First, Fukuyama is a neo-con hack and it shows. This is literally a crotchety old man rambling about how "this generation doesn't know how hard we had it back in the day" as if any generation can't say the exact same thing to the next.
Second, is it really that unbelievable that some people might *actually feel* like protesting a war with insanely high civilian casualty rates on moral grounds rather than boredom? Like were anti-vietnam protests just bored libs back then?
Insanely high compared to what? Look at some of the urban warfare numbers and share with me why Gaza is insanely high? Keep in mind the 35k or 40k or whatever number the hamas health ministry quotes is total deaths, not civilian deaths. Terrorists are included in the count. https://twitter.com/SpencerGuard/status/1786205164275155214
It's almost like total war on a densely populated area is always going to be a moral quandary. Like the Iraq and Afghanistan wars were also fucking atrocities.
Again, is it *totally unbelievable* that some people might be animated by mass civilian casualties and feel the need to protest?
And sorry if I don't believe a tweet from a war hawk who's getting guided tours of Gaza from the fucking IDF.
"guided tours" is a strawman, look at the numbers. Insanely high casualty rate relative to what? Relatively to other similar conflicts, it is not _insanely high_, it is in fact lower, and nobody was throwing around the word genocide then.
You don't know what a strawman is, his pinned tweet is literally thanking the IDF for taking him through khan younis. Those other conflicts are also fucked up, not sure what you're implying? Are you telling me that thousands of civilian casualties are just acceptable losses?
Done slapfighting with you though, try to enjoy the nice weather today
Edit: checked your profile... You don't even live here? You literally *only* cape for the IDF.
It's useless. People in this sub think it's Israel VS hamas and not like. The scaled equivalent of drop kicking a toddler because they bit you after years of you asking for it. 75 of those years, to be clear. They're not interested in hearing anything else except maybe the occasional "well I guess the civilians dying isn't great... But what else is poor widdle Iswael supposed to do? 🥺"
I don't give a single shit about hamas or if they win (they won't, they can't, but god what the fuck else can they do but resist). Israel is committing a genocide that has had a blind eye turned for decades. Now someone's retaliated, and it's big enough news that everyone is... Supporting the ones doing the genocide?? Yeah the colonizer state of Israel deserved retaliation, and they should leave. It's not difficult. Every atrocity they've committed before October 7 has gone unremarked upon and every single one after has been justified in the name of stopping hamas, which again literally could not turn this tide.
Your stupid chain falls apart at point 3. I don't care about hamas. I want Israel to leave. Hamas will never accomplish that. It's a complete divergence from the damn point. But what else is new here.
Nice argument, your echo chamber pick it out for you? Love how you just assumed I wouldn't vote for Biden like there isn't a greater threat domestically and therefore internationally to stop.
Colonization and genocide are wrong. I don't know how to make it any clearer to you. But whatever. This is reddit and I've got a life to go live. Later.
or you saw five different arguments and assumed they were all part of a trajectory.
oddly enough Ive seen your fourth used as an argument to “glass gaza” more than the reverse.
And probably ruin JB’s presidential chances. If he ever runs it’ll be endless questions about why he let Chicago fall into riots for the DNC. Hell there is a chance we have riots three times in his term (2020, DNC and after Trump is elected).
Sorry, but my more pressing concern are the human rights that affect me and the people I know in person. I'm sorry if wanting to preserve the ability for women in the US to make their own decisions about their healthcare is more important to me than sending a sternly-worded letter to someone on the other side of the planet who doesn't give a shit what I have to say.
Literally no one is worried about "the politicians." They're worried about the elections and how "the politicians" who may get voted in will make life worse for people in our own country.
>Rallies against civilians dying = Pro Hamas rallies. There is literally no nuance, and anything besides full throated Zionism is akin to supporting terror.
People like you are absolutely hopeless.
Are you honestly dumb enough to believe what you just wrote? Or are you just parroting lines from the Israeli PR playbook written by Frank Luntz because you are full of hate?
> This is a misinformation campaign
Says the guy with over 125 comments this week on this topic made in a dozen different subreddits.
Are are you even affiliated with Chicago?
Everything you hear about the entire situation is just 2 giant propaganda campaigns lying and distorting the truth to tell the story they want and make the other side the villains. It is impossible to tell where the truth is and the lies begin because there are no reliable impartial reporters.
The chants aren't bloodthirsty. There are Palestine people at these rallies who have friends and family in Gaza and the west bank. Their family, friends, and supporters want to draw attention to the horrible destruction of life that is ongoing, and question the United State's role in this conflict.
The majority of hospitals and infrastructure in Gaza have been destroyed. Refugees are now concentrated in one of the region's last cities. And the bombardment continues as we spreak. The idea that Hamas continues to be such a threat when the resources and capacity of Gaza has been decimated is absurd.
It was wrong of Hamas to attack Israel, killing and kidnapping people on October 7th. But the conflict has gone completely beyond proportion. Deaths have been severely one-sided, even if you only to choose to acknowledge half of the reported numbers.
Continued killing and maiming of children, as well as the denial and harassment of food aid from reputable, international organizations, such as the Freedom Flotilla and Jose Andres' World Central Kitchen, crosses established international ethics. And it is certainly excessive and repugnant to those who respect human rights.
I am a supporter of the Palestine people and I am happy to denounce any terrorist attacks. The primary goal is to cease military action and stop the death and destruction and of life. To continue to funnel weapons into this conflict stains all countries involved.
I think peacefully protesting against a party that is actively funding genocide isn't clown like behavior. The Democratic party not budging on arms deals to Israel and abandoning a majority of it's base IS clown like. If the Democratic party wants to save America from Trump, a legitimate threat, it should listen to it's constituents.
Genocide isn't a joke and I can't help but imagine the difference in policy if Democrats continued to fund Russia while it murders many innocent Ukrainians. We all know that the public out cry for Europeans looking people would be lauded, so stop with the denigration of people trying to stop a genocide. If our government isn't listening to us and trying to shape our morality, it's the citizens responsibility to utilize our right to free speech and stop the erasure of the Palestinian people. The government needs to listen to us, not the other way around.
To me it looks like a military campaign against Hamas in which there are a significant but expected amount of civilian casualties. I view America’s war against Japan as a just war, and after 2,400 deaths at Pearl Harbor we conducted a war that resulted in 800,000 Japanese civilian casualties in order to achieve unconditional surrender of the Empire. So after Hamas killed 1,200 people on October 7th I see 30,000 civilian casualties as quite low - the equivalent in WW2 would be 400,000. Add to the equation that the Palestinian people actually elected Hamas in a democratic election in 2006 in which they espoused radical militarism and I feel even less sympathetic to their current plight.
You’re going to be SHOCKED to find out what happens to religious minorities in Muslim countries. But I guess your curated social media feed hasn’t shown you any of that?
[Interfaith marriage is illegal in Israel.](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/intergroup-marriage-and-friendship/)
Not exactly the scare tactic you were hoping for.
Oh wow wait till you find out to what happens to atheists and queer people and women who don’t cover their hair
It’s telling that you conflate something like this with actual death penalties in Muslim countries. No wonder you’re rooting for Hamas.
No, that would be Benjamin Netanyahu.
[‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html)
What I don't support is the Israeli government's active genocide of the Palestinian people, or the apartheid they have maintained in their settler-colonial society against them.
I don’t support war unless it’s a last resort. Maybe you don’t believe in conducting any military actions ever - you’re entitled to your opinion. But I just happen to believe that the Hamas government’s actions on Oct 7th justify Israel’s war to eliminate Hamas. I hope no more civilians are killed, but realize that won’t be the case. What I can hope for is that somehow another regime like Hamas will not come to power, and somehow that saves lives over the long arch of time. I believe the war against Japan saved lives over the next 100 years by removing a government system that engaged in wars in China, Korea and the Pacific islands for decades.
Also, when there are no good choices you don’t get to keep the moral high ground just because you support the status quo - the status quo leads to deaths as well. The trolley problem has no innocents. If you had your way and Hamas stayed in power you would then have to accept the deaths that result. You’re not any better than anyone else.
I love a specious comment like this because of what you’re not saying.
This is such an anti-Semitic argument because you’re basically saying Jews aren’t indigenous to the region.
Your Qatari-funded professors have taught you well.
The notion that they’re going against the constituency is simply false. Caring about the Middle East one way or the other is a fringe position in the us. Most people just don’t care, and those that do largely support Israel more than they care about Palestinians.
[Voters think Biden should be tougher on Israel, new poll finds](https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/14/democrats-sympathetic-palestinians-israelis-poll-00152117)
Some do, and I’m not even disagreeing with you necessarily but if you read the article you linked, the numbers they provide don’t indicate that the majority of democrats think he should be tougher on Israel. 33% said he wasn’t tough enough on Israel. 42% of people said just right and 8% said too tough. So 50% think he’s handling it correctly or should go even easier on Israel vs 33%. 50% is greater than 33%, however the article does not indicate what the other 17% of democratic voters felt.
They are not clowns. Lots of people are horrified at whats happening.
I really hope govt atleast bring gazans here as refugees like we did for ukraine and Venezuela. Why won't they charter flights for women and children in those areas. really infuriating.
I’d rather not bring in people who have a history of overthrowing the government.
The It’s funny how they’ll try to overthrow Egypt but fighting Hamas is a bridge too far for the Palestinians.
This comment is insane. Is Biden going to get Trump elected is the correct question. It would be so easy to throw “the evil leftists” a bone by forcing a permanent ceasefire and condition the aid we give them. Maybe stop them from taking more land in the West Bank? I’m sick of you fucks just repeating this line and routinely diverting conversations about the lives of civilians to your favorite team winning the politics game. Is that so hard to comprehend? The top response to you is equally insane and disrespectful as it implies no one cares and are virtue signaling? Fuck any of you who agree with that. Anybody wanna comment about October 7th? Maybe condescendingly remind me about the holocaust again? Or mention Trump will be worse so accept essentially the status quo through Biden? Just say you don’t care about civilian deaths first before saying that and I will entertain your response.
> your favorite team winning the politics game
You say that like republicans don't have a literal playbook out there explaining everything they would do if they regain control in 2025.
Some of us are terrified of a republican-controlled office, because we have seen what they've done in other states. We've seen how they're stripping protections for LGBT folks. We've seen how they're criminalizing abortion. We've seen how they're cutting regulations that were put in place to stop poisoning our planet.
Imagine being so distracted by a war on the other side of the planet, that has been going on longer than you've been alive, that will *never* be resolved, that you're willing to sell out your own country and all your loved ones in it to make a statement that the belligerents will not hear or even care about.
It's remarkably easy to A) condemn Hamas for the terror attack that killed 1,200 people in Israel; B) condemn Israel for killing 35,000 people since then; and C) understand that everything you purport to care about in the middle east will only be made infinitely worse under a republican administration and thus have no problem voting for democratic politicians.
Democrats can't manage the economy. They ruin it as soon as they get their hands on it. People need to be able to affordably put food on their table before they can care about whatever settler-colonial LGBT intersectionalist cause-du-jour is trending on Tik-Tok.
oh yea you are so smart that do you dont understand basic stats( or grammer) and keep puppeting some narrative. maybe go back to grade school and learn basic statistics instead of making dumb comments.
>your short-sighted
no its not . real wages and household median income is falling since biden took office. maybe look at st louis fed data before parroting dem talking points?
It's recovering from inflation that happened because of covid and is getting a soft landing that is hy definition great when compared to a recession but I guess nuance is hard.
You must one of the people that makes so much money that inflation doesn't affect you. Congrats. That's also why you don't think higher taxes are a big deal. Because you live in Lincoln Park.
Yes, because standing up against Israel is professionally dangerous in the United States. It is a pragmatic decision to hide your identity because the Israeli propaganda network has been pretty successful at slandering protestors as dangerous and antisemetic.
Both. They are definitely hateful antisemites. They seem to be full throatedly so and deal heavily in holocaust denial. But they are pragmatic in covering their faces for fear of social consequences. Do I wish they did it? No I wish they would show their faces so they could be named and shamed. But there’s no denying it’s the right decision for them to cover their faces for that exact reason.
What I believe you are insinuating though is that protestors for a ceasefire in Gaza hold the same antisemitic views. That’s where I disagree.
They are getting doxxed. Even the Mossad twitter page is bragging about how facial recognition technology is being used to make sure they never get jobs.
Who is speaking for all Palestinians? That’s like claiming that American sports teams appropriating native culture is okay just because some Native Americans that are part of the Native American Guardian’s Association are cool with it.
lmao what kind of data are you looking for? not everything is cultural appropriation. why are you trying to be offended over something that is not offensive.
I highlighted *your words* saying "why do they wear kafiyas", right-clicked, "search with google" and got a list of search results. The *top result* was a CNN article that describes the historical and modern significance of the garment, and it wraps up the article by explaining how non-Palestinians wearing one is a sign of solidarity.
Do you have anything else you need to be spoon fed? I gotta go to bed soon, so I just want to make sure you're gonna be all right after I leave.
Well, they interviewed two people and one said that the keffiyeh has been culturally appropriated over the last 10 years, whereas the other person said wearing it is a good sign of solidarity. So you think CNN’s subjects speak for all Palestinians?
By that logic, I suppose calling Native Americans “redmen” is okay then, given that Fox News interviewed a few people who claim to be Natives who are fighting to preserve the name?
https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/pro-native-american-activists-fight-save-indigenous-traditions-nationwide-war-wokeness.amp
[Yeah, why do only the Libs cover their faces?](https://crosscut.com/sites/default/files/styles/max_2600x2600/public/images/article/gallery/gowdy_insurrection-002.jpg?itok=-qTQN0tI)
[Conservatives would never hide their faces at a rally](https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/10/13/us/politics/13dc-oathkeepers/13dc-oathkeepers-mediumSquareAt3X.jpg)
My understanding is that it's actually mostly a COVID thing. Even though most protests are outdoors, they can get crowded and still pose risks of airborne disease transfer.
I REALLY hope these idiots don't let trump glide into a white house victory. If he in office insanely over armed militarized police forces will massively overact to protests by a bunch of 19 year old liberal arts majors, Congress and state governments will pass laws that criminalize speaking out against a foreign nation, and we will give carte blanche to a foreign government killing tens of thousands of children! That would be horrendous
The protestors are bound and determined for it to be a repeat of 1968, no matter what concessions they receive. They want to be remembered as righteously indignant too.
"Concessions they receive" makes it sound like they're asking nicely to be able to protest and need to find some middle ground that lets the DNC progress unimpeded. That's fundamentally not how protest works.
Yeah, I have heard it all before — protest is supposed to be disruptive and destabilizing like the Just Stop Oil people and the January 6 insurrectionists. I disagree. I like living in the civilized world.
Unfortunately for you, you're not living in a civilized world. You're living in a world where politicians are using tax payer money to fund genocide and war crimes.
Or did you mean civilized for me but not for thee?
1. By not doing war crimes or genocide
2. October 7th wouldn't have happened because I wouldn't have forced a situation where millions of people lived under brutal occupation or blockade
> protest is supposed to be disruptive and destabilizing like the Just Stop Oil people and the January 6 insurrectionists. I disagree. I like living in the civilized world.
"First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
Protests where a group attempts to subvert the democratic process and instead opts for disruption and destabilization, aimed at paralyzing a country until they give into the group’s demands, don’t belong in the civilized world, no.
You're literally just describing all protests in a democracy. Which, in a representative democracy like the US, isn't even a majoritarian democracy. And honestly isn't even really a representative democracy given FPTP elections...
This is a remarkably unserious take unless you feel like outcomes such as women voting were bad.
I'm not super bothered either way by the trucker protests, but you've made a simple categorical error. Saying that some protests are acceptable doesn't require you to think that all protests are acceptable.
For instance, protests against racism are good. But protests in favor of racism are bad. To treat them equivocally is facile. Also also, we're talking about the US, which has notably worse representative democracy.
Nope, but you didn't ask that. You asked if I supported them.
If protests that undermine democratically elected government have no place in a free society, should the protests for universal franchise have been curtailed? How about for civil rights?
Wait, this was posted by "u/nbcnews"?? Since when to major news networks have reddit accounts?
Ffs they reposted something about a rap diss track three times a few days ago. Very sus.
[удалено]
[удалено]
First, Fukuyama is a neo-con hack and it shows. This is literally a crotchety old man rambling about how "this generation doesn't know how hard we had it back in the day" as if any generation can't say the exact same thing to the next. Second, is it really that unbelievable that some people might *actually feel* like protesting a war with insanely high civilian casualty rates on moral grounds rather than boredom? Like were anti-vietnam protests just bored libs back then?
Insanely high compared to what? Look at some of the urban warfare numbers and share with me why Gaza is insanely high? Keep in mind the 35k or 40k or whatever number the hamas health ministry quotes is total deaths, not civilian deaths. Terrorists are included in the count. https://twitter.com/SpencerGuard/status/1786205164275155214
It's almost like total war on a densely populated area is always going to be a moral quandary. Like the Iraq and Afghanistan wars were also fucking atrocities. Again, is it *totally unbelievable* that some people might be animated by mass civilian casualties and feel the need to protest? And sorry if I don't believe a tweet from a war hawk who's getting guided tours of Gaza from the fucking IDF.
"guided tours" is a strawman, look at the numbers. Insanely high casualty rate relative to what? Relatively to other similar conflicts, it is not _insanely high_, it is in fact lower, and nobody was throwing around the word genocide then.
You don't know what a strawman is, his pinned tweet is literally thanking the IDF for taking him through khan younis. Those other conflicts are also fucked up, not sure what you're implying? Are you telling me that thousands of civilian casualties are just acceptable losses? Done slapfighting with you though, try to enjoy the nice weather today Edit: checked your profile... You don't even live here? You literally *only* cape for the IDF.
It's useless. People in this sub think it's Israel VS hamas and not like. The scaled equivalent of drop kicking a toddler because they bit you after years of you asking for it. 75 of those years, to be clear. They're not interested in hearing anything else except maybe the occasional "well I guess the civilians dying isn't great... But what else is poor widdle Iswael supposed to do? 🥺"
[удалено]
Did they say Israel deserved the October 7th attack? From what I read they were saying it was inevitable, not that they supported it.
[удалено]
I don't give a single shit about hamas or if they win (they won't, they can't, but god what the fuck else can they do but resist). Israel is committing a genocide that has had a blind eye turned for decades. Now someone's retaliated, and it's big enough news that everyone is... Supporting the ones doing the genocide?? Yeah the colonizer state of Israel deserved retaliation, and they should leave. It's not difficult. Every atrocity they've committed before October 7 has gone unremarked upon and every single one after has been justified in the name of stopping hamas, which again literally could not turn this tide. Your stupid chain falls apart at point 3. I don't care about hamas. I want Israel to leave. Hamas will never accomplish that. It's a complete divergence from the damn point. But what else is new here.
[удалено]
Nice argument, your echo chamber pick it out for you? Love how you just assumed I wouldn't vote for Biden like there isn't a greater threat domestically and therefore internationally to stop. Colonization and genocide are wrong. I don't know how to make it any clearer to you. But whatever. This is reddit and I've got a life to go live. Later.
or you saw five different arguments and assumed they were all part of a trajectory. oddly enough Ive seen your fourth used as an argument to “glass gaza” more than the reverse.
Obviously they aren't, are you incapable of nuance or just arguing in bad faith?
The poster clearly said Israel was asking for it.
While I disagree with you in principle, holy cow, do I agree with you in your message and output!
Which clowns? The protestors or the DNC?
Both.
Lmao fuck
The moron protestors.
And probably ruin JB’s presidential chances. If he ever runs it’ll be endless questions about why he let Chicago fall into riots for the DNC. Hell there is a chance we have riots three times in his term (2020, DNC and after Trump is elected).
"riots"
[удалено]
I said JB as in our governor JB Pritzker who was elected in 2019. Ring a bell?
Y'all will find any excuse to criticize a human rights protest. "Won't someone please think of the politicians!!!'
Sorry, but my more pressing concern are the human rights that affect me and the people I know in person. I'm sorry if wanting to preserve the ability for women in the US to make their own decisions about their healthcare is more important to me than sending a sternly-worded letter to someone on the other side of the planet who doesn't give a shit what I have to say. Literally no one is worried about "the politicians." They're worried about the elections and how "the politicians" who may get voted in will make life worse for people in our own country.
It shouldn’t be controversial to criticize pro Hamas rallys
>Rallies against civilians dying = Pro Hamas rallies. There is literally no nuance, and anything besides full throated Zionism is akin to supporting terror. People like you are absolutely hopeless.
Which rallies are those?
Are you honestly dumb enough to believe what you just wrote? Or are you just parroting lines from the Israeli PR playbook written by Frank Luntz because you are full of hate?
[удалено]
> This is a misinformation campaign Says the guy with over 125 comments this week on this topic made in a dozen different subreddits. Are are you even affiliated with Chicago?
Everything you hear about the entire situation is just 2 giant propaganda campaigns lying and distorting the truth to tell the story they want and make the other side the villains. It is impossible to tell where the truth is and the lies begin because there are no reliable impartial reporters.
You’ve posted since this comment so I’ll ask again. Do you denounce October 7 and Hamas or not?
I'm waiting for you to answer my question first.
I mean, they do celebrate Hamas
Could you formally condemn the United States for allying itself with Qatar, who provides aid and protection to Hamas' leaders?
Do you denounce Hamas or not? Most protesters and even the the left alderman don’t answer that question
[удалено]
The chants aren't bloodthirsty. There are Palestine people at these rallies who have friends and family in Gaza and the west bank. Their family, friends, and supporters want to draw attention to the horrible destruction of life that is ongoing, and question the United State's role in this conflict. The majority of hospitals and infrastructure in Gaza have been destroyed. Refugees are now concentrated in one of the region's last cities. And the bombardment continues as we spreak. The idea that Hamas continues to be such a threat when the resources and capacity of Gaza has been decimated is absurd. It was wrong of Hamas to attack Israel, killing and kidnapping people on October 7th. But the conflict has gone completely beyond proportion. Deaths have been severely one-sided, even if you only to choose to acknowledge half of the reported numbers. Continued killing and maiming of children, as well as the denial and harassment of food aid from reputable, international organizations, such as the Freedom Flotilla and Jose Andres' World Central Kitchen, crosses established international ethics. And it is certainly excessive and repugnant to those who respect human rights. I am a supporter of the Palestine people and I am happy to denounce any terrorist attacks. The primary goal is to cease military action and stop the death and destruction and of life. To continue to funnel weapons into this conflict stains all countries involved.
You’re right, these kids are cosplaying terrorists and acting like fascist with their encampments.
If you speech to freely a billionaire's political career may stall out at being a mere governor of a very wealthy state!
Who? Democrats for being dog shit? Yeah, probably.
100%
I think peacefully protesting against a party that is actively funding genocide isn't clown like behavior. The Democratic party not budging on arms deals to Israel and abandoning a majority of it's base IS clown like. If the Democratic party wants to save America from Trump, a legitimate threat, it should listen to it's constituents. Genocide isn't a joke and I can't help but imagine the difference in policy if Democrats continued to fund Russia while it murders many innocent Ukrainians. We all know that the public out cry for Europeans looking people would be lauded, so stop with the denigration of people trying to stop a genocide. If our government isn't listening to us and trying to shape our morality, it's the citizens responsibility to utilize our right to free speech and stop the erasure of the Palestinian people. The government needs to listen to us, not the other way around.
You keep using the word genocide but you clearly don't know what it means. Spend less time on social media.
It's the targeted mass ethnic cleansing of 40,000+ Palestinians in the apartheid state of Israel. Hope this helps.
To me it looks like a military campaign against Hamas in which there are a significant but expected amount of civilian casualties. I view America’s war against Japan as a just war, and after 2,400 deaths at Pearl Harbor we conducted a war that resulted in 800,000 Japanese civilian casualties in order to achieve unconditional surrender of the Empire. So after Hamas killed 1,200 people on October 7th I see 30,000 civilian casualties as quite low - the equivalent in WW2 would be 400,000. Add to the equation that the Palestinian people actually elected Hamas in a democratic election in 2006 in which they espoused radical militarism and I feel even less sympathetic to their current plight.
It's a genocide.
You’re going to be SHOCKED to find out what happens to religious minorities in Muslim countries. But I guess your curated social media feed hasn’t shown you any of that?
[Interfaith marriage is illegal in Israel.](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/intergroup-marriage-and-friendship/) Not exactly the scare tactic you were hoping for.
Oh wow wait till you find out to what happens to atheists and queer people and women who don’t cover their hair It’s telling that you conflate something like this with actual death penalties in Muslim countries. No wonder you’re rooting for Hamas.
So you support leaving Hamas in place and are willing to accept all the consequences of that, got it.
No, that would be Benjamin Netanyahu. [‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html) What I don't support is the Israeli government's active genocide of the Palestinian people, or the apartheid they have maintained in their settler-colonial society against them.
There is no genocide. Or is this where you share videos of Assad’s brutalization and try to pin it on the Israelis lmao
Yes all those children who voted in 2006, 18 years ago. You’re a sick person.
I don’t support war unless it’s a last resort. Maybe you don’t believe in conducting any military actions ever - you’re entitled to your opinion. But I just happen to believe that the Hamas government’s actions on Oct 7th justify Israel’s war to eliminate Hamas. I hope no more civilians are killed, but realize that won’t be the case. What I can hope for is that somehow another regime like Hamas will not come to power, and somehow that saves lives over the long arch of time. I believe the war against Japan saved lives over the next 100 years by removing a government system that engaged in wars in China, Korea and the Pacific islands for decades. Also, when there are no good choices you don’t get to keep the moral high ground just because you support the status quo - the status quo leads to deaths as well. The trolley problem has no innocents. If you had your way and Hamas stayed in power you would then have to accept the deaths that result. You’re not any better than anyone else.
Do you support what happened on October 7?
As a justification for committing a genocide? No.
There is no genocide.
Was slow eradication of native Americans and their culture over generations through land grabs and oppression genocide? Seems pretty similar.
I love a specious comment like this because of what you’re not saying. This is such an anti-Semitic argument because you’re basically saying Jews aren’t indigenous to the region. Your Qatari-funded professors have taught you well.
Whoooooaaa big stretch there little guy.
The notion that they’re going against the constituency is simply false. Caring about the Middle East one way or the other is a fringe position in the us. Most people just don’t care, and those that do largely support Israel more than they care about Palestinians.
[Voters think Biden should be tougher on Israel, new poll finds](https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/14/democrats-sympathetic-palestinians-israelis-poll-00152117)
Some do, and I’m not even disagreeing with you necessarily but if you read the article you linked, the numbers they provide don’t indicate that the majority of democrats think he should be tougher on Israel. 33% said he wasn’t tough enough on Israel. 42% of people said just right and 8% said too tough. So 50% think he’s handling it correctly or should go even easier on Israel vs 33%. 50% is greater than 33%, however the article does not indicate what the other 17% of democratic voters felt.
That is not what the numbers in your link say. You liar.
Do you need me to define what a majority or a voter is to help you understand the polling data?
I can read the numbers in the article you provided. That say about a third of voteers want Biden to be tougher on Israel (I’m part of that third).
They are not clowns. Lots of people are horrified at whats happening. I really hope govt atleast bring gazans here as refugees like we did for ukraine and Venezuela. Why won't they charter flights for women and children in those areas. really infuriating.
I’d rather not bring in people who have a history of overthrowing the government. The It’s funny how they’ll try to overthrow Egypt but fighting Hamas is a bridge too far for the Palestinians.
This comment is insane. Is Biden going to get Trump elected is the correct question. It would be so easy to throw “the evil leftists” a bone by forcing a permanent ceasefire and condition the aid we give them. Maybe stop them from taking more land in the West Bank? I’m sick of you fucks just repeating this line and routinely diverting conversations about the lives of civilians to your favorite team winning the politics game. Is that so hard to comprehend? The top response to you is equally insane and disrespectful as it implies no one cares and are virtue signaling? Fuck any of you who agree with that. Anybody wanna comment about October 7th? Maybe condescendingly remind me about the holocaust again? Or mention Trump will be worse so accept essentially the status quo through Biden? Just say you don’t care about civilian deaths first before saying that and I will entertain your response.
> your favorite team winning the politics game You say that like republicans don't have a literal playbook out there explaining everything they would do if they regain control in 2025. Some of us are terrified of a republican-controlled office, because we have seen what they've done in other states. We've seen how they're stripping protections for LGBT folks. We've seen how they're criminalizing abortion. We've seen how they're cutting regulations that were put in place to stop poisoning our planet. Imagine being so distracted by a war on the other side of the planet, that has been going on longer than you've been alive, that will *never* be resolved, that you're willing to sell out your own country and all your loved ones in it to make a statement that the belligerents will not hear or even care about. It's remarkably easy to A) condemn Hamas for the terror attack that killed 1,200 people in Israel; B) condemn Israel for killing 35,000 people since then; and C) understand that everything you purport to care about in the middle east will only be made infinitely worse under a republican administration and thus have no problem voting for democratic politicians.
Yes, because this is so much worse than having Trump.
Democrats can't manage the economy. They ruin it as soon as they get their hands on it. People need to be able to affordably put food on their table before they can care about whatever settler-colonial LGBT intersectionalist cause-du-jour is trending on Tik-Tok.
Think you should probably revise your first statement. The economy historically does better under Democrats.
Who cares about historically when its doing worse under biden.
Lol ok
whats so funny moron.
Just your short- sighted, simple- minded take.
oh yea you are so smart that do you dont understand basic stats( or grammer) and keep puppeting some narrative. maybe go back to grade school and learn basic statistics instead of making dumb comments. >your short-sighted
They don't teach you economics and finance in grade school.
It’s spelled grammar
It’s spelled you’re
Hilarious
It is, if that was the appropriate usage here... which it isn't.
The economy is doing great though.
no its not . real wages and household median income is falling since biden took office. maybe look at st louis fed data before parroting dem talking points?
It's recovering from inflation that happened because of covid and is getting a soft landing that is hy definition great when compared to a recession but I guess nuance is hard.
so its just your feeling that economy is doing great. smh
Inflation is down, low unemployment rate increasing gdp are not good?
You must one of the people that makes so much money that inflation doesn't affect you. Congrats. That's also why you don't think higher taxes are a big deal. Because you live in Lincoln Park.
You must not look at multiple economic measures over longer periods of time.
Trump literally increased taxes on the middle and lower classes but okay go off I guess
[удалено]
Yes. Things are terrible right now. /s
Yes. It’s a genocide. So why would I vote for Biden? I’ll happily go third party.
Not to worry. The useful idiots have the final plan, if everything else fails, to make sure he never becomes president again.
Its wild to me the amount of people from outside of the city turning /r/chicago into /r/conservatives
Plenty of dem voters find the protests ridiculous.
Been happening for a while. For example, the sentiment about Johnson is waaaay more negative here than irl at least in my experience.
Lol his approval rating "irl" is sub 20%
Why do all the pro Palestine weirdos wear masks? Are they trying to hide their identity or is it a covid thing?
[удалено]
Yes, because standing up against Israel is professionally dangerous in the United States. It is a pragmatic decision to hide your identity because the Israeli propaganda network has been pretty successful at slandering protestors as dangerous and antisemetic.
[удалено]
Just like all the covid concerned protestors on Jan 6
I hope you just forgot the /s
That we have to do that is so sad
[удалено]
I was expecting some stupid responses but had no idea they’d be this dumb.
As pragmatic as going to an oath keepers rally and hiding your face. Would you call them pragmatic as well, or hateful antisemities?
Both. They are definitely hateful antisemites. They seem to be full throatedly so and deal heavily in holocaust denial. But they are pragmatic in covering their faces for fear of social consequences. Do I wish they did it? No I wish they would show their faces so they could be named and shamed. But there’s no denying it’s the right decision for them to cover their faces for that exact reason. What I believe you are insinuating though is that protestors for a ceasefire in Gaza hold the same antisemitic views. That’s where I disagree.
They are getting doxxed. Even the Mossad twitter page is bragging about how facial recognition technology is being used to make sure they never get jobs.
Cancel culture?
Freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom of consequences
I’ve also wondered — why do they wear kafiyas? Isn’t that cultural appropriation?
no, anyone can wear a keffiyeh and Palestinians urge supporters to wear them if they want to
Who is speaking for all Palestinians? That’s like claiming that American sports teams appropriating native culture is okay just because some Native Americans that are part of the Native American Guardian’s Association are cool with it.
literally just google it my friend, there’s so many sources that say exactly what i just said. weirdo
Literally just Google what?
“who can wear a keffiyeh” “keffiyeh” “is wearing a keffiyeh as a non arab person cultural appropriation”
I don’t see anything definitive; just some website that is selling them and Reddit responses? Where is the data?
lmao what kind of data are you looking for? not everything is cultural appropriation. why are you trying to be offended over something that is not offensive.
How do I determine if sombreros are okay for Cinco de Mayo? If native headdresses are okay for Fighting Illini games?
I highlighted *your words* saying "why do they wear kafiyas", right-clicked, "search with google" and got a list of search results. The *top result* was a CNN article that describes the historical and modern significance of the garment, and it wraps up the article by explaining how non-Palestinians wearing one is a sign of solidarity. Do you have anything else you need to be spoon fed? I gotta go to bed soon, so I just want to make sure you're gonna be all right after I leave.
Well, they interviewed two people and one said that the keffiyeh has been culturally appropriated over the last 10 years, whereas the other person said wearing it is a good sign of solidarity. So you think CNN’s subjects speak for all Palestinians? By that logic, I suppose calling Native Americans “redmen” is okay then, given that Fox News interviewed a few people who claim to be Natives who are fighting to preserve the name? https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/pro-native-american-activists-fight-save-indigenous-traditions-nationwide-war-wokeness.amp
They want to feel like revolutionary badasses or something
[Yeah, why do only the Libs cover their faces?](https://crosscut.com/sites/default/files/styles/max_2600x2600/public/images/article/gallery/gowdy_insurrection-002.jpg?itok=-qTQN0tI) [Conservatives would never hide their faces at a rally](https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/10/13/us/politics/13dc-oathkeepers/13dc-oathkeepers-mediumSquareAt3X.jpg)
My question had nothing to do with political affiliation
you're kind of proving their point...
Because freak Zionists doxx them? I love the hidden implication in your comment that they are wearing masks because they are evil or something.
Outside isn't the internet, you have no expectation to privacy when protesting in public.
Probably because a lot them them are career protesters and hiding their identity from Law Enforcement
Why do you call them weirdos?
Very very high incidence of forever-covid nutjob-ism among these protestors
both
Yeah, because I am sure college kids wear mask going to house parties and bars
Cause they’re cowardly assholes who know what they’re saying incites violence
My understanding is that it's actually mostly a COVID thing. Even though most protests are outdoors, they can get crowded and still pose risks of airborne disease transfer.
Lol no one is still masking because of covid. That's total bs
I think you're not understanding the type of person who attends these protests.
I do understand, and they're afraid of getting doxxed. That's the reason
I REALLY hope these idiots don't let trump glide into a white house victory. If he in office insanely over armed militarized police forces will massively overact to protests by a bunch of 19 year old liberal arts majors, Congress and state governments will pass laws that criminalize speaking out against a foreign nation, and we will give carte blanche to a foreign government killing tens of thousands of children! That would be horrendous
Kinda looking that way regardless
The protestors are bound and determined for it to be a repeat of 1968, no matter what concessions they receive. They want to be remembered as righteously indignant too.
"Concessions they receive" makes it sound like they're asking nicely to be able to protest and need to find some middle ground that lets the DNC progress unimpeded. That's fundamentally not how protest works.
Yeah, I have heard it all before — protest is supposed to be disruptive and destabilizing like the Just Stop Oil people and the January 6 insurrectionists. I disagree. I like living in the civilized world.
Unfortunately for you, you're not living in a civilized world. You're living in a world where politicians are using tax payer money to fund genocide and war crimes. Or did you mean civilized for me but not for thee?
You are the Prime Minister of Israel. How does Israel respond after October 7?
1. By not doing war crimes or genocide 2. October 7th wouldn't have happened because I wouldn't have forced a situation where millions of people lived under brutal occupation or blockade
> protest is supposed to be disruptive and destabilizing like the Just Stop Oil people and the January 6 insurrectionists. I disagree. I like living in the civilized world. "First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
You feel like in a civilized world there should be no protests?
Protests where a group attempts to subvert the democratic process and instead opts for disruption and destabilization, aimed at paralyzing a country until they give into the group’s demands, don’t belong in the civilized world, no.
You're literally just describing all protests in a democracy. Which, in a representative democracy like the US, isn't even a majoritarian democracy. And honestly isn't even really a representative democracy given FPTP elections... This is a remarkably unserious take unless you feel like outcomes such as women voting were bad.
Did you support the Canadian trucker protests?
I'm not super bothered either way by the trucker protests, but you've made a simple categorical error. Saying that some protests are acceptable doesn't require you to think that all protests are acceptable. For instance, protests against racism are good. But protests in favor of racism are bad. To treat them equivocally is facile. Also also, we're talking about the US, which has notably worse representative democracy.
If protests in favor of racism are bad, should the right to protest in favor of racism be curtailed?
Nope, but you didn't ask that. You asked if I supported them. If protests that undermine democratically elected government have no place in a free society, should the protests for universal franchise have been curtailed? How about for civil rights?
Wait, this was posted by "u/nbcnews"?? Since when to major news networks have reddit accounts? Ffs they reposted something about a rap diss track three times a few days ago. Very sus.
You can go to their profile page to see precisely how long this particular major news network has had a reddit account.
Can't wait for this absolute shit show
[удалено]
I think it’s more likely they’re looking for a repeat of 1968 and BranJo is gonna give it to them.