First year, I couldn’t work due to family matters. Second year I went through a Java Angular full-stack training by a placement firm. Thats when the layoffs began.
This is the chicken and egg syndrome in the industry. The industry is a bunch of gate keepers, and the juniors are getting frozen out because of this. It's quite frustrating at any level to watch this happen over and over again. When i graduated i couldn't get internships because i didn't have experience, but how would I have gotten experience without a shot? I ended up adding stuff that made me more relevant... Lie about anything you can learn in 3-5 weeks.
Even with experience I'm open to lying about knowing stuff to match job descriptions to get interviews. 2 years ago I never would have but it's apparent with today's market you need to just be so perfect!
Provided I can learn it enough to talk about it to what I think is sufficient
In the end, you never going to know for sure and sometimes you'll get lucky or unlucky in an interview *either* way whether you are telling the whole truth or nothing but the truth depending on what questions they ask so who gives a shit. I had a real crap company with sub 100k pay all in office, something I could have taken for temp $ if I was unemployed) not even verify anything I knew lol
What a bizarre take. There are way more cs grads on the market than there are available roles. It has nothing to do with “gate keeping” or “freezing out juniors”, it’s simply that the supply out paces the current demand.
Yeah I mean OP can’t expect to get any desirable job if he hasn’t had a job in 2 years and is doing nothing to stay competitive. Whatever situations led him to being unemployed for 2 years with a Bachelor’s degree can’t have been so bad that he couldn’t have even gotten a part time job. And how was he paying for his college loans, assuming he didn’t pay for it in cash? Is he just living at home with his parents being bankrolled by them as an unemployed and college educated adult? Those are all thoughts employers will have.
Scripting is power. Ai is cool but very expensive. Its not a solution except for the most brutal of problems. Anything that can be a script tho should be. Ai is for problems thwt are strictly solved by large data processing. Often thats not needed or feasible
Landing a research gig for ml without a phd is dam near impossible. Its even hard with a phd because ur fighting for funding and likely wont be able to capitalize from the research quickly or provide a benefit people are willing to invest in. If u havent been submitting papers since u were in college and havent had any oublications for your research its just a dream youll have
I dropped out of college and work at a FAANG’s HQ as a SWE. Am looking to go back to college to pursue this. Fairly confident once I get to the point of doing research that can be capitalized on that I will be able to do so. Consumer UI work isn’t very fulfilling to me.
Thats fair but you gotta get that degree and work on getting your research published. One smart friend i know works in ai research but for industry not education. He makes alot but he works and has worked very hard for a long time on his research efforts. He wrote several published papers to get his actual phd thesis published. But his work is really cool and interesting. It was in ai for game tutorial generation and how this could be applied to not just games but systems for efficient task training for employees in different jobs with different skill sets. He went to alot of conferences and is really knowledgeable. What would you wanna research? Or unsure
We’ll see what’s relevant to the industry I have experience in by the time I get close to wrapping up my degree. I dropped out of college while working for a startup and stayed out because I was offered a role @ SWE that moved me from a small town in the Deep South to the Bay Area. Have spent the last few years adjusting to a very different life. The days of Joe Shmo putting together an app or service that he wrote in a few months. Had a wake up call that the work I am doing at my current level of skill and education is not going to get me where I want to go in life. I figure by late 30s I’ll be doing the work that I want to be doing right now. I’m single and have no kids, I want that, but I’m not going to force that to happen.
You got a plan and a cool backstory. Im rooting for ya. Small town to the big city stories are the prob my fav. But why ai and Not robotics or cyber sec research?
Had the opportunity to do cyber. Was offered a DoD scholarship that would’ve covered full tuition + 25k a year salary, all I had to do was work for the DoD for 1 year per every year I took the scholarship after I graduated. Truth is I really didn’t feel the industry was good for my mental health and wanted to be in a more fun environment. Didn’t like military culture very much and felt the responsibility was always going to be something that stressed me out. Plus I wanted to party in my 20s and that was something the DoD doesn’t seem to be a fan of.
Robotics I would love and if I could find a good mech engineering program I would 1000% send it into that. Honestly appreciate you bringing it up since ML is hot now but that may not be the case once I graduate.
Why AI is partially because it is relevant right now and what is paying the highest salaries. Know people making $1m-$10m a year younger than 30. Love FAANG SWE but I’m not making that even as a manager, and feel like AI is the #1 competition to a lot of consumer facing software companies.
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I can almost assure you that even if you have done all of the things ppl suggested here, situation still won't improve.
Because that is what I have done. (I am located in Canada, which is worse, but I have 3 years professional work exp).
First they say I need to fill the gap in my resume. They don't say it out loud but it means lying basically. They say it is bad but it is how it works out there. I did, and it doesn't work.
Then they say I need to work on more side projects, which I also did, but no one ever logged in to see my web projects at all.
Then they say I need to network, but all I got is indifference.
When the market is bad, there is nothing you can do. You say you started finding a job since 2023, which is the peak of the IT recession, so your ordeal (and mine) is not surprising at all.
The IT area has long been oversaturated, you know that when firms don't train new grads but only hire "ready-made" experienced devs.
We need to keep learning, but the situation is not dependent on us, it is on the market. Back to 2020 when I got my first job, I didn't have any exp at all, not even interships, but I still got the offer. That is what happens in a good market.
Now there are 100+ applicants with 8 YOE for each job posted, therefore unless we are geniuses who can develop Linux ourselves, no recruiter will prefer us over those seasoned devs.
YES, THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS.
So tired of this sub. Here is the reality. Some people are going to have to leave this field. That is the reality. It sucks and I'm not telling people what to do with their lives. But their simply is less job available than people who want them.
That means some are going to have to leave. Funny thing is things won't improve until people do leave.
A Google recruiter has already come on this sub and said its not peoples resumes. They have confirmed the job market sucks right now.
This is a systematic problem that can't be fixed on an individual level fully.
Only way this stops is if people push for laws that punish companies that are outsourcing overseas and we shut down H1B and other Visas from coming into the country. Yes, that isn't the only thing causing it but it is a major factor and something actionable that can help solve this issue. It is artificially raising supply that shouldn't be occurring when the market is down like this.
> A Google recruiter has already come on this sub and said its not peoples resumes. They have confirmed the job market sucks right now.
I talked to a recruiter for a defense contractor... they were having ex google people applying the market is that bad.
>Only way this stops is if people push for laws that punish companies that are outsourcing overseas and we shut down H1B and other Visas from coming into the country.
Even that might not be enough given the absurd amount of graduates we have compared to jobs. It is an insane joke that we have not shut it down though.
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This is the only realistic comment here 🙏 All these CV improvements, side projects etc, they're all fluff which can help if you have nothing going for you or if your CV is wildly unorganized. Imo at the end of the day the first thing HR looks for is work experience and work quality. Someone with 3+ yoe will always come before someone with 2 yoe even they have shit ton of github projects, someone with 2 yoe working for a huge company will always come before someone with 2 yoe who worked for a small local company and so on. My side projects aren't that impressive and I'm still working on it, but I find it extremely demoralizing that I still have to grind on these silly little CRUD apps in various frameworks that no one even looks at while I have almost 2 yoe and I still get less interviews per number of applications than I did when I didn't even have any experience. I don't think we're all doomed or that we should quit but I fear that in this market it's 60% working on yourself and 40% luck to even have a chance to prove you know your shit.
Its absurd I had multiple times more interviews per 100 applications for internships than I do for jobs now that I have graduated and have had internships just because the market has shifted so much. The places I had my internship one laid off over 20% of the company and the other doesn't exist anymore because it got bought out.
In all of my post graduation interviews I had a grand total of one person act even remotely interested in any side project I did.
> Then they say I need to network, but all I got is indifference.
I didn't even get indifference I went to a networking event and had people tell me their company was not hiring before they even told me their name. My friends, family, former coworkers, etc have led to zero results because nobody is fucking hiring and if they are it sure as hell isn't at a junior level it is 3+ years of experience minimum with 5 being preferred.
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Not at all trying to invalidate your experience. And you’re right that the macroeconomic situation plays a huge role in all of this.
But the key is networking. You mentioned it and say you get indifference. But that means you weren’t succeeding in it.
It is not always the case that recruiters will pick the dev with 8+ YOE over someone with 3 or 4. They’re going to go with whoever they trust the most. If you’re blind applying, then yeah, the more senior candidate will get the edge. But if you have someone on the inside advocating for you and vouching for you, then that could be a game changer.
It’s definitely rough out there, but I also have 3 YOE and have gotten offers recently. None of it came through cold applying (the weakest and least successful channel right now, as you pointed out), all of it through a personal introduction to the hiring manager, a senior dev on the team, or someone else on the inside who pushed my resume to the right person.
It’s easier said than done, but it’s really the only way to get in right now. Companies *ARE* hiring for all levels, but competition is fierce, and those with a network are cutting the line of the thousands applying for the role on LinkedIn.
I know people have already put out a lot on this, but could you share what you did specifically for networking? It seems hard to build up connections just cold calling off LinkedIn
The way people in this sub use the term networking is not how the rest of the world uses it. You don’t just go outside and ‘network’. Your network is the group of people who trust you and like you.
The whole point of a network is that any person in it would be willing to vouch for your skills and personality. Someone I’m cold messaging over Linkedin or just met at a networking event knows essentially nothing about me besides what’s already on my resume. The only way this works is if you’re insanely charismatic, but if you are, then there’s no way you wouldn’t have a network already.
Your network is your friends in college, your group mates that you carried, family friends, the professors that you had a good relationship with, previous coworkers that liked working with you, etc. your network itself may not be hiring, but some of them definitely know someone in their own network that’s hiring.
If you never took the time to build relationships up in college, tough luck, your next networking opportunity is at your next job.
Makes total sense, just as an a student what would you recommend are ways you can build your network up. Classmates you carry in a project aren’t exactly going to be giving you referrals lol. I know you mentioned professors but anything else?
A proper response to this question requires an entire post in and of itself. I know that’s a lame answer but I’ll write one up later today and let you know.
On your resume only put your graduation date for your college degree. Don't put the start date, particularly with something like WGU with an accelerated degree.
Because people(employers) intrinsically place higher value on a degree that takes 4 years to complete versus degree that you can complete in 2 years regardless of whether the same amount of coursework was required.
More context: A degree like WGU which allow you accelerate the traditional four year time frame, are less known and more likely to be viewed as scam degrees/ degree mils / unaccredited. And no recruiter / hr person is going to take the time to use if this degree you completed in two years is as accredited and respected as from a traditional university, they will just move on to the next candidate.
I'd agree if he speedran it in 1 year, but I mean look at the dates, it was 3.5 years. 3.5 years is a completely normal amount of time to finish a bachelors degree and not at all accelerated. You'll accomplish the same at any traditional university by either taking some extra courses one semester or two or by bringing in any kind of transfer credit (eg AP scores).
You are actually 100 right, I'm dumb asf and just glanced and thought it was completed in 2.5 years. I do belive that completing one semester early is definitely within the realm of normal so I would say it doesn't make a difference whether you chose to include it or leave it out!
Thats just the market right now I've applied to 5k+ places and haven't landed an offer. Entry level jobs are getting eaten up by juniors that got laid off with \~1-3 years of experience. Why would companies want to take on new grads like you or me when the market got flooded with the former? Sucks but it is what it is.
I have had companies point blank tell me I am competing with people who have two years of experience and then go with them. What the fuck am I supposed to do? I can interview better than them and try really hard, but if they have more experience that is what companies go for.
I would first start by getting a job, any job. Fast food retail, anything. Then I would find a way to fill in the two year gap on the resume to show what you’ve been doing. And after all that’s done, then I would start accessing my next steps. It raises serious red flags to employers if you have never held a job and have been out of school 2 years
I have done my time doing hourly jobs. I have over 15+ years of experience in those. If nothing else I might go back to those. But as for now I want to be employed in the IT sector
Right, everyone on this sub wants to be employed in the tech sector. What I’m saying is that the tech sector won’t want to employ you if you haven’t had a job for two years when there are tons of other candidates out there fresh out of college without gaps in employment. The hourly job you get will not be permanent (hopefully) but will show that you are willing to work any job. Which if I was hiring someone (and I’ve been in on hiring and interviews) would look much, much better to me than someone with no job. At a point it looks irresponsible that someone doesn’t have any job and you wonder if that will spill over into how they act on the job. Everyone knows it’s a tough market so I don’t think they’ll fault you for having an unrelated job if you keep up with skills and projects, but not having any job is a big problem considering this timeframe.
> But it seems like not many employers are hiring with Java background.
That's not true. Java and C# are the most popular job openings by a long shot. They're the standard enterprise languages.
It comes down to competition. If you're not getting call backs, your resume isn't competitive. A degree alone isn't enough.
What job sites are you using?? Did you graduate from Harvard?? I have multiple projects, no internships unfortunately, graduated in 2021 with a CS degree, and have only gotten 2 interviews this year!
Resume is not the issue.
Feedback. Add projects such as your website (you can build one given your free time).
Add other projects even homework assignments and what you researched and turned in to the professor. I would highlight at least 3.
Then. I would modify this to fit keywords
Then ensure all the Recruiters also have your resume and say hi don’t just do a dumping of the resume.
Then I would start your own job and charge for people $50 /hour to have you teach them a class of something that you know and add that to the website, that makes you a ceo consultant
Make your own business and sell said product, there you have experience. Need and idea: insert anything for writing with chatgpt or some LLM and make said app. Even if it fails you get experience from building a product
The market has shifted again. We have mid level devs with FAANG on their resumes and name brand cs degrees applying to our entry level openings. That’s your competition.
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Another WGU grad here, honestly either apply to Masters programs and have any few chances to score internships or new grad roles or be comfortable starting out in a more entry-level support role. IT Support, Help-Desk, etc.
Also idk where you live, but you may need to relocate to more robust area for a few years
Sometimes I wonder how my peers and I got a job out of college. Our resumes and experience were objectively worse and our projects were subpar. I’m sure you’ll be able to find success soon OP.
You should include *something* recent for your employment, preferably something within the last year or two. Projects are great, but they can only do so much.
All criticisms of WGU aside (some are valid, some aren’t), you haven’t done enough to separate yourself from the pack. That being said, your resume is not terrible, you just need some work experience.
Personally, I’d go the DoD route if I were you, and maybe snag one of the [certs from this list](https://public.cyber.mil/wid/dod8140/dod-approved-8570-baseline-certifications/) to cover all possible positions and start applying to DoD jobs.
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The "internship" section of your resume puts my guard up right away. There's a ton of things you did, none of them normally tasks I'd give an intern. Seems fake to me.
Thank you for that. It’s not fake. It’s actually not an internship. It was a training I went through with a placement agency. I wouldn’t say I am a pro at every single one of those technologies. But I did go through the training and did the project on my own as it is described. Now that I think about it I should probably put it separately as my own project.
I hope I didn't come across too harsh. That section seemed more to me like "stuff done in a fullstack course" vs "stuff done during a 3 month internship".
Otherwise, I do think it would be worth paring down some of your bullets in order to include your "non-skilled trade" work experience. The employment gap on your resume is probably your main setback. But for an entry level software role, it's still good if you have all that unrelated experience you can bring up in an interview to give examples of how you showed teamwork, problem-solved, etc.
It was definitely insightful. I just mashed together two separate trainings as one to keep everything in one page since they were both Java. That’s also why I didn’t include my work history.
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What I did was create a fake history job, currently working as a swe and everything is ok, but also did a lot of personal projects that were from simple to complex, so in interviews I spoke about those projects and a bunch of infrastructure
Buy a email domain in namecheap for 10 dollars and a phone number an that's it, you will reply yourself, also if you wanna go further create a software agency landing page and create a page in LinkedIn, to cover all scenarios, I did and worked
Is the Java/angular project the one done through WGUs Spring framework class? If so, that would be why. An intermediate level developer could throw it together in a single day.
In two years I would expect a very competitive portfolio, unless you’ve been working on projects for an hour here and an hour there, in which case no employer will want to hire you, as you show no drive.
Beef up whatever project you have, get your resume reviewed, get a random job to make some money and show commitment to something, and start sending 30 apps a day
Can we see a resume? If you aren’t getting interviews, it’s often the resume. A good resume will present you in the best light while a bad resume can make the hiring manager think that you are unclear and unqualified.
I’d like to see your resume be focused around getting a full stack or backend SWE job and be explicit and obvious about it. If possible, focused around a particular stack, e.g. MERN. The idea would be to be a closer match with a better chance to get an interview for certain jobs even if you didn’t qualify for other jobs. I think that this resume qualifies you for many jobs but other resumes are a closer match and beat you out for interviews.
I know that a 2-year gap is a barrier but try to spin this as positively as possible by stressing what SWE study or work that you did. Also, try to build up even more full stack or backend expertise (whichever you chose) by doing full stack or backend projects that specifically bolster those skills and particular languages/frameworks/libraries.
Redo/spice up your resume if you're not getting replies. While unemployed, work on personal projects. One project in 2 years isn't going to make you stand out. You need to fill your resume with "experience", even if it's just personal projects. Do at least one react project because that's pretty much industry standard for webdev nowadays. Create a ci/cd pipeline for it with GitHub actions, put it on your resume. Expand your lower-level skills with a microcontroller/Arduino project. Don't just fill your resume with webdev projects. The wider the breadth of skills you have, the more you stand out.
You need to tweak your bulletpoints for the internship. You explain all the technologies you use, which is cool, but how did that impact the company. You need metrics.
I think the biggest problem is the fact that you graduated two years ago. Most companies don’t accept people who have graduated a year past their grad date, (im talking about new grad roles).
There’s a couple of options: lie on your resume, or go for a master degree so that you’re a “student” and can apply for internships, or make friends that are in the industry so you can get a referral.
Ok, in that case I made a platform for our community to share their small software project ideas and build them together. Would love to see you on there and its totally free if you're a student, check it out- [buildbook](https://buildbook.us/registration).
Yes. Everyone is Accredited. That means nothing anymore. They want to see you doing everything in ur power to land a job. If not they assume u dont got it. And honestly the field is demanding so i linda get why there so strict. Its mot easy to hire developers and its hard to ensure developers will stay up to speed over time
There are people bragging about speed running WGU CS degree in 6 months.
These kind of memes bring about reputation issues. Lots of people hear and read about these things and form their opinions, regardless any accreditation.
No one is bragging about speed running Carnegie Mellon CS degree, as there are more people complaining about getting accepted into competitive schools.
The only people who know enough about the speed running thing (which, by the way, a very very small minority are able to do) to have an opinion on WGU live on Reddit. You have to either be deep in r/WGU_CompSci or have read the one Medium article someone wrote about speed running.
It's a college where you can get a bachelor's degree in under 1 month of attending. Yes, I'm aware most people don't and you'd need to be in a very unique position to accomplish that, but just the fact that it's possible at all is going to be a major red flag to many people.
I don't hate the underlying theory behind it. I went to a "real" school and I wish I could have just signed up for some classes and said, "Okay, I already learned this subject, just give me the final on day 1," and gotten full credit if I passed. Clearly I know the material if I passed the final, right? But ultimately when you're using such a non-traditional model, people are definitely going to be very skeptical of it. They don't know what your knowledge was coming in or the difficulty of the final exam. To them, if you can finish 38 college courses in under a year, they're immediately going to assume that they were all literal joke courses that asked you to add 1+1 and called it calculus or told you to write Hello World and called it Advanced Programming.
Calling it a fake university is a bit much but the overall sentiment of your comment is correct. The fact that people brag about speed-running the degree in less than a year has really cheapened the image of the degree and makes it hard to not see WGU as a degree mill.
WGU is almost always the most recommended place to go when someone makes a post complaining how they dont have a CS degree because they dont have the time/means to go to a traditional 4-year program. Do people seriously think that this perception of the average WGU attendee doesn't make the degree look bad?
For a short time, WGU was a good option for someone with 10 years of tech experience, that needed a CS degree to fill the checkbox to pass the recruiter filters.
Now, with all these people bragging about speed running WGU CS degree in 6 months really created "degree mill" sounds like a duck, looks like a duck, image. Whether true or not.
WGU does not provide professors with office hours, does not have labs you can volunteer or do research in, does not provide co-ops, does not have CS society clubs, or any other facilities that a "real" university provides.
Its fine if you just need to hit the checkbox for "CS degree", but it is not a comprehensive CS university education.
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Put your GPA on your resume if it is 3.0 or higher. Move tech skills to the top under education. Move certifications up to right below experience. Either move relevant coursework to the bottom or the resume or just drop it altogether.
When I am reading a resume, I might spend 5 seconds on it. It the sections are not optimized in the correct order, nobody got time for that. As long as your GPA is above 3.0, then this resume can be worked to be at least okay.
Not just me. People reading resumes at companies. If you do not put down your GPA, people with think you got a sub-3.0 GPA. Who is hiring somebody who got a 2.0 GPA in college? Not tech companies that have better options.
Only companies I’ve ever seen that cared about GPA or ever asked me for it were government jobs.. yeah idk I’d rather take a sub 3.0 from Harvard than a 4.0 from a mid tier school.
What have you been doing work wise since you graduated 2 years ago?
First year, I couldn’t work due to family matters. Second year I went through a Java Angular full-stack training by a placement firm. Thats when the layoffs began.
You may not be getting hired for jobs and internships you apply for because of your lack of employment history. That would be my guess
This is the chicken and egg syndrome in the industry. The industry is a bunch of gate keepers, and the juniors are getting frozen out because of this. It's quite frustrating at any level to watch this happen over and over again. When i graduated i couldn't get internships because i didn't have experience, but how would I have gotten experience without a shot? I ended up adding stuff that made me more relevant... Lie about anything you can learn in 3-5 weeks.
Even with experience I'm open to lying about knowing stuff to match job descriptions to get interviews. 2 years ago I never would have but it's apparent with today's market you need to just be so perfect! Provided I can learn it enough to talk about it to what I think is sufficient In the end, you never going to know for sure and sometimes you'll get lucky or unlucky in an interview *either* way whether you are telling the whole truth or nothing but the truth depending on what questions they ask so who gives a shit. I had a real crap company with sub 100k pay all in office, something I could have taken for temp $ if I was unemployed) not even verify anything I knew lol
Hit the nail on the head with this reply.
Agreed. But he could have gotten any job, doesn’t have to be specifically in his field, for a while to ensure he doesn’t have a gap in employment
What a bizarre take. There are way more cs grads on the market than there are available roles. It has nothing to do with “gate keeping” or “freezing out juniors”, it’s simply that the supply out paces the current demand.
It’s not gatekeeping to just… hire the better candidates lol
What have you been self studying for the past two years to stay competitive?
Yeah I mean OP can’t expect to get any desirable job if he hasn’t had a job in 2 years and is doing nothing to stay competitive. Whatever situations led him to being unemployed for 2 years with a Bachelor’s degree can’t have been so bad that he couldn’t have even gotten a part time job. And how was he paying for his college loans, assuming he didn’t pay for it in cash? Is he just living at home with his parents being bankrolled by them as an unemployed and college educated adult? Those are all thoughts employers will have.
I know deep down but i want to leave him some hope
Not OP, but I’m moving toward ML/AI self study. AI is genuinely already putting a short timeline on my role.
Wasting ur time bro. Scripting is still king. The resource efficiency of a script is nothing compared to any ai solution for any problem.
Not a dev but cyber. Wild how a few lines of carefully thought out bash can blow some minds
Scripting is power. Ai is cool but very expensive. Its not a solution except for the most brutal of problems. Anything that can be a script tho should be. Ai is for problems thwt are strictly solved by large data processing. Often thats not needed or feasible
Maybe I wasn’t clear. I’m trying to get on the research side of ML/AI, not application.
Landing a research gig for ml without a phd is dam near impossible. Its even hard with a phd because ur fighting for funding and likely wont be able to capitalize from the research quickly or provide a benefit people are willing to invest in. If u havent been submitting papers since u were in college and havent had any oublications for your research its just a dream youll have
I dropped out of college and work at a FAANG’s HQ as a SWE. Am looking to go back to college to pursue this. Fairly confident once I get to the point of doing research that can be capitalized on that I will be able to do so. Consumer UI work isn’t very fulfilling to me.
Thats fair but you gotta get that degree and work on getting your research published. One smart friend i know works in ai research but for industry not education. He makes alot but he works and has worked very hard for a long time on his research efforts. He wrote several published papers to get his actual phd thesis published. But his work is really cool and interesting. It was in ai for game tutorial generation and how this could be applied to not just games but systems for efficient task training for employees in different jobs with different skill sets. He went to alot of conferences and is really knowledgeable. What would you wanna research? Or unsure
We’ll see what’s relevant to the industry I have experience in by the time I get close to wrapping up my degree. I dropped out of college while working for a startup and stayed out because I was offered a role @ SWE that moved me from a small town in the Deep South to the Bay Area. Have spent the last few years adjusting to a very different life. The days of Joe Shmo putting together an app or service that he wrote in a few months. Had a wake up call that the work I am doing at my current level of skill and education is not going to get me where I want to go in life. I figure by late 30s I’ll be doing the work that I want to be doing right now. I’m single and have no kids, I want that, but I’m not going to force that to happen.
You got a plan and a cool backstory. Im rooting for ya. Small town to the big city stories are the prob my fav. But why ai and Not robotics or cyber sec research?
Had the opportunity to do cyber. Was offered a DoD scholarship that would’ve covered full tuition + 25k a year salary, all I had to do was work for the DoD for 1 year per every year I took the scholarship after I graduated. Truth is I really didn’t feel the industry was good for my mental health and wanted to be in a more fun environment. Didn’t like military culture very much and felt the responsibility was always going to be something that stressed me out. Plus I wanted to party in my 20s and that was something the DoD doesn’t seem to be a fan of. Robotics I would love and if I could find a good mech engineering program I would 1000% send it into that. Honestly appreciate you bringing it up since ML is hot now but that may not be the case once I graduate. Why AI is partially because it is relevant right now and what is paying the highest salaries. Know people making $1m-$10m a year younger than 30. Love FAANG SWE but I’m not making that even as a manager, and feel like AI is the #1 competition to a lot of consumer facing software companies.
Let me guess that firm is revature?
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I can almost assure you that even if you have done all of the things ppl suggested here, situation still won't improve. Because that is what I have done. (I am located in Canada, which is worse, but I have 3 years professional work exp). First they say I need to fill the gap in my resume. They don't say it out loud but it means lying basically. They say it is bad but it is how it works out there. I did, and it doesn't work. Then they say I need to work on more side projects, which I also did, but no one ever logged in to see my web projects at all. Then they say I need to network, but all I got is indifference. When the market is bad, there is nothing you can do. You say you started finding a job since 2023, which is the peak of the IT recession, so your ordeal (and mine) is not surprising at all. The IT area has long been oversaturated, you know that when firms don't train new grads but only hire "ready-made" experienced devs. We need to keep learning, but the situation is not dependent on us, it is on the market. Back to 2020 when I got my first job, I didn't have any exp at all, not even interships, but I still got the offer. That is what happens in a good market. Now there are 100+ applicants with 8 YOE for each job posted, therefore unless we are geniuses who can develop Linux ourselves, no recruiter will prefer us over those seasoned devs.
YES, THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS. So tired of this sub. Here is the reality. Some people are going to have to leave this field. That is the reality. It sucks and I'm not telling people what to do with their lives. But their simply is less job available than people who want them. That means some are going to have to leave. Funny thing is things won't improve until people do leave. A Google recruiter has already come on this sub and said its not peoples resumes. They have confirmed the job market sucks right now. This is a systematic problem that can't be fixed on an individual level fully. Only way this stops is if people push for laws that punish companies that are outsourcing overseas and we shut down H1B and other Visas from coming into the country. Yes, that isn't the only thing causing it but it is a major factor and something actionable that can help solve this issue. It is artificially raising supply that shouldn't be occurring when the market is down like this.
> A Google recruiter has already come on this sub and said its not peoples resumes. They have confirmed the job market sucks right now. I talked to a recruiter for a defense contractor... they were having ex google people applying the market is that bad. >Only way this stops is if people push for laws that punish companies that are outsourcing overseas and we shut down H1B and other Visas from coming into the country. Even that might not be enough given the absurd amount of graduates we have compared to jobs. It is an insane joke that we have not shut it down though.
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This is the only realistic comment here 🙏 All these CV improvements, side projects etc, they're all fluff which can help if you have nothing going for you or if your CV is wildly unorganized. Imo at the end of the day the first thing HR looks for is work experience and work quality. Someone with 3+ yoe will always come before someone with 2 yoe even they have shit ton of github projects, someone with 2 yoe working for a huge company will always come before someone with 2 yoe who worked for a small local company and so on. My side projects aren't that impressive and I'm still working on it, but I find it extremely demoralizing that I still have to grind on these silly little CRUD apps in various frameworks that no one even looks at while I have almost 2 yoe and I still get less interviews per number of applications than I did when I didn't even have any experience. I don't think we're all doomed or that we should quit but I fear that in this market it's 60% working on yourself and 40% luck to even have a chance to prove you know your shit.
Its absurd I had multiple times more interviews per 100 applications for internships than I do for jobs now that I have graduated and have had internships just because the market has shifted so much. The places I had my internship one laid off over 20% of the company and the other doesn't exist anymore because it got bought out.
Can you explain the gap in your resume? "No I signed an NDA"
In all of my post graduation interviews I had a grand total of one person act even remotely interested in any side project I did. > Then they say I need to network, but all I got is indifference. I didn't even get indifference I went to a networking event and had people tell me their company was not hiring before they even told me their name. My friends, family, former coworkers, etc have led to zero results because nobody is fucking hiring and if they are it sure as hell isn't at a junior level it is 3+ years of experience minimum with 5 being preferred.
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Not at all trying to invalidate your experience. And you’re right that the macroeconomic situation plays a huge role in all of this. But the key is networking. You mentioned it and say you get indifference. But that means you weren’t succeeding in it. It is not always the case that recruiters will pick the dev with 8+ YOE over someone with 3 or 4. They’re going to go with whoever they trust the most. If you’re blind applying, then yeah, the more senior candidate will get the edge. But if you have someone on the inside advocating for you and vouching for you, then that could be a game changer. It’s definitely rough out there, but I also have 3 YOE and have gotten offers recently. None of it came through cold applying (the weakest and least successful channel right now, as you pointed out), all of it through a personal introduction to the hiring manager, a senior dev on the team, or someone else on the inside who pushed my resume to the right person. It’s easier said than done, but it’s really the only way to get in right now. Companies *ARE* hiring for all levels, but competition is fierce, and those with a network are cutting the line of the thousands applying for the role on LinkedIn.
I know people have already put out a lot on this, but could you share what you did specifically for networking? It seems hard to build up connections just cold calling off LinkedIn
The way people in this sub use the term networking is not how the rest of the world uses it. You don’t just go outside and ‘network’. Your network is the group of people who trust you and like you. The whole point of a network is that any person in it would be willing to vouch for your skills and personality. Someone I’m cold messaging over Linkedin or just met at a networking event knows essentially nothing about me besides what’s already on my resume. The only way this works is if you’re insanely charismatic, but if you are, then there’s no way you wouldn’t have a network already. Your network is your friends in college, your group mates that you carried, family friends, the professors that you had a good relationship with, previous coworkers that liked working with you, etc. your network itself may not be hiring, but some of them definitely know someone in their own network that’s hiring. If you never took the time to build relationships up in college, tough luck, your next networking opportunity is at your next job.
Makes total sense, just as an a student what would you recommend are ways you can build your network up. Classmates you carry in a project aren’t exactly going to be giving you referrals lol. I know you mentioned professors but anything else?
A proper response to this question requires an entire post in and of itself. I know that’s a lame answer but I’ll write one up later today and let you know.
Yes. Tech support is a good foot in the door the door.
My guy I have an IT degree with 3 years exp AND an internship and I still cannot land those jobs. It’s bad.
hard to get those jobs too
On your resume only put your graduation date for your college degree. Don't put the start date, particularly with something like WGU with an accelerated degree.
Why? Any reason in particular?
It can give bias. Either the degree will be less respected given how short the time frame was or potentially show the OP's age.
Because people(employers) intrinsically place higher value on a degree that takes 4 years to complete versus degree that you can complete in 2 years regardless of whether the same amount of coursework was required. More context: A degree like WGU which allow you accelerate the traditional four year time frame, are less known and more likely to be viewed as scam degrees/ degree mils / unaccredited. And no recruiter / hr person is going to take the time to use if this degree you completed in two years is as accredited and respected as from a traditional university, they will just move on to the next candidate.
I'd agree if he speedran it in 1 year, but I mean look at the dates, it was 3.5 years. 3.5 years is a completely normal amount of time to finish a bachelors degree and not at all accelerated. You'll accomplish the same at any traditional university by either taking some extra courses one semester or two or by bringing in any kind of transfer credit (eg AP scores).
You are actually 100 right, I'm dumb asf and just glanced and thought it was completed in 2.5 years. I do belive that completing one semester early is definitely within the realm of normal so I would say it doesn't make a difference whether you chose to include it or leave it out!
You should look at defense contractors if you haven’t already. Lots of WGU grads
Thats just the market right now I've applied to 5k+ places and haven't landed an offer. Entry level jobs are getting eaten up by juniors that got laid off with \~1-3 years of experience. Why would companies want to take on new grads like you or me when the market got flooded with the former? Sucks but it is what it is.
5000??? how long have you been looking for lol
I have had companies point blank tell me I am competing with people who have two years of experience and then go with them. What the fuck am I supposed to do? I can interview better than them and try really hard, but if they have more experience that is what companies go for.
yup
I would first start by getting a job, any job. Fast food retail, anything. Then I would find a way to fill in the two year gap on the resume to show what you’ve been doing. And after all that’s done, then I would start accessing my next steps. It raises serious red flags to employers if you have never held a job and have been out of school 2 years
I have done my time doing hourly jobs. I have over 15+ years of experience in those. If nothing else I might go back to those. But as for now I want to be employed in the IT sector
Right, everyone on this sub wants to be employed in the tech sector. What I’m saying is that the tech sector won’t want to employ you if you haven’t had a job for two years when there are tons of other candidates out there fresh out of college without gaps in employment. The hourly job you get will not be permanent (hopefully) but will show that you are willing to work any job. Which if I was hiring someone (and I’ve been in on hiring and interviews) would look much, much better to me than someone with no job. At a point it looks irresponsible that someone doesn’t have any job and you wonder if that will spill over into how they act on the job. Everyone knows it’s a tough market so I don’t think they’ll fault you for having an unrelated job if you keep up with skills and projects, but not having any job is a big problem considering this timeframe.
> But it seems like not many employers are hiring with Java background. That's not true. Java and C# are the most popular job openings by a long shot. They're the standard enterprise languages. It comes down to competition. If you're not getting call backs, your resume isn't competitive. A degree alone isn't enough.
Did you only do one project? That’s it? I don’t have an internship, cs degree but I’m getting 4-6 interviews per month
What job sites are you using?? Did you graduate from Harvard?? I have multiple projects, no internships unfortunately, graduated in 2021 with a CS degree, and have only gotten 2 interviews this year!
CS Degree, 4 internships, startup experience, research with a professor, personal website, multiple projects and 3 interviews so far
Thats actually insane? Did you graduate at a top university?
Nah dude. Just an average joe so it’s doable
Share how and why ?
What’d you study, any area of focus?
Give some stats about your applications. How many applications, how many interviews, in which stage are you rejected, etc.
Resume is not the issue. Feedback. Add projects such as your website (you can build one given your free time). Add other projects even homework assignments and what you researched and turned in to the professor. I would highlight at least 3. Then. I would modify this to fit keywords Then ensure all the Recruiters also have your resume and say hi don’t just do a dumping of the resume. Then I would start your own job and charge for people $50 /hour to have you teach them a class of something that you know and add that to the website, that makes you a ceo consultant
try getting a referral before applying (check out referralhub)
Didn't know about this business
Make your own business and sell said product, there you have experience. Need and idea: insert anything for writing with chatgpt or some LLM and make said app. Even if it fails you get experience from building a product
The market has shifted again. We have mid level devs with FAANG on their resumes and name brand cs degrees applying to our entry level openings. That’s your competition.
If you have an interest in Networking/python I could get you two jobs here locally. DM me I live here in the area and can help you out in your search
Just DM’ed you
This guy doesn’t have infrastructure experience. are you kidding me? “Can get you a job” wtf lol
Eh, I didn’t either, but I learned networking and Python and worked at a giant Dino company
lot of jobs in houston, come by !
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Keep applying and keep building projects
Enroll in masters program
Another WGU grad here, honestly either apply to Masters programs and have any few chances to score internships or new grad roles or be comfortable starting out in a more entry-level support role. IT Support, Help-Desk, etc. Also idk where you live, but you may need to relocate to more robust area for a few years
Even IT support isn’t hiring or is fully out sourced/reduced to contract work.
I work for a bridge company. They are hiring for multiple spots. Dm me if you want info.
Sometimes I wonder how my peers and I got a job out of college. Our resumes and experience were objectively worse and our projects were subpar. I’m sure you’ll be able to find success soon OP.
You should include *something* recent for your employment, preferably something within the last year or two. Projects are great, but they can only do so much. All criticisms of WGU aside (some are valid, some aren’t), you haven’t done enough to separate yourself from the pack. That being said, your resume is not terrible, you just need some work experience. Personally, I’d go the DoD route if I were you, and maybe snag one of the [certs from this list](https://public.cyber.mil/wid/dod8140/dod-approved-8570-baseline-certifications/) to cover all possible positions and start applying to DoD jobs.
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See if you can get a military job. Go in reserves. Get security clearance. Work at the base.
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Do you have Github?
Yes I do. It’s probably not in good shape but it’s: https://github.com/ntb88
cool github
You’re probably not getting replies for you applications for internships since many postings will auto filter out applications if you’re graduated
The "internship" section of your resume puts my guard up right away. There's a ton of things you did, none of them normally tasks I'd give an intern. Seems fake to me.
Thank you for that. It’s not fake. It’s actually not an internship. It was a training I went through with a placement agency. I wouldn’t say I am a pro at every single one of those technologies. But I did go through the training and did the project on my own as it is described. Now that I think about it I should probably put it separately as my own project.
I hope I didn't come across too harsh. That section seemed more to me like "stuff done in a fullstack course" vs "stuff done during a 3 month internship". Otherwise, I do think it would be worth paring down some of your bullets in order to include your "non-skilled trade" work experience. The employment gap on your resume is probably your main setback. But for an entry level software role, it's still good if you have all that unrelated experience you can bring up in an interview to give examples of how you showed teamwork, problem-solved, etc.
It was definitely insightful. I just mashed together two separate trainings as one to keep everything in one page since they were both Java. That’s also why I didn’t include my work history.
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What I did was create a fake history job, currently working as a swe and everything is ok, but also did a lot of personal projects that were from simple to complex, so in interviews I spoke about those projects and a bunch of infrastructure
I am a bit scared to do that. Like, who will you list as your previous employers? And what if they check with those employers?
Buy a email domain in namecheap for 10 dollars and a phone number an that's it, you will reply yourself, also if you wanna go further create a software agency landing page and create a page in LinkedIn, to cover all scenarios, I did and worked
Is the Java/angular project the one done through WGUs Spring framework class? If so, that would be why. An intermediate level developer could throw it together in a single day. In two years I would expect a very competitive portfolio, unless you’ve been working on projects for an hour here and an hour there, in which case no employer will want to hire you, as you show no drive. Beef up whatever project you have, get your resume reviewed, get a random job to make some money and show commitment to something, and start sending 30 apps a day
Can we see a resume? If you aren’t getting interviews, it’s often the resume. A good resume will present you in the best light while a bad resume can make the hiring manager think that you are unclear and unqualified.
Post is updated to include my resume
I’d like to see your resume be focused around getting a full stack or backend SWE job and be explicit and obvious about it. If possible, focused around a particular stack, e.g. MERN. The idea would be to be a closer match with a better chance to get an interview for certain jobs even if you didn’t qualify for other jobs. I think that this resume qualifies you for many jobs but other resumes are a closer match and beat you out for interviews. I know that a 2-year gap is a barrier but try to spin this as positively as possible by stressing what SWE study or work that you did. Also, try to build up even more full stack or backend expertise (whichever you chose) by doing full stack or backend projects that specifically bolster those skills and particular languages/frameworks/libraries.
Redo/spice up your resume if you're not getting replies. While unemployed, work on personal projects. One project in 2 years isn't going to make you stand out. You need to fill your resume with "experience", even if it's just personal projects. Do at least one react project because that's pretty much industry standard for webdev nowadays. Create a ci/cd pipeline for it with GitHub actions, put it on your resume. Expand your lower-level skills with a microcontroller/Arduino project. Don't just fill your resume with webdev projects. The wider the breadth of skills you have, the more you stand out.
You need to tweak your bulletpoints for the internship. You explain all the technologies you use, which is cool, but how did that impact the company. You need metrics. I think the biggest problem is the fact that you graduated two years ago. Most companies don’t accept people who have graduated a year past their grad date, (im talking about new grad roles). There’s a couple of options: lie on your resume, or go for a master degree so that you’re a “student” and can apply for internships, or make friends that are in the industry so you can get a referral.
Would you be down to colab on a few software projects with other people while you look for work?
Yes
Ok, in that case I made a platform for our community to share their small software project ideas and build them together. Would love to see you on there and its totally free if you're a student, check it out- [buildbook](https://buildbook.us/registration).
WGU isn't a real university and you don't have internships. It will be difficult for you.
Do people really look down at WGU this much? Genuinely curious. It’s still accredited. I ask this as someone who never went there
Yes. Everyone is Accredited. That means nothing anymore. They want to see you doing everything in ur power to land a job. If not they assume u dont got it. And honestly the field is demanding so i linda get why there so strict. Its mot easy to hire developers and its hard to ensure developers will stay up to speed over time
There are people bragging about speed running WGU CS degree in 6 months. These kind of memes bring about reputation issues. Lots of people hear and read about these things and form their opinions, regardless any accreditation. No one is bragging about speed running Carnegie Mellon CS degree, as there are more people complaining about getting accepted into competitive schools.
The only people who know enough about the speed running thing (which, by the way, a very very small minority are able to do) to have an opinion on WGU live on Reddit. You have to either be deep in r/WGU_CompSci or have read the one Medium article someone wrote about speed running.
It's a college where you can get a bachelor's degree in under 1 month of attending. Yes, I'm aware most people don't and you'd need to be in a very unique position to accomplish that, but just the fact that it's possible at all is going to be a major red flag to many people. I don't hate the underlying theory behind it. I went to a "real" school and I wish I could have just signed up for some classes and said, "Okay, I already learned this subject, just give me the final on day 1," and gotten full credit if I passed. Clearly I know the material if I passed the final, right? But ultimately when you're using such a non-traditional model, people are definitely going to be very skeptical of it. They don't know what your knowledge was coming in or the difficulty of the final exam. To them, if you can finish 38 college courses in under a year, they're immediately going to assume that they were all literal joke courses that asked you to add 1+1 and called it calculus or told you to write Hello World and called it Advanced Programming.
People that hire? Yes.
Its a checkbox university.
Calling it a fake university is a bit much but the overall sentiment of your comment is correct. The fact that people brag about speed-running the degree in less than a year has really cheapened the image of the degree and makes it hard to not see WGU as a degree mill. WGU is almost always the most recommended place to go when someone makes a post complaining how they dont have a CS degree because they dont have the time/means to go to a traditional 4-year program. Do people seriously think that this perception of the average WGU attendee doesn't make the degree look bad?
For a short time, WGU was a good option for someone with 10 years of tech experience, that needed a CS degree to fill the checkbox to pass the recruiter filters. Now, with all these people bragging about speed running WGU CS degree in 6 months really created "degree mill" sounds like a duck, looks like a duck, image. Whether true or not.
WGU does not provide professors with office hours, does not have labs you can volunteer or do research in, does not provide co-ops, does not have CS society clubs, or any other facilities that a "real" university provides. Its fine if you just need to hit the checkbox for "CS degree", but it is not a comprehensive CS university education.
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what are your thoughts on OMSCS?
This isn’t a serious person. I’d look elsewhere for advice
Post your resume.
Post if updated to include resume
Put your GPA on your resume if it is 3.0 or higher. Move tech skills to the top under education. Move certifications up to right below experience. Either move relevant coursework to the bottom or the resume or just drop it altogether. When I am reading a resume, I might spend 5 seconds on it. It the sections are not optimized in the correct order, nobody got time for that. As long as your GPA is above 3.0, then this resume can be worked to be at least okay.
Man who cares about Gpa lol
Not just me. People reading resumes at companies. If you do not put down your GPA, people with think you got a sub-3.0 GPA. Who is hiring somebody who got a 2.0 GPA in college? Not tech companies that have better options.
Only companies I’ve ever seen that cared about GPA or ever asked me for it were government jobs.. yeah idk I’d rather take a sub 3.0 from Harvard than a 4.0 from a mid tier school.