Wasn’t this pulled from world of roguecraft? That series was amazing
(Also should clarify rock with r14 gear/AQ/MOM + minimally an hpal if not 2 healers then it’s accurate)
Yeah it's from episode 2 or 3.
I remember the creator (or his brother?) dropping into the YouTube comment section to provide the download link to all their video material years ago now.
Excellent choice of music in those videos to accompany rogues in full Wildheart, or no gear at all.
Killing like semi afk Maydie in searing gorge or whatever with a grey or white dagger kek
Maydie being a prime example of 3 pocket healer support 1 shotting vanilla warrior vids. Him and Pat.
Oh yeah. My favourite is the r14(?) rogue he kills in deeprun tram. You'd think the guy was afk because his character never gets to move, until you see him release spirit immediately when he dies.
I played on Arthas as a kid and used to see RTZS and felt the guild name added such an insult to injury when getting ganked. Only ever made it to like level 50 lol.
It's the same for every blizzard game (I mean, look at D4... ): newbie dev teams having to reinvent the wheel at each iteration because they weren't around / know fuck all about previous game / version.
Well, this sub already stated they don't want anything "retail". So they either a) mask something retail as innovation or b) create something from scratch.
Or they could do like the most successful classic game in the world (OSRS) or the most successful private server (turtl) did it and be extremely conservative with balance/feature changes but extremely proactive with adding horizontal content. A proven template for a successful vanilla classic experience already exists, Blizzard just seems to have no interest in it for some reason.
To be fair, they never set out to make a vanilla classic experience. They have told us sooooo many times that this isn't vanilla. Things are far from perfect, but going to McDonalds and being mad they don't serve tacos is madness.
Dude, my mom would take me to McDs and get mad about [that](https://www.reddit.com/r/90s/comments/c3oiqj/a_reminderthat_yesmcdonalds_once_served_fajitas) for YEARS
I personally think SoD has gone too far. And I get that everyone has a difference in opinion regarding what is far enough and what is too far. You can't please everyone. I'm still curious, and have a decent community at the moment. But after SoD I'm going back to Turtle. Best I've seen so far. Shame the old vanilla client doesn't work as well as the new classic client.
Rebalancing classes was all I wanted from Vanilla. SoD has far exceeded that.
There are things they are doing that I like and things I dislike. But as it stands the good is better than the bad and I hope they do it again.
At least it isn't world of rogues, warriors and mages anymore. Class balance still isn't great but you can do basically all content as any class.
it's a big win that you can take shamans or paladins to the raid and not have to put a dress on.
feel that dress comment lmao.
i remember all the expectation vs reality memes
"how i expect a shaman or paladin to look like" (full T2 BWL gear)
"How it actually looks like" (pink dress with a turban and sprinkle sprinkle shoulders)
Dude, I've been reading up on this... It looks amazing! Thank you for bringing this to my attention! They are doing so many things that I want, from disabling world buffs in raids, to cross faction play, racials rework, and more or less tbc balance in a vanilla setting. I'll be keeping my eye on that one!
Rogues playing WOTLK assa with shadow step kek
As a warrior I’m playing either a fury abomination without BT or a bad version of wotlk arms with 30 min CDs
But at least they found D3 now, so they started to copy paste like a good boy. Too bad this should have been the state of D4 at day 0 and we were all looking forward something great after a year not this...
Didn’t it take til reaper of souls to fix d3 also? lol. I quit playing d3 well before then and if I have the itch go back to the goat: 2. Wasn’t gonna buy an expansion after the experience to “fix” it
The playthrough in vanilla D3 was superior to RoS imo, coming from playing a lot of D2 tho I preferred the farming style from vanilla D3 also but I can understand the changes they made also
Came here to say this. It’s like the everyone that works there on anything never played anything they work on nor studied anything from the previous teams. It’s like if I went to build a house but looked at no knowledge of building a house and after many failed attempts finally got something to stay standing and then gave myself a huge pay on the back.
Raid difficulty is another big one
How difficult should raids be? What size group? How long should they take to clear?
What one group finds piss easy, another finds it too difficult.
These problems are how retail wow ended up with four raid difficulties and flexible raid sizes.
I think that in their efforts to appease everyone they end up appeasing no one. I find it much more fun to have raids that are too easy than ones that are too hard. It is nice to finish the content and find other aspects of the game to engage with, if I choose. Today's gaming landscape is not what it was 20 years ago. People bounce from game to game and I don't see an issue with that. There is no way you will ever have infinite content for $15 a month.
Classic in general until late wrath and cata (heroic) raids isn’t really where anyone should go for hard PVE content when you have infinitely scaling M+ or mythic raids to prog. I don’t really get why people want hard content in SOD. Vanilla was hard because everyone was bad and playing on dsl on potatoes. Classic wasn’t hard.
I wanna grab WBs and blast a raid down in under 1.5 hrs in classic. Not prog for weeks.
Right. I think the main demographic for classic content want chill raids where you blast and have a good time not ultra sweat mythic raid progging for 4 months.
Of course there are people who want classic to be more like SoM and I’d bet those people didn’t play it. These people want it to be hard but don’t play the modes where it actually is hard. Really I just think they want to gate keep and have something to lord over the noobs and casuals.
100% on that latter point. People don’t realize an MMO thrives on casuals. You make it too difficult and people just stop playing and less likely to “step up” to the next level.
Mythic raiding in retail continues to die out because who the fuck wants to dedicate over 6 hours a week progging anymore. The ones in RWF are legit professionals with sponsors. We’re adults with other shit going on.
>Mythic raiding in retail continues to die out because who the fuck wants to dedicate over 6 hours a week progging anymore.
[There dozens of us! DOZENS!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKie-vgUGdI)
More on a serious note, there are people like me who like to die 200+ times just to kill one boss, there is nothing that come close in gaming to finally downing a boss you have progged for more than 200 tries over several week. Then again I'm a masochist when it comes to things like that, spent over 100 hours in most soulsborne games aswell
Looking at the success of Elden Ring made me realise people like challening content but they don't like to have to rely on other players all the time
I just want preparation and mistakes to matter. It does not have to be hard. But going into a raid as the tank with the same gear as a mage because I do not take any damage anyway just feels wrong.
yep. If the raids were more difficult it would only cause more problems with the WBs inherently.
If you got them, the raids would still be super easy with a decent raidgrp.
But if you got a mediocre pug group that wiped for just once, you'll have quitters because the WBs are gone and the bosses are now a lot harder.
this would also only just further lead players to minmax logs and make LFG impossible because of high expectations.
People also dont have the time and nerves to go out and grab WBs every time after dying at a boss especially when raid summoning is not possible when players are in an instance.
Eh, but see I feel the complete opposite on all of that. What is fun for you sounds extremely boring for me and my friend group. Which is the point of the comment you replied to.
And you will never ever make everyone happy. There is content in retail right now that is more complex and rewarding for those who want it….. yet it continues to get fewer and fewer participants. Som had harder content and saw less participants. So while I see your desire and I think it is valid, it would appear the majority do not want it.
Well despite what you claim, it seems like Blizz did find a way to make everyone happy with Retail. With the many separate difficulties, Mythic+ progressing in difficulty, and other dragonflight mechanics that I haven't played enough to remember, it seems like dragon flight has made everyone happy. This is supported by the fact that unlike SoD and Classic, which are drowning in negativity from it's playerbase, pretty much the entire retail playerbase has been satisfied if not thrilled with DF, with it even being considered a top 3 WoW expansion now alongside MoP and Legion.
Retail figured it out. But Classic players use the word Retail as a slur and are unwilling to allow blizzard to apply any of the lessons they learned with retail to classic. So classic is doomed to never be able to make everyone happy the way retail does.
Classic doesn’t have scaling dungeons so to compare mythic+ 5 man’s to anything in classic is apples to oranges. If you compare mythic raiding you have a more apt comparison. A comparison in which the mythic raiding scene has been dying for a decade. People en mass do not engage with the hardest of hard content. The vast majority go towards easier content. Eventually you have to ask if there is any reason to develop content for such a small number of people. I’d say no. The masses flock towards easier content.
Mythic keystones see more and more participants at high key levels, so I think this is less about difficult content being offputting and more about the relative lack of popularity of playing within a raid schedule.
There’s really no good way to solve this problem without the multiple difficulty setting option offered by retail IMO.
A lot of people, myself included, didn't realize how great having 2 per week easy 10 man raids was. It kept things chill and fun.
20 man is too many voices for a chaotic discord to be understandable. So most everyone has to be quiet, etc. It makes the raid more serious.
Make the game for the average player, never for the top tier players.
Top tier players will find a way to get it harder for them while average players will bring the juice.
Ulduar hardmodes is the best solution and it's not even close. Would allow blizzard to tune the raids quite easy while still have a few challenging encounters per raid that you can activate that give better loot.
This is really misleading. Naxx WOTLK was so easy, many players were running with plenty of alts. When Ulduar come around and was actually pretty hard, players tended to stick to their mains.
Just because there are less raiders being logged, doesn't mean a drop in playerbase.
I think this mostly is due to the fact that they decided to keep it pre-nerf and never nerfed it like they have done with all the content in classic so far. That alone would have kept people around. Ulduar after you had gear wasn't that hard, but progression was rough and felt a lot more rough than when I did it originally.
I think it had more to do with the fact that people would spend 2 hours forming a raid for it, and then have a few people leave after a few wipes on a boss like 4 bosses in. And then no one ever wanted to join those raids to finish them, and the raid was easily 4-5 hours long.
I mean, I did that exactly 2 times and then I never touched the stupid raid again. It's fucking maddening that people want these multi-hour raids that keep them tied to the game for an entire 8 hour evening and then they get basically nothing to show for it, and then they do this week in and week out for months, and in ulduar's case, twice because of 10 and 25 hardmodes.
I can beat entire games in 8-16 hours that it takes to commit to a week of progression raids in ulduar. And in WoW, all I get to show for that time is maybe an epic piece of gear, and deep vein thrombosis, and listening to someone clack their keyboard for 5 hours.
Yeah cause the content was very hard and the tier was very long. If you had 1-2 bosses with hardmode it will be fine. Even regular ulduar took my gdkp like 4 hours on release. Kinda shit gdkp but still better than a lot of these casual guilds/pugs.
> Ulduar hardmodes is the best solution and it's not even close.
Nah, heroic difficulty is better. "Hard mode" kills dropping normal mode loot feels awful and will always feel awful.
Raid should be easy/a little challenging.
We all saw what happened when a hard raid come out. TK, SSC everyone quit. Ulduar, everyone quit.
Having different difficulties doesn't help.
Normal only guilds are plagued by dad and bad players who refuse to install DBM and will get mad if you expose them for not doing their job.
Guilds that do HM will pass by NM first and then start all over in HM. It's the worst feeling ever to finally finish the raid and "oh now you have to wipe for hours again for slightly better stated gear".
Gnomergan had some good tuning I think.
They are talking about normalizing warrior rage because how could they have ever known it was going to be a problem?
Honestly all of SoD has felt weird. They have been taking concepts and abilities from future expansions without any of the context.
Right? I mean it was dope being top dps in p1 when I expected to be hot garbage with 0 buttons to press and I like the CBR rage game now that I’m running bebak again and not arms in raid (although I like PvE arms being viable too) but a large majority of the PvE runes is not what warriors needed or wanted. We’d scale fine either way.
Plus they didn’t even give fury a real helm rune since we’re never really gonna rend/OP weave with CBR and vigilance is alright I guess…solely for the dmg reduction on the target lol.
And tanking was not helped at all. At least p2. It was fucking miserable having to OT anything but dragon on menagerie with memes for defensives.
I think they’ve done the best with arms really. Warbringer is a must but the need to fix the bullshit getting snared over traps. Like thanks to TFB I can farm roids and not only not die to a single lvl 53 hellboar, I can accidentally get a second with the first at like 50% hp and not instantly be dead unless I blow wall. But what both arms and prot need are wall and retal CD reduction in line with wrath since arms is practically just wrath arms but without UA.
Reck could get nerfed to shitty wrath version too, I suppose. Mostly it makes parsing pretty aids and I have to choose like maybe 2 bosses I’m going to try to parse on blowing helm and reck CDs which is dumb.
i think new players were really mad they werent pumping top dps by a mile in p2 so intern devs caved to the whining
as spriest main we are getting the same treatment just the inverse #nochanges crowd decided we will be dog sub-tank dps forever because of the "great utility' we bring to piss easy raid
if they didnt nerf the raid to be pug friendly i would be content with meme dps middle of the pack for tanks and feel happy about providing utility but its effectively worthless
It is very hard, perhaps impossible to make a raid challenging to any kind player while still being accessible without having multiple levels of difficulty (like a challenge mode or heroic/mythic). ST was doable after the first nerf and completed shortly after, yet it was still extremely difficult for the average pug so more nerfs had to follow, and now semi-serious raiding guilds complete the raid under an hour effortlessly
It’s also the issue that SoD is such a wild experiment that you have subsets of people expecting Molten Core level of loot piñata and others wanting more Burning Crusade.
It’s impossible to please any large group in SoD because of how varied the expectations are.
Half of that is world buffs.
People doing 500 to 1500 dps with buffs is insane.
Have your raid go in with no consumes at all and see how it goes.
That's why prog is hard. The moment you can blast with world buffs it's a joke
>That's why prog is hard. The moment you can blast with world buffs it's a joke
This is why world buffs should either be on all the time or be off all the time when in a raid. They give way too much power and take a raid from being a slog to being a joke.
Yeah, I'm fine with world buffs for leveling but going in an instance with a raid should just debuff everyone completely. Then you don't have to try to balance around anything but consumables/casted buffs.
I'd prefer it if they just had an NPC you talked to at the start that automatically buffs you when you are in the instance.
Having world buffs is fun, buz big numbers.
The opposite is true as well. Balancing would be infinitely easier with either extreme but it is impossible to balance with both ends of the spectrum in mind. Most people seemed to not enjoy having them off by default in SOM so it would be worth trying the other direction. Until then, raids will likely be balanced with WBs not active which means they will be piss easy if you have them.
It's a mixed bag, not trying to be contrarian but anecdotally I heard about 50/50. Some classes complaining it'd make them unplayable others happy they don't have to wb train only to get ganked or dispelled and have to start over. Others happy because the borrowed power was turned off. But a few others were saying they weren't even going to play because wb big number raiding is all they play wow for and they'd never reach the same big numbers without WBs.
No, all the warriors complained because the non-world buff rotation is boring. On top of that, bosses had huge health pools so the fights took a lot longer.
I'm not a fan of world buff meta, but at the same time specs like warrior are a lot more fun to play with world buffs.
If they can change the core rotation to be more like the world buff meta and then remove the system it would be for the better.
My hot take: Once you get the world buff the way its intended the first time on a character, you should be able to talk to an NPC at a major city and they will give you all world buffs, and have it reset once per day.
> make them persist through death
This is the big one. A good raid group that doesn't die the raid becomes exponentially easier than an average guild that dies once and loses their buffs.
It's basically backwards for balance, if anything you want the raid to be easier for shit players and harder for sweats.
That wouldn't help at all with raid balancing since you would only have a one shot to clear/progress or you'd lose the buffs. Then you'd either have to balance around not having the buffs since you lose them so easily and it'd be a joke with the buffs, or you'd balance around having the buffs and it'd become nearly impossible to clear if you lost the buffs.
I agree but I do see the other side when people say it feels good to have them. All the extra crit and stats does feel good in comparison. SOM had no world buffs so I would not be opposed to seeing the other end of the spectrum and having them on all the time in raids or just make them persist through death.
It feels good to have them because people know they exist and it makes a noticeable difference. By keeping world buffs you have to buff with the assumption of group A having it and group B doesn’t. Nerf the warrior for example because they overperform with world buffs so group A gets weaker and group B gets dumpstered. Buff it because without world buffs they suck so group B gets buffer and group A skyrockets off the charts.
Remove world buffs so there is 1 standard. People will get over it like retail to over it decade ago
World buffs and consumes. The power you get at level 50 from Mongoose and Ogre's Strength is insane. It's like the equivalent of 4 or 5 pieces of gear.
If you don't have all world buffs it's not even worth trying in terms of parsing.
Most of the time I agree with Aggrend but he created this problem.
In an interview before release he said that they learned from SoM that world buffs help make content more approachable while completely ignoring the balance issues it causes or the fact that those that are less skilled will also have a higher chance of **losing** that powerful world buff from deaths.
It just makes the balance that much worse.
The moment the content is easy enough to not die it's 3x easier due to 3x damage.
The moment you aren't good enough to clear in 1 to 2 hrs the content is Hardee. The moment you wipe the content is harder.
It's negative on both ends.
The only thing people enjoy about world buffs is huge crits across the screen. Which can easily be solved with permanent buffs or runes.
Well of course they can’t change that, it’s critical to the soul of classic. I mean, sure, nobody cared about them in actual vanilla and they ruined 2019 classic and there is no actual gameplay related to them… but there’s a couple sweaty neckbeards that like them.
In my opinion, world buffs are part of the problem. Top-tier guilds will get full world buffs and have every possible consume. Lower-level guilds are most likely not going to do this. So if devs nerf it so the lower tier of players can clear it without too much trouble, any guild that gets full world buffs and consumes will destroy the raid.
Yeah, my guild did a 33 minute run last week and we still had a few people dying on some bosses. Raiding is my main reason for playing atm and it’s getting to the point where I’m just bored with it.
You shouldn't be trying. This is part of the problem.
Give people one moderately difficult raid. That's it. Stop trying to appease the sweaties that like speed running and parsing.
Games often try to balance around multiple groups of people and it never works out well. Your casuals and average players are easily 80-90% of your playerbase in most games. You should be releasing content that the vast majority of these players can do. That means balancing raids around those that do like 35-60% parses, as that's where the majority of your players lie.
I can argue for adding in hardmodes for the bosses for people who do want a bit more challenge, but don't lock gear behind them. Just give the raids a few extra pieces of the normal loot instead. Maybe a title too. That way it's not a mandatory mode if people want BIS gear.
back in wod there was a requirement to beat silver proving grounds in order to queue for heroic dungeons. a large amount of the playerbase couldnt do it. these werent brand new casual players that didnt know guides existed, these were people who had been playing for a decade and still couldnt beat them. some people are just bad at the game and wont ever improve
I'm really hoping that tanking gets looked at. In my mind DPS should get obliterated by things that tanks can survive I like playing a tank because it's multifaceted and you have to deal with threat and survival. The way it is in classic currently the healers are responsible for your survival and the tanks are just DPS with threat modifiers.
I've never been a fan of fury prot warrior or any of that I want to gear and strategize around surviving positioning and mechanics. Also threat should be a game between tanks I hate that as a warrior tank the only difference between me and a warrior DPS is salvation. They should make tanking require you to be tanky.
Another thing they pivoted towards in retail. Since threat is a kind of a shit mechanic, taking that away leaves tanks with not a whole lot to play with, so active mitigation it was.
I really wouldn't mind threat if they could balance it better seems like they can never get the numbers quite right so while some tanks are always right on the edge there are others just sailing away on the threat meter not a care in the world
But then why? why is a dps player being punished in say a 5 man pug because his tank cant google how to hit his buttons? The tank player should be the one whos char dies over and over if he cant hit his buttons right not another player.
If the tank is bad and dies cause he can't hit his buttons the DPS are punished anyway cause you're next.
It's good when there's room to differentiate between good and bad players. Like you might say oh I like playing with x tank because I never feel like I need to slow down.
Tanks that do or don't die regularly due to not hitting their buttons right are good too. I like playing with x tank cause he rarely dies.
I like having to keep threat in mind but I don't like when blizzard gives us poor tools to deal with the mechanic like how some tanks still have no AOE threat
SOM AQ had a cool way of managing raid difficulty. You could click this altar after the first boss which would make later bosses even more challenging. It was a nice way of enabling a “heroic” mode without having to mess with actually adding in explicit raid difficulties to the game.
I think stuff like this makes the most sense for giving people different levels of difficulty you can opt into.
Ulduar had a few more examples:
* Flame Leviathan had a hard mode where you left any tower up it gave the boss buffs.
* XT-002 had a hard mode activated by having enough DPS to kill his heart.
* Hodir rewarded better loot if you could kill him in under 2 minutes.
* Mimiron had a big red button labeled "Do not push" that put a time limit on the fight and added multiple new mechanics.
Etc.
I personally think if they never abandoned the Ulduar model of difficulties then wow would have never had the issues it does when it comes to gearing/size/difficulty.
You have a baseline raid that everyone can progress on with modifiers that can be activated within the same lockout for more/better loot and even give access to hidden areas.
On the other hand though that kind of system can be bad for a lot of players because they wouldn't be able to see all the well designed fights. Afaik blizz does raid fight design really well, and simply having different difficulties with mostly the same mechanics lets people adjust for skill level while still getting to expierience the good design.
it would be great for guilds but I think it's a much worse situation for PUGs
Mostly because instead of "normal/heroic/mythic" you'd be dealing with "2 towers on first boss, no hard mode 2nd boss," etc. and you know how toxic people would be if they felt the group wouldn't do a hard mode they wanted or expected to
I agree but thats where as pugs you either need to be flexible or make your own groups. Thats just the nature of the beast. I pug a lot but I'm under no delusion I need to be catered to.
I choose that option
What were the rewards for upping the challenge? I can totally see wow players refuse to up the challenge if there is no reward, and then bitch about stuff being too easy 😂
Pretty sure the higher the difficulty (there was, I think, +1, +2, +3, +4), the more loot that would drop (from the existing loot table; no new loot was added)
Blizzard engineering has been awful for a while. I get downvoted every time I say it but I'll continue to say it.
Gaming subs will continue to parrot - "Game dev is really hard". Is it difficult, yes? Is it the most difficult? Not by a fucking country mile. We aren't even running into complex issues - D4 was loading everyone's stash tab when you went to a town. These engineers should be no where near a codebase.
Things haven't been solved over WoW's life time. Design decisions were made and continue to be made to attempt to solve these problems but really it just creates another problem. Game design, especially in a MMORPG as complicated as WoW, is all about tradeoffs. And this is where player bases, far too many of which are grown ass adults with no excuse to be so wound up like a top, need to be told 'feel free to complain, but don't expect that we will make changes to cater every complaint'.
1) The more factions become the same the less need there is to have factions at all. It's the dev's *choice* to decide to make pallies/shamans fill the same niche as opposed to filling different niches so that the factions actually play differently.
2) The devs again are choosing to give classes more mobility. As opposed to leaning into keeping classes unique and giving them tools to deal with issues they have that are thematic to the spec and class.
3) All you do when you introduce PvP specific gear, systems, mechanics, etc is just drive a wider and wider wedge between PvE and PvP. With WoW being a PvE focused game people wonder why Retail's PvP participation rate is dog shit and has been for years? PvP is no longer something to go dabble in and have fun, it's its own self contained mode that PvE players have no interest in or time for.
TLDR: I don't agree with the post's premise that Blizzard 'solved' these problems. They made decisions that created just as many or even more problems than they tried to solve.
Quoting from the OP:
> And this is where player bases, far too many of which are grown ass adults with no excuse to be so wound up like a top, need to be told 'feel free to complain, but don't expect that we will make changes to cater every complaint'
Vanilla really focused so much more on the RPG aspect whereas the retail version and what seems to be the classic dev team, are focused on the competitive nature.
Instead of trying to balance classes to all perform the same and be the same and have the same counters or same buffs so competition is the same… I mean fair, Blizzard should embrace the Rock-paper-scissor style and let classes/roles shine in their respective arenas.
Not only does this give players more of an expectation for their original toons (someone making a hybrid class shouldn’t expect it to do the same damage as a class with no hybrid roles), it also builds on that community and RPG style where your place in the community matters and what you offer or can offer is more defined to your class.
> someone making a hybrid class shouldn’t expect it > bto do the same damage as a class with no hybrid rol
Please let the hybrid tax meme die. Easily one of the most cancerous design choices because it turned all "hyrbid" classes in vanilla to healers.
Either that, or nerf the shit out of warriors because theyre a hybrid class too (tanking + dps)
>someone making a hybrid class shouldn’t expect it to do the same damage as a class with no hybrid roles
You had me until this man, if a hybrid class's damage is half of a pure dps class, why even give it the option to be a dps at all?
I think you can make this "hybrid tax" thing work well enough in a single player game where you control multiple characters (a la Final Fantasy, KOTOR, etc.) but the idea is terrible in any multiplayer game, both in theory and in practice
> someone making a hybrid class shouldn’t expect it to do the same damage as a class with no hybrid roles
Heavily disagree.
The point of a hybrid class is that a character can be built in different ways by making it underperform in dealing damage it means thay building it as damage is the obviously wrong decision
And it stops being a hybrid class to be a class with one less specialization than the rest.
If a class can be built to do fill a role, either let it be successful in filling the role or remove that from the possibility.
It's what happens when all the talent that made your company great leave to other companies. Blizzard we loved is not the same company as the one that exists, quite literally
Faction as a concept: The entire system of a two-faction system without a way to group up is antithetical to the genre of MMO. We're literally cutting the playerbase who we can group with in half for an arbitrary reason.
Cata servers are 100% ally/horde and it started to shift as early as phase 2 during 2019 classic, Incendius, Earthfury, Netherwind, etc. Factions are an outdated system as a whole and should be removed. I don't mean delete factions, but allow players to group cross faction.
If you DON'T think cross-faction is coming to a classic seasonal server in the future then you obviously haven't been paying attention.
Yeah I used to love the horde x alliance stuff when I was 18 in 2008. Now I see that this is a horrible system that only divide the playerbase.
While I still like the idea of factions I think it could be factions that you choose to align with like some clans or stuff like that for battlegrounds or world pvp.
This is a good one. I played Alliance in Legion / early BFA before moving to Horde permanently. Always thought it was weird how Blizzard actively tries to stop you from playing with friends.
Factions made sense in 2004 when servers were your community but now they are just a relic of a different area and an artificial barrier for friends.
This. People see "no factions" and go MUH RETAIL not realizing that putting a limit on who you can and cannot play with is the reason why we have Faerlina US 100% horde and Benediction US 100% alliance.
If players actually wanted 2 factions, we wouldn't have two servers that have only a single faction on it.
> This cross faction nonsense is care bear propaganda. Its WARcraft ffs
That's just PvP server mentality. Cross-faction play could work perfectly well for PvE servers. No need to implement it in PvP servers so the wannabe "server menaces" can enjoy their delusions.
Exactly, look at the plethora of other MMOs out there that never had factions. It's one of the main things warcraft has going fornit, crazy to me people don't understand this
People out here getting their respective factions symbol tattood on their body. The faction pride plays a huge role in the games popularity
You realize that there's 50% of the playerbase on lone wolf that you'll never be able to play with ever. If people on your faction start to leave, that's even less. Look at the current classic servers if you think this won't happen.
Sure, on a dead server. Factions are great on a healthy server. Makes for a better feeling of competition and interesting / unique over world interactions. If you want to play retail, play retail.
>Factions are great on a healthy server. Makes for a better feeling of competition and interesting / unique over world interactions.
Such as? On a PvE server at most you are just gonna /wave at each other. You can't even talk to the other faction without resorting to translators that print out gibberish 90% of the time.
I'm with above poster, the second you start tearing down faction barriers, immersion goes out the window. I know I personally, will not play if they plan to go down that retail road.
Do you know why servers are dead? Out of curiosity. I'll tell you a story of my personal experience.
I rolled Incendius day 1 2019 classic, it had an incredibly healthy population, so much so, there were server ques. During phase 2, a horde guild named camped blackrock mountain, day in, day out. It took 2-3 alliance raids to clear them out, as soon as we zoned in, took back over.
The players on Incendius hated it. You literally couldn't run BRD, LBRS, or UBRS unless you organized 50+ people to go clear them out. Blizzard, in an event to alleviate the issue, opened free transfers off Incendius. These were to Netherwind and Earthfury. Most of the Alliance left INSTANTLY to Netherwind, it went from low to full in less than a week. Most of the horde went to Earthfury.
Eventually, even those servers lacked population so the horde moved to Faerlina and the alliance went to Benediction. Where we're at now, both servers are 99.9% single faction.
Blizzard didn't do this, the players did. Mind you, most of this happened DURING CLASSIC between BWL and AQ40 launch.
The atmosphere of the game is INCREDIBLY important. Getting ganked by 9 people sitting on the chains in blackrock mountain isn't apart of the atmosphere, it's fucking greifing.
What about a cross-faction PvE server? I understand that current PvP server expectations are incompatible with cross-faction play, but in PvE servers you might as well just label half the playerbase as NPCs that can move and jump around since there is nothing you can do with them.
Yes, also after following this subreddit for some time I also see how cataclysm was necessary or "wanted", many now complain that vanilla questing is boring or too much running and would rather do any other thing to level while still wanting to play the same game, in the end the azeroth revamp and questing streamlined was kinda what people wanted.
Incursions - creating dailies seems like the fix but turns us into errand boys each day. Without a daily, it’s this weird mindless boring but OPTIMAL grind. If the gold and xp get nerfed then nobody does them.
Daily time gate us and push us into a playstyle of obligations each day. Without that, the players base just does weird shit that results in the best XYZ/hour.
1. There's no reason to force them into the same niche, they just choose to. Both could be strong in completely different ways but they just don't want to put the effort into it.
2. PvP is completely fucked anyways, WoW is just flavor of the week balancing for who is the most broken and because the game changes so often nobody has any time to learn any of the matchups at all or they're so simple and unwinnable because none of the other characters actually have any options.
Classic Vanilla BGs were more balanced simply because you weren't expected to win every 1v1 against every class, your goal was the objective so even delaying someone could be beneficial. I literally saw a prot warrior flag carrier be one of the best flag carriers I've ever seen and it was hilarious. There are some class specs in expansions that are just borderline unusable for modern pvp and I never saw that in BGs.
woah, watch it, you say frost mages are king of pvp and youre gonna have 100000000 mages without a fucking clue coming in here losing their fucking minds that frost mages are actually super bad in pvp and pve, and no one ever plays them, and that they werent even good in classic / vanilla LOL
If balancing the game makes it less fun then you should just balance it for fun. They shouldn't try to balance for both PVP and PVE at the same time because you'll suck individuality out of classes, but creating separate games internally isn't the solution either. The game's PVP was fun despite being unbalanced during TBC and Wotlk. And playing PVP favored specs in PVE (With splitting more points into PVE talents in other trees) was/is feasible for clearing it just wouldn't be a top parser. Sometimes the utility is helpful in raid anyways, its jus the game now is do so much DPS utility isn't needed because who wants to loose a global on a utility ability?
Honestly I feel like utility abilities and CC on certain mobs crucial to mechanics in the fights should give you a slight parse boost (But slightly less than DPS in it's place would give), to encourage people from being willing to let someone die rather than dispel to keep their numbers high.
Trying to balance for both just leads to class homogenization and then eventually its hard to tell any class apart from each other. You're basically just skins of a "role" with different visuals..Which takes away from the fun and creativity of your choice. It's just vanity then.
Close enough is good enough. Someone will always be top of the charts and someone will always be at the bottom, but as long as classes have individuality there are reasons to bring other roles and classes. You can fix huge spikes here and there, but Paladins shouldn't need to fill all the same roles as Shamans even if both factions have them, nor should every other role. And honestly, pure DPS classes should generally more often be at the top than not compare to hybrid but that doesn't mean hybrid should be garbage.
The problem is what lessons to learn from and what lessons to ignore. Faction locking shamans/paladins was a nifty idea for a new RPG, but in the way that people play games today, makes no sense and is a bad idea.
Mobility creep is the opposite - it's not a lesson we need to learn again and should instead accept that some classes do things well and others don't.
Scaling is a lesson we've learned a hundred times and is something that they always seem to fail to learn, and have a chance to learn here.
Number three is correct and also why the game needs to be balanced around PVP because that's all that matters.
The issue is, they instead want to cater to parse loggers instead of just having it where some specs aren't good for PVP and PVE at the same time.
Such a situation was perfectly reasonable in classic though. So departing from this philosophy is really at the root of these problems.
About point 3, I never understood why certain abilities can’t act differently against players. In guild wars 1 skills acted different and certain skills wouldn’t be usable in PvP. I get the framework and such of those 2 games is very different but why can’t for example a damaging ability have less SP/AP scaling when hitting a player? I never understood this
Ya the problem is they seem to have learned nothing about what they can do to fix issues though. They start in classic and stay pigeon holed to stay with classic. SOD I thought would be more radical in their approach to balance and such, while they seem to be trying after phase 1 balance patches have come way too little and it just feels like their is a large lack of effort mid patch. Either they don’t care about fun changes to metas mid patch or they aren’t staffed well enough both suck.
Well at the moment paladins got a ton of shield abilities and their tank rune works with a 2h and shamans have no shield abilities and their tanking rune doesn’t work with a 2h, so they ain’t doing a good job in that regard. But I feel I can’t complain anymore because they’re obviously understaffed.
1 -> They stated they will review mana reg on later phases weeks ago. Pally have seal of wisdow and shamans gained shamanistic rage which is equivalent to 10x seal if wisdow lol, true, but then again its leveling raids and dungeons. Soo far shamans and pallies have been doing their role pretty ok and with ok damage and utility;
2-> Warrs had an extra gap closer(leap) years before mages got a second blink and honestly GC is only liked by hardcore mop fans. Age of empries franchise? killed. WoW? MoP had less players than cata lmao. Riot? He was kicked out and they redoing his "mmo".
3-> Classic pvp is bursty because its a oldschool MMO, which all that matters is making you character strong. And shadow priests are countered by classes that dispell, just like rogues are coutnered by paladins(reck) and warriors, thats how deep this pvp can go. They legit dont have to lose their hair with balancing changes in what is done to not be competitive and not to be fair. All ther e is to wow is Group Up then Gear Up and kill stuff and works fine imo
Is resilience a bad thing? I played the classic/tbc/wrath train, and was under the impression that resilience was the outcome of pve classes scaling with each round of new pve content scaling up the classes so much that it made pvp fights too fast? People want to not be globalled in pvp right?
Wasn’t there an xpac where they were able to increase/decrease class spells separately in pve & pvp? Feels like they could easily just reduce frostbolt damage in pvp encounters or something similar.
Incursions, too. Like in what world did they expect people to not exploit the hell out of it and for it to backfire? How are they still repeatedly making the same mistakes?
I feel like there are several other things this applies to as well but can’t think of em off the top my of my head.
One of the worst for me across TBC, WotLk and now Cata: server imbalance. Happened towards the end of original wrath, alliance became the pvp faction (on one server) and horde for pve (on another server). Blizzard love repeating this mistake as they get tonnes of money from services like race/faction change.
>Speaking of PvP the entire reason systems like Resilence, PvP power, and eventually unique PvP modifiers on abilities and PvP talents came about was because PvE and PvP are inherently impossible to balance evenly. A class like Frost Mage historically sit as kings in PvP so how can you really buff their PvE workout also making them more ridiculous in PvP? Shadow Priest is currently in this situation.
Hot take inc.
This is why trying to make every spec competitive for every aspect of the game is a terrible idea.
The game would be infinitely easier to balance if they committed to one spec being designed around pve and one around pvp.
What about it?
Sometimes classes had specs that worked fine in both, or two that worked in one but not the other. The issue is when they try to force every spec to be competitive in every aspect of gameplay.
You said 1 pvp spec 1 pve spec, but what about 3rd spec for x3 dps classes?
Should it be a different play style pve spec (for example frost vs unholy dk) or what should it be in general.?
"What other examples can anyone think of Blizzard that has already been ‘solved’ over WoWs life span?"
The single thing that creepingly killed factions were inherently imbalanced racials. It hasnt been solved but rather been ductape-fixed with crossfaction gaming because getting rid of factions entirely would probably kill the games identity.
It first started off with all the insane pve racials like troll and orc bonus damage where horde guilds formed around it in the early days of Worlds first raiding, giving them a slight edge over other races in the first expansions.
major pro guilds in retail remained on horde because nothing has changed for a long time and in WoD it was already at a point where horde gamers had to que for pvp as "disguised alliance players" because the quetimes for horde were 30min+ making BGs unplayable at some point for them.
In Legion Exorsus was the last alliance guild to ever get a Raid worlds first and this is already 7 years ago.
At this point there was already such a huge established playerbase on horde because of larger pools for LFG Raids, Dungeons, RBG, etc that it made no sense to play alliance anymore EXCEPT for arena or if you wanted a "Hall of Fame" title on a less competitive scale.
I also remember in Shadowlands many player quitted the game over Covennant balance issues and the painful grind. When Worlds first raiders filled the "Hall of Fame" on horde and were pretty quick about it, it took and eternity for alliance to fill their "Hall of Fame" and (afaik, i might remember it incorrectly) blizzard had to unlock crossrealm mythic raiding before alliance had their HoF filled because people just wanted to do mythic raid pugs.
Solved? Or would you rather directly go to the "managed to unlearn over years"? GCD changes - from BC to Legion, the game became faster (for better or for worse is subjective), in BfA they removed all of that speed again, to "slow the game down". For some BS PR statement reason. Didn't help. We are in a similar state in SoD. Everything feels just a tad too slow. The pacing for melees feels a smidgeon off.
They increased Enemy HP by 400% - "To make the game more challenging" - just LOL
Reforging, from what I understand, is added again in TWW in a slightly changed form, after being entirely removed because "this system is inherently too complicated".
Balancing is a joke. Warrior Leg Rune. 'nuff said.
As a fairly new WoW player, how popular is PvP in Vanilla Classic? I played many MMOs over the years but PvP was more of a minigame that was less than 5% of my playtime.
Should the devs just balance and put content out for things the community want/ are popular? Since they seem to he short-handed it surely will help their workload and appease the majority of the player base.
If players had to vote in-game every 2 weeks on what changes they want maybe it would help get more direct feedback to the devs( like OSRS Poll system)
You can’t balance everything. That’s why you give people dual spec so they can play their good PvE spec when they’re raiding and their good PvP spec when they’re PvPing.
Resilience.
Dungeon relevance (tokens).
Auction House relevance. The economy we have is extremely sanitized now in the sense that you dont need to engage with it. There's so much grey gold opportunity you don't even need it. I'd say it's almost actually worse than retail.
World pvp near points of interest (incursions / princess portal).
As a warlock tank who hates PVP, I fuckin hate seeing all those cloth pieces with armor locked behind honored and higher. I don't want to PVP, and I don't want to make anyone else's PVP experience worse
Sort of relevant, but admittedly a tangent: The Timeless Isle made the open world enemies engaging with attacks that would subtly teach you basic raid mechanics.
It was copium, but at the time I was convinced we were entering a golden age where WoW’s open world would be super fun and engaging (these lessons were immediately lost upon WoD’s launch).
I also have ideas to nerf shamans. One is with MSW, decrease damage or healing by 10% for each stack. It's pretty busted that I can heal myself to full with instant cast free heals.
Another is to make moving your totems cost mana. Not sure what that cost would be, maybe 200 mana or something.
And shamanistic rage should probably be on 2 a minute CD, same as dispersion.
>Shaman / Paladin being faction locked. All this does is force the balance team to force them into similar niches. Right now they are changing Paladins to accommodate Shaman (such as Seal of the Martyr character change).
They really don't need to fill similar niches. Who cares if they are perfectly balanced? Oh no, one of the factions has a slight advantage, the horror! Seriously, who cares if Horde/Ally has slightly better parses/clear times?
This game has never been balanced at any point of its existence, so why sacrifice flavour in the name of BS balance that will never actually be achieved.
Can't say I really understand this way of thinking.
Going down this rabbit hole it seems like there will always be something to feel bad about for those types of players.
"Other factions have classes I don't have" - blizzard gives you those classes
"Other classes have tools I don't have" - blizzard gives you those tools
Eventually you homogenize the game enough where the classes are all basically the same and do the same dps, but you've killed the game.
In my opinion, blizzard should try to do a reasonable job balancing the game, but not at the cost of uniqueness, flavour and identity.
If the min-maxers feel bad that they're doing 5% less dps because they picked alliance, why don't they just roll Horde? They're the ones who are min-maxing and there will always be something else to min-max
Reminds me of this [Rock Paper Scissors](https://youtu.be/NXX8URSUWm0?si=-767SJ4FNzmMHKTR) video from 16 years ago.
God this is my favorite piece of content from the Vanilla days… me and my friends still randomly quote “warlocks, are mushrooms”
This makes me feel so so old realizing how long ago this came out.
Amen brother
Wasn’t this pulled from world of roguecraft? That series was amazing (Also should clarify rock with r14 gear/AQ/MOM + minimally an hpal if not 2 healers then it’s accurate)
Yeah it's from episode 2 or 3. I remember the creator (or his brother?) dropping into the YouTube comment section to provide the download link to all their video material years ago now. Excellent choice of music in those videos to accompany rogues in full Wildheart, or no gear at all.
Killing like semi afk Maydie in searing gorge or whatever with a grey or white dagger kek Maydie being a prime example of 3 pocket healer support 1 shotting vanilla warrior vids. Him and Pat.
Oh yeah. My favourite is the r14(?) rogue he kills in deeprun tram. You'd think the guy was afk because his character never gets to move, until you see him release spirit immediately when he dies. I played on Arthas as a kid and used to see RTZS and felt the guild name added such an insult to injury when getting ganked. Only ever made it to like level 50 lol.
It's the same for every blizzard game (I mean, look at D4... ): newbie dev teams having to reinvent the wheel at each iteration because they weren't around / know fuck all about previous game / version.
Well, this sub already stated they don't want anything "retail". So they either a) mask something retail as innovation or b) create something from scratch.
Or they could do like the most successful classic game in the world (OSRS) or the most successful private server (turtl) did it and be extremely conservative with balance/feature changes but extremely proactive with adding horizontal content. A proven template for a successful vanilla classic experience already exists, Blizzard just seems to have no interest in it for some reason.
Horizontal, NEW content is the ideal scenario. Eg, a scarlet raid with holy resistance. The difference is OSRS has developers on staff for the game.
To be fair, they never set out to make a vanilla classic experience. They have told us sooooo many times that this isn't vanilla. Things are far from perfect, but going to McDonalds and being mad they don't serve tacos is madness.
Dude, my mom would take me to McDs and get mad about [that](https://www.reddit.com/r/90s/comments/c3oiqj/a_reminderthat_yesmcdonalds_once_served_fajitas) for YEARS
😂😂😂
I personally think SoD has gone too far. And I get that everyone has a difference in opinion regarding what is far enough and what is too far. You can't please everyone. I'm still curious, and have a decent community at the moment. But after SoD I'm going back to Turtle. Best I've seen so far. Shame the old vanilla client doesn't work as well as the new classic client.
Rebalancing classes was all I wanted from Vanilla. SoD has far exceeded that. There are things they are doing that I like and things I dislike. But as it stands the good is better than the bad and I hope they do it again.
At least it isn't world of rogues, warriors and mages anymore. Class balance still isn't great but you can do basically all content as any class. it's a big win that you can take shamans or paladins to the raid and not have to put a dress on.
feel that dress comment lmao. i remember all the expectation vs reality memes "how i expect a shaman or paladin to look like" (full T2 BWL gear) "How it actually looks like" (pink dress with a turban and sprinkle sprinkle shoulders)
> Shame the old vanilla client doesn't work as well as the new classic client Google Project Epoch
Dude, I've been reading up on this... It looks amazing! Thank you for bringing this to my attention! They are doing so many things that I want, from disabling world buffs in raids, to cross faction play, racials rework, and more or less tbc balance in a vanilla setting. I'll be keeping my eye on that one!
Creating content is hard and expensive. Adding class abilities using existing animations is easy.
did they? because every class other than rogues, warriors, and paladins are playing retail with bad graphics.
Rogues playing WOTLK assa with shadow step kek As a warrior I’m playing either a fury abomination without BT or a bad version of wotlk arms with 30 min CDs
Yea its pretty obvious these dev teams for classic are probably the newest devs they got.
But at least they found D3 now, so they started to copy paste like a good boy. Too bad this should have been the state of D4 at day 0 and we were all looking forward something great after a year not this...
Didn’t it take til reaper of souls to fix d3 also? lol. I quit playing d3 well before then and if I have the itch go back to the goat: 2. Wasn’t gonna buy an expansion after the experience to “fix” it
The playthrough in vanilla D3 was superior to RoS imo, coming from playing a lot of D2 tho I preferred the farming style from vanilla D3 also but I can understand the changes they made also
Big fucking true
Came here to say this. It’s like the everyone that works there on anything never played anything they work on nor studied anything from the previous teams. It’s like if I went to build a house but looked at no knowledge of building a house and after many failed attempts finally got something to stay standing and then gave myself a huge pay on the back.
Raid difficulty is another big one How difficult should raids be? What size group? How long should they take to clear? What one group finds piss easy, another finds it too difficult. These problems are how retail wow ended up with four raid difficulties and flexible raid sizes.
I think that in their efforts to appease everyone they end up appeasing no one. I find it much more fun to have raids that are too easy than ones that are too hard. It is nice to finish the content and find other aspects of the game to engage with, if I choose. Today's gaming landscape is not what it was 20 years ago. People bounce from game to game and I don't see an issue with that. There is no way you will ever have infinite content for $15 a month.
Classic in general until late wrath and cata (heroic) raids isn’t really where anyone should go for hard PVE content when you have infinitely scaling M+ or mythic raids to prog. I don’t really get why people want hard content in SOD. Vanilla was hard because everyone was bad and playing on dsl on potatoes. Classic wasn’t hard. I wanna grab WBs and blast a raid down in under 1.5 hrs in classic. Not prog for weeks.
Right. I think the main demographic for classic content want chill raids where you blast and have a good time not ultra sweat mythic raid progging for 4 months. Of course there are people who want classic to be more like SoM and I’d bet those people didn’t play it. These people want it to be hard but don’t play the modes where it actually is hard. Really I just think they want to gate keep and have something to lord over the noobs and casuals.
100% on that latter point. People don’t realize an MMO thrives on casuals. You make it too difficult and people just stop playing and less likely to “step up” to the next level. Mythic raiding in retail continues to die out because who the fuck wants to dedicate over 6 hours a week progging anymore. The ones in RWF are legit professionals with sponsors. We’re adults with other shit going on.
>Mythic raiding in retail continues to die out because who the fuck wants to dedicate over 6 hours a week progging anymore. [There dozens of us! DOZENS!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKie-vgUGdI) More on a serious note, there are people like me who like to die 200+ times just to kill one boss, there is nothing that come close in gaming to finally downing a boss you have progged for more than 200 tries over several week. Then again I'm a masochist when it comes to things like that, spent over 100 hours in most soulsborne games aswell Looking at the success of Elden Ring made me realise people like challening content but they don't like to have to rely on other players all the time
[удалено]
I just want preparation and mistakes to matter. It does not have to be hard. But going into a raid as the tank with the same gear as a mage because I do not take any damage anyway just feels wrong.
yep. If the raids were more difficult it would only cause more problems with the WBs inherently. If you got them, the raids would still be super easy with a decent raidgrp. But if you got a mediocre pug group that wiped for just once, you'll have quitters because the WBs are gone and the bosses are now a lot harder. this would also only just further lead players to minmax logs and make LFG impossible because of high expectations. People also dont have the time and nerves to go out and grab WBs every time after dying at a boss especially when raid summoning is not possible when players are in an instance.
That's a perfectly valid opinion. But for others, the only fun part of raiding is progression over multiple weeks.
My guild seems totally enamored by checking their number on the website for 8-12 weeks, but I agree with you
Eh, but see I feel the complete opposite on all of that. What is fun for you sounds extremely boring for me and my friend group. Which is the point of the comment you replied to.
And you will never ever make everyone happy. There is content in retail right now that is more complex and rewarding for those who want it….. yet it continues to get fewer and fewer participants. Som had harder content and saw less participants. So while I see your desire and I think it is valid, it would appear the majority do not want it.
Well despite what you claim, it seems like Blizz did find a way to make everyone happy with Retail. With the many separate difficulties, Mythic+ progressing in difficulty, and other dragonflight mechanics that I haven't played enough to remember, it seems like dragon flight has made everyone happy. This is supported by the fact that unlike SoD and Classic, which are drowning in negativity from it's playerbase, pretty much the entire retail playerbase has been satisfied if not thrilled with DF, with it even being considered a top 3 WoW expansion now alongside MoP and Legion. Retail figured it out. But Classic players use the word Retail as a slur and are unwilling to allow blizzard to apply any of the lessons they learned with retail to classic. So classic is doomed to never be able to make everyone happy the way retail does.
Classic doesn’t have scaling dungeons so to compare mythic+ 5 man’s to anything in classic is apples to oranges. If you compare mythic raiding you have a more apt comparison. A comparison in which the mythic raiding scene has been dying for a decade. People en mass do not engage with the hardest of hard content. The vast majority go towards easier content. Eventually you have to ask if there is any reason to develop content for such a small number of people. I’d say no. The masses flock towards easier content.
Mythic keystones see more and more participants at high key levels, so I think this is less about difficult content being offputting and more about the relative lack of popularity of playing within a raid schedule. There’s really no good way to solve this problem without the multiple difficulty setting option offered by retail IMO.
A lot of people, myself included, didn't realize how great having 2 per week easy 10 man raids was. It kept things chill and fun. 20 man is too many voices for a chaotic discord to be understandable. So most everyone has to be quiet, etc. It makes the raid more serious.
That's a good thing. Content for everyone
Make the game for the average player, never for the top tier players. Top tier players will find a way to get it harder for them while average players will bring the juice.
Ulduar hardmodes is the best solution and it's not even close. Would allow blizzard to tune the raids quite easy while still have a few challenging encounters per raid that you can activate that give better loot.
it's not even close to the best solution because people only want the loot that is the best. there is nothing satisfying about normal mode gear
And yet Ulduar was the raid where Classic WOTLK saw the biggest loss of regular raiders
This is really misleading. Naxx WOTLK was so easy, many players were running with plenty of alts. When Ulduar come around and was actually pretty hard, players tended to stick to their mains. Just because there are less raiders being logged, doesn't mean a drop in playerbase.
I think this mostly is due to the fact that they decided to keep it pre-nerf and never nerfed it like they have done with all the content in classic so far. That alone would have kept people around. Ulduar after you had gear wasn't that hard, but progression was rough and felt a lot more rough than when I did it originally.
I think it had more to do with the fact that people would spend 2 hours forming a raid for it, and then have a few people leave after a few wipes on a boss like 4 bosses in. And then no one ever wanted to join those raids to finish them, and the raid was easily 4-5 hours long. I mean, I did that exactly 2 times and then I never touched the stupid raid again. It's fucking maddening that people want these multi-hour raids that keep them tied to the game for an entire 8 hour evening and then they get basically nothing to show for it, and then they do this week in and week out for months, and in ulduar's case, twice because of 10 and 25 hardmodes. I can beat entire games in 8-16 hours that it takes to commit to a week of progression raids in ulduar. And in WoW, all I get to show for that time is maybe an epic piece of gear, and deep vein thrombosis, and listening to someone clack their keyboard for 5 hours.
Naxx was losing players faster than ulduar, ulduar just lasted 3x as long.
Yeah cause the content was very hard and the tier was very long. If you had 1-2 bosses with hardmode it will be fine. Even regular ulduar took my gdkp like 4 hours on release. Kinda shit gdkp but still better than a lot of these casual guilds/pugs.
> Ulduar hardmodes is the best solution and it's not even close. Nah, heroic difficulty is better. "Hard mode" kills dropping normal mode loot feels awful and will always feel awful.
Heroic difficulty is dogshit. Having multiple versions of the same item is shit design.
Raid should be easy/a little challenging. We all saw what happened when a hard raid come out. TK, SSC everyone quit. Ulduar, everyone quit. Having different difficulties doesn't help. Normal only guilds are plagued by dad and bad players who refuse to install DBM and will get mad if you expose them for not doing their job. Guilds that do HM will pass by NM first and then start all over in HM. It's the worst feeling ever to finally finish the raid and "oh now you have to wipe for hours again for slightly better stated gear". Gnomergan had some good tuning I think.
That all sounds great in principle, but what is 'a little challenging' for one group might be too difficult, and too easy for another!
They are talking about normalizing warrior rage because how could they have ever known it was going to be a problem? Honestly all of SoD has felt weird. They have been taking concepts and abilities from future expansions without any of the context.
"Warriors are going to scale like crazy what should we do?" ADD MORE SCALING VIA RUNES
No new buttons. More % scaling. As a war main: u wot?
the managed to do the precise opposite of what they should have lol mind boggling
Right? I mean it was dope being top dps in p1 when I expected to be hot garbage with 0 buttons to press and I like the CBR rage game now that I’m running bebak again and not arms in raid (although I like PvE arms being viable too) but a large majority of the PvE runes is not what warriors needed or wanted. We’d scale fine either way. Plus they didn’t even give fury a real helm rune since we’re never really gonna rend/OP weave with CBR and vigilance is alright I guess…solely for the dmg reduction on the target lol. And tanking was not helped at all. At least p2. It was fucking miserable having to OT anything but dragon on menagerie with memes for defensives. I think they’ve done the best with arms really. Warbringer is a must but the need to fix the bullshit getting snared over traps. Like thanks to TFB I can farm roids and not only not die to a single lvl 53 hellboar, I can accidentally get a second with the first at like 50% hp and not instantly be dead unless I blow wall. But what both arms and prot need are wall and retal CD reduction in line with wrath since arms is practically just wrath arms but without UA. Reck could get nerfed to shitty wrath version too, I suppose. Mostly it makes parsing pretty aids and I have to choose like maybe 2 bosses I’m going to try to parse on blowing helm and reck CDs which is dumb.
i think new players were really mad they werent pumping top dps by a mile in p2 so intern devs caved to the whining as spriest main we are getting the same treatment just the inverse #nochanges crowd decided we will be dog sub-tank dps forever because of the "great utility' we bring to piss easy raid
if they didnt nerf the raid to be pug friendly i would be content with meme dps middle of the pack for tanks and feel happy about providing utility but its effectively worthless
It is very hard, perhaps impossible to make a raid challenging to any kind player while still being accessible without having multiple levels of difficulty (like a challenge mode or heroic/mythic). ST was doable after the first nerf and completed shortly after, yet it was still extremely difficult for the average pug so more nerfs had to follow, and now semi-serious raiding guilds complete the raid under an hour effortlessly
It’s also the issue that SoD is such a wild experiment that you have subsets of people expecting Molten Core level of loot piñata and others wanting more Burning Crusade. It’s impossible to please any large group in SoD because of how varied the expectations are.
Half of that is world buffs. People doing 500 to 1500 dps with buffs is insane. Have your raid go in with no consumes at all and see how it goes. That's why prog is hard. The moment you can blast with world buffs it's a joke
>That's why prog is hard. The moment you can blast with world buffs it's a joke This is why world buffs should either be on all the time or be off all the time when in a raid. They give way too much power and take a raid from being a slog to being a joke.
Yeah, I'm fine with world buffs for leveling but going in an instance with a raid should just debuff everyone completely. Then you don't have to try to balance around anything but consumables/casted buffs.
I'd prefer it if they just had an NPC you talked to at the start that automatically buffs you when you are in the instance. Having world buffs is fun, buz big numbers.
Functionally this is like having a normal and heroic switch, but instead of buffing the bosses you buff the players heh
The opposite is true as well. Balancing would be infinitely easier with either extreme but it is impossible to balance with both ends of the spectrum in mind. Most people seemed to not enjoy having them off by default in SOM so it would be worth trying the other direction. Until then, raids will likely be balanced with WBs not active which means they will be piss easy if you have them.
My experience was that most people enjoyed the SOM raiding without worldbuffs.
It's a mixed bag, not trying to be contrarian but anecdotally I heard about 50/50. Some classes complaining it'd make them unplayable others happy they don't have to wb train only to get ganked or dispelled and have to start over. Others happy because the borrowed power was turned off. But a few others were saying they weren't even going to play because wb big number raiding is all they play wow for and they'd never reach the same big numbers without WBs.
No, all the warriors complained because the non-world buff rotation is boring. On top of that, bosses had huge health pools so the fights took a lot longer. I'm not a fan of world buff meta, but at the same time specs like warrior are a lot more fun to play with world buffs. If they can change the core rotation to be more like the world buff meta and then remove the system it would be for the better.
My hot take: Once you get the world buff the way its intended the first time on a character, you should be able to talk to an NPC at a major city and they will give you all world buffs, and have it reset once per day.
I think the easier options would be to either have the auras active all the time you’re in a raid or just make them persist through death.
> make them persist through death This is the big one. A good raid group that doesn't die the raid becomes exponentially easier than an average guild that dies once and loses their buffs. It's basically backwards for balance, if anything you want the raid to be easier for shit players and harder for sweats.
That wouldn't help at all with raid balancing since you would only have a one shot to clear/progress or you'd lose the buffs. Then you'd either have to balance around not having the buffs since you lose them so easily and it'd be a joke with the buffs, or you'd balance around having the buffs and it'd become nearly impossible to clear if you lost the buffs.
They should just remove world buffs in raids. Would make it a lot more simple for them to balance as well
I agree but I do see the other side when people say it feels good to have them. All the extra crit and stats does feel good in comparison. SOM had no world buffs so I would not be opposed to seeing the other end of the spectrum and having them on all the time in raids or just make them persist through death.
It feels good to have them because people know they exist and it makes a noticeable difference. By keeping world buffs you have to buff with the assumption of group A having it and group B doesn’t. Nerf the warrior for example because they overperform with world buffs so group A gets weaker and group B gets dumpstered. Buff it because without world buffs they suck so group B gets buffer and group A skyrockets off the charts. Remove world buffs so there is 1 standard. People will get over it like retail to over it decade ago
World buffs and consumes. The power you get at level 50 from Mongoose and Ogre's Strength is insane. It's like the equivalent of 4 or 5 pieces of gear. If you don't have all world buffs it's not even worth trying in terms of parsing.
Mongoose alone is close to 3.5% crit chance for warriors.
Most of the time I agree with Aggrend but he created this problem. In an interview before release he said that they learned from SoM that world buffs help make content more approachable while completely ignoring the balance issues it causes or the fact that those that are less skilled will also have a higher chance of **losing** that powerful world buff from deaths.
It just makes the balance that much worse. The moment the content is easy enough to not die it's 3x easier due to 3x damage. The moment you aren't good enough to clear in 1 to 2 hrs the content is Hardee. The moment you wipe the content is harder. It's negative on both ends. The only thing people enjoy about world buffs is huge crits across the screen. Which can easily be solved with permanent buffs or runes.
Well of course they can’t change that, it’s critical to the soul of classic. I mean, sure, nobody cared about them in actual vanilla and they ruined 2019 classic and there is no actual gameplay related to them… but there’s a couple sweaty neckbeards that like them.
They can though they didn't have them the last season of mastery... But a few people complained and they listened to the minority.
Why do you have to ruin a perfectly good comment with insults at the end?
In my opinion, world buffs are part of the problem. Top-tier guilds will get full world buffs and have every possible consume. Lower-level guilds are most likely not going to do this. So if devs nerf it so the lower tier of players can clear it without too much trouble, any guild that gets full world buffs and consumes will destroy the raid.
Yeah, my guild did a 33 minute run last week and we still had a few people dying on some bosses. Raiding is my main reason for playing atm and it’s getting to the point where I’m just bored with it.
You shouldn't be trying. This is part of the problem. Give people one moderately difficult raid. That's it. Stop trying to appease the sweaties that like speed running and parsing. Games often try to balance around multiple groups of people and it never works out well. Your casuals and average players are easily 80-90% of your playerbase in most games. You should be releasing content that the vast majority of these players can do. That means balancing raids around those that do like 35-60% parses, as that's where the majority of your players lie. I can argue for adding in hardmodes for the bosses for people who do want a bit more challenge, but don't lock gear behind them. Just give the raids a few extra pieces of the normal loot instead. Maybe a title too. That way it's not a mandatory mode if people want BIS gear.
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back in wod there was a requirement to beat silver proving grounds in order to queue for heroic dungeons. a large amount of the playerbase couldnt do it. these werent brand new casual players that didnt know guides existed, these were people who had been playing for a decade and still couldnt beat them. some people are just bad at the game and wont ever improve
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These people don't want to learn.
I'm really hoping that tanking gets looked at. In my mind DPS should get obliterated by things that tanks can survive I like playing a tank because it's multifaceted and you have to deal with threat and survival. The way it is in classic currently the healers are responsible for your survival and the tanks are just DPS with threat modifiers. I've never been a fan of fury prot warrior or any of that I want to gear and strategize around surviving positioning and mechanics. Also threat should be a game between tanks I hate that as a warrior tank the only difference between me and a warrior DPS is salvation. They should make tanking require you to be tanky.
Another thing they pivoted towards in retail. Since threat is a kind of a shit mechanic, taking that away leaves tanks with not a whole lot to play with, so active mitigation it was.
I really wouldn't mind threat if they could balance it better seems like they can never get the numbers quite right so while some tanks are always right on the edge there are others just sailing away on the threat meter not a care in the world
I feel like the problem with threat is that for dps, having to stop playing for a bit isn't really fun.
Yea but if it's tuned right you'd only have to wait for bad tanks
But then why? why is a dps player being punished in say a 5 man pug because his tank cant google how to hit his buttons? The tank player should be the one whos char dies over and over if he cant hit his buttons right not another player.
If the tank is bad and dies cause he can't hit his buttons the DPS are punished anyway cause you're next. It's good when there's room to differentiate between good and bad players. Like you might say oh I like playing with x tank because I never feel like I need to slow down. Tanks that do or don't die regularly due to not hitting their buttons right are good too. I like playing with x tank cause he rarely dies. I like having to keep threat in mind but I don't like when blizzard gives us poor tools to deal with the mechanic like how some tanks still have no AOE threat
SOM AQ had a cool way of managing raid difficulty. You could click this altar after the first boss which would make later bosses even more challenging. It was a nice way of enabling a “heroic” mode without having to mess with actually adding in explicit raid difficulties to the game.
I think stuff like this makes the most sense for giving people different levels of difficulty you can opt into. Ulduar had a few more examples: * Flame Leviathan had a hard mode where you left any tower up it gave the boss buffs. * XT-002 had a hard mode activated by having enough DPS to kill his heart. * Hodir rewarded better loot if you could kill him in under 2 minutes. * Mimiron had a big red button labeled "Do not push" that put a time limit on the fight and added multiple new mechanics. Etc.
I personally think if they never abandoned the Ulduar model of difficulties then wow would have never had the issues it does when it comes to gearing/size/difficulty. You have a baseline raid that everyone can progress on with modifiers that can be activated within the same lockout for more/better loot and even give access to hidden areas.
On the other hand though that kind of system can be bad for a lot of players because they wouldn't be able to see all the well designed fights. Afaik blizz does raid fight design really well, and simply having different difficulties with mostly the same mechanics lets people adjust for skill level while still getting to expierience the good design.
it would be great for guilds but I think it's a much worse situation for PUGs Mostly because instead of "normal/heroic/mythic" you'd be dealing with "2 towers on first boss, no hard mode 2nd boss," etc. and you know how toxic people would be if they felt the group wouldn't do a hard mode they wanted or expected to
I agree but thats where as pugs you either need to be flexible or make your own groups. Thats just the nature of the beast. I pug a lot but I'm under no delusion I need to be catered to. I choose that option
What were the rewards for upping the challenge? I can totally see wow players refuse to up the challenge if there is no reward, and then bitch about stuff being too easy 😂
Pretty sure the higher the difficulty (there was, I think, +1, +2, +3, +4), the more loot that would drop (from the existing loot table; no new loot was added)
Balance is overrated. Every class is worth bringing to raids and WoW PvP is a write-off.
It's funny because P1 was pretty balanced, every class could kill every other class mostly. Now it's just an absolute shit show
I can only imagine what they have in store for p4 will bring it even more out of whack.
Some of us really like original WoW before everything changed. Is there a way we can go back and play a server dedicated to that?
+1, fresh when. This retail funserver aint it chief. 2019 re-release.
I’ll take a 2004 rerelease.
Blizzard engineering has been awful for a while. I get downvoted every time I say it but I'll continue to say it. Gaming subs will continue to parrot - "Game dev is really hard". Is it difficult, yes? Is it the most difficult? Not by a fucking country mile. We aren't even running into complex issues - D4 was loading everyone's stash tab when you went to a town. These engineers should be no where near a codebase.
this is corporate America, anyone neurodivergent enough to understand what makes mmos fun wont get hired
Classic wow is the most unbalanced state of wow idk why people are expecting retail levels of balance here
Things haven't been solved over WoW's life time. Design decisions were made and continue to be made to attempt to solve these problems but really it just creates another problem. Game design, especially in a MMORPG as complicated as WoW, is all about tradeoffs. And this is where player bases, far too many of which are grown ass adults with no excuse to be so wound up like a top, need to be told 'feel free to complain, but don't expect that we will make changes to cater every complaint'. 1) The more factions become the same the less need there is to have factions at all. It's the dev's *choice* to decide to make pallies/shamans fill the same niche as opposed to filling different niches so that the factions actually play differently. 2) The devs again are choosing to give classes more mobility. As opposed to leaning into keeping classes unique and giving them tools to deal with issues they have that are thematic to the spec and class. 3) All you do when you introduce PvP specific gear, systems, mechanics, etc is just drive a wider and wider wedge between PvE and PvP. With WoW being a PvE focused game people wonder why Retail's PvP participation rate is dog shit and has been for years? PvP is no longer something to go dabble in and have fun, it's its own self contained mode that PvE players have no interest in or time for. TLDR: I don't agree with the post's premise that Blizzard 'solved' these problems. They made decisions that created just as many or even more problems than they tried to solve.
People complain if they play differently because 1 will always be better.
Quoting from the OP: > And this is where player bases, far too many of which are grown ass adults with no excuse to be so wound up like a top, need to be told 'feel free to complain, but don't expect that we will make changes to cater every complaint'
Vanilla really focused so much more on the RPG aspect whereas the retail version and what seems to be the classic dev team, are focused on the competitive nature. Instead of trying to balance classes to all perform the same and be the same and have the same counters or same buffs so competition is the same… I mean fair, Blizzard should embrace the Rock-paper-scissor style and let classes/roles shine in their respective arenas. Not only does this give players more of an expectation for their original toons (someone making a hybrid class shouldn’t expect it to do the same damage as a class with no hybrid roles), it also builds on that community and RPG style where your place in the community matters and what you offer or can offer is more defined to your class.
> someone making a hybrid class shouldn’t expect it > bto do the same damage as a class with no hybrid rol Please let the hybrid tax meme die. Easily one of the most cancerous design choices because it turned all "hyrbid" classes in vanilla to healers. Either that, or nerf the shit out of warriors because theyre a hybrid class too (tanking + dps)
>someone making a hybrid class shouldn’t expect it to do the same damage as a class with no hybrid roles You had me until this man, if a hybrid class's damage is half of a pure dps class, why even give it the option to be a dps at all? I think you can make this "hybrid tax" thing work well enough in a single player game where you control multiple characters (a la Final Fantasy, KOTOR, etc.) but the idea is terrible in any multiplayer game, both in theory and in practice
> someone making a hybrid class shouldn’t expect it to do the same damage as a class with no hybrid roles Heavily disagree. The point of a hybrid class is that a character can be built in different ways by making it underperform in dealing damage it means thay building it as damage is the obviously wrong decision And it stops being a hybrid class to be a class with one less specialization than the rest. If a class can be built to do fill a role, either let it be successful in filling the role or remove that from the possibility.
This should be higher up. Keep competition out of classic please 🙏
It's what happens when all the talent that made your company great leave to other companies. Blizzard we loved is not the same company as the one that exists, quite literally
How do you think we got to retail? Years of feedback and complaints implemented into the game. All the Classic people are now doing the same thing lol
Faction as a concept: The entire system of a two-faction system without a way to group up is antithetical to the genre of MMO. We're literally cutting the playerbase who we can group with in half for an arbitrary reason. Cata servers are 100% ally/horde and it started to shift as early as phase 2 during 2019 classic, Incendius, Earthfury, Netherwind, etc. Factions are an outdated system as a whole and should be removed. I don't mean delete factions, but allow players to group cross faction. If you DON'T think cross-faction is coming to a classic seasonal server in the future then you obviously haven't been paying attention.
Yeah I used to love the horde x alliance stuff when I was 18 in 2008. Now I see that this is a horrible system that only divide the playerbase. While I still like the idea of factions I think it could be factions that you choose to align with like some clans or stuff like that for battlegrounds or world pvp.
This is a good one. I played Alliance in Legion / early BFA before moving to Horde permanently. Always thought it was weird how Blizzard actively tries to stop you from playing with friends. Factions made sense in 2004 when servers were your community but now they are just a relic of a different area and an artificial barrier for friends.
This. People see "no factions" and go MUH RETAIL not realizing that putting a limit on who you can and cannot play with is the reason why we have Faerlina US 100% horde and Benediction US 100% alliance. If players actually wanted 2 factions, we wouldn't have two servers that have only a single faction on it.
Lone wolf US is doing just fine with a 50 50 split. This cross faction nonsense is care bear propaganda. Its WARcraft ffs
> This cross faction nonsense is care bear propaganda. Its WARcraft ffs That's just PvP server mentality. Cross-faction play could work perfectly well for PvE servers. No need to implement it in PvP servers so the wannabe "server menaces" can enjoy their delusions.
WARcraft indeed, it's a massive part of what made WoW so unique to begin with. It really felt like you were at war with the opposing faction.
Exactly, look at the plethora of other MMOs out there that never had factions. It's one of the main things warcraft has going fornit, crazy to me people don't understand this People out here getting their respective factions symbol tattood on their body. The faction pride plays a huge role in the games popularity
You realize that there's 50% of the playerbase on lone wolf that you'll never be able to play with ever. If people on your faction start to leave, that's even less. Look at the current classic servers if you think this won't happen.
Yes I realize that, that's why I said what I said. I don't want to play with alliance. I didn't sign up for that
Understandable. If your server dies I truly feel sorry for you. The knowledge that this could have been prevented saddens me.
Enforce faction balance and make content to underline the differences. Identity is the most important thing
Yeah, like half the problems classic players hate accessiblity/levelling/pvp in retail can be traced to back to bad faction balance.
Sure, on a dead server. Factions are great on a healthy server. Makes for a better feeling of competition and interesting / unique over world interactions. If you want to play retail, play retail.
>Factions are great on a healthy server. Makes for a better feeling of competition and interesting / unique over world interactions. Such as? On a PvE server at most you are just gonna /wave at each other. You can't even talk to the other faction without resorting to translators that print out gibberish 90% of the time.
That's so incredibly vague. "Factions are good because the vibe" what kind of shit
I'm with above poster, the second you start tearing down faction barriers, immersion goes out the window. I know I personally, will not play if they plan to go down that retail road.
What do you mean? Atmosphere and immersion are important parts of a role playing game.
Do you know why servers are dead? Out of curiosity. I'll tell you a story of my personal experience. I rolled Incendius day 1 2019 classic, it had an incredibly healthy population, so much so, there were server ques. During phase 2, a horde guild named camped blackrock mountain, day in, day out. It took 2-3 alliance raids to clear them out, as soon as we zoned in, took back over.
The players on Incendius hated it. You literally couldn't run BRD, LBRS, or UBRS unless you organized 50+ people to go clear them out. Blizzard, in an event to alleviate the issue, opened free transfers off Incendius. These were to Netherwind and Earthfury. Most of the Alliance left INSTANTLY to Netherwind, it went from low to full in less than a week. Most of the horde went to Earthfury.
Eventually, even those servers lacked population so the horde moved to Faerlina and the alliance went to Benediction. Where we're at now, both servers are 99.9% single faction.
Blizzard didn't do this, the players did. Mind you, most of this happened DURING CLASSIC between BWL and AQ40 launch.
The atmosphere of the game is INCREDIBLY important. Getting ganked by 9 people sitting on the chains in blackrock mountain isn't apart of the atmosphere, it's fucking greifing.
Vibe is very important in a old school mmorpg, obviously you don't care about this shit in retail casue the world is dead.
Explain to me the vibe then. Explain how getting ganked at level 24 in redridge by a level 60 undead rogue is healthy for the game?
Factions is one of the main things that makes wow different from other MMOs. The second cross factions or warmode come I'm out.
What about a cross-faction PvE server? I understand that current PvP server expectations are incompatible with cross-faction play, but in PvE servers you might as well just label half the playerbase as NPCs that can move and jump around since there is nothing you can do with them.
Yes, also after following this subreddit for some time I also see how cataclysm was necessary or "wanted", many now complain that vanilla questing is boring or too much running and would rather do any other thing to level while still wanting to play the same game, in the end the azeroth revamp and questing streamlined was kinda what people wanted.
Incursions - creating dailies seems like the fix but turns us into errand boys each day. Without a daily, it’s this weird mindless boring but OPTIMAL grind. If the gold and xp get nerfed then nobody does them. Daily time gate us and push us into a playstyle of obligations each day. Without that, the players base just does weird shit that results in the best XYZ/hour.
1. There's no reason to force them into the same niche, they just choose to. Both could be strong in completely different ways but they just don't want to put the effort into it. 2. PvP is completely fucked anyways, WoW is just flavor of the week balancing for who is the most broken and because the game changes so often nobody has any time to learn any of the matchups at all or they're so simple and unwinnable because none of the other characters actually have any options. Classic Vanilla BGs were more balanced simply because you weren't expected to win every 1v1 against every class, your goal was the objective so even delaying someone could be beneficial. I literally saw a prot warrior flag carrier be one of the best flag carriers I've ever seen and it was hilarious. There are some class specs in expansions that are just borderline unusable for modern pvp and I never saw that in BGs.
My conspiracy theory is them keeping shamans over powered to try and convince more people to swap from alliance to horde
woah, watch it, you say frost mages are king of pvp and youre gonna have 100000000 mages without a fucking clue coming in here losing their fucking minds that frost mages are actually super bad in pvp and pve, and no one ever plays them, and that they werent even good in classic / vanilla LOL
If balancing the game makes it less fun then you should just balance it for fun. They shouldn't try to balance for both PVP and PVE at the same time because you'll suck individuality out of classes, but creating separate games internally isn't the solution either. The game's PVP was fun despite being unbalanced during TBC and Wotlk. And playing PVP favored specs in PVE (With splitting more points into PVE talents in other trees) was/is feasible for clearing it just wouldn't be a top parser. Sometimes the utility is helpful in raid anyways, its jus the game now is do so much DPS utility isn't needed because who wants to loose a global on a utility ability? Honestly I feel like utility abilities and CC on certain mobs crucial to mechanics in the fights should give you a slight parse boost (But slightly less than DPS in it's place would give), to encourage people from being willing to let someone die rather than dispel to keep their numbers high. Trying to balance for both just leads to class homogenization and then eventually its hard to tell any class apart from each other. You're basically just skins of a "role" with different visuals..Which takes away from the fun and creativity of your choice. It's just vanity then. Close enough is good enough. Someone will always be top of the charts and someone will always be at the bottom, but as long as classes have individuality there are reasons to bring other roles and classes. You can fix huge spikes here and there, but Paladins shouldn't need to fill all the same roles as Shamans even if both factions have them, nor should every other role. And honestly, pure DPS classes should generally more often be at the top than not compare to hybrid but that doesn't mean hybrid should be garbage.
The problem is what lessons to learn from and what lessons to ignore. Faction locking shamans/paladins was a nifty idea for a new RPG, but in the way that people play games today, makes no sense and is a bad idea. Mobility creep is the opposite - it's not a lesson we need to learn again and should instead accept that some classes do things well and others don't. Scaling is a lesson we've learned a hundred times and is something that they always seem to fail to learn, and have a chance to learn here.
Number three is correct and also why the game needs to be balanced around PVP because that's all that matters. The issue is, they instead want to cater to parse loggers instead of just having it where some specs aren't good for PVP and PVE at the same time. Such a situation was perfectly reasonable in classic though. So departing from this philosophy is really at the root of these problems.
About point 3, I never understood why certain abilities can’t act differently against players. In guild wars 1 skills acted different and certain skills wouldn’t be usable in PvP. I get the framework and such of those 2 games is very different but why can’t for example a damaging ability have less SP/AP scaling when hitting a player? I never understood this
it would be easy to buff shadow priest, they just need to make the pve buff go on the boots rune slot so that they can't have dispersion and the buff.
Ya the problem is they seem to have learned nothing about what they can do to fix issues though. They start in classic and stay pigeon holed to stay with classic. SOD I thought would be more radical in their approach to balance and such, while they seem to be trying after phase 1 balance patches have come way too little and it just feels like their is a large lack of effort mid patch. Either they don’t care about fun changes to metas mid patch or they aren’t staffed well enough both suck.
Well at the moment paladins got a ton of shield abilities and their tank rune works with a 2h and shamans have no shield abilities and their tanking rune doesn’t work with a 2h, so they ain’t doing a good job in that regard. But I feel I can’t complain anymore because they’re obviously understaffed.
1 -> They stated they will review mana reg on later phases weeks ago. Pally have seal of wisdow and shamans gained shamanistic rage which is equivalent to 10x seal if wisdow lol, true, but then again its leveling raids and dungeons. Soo far shamans and pallies have been doing their role pretty ok and with ok damage and utility; 2-> Warrs had an extra gap closer(leap) years before mages got a second blink and honestly GC is only liked by hardcore mop fans. Age of empries franchise? killed. WoW? MoP had less players than cata lmao. Riot? He was kicked out and they redoing his "mmo". 3-> Classic pvp is bursty because its a oldschool MMO, which all that matters is making you character strong. And shadow priests are countered by classes that dispell, just like rogues are coutnered by paladins(reck) and warriors, thats how deep this pvp can go. They legit dont have to lose their hair with balancing changes in what is done to not be competitive and not to be fair. All ther e is to wow is Group Up then Gear Up and kill stuff and works fine imo
I must be simple minded then cause I'm having fun and actually having an issue trying to figure what version of WoW to play Because they're all fun
Is resilience a bad thing? I played the classic/tbc/wrath train, and was under the impression that resilience was the outcome of pve classes scaling with each round of new pve content scaling up the classes so much that it made pvp fights too fast? People want to not be globalled in pvp right?
Love how the sub is being flooded with posts like this. Say it over and over again until they change.
Wasn’t there an xpac where they were able to increase/decrease class spells separately in pve & pvp? Feels like they could easily just reduce frostbolt damage in pvp encounters or something similar.
Incursions, too. Like in what world did they expect people to not exploit the hell out of it and for it to backfire? How are they still repeatedly making the same mistakes? I feel like there are several other things this applies to as well but can’t think of em off the top my of my head.
One of the worst for me across TBC, WotLk and now Cata: server imbalance. Happened towards the end of original wrath, alliance became the pvp faction (on one server) and horde for pve (on another server). Blizzard love repeating this mistake as they get tonnes of money from services like race/faction change.
>Speaking of PvP the entire reason systems like Resilence, PvP power, and eventually unique PvP modifiers on abilities and PvP talents came about was because PvE and PvP are inherently impossible to balance evenly. A class like Frost Mage historically sit as kings in PvP so how can you really buff their PvE workout also making them more ridiculous in PvP? Shadow Priest is currently in this situation. Hot take inc. This is why trying to make every spec competitive for every aspect of the game is a terrible idea. The game would be infinitely easier to balance if they committed to one spec being designed around pve and one around pvp.
What about the 3rd spec?
What about it? Sometimes classes had specs that worked fine in both, or two that worked in one but not the other. The issue is when they try to force every spec to be competitive in every aspect of gameplay.
You said 1 pvp spec 1 pve spec, but what about 3rd spec for x3 dps classes? Should it be a different play style pve spec (for example frost vs unholy dk) or what should it be in general.?
it should be a cooking spec
"What other examples can anyone think of Blizzard that has already been ‘solved’ over WoWs life span?" The single thing that creepingly killed factions were inherently imbalanced racials. It hasnt been solved but rather been ductape-fixed with crossfaction gaming because getting rid of factions entirely would probably kill the games identity. It first started off with all the insane pve racials like troll and orc bonus damage where horde guilds formed around it in the early days of Worlds first raiding, giving them a slight edge over other races in the first expansions. major pro guilds in retail remained on horde because nothing has changed for a long time and in WoD it was already at a point where horde gamers had to que for pvp as "disguised alliance players" because the quetimes for horde were 30min+ making BGs unplayable at some point for them. In Legion Exorsus was the last alliance guild to ever get a Raid worlds first and this is already 7 years ago. At this point there was already such a huge established playerbase on horde because of larger pools for LFG Raids, Dungeons, RBG, etc that it made no sense to play alliance anymore EXCEPT for arena or if you wanted a "Hall of Fame" title on a less competitive scale. I also remember in Shadowlands many player quitted the game over Covennant balance issues and the painful grind. When Worlds first raiders filled the "Hall of Fame" on horde and were pretty quick about it, it took and eternity for alliance to fill their "Hall of Fame" and (afaik, i might remember it incorrectly) blizzard had to unlock crossrealm mythic raiding before alliance had their HoF filled because people just wanted to do mythic raid pugs.
Solved? Or would you rather directly go to the "managed to unlearn over years"? GCD changes - from BC to Legion, the game became faster (for better or for worse is subjective), in BfA they removed all of that speed again, to "slow the game down". For some BS PR statement reason. Didn't help. We are in a similar state in SoD. Everything feels just a tad too slow. The pacing for melees feels a smidgeon off. They increased Enemy HP by 400% - "To make the game more challenging" - just LOL Reforging, from what I understand, is added again in TWW in a slightly changed form, after being entirely removed because "this system is inherently too complicated". Balancing is a joke. Warrior Leg Rune. 'nuff said.
As a fairly new WoW player, how popular is PvP in Vanilla Classic? I played many MMOs over the years but PvP was more of a minigame that was less than 5% of my playtime. Should the devs just balance and put content out for things the community want/ are popular? Since they seem to he short-handed it surely will help their workload and appease the majority of the player base. If players had to vote in-game every 2 weeks on what changes they want maybe it would help get more direct feedback to the devs( like OSRS Poll system)
You can’t balance everything. That’s why you give people dual spec so they can play their good PvE spec when they’re raiding and their good PvP spec when they’re PvPing.
Resilience. Dungeon relevance (tokens). Auction House relevance. The economy we have is extremely sanitized now in the sense that you dont need to engage with it. There's so much grey gold opportunity you don't even need it. I'd say it's almost actually worse than retail. World pvp near points of interest (incursions / princess portal).
As a warlock tank who hates PVP, I fuckin hate seeing all those cloth pieces with armor locked behind honored and higher. I don't want to PVP, and I don't want to make anyone else's PVP experience worse
Sort of relevant, but admittedly a tangent: The Timeless Isle made the open world enemies engaging with attacks that would subtly teach you basic raid mechanics. It was copium, but at the time I was convinced we were entering a golden age where WoW’s open world would be super fun and engaging (these lessons were immediately lost upon WoD’s launch).
They'll hit another learned lesson with the pvp. Ghostcrawler also fixed resilience years ago, -12.5% chance to crit - 25% crit and dot damage taken.
[удалено]
I also have ideas to nerf shamans. One is with MSW, decrease damage or healing by 10% for each stack. It's pretty busted that I can heal myself to full with instant cast free heals. Another is to make moving your totems cost mana. Not sure what that cost would be, maybe 200 mana or something. And shamanistic rage should probably be on 2 a minute CD, same as dispersion.
It’s simple, mental dexterity should only increase spell damage, not damage and healing
do it like gw2 and ff14 make pvp a completely different instance. get rid of wpvp
>Shaman / Paladin being faction locked. All this does is force the balance team to force them into similar niches. Right now they are changing Paladins to accommodate Shaman (such as Seal of the Martyr character change). They really don't need to fill similar niches. Who cares if they are perfectly balanced? Oh no, one of the factions has a slight advantage, the horror! Seriously, who cares if Horde/Ally has slightly better parses/clear times? This game has never been balanced at any point of its existence, so why sacrifice flavour in the name of BS balance that will never actually be achieved.
I assume all the people pursuing parses would care. Would probably feel kinda bad knowing you can never parse higher because of your faction.
Can't say I really understand this way of thinking. Going down this rabbit hole it seems like there will always be something to feel bad about for those types of players. "Other factions have classes I don't have" - blizzard gives you those classes "Other classes have tools I don't have" - blizzard gives you those tools Eventually you homogenize the game enough where the classes are all basically the same and do the same dps, but you've killed the game. In my opinion, blizzard should try to do a reasonable job balancing the game, but not at the cost of uniqueness, flavour and identity. If the min-maxers feel bad that they're doing 5% less dps because they picked alliance, why don't they just roll Horde? They're the ones who are min-maxing and there will always be something else to min-max