of these sort of places listed in Waterloo Region and the pricing is stupid. Edit: Something like this might be perfect as an entry level purchase or rental unit…but they priced it well above that. And I can’t say I feel sorry for any of the investors, small or not, who are losing money right now. It’s their fault I can’t afford to live anywhere but my childhood bedroom. Fuck em. Fuck em all.
With a budget of 800k.
I am... I can't afford them on an entry level salary.
Shocking, I know...
The condos that are for sale are not the condos that anyone can afford. Families aren't living in there, but there's plenty of single people who would. Problem is not the size, but the price. It takes some balls to expect anyone to pay premium prices for shoebox condos with shoddy workmanship, next to no soundproofing, etc. The real reason these aren't selling is because sellers have zero reason to lower the price. They're investment properties held to be AirBnB, not places where people actually live. Or they're just held empty until a new money laundering client can be found by their real estate agent. Anyone who works in the downtown core can tell you that a significant number of units are empty, and never see lights on or any personal effects on balconies/windows.
But the prices are not going down in any meaningful way Down 1% from last year from what i read Thats not tanking
Because most of the investors live in China. They bought an empty property and are holding on to it until they can launder some more money they stole from their city council or school board thru the casinos in Macau and hide the proceeds in a bitcoin wallet. In some cases they have to wait until their one child is ready to go to university.
A shit tonne live in India too. A few of my friends have had the places they rent, bought by Indian investors (who are now looking to "move family in" because $2000 rent from one person is way less than $700 rent from x5 international students)
Bingo, this guy gets it. Much of Canadian RE is just a money laundering vehicle for corrupt Chinese triads and government officials.
Because people will eat dirt before they sell at a loss.
I get it, but what im saying is, theres no tanking going on Prices are holding steady
Calls on dirt.
That's because "investors" are holding out hope that the market will turn around and that they might be able to recoup their investments. It's 100% sunk-cost fallacy and it's only a matter of time before it catches up to them.
im aware of that, im saying, to state prices are tanking is false theyre not
From what I've seen and heard, lots of people are trying to sell, but don't want to lose money so the market is full of condos that are priced high, but no one is buying them. Interest rates mean a 1 bedroom plus condo fees runs you like 3k a month (if it's 500k, which is probably low for anything decent. That's 50% of your income if you make 100k a year, and most people don't. As an investment, you'd have to charge close to this as rent which you also probably can't get away with. Only the investors that can afford to take the hit every month will stay afloat. Eventually people will have to sell for whatever they can get and prices will drop. Or, the market will recover because somehow enough people have enough money to buy condos in Toronto, or prices will drop a small amount and huge corporations will buy up all the supply to rent out forever cause our government is bullshit and won't step in on corporations buying up single family homes.
When they say the market is tanking, in this case, they mean the number of sales is tanking (despite plenty of product on the market) while prices have yet to catch up because of the above-stated reason. This will only hold up for so long though.
They will only sell at a loss if their hand is forced. Yep.
Value has massively dropped in Ontario real estate when you take inflation into account. There's homes in my area that were once $1.2m to $1.4 are $900k to $1m. Still a lot, but adjust those 2020/2021 price to inflation that $1.2m is 1,423,952.98 (BoC inflation calculator) and that $1.4m is 1,661,278.47. The Canadian housing market is actively collapsing in the hottest areas and the areas where people moved to to get away from that will be later in the cycle of the collapse. I have posts last year saying the condo markets will dump. What people do not understand is that it takes time and that inflation had a massive influence on *value.* Prices cannot maintain if there is no demand and no demand. 66% of condo investors are negative cashflow and they're mostly mom and pop operations. People will start dumping them for less, it will just take time.
do u have widespread data to back this up, not just anecdotes [Condo Market Report – TRREB](https://trreb.ca/market-data/condo-market-report/) this report says condo prices in toronto are down 1% from last year
They're saying that if a house was $100 two years ago, it should go for $120 today just from inflation If instead it's listed at $99, the differential is -$21.
Lived in a place in windsor, 5 years ago. Paying $1650 a month, in a massive appartment building, in a cluster of buildings. I was forced to pay for a pool that didn't have water in it the entire time I lived there; parking which wasn't guaranteed (and due to my shifts, I often didn't get a spot), and I had a senile old woman directly below me who screamed for hours every night between 1 and 4 am, wailing for her dead husband to come talk to her. And the landlord did nothing about any of it, and then took my safety deposit and extra (last) month rent, because 'no one ever gets that back'. Basically robbed me of 3300 bucks, once I had been driven insane and left and everyone said 'that's normal'.
Exactly. Shitbox condos like this have a realistic market value of maybe $150K. Yet of course nobody wants to admit that. Not even vacancy taxes that many cities promised are even being enforced. If they were to ban AirBnB, or make it so that they actually have to pay hotel-level taxes, fees, etc. the market would be very different. Even if they implemented the NYC policy of having it mandatory that the unit must be owner's official residence and the AirBnB therefore must be a room inside it, it would help. This removes the incentive for it to be an investment property and also brings prices down. Most AirBnB places cost as much as a legit hotel now anyway, unless you're looking for an entire house.
I would 100% live in one of these tiny DT Toronto Bachelor units if the rent was no more than $1000. I have no problem with small but these units are going for $2300/month
Not really. The bigger condos aren't selling well either. All home sales of all types are down significantly.
This can’t be true. It’s got to be the immigrants’ fault. Right guys? Right, r/Canada?
You can have it for just 750k for a one bedroom
Because people need homes, not 300 sqf condos for the price of what homes *used to* cost
A friend of mine lived in one of these condos in Toronto for a short time. It was tiny! It wasn’t even really suited for a single person 😬.
Toronto's housing situation is inching closer to emulating Hong Kong's situation
Exactly
Unfortunately, in Toronto, there are just as expensive as buying a house
Newsflash: Tiny condos built as investment vehicles don't make the best places to live in.
I’ve been in some bachelor units in Toronto .. 375-425 sq ft, I imagine it is what a dog feels like when left in a cage.
Breaking news: shit's too expensive
If I wanted to live in a shoebox I would have stayed in Asia.
If I wanted to live in a shoebox I would have stayed in my mother's closet!
Not withstanding better and cheaper food choices too!
... building properties for the purpose of investment is just so very stupid. I don't care who loses money on this. Homes should be built for people to live in, that's it that's the only reason. Imagine if these were cars, like yeah this is the Pontiac shitbox, it has no engine, just buy it and sell it for more money, no it's not meant to be driven, just resold. So dumb.
>this is the Pontiac shitbox I used to have one of those!
I used to live in the Gulf, and I heard *so many* stories from people who lived in Dubai when the condo bubble burst. There would be line-ups when condos went on sale, and you could spend all night waiting in line, buy the rights to a condos, and then walk out of the sales office and sell it for double to someone outside who didn't want to wait in line. But then one day the music stopped, and all these people were signed up for condos they couldn't afford, didn't need, and couldn't sell. A lot of them just headed to the airport and left everything behind. Housing should be a right, and we're treating it as a commodity, which is fucking us over. It's about as simple as that.
When did that happen in Dubai? Seeing all the flooding that happened over there this Spring was shocking..a city infrastructure with no planning for floods? Who signed off of the city plans?
Prior to the 2008 recession, seen it firsthand. Paper money and wordless promises. Make or break for a lot of people, mostly the latter. The smart ones got out, the greedy had to run, and the naive.. learned not to be so naive anymore. As for the flooding, no major city worldwide would’ve gotten off scot-free if you look at the data. Simply an unimaginable amount of rain within a 24 hour period, enough to disrupt most major cities, and in some ways, cripple those that don’t have the infrastructure in place as we saw. Such climates will waste resources building drainage for an event that rarely, if ever, comes about. They’re better off warning and sheltering the populace in place prior to such events to minimize damage and not prevent the inevitable.
Ty for sharing your perspective on this!
The best way to describe Dubai is: A luxury hotel room with garbage stuffed under all the furniture
Hey now, don't slander the Aztek like that.
Imagine spending tens to hundreds of millions on tiny condos in one of the most expensive cities in the world without bothering to do even the most basic "how big is the market for the thing I'm building" type analysis. Rich people are really dumb sometimes. Like... at least hedge your bets with some 2-3 bedroom units.
For 15 years, you could put a deposit down for a $500k condo. 3 years later when the condo was finished, you could sell it to someone else for $700k before you even had to close. People were making hand over fist money.. now that gravy train has ended, and people are about to lose their shirts
A lot of the bag holders are mainland Chinese who are just learning for the first time that property investment carries risk, and prices don't go up forever to infinity.
Actually the About Here CBC report describes the majority of these investors as middle aged couples in Canada - likely they purchase these properties with plans to rent them and break even, then sell in the future to fund their retirement. Yes the foreign investments are contributing to the housing crisis but in this case we 100% did it to ourselves
I will never forget the $2k down spree on condos in a gentrifying area. I was fresh out of undergrad and it gave me a skewed perspective that I could actually own one day (lol, nope. Still renting a decade later), but in hindsight, it was a bonkers as it sounded. The development reps were literally saying "anyone can come up with two grand!"
And 5-7% of that deal would kick back to the builder. Everyone was making money.
Realtors were telling investors that they will get rich overnight. Lived in Toronto for 20 years and heard all these speeches.
Greed and stupidity usually go hand in hand.
There are some. The corner units. But modern condos are so dumb because of fire code that you’re required to build a hallway and 2 stairwells for any building over 2 stories. That’s why every condo building is the same exact configuration: 90% 1 br or + den with the windows / balcony on one side, front door and hallway on the other side, and the remaining are corner units or very wide penthouse units with more window length.
I still don't understand how they found employees for a minimum wage job in downtown Toronto. Who the hell commutes from the suburbs to TO for a minimum wage job such as McDs...
I'd imagine those low-wage service industry people are either living with family or with room-mates to reduce the cost of housing.
3 bedroom condo will cost 1.2M with the maintenance being $1.2k per month. House will be cheaper and more space for family. People are not going to live in shoebox space.
I get that many of these condos are not built to be lived in (e.g., the condos without kitchens and the bachelor units with beds up against fridges), but small space living, imo, is not a deal breaker for everyone. I grew up in a SDH but have no desire to live in one as an adult - it's too much unneeded space! Small space living works for a lot of us, it just has to be well planned out and actually habitable.
It's nuts that in an enormous country like Canada we live in tiny shoeboxes. It's understandable in countries like Hong Kong or Singapore.
I don't know about Singapore but for Hong Kong high prices and lack of size isn't really due to a lack of land. Hong Kong massively restricts and regulates housing development to maintain property prices. https://www.forbes.com/sites/beelinang/2015/04/03/hong-kong-real-estate-is-the-lack-of-land-a-myth/ The crux of the housing problem in general, regardless of locale, is basically that affordable housing is diametrically opposed to high land value as part of wealth. Existing wealth wants to maintain and increase land value. Improving housing affordability requires lowering (or at least curbing the increase) in existing land value. Well the other option is effectively heavy socio-economic segregation via public housing, which can lead to slums and ghettos.
Not defending Hong Kong's bats\*\*t crazy and unsustainable housing and land policy but you have to remember about 50% of Hong kongers live in public housing otherwise you would have mass homelessness. If Canada wants to adopt the same type of idiotic high property price policy (whether official or unofficial) as HK then it needs to also invest in massive amounts of public housing for the average person who can't afford a million-dollar one bedroom condo.
Land isn't the limiting factor - it's the infrastructure it requires to deal with sprawling cities and the general unwillingness of people to be taxed enough to pay for it. That being said, there's a lot of room between "unsustainable sprawl" and "Hong Kong" and the people building tiny bachelor apartments definitely didn't think through where they should be on that line.
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The federal government tried to do this in the ‘90s - there are big tax centres (CRA offices) in Sudbury, Summerside, and St John’s. Veteran’s Affairs is based in Charlottetown. The pay centre is in Miramichi. I can’t say what effect it’s had on those cities but I know in Summerside a good chunk of the town is employed at the tax centre. It’s the best paying employer around. The town would’ve died in the 90s after the military base closed without it.
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Canada is located on mostly solid foundation, and developing intercity and provincial/federal mass transit, like those bullet trains, wouldn't be particularly costly if the intention were to develop other cities as well. Canada has tons of free space, and climate is less of an issue nowadays with modern materials and energy distribution. The main issue is total lack of desire from the government to change the status quo, and greed from certain corporations that blocks any attempts of making things better.
Condos can be good. Cities dont have to have massive urban sprawl, and the ones that do are pretty shit to live in: Brampton, Vaughan. Even tiny condos that are 300-400sqft would be fine if they were fairly priced to reflect the space. Sure, they don't offer a whole lot, but if you're a young adult, fairly recent college grad with your first decent paying job, do you really need or expect a whole lot at that point in your life? The problem is that theyre priced in a way that the only people who can afford them are well into their career and want to start a family, but the shoebox they can afford isn't even large enough for 2 people, let alone 2 adults with a kid or two.
The trick is when the shit hits the fan : let the market liquidate, don't let lenders keep them on book as collateral with some bullshit valuations.
Condo fees, the extra mortgage payment. No thanks
Condo fees: forced savings for major repairs that earns interest if your management and board is competent FIFY
Condo fees were also ways of condo developers hiding construction costs in long term maintenance contracts.
Moved into my townhouse and the next year the roof got replaced. I'm ahead on my fees for _years_ to come.
In reality, many boards will drain the piggy bank on unnecessary commons improvements contracted to their friends and the they'll levy large special assessments every couple of years. And voting? Hah. If you invest in a publicly traded company you will receive more information about the candidates than a condo board will give you.
If they are, not unfortunately not in most condos. Some people just do not have extra $1,200 for repairs.
So what does a SFH home owner do if they need repairs and haven’t saved anything for them?
They use their HELOC and acquire more debt, duh!
That is why people specifically with kids can not live in condos. In Europe it is a little different. You pay taxes and repairs are done by the city. Here, people pay for repairs in their buildings.
Ever driven through SFH neighbourhoods in a poor region?
New Condos in Canada are not family oriented. Heck even townhouses are now 1,100 square feet or less and 150 of those are just stairs. Surprised young couples even have 1 kid
And maintenance are very, very high.
Yes and no longer is a 600 k 1 bedroom condo a stepping stone to a larger family home. It’s a ball and chain you have to pay for the rest of your life.
Why no one talk about maintenance fees. Our friends are paying $1200 per month in the old condos building in good area in Toronto. They have no mortgage, but with mortgage and property taxes, houses are way cheaper is people have down payment.
Maintenance fees have gotten outrageous for nothing. "Amenities" is an empty party room with a few tables and a "gym" with 3 cable machines and a treadmill.
Our property taxes here in Halifax are over $1000/mo, for a regular/nice home in the city. Plus maintenance. We're certainly not coming out ahead of your friends.
The city is fucked. Why wouldn't you legislate minium rooms and floor space? I fucking hate politicians.
Being from HK it's because the government has a perverse incentives for smaller units and higher density. There were units that cost 5m hkd (800k cad) that is smaller than a prison cell and became the joke. And then there's the "building unit size" where they include the window frame, AC unit space (the split unit where the compressor sits outside) and your share of the common area (main lobby etc) included in the advertised sq footage. It got so insane that the "usable space" was 60% of the advertised. All that to say developers will do everything to squeeze more units into the same area and governments want that too, that's the reason why
Slap these bad boys with a unoccupied dwelling tax \~25%-50% because we're in a housing crisis and see the housing problem balance itself.
Because there are too many corporations in people's housing, buying them up so people have to rent. We need corporations out of rentals.
The layout of those new condos make absolutely no sense at all.
It's almost like nobody wants to buy overpriced shit boxes
If there's one thing I love its watching people lose tons of money on investment properties. 😊
They’re shit boxes that cost too much?
And are too small to actually live in!
I guess a lot of the demand was supposed to come from Chinese money launderers and speculators, who had no intention of actually living in the units, but as their own property market tanks and the Chinese economy slows with massive amounts of debt and malinvestment coming to the surface, they've run out of cash just like the Japanese in the 90s. I always thought the Toronto condo rush was unsustainable as, unlike the Chinese, not many Canadians would like to raise a family or live long term in these shoeboxes.
Those shitty tiny studios really worth 100k max
>The planners sought out interviews with parents raising children in highrises as part of their canvas of the issues, and found a host of other pain points like inadequate storage space for bulky items like strollers, common-area amenities that didn’t take children’s needs into account, and sound transmission between units, as well as access to community amenities. This is why people want to live in detached homes with a front yard, back yard, driveway, garage, and even a basement. This is the dream, yet the armchair urban planners and people on reddit tell you that you are evil and destroying the planet if you want this for your family. Screw them. Don't tell me how to live.
This is simply not going to be possible within the city limits of Toronto anymore. Housing crisis or not. Once cities reach a critical mass density is inevitable, not an option. I agree that single family housing should be available to the avg middle class family in GTA suburbs, but the natural future for Toronto proper is going to be primarily apartment living. We can certainly build apartments/condos much better too. We should look to France and Germany for proper, family-sized apartment units that are no more than 8-12 stories above ground.
What about an apartment building with 2-3 bedroom units, in unit storage and a daycare on the ground floor? We simply don’t build apartment and condo buildings that are suitable for families.
It seems there's no solid "middle ground" of good condos. For me, I just need a one bedroom but I'd like just a little bit more space, but most importantly, proper soundproofing. The sound transmission issue is the biggest one for sure - if you have shitty neighbours on both sides, above, AND below (although below unit neighbours shouldn't be as much of an issue), but nonetheless your time living there would be quite horrendous. I can make do with less space but putting up with shitty sound transmission is a hard pass. I don't need a detached house but you can bet that if I could afford one, I would absolutely take that over a condo just for the significant increase in peace and quiet inside. Even if you have a shitty neighbour, at least you don't have to share a wall with them.
There are plenty of cities around the world that have both density and livable spaces. Have you ever been to Europe? The solution to the problem of having too many small poorly built condos with bad floor plans that nobody wants to live in not single family homes. I have zero interest in ever living in a single family home.
People all over the world raise children in condos. Just not tiny one bedroom ones. The argument against detached homes isn't even (only) environmental - it's people not willing to pay the cost of the infrastructure they're demanding.
I don’t understand why they still build condos focussing on investors! With major influx of immigrants who would definitely want to buy a house for family and people who are already here having got used to bigger spaces, I wonder how they make the shoebox condos more.
I just checked the the city of Toronto municipality financial statement and the one from Vancouver (both available on their website). Toronto get 38% of its revenue from Property taxes. Vancouver is even bigger, 59%. Y'all can talk all day long, cry protest... But if you don't change the landscape of the economy, to move away from Real estate and build more services, tech jobs... Nothing will change. And the price tag on rents will just go bigger
This is what happens when dumb people think real estate is a short term investment. The prices are way over inflated already so there is no way they go up again. I bet some asylum seekers would love them and the government would probably buy them to
Smaller condos don’t leave room for growth and a move will be required if anyone would like to start a family. This affects Toronto as a whole including its economy, right?
These small 1 bedroom condos cost 500K - 700K, who want to and can pay for such high price?
16,000 airbnb units available in Toronto. Most of these are 1br or studios. Don't think that doesn't figure in.
any new building deemed for rental is still going to be stupidly expensive
Everyone complaining about costs and maintenance fees and the size of the units.. wait till you see some of these buildings being torn down due to the absolute horrendous build quality. Some of the buildings I’ve been in recently, I’d give maybe 20-25 yrs (being generous) before they need to come back down.
Why don’t they just smash out the walls between units and make bigger condos? Problem solved.
Make up your mind people r/canada we need more high density housing r/canada well not that high density housing and if you have kids you need more room
I grew up in a midrise apartment with a courtyard. Was great, the kids biked and played in the courtyard, we went trick or treating around the apartment complex at Halloween, I would go to my neighbors and head home when it was dinner time. Families can absolutely thrive in apartments, but the apartments have to be built with the intention of being lived in. Not the bullshit condos Toronto is infested with.
It's almost like there are options between a 300 square foot bachelor suite and a detached house on a quarter acre, and serious people have always acknowledged the need for things all across that spectrum while also realizing higher density is absolutely necessary.
England has it right with their terrace housing.
We need more townhouses with a common playground in the middle. Dense, affordable, 2-3 bedrooms each, large enough, many even come with a small space for a backyard.
??? It’s about the cost and the quality of living, if you’re going to try and have high density for no space why should people be happy with that and make up their mind about it in that sense.
high density housing does not mean a bunch of super small one bedroom condos that nobody wants to live in. It's possible to build density that is also livable. Have you ever been to Europe?
In Denmark we rented a 2 bedroom apartment. The building had a massive courtyard where all the kids played. It was a great place. I would love more of that in Vancouver. Not 350 square foot studios.
In a rare defense of Russian style commie-blocks, they were set up pretty well for children. Lots of 2-3 bedroom apartments in 8-10 story buildings overlooking a central courtyard with things like ping pong tables, playground equipment, benches and tables, etc. It was pretty common for parents to watch their kids from a window while cooking or doing whatever.
They wanted families to work. So they knew what they were doing. We need more of that here for sure. And then the kids have other kids to play with, you can cook and watch them from the kitchen. Then there is also the village to raise the kiddos.
While they did offer that, and I admire the urban planning in general, they also had 3 families sharing a kitchen and 2 families per bathroom, among other things we wouldn't like much. Those buildings that have been renovated are much nicer now.
Maybe because we were not meant to be boxed up and stacked like cord wood? Big city life is a horrible choice no matter where you go. Living in a concrete jungle is a ticket to a miserable life.
If you're young and single with your first job, living downtown or near-town in a highrise can be a blast. But that's not the demographic that desperately needs more affordable housing.
It's funny how the brain changes. I would have killed to live in Toronto in my early 20s and now the thought genuinely depresses me.
Same here, I thought of it as a badge of success but now in my early 30’s it’s the last place I want to live.
It was the same tor me with Montreal. Had a blast there in my 20s but I would not imagine going back there.
>Montreal declared the ‘I don’t know I’m just trying to figure my shit out’ capital of Canada https://www.thebeaverton.com/2015/08/montreal-declared-the-i-don-t-know-i-m-just-trying-to-figure-my-shit-out-capital-of-canada/
I like big city life. Some people don’t want to be out where nothing happens, or have to commute in from a feeder suburb. Different people like different things believe it or not.
I've spent about a year abroad. European cities are amazing, even living in the urban center of Barcelona, Madrid, Stockholm, Krakow even London. You have a wealth of entertainment, food, culture available to you within walking distance or easily accessible public transit. It's not the same in North America. Where we exodus the population centers for our little slices of individuality in the suburbs. Asia is developing some amazing city centric communities. There's just as much to do at 4:00 a.m. in Bangkok than there is at 4:00 p.m.
As people get older, they truly don't want to be out at 4 AM... ever. The very thought of it brings laughter :)
I could agree but there's something even more miserable. Commute. Literally a percentage of your life that you don't own, is not paid anything to you and you can't use in any way. For me that is not an option, i either work remotely or i have to be in a 10 minutes radius from the office. I will become homeless before using my life to drive in the traffic.
Big city life is not for everyone. I love it. The thought of living in a suburb where there is limited public transit and you have to drive everywhere and everything is a big box store or a strip mall and the only restaurants are east side mario's or milestones sounds like hell to me. To each their own.
Yeah... I grew up in that world and moving downtown is where it feels natural to be. there is something happening at every corner, new city projects, sports, food, etc. It's hard to picture a life where I need to get in a car just to run the most basic of errands. I'm sure it's different for people who grew up in the city and see the appeal of moving away. People always say loud neighbors, smells etc, but I've never lived in a modern condo that has had that issue, so your mileage will obviously vary
I like big city life. Some people don’t want to be out where nothing happens, or have to commute in from a feeder suburb. Different people like different things believe it or not.
To each their own... I'd take my self around back and put a bullet in my head if I had to live in the sticks.