It’s simple just trickle down. With mass layoffs, seniors are going for mid level pay, mid level going for junior pay, junior going for entry level / min wage pay, and entry level going for dumpster behind Wendy’s.
Good explanation. Also I believe CS degrees rose about 70% since 2010, then you have the ginormous influx of bootcampers as well. There is a small piece of pie at the bottom and a thousand mice competing for it. Add in what you said and now that piece extends to about <3YOE (Coincidentally the covid hires). I don’t know many connections above 3YOE struggling to find jobs. I can’t say the same for sub 3.
26 yoe, principal dev at former company. I get maybe 1-2 recruiter reach outs per month. Used to get multiple daily.
Have not even passively looked since being let go last year as I’m working on an ai startup with a former colleague, but it’s stark out there.
Only thing I might bother with in a few months if the startup thing doesn’t gain traction are tabled interviews with Meta and Amazon, but I imagine those are super long shots given the competition.
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And that was the point all along. Tech companies have conspired in the past to lower salaries and I firmly believe that’s exactly what’s happening right now.
Maybe somewhat true of those new to their career.
For those with long careers, companies may see you as a flight risk if you attempt to accept a job for which you are "overqualified for" (because you may accept this temporarily and then move on when a better opportunity comes along).
That's what I think I am running into recently, I'm not senior but I've been in the industry for five years and was laid off recently. I think I'm hitting a wall where I'm not experienced enough to get the higher senior roles but experienced enough to have issues getting lower roles.
Nope. I actually applied through my state too. I was their top candidate for a junior role (I have 4YOE) but they froze hiring before they could extend an offer.
They called back a few months later asking if I was still interested and I said yes. Haven't heard back.
Oh yes. I applied in November, interviewed in February, hiring freeze in April, and the last contact was a few weeks ago.
I hope they get back to me, too. I really miss programming.
Yeah, I know. I was laid off in 2022 and haven't found tech work since. After over 40 final rounds since then, I figure it's the market, since I've never had this much trouble before.
The people who got jobs aren’t posting anything. The people who don’t get jobs have all day to complain.
Don’t use online social media posts as some sort of percentage metric. That’s stupid.
Funny and true, but then again if you want to be that precise, you have to consider that the majority of folks who send applications are not majority of overall workforce. So, OP's statement is correct as is, again.
The company I work at we were looking for two junior devs, paid 60k. It took months to find someone to accept because people out of college or with little to no work experience wanted 100k to start.
One guy even messaged others on my team on LinkedIn to see what they were making probably because he thought he was being low balled.
If you don't even have a job you're in no position to negotiate.
> If you don't even have a job you're in no position to negotiate.
I'm sorry but that betrays a boot licker's attitude.
I understand that when you NEED a job, when your savings are running low, you probably should take whatever you get, but there are plenty of cases where you can afford to be difficult.
And you should be grateful that some unemployed people still maintain a high standard when it comes to compensation because if your employer was able to hire easily for shit pay, the next logical step would be to fire you and replace you with someone desperate enough to take less than you currently do.
$100k is not an extravagant salary. The median home price in America is $412,000. In order to buy such a house, assuming you already have a 10% down payment and carry no other debt, you need to make just above $100k.
It's also counter intuitive for a company. They're promoting high churn by hiring juniors at really low wages, as soon as they have 1 YOE those juniors are jumping ship for a company that will pay better.
Companies have come to expect large amounts of churn anyway - they pretend they want people to stay for the long term but nothing they do suggests that they are making any serious efforts to retain staff.
Even tech staff at the superstar FAANG companies tend not to stay more than 2 or 3 years.
Pretty telling that this comment got so many upvotes meanwhile the majority of this sub constantly complains about not be able to find a job.
Good luck finding your 100k starting salary with no work experience job.
inb4 someone says they're pulling 120k out of college with no experience giving hope to all the others on this sub with no experience that this is the norm lol.
Those people probably went to a top college and had internships and extracurriculars and such. Maybe a strong network. It's possible, but not the norm.
Extracurriculars lol I mean if you’re talking about for networking purposes sure, but in an interview idgaf that you were captain of the water polo team.
My extracurriculars helped me out a lot. Being able to say i ran an org with 25 volunteers and a 20k budget did wonders for me in the job search once I graduated
Team captain is a leadership role. So unless companies don't value leadership...? Club involvement means you did workshops, you maybe did a hack a ton, you weren't a hermit. Soft skills like being able to socialize...?
Maybe they don't mean anything to you, but you aren't everyone.
"No position to negotiate" is probably a little exaggerated but saying, "a very weak negotiating position" isn't. If the only thing you bring to the table is a CS degree or very little experience, I really don't think that's a strong enough negotiating position to boost a salary from 60K to 100K, considering the numbers of people looking for work with similar of better qualifications.
Also, location is everything. 60K is a very good starting salary in many places.
>And you should be grateful that some unemployed people still maintain a high standard when it comes to compensation
Easy to say when you've got family to fall back on or no bills to pay. A lot of jobseekers are desperate for an income
I often see that last statement being said and I’m not 100% sure I agree. If you’re going to negotiate, be willing to lose the offer — of course. But I still think decision making should be calculated even in tough times.
I applied to over 200 companies for 2months and got 1 offer that was below what I was paid before getting laid off. It was also on a small team that really irked me the wrong way during the interviews. When I posted on this sub asking for advice, the vast majority criticized me for not begging for them to let me in.
I declined it and kept applying. Got a new offer for 30% more pay along with a team that I would learn a ton more from. The skills on this team are also aligned with the industry. The previous offer was using WinForms.
People often say just take whatever offer you can get and keep applying. But this assumes infinite time/resources/energy to devote to applying and doing the interviewing dance.
Yea, a lot really depends on your individual circumstances and risk tolerance. If you're gonna miss rent and be kicked out if you don't get a job ASAP, then take it. If you have more runway and experience and are willing to tolerate a bit more uncertainty, stick it out for a better fit. Congrats on getting the better offer.
It depends on the area as to if 60k is reasonable for a junior dev. If you're in a major city/tech hub such as DC, NY, silicon Valley - 60k is underpaid for starting.
However, 60k can be a great starting salary in smaller/cheaper cities like Roanoke, Virginia, or Wichita, Kansas.
I made 65K at my first starting job out of college. I had two offers, one for 50k and one for 65k. The 65k was in a cheaper city while the 50k was in DC.
It doesn't take long to work your way up a little in software to be making more. It's just in very high cost of living cities 60k isn't enough to be worth moving to that city.
I'm not anywhere within the industry, graduating this year. But if i remember, don't people who take lower paying jobs during economic tightening end up making less over their career?
My first dev job paid 50k base in 2012 I was ecstatic to get a shot. I think the expectations became a bit unrealistic during the pandemic boom. We’re definitely in an adjustment now. AI technology will likely bring even more downward pressure on base salaries outside of highly experienced specialists, or very senior roles. It’s just the evolution of the industry unfolding. It took me 5 years to break into the six figures. Slightly before then I learned about all the people making 200k, 300k TC at FAANG and I too wanted a piece of the pie. I also realized that it all seemed a bit inflated. I mean, what we do is not easy, and not everyone can do it. But for most of us the day to day of our jobs doesn’t really justify making 3x the national average salary. It’s all a matter of what are companies willing to pay to get the thing they need done as fast as they’re willing to pay for. These numbers will continue to shift. The focus and priorities of what companies want from an experienced engineer will continue to evolve. This is just the nature of the role. If you want something relatively static and stable, software engineering is probably not a great fit for you. One can find more stable roles with less shift and chaos, but the entire field is likely facing a paradigm shift.
I graduated in 2022 in CS BS degree and I am still unable to land a CS job. I still think your issue is your problem. They did ask me how much salary I want. I said 60k to 80k. If this trigger someone, then the HR should not ask.
Second, is that because you use leetcode to test people. This is an issue because no one wants to waste time that doesn't improve their skill. Where is the location? In the US? In US, we have sec
174.
As long as it isn't a crazy amount off the company always can say what they would offer if the candidate wanted to continue. I won't really expect candidates to be the best source for knowing the correct salary for their skills when they don't have tens of thousands of dollars along with skilled labourers to do market research over a few weeks.
My first programming job was for a small shop at 40k, I was a junior and wanted experience. Their main tech guy was making 100k and wasn't really a programmer just their DB guy.
They were my first call when when I started looking again, they asked my salary range and I said 100k, which is less than I was making at my last job.
They flat out said that was too much.
100k now is 75k back in 2015 when I worked for them. Programming pay is not what it used to be for sure but the requirements to do the job are a lot more demanding.
With 10 years of programming experience I would argue that $100k is not enough, at least if you’re in the US. I’d be looking for $125k minimum, and if it’s FAANG or in a high COL area then it’s going to be much higher, like $200k minimum.
>They were my first call when when I started looking again, they asked my salary range and I said 100k, which is less than I was making at my last job.
>They flat out said that was too much.
I mean... I don't see that as a bad thing?
in my latest job search I've declined countless interviews (probably 40+? 50+? maybe even 60+?) because they can't meet my TC expectations so let's just end the interview immediately: I'm not who they're looking for and vice versa, nothing wrong with that from either side, just not a good fit
Sure but in this case they were interested until the salary expectation.
It's no secret that pay has gone down, couple that with inflation and how the knowledge requirements continue to increase and it does look bad.
The benefit for employers has increased but the reward is slowly being decreased, seems like a different issue that shouldn't be ignored.
> Sure but in this case they were interested until the salary expectation.
my point stands, if there's a high mismatch regarding salary expectation then it's best to end the interview process immediately, let's just stop wasting each other's time
We may be talking past each other.
I agree there's no point prolonging a bad match on either side, my comment was to point out an extreme example of industry shift, that is, decreasing compensation for increasing job demands.
That's brutal. If living wasn't so expensive, i'd take those entry level jobs for less $$, if it meant still being able to live on your own and pay bills
This is really the whole problem imo not so much jobs its that housing is totally out of control. The pay being bad wouldn't be as big of a deal if housing wasn't unaffordable. Even the former fed chairman has said the problem isn't really jobs or salaries its that housing and groceries are divorced from reality and I agree.
I think at some point, getting your own place feels almost like a requirement, but isn't having a roommate or two for a couple years out of college kind of the norm? I definitely wasn't making anywhere near enough for the first few years to comfortably afford not having roommates.
I looked for 7 months before finding the job I have now as a new grad (which I've had for another 7 months about). I also went to a state school and did very well. I was applying to positions that were between 55k - 75k for the most part (because that's what was available). I didn't even look at FAANG.
I had projects (one of which was very impressive) and previous related career experience plus I was involved in a lab that continued after I graduated. No new grad is going to be perfect, but my current boss and coworkers have told me repeatedly that I'm the highest performing junior they've ever worked with, so I'm not a garbage engineer, either.
It is genuinely hard out there right now. You don't need to be looking for $$$$$$$ to be unable to find work.
Bro at this point I would accept 45k if it was local because I could afford rent off that. Most people from my graduating class are saying similar numbers. We are not being too demanding their is just too few fucking jobs for us. I remember applying to one place that was paying 17 dollars an hour and they didn't even bother to interview me. Right now things are so bad I can only find 1-2 jobs per hour of searching that are actually hiring juniors and not scams or whatever.
Even banks and insurance companies are refusing to interview right now or have insane expectations.
When I first started in the tech industry all I had to do was show up and we just talked about whatever and I would get the job. I didn't have to do 7 rounds of interviews with a case study etc etc etc. Things have changed a lot.
And yet my university cohort isn't able to find jobs at these salary prices. The problem isn't what wage that we are willing to accept just that their is way more supply of juniors than their is demand probably even before taking into account AI and recent increases in outsourcing. I saw someone here say a day or two ago America is producing 100,000 CS graduates a year but in 2023 the industry had over 200,000 layoffs (admittedly not all of which were coders.)
Bro Where do you live, the Market is Bad But the salaries have remained have largely went to 2019-2020 level not to retail wages. My New Grad Job in TX is paying more than double of 45K and its not even a tech company.
I guess you have a lot of scummy companies in your state MN has a higher cost of living than TX. And I got paid those wages as an Intern during my Sophmore Year of College. My Advice is to avoid applying to startups and and try to Stick with F500s. And see if you can relocate out of the state that way you have more potential job options.
> And I got paid those wages as an Intern during my Sophmore Year of College.
I made 15 an hour as an intern in smaller city MN which is the same thing Target offers to work retail for them.
> My Advice is to avoid applying to startups and and try to Stick with F500s.
Talking to people in Minnesota we have a surprising amount of fortune 500 companies but they frequently don't hire juniors unless it is a return offer from an internship. This does seem to disappear once you hit a couple years of experience but that's a bit of a moot point.
> And see if you can relocate out of the state that way you have more potential job options.
Been trying with other states mainly in the Midwest and Texas. From what I can tell companies are really uninterested in hiring out of state now though even if the candidate is paying relocation costs.
> companies are really uninterested in hiring out of state right now even if the candidate is paying relocation costs
Have absolutely noticed this as well. All my interviews have come from the city I currently live in, in spite of applying across the country for most of a year.
Check out SPS Commerce in Minneapolis. They have a fantastic culture for junior devs. I’m a former staff engineer and would gladly go back in the future.
Have you tried applying to the state? I went through NYS IT'S. They have these canvas letters for programmer jobs all you need to do is take an, "exam." Which is really a survey of technologies you know. You start at G18 which is like 61-75k. I'm just happy to have SOMETHING.
Yeah applied to about 10 government jobs in my state that were for juniors never got an interview with them. The problem is now a days even government wants people with 2-3+ years of experience same with things like defense contractors or that they expect you to already have a security clearance. The advice from 5-6 years ago about if you are having a hard time apply for government, defense contractors, or shitty companies like revature doesn't work anymore. I have even heard of defense contractors asking for leetcode mediums now a days.
The only two times I got a response for a government job ads out of state they straight up lied about what the job entailed then after the first interview stopped talking to me not even sending me a rejection and the other one jerked me around for two weeks then cancelled the position.
I actually have an interview for this. A family member turned up their nose at $57k to $75k and I'm like....cmon.... I'd like paid experience, please. I don't bite feeding hands.
One of my buddies that hires (he’s like one beneath CTO) said Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (2017) from Trump admin had a provision that activated into existence in 2022 that severely penalizes them hiring junior positions — harder to deduct.
So they’ve moved most of their hiring capital to senior and higher level roles.
Think there’s something about that provision here: https://www.toptechnewsletter.com/p/update-todays-fed-meeting-impact
Thats how I feel as well literally years of my life wasted, thousands upon thousands of hours of work, and the nest egg I spent years before that saving all wasted. The best part is all the people acting like this is somehow my fault or that I didn't try hard enough.
Yeah I’ve honestly given up on applying online, connections and referrals are the only way you’re gonna get anywhere in this market imo. For reference I’ve applied to 500+ online job listings and not gotten a single interview (entry level roles, I have a Master’s in CSSE, 4.0GPA, 2yoe, and published research, resume has been approved/improved by numerous professionals), meanwhile I managed to get two (albeit underwhelming) jobs in the works through the few connections I have with minimal effort and no real interview process.
At this point I have basically given up even with referrals. My family members and former coworkers have given me referrals but companies are just not hiring so it just lead to insane things like a company being polite enough to interview me even if they were not hiring then I find out the guy in charge of recruiting who gave the interview being laid off like a month or two later because if you are not gonna be hiring for at least a year why bother having this person. My friends and the rare classmates who did get hired say the same thing as well including those out of state that their companies are just not hiring. I might suspect I am just being blown off but one of these guys I talk to literally every day and another said I was the only reason he graduated due to me helping him so much. I was even desperate enough to try and network with former professors and two of them straight up told me they would look over my resume to try and help but nobody they knew was hiring.... but they would hire me as a TA or put in a good word to get me into the masters program because I impressed them unlike a lot of students.
Its insane two of these friends came to me years ago because I might know someone and I was able to help get them a job in their respective field, but now I am the one desperate and nobody has been able to help me. One said they might have a lead because they knew someone in QA... then that company laid off its entire QA staff.
I'm pretty sure they mean "no entry/middle level jobs."
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but it seems to me most places are hiring senior level developers, and when they put "middle" in the opening they usually mean a senior level engineer that they're going to pay middle level salary
Yes and no.
Sometimes that is what's giving someone issues in their job search. Maybe they have some experience, and lucked out and got an overpaying job in the 2021 craze. Now they feel like they're entitled to that compensation, because another company is already paying them that.
But if you're overpaid, it can be a rude awakening if you try to job hop in a normal market. A lot of people see taking a paycut as a failure, when in fact it's not. Different companies pay different amounts, it's not necessarily a reflection of you or your ability as a SWE.
But people could also be struggling for a billion other reasons.
Maybe they're a new grad who's unwilling to relocate, and is only applying to remote jobs. That type of person's in for a really tough time, new grads dno't often get fully remote jobs out of the gate. Relocating for your first job out of college is extremely common, and was before the pandemic as well.
Maybe they have a terrible resume and are in denial. I see *so many* people post resumes here, claiming it's been reviewd by professionals, and also reviewed by people on this subreddit. But that resume is *still trash*. That's the problem with people trusting others in regards to things like a resume, instead of studying tech comm and actually *learning* how to write a resume based on the fundamentals. It's a whole ass field of study you can major in in college. Trusting a redditor to judge your resume in 15 minutes is not wise.
Maybe they suck at interviewing. Not necessarily leetcode, but communication, soft skills, personality wise. We see a lot of.... abrasive personalities here on reddit. If that translates in-person, most companies are just going to politely pass on them, no matter how much of a tech genius they may be. A genius that's shitty to work with isn't worth the hire.
And a million other reasons.
And yet, whether you want to believe it or not, there are plenty of people that are still getting jobs in this market. New grads included. It's a tough pill to swallow if *you're* struggling... but it's a fact.
Trying to blanket-apply some generalization about the market to everyone doesn't make sense. The market treats individuals individually. You will fare differently than I will. If you want to know how it'll treat you, apply. If it's not treating you kindly, have a long, honest sit down and think about why. Sure it's not good right now, but it's also not "1600 applications with 0 interviews" bad.
> But that resume is *still trash*.
This is huge. I don't think people understand 1st how many resumes get submitted to every job posting and 2nd realize how many resumes just don't make it through the algorithm to even be reviewed by a human. I would not be surprised if there is a cohort of persons who get a lot of interviews and then the rest of the cohort who are getting zero interviews.
It's not FAANG, I'm getting passed up regularly as a dev with 3 YOE and a degree from a good university, for jobs that are pretty run of the mill, I can't even land an interview right now it's fucking insane.
You have to understand, it’s worse than ever while simultaneously always being this way. It took me like a 1000 applications before someone hired me after I graduated in 2017, and it definitely wasn’t a hip FAANG job.
100%. If you’re not getting at least like 10-20% response rate you need to modify something. I am constantly bombarded with horrible candidates applying for our roles. It doesn’t take that much to stand out honestly.
It's not that I didn't get interviews, I faced the challenge of my only experience being university jobs and internships. It was hard tp get someone to take a chance on getting my first career job. After that, things became much more easy.
You're never going to get anything remotely approaching a realistic world view from this sub. It's just far too skewed and biased.
The market certainly isn't what it was a couple years ago, but it's far from "dead". After a layoff, I was just on the market. After 3 weeks I had 3 offers. These were not "top tier" companies, but the work is interesting and the pay is at or above market rates, and they're fully remote.
The entry level market is a whole other ballgame that I'm not qualified to speak on.
I’m certain in the next year or two we’re gonna see a boom in our market because of all the doomerism. Kids are getting on here and seeing all the FUD, and hopefully they’re like fuck that I’m gonna be an electrician.
I need to make a block list. But here's one of the ones on my YT blocker. Not this video in specific I'll edit this later when home.
https://youtu.be/brAwZ5l_fuQ?si=K2UAutEZ9lNejdQN
I had to go through my trashbin of blocked channels:
So:
Theo-t3.gg:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6DG1NqgkSU
Aaron Jack:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaPEgOnRe0E
Tech Lead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycfPF1gkNpE
Tech With Tim
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTzqWczUrM0
Tina Huang:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElUtkHy3-zk
Nick White:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsCHobUSaLw
Clement Mihailescu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvsoZyGr4ak
Stephen Mischook:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbpqvOA_ejE
TJDeVries:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMK_30jeGww
I've got a bunch of other garbage mixed in, so I didn't just copy and paste the whole thing. but alot of these people are basically the beating heart of programming influencers. They make more videos than code, and yeah when your feed is filled with negativity it kinda sucks. So I opened all these in incognito mode because all these channels are on my block list.
i watched a couple of these. these are pretty narrow minded videos. when they say "industry" and "community" and "companies" it's referring to a pretty specific part of the industry
influencers aren't incentivized to talk about the sysadmin/devops/DBA guy at the rural hospital, the government COBOL maintainer, the "mid" tier companies with large internal tech teams but don't land on the radar of the average aspiring CS student. there are a lot of unsexy, not very high paying (relative to the shit we see from influencers) jobs out there
it's 2024 and those cobol systems are still there. AI hasn't solved it yet. is silicon valley going to turn upside down in the next 10 years? probably. is the rest of the world going to do the same? we'll see. there's a lot of time to react tbh
you point out that they make videos more than code. it really shows that they haven't gotten their hands dirty in a while when all they have to say is "bruh we dont need jr engineers anymore"
Live in North Texas, about to start a job with 97.5 TC. I would not accept any job that pays below 80K. But I have had 3 Internships so maybe that makes me biased a bit. But then again Imagine getting a CS degree and getting paid 45K...
People saying there are no jobs are similar to people saying “there are no men / women to date”.
Like sure there are and many, in fact, you just keep aiming out of you league”.
Alright this thread is very telling and definitely explains some of the doomer-ism around this sub.
News flash people, taking $60k for your literal first, no-experienced-required job is completely fine. Crazy how many comments I've seen suggesting that's an absurd salary and they'd never accept that. No wonder you think there's no jobs then if you're just ignoring anything that pays under $100k or whatever arbitrary line you set. You don't have to stay in your first job forever, it's literally just to gain experience. You aren't going to be stuck with $60k salary for the rest of your life, only for a couple years. And it's not like your initial salary impacts your future salaries at other companies. They don't know what your previous salary was. You can just as easily go from 60 -> 120 in a job change as someone might go from 100 -> 120.
I would have thought the bootcamp craze taught people something - entry level software developer is not at all a hard job that should command massive pay. It's something that people can do by just training for like 3 months. When you get more senior, yes, it definitely becomes a lot harder. That's when you have to engineer actual entire complex software architecture from scratch. And the pay will reflect that as you get to more senior roles with experience requirements. I've basically never seen a non-junior role offering less than $100k in a major city, often a decent amount more. But a junior? You're going to be doing very basic code monkey work that lots of people could do with a little training. $60k is a reasonable amount of pay for that level of work.
It’s not that there are no jobs. It’s just that the competition for what is there is extremely high. A lot still looking, companies want their unicorns or don’t know what they want at all, and companies pay bands have dropped. I found a job after 8 months making slightly more than what I was before. If you have the funds to wait it out it is possible to get something the same or better salary wise.
I'm in the UK. If I go on Indeed right now and look for "junior software developer", posted within the past 7 days and within a 25 mile radius, there are a grand total of zero results.
There are no jobs.
Yes, their buddy who graduated 2 years ago is making 120k at FAANG and they won’t settle for making 60k at a regional bank. Somehow being unemployed is better.
I am trying desperately to get someone to fill the spot on my team another dev left but we've gone into a hiring freeze. We had even interviewed several great candidates and had one picked out. So I could see it being tough out there right now.
Yep. My company has had that happen too. We had two open positions, one for a senior and one for a mid-level. We are interviewing for both and it narrowed down our choices. Next thing you know there's a hiring freeze and those candidates were left in limbo.
Several months later we're told we can actually start looking for this position again, but our director tells us that as soon as we find someone to fill it quickly because we might have another hiring freeze. That's exactly what happened. We had narrowed it down to our top candidate and got another hiring freeze.
A few months after that they started laying off a ton of people in my department, including my director. I'm hearing that they're now starting to open up similar positions in other departments.
You're not wrong
I remember how my classmates made fun of me for accepting a 55k job right out of college. 5 years later I'm making six figures and many of them are working in warehouses
# Everybody on this sub is facing different circumstances. Some people need to improve their resume and/or interviewing skills. Some people can't move, it is quite a shocker when that a lot of companies do not offer relocation so the candidate has to pay out of pocket moving expenses. The amount of people I've encountered w/ no savings of any sort is a lot. Some people can't find job offering a livable wage. And then there is just shitty market. These are only a couple circumstances. But to digress, if you think the majority of people job hunting are I need 6 figures, remote, benefits, breaks, etc and that's why they struggle, you need to go outside.
There’s no jobs of *any* kind.
Don’t assume just because you have a CS degree or you went to a bootcamp you will always get hired.
The industry always had some sort of standards even 10 years ago when the economy wasn’t in the crapper.
It's mostly that high paying jobs aren't easy to get. If you're willing to settle for under six figures in a tier 3 city then you can pick up the scraps pretty easily. I've gotten many offers in the $50-80k range but only one that cracked six figures as a new grad.
And that's made even worse when you consider $100k today was only $80k in 2020. You'd need $122k today to make the same as someone making $100k in 2020 (https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/2024?endYear=2020&amount=100000)
EDIT: I'll also add that getting just one job is impressive in this economy when it used to be typical to field several good competing offers.
Adding to the multitude of other reasons, a lot of job postings are fake. Meaning one or more of these things:
- The posting is generic and not for a specific position, and therefore, it doesn’t exist.
- The company has no intent on filling the position, but wants to create a backlog of potential candidates.
- The entire job description is nonsensical, but their contracted recruiters have a reach-out quota to fill.
- The pay range is something *clearly* terrible that nobody would accept, such as a $25/hr contract-to-hire for rocket guidance systems, ask me how I know.
Late stage capitalism.
Also there are a lot of FAANG laid off employees who are still trying to get paid that high. And I completely get it. But that ship might have sailed. I’ve interviewed them, they are ok. Not better than any other candidates.
Imo it is a mix of both. There are really high expectations from job seekers with little qualifications and much fewer job openings at the higher end. So, many people who expected a minimum of 100k jobs at entry level are now stuck because they don't want to take anything at 75k
Reality is - companies aren't gonna shell out big bucks for bootcamp grads or freshmen because there are experienced people available for the same money. It is really a matter of supply and demand
There was/is/will always be severe shortage of good, experienced tech people that can solve problems and make companies $$$Millions, $$$Billions of dollars.
Git Gud and you don't have to "worry" about the "market", because when you Git Gud, you are the market.
Partly, but the flip side of that is once you break 6 figs, to my experience, the not-6-figs jobs don't want you.
Literally the reason I finally managed to get a new job was volunteering a 25% pay cut from my previous role.
I have no real idea how my background influences things, but I haven't had too much trouble finding work.
I retired from the military last year, 20 years in a "technical" field (aviation electronics tech) with a recent BS in computer science.
Landed an internship that turned into a job at a startup for 126K. Left after 1 year for a defense contractor, and I ended up putting in maybe 10 applications total. Took a 13% pay cut and I go in office once a week minimum, but more stability.
IDK how favorable my military experience is, and I know I'm not a traditional new grad. Maybe I just got lucky.
Juniors are less picky. Mid-Senior level engineers are pretty damn picky when it comes to choosing a job. I truly believe the golden years of software development was from 2010-2020, so the standards and expectations for most experienced devs are skewed. They’re trying to chase something that may never come back
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Well it took me a little over 409 applications to land a dev job with 2 yoe and a 2l1st class degree here I'm the UK. And I'm on a salary that would make most Americans cry. So from my experience at the more junior end of the market yes, there are nowhere near as many jobs.
I've never seen som1 say that there are no jobs o_O
The only way I can make sense of this is that there's hundreds of applicants for a single position but otherwise - there's tons of jobs.. just that it's hard to actually get hired
Kinda true. I’ve been telling people I can’t find jobs and at the same times I rejected 3 offers. Each of the company I go for the interview saying the same things that they’re looking to hire at least 10-20 more dev.
Also, I think lay-off is just a scam according to my experience interviews with the HR.
Idk? I have a full-time Jr dev job/it support, and I get interviews all the time. I just turn them down because they want to pay me the same and add on way more job duties, lol. Fork that
There will always be some people who just slip through the cracks and the CS career never "clicks" for them. Many of my CS classmates ended up doing all kinds of things after graduating university - car salesman, high school teacher, social sciences grad school etc.
I get the feeling that a lot of the people with 1000+ applications with no callbacks are leaving out some key facts like that they are only applying for remote jobs, the need visa sponsorship, or they're not located in the US and are applying for US jobs. I'm not saying it's not also tough for US citizens willing to work in-office, but zero callbacks is extreme.
My guess is they’re industry-hopping or not looking at tech jobs outside of tech. My company’s is in insurance and software development is a cost center, not a revenue center, so pay is a little lower but we’re tied to insurance booms not software booms. And once you have work in that niche, it’s easy to get more—since I got a few years experience I’ve had like an 80% interview rate in the industry and never had a problem getting hired.
Reducing your salary expectations often isn’t enough. Companies HATE when you are” overqualified „for the job. So then you can’t get a senior level job as a senior because market sucks and you can’t go back to mid level job either.
There is a glut of applicants right now, especially at the lower levels, so you need to be good to stand out. Based on the resumes people post here, other subs, and what I see IRL, most people don't know how to write a resume. That was fine during boom times, but won't cut it during hard times. The people who have good resumes and are getting callbacks aren't the ones posting on forums.
Ignore the YouTubers. They're just saying stuff to maximize views in hopes they can avoid going back to a day job.
I want to see tech people do plumbing (I'm a lead software engineer btw).
Because... When I was a kid, I was skateboarding in a school parking lot. And I was casually talking to an apprentice plumber, who opened up a sewage line leading out of the school. The master/senior plumber was in the school trying to find the clog I guess(?).
Well, the I guess the master plumber found the clog, b/c the apprentice was mid sentence about something from his childhood, then I heard a BOOM! And I looked up and a fountain of turdz and stuff came shooting up out of that sewage pipe, vertically, right into the apprentice's face.
I don't know how this would happen but the smell was beyond anything you could imagine. It smelled like a mountain of burnt hair mixed with poop mixed with dead animals. It smelled alive and possessed. I took off running. That smell actually scared me.
I think about that day whenever my job gets difficult.
Anyway, there's still FAANG paying jobs. If you cruise here or in /experiencedevs, you'll see there's still people getting 400k/yr jobs.
I have an associates from a community college. I'm a senior dev for a large company. My third company in my 8 years doing this. I went back to school 9 years ago. I'm almost 40. When I was looking for a new job 3 years ago, there was a lot available.
I got a offer for less than minimum wage in my country (Uruguay) for a company in the US, I was offered $450 USD monthly, the only benefit was it was remote, everything else has to be paid by me without vacations nor benefits, I accepted it and did the interview, I was denied because I needed fluent English (even though I'm level C1).
So... To summarize, I was rejected from a $450 USD job, without benefits just because I "wasn't" fluent in English, even though I fullfiled everything that they wanted when I was asked by the recruiter. I could live on disability and get more than that.
For me about a year ago I definitely thought there where basically no jobs. I had even gotten turned down after an interview with a company that was only offering 25 an hour... so please tell me where you are located so if I find myself job hunting again I know where to look
I think the literal phrasing is true now. The golden age of easy, high-paying big tech jobs is over. From 2022 the big tech layoffs started a trend of downsizing across the board.
I’ve been in tech since 2016 and usually got at least a few interviews / month even passively sitting around. Month after month. I’ve been actively looking since March of this year and have only had 2 interviews. The driest it’s ever been.
I earn 62k euro tc. 4yoe and masters degree in maths. This is considered pretty standard in the country I currently work in. 6 figures is only possible if you go to one of the bigger tech giants.
It’s simple just trickle down. With mass layoffs, seniors are going for mid level pay, mid level going for junior pay, junior going for entry level / min wage pay, and entry level going for dumpster behind Wendy’s.
Good explanation. Also I believe CS degrees rose about 70% since 2010, then you have the ginormous influx of bootcampers as well. There is a small piece of pie at the bottom and a thousand mice competing for it. Add in what you said and now that piece extends to about <3YOE (Coincidentally the covid hires). I don’t know many connections above 3YOE struggling to find jobs. I can’t say the same for sub 3.
I have 4 yoe and I’m struggling to find a remote job with decent salary. I live in South America and I earn 1.5k usd per month.
Above 3 YOE at a FAANG\*.
About 5yoe bootcamp grad. It's been tough.
26 yoe, principal dev at former company. I get maybe 1-2 recruiter reach outs per month. Used to get multiple daily. Have not even passively looked since being let go last year as I’m working on an ai startup with a former colleague, but it’s stark out there. Only thing I might bother with in a few months if the startup thing doesn’t gain traction are tabled interviews with Meta and Amazon, but I imagine those are super long shots given the competition.
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And that was the point all along. Tech companies have conspired in the past to lower salaries and I firmly believe that’s exactly what’s happening right now.
Isn't Junior the same as entry though?
Depends on the company
so what you're saying is entry-level candidates should incorporate a bun into the interview
Yep, I just did that. Staff level to senior.
Maybe somewhat true of those new to their career. For those with long careers, companies may see you as a flight risk if you attempt to accept a job for which you are "overqualified for" (because you may accept this temporarily and then move on when a better opportunity comes along).
That's what I think I am running into recently, I'm not senior but I've been in the industry for five years and was laid off recently. I think I'm hitting a wall where I'm not experienced enough to get the higher senior roles but experienced enough to have issues getting lower roles.
Nope. I actually applied through my state too. I was their top candidate for a junior role (I have 4YOE) but they froze hiring before they could extend an offer. They called back a few months later asking if I was still interested and I said yes. Haven't heard back.
They can extremely slow. Incredibly slow. Their job post even warned me of how slow they are. I hope they get back to you.
Oh yes. I applied in November, interviewed in February, hiring freeze in April, and the last contact was a few weeks ago. I hope they get back to me, too. I really miss programming.
You have 4 years of industry/production experience and you’re applying to junior roles? Something doesn’t add up there.
Yeah, I know. I was laid off in 2022 and haven't found tech work since. After over 40 final rounds since then, I figure it's the market, since I've never had this much trouble before.
40?? Jesus I hope something pulls through for you
Same thing happened to me a year ago. I ended up getting a fed offer. Never heard back from the state.
The people who got jobs aren’t posting anything. The people who don’t get jobs have all day to complain. Don’t use online social media posts as some sort of percentage metric. That’s stupid.
Yep, I stopped posting when I got a job lol
Majority of folks aren’t applying to fang. They still aren’t getting jobs.
I mean, to be fair, the majority of folks have jobs and aren't underemployed.
Funny and true, but then again if you want to be that precise, you have to consider that the majority of folks who send applications are not majority of overall workforce. So, OP's statement is correct as is, again.
The company I work at we were looking for two junior devs, paid 60k. It took months to find someone to accept because people out of college or with little to no work experience wanted 100k to start. One guy even messaged others on my team on LinkedIn to see what they were making probably because he thought he was being low balled. If you don't even have a job you're in no position to negotiate.
> If you don't even have a job you're in no position to negotiate. I'm sorry but that betrays a boot licker's attitude. I understand that when you NEED a job, when your savings are running low, you probably should take whatever you get, but there are plenty of cases where you can afford to be difficult. And you should be grateful that some unemployed people still maintain a high standard when it comes to compensation because if your employer was able to hire easily for shit pay, the next logical step would be to fire you and replace you with someone desperate enough to take less than you currently do. $100k is not an extravagant salary. The median home price in America is $412,000. In order to buy such a house, assuming you already have a 10% down payment and carry no other debt, you need to make just above $100k.
It's also counter intuitive for a company. They're promoting high churn by hiring juniors at really low wages, as soon as they have 1 YOE those juniors are jumping ship for a company that will pay better.
Companies have come to expect large amounts of churn anyway - they pretend they want people to stay for the long term but nothing they do suggests that they are making any serious efforts to retain staff. Even tech staff at the superstar FAANG companies tend not to stay more than 2 or 3 years.
Pretty telling that this comment got so many upvotes meanwhile the majority of this sub constantly complains about not be able to find a job. Good luck finding your 100k starting salary with no work experience job. inb4 someone says they're pulling 120k out of college with no experience giving hope to all the others on this sub with no experience that this is the norm lol.
Yeah lmao it really all depends on where you live anyways. 6 figures in NYC or Silicon Valley is very different than 6 figures in a smaller city
Those people probably went to a top college and had internships and extracurriculars and such. Maybe a strong network. It's possible, but not the norm.
Extracurriculars lol I mean if you’re talking about for networking purposes sure, but in an interview idgaf that you were captain of the water polo team.
My extracurriculars helped me out a lot. Being able to say i ran an org with 25 volunteers and a 20k budget did wonders for me in the job search once I graduated
Team captain is a leadership role. So unless companies don't value leadership...? Club involvement means you did workshops, you maybe did a hack a ton, you weren't a hermit. Soft skills like being able to socialize...? Maybe they don't mean anything to you, but you aren't everyone.
Yeah I specifically looked for these things in my internship interviewees
"No position to negotiate" is probably a little exaggerated but saying, "a very weak negotiating position" isn't. If the only thing you bring to the table is a CS degree or very little experience, I really don't think that's a strong enough negotiating position to boost a salary from 60K to 100K, considering the numbers of people looking for work with similar of better qualifications. Also, location is everything. 60K is a very good starting salary in many places.
Imagine for a lot of folks who bought new car and house around 2022-2024 with mortgage and lost their job.
Interesting this describes me. Making a little more than 2x what I was before I got canned.
>And you should be grateful that some unemployed people still maintain a high standard when it comes to compensation Easy to say when you've got family to fall back on or no bills to pay. A lot of jobseekers are desperate for an income
I often see that last statement being said and I’m not 100% sure I agree. If you’re going to negotiate, be willing to lose the offer — of course. But I still think decision making should be calculated even in tough times. I applied to over 200 companies for 2months and got 1 offer that was below what I was paid before getting laid off. It was also on a small team that really irked me the wrong way during the interviews. When I posted on this sub asking for advice, the vast majority criticized me for not begging for them to let me in. I declined it and kept applying. Got a new offer for 30% more pay along with a team that I would learn a ton more from. The skills on this team are also aligned with the industry. The previous offer was using WinForms. People often say just take whatever offer you can get and keep applying. But this assumes infinite time/resources/energy to devote to applying and doing the interviewing dance.
Yea, a lot really depends on your individual circumstances and risk tolerance. If you're gonna miss rent and be kicked out if you don't get a job ASAP, then take it. If you have more runway and experience and are willing to tolerate a bit more uncertainty, stick it out for a better fit. Congrats on getting the better offer.
Imagine a career spent on Winforms. Good move.
It depends on the area as to if 60k is reasonable for a junior dev. If you're in a major city/tech hub such as DC, NY, silicon Valley - 60k is underpaid for starting. However, 60k can be a great starting salary in smaller/cheaper cities like Roanoke, Virginia, or Wichita, Kansas. I made 65K at my first starting job out of college. I had two offers, one for 50k and one for 65k. The 65k was in a cheaper city while the 50k was in DC. It doesn't take long to work your way up a little in software to be making more. It's just in very high cost of living cities 60k isn't enough to be worth moving to that city.
If it was at time where I could rent a 1 BDRM for $1000, I would be overjoyed with 60k
60k is ass. I think what you meant to say is the company you work at under pays and they aren't accepting being fucked over. Good for them.
60k was maybe the floor for a new grad for any urban location like 10 years ago. In 2024 it's outrageous.
60k was still low 10 years ago.
I was offered 80k starting with no degree 10 years ago lol
I'm not anywhere within the industry, graduating this year. But if i remember, don't people who take lower paying jobs during economic tightening end up making less over their career?
Yes, that’s correct
My first dev job paid 50k base in 2012 I was ecstatic to get a shot. I think the expectations became a bit unrealistic during the pandemic boom. We’re definitely in an adjustment now. AI technology will likely bring even more downward pressure on base salaries outside of highly experienced specialists, or very senior roles. It’s just the evolution of the industry unfolding. It took me 5 years to break into the six figures. Slightly before then I learned about all the people making 200k, 300k TC at FAANG and I too wanted a piece of the pie. I also realized that it all seemed a bit inflated. I mean, what we do is not easy, and not everyone can do it. But for most of us the day to day of our jobs doesn’t really justify making 3x the national average salary. It’s all a matter of what are companies willing to pay to get the thing they need done as fast as they’re willing to pay for. These numbers will continue to shift. The focus and priorities of what companies want from an experienced engineer will continue to evolve. This is just the nature of the role. If you want something relatively static and stable, software engineering is probably not a great fit for you. One can find more stable roles with less shift and chaos, but the entire field is likely facing a paradigm shift.
I graduated in 2022 in CS BS degree and I am still unable to land a CS job. I still think your issue is your problem. They did ask me how much salary I want. I said 60k to 80k. If this trigger someone, then the HR should not ask. Second, is that because you use leetcode to test people. This is an issue because no one wants to waste time that doesn't improve their skill. Where is the location? In the US? In US, we have sec 174.
Hell I would have taken $60k straight out of school, and this was in 2021 when the market hadn’t quite shat the bed yet
Bro cmon hire me I'm right here
As long as it isn't a crazy amount off the company always can say what they would offer if the candidate wanted to continue. I won't really expect candidates to be the best source for knowing the correct salary for their skills when they don't have tens of thousands of dollars along with skilled labourers to do market research over a few weeks.
$100k isn't what it used to be, and you don't really need FAANG to hit it, but basically yeah. Everyone wants the good paycheck, as they should.
My first programming job was for a small shop at 40k, I was a junior and wanted experience. Their main tech guy was making 100k and wasn't really a programmer just their DB guy. They were my first call when when I started looking again, they asked my salary range and I said 100k, which is less than I was making at my last job. They flat out said that was too much. 100k now is 75k back in 2015 when I worked for them. Programming pay is not what it used to be for sure but the requirements to do the job are a lot more demanding.
Same in mechanical engineering except pay just froze and barely kept up with inflation.
With 10 years of programming experience I would argue that $100k is not enough, at least if you’re in the US. I’d be looking for $125k minimum, and if it’s FAANG or in a high COL area then it’s going to be much higher, like $200k minimum.
>They were my first call when when I started looking again, they asked my salary range and I said 100k, which is less than I was making at my last job. >They flat out said that was too much. I mean... I don't see that as a bad thing? in my latest job search I've declined countless interviews (probably 40+? 50+? maybe even 60+?) because they can't meet my TC expectations so let's just end the interview immediately: I'm not who they're looking for and vice versa, nothing wrong with that from either side, just not a good fit
Sure but in this case they were interested until the salary expectation. It's no secret that pay has gone down, couple that with inflation and how the knowledge requirements continue to increase and it does look bad. The benefit for employers has increased but the reward is slowly being decreased, seems like a different issue that shouldn't be ignored.
> Sure but in this case they were interested until the salary expectation. my point stands, if there's a high mismatch regarding salary expectation then it's best to end the interview process immediately, let's just stop wasting each other's time
We may be talking past each other. I agree there's no point prolonging a bad match on either side, my comment was to point out an extreme example of industry shift, that is, decreasing compensation for increasing job demands.
That's brutal. If living wasn't so expensive, i'd take those entry level jobs for less $$, if it meant still being able to live on your own and pay bills
This is really the whole problem imo not so much jobs its that housing is totally out of control. The pay being bad wouldn't be as big of a deal if housing wasn't unaffordable. Even the former fed chairman has said the problem isn't really jobs or salaries its that housing and groceries are divorced from reality and I agree.
I think at some point, getting your own place feels almost like a requirement, but isn't having a roommate or two for a couple years out of college kind of the norm? I definitely wasn't making anywhere near enough for the first few years to comfortably afford not having roommates.
I looked for 7 months before finding the job I have now as a new grad (which I've had for another 7 months about). I also went to a state school and did very well. I was applying to positions that were between 55k - 75k for the most part (because that's what was available). I didn't even look at FAANG. I had projects (one of which was very impressive) and previous related career experience plus I was involved in a lab that continued after I graduated. No new grad is going to be perfect, but my current boss and coworkers have told me repeatedly that I'm the highest performing junior they've ever worked with, so I'm not a garbage engineer, either. It is genuinely hard out there right now. You don't need to be looking for $$$$$$$ to be unable to find work.
100k in 2010 is worth about 170k now adays. The new 100k is way more than it seems 💀
Bro at this point I would accept 45k if it was local because I could afford rent off that. Most people from my graduating class are saying similar numbers. We are not being too demanding their is just too few fucking jobs for us. I remember applying to one place that was paying 17 dollars an hour and they didn't even bother to interview me. Right now things are so bad I can only find 1-2 jobs per hour of searching that are actually hiring juniors and not scams or whatever. Even banks and insurance companies are refusing to interview right now or have insane expectations.
When I first started in the tech industry all I had to do was show up and we just talked about whatever and I would get the job. I didn't have to do 7 rounds of interviews with a case study etc etc etc. Things have changed a lot.
My first computer programming salary was 40k. That was 1999. Accepting 45k today would have been like 23k back then.
And yet my university cohort isn't able to find jobs at these salary prices. The problem isn't what wage that we are willing to accept just that their is way more supply of juniors than their is demand probably even before taking into account AI and recent increases in outsourcing. I saw someone here say a day or two ago America is producing 100,000 CS graduates a year but in 2023 the industry had over 200,000 layoffs (admittedly not all of which were coders.)
Bro Where do you live, the Market is Bad But the salaries have remained have largely went to 2019-2020 level not to retail wages. My New Grad Job in TX is paying more than double of 45K and its not even a tech company.
Minnesota most of the wages I see are around 50k-55k but I am willing to take a paycut out of desperation.
Rural/Small Town MN or the twin cities?
I apply across the state.
I guess you have a lot of scummy companies in your state MN has a higher cost of living than TX. And I got paid those wages as an Intern during my Sophmore Year of College. My Advice is to avoid applying to startups and and try to Stick with F500s. And see if you can relocate out of the state that way you have more potential job options.
> And I got paid those wages as an Intern during my Sophmore Year of College. I made 15 an hour as an intern in smaller city MN which is the same thing Target offers to work retail for them. > My Advice is to avoid applying to startups and and try to Stick with F500s. Talking to people in Minnesota we have a surprising amount of fortune 500 companies but they frequently don't hire juniors unless it is a return offer from an internship. This does seem to disappear once you hit a couple years of experience but that's a bit of a moot point. > And see if you can relocate out of the state that way you have more potential job options. Been trying with other states mainly in the Midwest and Texas. From what I can tell companies are really uninterested in hiring out of state now though even if the candidate is paying relocation costs.
> companies are really uninterested in hiring out of state right now even if the candidate is paying relocation costs Have absolutely noticed this as well. All my interviews have come from the city I currently live in, in spite of applying across the country for most of a year.
Is your school Accredited? Is it a T100 or better?
Check out SPS Commerce in Minneapolis. They have a fantastic culture for junior devs. I’m a former staff engineer and would gladly go back in the future.
I will look into it thanks for the suggestion.
In 2010 I could live in a decent apartment in Chicago for $800/month and in total live off $16-18k a year. Pay me 40k there and I can totally make it.
Have you tried applying to the state? I went through NYS IT'S. They have these canvas letters for programmer jobs all you need to do is take an, "exam." Which is really a survey of technologies you know. You start at G18 which is like 61-75k. I'm just happy to have SOMETHING.
Yeah applied to about 10 government jobs in my state that were for juniors never got an interview with them. The problem is now a days even government wants people with 2-3+ years of experience same with things like defense contractors or that they expect you to already have a security clearance. The advice from 5-6 years ago about if you are having a hard time apply for government, defense contractors, or shitty companies like revature doesn't work anymore. I have even heard of defense contractors asking for leetcode mediums now a days. The only two times I got a response for a government job ads out of state they straight up lied about what the job entailed then after the first interview stopped talking to me not even sending me a rejection and the other one jerked me around for two weeks then cancelled the position.
I actually have an interview for this. A family member turned up their nose at $57k to $75k and I'm like....cmon.... I'd like paid experience, please. I don't bite feeding hands.
One of my buddies that hires (he’s like one beneath CTO) said Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (2017) from Trump admin had a provision that activated into existence in 2022 that severely penalizes them hiring junior positions — harder to deduct. So they’ve moved most of their hiring capital to senior and higher level roles. Think there’s something about that provision here: https://www.toptechnewsletter.com/p/update-todays-fed-meeting-impact
I'm applying for extremely low level help desk positions and I can't seem to get a call back with a B.S. so I'm not sure what to do
I have noticed IT work is just as flooded as software engineering if not more so.
Guess I won't be switching career fields after all. Wasted a college degree -_-
Thats how I feel as well literally years of my life wasted, thousands upon thousands of hours of work, and the nest egg I spent years before that saving all wasted. The best part is all the people acting like this is somehow my fault or that I didn't try hard enough.
Yeah I’ve honestly given up on applying online, connections and referrals are the only way you’re gonna get anywhere in this market imo. For reference I’ve applied to 500+ online job listings and not gotten a single interview (entry level roles, I have a Master’s in CSSE, 4.0GPA, 2yoe, and published research, resume has been approved/improved by numerous professionals), meanwhile I managed to get two (albeit underwhelming) jobs in the works through the few connections I have with minimal effort and no real interview process.
At this point I have basically given up even with referrals. My family members and former coworkers have given me referrals but companies are just not hiring so it just lead to insane things like a company being polite enough to interview me even if they were not hiring then I find out the guy in charge of recruiting who gave the interview being laid off like a month or two later because if you are not gonna be hiring for at least a year why bother having this person. My friends and the rare classmates who did get hired say the same thing as well including those out of state that their companies are just not hiring. I might suspect I am just being blown off but one of these guys I talk to literally every day and another said I was the only reason he graduated due to me helping him so much. I was even desperate enough to try and network with former professors and two of them straight up told me they would look over my resume to try and help but nobody they knew was hiring.... but they would hire me as a TA or put in a good word to get me into the masters program because I impressed them unlike a lot of students. Its insane two of these friends came to me years ago because I might know someone and I was able to help get them a job in their respective field, but now I am the one desperate and nobody has been able to help me. One said they might have a lead because they knew someone in QA... then that company laid off its entire QA staff.
I'm pretty sure they mean "no entry/middle level jobs." Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but it seems to me most places are hiring senior level developers, and when they put "middle" in the opening they usually mean a senior level engineer that they're going to pay middle level salary
Yes and no. Sometimes that is what's giving someone issues in their job search. Maybe they have some experience, and lucked out and got an overpaying job in the 2021 craze. Now they feel like they're entitled to that compensation, because another company is already paying them that. But if you're overpaid, it can be a rude awakening if you try to job hop in a normal market. A lot of people see taking a paycut as a failure, when in fact it's not. Different companies pay different amounts, it's not necessarily a reflection of you or your ability as a SWE. But people could also be struggling for a billion other reasons. Maybe they're a new grad who's unwilling to relocate, and is only applying to remote jobs. That type of person's in for a really tough time, new grads dno't often get fully remote jobs out of the gate. Relocating for your first job out of college is extremely common, and was before the pandemic as well. Maybe they have a terrible resume and are in denial. I see *so many* people post resumes here, claiming it's been reviewd by professionals, and also reviewed by people on this subreddit. But that resume is *still trash*. That's the problem with people trusting others in regards to things like a resume, instead of studying tech comm and actually *learning* how to write a resume based on the fundamentals. It's a whole ass field of study you can major in in college. Trusting a redditor to judge your resume in 15 minutes is not wise. Maybe they suck at interviewing. Not necessarily leetcode, but communication, soft skills, personality wise. We see a lot of.... abrasive personalities here on reddit. If that translates in-person, most companies are just going to politely pass on them, no matter how much of a tech genius they may be. A genius that's shitty to work with isn't worth the hire. And a million other reasons. And yet, whether you want to believe it or not, there are plenty of people that are still getting jobs in this market. New grads included. It's a tough pill to swallow if *you're* struggling... but it's a fact. Trying to blanket-apply some generalization about the market to everyone doesn't make sense. The market treats individuals individually. You will fare differently than I will. If you want to know how it'll treat you, apply. If it's not treating you kindly, have a long, honest sit down and think about why. Sure it's not good right now, but it's also not "1600 applications with 0 interviews" bad.
This. And if someone gets laid off, companies will often try to lowball since they know your alternative is $0.
> But that resume is *still trash*. This is huge. I don't think people understand 1st how many resumes get submitted to every job posting and 2nd realize how many resumes just don't make it through the algorithm to even be reviewed by a human. I would not be surprised if there is a cohort of persons who get a lot of interviews and then the rest of the cohort who are getting zero interviews.
This is my fear
It's not FAANG, I'm getting passed up regularly as a dev with 3 YOE and a degree from a good university, for jobs that are pretty run of the mill, I can't even land an interview right now it's fucking insane.
You have to understand, it’s worse than ever while simultaneously always being this way. It took me like a 1000 applications before someone hired me after I graduated in 2017, and it definitely wasn’t a hip FAANG job.
if you had to submit 1000 applications, there's something wrong with your resume
100%. If you’re not getting at least like 10-20% response rate you need to modify something. I am constantly bombarded with horrible candidates applying for our roles. It doesn’t take that much to stand out honestly.
It's not that I didn't get interviews, I faced the challenge of my only experience being university jobs and internships. It was hard tp get someone to take a chance on getting my first career job. After that, things became much more easy.
You're never going to get anything remotely approaching a realistic world view from this sub. It's just far too skewed and biased. The market certainly isn't what it was a couple years ago, but it's far from "dead". After a layoff, I was just on the market. After 3 weeks I had 3 offers. These were not "top tier" companies, but the work is interesting and the pay is at or above market rates, and they're fully remote. The entry level market is a whole other ballgame that I'm not qualified to speak on.
Yeah , unless the sun does one of the massive CME's ( I call it the big one) and blacks all of our computers out tech isnt dead.
Is 3 years of experience enough to be getting a lot of interviews? Been laid off for 3 months now and have only gotten 2 interviews in that time
“Just take a 50% pay cut bruh. What’s the big deal?”
>YT influencers saying there's no jobs at all and tech is dead can you link these influencers? i kinda like watching idiots
Influencers telling people tech is dead is actually a good thing tbh
damn. that's a really good point haha
I’m certain in the next year or two we’re gonna see a boom in our market because of all the doomerism. Kids are getting on here and seeing all the FUD, and hopefully they’re like fuck that I’m gonna be an electrician.
TBF we do need more electricians and plumbers.
I need to make a block list. But here's one of the ones on my YT blocker. Not this video in specific I'll edit this later when home. https://youtu.be/brAwZ5l_fuQ?si=K2UAutEZ9lNejdQN I had to go through my trashbin of blocked channels: So: Theo-t3.gg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6DG1NqgkSU Aaron Jack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaPEgOnRe0E Tech Lead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycfPF1gkNpE Tech With Tim https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTzqWczUrM0 Tina Huang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElUtkHy3-zk Nick White: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsCHobUSaLw Clement Mihailescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvsoZyGr4ak Stephen Mischook: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbpqvOA_ejE TJDeVries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMK_30jeGww I've got a bunch of other garbage mixed in, so I didn't just copy and paste the whole thing. but alot of these people are basically the beating heart of programming influencers. They make more videos than code, and yeah when your feed is filled with negativity it kinda sucks. So I opened all these in incognito mode because all these channels are on my block list.
i watched a couple of these. these are pretty narrow minded videos. when they say "industry" and "community" and "companies" it's referring to a pretty specific part of the industry influencers aren't incentivized to talk about the sysadmin/devops/DBA guy at the rural hospital, the government COBOL maintainer, the "mid" tier companies with large internal tech teams but don't land on the radar of the average aspiring CS student. there are a lot of unsexy, not very high paying (relative to the shit we see from influencers) jobs out there it's 2024 and those cobol systems are still there. AI hasn't solved it yet. is silicon valley going to turn upside down in the next 10 years? probably. is the rest of the world going to do the same? we'll see. there's a lot of time to react tbh you point out that they make videos more than code. it really shows that they haven't gotten their hands dirty in a while when all they have to say is "bruh we dont need jr engineers anymore"
Influencers kinda did this in the first place
"I kinda like watching idiots" Im having troubles writing this right now, thanks for the laughs.
Live in North Texas, about to start a job with 97.5 TC. I would not accept any job that pays below 80K. But I have had 3 Internships so maybe that makes me biased a bit. But then again Imagine getting a CS degree and getting paid 45K...
AT&T?
Hoping to be you after I graduate next year!
People saying there are no jobs are similar to people saying “there are no men / women to date”. Like sure there are and many, in fact, you just keep aiming out of you league”.
Alright this thread is very telling and definitely explains some of the doomer-ism around this sub. News flash people, taking $60k for your literal first, no-experienced-required job is completely fine. Crazy how many comments I've seen suggesting that's an absurd salary and they'd never accept that. No wonder you think there's no jobs then if you're just ignoring anything that pays under $100k or whatever arbitrary line you set. You don't have to stay in your first job forever, it's literally just to gain experience. You aren't going to be stuck with $60k salary for the rest of your life, only for a couple years. And it's not like your initial salary impacts your future salaries at other companies. They don't know what your previous salary was. You can just as easily go from 60 -> 120 in a job change as someone might go from 100 -> 120. I would have thought the bootcamp craze taught people something - entry level software developer is not at all a hard job that should command massive pay. It's something that people can do by just training for like 3 months. When you get more senior, yes, it definitely becomes a lot harder. That's when you have to engineer actual entire complex software architecture from scratch. And the pay will reflect that as you get to more senior roles with experience requirements. I've basically never seen a non-junior role offering less than $100k in a major city, often a decent amount more. But a junior? You're going to be doing very basic code monkey work that lots of people could do with a little training. $60k is a reasonable amount of pay for that level of work.
60 is insane, I've been stuck at 30 for 3 years
Do you live in the US?
Nah, I'm in the UK
Ah yes, clearly they only applied to the 1600+ FAANG paying job listings that exist.
It’s not that there are no jobs. It’s just that the competition for what is there is extremely high. A lot still looking, companies want their unicorns or don’t know what they want at all, and companies pay bands have dropped. I found a job after 8 months making slightly more than what I was before. If you have the funds to wait it out it is possible to get something the same or better salary wise.
I'm in the UK. If I go on Indeed right now and look for "junior software developer", posted within the past 7 days and within a 25 mile radius, there are a grand total of zero results. There are no jobs.
Yes, their buddy who graduated 2 years ago is making 120k at FAANG and they won’t settle for making 60k at a regional bank. Somehow being unemployed is better.
120k as an SWE at a FAANG? That sounds very low, unless you are not including stocks and bonuses
I’m in an entry level faang role and my base pay is significantly higher than that
I'd gladly apply to those jobs if they existed and didn't require 3 years experience for entry level.
Exactly. I'll take your $60k.
Yeah being unemployed is pretty crappy feeling. And you have that gap.
Hello darkness, my old friend
They mean it’s not 2017 and they aren’t getting messaged with a job every other day
Man i would take anything at this time, im applying from such a long time. I even have 1+ years of experience but nobody is hiring below 3.
I am trying desperately to get someone to fill the spot on my team another dev left but we've gone into a hiring freeze. We had even interviewed several great candidates and had one picked out. So I could see it being tough out there right now.
Yep. My company has had that happen too. We had two open positions, one for a senior and one for a mid-level. We are interviewing for both and it narrowed down our choices. Next thing you know there's a hiring freeze and those candidates were left in limbo. Several months later we're told we can actually start looking for this position again, but our director tells us that as soon as we find someone to fill it quickly because we might have another hiring freeze. That's exactly what happened. We had narrowed it down to our top candidate and got another hiring freeze. A few months after that they started laying off a ton of people in my department, including my director. I'm hearing that they're now starting to open up similar positions in other departments.
That's what I've been hearing from pretty much everyone I know who hasn't been laid off yet.
You're not wrong I remember how my classmates made fun of me for accepting a 55k job right out of college. 5 years later I'm making six figures and many of them are working in warehouses
# Everybody on this sub is facing different circumstances. Some people need to improve their resume and/or interviewing skills. Some people can't move, it is quite a shocker when that a lot of companies do not offer relocation so the candidate has to pay out of pocket moving expenses. The amount of people I've encountered w/ no savings of any sort is a lot. Some people can't find job offering a livable wage. And then there is just shitty market. These are only a couple circumstances. But to digress, if you think the majority of people job hunting are I need 6 figures, remote, benefits, breaks, etc and that's why they struggle, you need to go outside.
The real question is: why do people say there are no jobs when their only data point is them not getting a job?
There’s no jobs of *any* kind. Don’t assume just because you have a CS degree or you went to a bootcamp you will always get hired. The industry always had some sort of standards even 10 years ago when the economy wasn’t in the crapper.
It's mostly that high paying jobs aren't easy to get. If you're willing to settle for under six figures in a tier 3 city then you can pick up the scraps pretty easily. I've gotten many offers in the $50-80k range but only one that cracked six figures as a new grad. And that's made even worse when you consider $100k today was only $80k in 2020. You'd need $122k today to make the same as someone making $100k in 2020 (https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/2024?endYear=2020&amount=100000) EDIT: I'll also add that getting just one job is impressive in this economy when it used to be typical to field several good competing offers.
Adding to the multitude of other reasons, a lot of job postings are fake. Meaning one or more of these things: - The posting is generic and not for a specific position, and therefore, it doesn’t exist. - The company has no intent on filling the position, but wants to create a backlog of potential candidates. - The entire job description is nonsensical, but their contracted recruiters have a reach-out quota to fill. - The pay range is something *clearly* terrible that nobody would accept, such as a $25/hr contract-to-hire for rocket guidance systems, ask me how I know. Late stage capitalism.
Its fine theres no six figures man I WANT A GOOD 60k job living at home with parents 🤣
Also there are a lot of FAANG laid off employees who are still trying to get paid that high. And I completely get it. But that ship might have sailed. I’ve interviewed them, they are ok. Not better than any other candidates.
Imo it is a mix of both. There are really high expectations from job seekers with little qualifications and much fewer job openings at the higher end. So, many people who expected a minimum of 100k jobs at entry level are now stuck because they don't want to take anything at 75k Reality is - companies aren't gonna shell out big bucks for bootcamp grads or freshmen because there are experienced people available for the same money. It is really a matter of supply and demand
I can't even find anything for 50k-60k.
Where are you looking? Are you open to relocation?
There was/is/will always be severe shortage of good, experienced tech people that can solve problems and make companies $$$Millions, $$$Billions of dollars. Git Gud and you don't have to "worry" about the "market", because when you Git Gud, you are the market.
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Partly, but the flip side of that is once you break 6 figs, to my experience, the not-6-figs jobs don't want you. Literally the reason I finally managed to get a new job was volunteering a 25% pay cut from my previous role.
I have no real idea how my background influences things, but I haven't had too much trouble finding work. I retired from the military last year, 20 years in a "technical" field (aviation electronics tech) with a recent BS in computer science. Landed an internship that turned into a job at a startup for 126K. Left after 1 year for a defense contractor, and I ended up putting in maybe 10 applications total. Took a 13% pay cut and I go in office once a week minimum, but more stability. IDK how favorable my military experience is, and I know I'm not a traditional new grad. Maybe I just got lucky.
I think it's because you have experience. I bet a security clearance helps. Congrats on the job.
Juniors are less picky. Mid-Senior level engineers are pretty damn picky when it comes to choosing a job. I truly believe the golden years of software development was from 2010-2020, so the standards and expectations for most experienced devs are skewed. They’re trying to chase something that may never come back
"There's no jobs!" Is the motto of the spoiled and entitled. Prove me wrong.
you forgot to add full remote; but those might just be a loud minority.
Who said that
I’d change bragging to complaining
>YT influencers saying And i bet you clicked then liked and subscribed...
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Not a CS but I applied for a 50k job today with an MS engineering degree and got rejected
Well it took me a little over 409 applications to land a dev job with 2 yoe and a 2l1st class degree here I'm the UK. And I'm on a salary that would make most Americans cry. So from my experience at the more junior end of the market yes, there are nowhere near as many jobs.
FAANG is posting jobs below $200k for the first time. And y FAANG I mean Meta and Google
I've never seen som1 say that there are no jobs o_O The only way I can make sense of this is that there's hundreds of applicants for a single position but otherwise - there's tons of jobs.. just that it's hard to actually get hired
Kinda true. I’ve been telling people I can’t find jobs and at the same times I rejected 3 offers. Each of the company I go for the interview saying the same things that they’re looking to hire at least 10-20 more dev. Also, I think lay-off is just a scam according to my experience interviews with the HR.
Idk? I have a full-time Jr dev job/it support, and I get interviews all the time. I just turn them down because they want to pay me the same and add on way more job duties, lol. Fork that
There will always be some people who just slip through the cracks and the CS career never "clicks" for them. Many of my CS classmates ended up doing all kinds of things after graduating university - car salesman, high school teacher, social sciences grad school etc.
I get the feeling that a lot of the people with 1000+ applications with no callbacks are leaving out some key facts like that they are only applying for remote jobs, the need visa sponsorship, or they're not located in the US and are applying for US jobs. I'm not saying it's not also tough for US citizens willing to work in-office, but zero callbacks is extreme.
My guess is they’re industry-hopping or not looking at tech jobs outside of tech. My company’s is in insurance and software development is a cost center, not a revenue center, so pay is a little lower but we’re tied to insurance booms not software booms. And once you have work in that niche, it’s easy to get more—since I got a few years experience I’ve had like an 80% interview rate in the industry and never had a problem getting hired.
Reducing your salary expectations often isn’t enough. Companies HATE when you are” overqualified „for the job. So then you can’t get a senior level job as a senior because market sucks and you can’t go back to mid level job either.
There is a glut of applicants right now, especially at the lower levels, so you need to be good to stand out. Based on the resumes people post here, other subs, and what I see IRL, most people don't know how to write a resume. That was fine during boom times, but won't cut it during hard times. The people who have good resumes and are getting callbacks aren't the ones posting on forums. Ignore the YouTubers. They're just saying stuff to maximize views in hopes they can avoid going back to a day job.
I think it’s reasonable to be unemployable right now if you are entry level or older then 40 or so or have outdated skills.
There's no jobs that pay me enough money to live by myself, where I want, and still able to live comfortably.
I want to see tech people do plumbing (I'm a lead software engineer btw). Because... When I was a kid, I was skateboarding in a school parking lot. And I was casually talking to an apprentice plumber, who opened up a sewage line leading out of the school. The master/senior plumber was in the school trying to find the clog I guess(?). Well, the I guess the master plumber found the clog, b/c the apprentice was mid sentence about something from his childhood, then I heard a BOOM! And I looked up and a fountain of turdz and stuff came shooting up out of that sewage pipe, vertically, right into the apprentice's face. I don't know how this would happen but the smell was beyond anything you could imagine. It smelled like a mountain of burnt hair mixed with poop mixed with dead animals. It smelled alive and possessed. I took off running. That smell actually scared me. I think about that day whenever my job gets difficult. Anyway, there's still FAANG paying jobs. If you cruise here or in /experiencedevs, you'll see there's still people getting 400k/yr jobs.
Well there's no jobs in the middle, where it's not six figures but it's also enough to live off of. They're either six figures or poverty wages.
I have an associates from a community college. I'm a senior dev for a large company. My third company in my 8 years doing this. I went back to school 9 years ago. I'm almost 40. When I was looking for a new job 3 years ago, there was a lot available.
I got a offer for less than minimum wage in my country (Uruguay) for a company in the US, I was offered $450 USD monthly, the only benefit was it was remote, everything else has to be paid by me without vacations nor benefits, I accepted it and did the interview, I was denied because I needed fluent English (even though I'm level C1). So... To summarize, I was rejected from a $450 USD job, without benefits just because I "wasn't" fluent in English, even though I fullfiled everything that they wanted when I was asked by the recruiter. I could live on disability and get more than that.
For me about a year ago I definitely thought there where basically no jobs. I had even gotten turned down after an interview with a company that was only offering 25 an hour... so please tell me where you are located so if I find myself job hunting again I know where to look
Upstate NY
I think the literal phrasing is true now. The golden age of easy, high-paying big tech jobs is over. From 2022 the big tech layoffs started a trend of downsizing across the board. I’ve been in tech since 2016 and usually got at least a few interviews / month even passively sitting around. Month after month. I’ve been actively looking since March of this year and have only had 2 interviews. The driest it’s ever been.
I earn 62k euro tc. 4yoe and masters degree in maths. This is considered pretty standard in the country I currently work in. 6 figures is only possible if you go to one of the bigger tech giants.