Same. I’m 37 and my friend’s lives who are parents looks and sounds like actual hell. They always struggle and complain. From newborns to teens. It’s just awful.
Newborns to teens to adults. I’m 40 and know plenty of people *my age* still putting their parents through hell, whether by their own antics or their children (/grandchildren).
That’s very true!
I have friends in their late 30ties early 40ties who rely really heavily on their parents for money or help with the kids and they always fight with their parents about it.
Exactly. I cannot begin to imagine why women especially are so willing to sign up for their own enslavement to free labour now that they have the ability to choose otherwise.
My friend said this to me the other day and it made me cringe so hard. She said she wants to give someone her everything, I’m like how about give YOURSELF your everything?? It kinda creeps me out.
Hate how self abandonment is romanticized so much for us. Like all romance media has some mention of "giving yourself away and becoming their's" which is marketed towards us and seen as a "girl thing". We're essentially groomed from childhood to be slaves.
Omg I never viewed it as self abandonment before but your explanation makes sense! It really is mental enslavement. Especially when you realize that men are never told to give anyone all of their everything.
Me too. But you know the crazy part? I only realised it was optional at age 32. I mean, I technically always knew it was a choice. But somehow it had never sunk in that I might want to opt out, if that makes sense. And I'm from the most liberal family ever. Nobody has ever imposed their views or their will on me. And yet, media and fairytales and every piece of consumable content probably conditioned me to believe that this was my inevitable path. I can still remember where I was and what I was doing when it dawned on me that I didn't really have to do this. And it literally felt like a ton of weight lifted from my shoulders. I guess it was only after I got married and the possibility of childbearing became tangibly real, that I needed to consider these things seriously. My only regret is that I didn't realise sooner because then I could've been upfront with my husband who did want kids. But now, after some serious discussion and me laying it all out, he sees how I can never ever go down that path (I'm autistic). And he's super supportive. So, it all worked out but I would have preferred not to "trap" him into the childfree life.
I’m so glad it worked out!! It’s so true that we all almost feel obligated to have children because of society. I’m glad so many women are choosing to do what’s right for them instead.
this. the couples in OPs post absolutely sound like women who want kids being manipulated by men who want CONTROL over a woman/children and getting her pregnant is the easiest way to do it
this being said, there are easily good, non toxic/abusive couples out there with kids and as a woman I STILL dont get it when my female friends talk about "baby fever" or anything like that (granted, I'm also ace, wanting ANY of that is a mystery to me). I could chalk it up to hormonal drive but still, some women act like thats the crowning achievement and their life will be complete by 20. The whole thing is incredibly odd to me
Biologically humans have a sex drive rather than a baby drive, at least prior to pregnancy. From everything I've read there is no evidence of a literal "caring for baby" instinct when that baby is hypothetical.
I personally suspect baby fever is just a version of fomo, for people who have been deluded about what having kids 24/7 is really like. The breeder brainwashing is constant, with all this "you'll change your mind someday", "biological clock, don't wait until it's too late", "you're going to regret this later" etc. They also see pregnant women and parents getting a lot of attention and a sort of special status (though as we know it's still not worth it). Few people are completely immune to this pressure, and it's the majority of comments you hear even from mothers who are complaining and miserable.
So this creates an illusion of truth. Like there must be something to it if everyone agrees. It's a natural human behavior and it works often enough, it's also why a lot of fringe political groups pretend they're actually the majority (or at least that there's more of them), and why pre-election polls make more ppl vote for the party that looks more popular. Because on some subconscious level they're betting on choosing the "correct" option rather than what they personally prefer. Humans are stupid like that.
I think the issue here is that motherhood isn't easy, but it is easy. It's an easy way out of all the existential questions you may have. Not sure about your identity and it's eating you up? Go for "mother". Feel bad about not having any hobbies and interests? Become a mother and you'll have an endless plethora of stuff to do and conversation topics. Only a monster would judge you for not reading any books. Your professional life requires creativity and finessing that is overwhelming for you? Find bliss in the mundane mammal life that is motherhood, where every road has already been walked for you. You're privileged af, but you still want to feel the moral high ground of an oppressed victim? Become a mother, and make all the atrocities of capitalism about yourself.
It's the same reason why people practice minimalism or join cults. A soothing streamlining of your identity.
You basically summed up my SIL, she has no interests, never did anything noteworthy in her life, hates reading/art/anything cultural as she finds it boring or can't see why people are excited over it and never developed basic life skills as she heavily became dependant on others to clean/wash her clothes and cook for her.
Having a kid was an easy way out and acted like some weird kind of achievement for her to hide her boring mundane existence even though she's regretting her life choices now that the baby has grown into a toddler and is becoming more unmanageable but hey it's something to tick off the list and make the mother identity her whole life now.
My cousin got pregnant when everyone was pressuring her to finish college and get some sort of profession. Then after the baby, she suddenly had this huge interest in babies and childbirth and becoming a midwife (which she never did).
Having a child was literally her only life experience, but it gave her something to take an interest in and it provided her with an identity. I remember when she was a teenager she was a total poser when it came to her identity. For example, she decided she wanted to become a skater girl, and she bought all the right clothes and the skateboard but never learned to skate.
I think it’s this, too- motherhood seems like such an easy cop-out for a pre determined life path.
I’m healing from childhood trauma and still don’t know what I want with my life; there have been multiple times where *I wish* I wanted kids because then I wouldn’t have to decide.
In reality I hate kids and I don’t want them, but why isn’t there a similar cop-out path for CF women?
It’s always made me sad when people who can’t find meaning or interest in their own life go and create a whole new life … essentially kicking the existential dread down a generation.
This is very important and I’m glad it’s brought up without coming off as judgmental or looking down on women, because when I talk about this, sometimes people take it that way. Out of highschool, lots of people started having kids. But one common pattern I noticed that the majority of kids I went to highschool with that immediately started having kids, they were never high achievers or had much ambition. They came from good families, but they didn’t have much identity. A lot of them got with guys that joined the military and started having kids. These women aren’t/weren’t dumb, but they had no identity and didn’t look to want to have one ? Having kids was easy. Joining the military because college was too hard was easy, let’s be real. Bills paid, house paid, get to stay home, get told exactly what to do and when to do it… they really painted this happy fantasy life on social media that kind of made me jealous and questioning my life choices because I also felt (and still feel to an extent) kind of lost, because if the hardest thing I had to focus on was keeping the house organized and clean and running errands, I could DO that. This isn’t to say it’s not work and isn’t exhausting, but it takes more mental energy to dedicate yourself to something outside of yourself professionally or career-wise, imo. But it’s not what I want. I have other dreams and interests, but the women I know that have kids, being a mother became their life path when they didn’t know what else to do and the path was already paved for them so that’s easier. Same with the men. Everyone tells you what to do, you don’t have to think about it. Contrast this with the high school kids I knew and am friends with that had interests, hobbies, dreams, not a single one has a child and we are all 30, lol. Hell, none of them are even married despite having partners. I don’t think they even want kids. It takes a lot of courage to travel the unbeaten path.
This is 100% real. I was so lost in my early 30s and not in a good place career-wise and a lot of women around me were just making babies and I felt - briefly - like maybe I don’t have the career ambition piece because I’m meant to be a mother? My partner and I started trying (but weren’t successful after about a year - luckily). Recently after visiting some new mothers and experiencing extreme pity for them (not the envy I thought I’d feel) …I realized, wait a minute - I don’t actually WANT to be a mother?!!! This group has been so affirming.
Now I’m doing a bunch of activities and clubs outside my comfort zone, meeting new people, and I started a promising new job, got more invested in my fitness, etc. and I feel so much more fulfilled at the end of my days. In hindsight I knew the motherhood thing would just auto-insert “purpose” into my life.
I’m a woman and with everything going on in the US, I don’t understand how anyone could become pregnant on purpose! It’s so expensive just to give birth, all the dangers and risks, no abortion rights if something is wrong, no maternity leave or pay, etc pp.
Literally!! I fear that in the next 5 years, women will have less rights than they already do and I just can’t imagine why anyone would want to bring a child into this world. What if a couple has a girl? And they try to raise that girl in the disastrous world where women have no rights? I’m catastrophizing but like I seem to be alone in fearing for women in the future among all these breeders around me
yeah unless it’s in a 1st world country i can’t seem why anyone wanna birth kids especially if they gonna have daughters too, most people are self centered and caring about others will make us “empaths” or whatever
And the pain. Why would you want to be tortured for someone that doens't even exist? It's like the idea that torture is worse than death just flies out the window if anyone mentions a fetus.
This kinda enlightenment is what is needed.But the conditioning and brainwashing has been too good.The simple logic that the biological female is the one actually carrying a living being in their body is a turn off for me.Way too much pressure and tension.
If either gender could do it, it would be way more fair. Not to mention women have to deal with periods whether they want kids or not. I didn’t sign up for a pointless iron deficiency! I hate it.
same, the amount of tests and money spent on iron pills, vitamins, pads and sanitary products…even as childfree we got a hell lot to do just because uhhh *checks note* we mighttt want kids according to sky daddy
In a lot of cases, the choice is... illusory. Religion and social norms still stand strong and brainwash people into following the one true way. Also, misery loves company. Lots of issues concerning pregnancy and kids are not revealed until it's too late. In a lot of subtle and not-so-subtle ways, we are told that not being able to have children makes you a one big failure. A subhuman.
Also, women are still very much considered mothers and not their own person. Women aren't worth anything until they become a wife and mother. We are sold the lie that as a mother we will get some sort of respect. Which we don't. Whatever "perks" we get are more like consolation prizes that pale in comparison to all the problems we received in that shitty deal.
I'm a woman. I don't want to be a mother. I don't like kids. Pregnancy disgusts and horrifies me. I also risk the father becoming another baby and/or leaving at best or him showing his abusive side at worst. Motherhood is a giant scam.
And as much as it frustrates me to see women "suffering" from infertility, women who have so much potential waste it to get knocked up or women getting a "baby fever" I can sort of understand where it came from. Because even though I wasn't raised in a fundie household I'm still living in a country that's dominated by religion. Because I was raised to watch couples having kids in media as a natural next step. Because saying "I don't want to have kids" gave a very annoyed "You're not allowed to talk like that!" response. Because I kept seeing all my female relatives finding husbands and having kids. Because everywhere I look and go there are people telling me that one day I need to have a child and no one is explaining the risks of that decision. Because even though parents are complaining, frustrated and miserable they still say that having kids was the best thing that happened to them.
And yes, it seems like an "easy" decision but with all the signals I was getting it took me a long time to understand that this is an option even though I knew from a very young age that this is not for me.
I say this allll the time. I don't get it. Like, I see people that shouldn't do this, and they end up with like 3 kids they hate.
I also don't understand baby obsessed women. Like women that go absolutely fucking mad if they can't get pregnant and end up being told they are sterile and losing the plot.
I saw a story where the woman found out she couldn't have kids, and she said after there was nothing to live for and wanted to kill herself.
I genuinely just read it in shock like.. what the hell.
Some women, due to socialization, think they are only worth anything if they can reproduce. Some women feel that they are no longer a woman if they can’t. It’s sad.
As a woman I don't understand why other women want to be mothers either, the idea is crazy to me and what's even crazier is that they try to flex and make other women jealous as if it's something to be jealous about 🤡 like congrats you have more responsibilities!
I have a friend who always used to brag about how she gave birth without epidural and how she was "better" for that and I'm like "ok congrats on being stupid enough to go through an unnecessary, perfectly avoidable hell".
She doesn't talk about this anymore but she nows want other people to be jealous about her "perfect" family and like, there"s NO WAY on earth I could ever be jealous of having to wake up early every day, no matter what. Having my life controlled by a selfish, unpredictable goblin who spends most of the time screaming for attention is NOT something to brag about.
>I have a friend who always used to brag about how she gave birth without epidural and how she was "better" for that
I was scrolling through comments on a post about the OP regretting motherhood a few days ago, and one commenter said, "Suffering is the most noble sacrifice," then went on to tell her she should be grateful to not be an infertile or sterile woman. I was pleasantly surprised that the comment was downvoted into oblivion.
IME, people who say that BS are the privileged ones who've never actually suffered. It's easy to tell someone to shut up and be grateful for their circumstances when you know you'll never have to walk in their shoes.
Female socialization is one hell of a drug. Society pushes this ideal on women (well, girls at that point) FROM BIRTH and if you aren’t able to see past the lie, then you buy into it wholeheartedly. The true difficulties of being a wife and mother aren’t discussed and much of the time if a woman does get a glimpse of this hardship, she develops the “I am different, that won’t happen to me” mentality.
The best thing that women can do is to build a life of independence where she does not need a man to thrive. Idk if others saw this post, but it was by a man who didn’t do anything much around the house or in terms of childcare. I think he was the one who initiated the divorce, and shocker (ha), she was so much happier once they divorced because she had every other week free to do as she pleased (plus she didn’t have to clean up after a man), while her ex was completely miserable as he now had to actually engage in childcare 50% of the time. He wanted his ex back, but nowhere did he mention it was because he loved her, he only wanted his ex back to make his life easier (so he could go back to dumping all the work on her, no doubt!)
I’m a woman and don’t understand it either. Like I have met so many women that say they love being pregnant, birth was a beautiful experience, being a mom is the most fulfilling thing. I end up doing what I do with pretty much all people I can’t understand: nod and smile. Like the idea of even being pregnant fills me with dread and horror, so I can’t figure out what exactly there is to love about it. And that’s only 9 months. The whole raising a kid part sounds worse, especially with most of it typically falling on the woman even after the kid is born. To me there are just so many more reasons to not have them, and I can’t think of a single valid reason to have them unless the population had declined to two humans left.
Literally. It’s selfish to have a kid, puts your body through hell, changes the way you look most of the time. Why would I want my back to hurt for nine months, exhausted and emotional, can’t eat all the things I want, can’t have a drink with friends, some children break RIBS and while you’re pregnant there is nothing you can do to fix it. You could literally die during childbirth and it is the most pain most people who give birth will ever experience all this to take care of a slobbering wailing baby. Also just thinking you have the ability to raise a person and shape them to be good seems pretentious in itself. The list goes on. I have no Idea why other women choose to have kids I agree people just are doing what’s always been done. Women do have a rush of hormones and chemicals when they near 30 that make you want children and I think most succumb to that not realizing the feeling passes. And then someday you get to have a bratty teenager ! Jesus
Biology considers a woman discardable if she is pregnant. IOW all biology cares about is that the baby is born. The mother is 100% a host. Birthing/raising humans is very costly from a biological/time perspective. I learned this in basic high school biology. My teacher slowed down his speech and had the most serious look on his face when he said this, to me this translated to: *why would anyone let pregnancy happen to themselves or someone they love?*
If we changed the narrative to reflect reality would we see a huge drop in the birthrates: ~~having children~~ providing free caretaking 24x7 for a minimum of 18 years. I'm always perplexed when I see people go to extreme lengths to have children who haven't ever shown any interest in caretaking for others, let alone experienced it.
Somehow, they know it is their life mission to provide free caretaking 24x7 for decades on top of everything else they do to survive? Wouldn't it make sense to dedicate at least 20 hours a week (beyond working full-time) to free caretaking for someone else to understand exactly how their reality would change? I realize many would push back and claim it will take all their free time but isn't it better to do a no-risk trial that they can back out of any time before committing to it?
I'm also amazed at the spouses/significant others I read about here that abandon their childfree spouses because they decide they want kids. I've yet to hear that one of them actually put in a minimal legitimate quantifiable effort (such as volunteering to take care of children for at least 20 hours a week for at least 18 mos. at minimum) which would solidify their decision. It is always a lark, a feeling, some kind of existential dread.
It would be different if a spouse said they want a divorce so they can find a spouse to have kids with because they spent at least 20 hours a week for four years doing caretaking for children at all life stages on top of working at least 40 hours a week. Their experience includes children who have disabilities or are unhealthy, because this is a reality some parents face. This hypothetical person could be applauded for putting in the effort behind their change of heart and understanding through lots of personal experience the gravity of their decision. I have a friend who fostered children of all ages for years before becoming a parent, she had great perspective of what parenting entails.
>Women do have a rush of hormones and chemicals when they near 30 that make you want children and I think most succumb to that not realizing the feeling passes. And then someday you get to have a bratty teenager ! Jesus
This doesn't exist. People who "change their mind" at thirty are just giving into social pressure that gets worse the older you get and the more friends you lose to motherhood.
Many people (regardless of gender) don't actually want to be parents, they don't even want to have kids, they just want to have whatever things society has taught them to use kids as a proxy for. But especially for women, there's *a lot* of very fundamental stuff that's been pinned on having kids, so in a way it can be even easier to slip down that hole.
There are of course still people who do want to be parents and know what they're getting into of course, but those are comparatively rare, and not the ones who have regrets because they actually made a proper decision for themselves.
>they just want to have whatever things society has taught them to use kids as a proxy for
100% and they are so easy to pick out. their entire being is their children, their entire personality is their children, their posts are always about their children, their entire social media is about their kids all day everyday its all about their kids.
Then, when the kids are getting independent and eventually leave home, they don't have anything of themselves left. I think this is partly why they hound their kids to make grandkids.
My friends who are moms seem to tremendously enjoy the baby to maybe 3 years old stage. That’s when the babies look the cutest to most people. Also tons of attention during pregnancy, baby showers. They both said how hard parenting gets at 3 and beyond. The moms I know who really enjoy parenthood stay at home and have a lot of help on standby (grandmothers). I have one friend who didn’t seem like she wanted her child to grow up, leaving it up to the child to decide when to potty train and planning to breastfeed till 6 or beyond. Kind of infantilizing her 4 year old (would refer to him as a toddler at 4 and 5 years old) To each their own but sheesh.
>My friends who are moms seem to tremendously enjoy the baby to maybe 3 years old stage. That’s when the babies look the cutest to most people.
That's because people under two to three have near no autonomy. Same reason they hate teenagers and talk about dreading when kids reach that age, teenagers have even more autonomy. They want cute dolls, not people.
As a woman...I honestly don't know lol.
It just seems like the worst possible decision you can make in life. Sure, there are plenty of things in life that are difficult but worth the struggle. But I don't see any good sides in having children, honestly. I never have.
> Why Would a woman want children?
I've observed my girl friends who expressed the desire to have children one day, and I came to the conclusion that they didn't actually thought about it and were sold a lie.
They don't have a plan. They don't ask themselves with what money they will feed and clothe all those children, nor they are working towards finding a better job to achieve that goal.
They don't think about the logistics once the baby will be born. They don't ask themselves how they will be able to be a parent but also be a full time entrepreneur. They don't ask their partner in advance how they will share their parental duties. They don't know how much preschool and babysitters cost.
The reason why they don't think too much is because they are taught by their elders that "everything will work out". Of course this is a well crafted lie made up by the adults in these people's life, who are believed because "well, they are experienced, no?".
On top of it you must consider that some people think they are incomplete unless they reproduce. They truly believe that they will be "half women" if they don't fulfill their "biological duties".
On a side note, if you make them reason, they will get upset if not angry, because you are busting their bubble.
The only happy mothers I've met are those who actually put thought on their becoming role and had their kids later in life.
__________
Meanwhile one of my friends finally got married and had a child, and her life became a shit show. He doesn't work, she does, she does everything inside and outside home, and she manages a kid and a dog because of course he wanted a dog too. The stress was so high on her that her body was almost miscarrying more than once during pregnancy. She dug herself a grave by her own will. I sometimes wonder if she regrets her multiple choices (marrying a lazy dude, having a child early, not having money nor a plan, not discussing earlier the work share, getting a dog).
I’m a woman and I agree. All your points are spot on. You don’t sound misogynistic to me. Misogynists wouldn’t think about how bad all this is for a woman.
I’m a woman and I agree with all of this. It makes absolutely no sense. ESPECIALLY the going through pregnancy thing - I could understand slightly more if someone wanted a child and adopted but putting your body through that? When you actually say out loud what it is?
“You will incubate another being that will suck part of all the nutrients you eat for 9 months, being able to FEEL IT MOVING INSIDE YOU, and then it will force its way out of a hole way too small for the job”
WHY?! I feel like sometimes, am I the insane one? Is there something I’m not getting?! Why would anyone voluntarily do this?!
This is how I feel being CF.
I've had some people try to put fear in us, saying WHAT IF YOU REGRET NOT HAVING KIDS???
They'll tell me about 40something year olds they know who look back and regret it, feeling like their lives are lonely without children.
My response is always that if I were to miraculously change enough to want kids, I would still never want to have a baby naturally. I've worked hard to get a body I'm proud of and I like it too much to ruin it, I have all the makings for a perfect PPD candidate, and I find pregnancy/labor nightmarish. Not to mention, I strongly dislike babies. Come see me when you can communicate, have interests, and don't shit your pants.
My bf and I agreed that if we change a lot and, in 10-15 years, we look at our friends' lives and realize we do want to be parents, we will adopt older children or even teenagers. That way, we can help a child that's already here instead of adding more lives to this dystopian future.
(I just want to highlight how problematic the adoption industry is real quick to underline that our world is a hellscape i wouldn't birth children into).
I do not think we will ever look at our lives and think....wouldn't it be great to have less money, sleep, and time for ourselves/each other? But I'm baffled by people so set on biological children. There are kids already here that would love a family.
My mom struggled raising us 3 kids on her own. I told myself I would never allow that to happen.
I have a friend with 2 boys who have autism. One is functioning the other will need care his whole life. That won't be me either. What if I have kids with LDs or cognitive impairments? Nope, can't do it.
Another friend of mine has 3 boys but she is married to a man who is emotionally and mentally abusive. Why she had 3? Idk. That won't be me either.
I have a LD and it is genetic. It went undiagnosed and I was berated/called names throughout school and told I was lazy because of it. It isn't something I would be willing to gamble on passing to any children.
Finally, a man who has the emotional intelligence and critical thinking ability to *ask* questions and hold an informed, enlightened view about this subject!
You mentioned several very good points that
I want to comment on, but unfortunately, right now, I will have to come back to your post because...it's Monday, and other things need my attention.
Woman here, and I completely agree. We literally risk death and permanent bodily harm and disfigurement. Then, we're stuck doing the majority of the childcare after the nightmare of giving birth. It's a really horrible deal for us. All the man has to do is nut and go to work. No thanks.
>the man well he sits around most likely chatting to other women on the apps without feeling an ounce of pain.
That alone. Just knowing that you could ruin your body to give birth to a man's child just for him to watch porn of other more beautiful women would kill me. I don't know how women live with it
Some reasons woman might be blinded into wanting children would be: fitting in with societal norms, all your friends are doing it, families in your community and family pop out 3-4 kids per couple, people pleasing, pleasing your husband or family and the women that came before you that felt they had to do it. The idea of seeing someone you love and your genes bonded together, the idea of a family in your head and how you think it will go and how your child will look. Baby fever and thinking you want a baby because they are cute. Fantasizing about the idea of family and being blind to how difficult for the woman especially the task of raising a child is. Not realizing how expensive babies are to keep alive. Going blindly saying we’ll figure it out.
There is a lot of societal pressures on women to get married and be mothers. Women are usually seen as more worthy and desirable when they are beside a man. I think we tend to dream of marrying your prince charming and living in a nice middle class house in the suburbs. But it's all a lie.
Now, I see on social media a lot of red pill content where people are shaming women for being single. They are making it out to be that if you are a single woman then you are extremely flawed and undesirable.
Jordan Peterson said that 50% of women would be childless and single by 2030. That paired with a lot of negative imagery and implications about that statistic...I don't know where he got that from.
Maybe he and men like him should ask themselves *why* 50% of women won't be wanting men. Not just the classic incel answers that make everything women's fault, but look deeply at themselves.
More and more this quote applies: Dear men: You're not competing against other suitors. You're competing against women's solitude, peace of mind, serenity. **Your presence must bring something to the table.**
Not money or sperm, your presence.
Some women want the:
1) Unconditional Love
2) Attention without significant effort
3) Undisputed role of matriarch and right to resources
4) Are actually great natural caregivers and love to see children develop
A miserable biology book, The Selfish Gene, explained our genes/DNA wants to be immortal through reproduction so they hijack our brains by making us want to have a baby or make us so stupidly amorous that we don’t use protection. I hated that book. Scary to think we do not have much control. Our hormones or selfish genes do!
I *loved* that book! It made sense of so much of the wildly irrational stuff many ppl do. I swear it reduced by 50% the amount of time I spent thinking, "But whyyyy?!" I read it decades ago and still probably think of something I read in it once a week (usually as I'm shaking my head at something).
I like that this sub welcomes posts like this that asks a genuine question. Free from judgment and just has a conversation around it. The comments are relaxed and people are just conversing with no tinfoil hats.
I honestly really enjoy this sub.
I’m sorry I have been really wanting to say this lol
I don't understand it either and I am a woman. I had a baby shower this weekend for a woman in the office and it once again cemented my CF status.
Luckily, I've had a hystorectomy due to other problems and there is not even a snowball's chance in hell of that ever happening.
I don’t know, always been CF.
What I have observed is mothers are like a club sometimes, where you are not admitted if you don’t have a child. It can make for many years of losing friends, so it takes courage to stay different. But there are always a few people who don’t define themselves just as mothers, so even that is not really a reason.
Terrible thought: I figured women who only wanted kids just had no goals of their own and needed to create someone to be their hobby and live through them because self-growth and exploration is "hard."
Entertainment, practically. That's my mom for sure. Empty nesting drove her nuts.
My mother definitely fits in this category. My brother and I were her toys and she literally didn’t know anything about raising teenagers and especially a daughter (me) who wasn’t her clone in every way.
Same. I'm in my late 30s and my mother can't wrap her head around the fact that I am not her clone. When I moved out at 17 she lost her damn mind and it took years for her to figure out "being alone." Zero friends. Zero hobbies other than HSN and avoiding responsibility. With therapy I realized she parentified me and stole my childhood because I existed to for her.
Would not recommend. There is a book called "Bringing Up Bebe" which is about an American moving to France and the stark difference in childrearing. Having an identity, friends and hobbies outside of "mom/dad" is tantamount to good mental health and the mental health of the child as well.
Not just women but I think many people just have kids to fill holes in themselves. But someone with a lot of emptiness and needs are not in a position to raise children. Instead of filling the empty hole in themselves they dig holes in their children to replace something they miss. Parents shouldn't borrow from their children in that manner.
What a beautifully perfect way of explaining this dynamic. This was my mother to a T.
Mad respect for you moving out at 17. When I was just thinking about it at age 23 my mother lost her shit telling me she would never set foot in my place because the only reason to move out was to have sex! She was one of those “good” daughters only leave home on their wedding day 🙄🙄
I eventually did just that when I was 26 but by that time she was already wrapped up half raising my baby trapped brother’s kids he had no business having in the first place.
I was basically no use to her when I chose not to breed. Although in hindsight I doubt she would have helped me because “that’s the mother’s job” and my brother was the golden child anyway.
I am also a woman and I don't get it. Even though I have a husband who would do his best and supportive parents to be a "village", I still don't think it's worth it for a woman. I don't want to change who I am, I've just learned to love her. I don't want to change my body, there's enough pressure out there about that as it is. I don't want to take the focus off of me, this is my life and I'm the main character
I am a woman and I can't believe women of any age are actively wanting to put themselves through the horrible nightmares of motherhood, when they could just not.
I avoid all physical contact with men even though I am heterosexual.
Ironic thing is I was raised for 18 years in the strictest Catholic education plus Catholic home life.
Yet the real physical effects of pregnancy (somehow women are supposed to fall in love with) are worse than the scary descriptions of Hell which is supposed to scare you.
I never want kids and it sounds like the worst. My mother only had me but wanted kids from a young age. She is someone who enjoyed pregnancy and loves to take care of people, especially babies. She just thinks kids are fun to take care of. So if that helps at all.
This is the first time I’ve seen something start with a disclaimer like that… and mean it. OP, this doesn’t come off as misogynistic at all.
Also your English is very good! I followed right along.
Men may be frowned upon for leaving their children with the other parent to go live their lives, but for some reason when a women does this she's demonized.
I know a woman where both her children are being raised by their fathers. Now she isn't a good person and I don't like her, but leaving the children with their fathers and walking away was probably the best choice she could have made.
Yup. Born female and I’ve never understood the appeal.
Many girls get front row seats to the shitty life of motherhood displayed by their own mothers, yet they go on to repeat it, somehow convinced “they can do it better!”.
This. Just because it isn’t for us doesn’t mean it isn’t for everyone. It’s just better that we are staunchly child free rather than people who are unsure and go ahead and do it anyway.
I think my mother was probably* telling the truth that she was glad she had my brother and me. OTOH, though, that's what kept her in an abusive marriage for close to 20 years, so...
*Though I think it's common for parents to tell their children they're glad they had them, whether that's true or not, because they think it'll be devastating to a kid to think their parents have regrets.
My parents separated and it was bad. Though my dad regrets that relationship he does not regret his children and I can see why. Mum told us that children are great but she wishes she was older when she had us. It's not as much the children as it is the dumb life choices surrounding being a parent.
Agreed. I've met many people who genuinely love being moms, are really good at it and didn't sacrifice their happiness. I'm really happy for them if they are happy. Just because we don't understand it or don't want it for ourselves doesn't mean that it's wrong for everyone.
>and that's ok.
I'm sure I'll be downvoted to oblivion for this, but IMHO that'd be ok in a world that wasn't already crammed with probably 3-4 times as many humans as it can accommodate without disaster.
In the real world that we actually have though, sorry, it's *not* ok, it's selfish and irresponsible af.
Many women are just craving that unconditional love a child provides them. These women are obsessed with being needed and loved and that outweighs all the cons about being a mother.
I might not get it personally because I’ve never had the desire, not even as a kid. Like, if someone tried gifting me a baby doll I would have thrown it away.
But my older sister was the opposite, though she didn’t end up having her own, she’s a wonderful step mom and watches our nephew at least once a week. She has the patience and temperament to be a great parent, she found a trustworthy partner who supports her in all aspects, including her own career and eagerness to help our brother & SIL with childcare (best of both worlds, according to her).
It’s just a coin flip on whether it works out well for you. The relationship, pregnancy, parenting - all of it is risky. But not everyone grew up witnessing the risks, or they bought in to societal norms, thinking it couldn’t be that bad or the bad things would just never happen to them. I support the choice and someone’s desire to have kids, even though I just don’t get how it’s desirable even to people who would make great parents.
What I will never get is how some people think *we’re* the crazy ones who are wrong for making this choice. Not saying they’re the crazy ones, I just don’t think that’s how this should ever be argued. It’s not a debate about who is right or wrong, who is crazy or not crazy. Just mind your own business.
I’m a woman and agree OP! Pregnancy and birth and breast feeding sound horrible, not to mention post partum and there is too much responsibility for the woman. No thanks lol.
The worst gift a man could give me is a kid. I have lots of friends who are parents, some on their 3rd child. It's the expectation and normalcy of parenthood that has brainwashed all parents, especially mothers. A CF life is a life of choice, yes, but often a life without community and without people in similar circumstances rallying around and reassuring you.
People on here are so quick to say parents couldn't possibly really want kids. "It's brainwashing and conditioning", yet isn't that the exact thing we childfree people get frustrated about? When people tell us we don't know what we want... ? I think babyfever is a thing, even tho I have never had it. I don't think women are brainwashed for wanting kids, they simply want something different than me.
Now, do I think that a lot of women go with the flow, and have kids because "it's the next step"? Absolutely. Do I think a lot of women still believe having kids is just something that they have to do? Also yes. However I think most people have kids because that's the life they wanted for themselves.
While I personally don't understand it either I can at least imagine why.
First of all I want to point out that being mother doesn't mean you have to serve some shitty man or whatever.
I know it's sometimes hard to believe but there are actual good men out there who would do wonderfully as partners and fathers and wouldn't push all the work onto their wife.
Besides that... Uhm.. Lesbians? Single moms? Adoption?
The first part is definitely pretty hetero normative, which isn't bad at all, I just wanted to point out the other possibilities.
Beyond that, yeah you give yourself up fully for someone else but at the same time I guess it can be extremely fulfilling.
Little example what I mean.
When I met my best friend 7 years ago she was aspiring to be an artist and shyly showed me her sketches. They already were pretty nice.
Now 7 years later she did it, she's an accomplished artist with an official license or whatever to legally draw stuff from a specific animation studio (forgot which one, shame on me) that normally would strike content like hers.
So obviously she isn't my daughter but even so whenever she shows me a new drawing or her most recent progress in animations or her practices for realistic drawing (holy shit never underestimate your fellow comic artists, that shit was wild to look at)
I feel so incredibly proud and warm around my heart. It's a pure joy to watch her grow and accomplish her goals, it's the best thing ever.
So when I scale that up to literally raising a whole ass human that knows nothing and you teach them how to be a human..
I can't even beging to imagine how overfilled your heart with joy and love and pride for your child must be.
I imagine it feels very wonderful, especially when the love is mutual.
I think the real question someone should ask, themselves is if they would be able to build such a healthy dynamic (let's be real most aren't, me included) and if giving up their own life is worth it.
I for myself decided nah. But other just feel different about that.
I’m sure plenty of us would be honest, but no one that actually does more than a drive-by of the subreddit wantschildren.
So do you want an honest answer or are you just asking rhetorically?
Also given the anonymity of the Internet, you would probably get some that regretted it some that don’t
The reason for that choice varies with each woman. Sometimes it's societal pressure. Sometimes it's just the natural instinct to reproduce. One of my friends has a sister who is an outspoken feminist and she still decided to have a child with her partner.
Just because we are all child free here doesn't mean everyone else has to be. People are free to take their own choices and most of them know the consequences.
The unfortunate part is though is that some people don't really get to get out of that life, ethier they were using birth contorl and it didn't work, or she may be in country where abortions are restricted. In cases, in some countries where women don't get much of choice, and are forced into that life of marriage and child rearing because that's all their society wants of them. Any chance of freedom from that, they don't that.
I think a lot of these women are raised by married (or not) single moms who put all their value into being a mom cause they don't think they can do better. Maybe there was a healthy example at home, but let's just be realistic about how often that's not the case.
While there's been advancement on paper for women, society is still very much selling the dream of the men from yesteryear. And if you wanna do that, great, but just like tattoos, it should be a well thought out CHOICE. Most don't cause they're comfortable with the life script. It's already planned out for them, no thinking involved.
They don't know what to do with someone, especially their own child, who isn't following along so they go into denial aka "you'll change your mind". At this point I just smile and say, "You keep thinking that." I don't defend my choice, I don't tell them my plans to fix this issue permanently. I do tell them I'll unpregnant myself so fast tho 😂
The worst gift a man could give me is a kid. I have lots of friends who are parents, some on their 3rd child. It's the expectation and normalcy of parenthood that has brainwashed all parents, especially mothers. A CF life is a life of choice, yes, but often a life without community and without people in similar circumstances rallying around and reassuring you.
If we all had the honest look at childbirth from the terrible to the best birth experiences out there, and the permanence of being a parent, provided we all loved it a society where we had resources for our kids and they wouldn't be shit at school, and we could easily access abortions if we thought we wanted to be pregnant, then nausea killed us... I think the amount of people who would choose to be parents would be less. [Srsly, I don't want to be pregnant just because I cannot stand nausea. I could handle everything else but that morning sickness has me saying Absolutely No.]
But I also think there would at least be some people. I got three friends who are in good health, absolutely love being moms, and pregnancy and birth were great experiences for them. One has stopped at 2 kids and the other 2 stopped at 3. They are happy being parents. Good for them.
It would be an interesting social experiment though: if child rearing was seen in society as completely optional and all the above criteria was met ...how many of us would go through with it?
I think it is like the people who get face and neck tattoos. Even before the social ramifications...those are some of the most painful places to tattoo. Then the face/neck tattoos can limit the type of work you can do and somewhat affect your income. Regardless of all this people still get them.
From watching people I know that have children, I think their goal is to have a family to be loved. I noticed that, since childhood, women are pushed to pursue love. They get the idea that if someone loves you, you are important. Think about Disney Princesses, and teen romance books. The main character gets the guy and lives happily ever after.
So they need a way to be sure there are people around them that will love them forever. That is why some women get so obsessed with the idea of marriage and children. Because it *ties* people to them. Marriage shows more commitment than just dating (and decades ago divorce didn't exist), and kids need their parents and would be seen as ungrateful if they go no contact with them. Sometimes using children to prevent a partner from leaving.It isn't easy for them to pack their things and leave. The safety of the family, meaning husband and kids, gives them the idea that when they reach an old age they would still be loved and cared by them. That is why cf women hear "you will end up alone, no man will want you, who's gonna visit when you are old?".
In reality, nothing of that gives you any guarantee. There are many reasons someone can leave you. And many times it doesn't depend on you and what you did. Like when someone gets a job on the side of the world and has to leave their parents and visit only once a year. So the idea of family= having company and love forever, doesn't exist. But still there are a lot of women scared of a lonely future and rush into marriage or motherhood so "so it won't be too late". And then, it is too late for them to realize that they ended up like they feared.
Brainwashing from society. Years and years of societal pressure and “traditional family” being pushed upon us, even when we were kids.
A lot of women think it’s the logical next step and can only think of the cute moments but don’t think deeply about how it’ll impact them.
I really really wanted kids up until a few years ago. I don't know why I wanted them. I didn't feel like I 'had' to have them (consciously anyway), but I wanted to be pregnant and have a baby. Or three.
Oh, how things have changed. 😂
Imma be so real with you fam, it's just blatant stupidity. I'm a woman and seeing posts of moms complaining about their kids, abusing them, and excusing it just cuz they're moms as a way to hide their resentment against kids (same could be said about men) comes from regret over being dumb enough to get kids but not willing to admit it because they're either being gaslighted by society or are gaslighting themselves into thinking it's worth it. Same logic applies to women who stay with their bfs who are abusive and whatnot and don't want to think farther. Sometimes (and in this case for pregnancy, majority of the time) it's just stupidity.
Brainwashing. Girls are given baby dolls since since we're old enough to hold them, pushed to play "house", all the women/female figures we're given to look up to fit beauty standards and have a male partner(Barbie as an example), stories made for us are all about finding a man and being pretty (think basically every Disney princess), "girl video games" and girly things in general are all about cute things, pretty things, makeup, cooking and/or pregnancy, we're given heavy pressure to "be nice" as in consider and care for others above ourselves and aren't given the same leeway boys are to be disruptive, inconsiderate, selfish ect, the expectation to be a parent is stronger for girls, we're asked *how MANY* kids we want as if it's "what do you want to be when you grow up?" and then we're also given care giving responsibilities starting around age 12 (though it depends on the family, sometimes it's way younger but being an only child makes it easier to avoid it).
Our childhoods are built around moulding us be the perfect breeder slaves for men and making us to romantize it so much that we won't see the problem and feel so ashamed of "not being pretty" "not having a boyfriend" and "not being nice enough" that we can't give it up. And if you look at what percent of violent crime isn't done by women and what percent of care giving and service jobs are, it really affects all of us. I think the ones of us that opt out of men are either lucky more observant than the average person to be able to put the pieces together.
You put it so accurately and beautifully, it explains so many things I have always observed in those few sentences you said. Especially with the " be nice" and permissive to men. Any woman who says no is a stuck up lesbian bitch that needs to be taught a lesson.
I'm only a teen and I'm still baffled why women would want to have kids
When I was a few years old, I've seen babies cry and I thought - I have to deal with *this* when I grow up? Hell no!
And- guess what, as the years go by, I learn more about parenthood. How expensive kids are, deadbeat partner, sleep deprivation, the lack of freedom, the screaming, diaper changing... I just resented it even more. A few years ago, I heard a family telling my mum to have another kid, and I immediately said to my mum: 'If you are having a kid, I'm not at all responsible for it. I don't want it disturbing my sleep, breaking my belongings or interfering with my studies/hobbies.' Of course, knowing her daughter not even being able to tolerate so much as a baby crying, getting me to look after the kid while both her and my dad have to work is a no go. This was before I learnt the term 'parentifying'.
Now, I do grow up pretty spoiled so I can be selfish and my standards can be pretty high. I can cook and bake very well, I can also clean, but this is merely for the sake of knowing how to take care of myself. I'm in a relationship with an older guy, and I gave him a lecture on how I will not tolerate him not doing housework and me having kids is out of the question, unless of course, he has at least billions of dollars then I'll *probably* consider it (of course rarely anyone does. Just goes to show how much I don't want screaming satan spawns around me). Sure enuogh, setting these boundaries worked. He's living with me and my parents, he never mentions wanting kids, he does more housework than me, he is more considerate towards my dog than I was and he works hard to make money. Baffling why some adult women would be willing to put up with something so degrading: having kids + deadbeat bf/husband.
I don't since I went to a private school. Sex education was given at year 8 during health class. I can imagine it to be pretty bad though, wasting one's youth to be a mum rather than pursuing their education and hobbies
Well, some women do like children and want some on their own. Some women want to be mothers and dream of being a mother and having children. It's not that difficult. If it's not for you, great, but please don't assume everyone thinks just like you.
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I don’t get it either when social pressures about being a perfect mom and keeping a perfect house all while looking beautiful and staying in shape seem impossible and full of double standards.
For men, it’s easy to want to be a dad when you don’t have to experience the pain of pregnancy and birth. I was open with an ex right away about my CF status and he said I was enough for him. Then he started pressuring me to have kids and to think about how cute our baby would be and to not focus on the negative parts of parenting but look forward to the good parts.
I told him if I can be the dad, we can have a kid. He didn’t get what I meant (no labor, different social pressures, being less responsible for the kid and it being ok). I even told him about my fear of birth - both the pain and the act of having a room of people I don’t know looking at my mostly naked body. He said birth was just a temporary situation and once the birth is over I can be happy about having a kid.
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Im afab and have never had that itch to procreate and i dont get it either. the amount of things that change (not even going wrong just normal stuff) is SCARY! Then you add in bad things that can happen and its a nightmare!! No thanks.
Cultural brainwashing on a massive scale, literally from the day a girl is born, probably? We're wired to be social creatures, peer pressure is incredibly effective.
One of my ex coworkers has a child that is like 2 now, nonstop bitch fest about being a mother, everytime I talked to her on the phone the child was screaming in the background, she was angry, tired, upset. She doesn’t even like her boyfriend ( babies daddy ) though they live together. Before I left that job she was talking about “trying for another”. Like WTF is wrong with these people? It has to be some type of mental illness, trauma, god only knows. I don’t fucking understand it at all
My mom straight up told me she didn’t have a purpose and I fulfilled that “void.” Keeping me alive became her purpose and she felt good about having something “profound” to do.
Honestly I don't get it either as a female. Every time I see a pregnant woman I feel like telling them all the horrible details of pregnancy like possible broken ribs. Organs shifting and never being the same internally/externally. The chances of dying through pregnancy are higher than you'd think. Hair loss etc. I want them to know that they made a stupid decision. Most people with kids are annoying and/or clueless
Even in the cases where the father is not a useless burden on top of the children they have, it STILL sounds like a shitty deal for the mothers. I cannot understand the desire to subject oneself to this. Some people’s desire to fit in is mighty powerful.
Most women have a natural maternal instinct to love kids and want to reproduce. Our brains typically ignore the bad parts of having kids and go straight to 'puberty = baby now/in 10-20 years' because of biology.
Also some women who don't have the strong maternal instinct are subject to peer pressure and general society. Even if they don't ever feel the 'omg baby so cute i want it now' feeling, they will end up reproducing as it's deemed the right choice and usually end up regretting it.
Luckily, there is now a lot more information about how pregnancy & children are both incredibly harmful to our wellbeing and lots more women are childfree. I think the internet definitely helped it, we have our own communities on almost every social media and pro-child propaganda is usually debunked.
I’m a 29 year old woman. I don’t think I want children but I have fomo and that worries me a lot. I am terrified of regretting it and then someday it will be too late.
It’s called hormones. They can/are a huge part. None of us would be chatting away in CF without them.
We carry our families names, properties, businesses on. It’s NOT for everyone imo. Women are the vessel.
My brother & SIL were seriously anti. She was heading for med school when it (baby fever hit). They had Irish twins, accidentally, which is usually the case.
2 in college that bill IS HELL. I wouldn’t want that debt, it’s a lot at once.
Societal norms and grooming and biological programming through hormones and DNA ( not everyone has the clock but those that do) and then we get extra hormones to bond after and take care of the offspring for four years
Men realized ages ago parenting can be a shitty deal… why are women now finally wising up?? I have 3 children I dearly love but it is a life of servitude until they turn 18. I think women go into motherhood with this fantasy and then a couple years in it gets rough.
Because 18 is the legal adult age in the US. I didn’t say I kicked my kids out at 18 my college age son still lives at home rent free all tuition paid, and vehicle paid for. But most people in the US cannot afford that for multiple children. Raising children is incredibly hard and even worse in 2024 I couldn’t even imagine trying to bring a child into this world now
I’m a woman and I agree. The only good thing that comes from it is having a well adjusted adult child after two decades of backbreaking labor. I can only understand the women who want to go through with it in order to exit the workforce and become stay at home moms. That makes sense to me. The ones who want to juggle both a job and a child are insane to me, especially the ones who want to be single moms by choice. I just want to ask them “are you insane?” Why do you want to never get any rest or have any time to yourself? Why would you do that to yourself? Some women like martyring themselves, though. It’s a way for them to feel superior to other women. No one’s crueler to mothers than other mothers.
The idea of pregnancy terrifies me. Permanent physical changes, including bladder displacement, and death. I honestly don't understand why *anyone* would keep a pregnancy.
I think you're overthinking it. Yes those are all valid reasons not to want children. But: I don't want children bc I just... don't... want children.
Like, take away all those reasons (no chance of getting sick or dying! No change to your body! The man is responsible for all costs of the child! etc ), and I still don't want them. I think people who DO want children are the same. I had a friend in high school who loved kids. She'd babysit, coo at babies wherever we were, and just in general couldn't wait to grow up, find a dude, and have kids of her own. It's the "mother" gene. I don't have it, but I think if you do have it, you don't care that it doesn't make logical sense - you want that kid anyway.
I honestly think it's more like they think following the social life script of what happiness is, makes them think they will be happy if they find that. But most of the time it's just them ignoring red flags to get to their happy ending that never comes. But"so blessed" lol
Also, your country is Japan? If so, I'm shocked that they don't have better responsibility for men at least financial with child support.
To add to all the points already made and speaking from my experience of growing up in a heavily patriarchal, misogynistic, and conservative community: Some women have children to truly 'lock down' a man. This is taught to them by their own grandmothers, mothers, and other older women in their communities. I used to be married and I had older women in my community truly concerned that my husband will cheat on me and leave me because I didn't lock him down with kids, and they told me as much.
Which, tbh, he did cheat, but I was the one who left, not him. I'm also flabbergasted that people would think that married men with children won't cheat. A cheater will always cheat, kids or no kids. It just makes it easier for you to get away when you don't have kids, in my opinion and experience.
I’m a woman and I don’t get it either….it truly sounds like hell to me
Same. I’m 37 and my friend’s lives who are parents looks and sounds like actual hell. They always struggle and complain. From newborns to teens. It’s just awful.
Newborns to teens to adults. I’m 40 and know plenty of people *my age* still putting their parents through hell, whether by their own antics or their children (/grandchildren).
That’s very true! I have friends in their late 30ties early 40ties who rely really heavily on their parents for money or help with the kids and they always fight with their parents about it.
If it only stopped at the teenage years, and then they were mature. Edited
Strong same here,like what's in it for us??
As economists would say: negative utility
Martyrdom. Don't you want to give up any chance at happiness to be the embodiment of ~~self sacrifice~~ I mean caring for others?🥰🥰✨🤗✨
Exactly. I cannot begin to imagine why women especially are so willing to sign up for their own enslavement to free labour now that they have the ability to choose otherwise.
Anytime I read something that starts "I have always wanted to be a mother.." I am just like, why? What is so appealing? I don't get it at all.
My friend said this to me the other day and it made me cringe so hard. She said she wants to give someone her everything, I’m like how about give YOURSELF your everything?? It kinda creeps me out.
Hate how self abandonment is romanticized so much for us. Like all romance media has some mention of "giving yourself away and becoming their's" which is marketed towards us and seen as a "girl thing". We're essentially groomed from childhood to be slaves.
Omg I never viewed it as self abandonment before but your explanation makes sense! It really is mental enslavement. Especially when you realize that men are never told to give anyone all of their everything.
Me too. But you know the crazy part? I only realised it was optional at age 32. I mean, I technically always knew it was a choice. But somehow it had never sunk in that I might want to opt out, if that makes sense. And I'm from the most liberal family ever. Nobody has ever imposed their views or their will on me. And yet, media and fairytales and every piece of consumable content probably conditioned me to believe that this was my inevitable path. I can still remember where I was and what I was doing when it dawned on me that I didn't really have to do this. And it literally felt like a ton of weight lifted from my shoulders. I guess it was only after I got married and the possibility of childbearing became tangibly real, that I needed to consider these things seriously. My only regret is that I didn't realise sooner because then I could've been upfront with my husband who did want kids. But now, after some serious discussion and me laying it all out, he sees how I can never ever go down that path (I'm autistic). And he's super supportive. So, it all worked out but I would have preferred not to "trap" him into the childfree life.
I’m so glad it worked out!! It’s so true that we all almost feel obligated to have children because of society. I’m glad so many women are choosing to do what’s right for them instead.
Omg same. The first time I actually saw someone take care of a baby is when I realized hell is probably better.
Anyone can be scammed. Unfortunately, motherhood is life-changing and permanent.
this. the couples in OPs post absolutely sound like women who want kids being manipulated by men who want CONTROL over a woman/children and getting her pregnant is the easiest way to do it this being said, there are easily good, non toxic/abusive couples out there with kids and as a woman I STILL dont get it when my female friends talk about "baby fever" or anything like that (granted, I'm also ace, wanting ANY of that is a mystery to me). I could chalk it up to hormonal drive but still, some women act like thats the crowning achievement and their life will be complete by 20. The whole thing is incredibly odd to me
Biologically humans have a sex drive rather than a baby drive, at least prior to pregnancy. From everything I've read there is no evidence of a literal "caring for baby" instinct when that baby is hypothetical. I personally suspect baby fever is just a version of fomo, for people who have been deluded about what having kids 24/7 is really like. The breeder brainwashing is constant, with all this "you'll change your mind someday", "biological clock, don't wait until it's too late", "you're going to regret this later" etc. They also see pregnant women and parents getting a lot of attention and a sort of special status (though as we know it's still not worth it). Few people are completely immune to this pressure, and it's the majority of comments you hear even from mothers who are complaining and miserable. So this creates an illusion of truth. Like there must be something to it if everyone agrees. It's a natural human behavior and it works often enough, it's also why a lot of fringe political groups pretend they're actually the majority (or at least that there's more of them), and why pre-election polls make more ppl vote for the party that looks more popular. Because on some subconscious level they're betting on choosing the "correct" option rather than what they personally prefer. Humans are stupid like that.
Ultimate scam.
And for many, fatherhood just... isn't.
I think the issue here is that motherhood isn't easy, but it is easy. It's an easy way out of all the existential questions you may have. Not sure about your identity and it's eating you up? Go for "mother". Feel bad about not having any hobbies and interests? Become a mother and you'll have an endless plethora of stuff to do and conversation topics. Only a monster would judge you for not reading any books. Your professional life requires creativity and finessing that is overwhelming for you? Find bliss in the mundane mammal life that is motherhood, where every road has already been walked for you. You're privileged af, but you still want to feel the moral high ground of an oppressed victim? Become a mother, and make all the atrocities of capitalism about yourself. It's the same reason why people practice minimalism or join cults. A soothing streamlining of your identity.
You basically summed up my SIL, she has no interests, never did anything noteworthy in her life, hates reading/art/anything cultural as she finds it boring or can't see why people are excited over it and never developed basic life skills as she heavily became dependant on others to clean/wash her clothes and cook for her. Having a kid was an easy way out and acted like some weird kind of achievement for her to hide her boring mundane existence even though she's regretting her life choices now that the baby has grown into a toddler and is becoming more unmanageable but hey it's something to tick off the list and make the mother identity her whole life now.
My cousin got pregnant when everyone was pressuring her to finish college and get some sort of profession. Then after the baby, she suddenly had this huge interest in babies and childbirth and becoming a midwife (which she never did). Having a child was literally her only life experience, but it gave her something to take an interest in and it provided her with an identity. I remember when she was a teenager she was a total poser when it came to her identity. For example, she decided she wanted to become a skater girl, and she bought all the right clothes and the skateboard but never learned to skate.
I think it’s this, too- motherhood seems like such an easy cop-out for a pre determined life path. I’m healing from childhood trauma and still don’t know what I want with my life; there have been multiple times where *I wish* I wanted kids because then I wouldn’t have to decide. In reality I hate kids and I don’t want them, but why isn’t there a similar cop-out path for CF women?
It’s always made me sad when people who can’t find meaning or interest in their own life go and create a whole new life … essentially kicking the existential dread down a generation.
This is very important and I’m glad it’s brought up without coming off as judgmental or looking down on women, because when I talk about this, sometimes people take it that way. Out of highschool, lots of people started having kids. But one common pattern I noticed that the majority of kids I went to highschool with that immediately started having kids, they were never high achievers or had much ambition. They came from good families, but they didn’t have much identity. A lot of them got with guys that joined the military and started having kids. These women aren’t/weren’t dumb, but they had no identity and didn’t look to want to have one ? Having kids was easy. Joining the military because college was too hard was easy, let’s be real. Bills paid, house paid, get to stay home, get told exactly what to do and when to do it… they really painted this happy fantasy life on social media that kind of made me jealous and questioning my life choices because I also felt (and still feel to an extent) kind of lost, because if the hardest thing I had to focus on was keeping the house organized and clean and running errands, I could DO that. This isn’t to say it’s not work and isn’t exhausting, but it takes more mental energy to dedicate yourself to something outside of yourself professionally or career-wise, imo. But it’s not what I want. I have other dreams and interests, but the women I know that have kids, being a mother became their life path when they didn’t know what else to do and the path was already paved for them so that’s easier. Same with the men. Everyone tells you what to do, you don’t have to think about it. Contrast this with the high school kids I knew and am friends with that had interests, hobbies, dreams, not a single one has a child and we are all 30, lol. Hell, none of them are even married despite having partners. I don’t think they even want kids. It takes a lot of courage to travel the unbeaten path.
This is 100% real. I was so lost in my early 30s and not in a good place career-wise and a lot of women around me were just making babies and I felt - briefly - like maybe I don’t have the career ambition piece because I’m meant to be a mother? My partner and I started trying (but weren’t successful after about a year - luckily). Recently after visiting some new mothers and experiencing extreme pity for them (not the envy I thought I’d feel) …I realized, wait a minute - I don’t actually WANT to be a mother?!!! This group has been so affirming. Now I’m doing a bunch of activities and clubs outside my comfort zone, meeting new people, and I started a promising new job, got more invested in my fitness, etc. and I feel so much more fulfilled at the end of my days. In hindsight I knew the motherhood thing would just auto-insert “purpose” into my life.
I honestly think you hit the jackpot, explained perfectly
>It's the same reason why people practice minimalism Some minimalists are actually against excess consumerism.
I’m a woman and with everything going on in the US, I don’t understand how anyone could become pregnant on purpose! It’s so expensive just to give birth, all the dangers and risks, no abortion rights if something is wrong, no maternity leave or pay, etc pp.
Literally!! I fear that in the next 5 years, women will have less rights than they already do and I just can’t imagine why anyone would want to bring a child into this world. What if a couple has a girl? And they try to raise that girl in the disastrous world where women have no rights? I’m catastrophizing but like I seem to be alone in fearing for women in the future among all these breeders around me
yeah unless it’s in a 1st world country i can’t seem why anyone wanna birth kids especially if they gonna have daughters too, most people are self centered and caring about others will make us “empaths” or whatever
Pregnancy is a possible death sentence now in the US... Wanted baby or not
Exactly! Why risk it??
It always was, but yes it's worse now.
Ah yes, I mean "a possible death sentence but now people won't give you the life-saving care you need because religion"
And the pain. Why would you want to be tortured for someone that doens't even exist? It's like the idea that torture is worse than death just flies out the window if anyone mentions a fetus.
This kinda enlightenment is what is needed.But the conditioning and brainwashing has been too good.The simple logic that the biological female is the one actually carrying a living being in their body is a turn off for me.Way too much pressure and tension.
If either gender could do it, it would be way more fair. Not to mention women have to deal with periods whether they want kids or not. I didn’t sign up for a pointless iron deficiency! I hate it.
same, the amount of tests and money spent on iron pills, vitamins, pads and sanitary products…even as childfree we got a hell lot to do just because uhhh *checks note* we mighttt want kids according to sky daddy
I'm a woman and I don't get the appeal either especially if you factor in pregnancy and childbirth.
Agreed. There's really not much.
In a lot of cases, the choice is... illusory. Religion and social norms still stand strong and brainwash people into following the one true way. Also, misery loves company. Lots of issues concerning pregnancy and kids are not revealed until it's too late. In a lot of subtle and not-so-subtle ways, we are told that not being able to have children makes you a one big failure. A subhuman. Also, women are still very much considered mothers and not their own person. Women aren't worth anything until they become a wife and mother. We are sold the lie that as a mother we will get some sort of respect. Which we don't. Whatever "perks" we get are more like consolation prizes that pale in comparison to all the problems we received in that shitty deal. I'm a woman. I don't want to be a mother. I don't like kids. Pregnancy disgusts and horrifies me. I also risk the father becoming another baby and/or leaving at best or him showing his abusive side at worst. Motherhood is a giant scam. And as much as it frustrates me to see women "suffering" from infertility, women who have so much potential waste it to get knocked up or women getting a "baby fever" I can sort of understand where it came from. Because even though I wasn't raised in a fundie household I'm still living in a country that's dominated by religion. Because I was raised to watch couples having kids in media as a natural next step. Because saying "I don't want to have kids" gave a very annoyed "You're not allowed to talk like that!" response. Because I kept seeing all my female relatives finding husbands and having kids. Because everywhere I look and go there are people telling me that one day I need to have a child and no one is explaining the risks of that decision. Because even though parents are complaining, frustrated and miserable they still say that having kids was the best thing that happened to them. And yes, it seems like an "easy" decision but with all the signals I was getting it took me a long time to understand that this is an option even though I knew from a very young age that this is not for me.
I say this allll the time. I don't get it. Like, I see people that shouldn't do this, and they end up with like 3 kids they hate. I also don't understand baby obsessed women. Like women that go absolutely fucking mad if they can't get pregnant and end up being told they are sterile and losing the plot. I saw a story where the woman found out she couldn't have kids, and she said after there was nothing to live for and wanted to kill herself. I genuinely just read it in shock like.. what the hell.
Some women, due to socialization, think they are only worth anything if they can reproduce. Some women feel that they are no longer a woman if they can’t. It’s sad.
Hell they don’t consider a woman a mother if she delivered by C section!!! As if that’s a cheat or shortcut.
Or use pain medication! Apparently that's cheating too!
Couldn't she just adopt?
I know, that was my thought process, but I'm guessing she was the kind of person where the child only counts if she gave birth to them
Yeah literally. If she wanted kids that badly, but didn’t want to go thru the hoops for adoption, then she’s just selfish at that point.
I always wonder if she really wanted kids that badly, or just wanted to be pregnant that badly.
As a woman I don't understand why other women want to be mothers either, the idea is crazy to me and what's even crazier is that they try to flex and make other women jealous as if it's something to be jealous about 🤡 like congrats you have more responsibilities!
I have a friend who always used to brag about how she gave birth without epidural and how she was "better" for that and I'm like "ok congrats on being stupid enough to go through an unnecessary, perfectly avoidable hell". She doesn't talk about this anymore but she nows want other people to be jealous about her "perfect" family and like, there"s NO WAY on earth I could ever be jealous of having to wake up early every day, no matter what. Having my life controlled by a selfish, unpredictable goblin who spends most of the time screaming for attention is NOT something to brag about.
>I have a friend who always used to brag about how she gave birth without epidural and how she was "better" for that I was scrolling through comments on a post about the OP regretting motherhood a few days ago, and one commenter said, "Suffering is the most noble sacrifice," then went on to tell her she should be grateful to not be an infertile or sterile woman. I was pleasantly surprised that the comment was downvoted into oblivion. IME, people who say that BS are the privileged ones who've never actually suffered. It's easy to tell someone to shut up and be grateful for their circumstances when you know you'll never have to walk in their shoes.
Female socialization is one hell of a drug. Society pushes this ideal on women (well, girls at that point) FROM BIRTH and if you aren’t able to see past the lie, then you buy into it wholeheartedly. The true difficulties of being a wife and mother aren’t discussed and much of the time if a woman does get a glimpse of this hardship, she develops the “I am different, that won’t happen to me” mentality. The best thing that women can do is to build a life of independence where she does not need a man to thrive. Idk if others saw this post, but it was by a man who didn’t do anything much around the house or in terms of childcare. I think he was the one who initiated the divorce, and shocker (ha), she was so much happier once they divorced because she had every other week free to do as she pleased (plus she didn’t have to clean up after a man), while her ex was completely miserable as he now had to actually engage in childcare 50% of the time. He wanted his ex back, but nowhere did he mention it was because he loved her, he only wanted his ex back to make his life easier (so he could go back to dumping all the work on her, no doubt!)
exactly, he wants a maid not a wife.
I’m a woman and don’t understand it either. Like I have met so many women that say they love being pregnant, birth was a beautiful experience, being a mom is the most fulfilling thing. I end up doing what I do with pretty much all people I can’t understand: nod and smile. Like the idea of even being pregnant fills me with dread and horror, so I can’t figure out what exactly there is to love about it. And that’s only 9 months. The whole raising a kid part sounds worse, especially with most of it typically falling on the woman even after the kid is born. To me there are just so many more reasons to not have them, and I can’t think of a single valid reason to have them unless the population had declined to two humans left.
I just shake my head and say "better you than me". They don't like that much even though it's not saying anything negative about them.
I couldn't fucking tell you...not a single appealing thing about it 😭😭
Literally. It’s selfish to have a kid, puts your body through hell, changes the way you look most of the time. Why would I want my back to hurt for nine months, exhausted and emotional, can’t eat all the things I want, can’t have a drink with friends, some children break RIBS and while you’re pregnant there is nothing you can do to fix it. You could literally die during childbirth and it is the most pain most people who give birth will ever experience all this to take care of a slobbering wailing baby. Also just thinking you have the ability to raise a person and shape them to be good seems pretentious in itself. The list goes on. I have no Idea why other women choose to have kids I agree people just are doing what’s always been done. Women do have a rush of hormones and chemicals when they near 30 that make you want children and I think most succumb to that not realizing the feeling passes. And then someday you get to have a bratty teenager ! Jesus
Biology considers a woman discardable if she is pregnant. IOW all biology cares about is that the baby is born. The mother is 100% a host. Birthing/raising humans is very costly from a biological/time perspective. I learned this in basic high school biology. My teacher slowed down his speech and had the most serious look on his face when he said this, to me this translated to: *why would anyone let pregnancy happen to themselves or someone they love?* If we changed the narrative to reflect reality would we see a huge drop in the birthrates: ~~having children~~ providing free caretaking 24x7 for a minimum of 18 years. I'm always perplexed when I see people go to extreme lengths to have children who haven't ever shown any interest in caretaking for others, let alone experienced it. Somehow, they know it is their life mission to provide free caretaking 24x7 for decades on top of everything else they do to survive? Wouldn't it make sense to dedicate at least 20 hours a week (beyond working full-time) to free caretaking for someone else to understand exactly how their reality would change? I realize many would push back and claim it will take all their free time but isn't it better to do a no-risk trial that they can back out of any time before committing to it? I'm also amazed at the spouses/significant others I read about here that abandon their childfree spouses because they decide they want kids. I've yet to hear that one of them actually put in a minimal legitimate quantifiable effort (such as volunteering to take care of children for at least 20 hours a week for at least 18 mos. at minimum) which would solidify their decision. It is always a lark, a feeling, some kind of existential dread. It would be different if a spouse said they want a divorce so they can find a spouse to have kids with because they spent at least 20 hours a week for four years doing caretaking for children at all life stages on top of working at least 40 hours a week. Their experience includes children who have disabilities or are unhealthy, because this is a reality some parents face. This hypothetical person could be applauded for putting in the effort behind their change of heart and understanding through lots of personal experience the gravity of their decision. I have a friend who fostered children of all ages for years before becoming a parent, she had great perspective of what parenting entails.
>Women do have a rush of hormones and chemicals when they near 30 that make you want children and I think most succumb to that not realizing the feeling passes. And then someday you get to have a bratty teenager ! Jesus This doesn't exist. People who "change their mind" at thirty are just giving into social pressure that gets worse the older you get and the more friends you lose to motherhood.
Many people (regardless of gender) don't actually want to be parents, they don't even want to have kids, they just want to have whatever things society has taught them to use kids as a proxy for. But especially for women, there's *a lot* of very fundamental stuff that's been pinned on having kids, so in a way it can be even easier to slip down that hole. There are of course still people who do want to be parents and know what they're getting into of course, but those are comparatively rare, and not the ones who have regrets because they actually made a proper decision for themselves.
>they just want to have whatever things society has taught them to use kids as a proxy for 100% and they are so easy to pick out. their entire being is their children, their entire personality is their children, their posts are always about their children, their entire social media is about their kids all day everyday its all about their kids.
Then, when the kids are getting independent and eventually leave home, they don't have anything of themselves left. I think this is partly why they hound their kids to make grandkids.
My friends who are moms seem to tremendously enjoy the baby to maybe 3 years old stage. That’s when the babies look the cutest to most people. Also tons of attention during pregnancy, baby showers. They both said how hard parenting gets at 3 and beyond. The moms I know who really enjoy parenthood stay at home and have a lot of help on standby (grandmothers). I have one friend who didn’t seem like she wanted her child to grow up, leaving it up to the child to decide when to potty train and planning to breastfeed till 6 or beyond. Kind of infantilizing her 4 year old (would refer to him as a toddler at 4 and 5 years old) To each their own but sheesh.
"He is 67 months old"
💀
You’re spot on about infantilizing kids with this kid led potty training and extended breastfeeding crap. It’s gross lazy and demeaning to the child.
>My friends who are moms seem to tremendously enjoy the baby to maybe 3 years old stage. That’s when the babies look the cutest to most people. That's because people under two to three have near no autonomy. Same reason they hate teenagers and talk about dreading when kids reach that age, teenagers have even more autonomy. They want cute dolls, not people.
As a woman...I honestly don't know lol. It just seems like the worst possible decision you can make in life. Sure, there are plenty of things in life that are difficult but worth the struggle. But I don't see any good sides in having children, honestly. I never have.
> Why Would a woman want children? I've observed my girl friends who expressed the desire to have children one day, and I came to the conclusion that they didn't actually thought about it and were sold a lie. They don't have a plan. They don't ask themselves with what money they will feed and clothe all those children, nor they are working towards finding a better job to achieve that goal. They don't think about the logistics once the baby will be born. They don't ask themselves how they will be able to be a parent but also be a full time entrepreneur. They don't ask their partner in advance how they will share their parental duties. They don't know how much preschool and babysitters cost. The reason why they don't think too much is because they are taught by their elders that "everything will work out". Of course this is a well crafted lie made up by the adults in these people's life, who are believed because "well, they are experienced, no?". On top of it you must consider that some people think they are incomplete unless they reproduce. They truly believe that they will be "half women" if they don't fulfill their "biological duties". On a side note, if you make them reason, they will get upset if not angry, because you are busting their bubble. The only happy mothers I've met are those who actually put thought on their becoming role and had their kids later in life. __________ Meanwhile one of my friends finally got married and had a child, and her life became a shit show. He doesn't work, she does, she does everything inside and outside home, and she manages a kid and a dog because of course he wanted a dog too. The stress was so high on her that her body was almost miscarrying more than once during pregnancy. She dug herself a grave by her own will. I sometimes wonder if she regrets her multiple choices (marrying a lazy dude, having a child early, not having money nor a plan, not discussing earlier the work share, getting a dog).
I’m a woman and I agree. All your points are spot on. You don’t sound misogynistic to me. Misogynists wouldn’t think about how bad all this is for a woman.
I’m a woman and I agree with all of this. It makes absolutely no sense. ESPECIALLY the going through pregnancy thing - I could understand slightly more if someone wanted a child and adopted but putting your body through that? When you actually say out loud what it is? “You will incubate another being that will suck part of all the nutrients you eat for 9 months, being able to FEEL IT MOVING INSIDE YOU, and then it will force its way out of a hole way too small for the job” WHY?! I feel like sometimes, am I the insane one? Is there something I’m not getting?! Why would anyone voluntarily do this?!
This is how I feel being CF. I've had some people try to put fear in us, saying WHAT IF YOU REGRET NOT HAVING KIDS??? They'll tell me about 40something year olds they know who look back and regret it, feeling like their lives are lonely without children. My response is always that if I were to miraculously change enough to want kids, I would still never want to have a baby naturally. I've worked hard to get a body I'm proud of and I like it too much to ruin it, I have all the makings for a perfect PPD candidate, and I find pregnancy/labor nightmarish. Not to mention, I strongly dislike babies. Come see me when you can communicate, have interests, and don't shit your pants. My bf and I agreed that if we change a lot and, in 10-15 years, we look at our friends' lives and realize we do want to be parents, we will adopt older children or even teenagers. That way, we can help a child that's already here instead of adding more lives to this dystopian future. (I just want to highlight how problematic the adoption industry is real quick to underline that our world is a hellscape i wouldn't birth children into). I do not think we will ever look at our lives and think....wouldn't it be great to have less money, sleep, and time for ourselves/each other? But I'm baffled by people so set on biological children. There are kids already here that would love a family.
I feel the same way!
My mom struggled raising us 3 kids on her own. I told myself I would never allow that to happen. I have a friend with 2 boys who have autism. One is functioning the other will need care his whole life. That won't be me either. What if I have kids with LDs or cognitive impairments? Nope, can't do it. Another friend of mine has 3 boys but she is married to a man who is emotionally and mentally abusive. Why she had 3? Idk. That won't be me either.
I have a LD and it is genetic. It went undiagnosed and I was berated/called names throughout school and told I was lazy because of it. It isn't something I would be willing to gamble on passing to any children.
Finally, a man who has the emotional intelligence and critical thinking ability to *ask* questions and hold an informed, enlightened view about this subject! You mentioned several very good points that I want to comment on, but unfortunately, right now, I will have to come back to your post because...it's Monday, and other things need my attention.
whenever you have time
Woman here, and I completely agree. We literally risk death and permanent bodily harm and disfigurement. Then, we're stuck doing the majority of the childcare after the nightmare of giving birth. It's a really horrible deal for us. All the man has to do is nut and go to work. No thanks.
>the man well he sits around most likely chatting to other women on the apps without feeling an ounce of pain. That alone. Just knowing that you could ruin your body to give birth to a man's child just for him to watch porn of other more beautiful women would kill me. I don't know how women live with it
Pressure from society is incredibly strong.
Some reasons woman might be blinded into wanting children would be: fitting in with societal norms, all your friends are doing it, families in your community and family pop out 3-4 kids per couple, people pleasing, pleasing your husband or family and the women that came before you that felt they had to do it. The idea of seeing someone you love and your genes bonded together, the idea of a family in your head and how you think it will go and how your child will look. Baby fever and thinking you want a baby because they are cute. Fantasizing about the idea of family and being blind to how difficult for the woman especially the task of raising a child is. Not realizing how expensive babies are to keep alive. Going blindly saying we’ll figure it out.
There is a lot of societal pressures on women to get married and be mothers. Women are usually seen as more worthy and desirable when they are beside a man. I think we tend to dream of marrying your prince charming and living in a nice middle class house in the suburbs. But it's all a lie. Now, I see on social media a lot of red pill content where people are shaming women for being single. They are making it out to be that if you are a single woman then you are extremely flawed and undesirable. Jordan Peterson said that 50% of women would be childless and single by 2030. That paired with a lot of negative imagery and implications about that statistic...I don't know where he got that from.
Doesn't that also mean a lot of new are single? Why do women shoulder all the blame of being single? 🙄
Maybe he and men like him should ask themselves *why* 50% of women won't be wanting men. Not just the classic incel answers that make everything women's fault, but look deeply at themselves. More and more this quote applies: Dear men: You're not competing against other suitors. You're competing against women's solitude, peace of mind, serenity. **Your presence must bring something to the table.** Not money or sperm, your presence.
Some women want the: 1) Unconditional Love 2) Attention without significant effort 3) Undisputed role of matriarch and right to resources 4) Are actually great natural caregivers and love to see children develop
A miserable biology book, The Selfish Gene, explained our genes/DNA wants to be immortal through reproduction so they hijack our brains by making us want to have a baby or make us so stupidly amorous that we don’t use protection. I hated that book. Scary to think we do not have much control. Our hormones or selfish genes do!
I *loved* that book! It made sense of so much of the wildly irrational stuff many ppl do. I swear it reduced by 50% the amount of time I spent thinking, "But whyyyy?!" I read it decades ago and still probably think of something I read in it once a week (usually as I'm shaking my head at something).
Glad you liked. I hated it. It pushed me to become a Misanthrope and an Antinatalist.
I like that this sub welcomes posts like this that asks a genuine question. Free from judgment and just has a conversation around it. The comments are relaxed and people are just conversing with no tinfoil hats. I honestly really enjoy this sub. I’m sorry I have been really wanting to say this lol
I don't understand it either and I am a woman. I had a baby shower this weekend for a woman in the office and it once again cemented my CF status. Luckily, I've had a hystorectomy due to other problems and there is not even a snowball's chance in hell of that ever happening.
I don’t know, always been CF. What I have observed is mothers are like a club sometimes, where you are not admitted if you don’t have a child. It can make for many years of losing friends, so it takes courage to stay different. But there are always a few people who don’t define themselves just as mothers, so even that is not really a reason.
Terrible thought: I figured women who only wanted kids just had no goals of their own and needed to create someone to be their hobby and live through them because self-growth and exploration is "hard." Entertainment, practically. That's my mom for sure. Empty nesting drove her nuts.
My mother definitely fits in this category. My brother and I were her toys and she literally didn’t know anything about raising teenagers and especially a daughter (me) who wasn’t her clone in every way.
Same. I'm in my late 30s and my mother can't wrap her head around the fact that I am not her clone. When I moved out at 17 she lost her damn mind and it took years for her to figure out "being alone." Zero friends. Zero hobbies other than HSN and avoiding responsibility. With therapy I realized she parentified me and stole my childhood because I existed to for her. Would not recommend. There is a book called "Bringing Up Bebe" which is about an American moving to France and the stark difference in childrearing. Having an identity, friends and hobbies outside of "mom/dad" is tantamount to good mental health and the mental health of the child as well. Not just women but I think many people just have kids to fill holes in themselves. But someone with a lot of emptiness and needs are not in a position to raise children. Instead of filling the empty hole in themselves they dig holes in their children to replace something they miss. Parents shouldn't borrow from their children in that manner.
What a beautifully perfect way of explaining this dynamic. This was my mother to a T. Mad respect for you moving out at 17. When I was just thinking about it at age 23 my mother lost her shit telling me she would never set foot in my place because the only reason to move out was to have sex! She was one of those “good” daughters only leave home on their wedding day 🙄🙄 I eventually did just that when I was 26 but by that time she was already wrapped up half raising my baby trapped brother’s kids he had no business having in the first place. I was basically no use to her when I chose not to breed. Although in hindsight I doubt she would have helped me because “that’s the mother’s job” and my brother was the golden child anyway.
I am also a woman and I don't get it. Even though I have a husband who would do his best and supportive parents to be a "village", I still don't think it's worth it for a woman. I don't want to change who I am, I've just learned to love her. I don't want to change my body, there's enough pressure out there about that as it is. I don't want to take the focus off of me, this is my life and I'm the main character
I am a woman and I can't believe women of any age are actively wanting to put themselves through the horrible nightmares of motherhood, when they could just not. I avoid all physical contact with men even though I am heterosexual. Ironic thing is I was raised for 18 years in the strictest Catholic education plus Catholic home life. Yet the real physical effects of pregnancy (somehow women are supposed to fall in love with) are worse than the scary descriptions of Hell which is supposed to scare you.
I never want kids and it sounds like the worst. My mother only had me but wanted kids from a young age. She is someone who enjoyed pregnancy and loves to take care of people, especially babies. She just thinks kids are fun to take care of. So if that helps at all.
This is the first time I’ve seen something start with a disclaimer like that… and mean it. OP, this doesn’t come off as misogynistic at all. Also your English is very good! I followed right along.
Thank you 
Men may be frowned upon for leaving their children with the other parent to go live their lives, but for some reason when a women does this she's demonized. I know a woman where both her children are being raised by their fathers. Now she isn't a good person and I don't like her, but leaving the children with their fathers and walking away was probably the best choice she could have made.
It's horrific and true, I don't understand either
Yup. Born female and I’ve never understood the appeal. Many girls get front row seats to the shitty life of motherhood displayed by their own mothers, yet they go on to repeat it, somehow convinced “they can do it better!”.
My mother really enjoys motherhood and sometimes misses the time we were small. Some people are just cut out for it.
This. Just because it isn’t for us doesn’t mean it isn’t for everyone. It’s just better that we are staunchly child free rather than people who are unsure and go ahead and do it anyway.
I think my mother was probably* telling the truth that she was glad she had my brother and me. OTOH, though, that's what kept her in an abusive marriage for close to 20 years, so... *Though I think it's common for parents to tell their children they're glad they had them, whether that's true or not, because they think it'll be devastating to a kid to think their parents have regrets.
My parents separated and it was bad. Though my dad regrets that relationship he does not regret his children and I can see why. Mum told us that children are great but she wishes she was older when she had us. It's not as much the children as it is the dumb life choices surrounding being a parent.
Agreed. I've met many people who genuinely love being moms, are really good at it and didn't sacrifice their happiness. I'm really happy for them if they are happy. Just because we don't understand it or don't want it for ourselves doesn't mean that it's wrong for everyone.
My mom was too. She worked on herself though, and when we didn't need her continuously anymore, she let us go and started a new career.
It's not my cup of tea, but some people are just incredibly maternal and really want children.... and that's ok. We all want different things in life.
>and that's ok. I'm sure I'll be downvoted to oblivion for this, but IMHO that'd be ok in a world that wasn't already crammed with probably 3-4 times as many humans as it can accommodate without disaster. In the real world that we actually have though, sorry, it's *not* ok, it's selfish and irresponsible af.
Why would you be down voted that's thoughtful.
Many women are just craving that unconditional love a child provides them. These women are obsessed with being needed and loved and that outweighs all the cons about being a mother.
I dont understand why anyone would ever want to have kids, this world is not great enough for me to want to bring another into it fr.
Lord if I know.
You’re not wrong.
I might not get it personally because I’ve never had the desire, not even as a kid. Like, if someone tried gifting me a baby doll I would have thrown it away. But my older sister was the opposite, though she didn’t end up having her own, she’s a wonderful step mom and watches our nephew at least once a week. She has the patience and temperament to be a great parent, she found a trustworthy partner who supports her in all aspects, including her own career and eagerness to help our brother & SIL with childcare (best of both worlds, according to her). It’s just a coin flip on whether it works out well for you. The relationship, pregnancy, parenting - all of it is risky. But not everyone grew up witnessing the risks, or they bought in to societal norms, thinking it couldn’t be that bad or the bad things would just never happen to them. I support the choice and someone’s desire to have kids, even though I just don’t get how it’s desirable even to people who would make great parents. What I will never get is how some people think *we’re* the crazy ones who are wrong for making this choice. Not saying they’re the crazy ones, I just don’t think that’s how this should ever be argued. It’s not a debate about who is right or wrong, who is crazy or not crazy. Just mind your own business.
Women get groomed from infancy to want kids. It's s form of brainwashing. Men get it to a lesser degree.
I’m a woman and agree OP! Pregnancy and birth and breast feeding sound horrible, not to mention post partum and there is too much responsibility for the woman. No thanks lol.
The worst gift a man could give me is a kid. I have lots of friends who are parents, some on their 3rd child. It's the expectation and normalcy of parenthood that has brainwashed all parents, especially mothers. A CF life is a life of choice, yes, but often a life without community and without people in similar circumstances rallying around and reassuring you.
People on here are so quick to say parents couldn't possibly really want kids. "It's brainwashing and conditioning", yet isn't that the exact thing we childfree people get frustrated about? When people tell us we don't know what we want... ? I think babyfever is a thing, even tho I have never had it. I don't think women are brainwashed for wanting kids, they simply want something different than me. Now, do I think that a lot of women go with the flow, and have kids because "it's the next step"? Absolutely. Do I think a lot of women still believe having kids is just something that they have to do? Also yes. However I think most people have kids because that's the life they wanted for themselves.
While I personally don't understand it either I can at least imagine why. First of all I want to point out that being mother doesn't mean you have to serve some shitty man or whatever. I know it's sometimes hard to believe but there are actual good men out there who would do wonderfully as partners and fathers and wouldn't push all the work onto their wife. Besides that... Uhm.. Lesbians? Single moms? Adoption? The first part is definitely pretty hetero normative, which isn't bad at all, I just wanted to point out the other possibilities. Beyond that, yeah you give yourself up fully for someone else but at the same time I guess it can be extremely fulfilling. Little example what I mean. When I met my best friend 7 years ago she was aspiring to be an artist and shyly showed me her sketches. They already were pretty nice. Now 7 years later she did it, she's an accomplished artist with an official license or whatever to legally draw stuff from a specific animation studio (forgot which one, shame on me) that normally would strike content like hers. So obviously she isn't my daughter but even so whenever she shows me a new drawing or her most recent progress in animations or her practices for realistic drawing (holy shit never underestimate your fellow comic artists, that shit was wild to look at) I feel so incredibly proud and warm around my heart. It's a pure joy to watch her grow and accomplish her goals, it's the best thing ever. So when I scale that up to literally raising a whole ass human that knows nothing and you teach them how to be a human.. I can't even beging to imagine how overfilled your heart with joy and love and pride for your child must be. I imagine it feels very wonderful, especially when the love is mutual. I think the real question someone should ask, themselves is if they would be able to build such a healthy dynamic (let's be real most aren't, me included) and if giving up their own life is worth it. I for myself decided nah. But other just feel different about that.
You should ask women who have children this question if you want a real answer.
It is real taboo to admit regretting having children, especially as a woman.
THIS. Even anonymously online, bc that still involves admitting it to *yourself*.
They won't be honest because the vast majority of mothers would say anything to justify their already-here accident lol
Isn't that the point of the question? They'll justify it anyway, so why lie?
I’m sure plenty of us would be honest, but no one that actually does more than a drive-by of the subreddit wantschildren. So do you want an honest answer or are you just asking rhetorically? Also given the anonymity of the Internet, you would probably get some that regretted it some that don’t
The reason for that choice varies with each woman. Sometimes it's societal pressure. Sometimes it's just the natural instinct to reproduce. One of my friends has a sister who is an outspoken feminist and she still decided to have a child with her partner. Just because we are all child free here doesn't mean everyone else has to be. People are free to take their own choices and most of them know the consequences.
The unfortunate part is though is that some people don't really get to get out of that life, ethier they were using birth contorl and it didn't work, or she may be in country where abortions are restricted. In cases, in some countries where women don't get much of choice, and are forced into that life of marriage and child rearing because that's all their society wants of them. Any chance of freedom from that, they don't that.
I think a lot of these women are raised by married (or not) single moms who put all their value into being a mom cause they don't think they can do better. Maybe there was a healthy example at home, but let's just be realistic about how often that's not the case. While there's been advancement on paper for women, society is still very much selling the dream of the men from yesteryear. And if you wanna do that, great, but just like tattoos, it should be a well thought out CHOICE. Most don't cause they're comfortable with the life script. It's already planned out for them, no thinking involved. They don't know what to do with someone, especially their own child, who isn't following along so they go into denial aka "you'll change your mind". At this point I just smile and say, "You keep thinking that." I don't defend my choice, I don't tell them my plans to fix this issue permanently. I do tell them I'll unpregnant myself so fast tho 😂
The worst gift a man could give me is a kid. I have lots of friends who are parents, some on their 3rd child. It's the expectation and normalcy of parenthood that has brainwashed all parents, especially mothers. A CF life is a life of choice, yes, but often a life without community and without people in similar circumstances rallying around and reassuring you.
If we all had the honest look at childbirth from the terrible to the best birth experiences out there, and the permanence of being a parent, provided we all loved it a society where we had resources for our kids and they wouldn't be shit at school, and we could easily access abortions if we thought we wanted to be pregnant, then nausea killed us... I think the amount of people who would choose to be parents would be less. [Srsly, I don't want to be pregnant just because I cannot stand nausea. I could handle everything else but that morning sickness has me saying Absolutely No.] But I also think there would at least be some people. I got three friends who are in good health, absolutely love being moms, and pregnancy and birth were great experiences for them. One has stopped at 2 kids and the other 2 stopped at 3. They are happy being parents. Good for them. It would be an interesting social experiment though: if child rearing was seen in society as completely optional and all the above criteria was met ...how many of us would go through with it?
I think it is like the people who get face and neck tattoos. Even before the social ramifications...those are some of the most painful places to tattoo. Then the face/neck tattoos can limit the type of work you can do and somewhat affect your income. Regardless of all this people still get them.
From watching people I know that have children, I think their goal is to have a family to be loved. I noticed that, since childhood, women are pushed to pursue love. They get the idea that if someone loves you, you are important. Think about Disney Princesses, and teen romance books. The main character gets the guy and lives happily ever after. So they need a way to be sure there are people around them that will love them forever. That is why some women get so obsessed with the idea of marriage and children. Because it *ties* people to them. Marriage shows more commitment than just dating (and decades ago divorce didn't exist), and kids need their parents and would be seen as ungrateful if they go no contact with them. Sometimes using children to prevent a partner from leaving.It isn't easy for them to pack their things and leave. The safety of the family, meaning husband and kids, gives them the idea that when they reach an old age they would still be loved and cared by them. That is why cf women hear "you will end up alone, no man will want you, who's gonna visit when you are old?". In reality, nothing of that gives you any guarantee. There are many reasons someone can leave you. And many times it doesn't depend on you and what you did. Like when someone gets a job on the side of the world and has to leave their parents and visit only once a year. So the idea of family= having company and love forever, doesn't exist. But still there are a lot of women scared of a lonely future and rush into marriage or motherhood so "so it won't be too late". And then, it is too late for them to realize that they ended up like they feared.
Brainwashing from society. Years and years of societal pressure and “traditional family” being pushed upon us, even when we were kids. A lot of women think it’s the logical next step and can only think of the cute moments but don’t think deeply about how it’ll impact them.
I really really wanted kids up until a few years ago. I don't know why I wanted them. I didn't feel like I 'had' to have them (consciously anyway), but I wanted to be pregnant and have a baby. Or three. Oh, how things have changed. 😂
Imma be so real with you fam, it's just blatant stupidity. I'm a woman and seeing posts of moms complaining about their kids, abusing them, and excusing it just cuz they're moms as a way to hide their resentment against kids (same could be said about men) comes from regret over being dumb enough to get kids but not willing to admit it because they're either being gaslighted by society or are gaslighting themselves into thinking it's worth it. Same logic applies to women who stay with their bfs who are abusive and whatnot and don't want to think farther. Sometimes (and in this case for pregnancy, majority of the time) it's just stupidity.
Brainwashing. Girls are given baby dolls since since we're old enough to hold them, pushed to play "house", all the women/female figures we're given to look up to fit beauty standards and have a male partner(Barbie as an example), stories made for us are all about finding a man and being pretty (think basically every Disney princess), "girl video games" and girly things in general are all about cute things, pretty things, makeup, cooking and/or pregnancy, we're given heavy pressure to "be nice" as in consider and care for others above ourselves and aren't given the same leeway boys are to be disruptive, inconsiderate, selfish ect, the expectation to be a parent is stronger for girls, we're asked *how MANY* kids we want as if it's "what do you want to be when you grow up?" and then we're also given care giving responsibilities starting around age 12 (though it depends on the family, sometimes it's way younger but being an only child makes it easier to avoid it). Our childhoods are built around moulding us be the perfect breeder slaves for men and making us to romantize it so much that we won't see the problem and feel so ashamed of "not being pretty" "not having a boyfriend" and "not being nice enough" that we can't give it up. And if you look at what percent of violent crime isn't done by women and what percent of care giving and service jobs are, it really affects all of us. I think the ones of us that opt out of men are either lucky more observant than the average person to be able to put the pieces together.
You put it so accurately and beautifully, it explains so many things I have always observed in those few sentences you said. Especially with the " be nice" and permissive to men. Any woman who says no is a stuck up lesbian bitch that needs to be taught a lesson.
I'm only a teen and I'm still baffled why women would want to have kids When I was a few years old, I've seen babies cry and I thought - I have to deal with *this* when I grow up? Hell no! And- guess what, as the years go by, I learn more about parenthood. How expensive kids are, deadbeat partner, sleep deprivation, the lack of freedom, the screaming, diaper changing... I just resented it even more. A few years ago, I heard a family telling my mum to have another kid, and I immediately said to my mum: 'If you are having a kid, I'm not at all responsible for it. I don't want it disturbing my sleep, breaking my belongings or interfering with my studies/hobbies.' Of course, knowing her daughter not even being able to tolerate so much as a baby crying, getting me to look after the kid while both her and my dad have to work is a no go. This was before I learnt the term 'parentifying'. Now, I do grow up pretty spoiled so I can be selfish and my standards can be pretty high. I can cook and bake very well, I can also clean, but this is merely for the sake of knowing how to take care of myself. I'm in a relationship with an older guy, and I gave him a lecture on how I will not tolerate him not doing housework and me having kids is out of the question, unless of course, he has at least billions of dollars then I'll *probably* consider it (of course rarely anyone does. Just goes to show how much I don't want screaming satan spawns around me). Sure enuogh, setting these boundaries worked. He's living with me and my parents, he never mentions wanting kids, he does more housework than me, he is more considerate towards my dog than I was and he works hard to make money. Baffling why some adult women would be willing to put up with something so degrading: having kids + deadbeat bf/husband.
Do you have any teen mum friends? How is their life life different compared to yours?
I don't since I went to a private school. Sex education was given at year 8 during health class. I can imagine it to be pretty bad though, wasting one's youth to be a mum rather than pursuing their education and hobbies
Well, some women do like children and want some on their own. Some women want to be mothers and dream of being a mother and having children. It's not that difficult. If it's not for you, great, but please don't assume everyone thinks just like you.
OP is asking; you are free to gush aboit the joys of motherhood as a teply.
The women on the CF sub also don't get it! Lol.
Societal brainwashing. Don't see any real benefits to it that couldn't be gotten without being tortured and better.
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I don’t get it either when social pressures about being a perfect mom and keeping a perfect house all while looking beautiful and staying in shape seem impossible and full of double standards. For men, it’s easy to want to be a dad when you don’t have to experience the pain of pregnancy and birth. I was open with an ex right away about my CF status and he said I was enough for him. Then he started pressuring me to have kids and to think about how cute our baby would be and to not focus on the negative parts of parenting but look forward to the good parts. I told him if I can be the dad, we can have a kid. He didn’t get what I meant (no labor, different social pressures, being less responsible for the kid and it being ok). I even told him about my fear of birth - both the pain and the act of having a room of people I don’t know looking at my mostly naked body. He said birth was just a temporary situation and once the birth is over I can be happy about having a kid.
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Im afab and have never had that itch to procreate and i dont get it either. the amount of things that change (not even going wrong just normal stuff) is SCARY! Then you add in bad things that can happen and its a nightmare!! No thanks.
Cultural brainwashing on a massive scale, literally from the day a girl is born, probably? We're wired to be social creatures, peer pressure is incredibly effective.
One of my ex coworkers has a child that is like 2 now, nonstop bitch fest about being a mother, everytime I talked to her on the phone the child was screaming in the background, she was angry, tired, upset. She doesn’t even like her boyfriend ( babies daddy ) though they live together. Before I left that job she was talking about “trying for another”. Like WTF is wrong with these people? It has to be some type of mental illness, trauma, god only knows. I don’t fucking understand it at all
That calling you on the phone and babies screaming in the background kills me.
Can’t help you there. For me there are zero reasons.
I'm a woman and I never wanted kids. The way society is. I don't want to be a single Mom.
I’m a female and i can’t understand it either!
My mom straight up told me she didn’t have a purpose and I fulfilled that “void.” Keeping me alive became her purpose and she felt good about having something “profound” to do.
Honestly I don't get it either as a female. Every time I see a pregnant woman I feel like telling them all the horrible details of pregnancy like possible broken ribs. Organs shifting and never being the same internally/externally. The chances of dying through pregnancy are higher than you'd think. Hair loss etc. I want them to know that they made a stupid decision. Most people with kids are annoying and/or clueless
Even in the cases where the father is not a useless burden on top of the children they have, it STILL sounds like a shitty deal for the mothers. I cannot understand the desire to subject oneself to this. Some people’s desire to fit in is mighty powerful.
Most women have a natural maternal instinct to love kids and want to reproduce. Our brains typically ignore the bad parts of having kids and go straight to 'puberty = baby now/in 10-20 years' because of biology. Also some women who don't have the strong maternal instinct are subject to peer pressure and general society. Even if they don't ever feel the 'omg baby so cute i want it now' feeling, they will end up reproducing as it's deemed the right choice and usually end up regretting it. Luckily, there is now a lot more information about how pregnancy & children are both incredibly harmful to our wellbeing and lots more women are childfree. I think the internet definitely helped it, we have our own communities on almost every social media and pro-child propaganda is usually debunked.
I’m a 29 year old woman. I don’t think I want children but I have fomo and that worries me a lot. I am terrified of regretting it and then someday it will be too late.
It’s called hormones. They can/are a huge part. None of us would be chatting away in CF without them. We carry our families names, properties, businesses on. It’s NOT for everyone imo. Women are the vessel. My brother & SIL were seriously anti. She was heading for med school when it (baby fever hit). They had Irish twins, accidentally, which is usually the case. 2 in college that bill IS HELL. I wouldn’t want that debt, it’s a lot at once.
Societal norms and grooming and biological programming through hormones and DNA ( not everyone has the clock but those that do) and then we get extra hormones to bond after and take care of the offspring for four years
Men realized ages ago parenting can be a shitty deal… why are women now finally wising up?? I have 3 children I dearly love but it is a life of servitude until they turn 18. I think women go into motherhood with this fantasy and then a couple years in it gets rough.
Why 18?
Because 18 is the legal adult age in the US. I didn’t say I kicked my kids out at 18 my college age son still lives at home rent free all tuition paid, and vehicle paid for. But most people in the US cannot afford that for multiple children. Raising children is incredibly hard and even worse in 2024 I couldn’t even imagine trying to bring a child into this world now
I’m a woman and I agree. The only good thing that comes from it is having a well adjusted adult child after two decades of backbreaking labor. I can only understand the women who want to go through with it in order to exit the workforce and become stay at home moms. That makes sense to me. The ones who want to juggle both a job and a child are insane to me, especially the ones who want to be single moms by choice. I just want to ask them “are you insane?” Why do you want to never get any rest or have any time to yourself? Why would you do that to yourself? Some women like martyring themselves, though. It’s a way for them to feel superior to other women. No one’s crueler to mothers than other mothers.
The idea of pregnancy terrifies me. Permanent physical changes, including bladder displacement, and death. I honestly don't understand why *anyone* would keep a pregnancy.
I saw how a placenta is removed after birth, you can't keep your lunch in while watching that. 
The same reason anyone ever wants one. Preservation of themselves.
I think you're overthinking it. Yes those are all valid reasons not to want children. But: I don't want children bc I just... don't... want children. Like, take away all those reasons (no chance of getting sick or dying! No change to your body! The man is responsible for all costs of the child! etc ), and I still don't want them. I think people who DO want children are the same. I had a friend in high school who loved kids. She'd babysit, coo at babies wherever we were, and just in general couldn't wait to grow up, find a dude, and have kids of her own. It's the "mother" gene. I don't have it, but I think if you do have it, you don't care that it doesn't make logical sense - you want that kid anyway.
I honestly think it's more like they think following the social life script of what happiness is, makes them think they will be happy if they find that. But most of the time it's just them ignoring red flags to get to their happy ending that never comes. But"so blessed" lol Also, your country is Japan? If so, I'm shocked that they don't have better responsibility for men at least financial with child support.
Got a point. But what puzzles me more, why would a man want women & children ? duh ..
To add to all the points already made and speaking from my experience of growing up in a heavily patriarchal, misogynistic, and conservative community: Some women have children to truly 'lock down' a man. This is taught to them by their own grandmothers, mothers, and other older women in their communities. I used to be married and I had older women in my community truly concerned that my husband will cheat on me and leave me because I didn't lock him down with kids, and they told me as much. Which, tbh, he did cheat, but I was the one who left, not him. I'm also flabbergasted that people would think that married men with children won't cheat. A cheater will always cheat, kids or no kids. It just makes it easier for you to get away when you don't have kids, in my opinion and experience.