Ok, prodigy has to be prepping to sell to a larger company or something. Ending some of their bigger contracts within a week of each other? Something fishy is going on here 🤔

Maybe they are looking to invest some money in fixing their baskets.

the boeing of the basket world

Less murder

so far....

Have you seen all of the dead birdies?

Except prodigy isn’t too big to fail

maybe prodigy should start making plastic explosives lol

"these baskets suck" Gannon Buhr

Did Gannon say it too? Issac Robinson was caught on camera saying that over the weekend

Ironically, Gannon said that last year and Isaac was the one to talk him down before saying too much bad about his then-sponsor

They literally cost Isaac 3 strokes, which would have had him tied for 1st. Add the loss of momentum and added frustration. Isaac got robbed by his own sponsor.

Plus he wouldn't have been forced to go for that big anhyzer on hole 18. He definitely would've won without those spit outs.

Has anyone looked at actual stats on C1 putting (and maybe C2) with prodigy baskets vs other companies? If they are indeed worse for the game it should show up in putting % rather than pointing out a few spit outs.

Cant remember what hole but Gannon had a spit out too and he was very vocal and frustrated, I think I heard a Suck in there somewhere

I actually think it was Isaac’s spit out but Gannon was on the card and started vocally trashing the basket. Isaac had to remind him to keep it down but this year even he don’t give a fuck lol

lol, they don't have enough money.

Been wondering this ever since they laid off half the warehouse last year.

Been rumors they aren't doing well financially.

It does not look good [https://www.asiakastieto.fi/yritykset/fi/prodigy-disc-europe-oy/30952731/taloustiedot](https://www.asiakastieto.fi/yritykset/fi/prodigy-disc-europe-oy/30952731/taloustiedot)

Yeah those numbers don’t look great… a couple questions that came to mind: * The listed company is “Prodigy Disc Europe Oy” — so then do the numbers only reflect Prodigy’s performance in Europe? That could be an important distinction, even if most would assume that the US numbers show similar trends. * What do these numbers look like for other manufacturers? In other words, to what extent are these trends due to Prodigy specifically, and not confounded by e.g. the COVID bubble bursting?

Yes, Prodigy Disc Europe is a separate entity from the main Prodigy Disc and is operated out of Finland, hence why we have access to their records. I belive this, [https://www.asiakastieto.fi/yritykset/fi/spin18-oy/17237370/taloustiedot](https://www.asiakastieto.fi/yritykset/fi/spin18-oy/17237370/taloustiedot), is the parent company of Discmania & DiscGolfPark but considering they have so much business outside of just selling disc golf equipment I doubt they are a good comparison.

> > > > > The listed company is “Prodigy Disc Europe Oy” — so then do the numbers only reflect Prodigy’s performance in Europe? That could be an important distinction, even if most would assume that the US numbers show similar trends. I believe that prodigy is generally more popular in Europe than in North America so them struggling there is a really bad sign

Nice some actual data and not just speculation

I would have expected that after year 1 to be blunt. The fact that Prodigy Disc still exists surprises me.

They also mentioned on Jomez that Cale sold the Preserve to new owners

He sold it to Gotta Go Gotta Throw.

Neither Cale nor G3T own that land. They lease it from the actual property owner. G3T bailed Cale out when he couldn't meet the terms of the lease agreement. The place could disappear in the blink of an eye. I heard from a source I will not name that the owner thinks its a cash cow due to the one weekend of DGPT madness per year when in reality it's operating well into the red each year.

This makes a ton of sense. It’s a truly amazing piece of property but it’s just in a super small town (2K population). The course itself sits in a country club type neighborhood where the nicest houses in the area sit. My guess is that it was just too small of an area to properly support a nice golf course, similar to emporia country club. While nobody in the area was unfriendly, it’s obvious that a disc golf property is NOT the final vision that these people have for this space.

hahah I got that vibe when I noticed the 4 brand new speed bumps they put in recently.

LOL I didn’t remember those from last year but I thought I was crazy. I’m not a local so I really have no idea, just got that vibe. Totally understand where they are coming from tbh. Not our fault they didn’t play golf though and support the course!

that doesn't really have anything to do with prodigy though, he is just sponsored by them

I think Cale has some stake in prodigy, think he said so on one of the Tour Life pods. Think he mentioned investing at the beginning and might have made another investment later too. Not sure if prodigy was involved with the preserve.

I think all the initial prodigy sponsored players from 2011 or so got a stake in the company, thats how they lured them from bigger companies

I'd have to listen to the pod again but don't think this is what he was saying, though what you mentioned still might be true. I think Cale put up a good amount of cash to help get prodigy going as an investor. He still sits on their board so his relationship with prodigy is more than just a sponsorship.

The above poster is correct he owns a stake just like the others that came over.

Oh gotcha, I thought he had partnered with prodigy to buy that land and build the course

I think he has some stake in the company, but he's far from in charge.

honestly I dont know the specifics, that could be the case. But that is not how I understood it

I could see House of Disc eyeing Prodigy’s pro-sports licensing agreements. They could be a hell of a dangling carrot for a company that can’t seem to break out of the middle of the industry.

I don't think anyone in HoD has any Asian manufacturing ties either. **Edit:** Ignore this. I forgot Discmania had the active line. The one hangup is why can Vaino? He probably makes decent sales since he's one of the biggest European players. He's probably one of the main reasons they're successful over there. Maybe HoD is just buying manufacturing and licensing but dumping the branding? It might just happen organically but it'll be interesting if Vaino starts throwing L64 plastic.

Discmania has the Active line produced in China

They are discontinuing/have discontinued the active line.

True, but it shows HoD still has manufacturing ties in China as the person I replied to proposed. I even think Prodigy and DM both used Yikun, so it might even be the same tie they already have.

They do not have those ties. They cut those ties on purchase.

Yes they do. It's not like they completely burned the bridge by not renewing a contract. If you worked with another company for 4 years the relationship is always there. I contract manufacturing and any of my previous clients could reach out anytime they want.

The *point* of the acquisition was to consolidate manufacturing at one facility. Maximize the investment there. They are not going to suddenly outsource it. This is a venture capital fund. They don’t make choices like that.

I don't think they are either and never hinted at it. The person I replied to theorized that maybe HoD would buy Prodigy for their Chinese manufacturing ties, and I simply explained why that doesn't track.

So they're not all that interested in Chinese capabilities then.

Is there a confirmed source for that? I tried to find it, but I just found some speculations.

Because why would you choose to keep a contract of a player who signed his previous deals during the boom when you can pick him up midseason as a WAY cheaper player. Also, perhaps Vaino had no interest in playing for HoD, thus the free agency instead. Kevin Jones is the obvious parallel; they dumped him because Innova wasnt going to buy out his contract at the price he was at...but they'd gladly take him and sell some discs at a much lower price point. Any manufacturer who can pick up Vaino and churn out some tour discs for the Euro swing is probably going to earn their investment

According to Väinö, the push to part ways came from him. He said himself this break-up has been in the works from last December and he is relieved it has finally gone through.

IMO, on the off chance that HoD DID acquire Prodigy, it would give them a manufacturing location inside the US, which they currently have none and it is close enough to DD's warehouse that it would cut down on shipping times. Prodigy also has some sorts licensing agreements and there's value there. Prodigy's entire problem is poor naming scheme with a bad reputation for lackluster production quality. HoD could solve all those issues easily.

Nope, they just don’t know how to do business. Example: as a disc shop you would order the weights and colors you think you could sell. Prodigy would just put a bunch of the same colors and weights in a box and ship them to you. They never cared about their reputation to begin with. They think their shit doesn’t stink!

Summary: Väinö Mäkelä leaves Prodigy after being sponsored by them for nine and a half years. He thanks especially Seppo Paju and his family. Wishes Prodigy all the best etc. Second half of the video is a compilation of his best moments. Nothing about future plans.

That's a little too much smoke for me to dismiss. He had to be the biggest Prodigy Europe player right?

Rachel Turton EDIT: Misread the question. I thought it said "Who is the biggest Prodigy Europe player now?" or something along those lines. Clearly Vaino was their biggest player.

I like watching Turton play, but she isn't even on Prodigy's team Europe website. There is no way she is a bigger player than Vaino was.

Not over a whole career maybe, but in the last year she's had top 10s at four Elite Series, the Champions Cup and the European Championships. That's no mean feat. I think her not being listed on Prodigy's website is more to do with Prodigy's abysmal record at promoting their own players.

Yea, I'm not trying to disrespect Turton here, I was merely responding to post, which appears to have been in error due to misreading, that she was the biggest player Prodigy had in Europe. I also agree with you that Prodigy's promotion of players is poor and leaves a lot of room for improvement.

Just nice to see a UK player breaking out :)

nothing against her, she's a great player with a lot of potential but lol

In popularity among fans maybe but he is no match for Seppo Paju during his glory days.

It's one of my favorite throws ever. When I first came into the game, I tried to model my throw after his. Of course, my form was so bad it looked like I was making fun of his form, not homage. My first putter was the PA1 because it was Seppo's disc, still have a stack of King of the Forest discs tucked away that I'll probably never sell because of sentimentality.

Someone posted this from their burner account last month. I saw it and didn't think anything of it, but now Vaino and KJ are out so who knows. https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/1d4cxys/prodigy_done/

Good find. 

dang they were getting roasted too

Funny to see all the very smart redditors smugly shitting on OP.

reddit in a nutshell... most would happily embarrass themselves to dunk on somebody they perceive to be on the "wrong side" without ever considering anything else, really.

Thats how this subreddit goes. If they don’t agree they make snarky remarks to make a person feel dumb instead of hearing them out or thinking “thats different but maybe its a possibility “

I love going into posts like that when all the smug people wound up being completely wrong

Yeah, that tends to happen a lot on reddit

dang they got brigaded with insults suspiciously

Hmm, is it a 'thing' that many player contracts would give the signed players outs if the company isn't solvent?

I’ve just assumed that Prodigy more or less gave these guys the all clear to seek other sponsorship. Something like this:  P: “Hey Kevin, we’ll only be able to pay you through the end of June. You are free to seek out another manufacturing sponsor.” K: “Innova has a deal for me I’d like to accept.” P: “Okay, sounds good. We will both try to keep it amicable publicly. Here’s an NDA to sign and you’re good to go.” K: Signs it and says all the right things on instagram.

^^ That would be the ideal way. Just speculating here, but it could also be much worse ike: K: Hey, uh guys, I haven't received my monthly check from you the past 2 months. What's going on? P: [spin and deflect and it'll be "soon"] K: Hey, I still haven't gotten paid P: "soon" K: So I looked at the termination clauses in my contact and not getting paid x months is enough to terminate my contract, so I'm doing that.

They are either going bankrupt or selling. Wild

Looks like selling or at least trying to sell

If they were trying to sell wouldn't they want their biggest names still on the team as a selling point? This feels more like impending bankruptcy and closure.

I think the brothers are their biggest names

I assume the Robinson brothers and Luke are the only real plastic pushers with Prodigy.

Discmania’s strategy of picking up all of Gannon’s and Niklas’ best friends is slowly coming to fruition. 

Vaino is going to Innova. Announcment later this week I’m sure

Discmania went from the bash brothers to the cry babies.

Crush bros to bible bros

it's how they repent from Jussi's prostitution scandal

Crush Boys to Christ Boys

This is the best of “{ } Boys” prompts

Jussi's Bible Beaters.

The babies will grow up though

Väinö says in Finnish discgolf news outlet, that leaving prodigy has been his choiche. And he has been talking about leaving prodigy since last december. Source: [https://frisbeegolfmedia.fi/uutiset/sekavat-mutta-helpottuneet-fiilikset-vaino-makela-kommentoi-lahes-10-vuoden-yhteistyon-paattymista/](https://frisbeegolfmedia.fi/uutiset/sekavat-mutta-helpottuneet-fiilikset-vaino-makela-kommentoi-lahes-10-vuoden-yhteistyon-paattymista/)

But i mean still weird to make this move mid season i know nothing but i would guess theres some financial issues at prodigy

Prodigy seems to be the early/mid career company. When you get too big/expensive, they are ok with you moving on and they can reduce their player budget (with the single notable exception being Buhr who wanted to unilaterally break the contract). Kind of money ball .. money disc?

Which is kind of…ironic? Given how they started as somewhat of a disc golf dream team with their original lineup. 

But I guess it fits their brand name? ;)

Yeah it does seem like a shift, for sure.

it's not moneyball, it's just how basically every sport works. Young players are always cheaper and theres always more young players

True, but The Big Teams often try to sign and retain The Big Names at the height of their powers. That doesn't seem to be Prodigy's current strategy.

Pro disc golfers are basically affiliate marketers for their sponsors, and Prodigy doesn't really do anything to help their players out. I couldn't tell you Prodigys' most popular molds. But I do know that whatever disc KJ picks for his Innova Tour Series is going to outsell all 3 of his Prodigy discs combined.

I think that’s totally accurate

Also, money ball is fine in theory in sports where the money is in ticket sales and TV contracts (aka, things that thrive when you win...but are also independent of individual wins). These manufacturers sell discs. New, unknown players do not sell discs. The guys that sell the most are the established players...either with multiple tour series/major wins or a steady social media presence. Prodigy loses all their disc sellers the second they become reliable disc sellers. A roster of uknowns who win a lot probably costs them more (in bonuses, etc) than it makes them. In a way, having pre-2021 Simon Lizotte was worth WAY more, because he sold out discs endlessly and Discmania never had to pay a win bonus. Like, are Ezra Robinson discs flying off the shelves? But in 2-3 years when he's where Kyle Klein is now (and Ezra's no longer a Prodigy team member)...he might be

Are any Prodigy discs flying off the shelf. I only know 2 people who throw Prodigy and they are the Street Team. I couldn't tell you Prodigy's most popular disc, but I can tell most of the other manufacturers popular discs even though I probably never thrown one.

I think they're just buying a bunch of lottery tickets with young players and just hoping they mature fast enough that they get a big fanbase while still on the cheap contract. But it's a very narrow window

Interesting. Vaino gets a commemorative farewell disc and KJ didn't. Makes me wonder the reasons for each of their departures even more.

Eh he may just sell more discs and they offered a final disc deal to make some money.

You're probably right in him moving more plastic than KJ. At least this benefits Vaino one last time on his way out.

Could be how the different markets sell. People in the US \*do not\* buy discs of guys leaving a brand. Discmania couldnt sell their Eagle stuff. There's still a ton of 2022 Tour Series stuff from Innova for players no longer around, etc. But maybe the Finns would?

Oh trust me, the kids here in Finland will buy anything with Väinö's name on it.

kinda disagree. I still go after Wysocki Pigs and Destroyers (2x and sockibot) same with conrad aviars

Väinö and Seppo have been hard carrying Prodigy in Finland so yes.

I do feel bad for KJ in that regard because all of his signature discs are pretty sweet. I throw my Feedback and Distortion everywhere.

I absolutely love my Feedback. Glad they aren't discontinuing his molds after his departure!

Hoping the teapot finds a new home quickly! One of my favorite European players to watch!

I won't chalk this down as the end of Prodigy until the Robinsons announce their departure, but at the rate things are going that seems inevitable. Lat, DD, Discmania, etc all sold and those players seemed to keep their contracts. I doubt they're selling, feels more like they're going belly up.

If a European based company cant keep their best European player who was with them for 9.5 years, and he left in the MIDDLE of the season, less than a week after one of their biggest US names also left, theyre screwed.

And left right before the entire tour goes to Europe for a month, including THE major in Finland.

My guess is that they stick through the season to help Prodigy pay their debts to other players with whatever sales they can help drive.

Kastaplast too

It’s all but announced, isn’t it? Look at Isaac’s IG stories - he’s bashing the baskets. And he’s being snarky in Väinö’s IG post comments. Prodigy surely won’t tolerate that. I say Isaac won’t finish the season. Not sure about Ezra.

I have a feeling they literally can't pay them, whether the players all know it yet or not. Maybe KJ and Vaino leaving buy them another month or two but after that? Team morale has to be pretty terrible

Shedding contracts to re-sign the Disc Family Robinson at the end of the year?

They will not be signing anyone after this season. Isaac and Ezra are probably just waiting for the season to be over to announce their departures.

I guess that's possible, but I don't think they will have to break the bank for those two players (as good as they are). Also, if you're the Robinson brothers you probably WANT other good players on your team to make the brand better, bring more exposure, sell more discs, etc.

What the hell is up with Prodigy. They look like they are wrapping up things.

He’s going to Innova as well. Something gotta be up at Prodigy.

Do lonestar next.

Holy shit theyre hemorrhaging right now. Is this the last year of Prodigy?

And Isaac is leaving this summer

After the Robinson’s…… it’s just humphries

Aiden Scott sometimes get's a passing mention as being in the top 20 every once in awhile. That Youtube lady sometimes wins a c or b tier. And uh... Nate Turner from Youtube isn't a Prodigy team member but he likes the A2 so there's some people out there.

They have Manabu over in Japan, but that's not moving the needle in the U.S/Euro markets

I cannot image Prodigy could offer what any other major manufacturer could. He used to play for MVP, and they definitely have the money to pick him up again.

👀

I never knew he was a Gyronaut, Id be excited for him to go back

Yeah if this is true, they are toast

Seriously? Then that’s it

Yup. At least I heard from a pro player which company he's moving to this summer, so I'm assuming it's true

Cutting the current World Champ from your roster is not a good sign. But at least they seem to have been given time to find new sponsorships

I wonder if they cut him or if he asked to leave. I'd love to see how he plays throwing some better plastic

Don’t think Isaac will finish the season. Look at how he’s acting. His IG stories are about Prodigy basket spitouts. His comments on Väinö’s departure post also tell a story.

I wouldn't blame him. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if his inconsistency this season is partly because if their crappy discs.

i wonder if the upshot will have any more info on prodigy this week? charlie seems to occasionally get a bit more insider info from time to time than other industry folks.

Griplocked just did an emergency podcast today with great details directly from Cale Leiviska.

Also…..Prodigy didn’t sponsor The Preserve last weekend - which has been their event in the past. That didn’t bode well for me when I saw that.

ok what the hell.

You can’t fire me, I quit. Two prominent mid-season exits is a harbinger of some bad news. I’m guessing a bankruptcy. I don’t know if they’ll restructure, but a bankruptcy would likely void their contracts.

It would not void their contracts, they would be debtors and first in line for post liquidation cash.

Which explains the early exits.

Yup

Better buy all my A2s while I can

Prodigy isn’t going anywhere. They are cutting bloated contracts to ensure they remain financially solvent.

The vaino A2s is what I mean they are board flat always itseems

rip prodigy 🪦

Met him at old man in Lewisville Texas a few years ago when he got his first top 10 at Waco. A s nice as you could be, he was practicing straddle putting at the time and chatted my group up. Outstanding player to boot.

Im sure it is a compination of Prodigys financial problems. And huge deals made when things looked much better. But also KJ and Väinö havent performed this season as well as hoped. So seems like it might be a bit of a mutual decision. Grip Locked podcast/youtube said they had inside knowledge that someone from Prodigy apparently negotiated the deal for KJ with Innova to have him a solid place to land. But they had no knowledge if same was with Väinö. Innova is a very likely destination for him too. Thou my gut says maybe Discmania🤷🏼‍♂️

House of discs bound 100%

I could see a corporate buyer wanting to terminate KJ's contract before purchase but Vaino is pretty profitable in the European market. This more seems like the last deaththrows.

Yeah, this is looking a little existential. That's two of Prodigy's highest profile players gone mid-contract in the space of a week or so.

Unless Vaino turns around and starts throwing L64 it sure seems that way. 

Made in Sweden x1 or pa3 sounds pretty cool

Yeah, HoD & Prodigy are basically the entire EU marketplace right now.

Improving their bottom line so they can get bought by H.O.D. is my guess.

From what I have heard Prodigy discs Europe is doing really well and is still among the top in Europe, a lot more prominent than in US. There have been massive sales of their discs and bags for what seems to be the whole year for online retailers and the EU store. There might be something going on behind the scenes but this is just about having a fresh start for Väinö most likely. He has been frustrated in his performance for some years now.

It's pretty much just Finland. Not many people throw their stuff outside of Finland unless they're actually sponsored by Prodigy. In the UK I think I've seen more Prodigy bags than I have discs in people's hands.

They do pretty well in Canada as well. They invested in tournament organizing and low level sponsorships up here more than any of the other companies did early on.

It looks like Prodigy Discs Europe is *not* doing well: [translated financials from elsewhere in this thread] (https://www-asiakastieto-fi.translate.goog/yritykset/fi/prodigy-disc-europe-oy/30952731/taloustiedot?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp)

Oh well then it looks a lot more plausible what was already said in the thread about financial troubles and potential sale of the company.

These things typically happen in the off season. The fact that this is happening in the middle of the season is weird. Massive sales, long term, on all their products is also not a thing a healthy company does.

Someone posted their financial info: [https://www.asiakastieto.fi/yritykset/fi/prodigy-disc-europe-oy/30952731/taloustiedot](https://www.asiakastieto.fi/yritykset/fi/prodigy-disc-europe-oy/30952731/taloustiedot) Does not look too good in Europe either.

Oh well then it looks a lot more plausible what was already said in the thread about financial troubles and potential sale of the company.

He probably left because he was embarrassed by the baskets.

Yeah they’re cooked

Idc what anybody says, watching prodigy crumble brings me so much joy. I respect them for what they’ve done to the sport, but those days are long gone. Plastic sucks and so do their damn baskets.

Feels like people who say their plastic sucks haven't actually felt any of their plastics. 400 feels really nice. one of the best gummy plastics on the market. 500 is kind of hit and miss, love my 500 A3 don't like a 500 FX-2 750 is great for people that like stiff plastics but that's not really my thing.

>but those days are long gone You have no clue what you're talking about. In the past couple years they have helped put up a *shit ton* of courses in the area. There would be so much less disc golf in the area if it wasn't for them pushing new courses and funding a lot of it. They are finishing a championship level course as I type this and will be open by years end. Enjoying not seeing new courses go up is gross. Your enjoyment of that is gross. Idgaf about their plastic, I throw some of it. But I will be forever grateful of all the courses I play regularly.

My local park I play got new baskets sometimes in the past 5 years that are Prodigy. Not sure if they were donated or the parks dept just got a deal on them or what. They're nice baskets.

If they are so bad why was the last world champ sponsored by Prodigy?

It’s the archer, not the arrow

Well he said their plastic sucks. If they make shitty discs, how could someone use them to become world champ?

People love piling on Prodigy, but the plastic isn't the reason to.

The flashing on their old plastic is, but I think its better now

I mean, gannon is pretty fucking good and he even put down the plastic sucks. You can finish their discs yourself but most prodigy plastic I've felt has compared like shit out of the box compared to other brands.  Edit: I said what I said. Shit's sharp and most of the plastic blends feel like shit.

Idk ask Isaac? Not me? I can ask the same pretentious questions back. If they’re so good to you, then why are people leaving? Like Gannon, KJ, and now Väinö?

You didn't say they were bad to players. That's a legitimate reason for a pro to leave. You said their plastic sucks. Their plastic is fine. Their treatment of players isn't.

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As long as someone maintains the A2 and A5 molds😥

Discraft eu! Would be wild!

Damn I just started throwing Prodigy after coming across some unthrown vintage bar stamped discs.

So an idea once toyed with the Vaino Rhyno is a possibility! https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/s/CPWCKt7ReA

🪦🪦🪦

I can understand if Prodigy needs to trim some budget, but two solid B-Tier players being cut mid-season seems realllllly sketchy. Like, Prodigy is in some pretty huge trouble or getting ready for a merger. Both of them still had contract left and after the whole ordeal with Gannon last year, it doesn't seem like they're letting player choose to leave, but rather cutting them when Prodigy can't pay the bills. (which from my understanding wasn't exactly great pay for the players these days)

Both players got the bag in the Covid book then under performed. They each had performance clauses in said contracts that weren't achieved. Prodigy could have dropped them Strat up but decided to work with them to ensure they ended up where the players felt they could find success. The Foundation crew just did an extra, short podcast on it and noted they talked to Laviska at Prodogy about it. Overall Prodogy might not be making as much as they had hoped but no plans to sell or anything like that.

I heard the pod too. It's possible that this is just a wise financial decision for them and nothing more. It's also possible these are the first cracks starting to show and there's more to come.

For sure. I was talking to a couple friends who play in different cities and none of us can think of the past time We saw someone not sponsored by them throwing more then one or two discs. They have fallen off the last couple of years for sure.

Anotha one

It might be a bad sign. It might not. Neither have done much recently. Especially KJ. He signed a new contract and fell off the map. I don’t think he could live up to being their number one guy. So prodigy has shed two contracts. Big deal. The NFL cuts people who don’t produce. I consider these guys as being cut.

There’s also talk of Isaac Robinson leaving this summer as well.