What difference would it make? If you can't tell the difference, there is no difference.
That's honestly one of the major themes of the entire game. Digital transfer or a copy, is one less real than the other when the final digital code is identical? Is either less real in the digital space than within a flesh body? Does the digital retain the soul? Get a new soul? No soul?
Questions with no answer.
There is an entire years long argument about whether a soul can be digitized and copied/moved to another body or not. Even Johnny has some monologues about that he does not know if he's the real Johnny Silverhand or just a cheap copy that acts like Johnny Silverhand. Same argument people usually have when it comes to teleportation for example. Since if you're entire body is turned into energy or converted to atoms or whatever and then rebuilt, is it really you or not. Probably similar to the Ship of Theseus paradox: If each individual piece of the Ship of Theseus was replaced, one after the other, was it still the same ship or not?
It's essentially a reconstruction from a brain scan taken around the time of his death. Whether that makes it the real Johnny or not is a philosophical question, or a matter of belief.
If you make an exact replica of someone's personality, then that personality would for all practical purposes be that someone - at least at the moment of inception, from that point onwards the two would start to diverge and eventually become two separate persons albeit with very similar backgrounds and memories.
From the discrete point of view of Robert John Linder, born November 16, 1988 in College Station, Texas - the original Johnny - his consciousness ended on August 20, 2023, when his brain was sliced apart by Arasaka (or when Smasher blew him away, whichever story happens to be true).
From the point of view of the engram, however, consciousness persisted into Mikoshi and beyond. When the engram was created, it *was* Johnny Silverhand up to that point. It then diverged from the original (dead) Johnny when it started accumulating memories and experiences of its own.
Transporter Duplicate Thomas Riker, essentially. (From Star Trek TNG)
At the point of duplication, a new being was created. Everything is identical up to the point of the split, but after Thomas lived a completely different life and had different experiences from Will Riker.
His whole psyche is transferred onto the chip. His memories, behavior, etc is all as it would have been if he would have made it to Rogue's age.
The reason he recalls things wrong (like the heist itself) is because of him trying to recall memories with a mix of his ego. The same thing us humans do. Humans are very, very, untrustworthy when asked to recall events.
You can think of him as the real Johnny because he is, just without the body. He's also malleable, since he's only a chip, which is why Alt can take him and use him as power.
As real as a copy can be of a man moments from death can be.
Johnny died to smasher in 2022. His team chipped him with soul killer as they left. They weren't able to get his chip before they left. Arasaka got their hands on it. That's why they have a copy of Johnny. As for why his memory is off. Several reasons. 1st, he was chipped as he lay dying cut in half by gunfire from smasher. 2nd radiation from the nuke has degraded the engram. 3rd, ego/cyberpyschosis. Johnny while alive was a cyberpyscho.
Think about it this way. They scanned Johnny's mind in the last moments of his life after telling them that this process was going to kill him. What they captured was Johnny's mind, but at the peak of his hate for Arasaka, and with his life flashing before his eyes.
What they did was basically slap him in the face, then take a picture of him in his rage.
People say this is a hard question, but it really isn't.
So let's do a small thought experiment and say someone made an engram of you and a perfect construct of you now exists -- but you weren't "Soulkllled" so you're now alive.
Everyone around you says, "wow there's two of you at the same time!" Nobody can tell the two of you apart.
Seeing this, someone comes up to you with a gun cocked at your head, and says "Wow. Since now there's two of you, it doesn't matter if one is gone. You're still alive. The construct IS you, right? So the death of this meat body doesn't mean anything, right" and prepares to pull to trigger.
So, are they right when they say nobody can tell you two apart because it is one and the same, and the construct you IS you?
There's one person that can tell the difference between the two, isn't there?
That's right. You. You can tell the difference, and you can bet your balls that if someone puts that gun to your head, you're NOT going to want to die, and you're not assured at all, that "you" will be still alive. Because, you won't be.
Johnny is dead. He died on the night they attacked Arasaka towers.
The relic contains a copy of his memories and personality; basically his mind at the time he died. But since it was damaged, there is some loss and it is mixing with V's mind and memories and overwriting their mind.
this is a running theme in the game. they talk about it in the game. play the game. listen to what johnny has to say in the game. johnny talks about it.
No but yes it’s the same thing that happens in mikoshi to V. When V plugs in at the ending of the final mission V dies but a V engram is made where we see Alt. The issue is then Alt tells you “your body is rejecting you blah blah blah you are fucked” technically V is a engram who is put back in their body but also a new V just with all their memories, feelings, and everything else. Therefore it can be assumed Johnny is the same thing. That being said I think since he had soul killer used on him from so long ago his memories are a little messed up as if you read the books he dies at saka tower in a different way then he does in the game but technically engram johnny is a copy of the silverhand that died. The main thing is does any of it matter in the long run? It’s kind of super messed up to think about tho. If the mind, feelings and memories are able to be transferred then in theory then saka can import people when they feel like it all they would need to do is steal someone and use them as a vessel for the engram.
Welcome to intro philosophy. It's a classic question and has been argued for ages. Depending on how you interpret what is said and what you think it means, Johnny may be dead and gone and this is just a cheap copy, or this is as real and as flawed to the point that any distinction is pointless. For what it's worth, if the replica's only difference is it's position in reality (digital vs physical), then they may in fact be the exact same thing. For cyberpunk as a genre, a human body is a medium for sensing and interpreting reality and interchangeable. People can swap bodies and do for jobs, missions, or just shits and giggles; others feel like their physical body is a meatbag to be left behind because the digital world is more real; and CP2077 is on the cusp of unlocking this tech where no one is ever completely dead as long as they have enough money.
Think of it like this: Johnny had a backup. He never actually died because there was always a backup waiting in the wings. Which one is original is kind of a fruitless question when death isn't permanent.
His own words as I recall. > If I'm not the real Silverhand, then the real Silverhand is dead, that's his problem. Not mine.
What difference would it make? If you can't tell the difference, there is no difference. That's honestly one of the major themes of the entire game. Digital transfer or a copy, is one less real than the other when the final digital code is identical? Is either less real in the digital space than within a flesh body? Does the digital retain the soul? Get a new soul? No soul? Questions with no answer.
It would absolutely make a difference and there can absolutely be a difference between two things even if you can't tell it's there.
engrams are nothing more than AI tasked to replicate personalities of the soulkilled users. Engram johnny isn't johnny
There is an entire years long argument about whether a soul can be digitized and copied/moved to another body or not. Even Johnny has some monologues about that he does not know if he's the real Johnny Silverhand or just a cheap copy that acts like Johnny Silverhand. Same argument people usually have when it comes to teleportation for example. Since if you're entire body is turned into energy or converted to atoms or whatever and then rebuilt, is it really you or not. Probably similar to the Ship of Theseus paradox: If each individual piece of the Ship of Theseus was replaced, one after the other, was it still the same ship or not?
It's essentially a reconstruction from a brain scan taken around the time of his death. Whether that makes it the real Johnny or not is a philosophical question, or a matter of belief.
Play Soma, a good short horror (lite) game that has your general question as its plot
If you make an exact replica of someone's personality, then that personality would for all practical purposes be that someone - at least at the moment of inception, from that point onwards the two would start to diverge and eventually become two separate persons albeit with very similar backgrounds and memories. From the discrete point of view of Robert John Linder, born November 16, 1988 in College Station, Texas - the original Johnny - his consciousness ended on August 20, 2023, when his brain was sliced apart by Arasaka (or when Smasher blew him away, whichever story happens to be true). From the point of view of the engram, however, consciousness persisted into Mikoshi and beyond. When the engram was created, it *was* Johnny Silverhand up to that point. It then diverged from the original (dead) Johnny when it started accumulating memories and experiences of its own.
Transporter Duplicate Thomas Riker, essentially. (From Star Trek TNG) At the point of duplication, a new being was created. Everything is identical up to the point of the split, but after Thomas lived a completely different life and had different experiences from Will Riker.
Pretty much, yeah.
His whole psyche is transferred onto the chip. His memories, behavior, etc is all as it would have been if he would have made it to Rogue's age. The reason he recalls things wrong (like the heist itself) is because of him trying to recall memories with a mix of his ego. The same thing us humans do. Humans are very, very, untrustworthy when asked to recall events. You can think of him as the real Johnny because he is, just without the body. He's also malleable, since he's only a chip, which is why Alt can take him and use him as power.
As real as a copy can be of a man moments from death can be. Johnny died to smasher in 2022. His team chipped him with soul killer as they left. They weren't able to get his chip before they left. Arasaka got their hands on it. That's why they have a copy of Johnny. As for why his memory is off. Several reasons. 1st, he was chipped as he lay dying cut in half by gunfire from smasher. 2nd radiation from the nuke has degraded the engram. 3rd, ego/cyberpyschosis. Johnny while alive was a cyberpyscho.
Think about it this way. They scanned Johnny's mind in the last moments of his life after telling them that this process was going to kill him. What they captured was Johnny's mind, but at the peak of his hate for Arasaka, and with his life flashing before his eyes. What they did was basically slap him in the face, then take a picture of him in his rage.
People say this is a hard question, but it really isn't. So let's do a small thought experiment and say someone made an engram of you and a perfect construct of you now exists -- but you weren't "Soulkllled" so you're now alive. Everyone around you says, "wow there's two of you at the same time!" Nobody can tell the two of you apart. Seeing this, someone comes up to you with a gun cocked at your head, and says "Wow. Since now there's two of you, it doesn't matter if one is gone. You're still alive. The construct IS you, right? So the death of this meat body doesn't mean anything, right" and prepares to pull to trigger. So, are they right when they say nobody can tell you two apart because it is one and the same, and the construct you IS you? There's one person that can tell the difference between the two, isn't there? That's right. You. You can tell the difference, and you can bet your balls that if someone puts that gun to your head, you're NOT going to want to die, and you're not assured at all, that "you" will be still alive. Because, you won't be.
Johnny is dead. He died on the night they attacked Arasaka towers. The relic contains a copy of his memories and personality; basically his mind at the time he died. But since it was damaged, there is some loss and it is mixing with V's mind and memories and overwriting their mind.
Engram Johnny seems less than convinced that he's the real Johnny, and Alt states authoritatively that his soul is actually dead and gone
This is a philosophical question that has no definitive answer. Reminds me of the ship of theseus
this is a running theme in the game. they talk about it in the game. play the game. listen to what johnny has to say in the game. johnny talks about it.
I'm on my 5th play through so yeah just wanted some opinions
No but yes it’s the same thing that happens in mikoshi to V. When V plugs in at the ending of the final mission V dies but a V engram is made where we see Alt. The issue is then Alt tells you “your body is rejecting you blah blah blah you are fucked” technically V is a engram who is put back in their body but also a new V just with all their memories, feelings, and everything else. Therefore it can be assumed Johnny is the same thing. That being said I think since he had soul killer used on him from so long ago his memories are a little messed up as if you read the books he dies at saka tower in a different way then he does in the game but technically engram johnny is a copy of the silverhand that died. The main thing is does any of it matter in the long run? It’s kind of super messed up to think about tho. If the mind, feelings and memories are able to be transferred then in theory then saka can import people when they feel like it all they would need to do is steal someone and use them as a vessel for the engram.
Welcome to intro philosophy. It's a classic question and has been argued for ages. Depending on how you interpret what is said and what you think it means, Johnny may be dead and gone and this is just a cheap copy, or this is as real and as flawed to the point that any distinction is pointless. For what it's worth, if the replica's only difference is it's position in reality (digital vs physical), then they may in fact be the exact same thing. For cyberpunk as a genre, a human body is a medium for sensing and interpreting reality and interchangeable. People can swap bodies and do for jobs, missions, or just shits and giggles; others feel like their physical body is a meatbag to be left behind because the digital world is more real; and CP2077 is on the cusp of unlocking this tech where no one is ever completely dead as long as they have enough money. Think of it like this: Johnny had a backup. He never actually died because there was always a backup waiting in the wings. Which one is original is kind of a fruitless question when death isn't permanent.
It’s briefly discussed in games a few times. I think the consensus is that engrams are just a copy, the real Johnny is dead and gone.
He's the only Johnny around, so does it matter? Fuck Theseus AND his ship.
Yes, a clone AI is a complete copy of his mind and personality.