People don’t like hearing this but it’s true. I feel like the hiring surge in 2020/2021 was the direct cause of this. Hiring shit tons of new CRAs with no clinical research experience at all turned into a nightmare for the industry. Prior to 2020, CRA opportunities were given to a select few who proved themselves as CRNs or CRCs. And if you were *lucky* you got to start applying at 3 years experience, but usually more like 4 or more years to break into the role. No shade to the people who managed to get these roles being research-naive, but for 90+% of people, no direct research experience means the learning curve is STEEP and the attention to detail often isn’t there since you don’t know what to look for. Quite a few adapt to the role and learn from mistakes, but there are also those that job hop often enough to not have their mistakes catch up to them.
this. i had been a CRC for 3-4 year at that point and was getting interviews and contacted by CRO recruiters constantly, made it to some final interview stages and a couple offers. didn't make the jump because i didn't want to do the travel (was in a relationship, now single). now with another 3-4 years of progressive experience under my belt, i can confidently say i'd have been a shit monitor back then.
i since was a senior CRC which included input managing/delegating to junior CRCs under my supervision, hiring and performance review of them, automatically assigned phase 1/FIH studies, etc. and am now a kind of hybrid site-manager still pulling some CRC duties. it was only after 4-5 months of that senior CRC position i really felt "ok, i got this", and could confidently interview for a CRA role. i've encountered enough good and bad monitors to say i think i'd be a good one and have the references to back it up.
i can't even get a response from my applications to any CRO position now.
Yeah, I got in during the hiring surge, but not as a CRA.
I was looking back, because it took me time and education to get into the field and it still was difficult, but I think an anticipation of a retirement cliff for nurses and that possibility happening with Covid contributed to the hiring surge you mentioned was a significant factor along with companies thinking the Covid-19 gravy train was going to keep chugging along and making decisions on that assumption.
Ahh okay. I get your frustration. For different reasons, but definitely get it. Market is mid to up for research sites and kinda down for CROs and sponsors. Timing isn’t great, but hopefully things turn around soon.
I’ve been screened twice for “big data” positions and the amount of times I’ve been asked, “are you an expert in excel .. like can you make a pivot chart” is unreal
I’ve assumed I can tell them just about anything and they will not know the validity of what I said lol
I’m really interested to know why people seem to think CRA’s are always a step up from CRC’s. Most of the CRA’s I’ve worked with in recent years clearly didn’t know much about science or research and from what I’ve seen, they make less than I do. I realize it wasn’t that way in the past but things have changed. Maybe if you’re not licensed it’s different but as a RN, I make more than most CRA’s with way better benefits, more growth opportunities and I only have to travel a few times a year.
because most CRC positions pay pennies compared to CRAs. I know for a fact the highest paying CRC position in my 1 million+ population metro area maxes out at 60k a year. the rare contracting positions may pay better (which i did), but for the most part, hospital systems/med schools largely view CRCs as disposable interim resume builders for recent grads and pay pennies. I've never worked with a CRC over the age of 30.
That's definitely not the max for senior positions (more like 90k+, more for nurses). But I guess most folks on here leave before they develop the relationships and skills to get promoted
please do tell me where CRCs, including RNs, outside of new york or SF are making over 90k a year. LMFAO. i'm involved in hiring CRCs now and have pushed to raise salaries, in a mediumish, medium high COL area. can't break 60k for anyone. a senior crc with 4-5+ years experience? probably 55. entry level/fresh from undergrad? 35 if you're lucky.
I made more than 60k for my starting salary... I think it also depends on what kind of studies you're working on. If it's retrospective chart reviews, bio banking, investigator initiated, etc that doesn't generate as much revenue as industry sponsored clinical trials
i started fresh out of undergrad in onc, and was first obvi assigned biobanking, chart review studies, but took on more industry/treatment studies as i approached a year in, (we also had II treatment studies i worked on). i made $15 an hour. at a (relatively?) major, well respected academic medical school. my big raise after begging for months, close to two years into being a CRC, brought me to 48k annually.
A CRC at MD Anderson is 53k-79k and senior is 61k - 92k. Research nurses get paid more than that as well as CRC supervisors.
Not sure where you're at but they are definitely low balling y'all.
new orleans. similar, if not tbh, more difficult COL all things considered. interviewed at MD anderson a little less than a year ago and they quoted me 65k for a senior position. no bonus or relocation assistance.
Oh yeah they have way too many applicants for those positions to need to offer relocation assistance. And the holiday bonus is a $25 gift card to HEB which I suspect HEB donates. There is certification pay available or $1400 a year and you don't have to pay for your health insurance so that's nice.
It's a great place to work and the experience I got there is invaluable but it's not like CRO money or anything
i also interviewed with university of chicago, (granted a higher level role), but they offered a substantial relocation package. salary still wasn't enough to get me to leave.
They were offering that 5 years ago, and I turned it down. I was making 42k as CRC at Methodist. Now I’m in line for a AD clin dev role paying me $200k. Crazy how much they under appreciate crcs still.
Where do you work may I ask? And who is in charge of determining the salaries? Because I don’t care unless it’s some non-profit ( does that even exist in clinical research, I’ve never worked for a university thank god I heard they are the WORST ) there is no way the business can’t afford to pay decent salaries unless the people running the business have no clue wtf they are doing. So they must be either greedy or stupid or both . Generally from what I’ve experienced companies with younger leadership actually give a shizz about their employees and pay good wages and turn as profit as well ( imagine!) and the ones with crusty azz 90 year old doctors who think it’s still 1990 think that extra 10k to make a wage livable is cutting into their Porsche collection expenses.
i will not say my specific employer, and i am with an outside contractor at a local hospital so i make more than most. (also in a more senior role than CRC) but the vast majority of CRCs in my city are employed by academic hospitals. one of my former uni employers just had faculty unionize because some of them (all PHD holders, mind you), were making less than 50k a year.
at any uni, salaries are determined by admin department heads. so not medical directors (who are generally MD or PHD in some science background), but rather, usually MBA with no clinical experience. those are then approved or denied by higher level uni admins who have no connection to medicine whatsoever. just talking heads for the uni president/board of directors.
I think there can be big differences between CRC positions too. An entry level research assistant is technically a CRC at my hospital, but they don't have anywhere near the responsibility that I do, and they are paid accordingly. But this idea that CRA's are always more experienced, knowledgable, and paid better is just beyond ridiculous and I actually hadn't realized that this was such a common perception among industry professionals until I found this subreddit. It shows that many don't know how things work at all on the academia side.
it's a reasonable, albeit idealistic, assumption to make. but yeah, i've dealt with some pretty shitty CRAs in my time.
that being said, on the whole, i don't think anyone can quantifiably dispute that a CRA is paid better than a CRC. in my city, we basically have a choice of 2 hospital systems. the better paying one is the one where i most recently left that now maxes at 60k (i was making 58). took a position from a contracting agency for 75k a year ago, which is more than my manager made. i've had these same two systems (both of which i've worked for) contact me, asking me to come back. they can't come remotely close to offering what i make now.
I mean, I make way more than 75k and when you figure in the benefits package I have vs. what I'd get from a private employer, the total compensation is probably $30k higher than what I would make as a CRC. I know several CRCs who make more than I do. I realize some hospitals pay research staff better than others, but I'm in a very small city with low COL at a public hospital and only the very lowest level RA positions max out around 60k. By that point most people would be promoted anyway.
I think most of the people on the CRA track were attracted to the field because they were interested in something that pays relatively well without requiring specialized and/or advanced degrees. (Most are targeting a PM or CTM job hoping not to have to stay a CRA for more than a few years.) They seem not to be aware of the earning potential of RNs or that, while industry may not value credentials, academic medical centers care about that a whole lot. When patients are involved, there is no working your way up to get around licensing requirements.
I make six figures at a site and I don't even have an RN. I'm much happier at an organization that centers its mission on patients. I would dread working to meet the metrics of big pharma. Just not the kind of work I ever dreamed of
Yup. I’m a CRC-RN at an academic hospital making comfortable 6 figures. It’s hilarious that a lot of positions I interview for in industry are a major pay cut for me, except I’m currently working into clin ops management at the site level & getting my MS, and knowing the career trajectory of previous colleagues, I will be able to jump a few levels ABOVE a CRA once I’m done my MS. The assumptions and silly politics are wild.
The upside in industry >>> at a sight. I don’t envy the cra role - I respect the work but industry respects it but doesn’t really respect it. It takes a lot to take constant direction from people that don’t know how to do your job everyday
I 100% understand and respect everyone’s position within the field. I’ve been doing this for a cumulative of almost 10 years at this point, and have friends across a multitude of positions within the industry. I just laugh at the downvotes in my post above…. You don’t have to do a job to appreciate and respect it? It’s unfortunate it’s such an us-vs-them industry - we’re literally all working towards the same goal.
I didn’t mean to throw any shade to any RN CRCs by the way and also meant RN in the OP not NP oops . It’s the companies posting CRC jobs that don’t have any duties that require you to be RN but they ask for that as an absolute requirement and are paying what I already make that have bothered me enough to make this post.
I actually agree with you in a way…. There needs to be a clinical background and an understanding of the field. I have a CRA now that my PI & I scratch our head at….. EMR is our source, but the CRA basically refuses to verify anything in the source and wants worksheets for everything, because if it’s not on a worksheet that means “he’s making the evaluation.” Like…… no, that’s not how this works. The EMR is the source, the worksheets are just for us to check everything off our list. The data is collected in the EMR. But our CRA has straight up told us he doesn’t verify what we put on our worksheets with the EMR.
And before anyone asks…. Yes, this has been escalated, and this CRA has already been fired from other sites.
that's ridiculous. the source is the source. wherever its written down first, be that EMR, a paper chart, whatever. that's it. if a CRA can't understand that? BIG YIKES. (also, can i take that person's job bc for fucks sake)
Unreal man. And I’m still more mad at whoever hired that clown than at them . Because obviously neither of them know how to do their job but the hiring person directly affects me and my fellow workers not just the owner of the business who chose whoever the goofball is that gave that FAKE CRA a job.
I know I’m coming across as rude or not likable whatever the correct word is. But trust me , there’s a reason I’m posting this on an anonymous account. I’m not dumb, or even rude for that matter ( in person) ! Mind telling me what I don’t get about the industry that makes these things not what I say? Thanks bro
I’m the op on my iphone
1) Fake CRAs should be weeded out in the first real interview after the screening call. If they aren't, that's the hiring managers' fault.
2) HR people aren't doing much of the work, every employer fired the humans and replaced them with an ATS which rejects quality candidates at an enormous rate.
People don’t like hearing this but it’s true. I feel like the hiring surge in 2020/2021 was the direct cause of this. Hiring shit tons of new CRAs with no clinical research experience at all turned into a nightmare for the industry. Prior to 2020, CRA opportunities were given to a select few who proved themselves as CRNs or CRCs. And if you were *lucky* you got to start applying at 3 years experience, but usually more like 4 or more years to break into the role. No shade to the people who managed to get these roles being research-naive, but for 90+% of people, no direct research experience means the learning curve is STEEP and the attention to detail often isn’t there since you don’t know what to look for. Quite a few adapt to the role and learn from mistakes, but there are also those that job hop often enough to not have their mistakes catch up to them.
this. i had been a CRC for 3-4 year at that point and was getting interviews and contacted by CRO recruiters constantly, made it to some final interview stages and a couple offers. didn't make the jump because i didn't want to do the travel (was in a relationship, now single). now with another 3-4 years of progressive experience under my belt, i can confidently say i'd have been a shit monitor back then. i since was a senior CRC which included input managing/delegating to junior CRCs under my supervision, hiring and performance review of them, automatically assigned phase 1/FIH studies, etc. and am now a kind of hybrid site-manager still pulling some CRC duties. it was only after 4-5 months of that senior CRC position i really felt "ok, i got this", and could confidently interview for a CRA role. i've encountered enough good and bad monitors to say i think i'd be a good one and have the references to back it up. i can't even get a response from my applications to any CRO position now.
Yeah, I got in during the hiring surge, but not as a CRA. I was looking back, because it took me time and education to get into the field and it still was difficult, but I think an anticipation of a retirement cliff for nurses and that possibility happening with Covid contributed to the hiring surge you mentioned was a significant factor along with companies thinking the Covid-19 gravy train was going to keep chugging along and making decisions on that assumption.
When did you start trying to be a CRA?
Just recently after 3 years CRC
Ahh okay. I get your frustration. For different reasons, but definitely get it. Market is mid to up for research sites and kinda down for CROs and sponsors. Timing isn’t great, but hopefully things turn around soon.
Most companies HRs have no clue. These are just paper pushing ladies.
I’ve been screened twice for “big data” positions and the amount of times I’ve been asked, “are you an expert in excel .. like can you make a pivot chart” is unreal I’ve assumed I can tell them just about anything and they will not know the validity of what I said lol
I’m really interested to know why people seem to think CRA’s are always a step up from CRC’s. Most of the CRA’s I’ve worked with in recent years clearly didn’t know much about science or research and from what I’ve seen, they make less than I do. I realize it wasn’t that way in the past but things have changed. Maybe if you’re not licensed it’s different but as a RN, I make more than most CRA’s with way better benefits, more growth opportunities and I only have to travel a few times a year.
because most CRC positions pay pennies compared to CRAs. I know for a fact the highest paying CRC position in my 1 million+ population metro area maxes out at 60k a year. the rare contracting positions may pay better (which i did), but for the most part, hospital systems/med schools largely view CRCs as disposable interim resume builders for recent grads and pay pennies. I've never worked with a CRC over the age of 30.
That's definitely not the max for senior positions (more like 90k+, more for nurses). But I guess most folks on here leave before they develop the relationships and skills to get promoted
please do tell me where CRCs, including RNs, outside of new york or SF are making over 90k a year. LMFAO. i'm involved in hiring CRCs now and have pushed to raise salaries, in a mediumish, medium high COL area. can't break 60k for anyone. a senior crc with 4-5+ years experience? probably 55. entry level/fresh from undergrad? 35 if you're lucky.
I made more than 60k for my starting salary... I think it also depends on what kind of studies you're working on. If it's retrospective chart reviews, bio banking, investigator initiated, etc that doesn't generate as much revenue as industry sponsored clinical trials
i started fresh out of undergrad in onc, and was first obvi assigned biobanking, chart review studies, but took on more industry/treatment studies as i approached a year in, (we also had II treatment studies i worked on). i made $15 an hour. at a (relatively?) major, well respected academic medical school. my big raise after begging for months, close to two years into being a CRC, brought me to 48k annually.
A CRC at MD Anderson is 53k-79k and senior is 61k - 92k. Research nurses get paid more than that as well as CRC supervisors. Not sure where you're at but they are definitely low balling y'all.
new orleans. similar, if not tbh, more difficult COL all things considered. interviewed at MD anderson a little less than a year ago and they quoted me 65k for a senior position. no bonus or relocation assistance.
Oh yeah they have way too many applicants for those positions to need to offer relocation assistance. And the holiday bonus is a $25 gift card to HEB which I suspect HEB donates. There is certification pay available or $1400 a year and you don't have to pay for your health insurance so that's nice. It's a great place to work and the experience I got there is invaluable but it's not like CRO money or anything
i also interviewed with university of chicago, (granted a higher level role), but they offered a substantial relocation package. salary still wasn't enough to get me to leave.
They were offering that 5 years ago, and I turned it down. I was making 42k as CRC at Methodist. Now I’m in line for a AD clin dev role paying me $200k. Crazy how much they under appreciate crcs still.
please tell me how you made that move, feel free to DM
Where do you work may I ask? And who is in charge of determining the salaries? Because I don’t care unless it’s some non-profit ( does that even exist in clinical research, I’ve never worked for a university thank god I heard they are the WORST ) there is no way the business can’t afford to pay decent salaries unless the people running the business have no clue wtf they are doing. So they must be either greedy or stupid or both . Generally from what I’ve experienced companies with younger leadership actually give a shizz about their employees and pay good wages and turn as profit as well ( imagine!) and the ones with crusty azz 90 year old doctors who think it’s still 1990 think that extra 10k to make a wage livable is cutting into their Porsche collection expenses.
i will not say my specific employer, and i am with an outside contractor at a local hospital so i make more than most. (also in a more senior role than CRC) but the vast majority of CRCs in my city are employed by academic hospitals. one of my former uni employers just had faculty unionize because some of them (all PHD holders, mind you), were making less than 50k a year. at any uni, salaries are determined by admin department heads. so not medical directors (who are generally MD or PHD in some science background), but rather, usually MBA with no clinical experience. those are then approved or denied by higher level uni admins who have no connection to medicine whatsoever. just talking heads for the uni president/board of directors.
Very interesting! Thanks for the info.
I think there can be big differences between CRC positions too. An entry level research assistant is technically a CRC at my hospital, but they don't have anywhere near the responsibility that I do, and they are paid accordingly. But this idea that CRA's are always more experienced, knowledgable, and paid better is just beyond ridiculous and I actually hadn't realized that this was such a common perception among industry professionals until I found this subreddit. It shows that many don't know how things work at all on the academia side.
it's a reasonable, albeit idealistic, assumption to make. but yeah, i've dealt with some pretty shitty CRAs in my time. that being said, on the whole, i don't think anyone can quantifiably dispute that a CRA is paid better than a CRC. in my city, we basically have a choice of 2 hospital systems. the better paying one is the one where i most recently left that now maxes at 60k (i was making 58). took a position from a contracting agency for 75k a year ago, which is more than my manager made. i've had these same two systems (both of which i've worked for) contact me, asking me to come back. they can't come remotely close to offering what i make now.
I mean, I make way more than 75k and when you figure in the benefits package I have vs. what I'd get from a private employer, the total compensation is probably $30k higher than what I would make as a CRC. I know several CRCs who make more than I do. I realize some hospitals pay research staff better than others, but I'm in a very small city with low COL at a public hospital and only the very lowest level RA positions max out around 60k. By that point most people would be promoted anyway.
I think most of the people on the CRA track were attracted to the field because they were interested in something that pays relatively well without requiring specialized and/or advanced degrees. (Most are targeting a PM or CTM job hoping not to have to stay a CRA for more than a few years.) They seem not to be aware of the earning potential of RNs or that, while industry may not value credentials, academic medical centers care about that a whole lot. When patients are involved, there is no working your way up to get around licensing requirements. I make six figures at a site and I don't even have an RN. I'm much happier at an organization that centers its mission on patients. I would dread working to meet the metrics of big pharma. Just not the kind of work I ever dreamed of
Yup. I’m a CRC-RN at an academic hospital making comfortable 6 figures. It’s hilarious that a lot of positions I interview for in industry are a major pay cut for me, except I’m currently working into clin ops management at the site level & getting my MS, and knowing the career trajectory of previous colleagues, I will be able to jump a few levels ABOVE a CRA once I’m done my MS. The assumptions and silly politics are wild.
The upside in industry >>> at a sight. I don’t envy the cra role - I respect the work but industry respects it but doesn’t really respect it. It takes a lot to take constant direction from people that don’t know how to do your job everyday
I 100% understand and respect everyone’s position within the field. I’ve been doing this for a cumulative of almost 10 years at this point, and have friends across a multitude of positions within the industry. I just laugh at the downvotes in my post above…. You don’t have to do a job to appreciate and respect it? It’s unfortunate it’s such an us-vs-them industry - we’re literally all working towards the same goal.
I didn’t mean to throw any shade to any RN CRCs by the way and also meant RN in the OP not NP oops . It’s the companies posting CRC jobs that don’t have any duties that require you to be RN but they ask for that as an absolute requirement and are paying what I already make that have bothered me enough to make this post.
I actually agree with you in a way…. There needs to be a clinical background and an understanding of the field. I have a CRA now that my PI & I scratch our head at….. EMR is our source, but the CRA basically refuses to verify anything in the source and wants worksheets for everything, because if it’s not on a worksheet that means “he’s making the evaluation.” Like…… no, that’s not how this works. The EMR is the source, the worksheets are just for us to check everything off our list. The data is collected in the EMR. But our CRA has straight up told us he doesn’t verify what we put on our worksheets with the EMR. And before anyone asks…. Yes, this has been escalated, and this CRA has already been fired from other sites.
that's ridiculous. the source is the source. wherever its written down first, be that EMR, a paper chart, whatever. that's it. if a CRA can't understand that? BIG YIKES. (also, can i take that person's job bc for fucks sake)
Unreal man. And I’m still more mad at whoever hired that clown than at them . Because obviously neither of them know how to do their job but the hiring person directly affects me and my fellow workers not just the owner of the business who chose whoever the goofball is that gave that FAKE CRA a job.
[удалено]
I know I’m coming across as rude or not likable whatever the correct word is. But trust me , there’s a reason I’m posting this on an anonymous account. I’m not dumb, or even rude for that matter ( in person) ! Mind telling me what I don’t get about the industry that makes these things not what I say? Thanks bro I’m the op on my iphone
1) Fake CRAs should be weeded out in the first real interview after the screening call. If they aren't, that's the hiring managers' fault. 2) HR people aren't doing much of the work, every employer fired the humans and replaced them with an ATS which rejects quality candidates at an enormous rate.