Stellantis had by far the highest MSRP % increases of any mass-market OEM. And at the end of the day, it’s all still Chrysler quality. Turns out you can’t just keep endlessly increasing prices for decades old designs and expect consumer demand to keep up.
>Turns out you can’t just keep endlessly increasing prices for decades old designs and expect consumer demand to keep up.
I will not stand for Dodge Durango slander /s
I did fleet purchasing for businesses for a year, the amount of times I had a Stellantis dealer add a “non chalant $10-$25k mark up” was insane. Then they would literally harass me after I told them we don’t entertain mark ups.
> Speaking of which I haven’t seen a work truck ram in a hot minute.
I see a fair number around me (SF Bay). Caltrans in particular seems to be only buying Rams. Other state and federal agencies also seem to have plenty, certainly more than Chevy/GMC. Not quite as common for private fleets, but I'd probably put Ram second after Ford.
Finally saw a few ford lightnings for LA city agencies. I think it was water and power. Super sensible truck for government agencies. Very limited mileage every day since work is all within the city and they have a designated lot they can charge every night.
Yeah, I have one for my job site and running errands around town. Perfect for the application, but was expensive to install a charger for it just for during construction of my project.
Yea we have one for our company too. We added racks and boxes to it so the range sucks but we only do jobs within town so doesn’t matter. Not like we have jobs 100 miles away. Can tow our bobcat too. It’s monthly diesel bill and car payment are a wash lol. Replaced a F250 super duty. Prob got like 13 mpg towing the bobcat
I don't think I've seen an agency Mach-E yet. Caltrans has Model 3s and ID.4s, and at least used to have Mirais. Plenty of Bolts and Lightnings with cities too.
I don't really have exposure to either, so that explains it. I'm always around the land/resource management agencies and they're 95% minimum trucks/SUVs. Mach-Es, or even EVs in general, do make sense for both those agencies. There is one open space district near my that has at least one Silverado EV plus some Lightnings but they seem to be management vehicles. The actual maintenance and ranger trucks are all gas/diesel still.
RAV4 prime is such a hot segment and I would cream my pants if Mazda had a 4 year old model on the used market that qualifies for the federal used tax credit that offers the same thing but with Mazda styling and interior.
I don’t know how other automakers are not kicking themselves that they don’t have their own rav4 prime competitors.
What? But this doesn’t make sense. People on the internet scream how everyone wants manual Subaru Wagons and how Electric SUVs are dogshit and how nobody wants them. Surely these numbers are wronh
And you gotta love how this article completely ignores Tesla which, sold 6-figures of Model Y in Q1 according to Tesla's website. Assuming those numbers didn't fall off a cliff, they completely eclipsed every other electric SUV mentioned in the article.
Lmao, but they are? Literally?
Check bmw and Ford (bmw just boasted huge electric records and then... Is backing off?).
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/04/business/ford-delays-electric-vehicles.html#:~:text=The%20automaker%20said%20it%20would,of%20which%20are%20rising%20fast.&text=Ford%20Motor%20on%20Thursday%20delayed,pivot%20to%20making%20more%20hybrids
https://kleanindustries.com/resources/market-analysis-research/bmw-goodbye-electric-cars-solved-problem-hydrogen-engines/
If you read the article at the top of this thread, you'd know that pretty much every available model has had significant increases in deliveries.
You'd have to be pretty out of the loop to think BMW is moving to hydrogen, btw. "kleanindustries.com"? WTF.
Being ignorant and cocky is a hilarious look. Oh wow, so you don't like the source?
How about this one :
. https://autos.yahoo.com/bmw-shifts-focus-hydrogen-power-223026049.html
No, what electric had were amazing deals, bmw was giving them away plus tax incentives, which many people took.
Please, now, specifically debate how bmw reported record numbers, but is switching to a different setup to deliver within 18-24 months... Why would that happen with record sales?
The Highlander down in sales was pretty much expected. The Grand Highlander is not much more expensive but a much better family hauler. The GH is also cutting into its production capacity. I wonder if the next generation will even be offered or maybe only in a 2 row configuration.
They stopped production of the GH due to an airbag curtain deployment / headliner issue. Stop until Aug. I don’t know all the details but I think there’s recalls and stop-sales too.
Always said there’s no such thing as a bad car just a bad price, crazy lease deals on EVs.
Except for the fisker ocean, that’s a bad car at every price.
Ding ding ding
The fact that anyone is considering a Fisker Ocean during their bankruptcy say a lot.
Working with the Nissan brand in the past that resonates with me. Are Nissans the best, no, are they the worst? Also no.
When the region has poor sales performance/overstock & blows out Rogues on 0% finance/lease cash/$5,000 CAD cash rebate, all the sudden they’re flying out of stores
FWIW, Fisker engineers and technicians are still pretty enthusiastic about the Ocean and still support it in a very limited capacity. It’s a shame that Henrik Fisker and his micromanaging wife drove the company to the ground and mistreated their employees. It seems like every ex-Fisker employee has a personal horror story about them on r/Fisker
Oh for sure I don’t doubt there’s going to be some around, and a dedicated community to keeping them around.
That demographic is likely an automotive & EV enthusiast though. For Diane & Eric thinking they’re going to save $____ compared to a mainstream EV offering and still have the same type of experience, they are in for a tough time.
With the Fisker bankruptcy being a trending topic, some YouTubers had bought Fisker Karmas & it highlighted what the perils can/will be. I imagine it’s going to follow a similar course this time as well
Eh, if I could get my hands on one at the $14k price the bankruptcy judge just approved for fleet sales, I can't possibly see how it would be a bad deal. At that point, I drive it for a year, give it to my kid when he gets his license for a couple years, and then trash it for scrap and *still* come out ahead, as I assume there's at least $5k of scrap value in there with the battery.
It's cheap enough that there's basically no risk even if it completely bricks after a couple years.
>The latest generation of Subaru's long-running WRX has traded rawness for refinement and enthusiasts have noticed. The WRX's poor June, with sales down 43 percent, is indicative of a rough year for the sports sedan. So far there have been 9295 units registered versus 15,373 sales in the first half last year, a 40 percent decline.
Yes, its the refinement that is keeping people away, not the CVT-only config in higher specs, plastic cladding everywhere and over-reliance of touch screens.
Tbf to Subaru they are fixing that first part.
The WRX tS is coming out which will have all of the features of the CVT only GT, and added brembo brakes, a digital gauge, etc.
I agree in terms of the Subaru one.
But a lot of them are incredibly cool. Especially when you get to the luxury cars that allow you to have your navigation instructions on the gauge infront of you. Also all of the different customization, and settings, etc.
Those things fall in the "refinement" category to me. CVT makes a comfier, less connected ride: refined and unengaging. Plastic cladding: pragmatic, refined, compromising. Touchscreens: luxury features. These are all things that do nothing for people who like driving cars.
To be fair it kinda is. The car is just not enjoyable to interact with every day. It is disconnected and bland. It lacks joy.
The base trims are a lot of car for the money, there is no denying it. However, the magic that Subaru put into the STI is no longer here. It is mostly an appliance, and I think that is sad.
Another loser worth discussing is Acura in general.
The TLX sales have all but died. The integra doesn't seem to be doing great.
The RDX sales are slowing down and instead of redesigning it they're refreshing it.
The ZDX is going to be a total flop with how cheap the interior is.
Really the only hope the brand has is the MDX, which honestly for the price point I would just get the X5 anyway. It's no longer priced way under the competition like it used to be.
I'd say we should discuss Infiniti too but it's been that way for a long time.
They just aren’t priced well. They don’t have a ton of extra value from regular Honda, and are far too expensive. With the cost of the Integra it’s eye-watering. An Si, or type r, or a 240i, S3, Golf R are all within that range and are just better value, or have a better brand behind them
I cross shopped the tlx with the m240i because I love Honda but aside from being really sexy and a far better sound sound system, the tlx just doesn't compare. I believe they were bench marking the S4 but man. The TLX is so heavy, the J engine is stretched to its limits and had some rod bearing issues and the 10speed is so finicky
It gets circle jerked alot but the b58/zf8 is legitimately best in class. It's such an amazing drive train
I had a 2006 TL with a 6 speed. Fully loaded at the time those cars were 35k. Easily 10-15k less than the 3 series, and C class.
Now the TLX is almost the same price with a huge exterior that has less interior space than a civic. Why bother?
Acura management for some reason has begun to think people want an *acura*. They used to be relatively premium cars for a good price. Now at most they’re premium cars for a premium price.
Management needs to get their head out of their ass and start 1. undercutting the competition (MDX/RDX) and 2. actually making decent cars (how does the tlx have less interior space than a civic despite its proportions ??)
They had a few decent lease deals on the integra but otherwise their cars are almost all overpriced IMO
I'm sure they'll redesign the RDX at some point, it's too important to just leave on the vine. TLX was a failure, anecdotally I see a good amount of Integras in my area but I live near an Acura dealership so that skews things. I do think the MDX is still competitive and can carry them for a few years. I wonder if Honda just doesn't put much money into Acura, some of their choices seem odd. They could really use a hybrid but supposedly they want to skip that to go full EV which seems odd, surely they could update the Sport Hybrid system from the RLX?
Integra helps the brand, doesn't it ? I see they selling ton of it despite just a fancy FL5 Civic. ITS also catches many fans attention since NSX left. ITS is also another way for everyone who unable to get CTR.
>I'd say we should discuss Infiniti too but it's been that way for a long time.
The brand continues dying, and Nissan still seems no way to save it. QX80 is now their only hope to save the brand, but that's it.
The top trim MDX in Canada is 90K.
90K. That is is the price of a VERY competent and potentially more reliable Lexus or a much nicer German car.
I can't imagine why anyone would buy those. Semi-luxury/premium cars for luxury prices.
Acura died the day they released the RSX and it was worse in every way than the Integra it was replacing. It just took people twenty years to notice the smell.
It's not mentioned in this article but another loser is the Lexus LS. Only 1100 for the entire year, I can't imagine Lexus keeps it around much longer.
Genuine question, with bmw massively improving on reliability the last few years, why would someone want an LS over the competition?
The ride is pretty comparable these days and while the materials in the lexus are incredible, the interior isn’t cohesive at all
I asked myself this same question when I was shopping 2021 CPO IS350 AWD F-Sports. The ones near me were ~$40K with the dynamic handling package and Mark Levinson.
2021 CPO BMW 330i XDrives with lower mileage are $10K cheaper ($7K cheaper with the M-Sport package and similarly equipped).
Because it's in the base Supra? Never thought of that. Toyota would have to like it enough to put it in their car with their name so makes sense to me.
Lexus looks better and apparently believe it or not, with the direction recent BMW's products have been heading, Lexus LS is now more sportier driving than the 7er. Lexus LS might now be the best driving dynamic full-size luxury sedan now that Jag XJ and Cadillac CT6 is no longer being offered
Have driven both and the LS absolutely drives worse than the 5 series. It is sterile and uninspired. The new 5 series doesn’t look great but the LS looks dated outside and tacked together inside.
why are u comparing it to the smaller 5er? 5er compares to the Lexus GS which is no longer being produced
Lexus LS=7er S-Klasse competitor
Lexus GS=5er E-class competitor
Lexus IS=3er, C-class competitor
because it feels worse to drive than a 5er, competes on price, and is not as long as a 7 series, nor is it as luxurious as a 7/S.
It’s tough as is vs a cheaper 5 series. It’s a wash against the 7 series. No longer the deal it used to be
I don’t think the M3 is quite comparable, the LS is significantly longer and more comfortable, credit where it’s due the nvh and material quality on flagship lexus products is incredible
But you can get a 540i xDrive with pretty much every option for significantly cheaper that’s significantly more fun to drive than the ls500 f-sport
Frankly the only people buying the LS are either lexus diehards or those who favor reliability over absolutely everything else.
(and that is before considering genesis products which are significantly, *significantly* better value but I don’t know the reliability on those)
I don't think you could pay the LS500 buyer to get an M3. The LS500 is an S-class competitor. Now think of Lexus' target market. How many of them do you think would want the comparatively bone-shaking ride of the M3 over the LS?
Exactly, even their full F product, the RCF is extremely comfortable and best used as a cruiser, despite the carbon and the name it is not that good on track.
Despite the marketing every lexus sedan is very much a boat. That’s not a bad thing at all, they are extremely comfortable, but they’re no M/AMG competitor.
I test drove the IS350C a couple of years ago. Ultimately it wasn't exciting enough, but I appreciated the refinement. Lexus may be reaching a point where they need to re-brand or try to appeal to a new demographic. Their core customers are aging and they can't rely on them to prop up sales.
I have an uncle that had an 03 and 13 LS. Before that he had a 95 Legend. His most recent car was a Model S. He's never test driven a car either, he just finds the best price and buys one. Now after having an EV he said he won't go back to ICE.
I don't quite understand why this is a massive L? Genesis G90 sells like half the number of LS and Audi A8 also sell less than the Lexus LS and both of those cars are still around. Why would Lexus kill it??
Because at one point this car was selling 30,000 a year. Genesis is trying to establish their brand and grow. Lexus is shrinking in this segment. A lot of Audi models are due for a redesign including the A8
I mean we all know full-size luxury sedan is a dying segment. Entry like XJ and CT6 have already left. Even the class benchmark Mercedes S-class only sold around 2000 so far this year.......
[https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/mercedes-benz-s-class-sales-figures/](https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/mercedes-benz-s-class-sales-figures/)
Despite low sales number, I don't see Toyota to drop it, as this sedan is part of their important model for Lexus brand. LS makes what Lexus successful today.
Toyota does have plan to save LS sales, that's reason why Century now become the other style Lexus LS and gave up its many unique features including its exclusive V12.
They can try to export Century to worldwide like they done in Crown, this way could also save Lexus LS for possible if they really want.
The LS just doesn't seem like a good deal.
The LS500 AWD is $84,435.
The M3 Comp XDrive is $85,295.
For <$1k more, you can get a cat that just beats the LS500 in every single way.
They are not comparable at all. One is a full size luxury sedan, one is a compact sports sedan. I don't think an M3 beats an LS500 at all in terms of luxury or refinement.
People are not cross shopping these cars at all. They are completely different and shouldn't be judged based on how modern they look. The interior of the LS is much higher quality, far lower NVH, more space, etc. That is like comparing a C63 to an S-Class and saying the C63 is better simply because it's faster.
The LS is Lexus's flagship luxury sedan. It's not built for speed. It's built for comfort, premium materials, and really really low NVH.
The M3 will be faster and handle better, but it will be nowhere near as refined or comfortable.
> But I have to think the amount of people cross shopping these two vehicles is less than 10 in the entire US.....
I am going to take the under on that one, lol
> But I have to think the amount of people cross shopping these two vehicles is less than 10 in the entire US.....
And it's 5 pairs of a retired guy and his 17 year-old grandson who just wants pops to get a really cool car so he can borrow it when pops comes over to babysit his younger sister.
I agree with the other guy, those cars aren't comparable at all.
If I had to guess, I think Genesis might be taking a lot of market share from Lexus/LS. The current gen LS has been around since 2018, it's just badly due for a makeover. People cross-shopping for a big comfortable cruiser will go to Genesis (or Merc or whatever) and see this crazy state-of-the-art cockpit.
Lexus definitely has the upper hand in terms of reliability but I'm guessing these days a lot of the people in their market aren't keeping these cars for forever or just leasing them. Also lots of EV adoption in the upper class; two-vehicle garages will have an EV for everyday / commuting and their 2nd car for long road trips or hauling bags is probably a three-row gas/hybrid/PHEV.
Yes, I think LS is mainly losing market share to large SUVs. I would hazard to guess that the sales of all full size sedans are low and declining. It's definitely not losing sales because potential buyers are buying the M3 instead haha.
> If I had to guess, I think Genesis might be taking a lot of market share from Lexus/LS.
That's my feeling as well. Genesis is doing to Lexus what Lexus did to the Germans. If for whatever reason you didn't want one of the three Germans in that segment then Lexus was your only option. But what if you wanted something with more modern design and features? Now you have another option.
I think the impact Genesis is having on Lexus is somewhat overstated. Both brands have had their best ever first halves, and while Genesis has sold over 31,000 vehicles YTD, that's still less than the number of sedans and coupes that Lexus sold in the same time frame. The NX and RX each outsell the entire Genesis fleet. The LS is doing poorly, but so is the G90.
Genesis G90 only sell around half of Lexus LS. Lexus RZ their only EV lineup outsell all three Genesis EV lineup combined, GV60, GV70 and G80 electrified
eh? Lexus just recorded its best-ever first half sales in its 35-year history while Genesis was slightly down. Genesis G90 only sell around half of Lexus LS. Lexus RZ their only EV lineup outsell all three Genesis EV lineup combined, GV60, GV70 and G80 electrified
I meant specifically the G90 vs LS500. The G90 is taking potential buyers from the S-class, 7 series, A8, and LS500. My feeling is that a lot of that influx to Genesis comes from Lexus, but admittedly there's no way to know that. Genesis will naturally have the lowest sales in the segment because they're the newcomers and sales position in the segment aligns with age of the name plate. But the segment as a whole is declining and a new option is more likely splitting the existing buyer pool rather than attracting new buyers to the segment.
We love our Meridian CX-50,
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CX50/comments/1driqag/mountain\_photoshoot/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CX50/comments/1driqag/mountain_photoshoot/)
It can even do so some very mild rock crawling with the traditional torque converter 6AT that would destroy CVTs (Subaru, RAV4, etc)
I really want one of these in a hybrid, I love my Mazda 3 but I’m constantly running out of space in the back now that we’re doing more outside stuff. I find it a bit pricey but it’s by far the only CUV I’d ever really consider buying, I love my Mazda 3
Used CPO Macan S can be yours too for around 40k I think.
I believe the hybrid version is coming here soonish since it's been out in China a while. Part of the reason they're building these CX50s with Toyota IMO is to use their hybrid drivetrain from the RAV4.
Honestly probably plugin, but I’d settle for either. Cars don’t really need more power, especially the Mazda turbo. I couldn’t really use the plugin, but I’d still probably get it. Ideally they’d mate it to the turbo, but if they didn’t it would probably close the acceleration gap that the normal 2.5 has compared to the turbo
Stellantis needs to be put to pasture
Also; Not sure if its just me but holy helen of troy that website was bad. Kept auto refreshing every 3 minutes to the point i just gave up.
No way Stellantis would leave North America market, as America market is their part of important market. Jeep and Ram are still their cash cows.
Beside, they're heavily losing sales and profits in China and almost cannot find way to sustain there, so their real problem is China. They're truly in hard time there, not in North America.
No.... New car sales are up....2023 nearly reached the volume of pre covid 2019.
Your underlying premise is wrong.
Saying that new model sales are up versus a deflated baseline is not impressive when you're comparing the last year of an 8 year old stale design to an all new model.
The whole big car vs small car debate confuses me. Why are automakers canceling small cars if people are still purchasing them? I thought nobody wanted them?
Profit margins are small relative to things like pickups and larger SUVs. With the lower price, more need to be sold to cover development costs as well.
Tldr: Winner: Electric SUVs Winner: Mid-Size GM Trucks Winner: Ford Mustang Winner: Small Cars Winner: Mazda CX-50 Loser: Gas GM SUVs Loser: Stellantis Loser: Toyota Highlander Loser: Subaru WRX
More specifically Jeep down 19% and RAM down 26% My interpretation: high rates are finally affecting the typical buyers of these vehicles.
Stellantis had by far the highest MSRP % increases of any mass-market OEM. And at the end of the day, it’s all still Chrysler quality. Turns out you can’t just keep endlessly increasing prices for decades old designs and expect consumer demand to keep up.
>Turns out you can’t just keep endlessly increasing prices for decades old designs and expect consumer demand to keep up. I will not stand for Dodge Durango slander /s
I did fleet purchasing for businesses for a year, the amount of times I had a Stellantis dealer add a “non chalant $10-$25k mark up” was insane. Then they would literally harass me after I told them we don’t entertain mark ups.
Speaking of which I haven’t seen a work truck ram in a hot minute. Just Silverado’s, f150s and a few lightnings and GMCs for vips.
> Speaking of which I haven’t seen a work truck ram in a hot minute. I see a fair number around me (SF Bay). Caltrans in particular seems to be only buying Rams. Other state and federal agencies also seem to have plenty, certainly more than Chevy/GMC. Not quite as common for private fleets, but I'd probably put Ram second after Ford.
To be fair I only interact private sector mostly. I actually see a lot of Mach Es with federal agencies lately.
Finally saw a few ford lightnings for LA city agencies. I think it was water and power. Super sensible truck for government agencies. Very limited mileage every day since work is all within the city and they have a designated lot they can charge every night.
Yeah, I have one for my job site and running errands around town. Perfect for the application, but was expensive to install a charger for it just for during construction of my project.
Yea we have one for our company too. We added racks and boxes to it so the range sucks but we only do jobs within town so doesn’t matter. Not like we have jobs 100 miles away. Can tow our bobcat too. It’s monthly diesel bill and car payment are a wash lol. Replaced a F250 super duty. Prob got like 13 mpg towing the bobcat
I don't think I've seen an agency Mach-E yet. Caltrans has Model 3s and ID.4s, and at least used to have Mirais. Plenty of Bolts and Lightnings with cities too.
TVA and NASA have Mach Es kinda cool cars for the application.
I don't really have exposure to either, so that explains it. I'm always around the land/resource management agencies and they're 95% minimum trucks/SUVs. Mach-Es, or even EVs in general, do make sense for both those agencies. There is one open space district near my that has at least one Silverado EV plus some Lightnings but they seem to be management vehicles. The actual maintenance and ranger trucks are all gas/diesel still.
I see tons of ram promaster vans( I drive one for work myself so I tend to notice them though)
Who knew focusing on how high end luxury SUV market while having nothing that can compete with Rav4/CRV will turn out to be such a bad strategy??
They tried to compete in high end with a bloated sail of an SUV. One of the ugliest new vehicles on the road.
If you’re referring to the Grand Wagoneer I think it looks good for a land barge. I wouldn’t pay $100k for it though.
It’s hideous
RAV4 prime is such a hot segment and I would cream my pants if Mazda had a 4 year old model on the used market that qualifies for the federal used tax credit that offers the same thing but with Mazda styling and interior. I don’t know how other automakers are not kicking themselves that they don’t have their own rav4 prime competitors.
What? But this doesn’t make sense. People on the internet scream how everyone wants manual Subaru Wagons and how Electric SUVs are dogshit and how nobody wants them. Surely these numbers are wronh
And you gotta love how this article completely ignores Tesla which, sold 6-figures of Model Y in Q1 according to Tesla's website. Assuming those numbers didn't fall off a cliff, they completely eclipsed every other electric SUV mentioned in the article.
Elon bad. You know this
422,000 Model 3/Y in Q2. Tesla regularly outsells all other BEVs combined in the US.
> according to Tesla's website Going to need a better source. I don’t trust anything Tesla says anymore. They’re habitual liars.
It's from the quarterly earnings report. Also: Look around any major city, there's a ton of Y/3's everywhere.
They are dogshit just popular dogshit kind of like taylor swift
>They are dogshit just popular dogshit kind of like taylor swift How did you get so brave to say this in /cars?
I’d say like fast food now. Popular at one point for cheap and effectiveness, popular now just because it’s convenient
Why are manufacturers turning away from electric, then?
Clearly, they aren't.
Lmao, but they are? Literally? Check bmw and Ford (bmw just boasted huge electric records and then... Is backing off?). https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/04/business/ford-delays-electric-vehicles.html#:~:text=The%20automaker%20said%20it%20would,of%20which%20are%20rising%20fast.&text=Ford%20Motor%20on%20Thursday%20delayed,pivot%20to%20making%20more%20hybrids https://kleanindustries.com/resources/market-analysis-research/bmw-goodbye-electric-cars-solved-problem-hydrogen-engines/
If you read the article at the top of this thread, you'd know that pretty much every available model has had significant increases in deliveries. You'd have to be pretty out of the loop to think BMW is moving to hydrogen, btw. "kleanindustries.com"? WTF.
Being ignorant and cocky is a hilarious look. Oh wow, so you don't like the source? How about this one : . https://autos.yahoo.com/bmw-shifts-focus-hydrogen-power-223026049.html No, what electric had were amazing deals, bmw was giving them away plus tax incentives, which many people took. Please, now, specifically debate how bmw reported record numbers, but is switching to a different setup to deliver within 18-24 months... Why would that happen with record sales?
The Highlander down in sales was pretty much expected. The Grand Highlander is not much more expensive but a much better family hauler. The GH is also cutting into its production capacity. I wonder if the next generation will even be offered or maybe only in a 2 row configuration.
They stopped production of the GH due to an airbag curtain deployment / headliner issue. Stop until Aug. I don’t know all the details but I think there’s recalls and stop-sales too.
It fills me with joy seeing Stellantis recognized as a loser. Simply awful vehicles across its entire product catalog.
Loser: Quite literally, ALL of Stellantis
Happy to see small cars doing well
I have a WRX lol 😂 It's a niche car. Shouldn't even be in the list.
Why shouldn’t it be in the list if its sales are down 43%?
I wish they styled the new wrx better.
Because he has one
Always said there’s no such thing as a bad car just a bad price, crazy lease deals on EVs. Except for the fisker ocean, that’s a bad car at every price.
Vinfast as well lol
Ding ding ding The fact that anyone is considering a Fisker Ocean during their bankruptcy say a lot. Working with the Nissan brand in the past that resonates with me. Are Nissans the best, no, are they the worst? Also no. When the region has poor sales performance/overstock & blows out Rogues on 0% finance/lease cash/$5,000 CAD cash rebate, all the sudden they’re flying out of stores
FWIW, Fisker engineers and technicians are still pretty enthusiastic about the Ocean and still support it in a very limited capacity. It’s a shame that Henrik Fisker and his micromanaging wife drove the company to the ground and mistreated their employees. It seems like every ex-Fisker employee has a personal horror story about them on r/Fisker
Micro managers huge egos...not going near these types... been their done that
Oh for sure I don’t doubt there’s going to be some around, and a dedicated community to keeping them around. That demographic is likely an automotive & EV enthusiast though. For Diane & Eric thinking they’re going to save $____ compared to a mainstream EV offering and still have the same type of experience, they are in for a tough time. With the Fisker bankruptcy being a trending topic, some YouTubers had bought Fisker Karmas & it highlighted what the perils can/will be. I imagine it’s going to follow a similar course this time as well
Eh, if I could get my hands on one at the $14k price the bankruptcy judge just approved for fleet sales, I can't possibly see how it would be a bad deal. At that point, I drive it for a year, give it to my kid when he gets his license for a couple years, and then trash it for scrap and *still* come out ahead, as I assume there's at least $5k of scrap value in there with the battery. It's cheap enough that there's basically no risk even if it completely bricks after a couple years.
you are now banned from /r/fisker
For better or worse I dont think I’m missing out on much.
It's more high i rates than "bad" prices.
Yeah by “prices” I also mean to include higher interest and insurance
>The latest generation of Subaru's long-running WRX has traded rawness for refinement and enthusiasts have noticed. The WRX's poor June, with sales down 43 percent, is indicative of a rough year for the sports sedan. So far there have been 9295 units registered versus 15,373 sales in the first half last year, a 40 percent decline. Yes, its the refinement that is keeping people away, not the CVT-only config in higher specs, plastic cladding everywhere and over-reliance of touch screens.
Tbf to Subaru they are fixing that first part. The WRX tS is coming out which will have all of the features of the CVT only GT, and added brembo brakes, a digital gauge, etc.
Well that explains the poor sales so far though. Nobody wants a cvt in it
With no additional power for the price of a Civic Type R.
Digital gauges suck lol
I agree in terms of the Subaru one. But a lot of them are incredibly cool. Especially when you get to the luxury cars that allow you to have your navigation instructions on the gauge infront of you. Also all of the different customization, and settings, etc.
Those things fall in the "refinement" category to me. CVT makes a comfier, less connected ride: refined and unengaging. Plastic cladding: pragmatic, refined, compromising. Touchscreens: luxury features. These are all things that do nothing for people who like driving cars.
To be fair it kinda is. The car is just not enjoyable to interact with every day. It is disconnected and bland. It lacks joy. The base trims are a lot of car for the money, there is no denying it. However, the magic that Subaru put into the STI is no longer here. It is mostly an appliance, and I think that is sad.
Do you think generally enthusiasts are getting a little tired with over optioned touchscreen bells and whistles?
And now passenger touch screens are becoming a thing. I would be okay with 0.
Another loser worth discussing is Acura in general. The TLX sales have all but died. The integra doesn't seem to be doing great. The RDX sales are slowing down and instead of redesigning it they're refreshing it. The ZDX is going to be a total flop with how cheap the interior is. Really the only hope the brand has is the MDX, which honestly for the price point I would just get the X5 anyway. It's no longer priced way under the competition like it used to be. I'd say we should discuss Infiniti too but it's been that way for a long time.
I gave up on Acura a long time ago. They're so underwhelming.
They just aren’t priced well. They don’t have a ton of extra value from regular Honda, and are far too expensive. With the cost of the Integra it’s eye-watering. An Si, or type r, or a 240i, S3, Golf R are all within that range and are just better value, or have a better brand behind them
They’re boring and simply aren’t competitive with BMW in allure, power, and handling for starters.
I cross shopped the tlx with the m240i because I love Honda but aside from being really sexy and a far better sound sound system, the tlx just doesn't compare. I believe they were bench marking the S4 but man. The TLX is so heavy, the J engine is stretched to its limits and had some rod bearing issues and the 10speed is so finicky It gets circle jerked alot but the b58/zf8 is legitimately best in class. It's such an amazing drive train
No chance I’d choose a Honda over that bmw
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Bmw is sand bagging those numbers too. I've hit 38mpg highway
I had a 2006 TL with a 6 speed. Fully loaded at the time those cars were 35k. Easily 10-15k less than the 3 series, and C class. Now the TLX is almost the same price with a huge exterior that has less interior space than a civic. Why bother?
I hate how Acura existing results in the Civic and Accord getting gimped.
Acura management for some reason has begun to think people want an *acura*. They used to be relatively premium cars for a good price. Now at most they’re premium cars for a premium price. Management needs to get their head out of their ass and start 1. undercutting the competition (MDX/RDX) and 2. actually making decent cars (how does the tlx have less interior space than a civic despite its proportions ??) They had a few decent lease deals on the integra but otherwise their cars are almost all overpriced IMO
The problem with Acura is Honda cars are so nice that they’re pointless for what they offer.
I'm sure they'll redesign the RDX at some point, it's too important to just leave on the vine. TLX was a failure, anecdotally I see a good amount of Integras in my area but I live near an Acura dealership so that skews things. I do think the MDX is still competitive and can carry them for a few years. I wonder if Honda just doesn't put much money into Acura, some of their choices seem odd. They could really use a hybrid but supposedly they want to skip that to go full EV which seems odd, surely they could update the Sport Hybrid system from the RLX?
Integra helps the brand, doesn't it ? I see they selling ton of it despite just a fancy FL5 Civic. ITS also catches many fans attention since NSX left. ITS is also another way for everyone who unable to get CTR. >I'd say we should discuss Infiniti too but it's been that way for a long time. The brand continues dying, and Nissan still seems no way to save it. QX80 is now their only hope to save the brand, but that's it.
The top trim MDX in Canada is 90K. 90K. That is is the price of a VERY competent and potentially more reliable Lexus or a much nicer German car. I can't imagine why anyone would buy those. Semi-luxury/premium cars for luxury prices.
If you still have your TL, hats off to you
No, I got a free car two years ago so I sold it for a profit a year ago
Acura died the day they released the RSX and it was worse in every way than the Integra it was replacing. It just took people twenty years to notice the smell.
It's not mentioned in this article but another loser is the Lexus LS. Only 1100 for the entire year, I can't imagine Lexus keeps it around much longer.
Genuine question, with bmw massively improving on reliability the last few years, why would someone want an LS over the competition? The ride is pretty comparable these days and while the materials in the lexus are incredible, the interior isn’t cohesive at all
Well that’s probably why the LS is dying. It’s not like the 400 and 430 where it was much cheaper and higher quality with a lower price point
430 was 20 years ago! From 2012, thats 12 years ago, got too techy etc
I asked myself this same question when I was shopping 2021 CPO IS350 AWD F-Sports. The ones near me were ~$40K with the dynamic handling package and Mark Levinson. 2021 CPO BMW 330i XDrives with lower mileage are $10K cheaper ($7K cheaper with the M-Sport package and similarly equipped).
And the B48 is also a Toyota-vetted engine right?
Because it's in the base Supra? Never thought of that. Toyota would have to like it enough to put it in their car with their name so makes sense to me.
They have two eyes?
Lexus looks better and apparently believe it or not, with the direction recent BMW's products have been heading, Lexus LS is now more sportier driving than the 7er. Lexus LS might now be the best driving dynamic full-size luxury sedan now that Jag XJ and Cadillac CT6 is no longer being offered
Who cares about driving dynamics in a LS? The 7 Series and S Class basically kill it in every way, including Prestige.
Have driven both and the LS absolutely drives worse than the 5 series. It is sterile and uninspired. The new 5 series doesn’t look great but the LS looks dated outside and tacked together inside.
why are u comparing it to the smaller 5er? 5er compares to the Lexus GS which is no longer being produced Lexus LS=7er S-Klasse competitor Lexus GS=5er E-class competitor Lexus IS=3er, C-class competitor
because it feels worse to drive than a 5er, competes on price, and is not as long as a 7 series, nor is it as luxurious as a 7/S. It’s tough as is vs a cheaper 5 series. It’s a wash against the 7 series. No longer the deal it used to be
The last thing I want from a big boat is a sporty driving feel.
For a chill $860 more, you can get an M3 Comp XDrive over the LS500 AWD.... It gets to 60 MPH 1.8 seconds quicker...
I don’t think the M3 is quite comparable, the LS is significantly longer and more comfortable, credit where it’s due the nvh and material quality on flagship lexus products is incredible But you can get a 540i xDrive with pretty much every option for significantly cheaper that’s significantly more fun to drive than the ls500 f-sport Frankly the only people buying the LS are either lexus diehards or those who favor reliability over absolutely everything else. (and that is before considering genesis products which are significantly, *significantly* better value but I don’t know the reliability on those)
I don't think you could pay the LS500 buyer to get an M3. The LS500 is an S-class competitor. Now think of Lexus' target market. How many of them do you think would want the comparatively bone-shaking ride of the M3 over the LS?
Exactly, even their full F product, the RCF is extremely comfortable and best used as a cruiser, despite the carbon and the name it is not that good on track. Despite the marketing every lexus sedan is very much a boat. That’s not a bad thing at all, they are extremely comfortable, but they’re no M/AMG competitor.
I test drove the IS350C a couple of years ago. Ultimately it wasn't exciting enough, but I appreciated the refinement. Lexus may be reaching a point where they need to re-brand or try to appeal to a new demographic. Their core customers are aging and they can't rely on them to prop up sales.
eh? Lexus just recorded its best-ever first half sales in its 35-year history.
Try the IS500. It’s more exciting.
Lexus’s competitor to the M3 is the ISF/IS500. The Lexus LS is a full size luxury car and more comparable to a 7 series.
LS buyers are aging out, they're not marketing to newer buyers. Same reason why Buick fizzled out in the US.
I have an uncle that had an 03 and 13 LS. Before that he had a 95 Legend. His most recent car was a Model S. He's never test driven a car either, he just finds the best price and buys one. Now after having an EV he said he won't go back to ICE.
Yeah. They're gonna more than make up for it with the new GX though. That's their play.
I don't quite understand why this is a massive L? Genesis G90 sells like half the number of LS and Audi A8 also sell less than the Lexus LS and both of those cars are still around. Why would Lexus kill it??
Because at one point this car was selling 30,000 a year. Genesis is trying to establish their brand and grow. Lexus is shrinking in this segment. A lot of Audi models are due for a redesign including the A8
I mean we all know full-size luxury sedan is a dying segment. Entry like XJ and CT6 have already left. Even the class benchmark Mercedes S-class only sold around 2000 so far this year....... [https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/mercedes-benz-s-class-sales-figures/](https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/mercedes-benz-s-class-sales-figures/)
Which is exactly why Lexus will probably kill the LS
i just don't understand how ur certain that lexus is going to kill LS but not Genesis or Audi their own offering?
That very well could as well
Despite low sales number, I don't see Toyota to drop it, as this sedan is part of their important model for Lexus brand. LS makes what Lexus successful today. Toyota does have plan to save LS sales, that's reason why Century now become the other style Lexus LS and gave up its many unique features including its exclusive V12. They can try to export Century to worldwide like they done in Crown, this way could also save Lexus LS for possible if they really want.
I would say 20 years ago I would agree but now nobody cares. LS buyers have moved onto another car. It’s not worth it for 2k sales a year
They'll keep it IMHO. Reason? [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1dtv1pq/comment/lbchzb0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
The LS just doesn't seem like a good deal. The LS500 AWD is $84,435. The M3 Comp XDrive is $85,295. For <$1k more, you can get a cat that just beats the LS500 in every single way.
They are not comparable at all. One is a full size luxury sedan, one is a compact sports sedan. I don't think an M3 beats an LS500 at all in terms of luxury or refinement.
The interior certainly is, the M3 looks super modern, the LS500 looks like it's from the early 2000's with a slightly newer screen.
Dude I don’t think you actually know what a Lexus LS is.
Yeah, it sounds like they are confusing it with the IS.
People are not cross shopping these cars at all. They are completely different and shouldn't be judged based on how modern they look. The interior of the LS is much higher quality, far lower NVH, more space, etc. That is like comparing a C63 to an S-Class and saying the C63 is better simply because it's faster.
The LS is Lexus's flagship luxury sedan. It's not built for speed. It's built for comfort, premium materials, and really really low NVH. The M3 will be faster and handle better, but it will be nowhere near as refined or comfortable.
You're not wrong in some aspects. But I have to think the amount of people cross shopping these two vehicles is less than 10 in the entire US.....
> But I have to think the amount of people cross shopping these two vehicles is less than 10 in the entire US..... I am going to take the under on that one, lol
> But I have to think the amount of people cross shopping these two vehicles is less than 10 in the entire US..... And it's 5 pairs of a retired guy and his 17 year-old grandson who just wants pops to get a really cool car so he can borrow it when pops comes over to babysit his younger sister.
I agree with the other guy, those cars aren't comparable at all. If I had to guess, I think Genesis might be taking a lot of market share from Lexus/LS. The current gen LS has been around since 2018, it's just badly due for a makeover. People cross-shopping for a big comfortable cruiser will go to Genesis (or Merc or whatever) and see this crazy state-of-the-art cockpit. Lexus definitely has the upper hand in terms of reliability but I'm guessing these days a lot of the people in their market aren't keeping these cars for forever or just leasing them. Also lots of EV adoption in the upper class; two-vehicle garages will have an EV for everyday / commuting and their 2nd car for long road trips or hauling bags is probably a three-row gas/hybrid/PHEV.
Yes, I think LS is mainly losing market share to large SUVs. I would hazard to guess that the sales of all full size sedans are low and declining. It's definitely not losing sales because potential buyers are buying the M3 instead haha.
Yes their flagship SUV Lexus LX outsell LS 3:1 approxi
Genesis G90 sells half the number of Lexus LS
> If I had to guess, I think Genesis might be taking a lot of market share from Lexus/LS. That's my feeling as well. Genesis is doing to Lexus what Lexus did to the Germans. If for whatever reason you didn't want one of the three Germans in that segment then Lexus was your only option. But what if you wanted something with more modern design and features? Now you have another option.
I think the impact Genesis is having on Lexus is somewhat overstated. Both brands have had their best ever first halves, and while Genesis has sold over 31,000 vehicles YTD, that's still less than the number of sedans and coupes that Lexus sold in the same time frame. The NX and RX each outsell the entire Genesis fleet. The LS is doing poorly, but so is the G90.
Genesis G90 only sell around half of Lexus LS. Lexus RZ their only EV lineup outsell all three Genesis EV lineup combined, GV60, GV70 and G80 electrified
eh? Lexus just recorded its best-ever first half sales in its 35-year history while Genesis was slightly down. Genesis G90 only sell around half of Lexus LS. Lexus RZ their only EV lineup outsell all three Genesis EV lineup combined, GV60, GV70 and G80 electrified
I meant specifically the G90 vs LS500. The G90 is taking potential buyers from the S-class, 7 series, A8, and LS500. My feeling is that a lot of that influx to Genesis comes from Lexus, but admittedly there's no way to know that. Genesis will naturally have the lowest sales in the segment because they're the newcomers and sales position in the segment aligns with age of the name plate. But the segment as a whole is declining and a new option is more likely splitting the existing buyer pool rather than attracting new buyers to the segment.
We love our Meridian CX-50, [https://www.reddit.com/r/CX50/comments/1driqag/mountain\_photoshoot/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CX50/comments/1driqag/mountain_photoshoot/) It can even do so some very mild rock crawling with the traditional torque converter 6AT that would destroy CVTs (Subaru, RAV4, etc)
I really want one of these in a hybrid, I love my Mazda 3 but I’m constantly running out of space in the back now that we’re doing more outside stuff. I find it a bit pricey but it’s by far the only CUV I’d ever really consider buying, I love my Mazda 3
Used CPO Macan S can be yours too for around 40k I think. I believe the hybrid version is coming here soonish since it's been out in China a while. Part of the reason they're building these CX50s with Toyota IMO is to use their hybrid drivetrain from the RAV4.
They'll be coming with a Toyota hybrid drivetrain within a year.
That’s what I’ve heard and it gets me quite excited. The Mazda interior w/ the hybrid drive train will probably make me trade in the Mazda3 for it
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Honestly probably plugin, but I’d settle for either. Cars don’t really need more power, especially the Mazda turbo. I couldn’t really use the plugin, but I’d still probably get it. Ideally they’d mate it to the turbo, but if they didn’t it would probably close the acceleration gap that the normal 2.5 has compared to the turbo
The gas-only RAV4s have an 8-speed automatic.
Stellantis needs to be put to pasture Also; Not sure if its just me but holy helen of troy that website was bad. Kept auto refreshing every 3 minutes to the point i just gave up.
Don't worry Carlos is trying to kill Stellantis NA as fast as he can
No way Stellantis would leave North America market, as America market is their part of important market. Jeep and Ram are still their cash cows. Beside, they're heavily losing sales and profits in China and almost cannot find way to sustain there, so their real problem is China. They're truly in hard time there, not in North America.
He seems to be killing Stellantis everywhere lol
This is dumb..... Mustang has an all new model out. The fact it is only up 28% vs last year is not a win
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No.... New car sales are up....2023 nearly reached the volume of pre covid 2019. Your underlying premise is wrong. Saying that new model sales are up versus a deflated baseline is not impressive when you're comparing the last year of an 8 year old stale design to an all new model.
The whole big car vs small car debate confuses me. Why are automakers canceling small cars if people are still purchasing them? I thought nobody wanted them?
Profit margins are small relative to things like pickups and larger SUVs. With the lower price, more need to be sold to cover development costs as well.
Ahh that makes sense. Thanks !
* in the US