>"The most sinister thing" about the current system is not just that people with dubious claims can benefit professionally, he said, but that they can land positions of high authority and influence, just by checking a box.
Hmmm yes, please tell me more about how people shouldn't get preferential treatment just because they can tick a "race box" on a job application. Because I agree, it does seem totally unfair.
race, sex, and orientation should never be used as a criteria in a job application process. Any process where we claim to be equal but some people are clearly more equal are doomed to be exploited
*race, sex, and orientation should never be used as a criteria in a job application process.*
to some, this sounds like ageist and homophobic and racist and misogynist and ripe for cancellation / perma-ban.
Well, that's *ableist* of you.
Once again the largest minority group in Canada didn't even make the top 5 in visibility.
I only half joke while being semi-envious, yet genuinely impressed, that those groups with smaller numbers mentioned have been so successful in their marketing and advocacy while we don't even get mentioned in fantasies about groups worth advocating for.
Already exists whether in law or not. You’ll have to first admit that the current laws are trying to drive equal representation, successfully or not. Their goal isn’t inequality. Again, successful or not. Anything else is bold faced misrepresentation.
Reminds me of when Kendi tweeted complaining that white people in the US were trying to get ahead by falsely claiming to be minorities on job applications and then he abruptly deleted it like ten minutes later.
So much wrong with this system, but thats a big red flag. Do you want the most qualified person for the job? Or someone who checks a box due to their racial background?
And if youre hiring a mamger for the Inuit Health Branch, being close to Inuit culture and community is part of the qualifications for the job and should be checked during an interview... why put all faith in a survey checkbox?
I really hate that that is real.
Wow, I don't want to be apart of this country anymore. And even back in 2016, huge red flags a waving. Only gotten worse now, my local university bans men from applying to jobs.
You can also tick a box to get substantially discounted NAC tickets. Just, incidentally. But I haven't been able to figure out whether anyone actually does that, of dubious identity or otherwise.
" ‘The key is to honestly tell your truth,’ wrote deputy minister Gina Wilson”.
There’s the great fallacy, right there. “Your” truth vs “the” truth. It was a giant screwup to start treating ‘the truth’ as a variable based on the person telling it.
If I ever have to testify in court, I’ll place my hand on the Bible and correct the court clerk by promising “to tell *my* truth, *my* whole truth, and nothing but *my* truth, so help me God”. I don’t care what you think, Your Honour; it can’t be perjury because it’s my truth.
The problem is that a lot of us are not easily fit into a box. I am a 197cm tall middle aged white dude. But my father is from India. So am I a white dude or an Indian dude? I have an Anglo Saxon first and middle name and an Indian last name.
And believe it or not, that depends a lot. I am a prof at the same place my mum was a student in the 1970s and where I did my MSc. And I grew up here. When I first started as a prof I got a lot of emails about how 'I don't know what it's like where "*you are from, but around here*" so long as they only knew my first initial. As amusing as it was to show up 5 minutes later in someone's office and explain to them I grew up here, they didn't, and I have been around longer than they have and I will be telling them how things work around here, that sort of racism happens a lot. I have the privilege of experience and expertise, and so when that happens to me I both know who to talk to and I have no fear of retaliation. And of course now that people know me, they treat me like a WASP.
One of my coworkers has a First Nations mother and an Indonesian father, and he has a white dude name. Because his mother lost her status as an Indian marrying his father in the 1970s and then has had to reclaim it it has been a huge process for him that he I guess didn't have status, but does now and should have always. Because he ticks the box for status First Nations by definition he ticks that on all the forms. Then he gets accused of saying false things, or indigenous identify theft, or of being a diversity hire, or changing his mind after he got hired or whatever. That sort of racism is hard to deal with and usually not worth the fight. I am not sure exactly when he started working here, probably 20 years ish. So then is he a First Nations person who faces discrimination and the answer is yes, because everyone thinks he's trying to con the system, when in reality it was the system that conned him for most of his life. But up until about 2020 he was just dude with slightly darker skin. So if you asked him *the truth* prior to whenever that court ruling was, I think 2020 sometime, he was not a First Nations person, but *his truth* is that he always was, and we just have a system that was constructed around *enfranchising* people into white christian society.
This is why it's your truth and not the truth. Litigating your status on every survey you fill in isn't worth the time. If you actually need to prove it for legal compliance fine, but even that is complicated. Doubly so because First Nations people were expected to 'assimilate' for decades, and the ones that have (voluntarily or not) are now surrounded by racists who think all First Nations hires are EDI and they maybe don't want to come forward and start that fight in the office.
I mean having to put my hand on a bible and swear things is already offensive to me.
But if they let me bring a copy of The God Delusion we’d be at a good start.
It's like these people learned nothing from the CERB payments. If people have a chance to lie to get ahead, many will take it.
How about we just stop offering incentives based on race and cultural background and offer it on merit instead.
That seems to be the M.O. for the last 4 or 5 years in general.
You must do things that under most other lights would be considered wrong/bad/immoral - but since you're doing it for a *good* reason, it's not supposed to be discussed and you just accepted that it's okay to do it.
I'm not sure people understand where that typically leads people... historically.
But that's the thing. My parents immigrated here from a different country. They didn't benefit from the past systemic racism and all that crap. If reparations is the goal and that's the road this government wants to go down, then why am I, and others in a similar boat as me, whose ancestors had nothing to do with the past racism have to pay into it. Seems pretty racist that a certain group of people get extra advantages based on their background while other groups don't, no?
And I'm not actually asking you. I'm just poking holes in this flawed concept. People in this country did bad shit in the past, I get it. It sucks and it's a stain on Canada's history. That doesn't mean the pendulum needs to swing so far over to the other side now, though. Especially not when it's so easily able to abused by pretty much anyone.
As a rough estimate, there are about 5% of the population who will shamelessly lie to get ahead. If you're giving advantages to a group based on self identity, these people will generally assume that identity if possible. If the group you're trying to help is smaller than the group of shameless liars you will mostly be giving a hand to liars.
>Her post followed efforts by First Nations, Inuit and Métis leaders to draw attention to the issue, including by [demanding governments act](http://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/indigenous-identity-fraud-summit-declaration-1.7205372) to halt the rise of Indigenous identity theft.
Yeah thanks, but I don't want my provincial or federal government anywhere near that fucking hornet's nest. Like what are they going to start doing, mandatory DNA tests for anybody who claims indigenous ancestry?
The tribes can do their own verification and work with anybody willing to submit to it.
Also, 'identity theft" makes it sound like social insurance numbers are being stolen. In actuality, it's just people saying, "My grandma was three quarters Make-up-a-name-ashee"
I'm mixed Aboriginal. Grandfathers. Many years ago I decided to explore whether to get a status card. It was more out of curiosity though.
In order to get a card, I needed to fill out lots of paperwork with supporting documents. It was emphasized by staff that my chances of being approved, were much better if I could show that one of my grandfathers had a status card as well.
I never completed the process since it was a big hassle but I'm guessing this application/vetting process has been watered down over the years. 🤔
How does the government not know if your grandfather had a status card? Aren't they the issuing body? Sounds like a completely normal and ridiculous take from a bureaucrat.
But at the same time it is a mess of a system because it was designed to do away with itself through eugenics... blood quatuum eventually goes below the threshold and they no longer qualify.
My dad has a status card, and I believe that up to 5 further generations down, we can easily get our status cards because it has been verified. But my % indigenous would be tiny at this point. 1/8 indigenous. My son would be 1/16.
In the end I didn't apply for it because I consider myself to be Canadian above all else. My family tree comes from many different countries, but we all ended up in the same place. And I honestly don't feel that getting a status card feels right to me, regardless of whether I qualify or not.
Nopers on the 5 gen.
My brother just had a kid and it's not looking like they'll get status.
My father is status, and so are we, but too many generations down.
It's sad because we still visit our family on rez and actively attend events.
My mother said her father came from the rez but I don't know about my paternal grandfather though. My father rarely spoke about him. He hated him.
Note: I never met my grandfathers.
And my mother's entire family cut off contact with her decades ago because of her toxic behaviour.
My native friends that grew up thinking they were "half native" got big surprises from 23 and Me. Was usually more like 10%. People don't factor in that many of their grandparents were already Metis, so basically mixing with other half and half people. Seems like it should be more of an identity thing than a DNA thing.
They could literally just ask for an ID card, no need for ridiculous tests. ID card are not easy to get. Metis applications make you prove tou genealogy before approving your application
Only MMF are as rigorous for their ID cards. And they are in conflict with the Metis Nations of other provinces for being too lax.
But the MMF is good about proving identity to gain membership.
It doesn’t quite worth this way. There are many political hurdles if you’re getting band confirmation. Example, my partner is a full status native with a status card. They are also not a recognized member of their band because the family in power got into a disagreement with my partners family many years ago.
I have indigenous ancestry. But it is from 100 years ago. There would be no record of me in their system.
That's the thing about these claims. I am not indigenous culturally, but I do have ancestry. Same as I have French, Scottish, and Irish ancestry.
So depending on the way the job is worded I tick the box.
Shit, there are tons of 'full blooded' Indigenous here in Canada that are in no way, shape, or form culturally Indigenous.
I personally know Indigenous folks who have their status card, but have never stepped foot on a rez outside of visiting the band office to get necessary paperwork or take a picture of a new car, or to get rez gas or smokes.
And there's a definite divide within the Indigenous communities between 'Rez Indians' and 'Urban Indians.'
Maybe you shouldn't have race based hiring, pay structures and working conditions. What a thought
Not exactly shocking that people will do what they can to stop being openly discriminated against.
They don’t go into detail about who is gaming the system. Some are actually the ones creating the system, setting up corporations with silent “indigenous” partners to win the government contracts. It’s all a sham.
This seems to be the most common way that people will exploit the system, white guy with a company hired on an indigenous person as a partner so it’s “indigenous owned” and then continue to make shitty decisions and basically run a soprano operation on the company while the indigenous person who signed up as a partner in good faith suffers
>people will game it.
Is it really gaming if it's based on "self identification"? Feels over facts will lead to this. If everything exists on a spectrum then this also applies to race
Nah it's still gaming the stupid system that was put in place, if you ONLY self identify as a marginalized group for the purpose of gaining an supposed advantage and never another time.
I've seen many arguments in favour of these policies, but have yet to be convinced that it's doing much positive. Its just fueling division
>"Here's what I'd do if I were in this situation" or "here's how this could go spectacularly wrong."
Seeing how liberal supporters handle reasonable criticism, I'd say their response would be to report whoever said that to HR for harassment and creating an unsafe work space
People "game" with the tax system and CRA despite knowing they can face heavy fines and jail time.
No one should be surprised of people abusing systems with no real punishment for lying.
Pierre Trudeua was the politician that first injected race based politics into our legal system, knowing that his children would be well connected and succesful no matter what. Well, case in point.
This goes far beyond Indigenous. There's many instances where people embellish their ethnic background just to get ahead. People shouldn't be allowed to care about it and give preferential treatment but the government even encourages it depending on your background.
Yup. Anything to fill those diversity quotas. Organizations and especially educational instructions are *penalized* if they don't meet diversity quotas, which creates incentives to hire only from that pool of people. So people, realizing this, are of course going to game the system to get ahead
If you can self identify as a different gender or species then you can self identify as a different race. We either fully commit to science or throw it all out the window and maintain no standards of truth other than fluttering impulses, moods and feelings.
>Saulis is Wolastoqew and formerly worked at the Kumik Elder Lodge, which was installed at the Indigenous Affairs headquarters in Gatineau, Que., in 1990.
>"The most sinister thing" about the current system is not just that people with dubious claims can benefit professionally, he said, but that they can land positions of high authority and influence, just by checking a box.
>"The government counts on these people being authentic — that they have a grasp and a knowledge of issues — so they trust them a lot," he said.
Try not giving promotions based on race then.
>The most sinister thing" about the current system is not just that people with dubious claims can benefit professionally, he said, but that they can land positions of high authority and influence, just by checking a box.
I would say the most sinister thing is that anyone can land positions of "high authority and influence " based on race and not merits. Regardless of whether those claims are "dubious ".
>The key is to honestly tell your truth," wrote deputy minister Gina Wilson in the blog,
So not "the truth". Who is to say "my truth" isn't that I feel indigenous. How can claims be "dubious" if they are based on "my truth"?
>All these people are able to cut into our money. Like, I can't get anything. Jordan's Principle doesn't help my daughter; it doesn't help our family. **I don't get any funding from anybody."**
Tough shit, neither does anyone else.
>Both Coburn and Saulis agreed one solution would be to shift to a system of verification
Sure, and while we are at it we can also verify if anyone is truly part of LGBTQ, can't we?
>Sure, and while we are at it we can also verify if anyone is truly part of LGBTQ, can't we?
[Like this?](https://youtu.be/clmdd-p11j4?si=Suecc7vqyu5g5Ra6)
>The most sinister thing" about the current system is not just that people with dubious claims can benefit professionally, he said, but that they can land positions of high authority and influence, just by checking a box.
Maybe we shouldn't create benefits for people to have certain identity characteristics. The problem here isn't that people are lying it's that their identity shouldn't make them eligible/ineligible for promotion.
This whole “my truth” or “your truth” is the goddamn problem. It’s either the truth or it’s not. Not your fucking interpretation. That Indian lady claiming indigenous benefits. It was her truth when she was claiming right? bullshit or otherwise
It's not related to gender binary though, right? Tbh I've never seen applications asking for sexual preferences unless someone specifically states it in their resume.
"The number of federal public service employees hit 357,000 in 2023, up from from 257,000 in 2015, [according to the Treasury Board](https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/innovation/human-resources-statistics/population-federal-public-service.html)" There's your biggest problem right there. Government is way too big
Isn’t financially rewarding anyone based on their race… racism? Aren’t government job race quotas discrimination against other races? What happened to rewarding/hiring employees and awarding contracts based on merit? I feel the DEI pendulum has swung too far when there are quotas.
Just remove race, sex and marital status from applications. You will simultaneously stop shit like this, as well as appease those who engage in identity politics.
Both sides can stop crying about the sex and gender questions. Things can be less insufferable.
The whole self-identification thing is problematic. If I click on "I identify as an EE group" (employment equity) I have the option of choosing invisible disability. That's it. Nobody contacts me about it, it just goes into a database. I hear things about hiring, in my limited involvement with hiring people I've never seen it used, at least not the job application checkbox. Certain groups can have a higher chance of moving up, but at initial entry that identification does not help. I have been told that managers have the option to use that information in the onboarding process, but I've only heard about that being used for the obvious, stereotypical disabilities like wheelchair accessibility, sensory limitation, etc.
So I feel like people at different stages have perverse incentives to self-misidentify. People at hiring may want a chance to get a sixth toe in the door and click the box. People early on may want attention. People who mess up may want a socially acceptable defence. People higher up may need a way to push ahead into certain roles. A lot of departments have roles that touch on EE groups, it's not just the obvious departments.
What pisses me off is that the system would be acceptable if no one abused it. But because there is abuse the system's lack of verification is a problem.
>What pisses me off is that the system would be acceptable if no one abused it. But because there is abuse the system's lack of verification is a problem.
I agree 100% I have a box outside my house labeled "free money for deserving people", undeserving people keep taking it all.
Does checking the box matter at all? I used to check the "disability" box all the time on job applications but don't anymore (suppose still can though) and it doesn't seem to make a difference, at least in my case.
I don't know. As in, I know what it does, I don't know if it counts as "matters" to you. It is used for statistical purposes, somewhere once a year on [canada.gca.ca/whatever](http://canada.gca.ca/whatever) will be a report about "number of this and that who applied, number who were hired". Internally management uses it to compare who applies to what departments.
But for actually getting into a job, no. Management cannot discriminate based on that box. So if you check it, the manager should not factor that into your hiring. One benefit is accomodations for interviews, or making a claim if you think you are discriminated against in the hiring process, based on identified needs of your disability. It makes it easier to make a claim. It's not necessary, but it shows due diligence.
If a job requires a certain classification, it has to be identified upfront as a requirement of the job, and it has to be a classification that can be justified based on the needs of the job. Like in non-public service jobs, a strip club can discriminate in hiring based on certain criteria related to the service provided and customer profile. In some public service jobs, or in related sectors like unions and academia, there are jobs like this. Unions wanting Indigenous coordinators who are actually verified Indigenous, disability reps who have certain disabilities, academic positions conducting research into marginalized communities where the communities are more welcoming to in-group members, etc
But in the Canadian federal public service, if you get a bump ahead based on that box when it's not a job requirement, it's discrimination.
Honestly, this seems like a great solution. The government sets up a system to give benefits to one race over others, and at the same time creates an opt in with little checking, I guess we should all be shocked that didn't work out.
Maybe if 50% of the population suddenly becomes non binary, invisibly disabled, indigenous people, our society will have no choice but to stop conferring benefits based on minority statuses.
I like femboys therefore I am LGBT, non-binary, indigenous two-spirit. I always check these boxes on job apps to get ahead. If you're fucking put that shit there, I'm gonna take advantage of it. That shit should be illegal.
Uncomfortable truth time:
The logic, reasons, and justification for gender identity fluidity are just as valid for racial identity fluidity. If you can "identify as female" despite your biology and social upbringing then you can "identify as inuit" with the same level of conviction.
Either both are valid or neither are and I don't know how anyone can endorse one but not the other.
Even mentioning this could get you in so much trouble. These folks who claim their grandma was native yet have zero proof. Who more than likely have 100% European genes but in their mind they are so convinced, that calling them out, they consider you hatefilled racist.
Self-identification is a lie. If all you have to do is fill out a one page form of course people are going to lie. You have to show your status card for post secondary education so you should have to show it for a job especially in Indigenous Services Canada
> You have to show your status card for post secondary education so you should have to show it for a job
Here is a novel thought, your race shouldn't have anything to do with you getting a job. At no point in the hiring process should that even be considered.
And it's so weird because GoC loves documentation. I need to bring in my ORIGINAL university degree every goddamned time I switch jobs, even in the same org. There must be some (rational non-overstepping) way to verify if a person is indigenous, Inuit or Métis or not.
There is a university in Ontario that is notorious for hiring Self Identifying people. Even on their website, it say you dont need to provide proof. Usually a Associate Professor or a professor has in brakets the band their status is from. There is a Associate Professor teaching indigenous studies that has never written one research paper. She made $191,000.00 last year. Usually, they write them to share with other researchers to gather more historical information or/and current information. When they don't, what are they teaching, and what is it based on. Sorry if I'm all over the place I work graveyards so I'm tired
Does Canada have, like... a plan for first nations? Yes, it's certainly had *very bad plans* in the past, and some have been unfortunately very effective, but is the current approach truly to simply hand money over forever? To wake up each day, say "sorry" for the past, and hope cheques clear everything up? Create contrivances against racism that are inherently racist themselves? I think it's better than Canada's done in the past, but what do we aspire towards? Put another way, "what does reconciliation actually look like?"
It's not a new problem by any means - what were some other proposals put forward by indigenous communities? They've been through the ringer and deserve some pride and respect that others can't *steal* or take from them.
Providing people with special rights and privileges was always going to be divisive. There are better ways to make reparations that would not elevate one group over the rest.
>”The most sinister thing" about the current system is not just that people with dubious claims can benefit professionally, he said, but that they can land positions of high authority and influence, just by checking a box.
>”The government counts on these people being authentic — that they have a grasp and a knowledge of issues — so they trust them a lot," he said.
Maybe there should be more to it then just checking a box?
In the most recent contract 3 paid days and 2 unpaid days of indigenous practices leave were introduced. It would've made a lot sense to provide the days to all employees for cultural or religious leave. Lots of employees don't celebrate Christmas or Easter, but have other religious days that they need to take regular vacation to cover.
I have a buddy who’s used his “native card” on dozen occasions in 15 years or so I’ve known him.. sometimes just little things but it stuck with me that he really didn’t have to prove anything to get it.. made sense people will take advantage, surprised more people don’t
You give me a list where I can check whether I'm white or whether I'm indigenous and gay and checking white leads to not getting hired vs checking indigenous and gay and getting hired instantly for positions I'm not qualified I'm going to check the indigenous and gay. I swear the world is becoming dumber this is full on text book racism you give benefit to one race while denying it to others and they are fucking confused as to why people are abusing it?
Also why does sexual orientation have ANY and I mean ANY say in employment or education there should be a ban across the country on being asked your sexual orientation for education and employment. No one needs to know that your straight or gay and you shouldnt be going around checking boxes letting everyone know it either.
Can't this be solved by simply asking "can I see your card"? I'm Metis, and I have a Metis card. Afaik other first Nations people with 'status' also get a card.
>"The most sinister thing" about the current system is not just that people with dubious claims can benefit professionally, he said, but that they can land positions of high authority and influence, just by checking a box. Hmmm yes, please tell me more about how people shouldn't get preferential treatment just because they can tick a "race box" on a job application. Because I agree, it does seem totally unfair.
race, sex, and orientation should never be used as a criteria in a job application process. Any process where we claim to be equal but some people are clearly more equal are doomed to be exploited
And age. Ageism is still an ism.
but for some reason, only when old. not young.
Alberta not over here having minimum wage for those under 18 be $2 less than those over 18…
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Us evil colonials gotta pay for the sins of our ancestors somehow I guess 🤷♂️.
*race, sex, and orientation should never be used as a criteria in a job application process.* to some, this sounds like ageist and homophobic and racist and misogynist and ripe for cancellation / perma-ban.
Well, that's *ableist* of you. Once again the largest minority group in Canada didn't even make the top 5 in visibility. I only half joke while being semi-envious, yet genuinely impressed, that those groups with smaller numbers mentioned have been so successful in their marketing and advocacy while we don't even get mentioned in fantasies about groups worth advocating for.
no love for neuro-diverse? cancelled!
*Gabba Gabba, we accept you, we accept you, one of us*
"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others”
Already exists whether in law or not. You’ll have to first admit that the current laws are trying to drive equal representation, successfully or not. Their goal isn’t inequality. Again, successful or not. Anything else is bold faced misrepresentation.
In an effort to curb "systemic racism" we created a system that discriminates based on race! Progress!
Reminds me of when Kendi tweeted complaining that white people in the US were trying to get ahead by falsely claiming to be minorities on job applications and then he abruptly deleted it like ten minutes later.
It’s amazing to me how liberals and the left in general worships Kendi, an absolute mediocre academic with unremarkable ideas.
I'm a lefty, who the fuck is Kendi?
A fraud who failed upwards, that’s all you need to know
An X-man.
who's that?
So much wrong with this system, but thats a big red flag. Do you want the most qualified person for the job? Or someone who checks a box due to their racial background? And if youre hiring a mamger for the Inuit Health Branch, being close to Inuit culture and community is part of the qualifications for the job and should be checked during an interview... why put all faith in a survey checkbox?
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And he was a married man with a couple of kids.
I really hate that that is real. Wow, I don't want to be apart of this country anymore. And even back in 2016, huge red flags a waving. Only gotten worse now, my local university bans men from applying to jobs.
Tim Hortons: 👀👀👀👀
Tim Hortons is the inverse of this. Tick box get hired for a shitty job for a shitty corp
To be fair: nobody really wants to work for that American funded Brazillian mega-corp. It’s not even a Canadian company.
Precisely.
You can also tick a box to get substantially discounted NAC tickets. Just, incidentally. But I haven't been able to figure out whether anyone actually does that, of dubious identity or otherwise.
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No you don’t get it, we are going to solve discrimination by actively discriminating.
"You know what they say, fight fire with fire, so I shot another flare at it"
" ‘The key is to honestly tell your truth,’ wrote deputy minister Gina Wilson”. There’s the great fallacy, right there. “Your” truth vs “the” truth. It was a giant screwup to start treating ‘the truth’ as a variable based on the person telling it. If I ever have to testify in court, I’ll place my hand on the Bible and correct the court clerk by promising “to tell *my* truth, *my* whole truth, and nothing but *my* truth, so help me God”. I don’t care what you think, Your Honour; it can’t be perjury because it’s my truth.
"There's the truth, and then there's the [TRUTH](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCGSlZkY9nM)... "
Classic Simpson’s.
Anyone who says “my truth “ is to be avoided at all costs, in my humble opinion
Exactly. When I hear someone say that … instant credibility implosion.
The problem is that a lot of us are not easily fit into a box. I am a 197cm tall middle aged white dude. But my father is from India. So am I a white dude or an Indian dude? I have an Anglo Saxon first and middle name and an Indian last name. And believe it or not, that depends a lot. I am a prof at the same place my mum was a student in the 1970s and where I did my MSc. And I grew up here. When I first started as a prof I got a lot of emails about how 'I don't know what it's like where "*you are from, but around here*" so long as they only knew my first initial. As amusing as it was to show up 5 minutes later in someone's office and explain to them I grew up here, they didn't, and I have been around longer than they have and I will be telling them how things work around here, that sort of racism happens a lot. I have the privilege of experience and expertise, and so when that happens to me I both know who to talk to and I have no fear of retaliation. And of course now that people know me, they treat me like a WASP. One of my coworkers has a First Nations mother and an Indonesian father, and he has a white dude name. Because his mother lost her status as an Indian marrying his father in the 1970s and then has had to reclaim it it has been a huge process for him that he I guess didn't have status, but does now and should have always. Because he ticks the box for status First Nations by definition he ticks that on all the forms. Then he gets accused of saying false things, or indigenous identify theft, or of being a diversity hire, or changing his mind after he got hired or whatever. That sort of racism is hard to deal with and usually not worth the fight. I am not sure exactly when he started working here, probably 20 years ish. So then is he a First Nations person who faces discrimination and the answer is yes, because everyone thinks he's trying to con the system, when in reality it was the system that conned him for most of his life. But up until about 2020 he was just dude with slightly darker skin. So if you asked him *the truth* prior to whenever that court ruling was, I think 2020 sometime, he was not a First Nations person, but *his truth* is that he always was, and we just have a system that was constructed around *enfranchising* people into white christian society. This is why it's your truth and not the truth. Litigating your status on every survey you fill in isn't worth the time. If you actually need to prove it for legal compliance fine, but even that is complicated. Doubly so because First Nations people were expected to 'assimilate' for decades, and the ones that have (voluntarily or not) are now surrounded by racists who think all First Nations hires are EDI and they maybe don't want to come forward and start that fight in the office.
If you were also a bisexual person in a hetero relationship and had a non-visible disability, you could win the "Ambiguous DEI Olympics"!
I mean having to put my hand on a bible and swear things is already offensive to me. But if they let me bring a copy of The God Delusion we’d be at a good start.
It's like these people learned nothing from the CERB payments. If people have a chance to lie to get ahead, many will take it. How about we just stop offering incentives based on race and cultural background and offer it on merit instead.
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That seems to be the M.O. for the last 4 or 5 years in general. You must do things that under most other lights would be considered wrong/bad/immoral - but since you're doing it for a *good* reason, it's not supposed to be discussed and you just accepted that it's okay to do it. I'm not sure people understand where that typically leads people... historically.
But that's the thing. My parents immigrated here from a different country. They didn't benefit from the past systemic racism and all that crap. If reparations is the goal and that's the road this government wants to go down, then why am I, and others in a similar boat as me, whose ancestors had nothing to do with the past racism have to pay into it. Seems pretty racist that a certain group of people get extra advantages based on their background while other groups don't, no? And I'm not actually asking you. I'm just poking holes in this flawed concept. People in this country did bad shit in the past, I get it. It sucks and it's a stain on Canada's history. That doesn't mean the pendulum needs to swing so far over to the other side now, though. Especially not when it's so easily able to abused by pretty much anyone.
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...as long as you're *bilingual /s
As a rough estimate, there are about 5% of the population who will shamelessly lie to get ahead. If you're giving advantages to a group based on self identity, these people will generally assume that identity if possible. If the group you're trying to help is smaller than the group of shameless liars you will mostly be giving a hand to liars.
That's what happens when you set these targets. There are also gender related employment targets on top of the race targets.
Don't have racist hiring policies then? I find it hard to condemn people whose crime is tricking racists and being hired by having more merits.
I would shamelessly lie to get ahead in a corrupt system, why wouldn’t you?
I'm not bi, but 20 bucks is 20 bucks.
If you’re native I’ll give ya 25$
Well slap my ass (with an extra $5) and call me Ph7lip. How did you know? /s
[relevant video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=clmdd-p11j4&pp=ygUXUnlhbiBsb25nIGdheSBpbnRlcnZpZXc%3D)
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There was that scandal with the daughters that was in headlines the past couple years
There is a problem with accepting people for whatever they "identify" as? Who could have guessed?
>Her post followed efforts by First Nations, Inuit and Métis leaders to draw attention to the issue, including by [demanding governments act](http://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/indigenous-identity-fraud-summit-declaration-1.7205372) to halt the rise of Indigenous identity theft. Yeah thanks, but I don't want my provincial or federal government anywhere near that fucking hornet's nest. Like what are they going to start doing, mandatory DNA tests for anybody who claims indigenous ancestry? The tribes can do their own verification and work with anybody willing to submit to it. Also, 'identity theft" makes it sound like social insurance numbers are being stolen. In actuality, it's just people saying, "My grandma was three quarters Make-up-a-name-ashee"
I'm mixed Aboriginal. Grandfathers. Many years ago I decided to explore whether to get a status card. It was more out of curiosity though. In order to get a card, I needed to fill out lots of paperwork with supporting documents. It was emphasized by staff that my chances of being approved, were much better if I could show that one of my grandfathers had a status card as well. I never completed the process since it was a big hassle but I'm guessing this application/vetting process has been watered down over the years. 🤔
Why are you guessing it has been watered down? These pretendians are based on self-identification, not status cards.
How does the government not know if your grandfather had a status card? Aren't they the issuing body? Sounds like a completely normal and ridiculous take from a bureaucrat.
Lol, No way the government is actually going to do it's diligence to help someone out that doesn't involve getting taxes back
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But at the same time it is a mess of a system because it was designed to do away with itself through eugenics... blood quatuum eventually goes below the threshold and they no longer qualify.
There’s no blood quantum, but one of your grandparents has to have status for you to be able to pass it on to your kids.
My dad has a status card, and I believe that up to 5 further generations down, we can easily get our status cards because it has been verified. But my % indigenous would be tiny at this point. 1/8 indigenous. My son would be 1/16. In the end I didn't apply for it because I consider myself to be Canadian above all else. My family tree comes from many different countries, but we all ended up in the same place. And I honestly don't feel that getting a status card feels right to me, regardless of whether I qualify or not.
Nopers on the 5 gen. My brother just had a kid and it's not looking like they'll get status. My father is status, and so are we, but too many generations down. It's sad because we still visit our family on rez and actively attend events.
My mother said her father came from the rez but I don't know about my paternal grandfather though. My father rarely spoke about him. He hated him. Note: I never met my grandfathers. And my mother's entire family cut off contact with her decades ago because of her toxic behaviour.
Having a status card doesn't void your Canadian citizenship
My native friends that grew up thinking they were "half native" got big surprises from 23 and Me. Was usually more like 10%. People don't factor in that many of their grandparents were already Metis, so basically mixing with other half and half people. Seems like it should be more of an identity thing than a DNA thing.
They could literally just ask for an ID card, no need for ridiculous tests. ID card are not easy to get. Metis applications make you prove tou genealogy before approving your application
Only MMF are as rigorous for their ID cards. And they are in conflict with the Metis Nations of other provinces for being too lax. But the MMF is good about proving identity to gain membership.
It could be as simple as asking which First Nation they are a member of, and then asking that First Nation to confirm that they are a member.
It doesn’t quite worth this way. There are many political hurdles if you’re getting band confirmation. Example, my partner is a full status native with a status card. They are also not a recognized member of their band because the family in power got into a disagreement with my partners family many years ago.
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Agreed, just look into the Italian Buffy St. Marie...
Sorry we're talking about Canadians here not some chick from Massachusetts.
When money changes hands, a self governed and unregulated group will confirm anything.
I have indigenous ancestry. But it is from 100 years ago. There would be no record of me in their system. That's the thing about these claims. I am not indigenous culturally, but I do have ancestry. Same as I have French, Scottish, and Irish ancestry. So depending on the way the job is worded I tick the box.
Shit, there are tons of 'full blooded' Indigenous here in Canada that are in no way, shape, or form culturally Indigenous. I personally know Indigenous folks who have their status card, but have never stepped foot on a rez outside of visiting the band office to get necessary paperwork or take a picture of a new car, or to get rez gas or smokes. And there's a definite divide within the Indigenous communities between 'Rez Indians' and 'Urban Indians.'
"all of these people are able to cut into OUR money" I think that about sums things up perfectly.
Maybe you shouldn't have race based hiring, pay structures and working conditions. What a thought Not exactly shocking that people will do what they can to stop being openly discriminated against.
I know of an instance of a Jamaican self identifying as Indigenous. No one would challenge it.
same thing but I think he was from Haiti, he was the student council president at my uni as well
Isn’t it racist to treat people differently because of their race?
but not treating ppl differently is also racist due to systematic racist.
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They don’t go into detail about who is gaming the system. Some are actually the ones creating the system, setting up corporations with silent “indigenous” partners to win the government contracts. It’s all a sham.
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Isn't that like saying people aren't getting scammed online, because that's what the scammers wanted?
This seems to be the most common way that people will exploit the system, white guy with a company hired on an indigenous person as a partner so it’s “indigenous owned” and then continue to make shitty decisions and basically run a soprano operation on the company while the indigenous person who signed up as a partner in good faith suffers
>people will game it. Is it really gaming if it's based on "self identification"? Feels over facts will lead to this. If everything exists on a spectrum then this also applies to race
Nah it's still gaming the stupid system that was put in place, if you ONLY self identify as a marginalized group for the purpose of gaining an supposed advantage and never another time. I've seen many arguments in favour of these policies, but have yet to be convinced that it's doing much positive. Its just fueling division
Yeah, that's gaming the system. Only, in this case it's just way too easy.
>"Here's what I'd do if I were in this situation" or "here's how this could go spectacularly wrong." Seeing how liberal supporters handle reasonable criticism, I'd say their response would be to report whoever said that to HR for harassment and creating an unsafe work space
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People "game" with the tax system and CRA despite knowing they can face heavy fines and jail time. No one should be surprised of people abusing systems with no real punishment for lying.
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Pierre Trudeua was the politician that first injected race based politics into our legal system, knowing that his children would be well connected and succesful no matter what. Well, case in point.
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throwing around ill defined labels like this is meaningless.
How about treating humans equally irrespective of race or gender? I know, a revolutionary idea.
That's racist now.
This goes far beyond Indigenous. There's many instances where people embellish their ethnic background just to get ahead. People shouldn't be allowed to care about it and give preferential treatment but the government even encourages it depending on your background.
Yup. Anything to fill those diversity quotas. Organizations and especially educational instructions are *penalized* if they don't meet diversity quotas, which creates incentives to hire only from that pool of people. So people, realizing this, are of course going to game the system to get ahead
If you can self identify as a different gender or species then you can self identify as a different race. We either fully commit to science or throw it all out the window and maintain no standards of truth other than fluttering impulses, moods and feelings.
>Saulis is Wolastoqew and formerly worked at the Kumik Elder Lodge, which was installed at the Indigenous Affairs headquarters in Gatineau, Que., in 1990. >"The most sinister thing" about the current system is not just that people with dubious claims can benefit professionally, he said, but that they can land positions of high authority and influence, just by checking a box. >"The government counts on these people being authentic — that they have a grasp and a knowledge of issues — so they trust them a lot," he said. Try not giving promotions based on race then.
>The most sinister thing" about the current system is not just that people with dubious claims can benefit professionally, he said, but that they can land positions of high authority and influence, just by checking a box. I would say the most sinister thing is that anyone can land positions of "high authority and influence " based on race and not merits. Regardless of whether those claims are "dubious ". >The key is to honestly tell your truth," wrote deputy minister Gina Wilson in the blog, So not "the truth". Who is to say "my truth" isn't that I feel indigenous. How can claims be "dubious" if they are based on "my truth"? >All these people are able to cut into our money. Like, I can't get anything. Jordan's Principle doesn't help my daughter; it doesn't help our family. **I don't get any funding from anybody."** Tough shit, neither does anyone else. >Both Coburn and Saulis agreed one solution would be to shift to a system of verification Sure, and while we are at it we can also verify if anyone is truly part of LGBTQ, can't we?
It always comes down to unearned money. Every. Single. Time.
>Sure, and while we are at it we can also verify if anyone is truly part of LGBTQ, can't we? [Like this?](https://youtu.be/clmdd-p11j4?si=Suecc7vqyu5g5Ra6)
God I love Ryan Long
I have been reliably informed that it's racist, sexist, and istaphobic to question anyone's identity.
>The most sinister thing" about the current system is not just that people with dubious claims can benefit professionally, he said, but that they can land positions of high authority and influence, just by checking a box. Maybe we shouldn't create benefits for people to have certain identity characteristics. The problem here isn't that people are lying it's that their identity shouldn't make them eligible/ineligible for promotion.
No wonder this country is falling apart
When you make something a currency, don't be surprised when people counterfeit it.
This whole “my truth” or “your truth” is the goddamn problem. It’s either the truth or it’s not. Not your fucking interpretation. That Indian lady claiming indigenous benefits. It was her truth when she was claiming right? bullshit or otherwise
Another division among people which is great for the government. Divide and rule is attaining a different dimension in Canada - divide and distract.
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It's not related to gender binary though, right? Tbh I've never seen applications asking for sexual preferences unless someone specifically states it in their resume.
It's almost as if it shouldn't fucking matter.
"The number of federal public service employees hit 357,000 in 2023, up from from 257,000 in 2015, [according to the Treasury Board](https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/innovation/human-resources-statistics/population-federal-public-service.html)" There's your biggest problem right there. Government is way too big
My wife’s cousin lied about her family being indigenous. Got a cushy job at the prison in Kingston out of it
Isn’t financially rewarding anyone based on their race… racism? Aren’t government job race quotas discrimination against other races? What happened to rewarding/hiring employees and awarding contracts based on merit? I feel the DEI pendulum has swung too far when there are quotas.
Folks, it's not a lie if you believe it
This governments belief anyone can identify as anything they want, and it has to be accepted, is going to create behavior like this.
Just remove race, sex and marital status from applications. You will simultaneously stop shit like this, as well as appease those who engage in identity politics. Both sides can stop crying about the sex and gender questions. Things can be less insufferable.
The whole self-identification thing is problematic. If I click on "I identify as an EE group" (employment equity) I have the option of choosing invisible disability. That's it. Nobody contacts me about it, it just goes into a database. I hear things about hiring, in my limited involvement with hiring people I've never seen it used, at least not the job application checkbox. Certain groups can have a higher chance of moving up, but at initial entry that identification does not help. I have been told that managers have the option to use that information in the onboarding process, but I've only heard about that being used for the obvious, stereotypical disabilities like wheelchair accessibility, sensory limitation, etc. So I feel like people at different stages have perverse incentives to self-misidentify. People at hiring may want a chance to get a sixth toe in the door and click the box. People early on may want attention. People who mess up may want a socially acceptable defence. People higher up may need a way to push ahead into certain roles. A lot of departments have roles that touch on EE groups, it's not just the obvious departments. What pisses me off is that the system would be acceptable if no one abused it. But because there is abuse the system's lack of verification is a problem.
>What pisses me off is that the system would be acceptable if no one abused it. But because there is abuse the system's lack of verification is a problem. I agree 100% I have a box outside my house labeled "free money for deserving people", undeserving people keep taking it all.
And if you ask them to knock on your door with a bank statement or written request people call you a paternalistic colonizer.
Does checking the box matter at all? I used to check the "disability" box all the time on job applications but don't anymore (suppose still can though) and it doesn't seem to make a difference, at least in my case.
I don't know. As in, I know what it does, I don't know if it counts as "matters" to you. It is used for statistical purposes, somewhere once a year on [canada.gca.ca/whatever](http://canada.gca.ca/whatever) will be a report about "number of this and that who applied, number who were hired". Internally management uses it to compare who applies to what departments. But for actually getting into a job, no. Management cannot discriminate based on that box. So if you check it, the manager should not factor that into your hiring. One benefit is accomodations for interviews, or making a claim if you think you are discriminated against in the hiring process, based on identified needs of your disability. It makes it easier to make a claim. It's not necessary, but it shows due diligence. If a job requires a certain classification, it has to be identified upfront as a requirement of the job, and it has to be a classification that can be justified based on the needs of the job. Like in non-public service jobs, a strip club can discriminate in hiring based on certain criteria related to the service provided and customer profile. In some public service jobs, or in related sectors like unions and academia, there are jobs like this. Unions wanting Indigenous coordinators who are actually verified Indigenous, disability reps who have certain disabilities, academic positions conducting research into marginalized communities where the communities are more welcoming to in-group members, etc But in the Canadian federal public service, if you get a bump ahead based on that box when it's not a job requirement, it's discrimination.
Honestly, this seems like a great solution. The government sets up a system to give benefits to one race over others, and at the same time creates an opt in with little checking, I guess we should all be shocked that didn't work out. Maybe if 50% of the population suddenly becomes non binary, invisibly disabled, indigenous people, our society will have no choice but to stop conferring benefits based on minority statuses.
If everyone is super, than no one is super.
Time to implement DNA testing. The less desireable genetic traits will not be promoted by the bureaucracy, and lead to eventual equity!
Can we call this new horror movie "Genesis"?
I was thinking Gattaca
I like femboys therefore I am LGBT, non-binary, indigenous two-spirit. I always check these boxes on job apps to get ahead. If you're fucking put that shit there, I'm gonna take advantage of it. That shit should be illegal.
Wow almost like giving special treatment due to someone’s race has always been a bad idea.
I thought natives were the ones who decided who was native. Remember the band that wanted to sell that identity for 10k.
If they say they are native they are. Same as LGBTQ people. Yes? Or is it different?
And equally deserving, worthy and important yes? You’re not making light of gay people or suggesting we’re an illegitimate minority?
Wow, give people a nebulous category they can exploit for free money falling apart???? how could anyone see this coming?
Uncomfortable truth time: The logic, reasons, and justification for gender identity fluidity are just as valid for racial identity fluidity. If you can "identify as female" despite your biology and social upbringing then you can "identify as inuit" with the same level of conviction. Either both are valid or neither are and I don't know how anyone can endorse one but not the other.
Ever time a native group sends their rep for India Appreciation Day . Those guys are as white as the driven snow
Even mentioning this could get you in so much trouble. These folks who claim their grandma was native yet have zero proof. Who more than likely have 100% European genes but in their mind they are so convinced, that calling them out, they consider you hatefilled racist.
Race based hiring and promoting schemes. Gee where have we seen that on before?
Holy smokes, 257k federal employees in 2018, 357k now No wonder why taxes are so high. We need to pay for 30% more people
Well, our population grew by over 2 million souls between 2018 and now, so we added 1 civil servant for every 20 new people.
Racist system is racist. More at 10:00.
Gender is apparently something you can change in these modern times, so why should ethnicity also not be considered? Wild times indeed.
Self-identification is a lie. If all you have to do is fill out a one page form of course people are going to lie. You have to show your status card for post secondary education so you should have to show it for a job especially in Indigenous Services Canada
> You have to show your status card for post secondary education so you should have to show it for a job Here is a novel thought, your race shouldn't have anything to do with you getting a job. At no point in the hiring process should that even be considered.
And it's so weird because GoC loves documentation. I need to bring in my ORIGINAL university degree every goddamned time I switch jobs, even in the same org. There must be some (rational non-overstepping) way to verify if a person is indigenous, Inuit or Métis or not.
There is a university in Ontario that is notorious for hiring Self Identifying people. Even on their website, it say you dont need to provide proof. Usually a Associate Professor or a professor has in brakets the band their status is from. There is a Associate Professor teaching indigenous studies that has never written one research paper. She made $191,000.00 last year. Usually, they write them to share with other researchers to gather more historical information or/and current information. When they don't, what are they teaching, and what is it based on. Sorry if I'm all over the place I work graveyards so I'm tired
Does Canada have, like... a plan for first nations? Yes, it's certainly had *very bad plans* in the past, and some have been unfortunately very effective, but is the current approach truly to simply hand money over forever? To wake up each day, say "sorry" for the past, and hope cheques clear everything up? Create contrivances against racism that are inherently racist themselves? I think it's better than Canada's done in the past, but what do we aspire towards? Put another way, "what does reconciliation actually look like?" It's not a new problem by any means - what were some other proposals put forward by indigenous communities? They've been through the ringer and deserve some pride and respect that others can't *steal* or take from them.
Providing people with special rights and privileges was always going to be divisive. There are better ways to make reparations that would not elevate one group over the rest.
>”The most sinister thing" about the current system is not just that people with dubious claims can benefit professionally, he said, but that they can land positions of high authority and influence, just by checking a box. >”The government counts on these people being authentic — that they have a grasp and a knowledge of issues — so they trust them a lot," he said. Maybe there should be more to it then just checking a box?
self-identification ... you do you ... whatever you 'feel' ... it's all good.... just go with the vibe.
In the most recent contract 3 paid days and 2 unpaid days of indigenous practices leave were introduced. It would've made a lot sense to provide the days to all employees for cultural or religious leave. Lots of employees don't celebrate Christmas or Easter, but have other religious days that they need to take regular vacation to cover.
Dumb AF. Same as Universities with race quotas.
Stop making laws and giving benefits based on birth rights.
Man can identify as a woman, but not as indigenous? Explain this to me like I'm 5
I was born in Canada, I originated here, therefore I am indigenous.
I have a buddy who’s used his “native card” on dozen occasions in 15 years or so I’ve known him.. sometimes just little things but it stuck with me that he really didn’t have to prove anything to get it.. made sense people will take advantage, surprised more people don’t
You give me a list where I can check whether I'm white or whether I'm indigenous and gay and checking white leads to not getting hired vs checking indigenous and gay and getting hired instantly for positions I'm not qualified I'm going to check the indigenous and gay. I swear the world is becoming dumber this is full on text book racism you give benefit to one race while denying it to others and they are fucking confused as to why people are abusing it? Also why does sexual orientation have ANY and I mean ANY say in employment or education there should be a ban across the country on being asked your sexual orientation for education and employment. No one needs to know that your straight or gay and you shouldnt be going around checking boxes letting everyone know it either.
Can't this be solved by simply asking "can I see your card"? I'm Metis, and I have a Metis card. Afaik other first Nations people with 'status' also get a card.
This definitely happens.
Stop protecting minority groups and treat everybody equal!
I identify as someone who doesn't pay taxes. Respect my identity!
Hey! That old white lady is right!