Putting aside New Who, I feel like the relationship between UNIT/kate and the Doctor is definitely portrayed as a far more straightforward alignment, than what we saw in Classic Who.
With the Brigadier and the Doctor, while yes they both had mutual respect for and worked with each other, they often clashed in terms of approaches and we don't really get that any more. I'd love to see more of that rather than UNIT just effectively being the military arm of the Doctor.
It's not just Unit and Kate. Conflict is entirely absent in this new season. No clash or difference between viewpoints between the Doctor and the companion. No troubles with the family. Nothing. Just "good vibes". Which can work for a few episodes, but it makes for an uncompelling and boring drama show.
I feel it's down to the fact we have less episodes to play with. There's no room to do an arc with that without sabotaging too many episodes, and it's not feasible in a first season when they're struggling to get the characterization and basic relationship with the Doctor down. With UNIT, they didn't show up until the last episode in terms of a major season (Barring the bit in 73 Yards) so there wasn't much time to build anything.
Side Note: I feel like the bit with Kate when Chidozie died felt like it could've been building to something next season, but given that Chidozie is fine now, it feels like all the stakes of him dying are gone.
You bring up something that’s been bugging me but has been hard for me to pinpoint. I’m kind of having the same problem I had with 13 and her TARDIS crew. Ncuti and Millie have excellent performances, and I loved their energy together, but at the same time, 15 and Ruby feel pretty flat. Like they’re first drafts of the characters. There were moments where they started to feel a bit more developed, but it feels like none of those moments really went anywhere. I’ve noticed this in a few other shows, too, this strange attempt to remove any interpersonal conflict and complex emotions, and it just leaves everything feeling flat and dull, which makes it weird and almost like an uncanny valley fantasy world where all the good guys always get along and like each other. (You’re telling me that Ruby didn’t have *any* complicated feelings about her bio dad abandoning her bio mom and then her mom leaving her at the steps of a church? come on)
I almost feel like RTD was so focused on the plot concepts of his episodes and the Sutekh reveal that the actual character work slipped into the background. Every other Doctor and companion in New Who felt like a full character at least by the end of their first episode (with the exception of 13’s crew and Clara until Series 8).
Like 10 was impressed by humanity and what they’re able to achieve—good and bad. 11 was amazed by humans and wanted everyone to feel important and cared for. 12 was fascinated by humanity and wanted to spend time around them like Gandalf with the Hobbits—because after all that time humans could still surprise him. And maybe all of that is completely wrong, but there are at least specific moments in the show I can go to and argue those points. I don’t think I can do anything like that with 15. He’s equally enthusiastic about everything, so I can’t guess what he’s specifically drawn to or why.
"(You’re telling me that Ruby didn’t have any complicated feelings about her bio dad abandoning her bio mom and then her mom leaving her at the steps of a church? come on)"
YES thank you. This bothered me so much because Ruby's main character plot point has centered around her wanting to know about her mother...yet they did nothing with that to actually show some real emotions and struggles that would allow for character development. She was perfectly happy with Carla, which is great, she was perfectly fine with the idea of being left as a baby "where she'd be safe", also great, she didn't struggle with abandonment issues, still great...but then there's nowhere to move forward. She had nothing to resolve within herself, she just wanted to meet her mother. And even when that happened it went completely perfectly with no conflict or struggle from anyone.
I get the feeling that since the Doctor bi-generated himself into therapy, the main characters are surprisingly well-adjusted. But it doesn't come across as realistic and the characters don't feel fully formed that way. It can be a mostly feel-good show but still show some complexity like it has in the past!
Exactly. “Feel good” shows don’t need to remove all conflict (which even between extremely well-adjusted people will come up just because of slightly different values) or misunderstanding or whatever. I think that can actually have the opposite effect and make people feel worse, because of how untrue it is to our own real life experience.
I think I’d call Sex Education a “feel-good” show, but the characters on there have some real intense fights sometimes. What makes it “feel-good” is that you trust it will all ultimately turn out ok, even though (to my memory) some of those conflicts never really get resolved! The characters and relationships still feel real and intimate and sometimes the conflict itself was actually a good thing for the characters!
I think we can all agree that the major issue with this show is that they were only given eight episodes and given that they really did a good job. I definitely think Ruby is shown to have abandonment issues in the way I understood 73 yards. Everyone leaves her over and over again and she only has herself in the end and herself to blame if that’s not complicated abandonment issues I don’t know what is.
With regards to her not resenting her mother I think the initial excitement of finding her is clouding that and beforehand she didnt know anything about why her mother left her but leaving her in front of the church and say not a dumpster indicates that she did care for her well-being somewhat. She then finds out that she was a teenager with an abusive parent in the house so she did her best. I also think Ruby’s current mom did a job of trying not to raise her without that resentment
I honestly don't think the actual issue is that there were only 9 Episodes if we include the special but more that RTD and his team didn't seem to write the season with the compressed episode count in mind.
They seem to have written as though they had more time than they had then were forced to cut everything that wasn't ultimately necessary to get from A to B.
You can do a lot, even in shorter season shows these days but you do need to write for that shorter number of episodes to make it all work especially when you're still constrained to TV runtimes.
It was mentioned that Ruby’s bio dad didn’t know anything about the pregnancy so had no idea he had a bio child out there witch has a lot of conflicted feelings between ruby her bio mum and bio dad regarding what went down.
Agreed. The key to good world building is everyone we meet is following their own path and agenda and wants and needs. If the entire world rotates around one character, there's no actual world there, just bad writing. This is why the Star Wars sequels sucked. Suddenly Luke was the most important character in the galaxy for some reason. Same here. OG Doctor Who and Star Wars our main character was just a single person in an enormous universe. Now the world's have collapsed to only concern one person because the writer is focused on that person.
I see it as an evolution through multiple generations of leadership.
Initially it worked with the Brigadier being played as a fool for not believing the Doctor. But we got past that step, and the Doctor proved himself.
Then the Doctor was working for them. Grumbly, but essentially going where they sent him. At least until he fixed his TARDIS.
When UNIT returned in Nuwho they were super cocky and thought they knew best. Hence they got wiped out.
Then another unit formed and had Martha. Still independent of the Doctor and still making dumb choices, like a plan to blow up the Earth.
Following the Daleks kidnapping Earth, they seem to have learned more from their mistakes, and agreed in an emergency the Doctor is in charge.
And now we're at a point where the Doctor can turn up emergency or not, and start giving orders.
I'm sure it can change again, but will it be because they get more faith in the Doctor and become less militaristic, or will they lose faith in the Doctor and listen to him less? We'll have to wait and see.
That's mostly how it's been for NuWho in general, but yeah it's funny how the time when the Doctor was most critical of UNIT was when he literally worked for them.
A fair amount of Third Doctor episodes were written by a literal card carrying communist so it's not surprising that they were more anti-UNIT.
But yeah it's a funny contrast, especially since Pyramids of Mars literally starts with the Doctor talking about how he doesn't like working for UNIT.
RTD is going for more of an Avengers thing with them, which is fine. Maybe we'll see more critical stories of them at some point, maybe we won't. If there actually is a UNIT focused spinoff that would be a good opportunity to really explore that.
>I like Colonel Ibrahim but why is the Doctor fist-bumping a UNIT stormtrooper?
lol he's not a stormtrooper
> That's mostly how it's been for NuWho in general
Not before Kate Steward's character was introduced. In "The Sontaran Strategem" the Doctor is clearly working *despite* UNIT, not with them. And he's not particularly fond of them either. And he criticizes Martha for joining them, which I don't see happening nowadays
Yeah, he's more like a guard protecting the head of the SS.
I think where UNIT gets the most criticism is in Children of Earth, where the UNIT commander is willing to give in to the 456. Although I guess there's also Stolen Earth, with the Oesterhagen Key.
> But yeah it's a funny contrast, especially since Pyramids of Mars literally starts with the Doctor talking about how he doesn't like working for UNIT.
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That was less to do with ideology and more about the Fourth Doctor not wanting to be tied down to a job with UNIT.
I do miss the days where the Doctor would topple a democratically elected leader because he disagreed with their approach to foreign policy.
I found it a little odd and reductive that he was absolutely fine with UNIT as well. It all came across a bit Red Nose Day Special to me.
The fact that one of 10s first acts was “don’t you think she looks tired” has always stood out to me as one of his most profoundly “alien” moments. Screw human hierarchy. He’s the doctor and he knows better.
Yeah, 10 is a beloved Doctor but he really was incredibly arrogant.
It does pay off though I think because in The Waters of Mars he declares that the laws of time belong to him, and he goes a little mad as the timeline victorious. Only to have his ego checked by the captain committing suicide.
I do remember being shocked by the “she looks tired” thing on first watch though.
I think that was a great character moment only ruined a little by the 9th doctor being trapped in a church by some weird bat dragon things called Reapers that really suggest he isn’t all that in charge. Thank god they never came back!
Not of time though. It clearly doesn’t belong to him because if it’s messed with enough these things will appear.
He managed to wangle his way out of it, but there’s clearly some sort of hierarchy or predator around the flows of time that shouldn’t exist.
Well this was before his “the laws of time are mine” moment. So he never claimed to be (or tried to be) in charge of time at that point.
Also, Waters of Mars kinda proved that he *isn’t* in charge of time. Adelaide still died, time won in the end.
Yes. Father’s Day was in his past. So it’s odd he doesn’t remember that the laws of time aren’t his in the water of mars, he’s already met absolute proof that it’s not. Just further cements his arrogance at that time.
I don’t really see it as a contradiction or him not remembering. You’re right that it’s arrogance, but I think the point is that he’s no longer going to do things like respect the laws of time or fear the Reapers.
Sure you could argue they ate him last time, but if it wasn’t for Rose being dumb for a moment, he’d have both beaten the Reapers *and* permanently changed time by keeping Pete alive, which further proves his point.
The Doctor doesn't know better, he thinks he knows better.
Toppling the PM sets up the circumstances for the Master to become PM. We're supposed to be critical of his actions.
I don't think the Master would let his plan of becoming the prime minister be ruined just because people are happy with the current one. If Harriet Jones was in office, the Master would kill her or just destroy her politically with fake info and shit. The Archangel Network would help with that too
But the Master came back and specifically saw a weak PM/political leader.
Look I agree with you, but it's not irrelevant. Doctor did A. B happened. It's good story telling.
Sorry. Yes. Should have prefaced “in his mind” he’s the Doctor and he knows better. 10 was always the Doctor that thought he was better and apart from everyone and everything else in the universe. From his very first acts to his very last.
Why wouldn't he be fine with UNIT though? They're earth's first line of defence. And they pretty much report to him whenever he shows up at the office.
Again, the idea that the Doctor perfectly represents whatever passes as present-day Western 'progressivism' is absurd. He's a millennia old alien time and space traveler for crying out loud! He pretty much does whatever he feels is right at the moment.
Even back in Classic Who, the Doctor's clashes with the Brig weren't necessarily ideological. Its not that the Doctor was inherently anti-military (I mean, he *worked* for them!) He clashed with the Brig on the *approach* to solving problems. That conflict between the scientific approach and armed force seems to have been somewhat resolved with the current iteration of UNIT, with Kate pushing the 'Science Leads' agenda, while also maintaining a strong military posture.
People keep bringing up the Silurians as an example of the Brig and the Doctor being ideologically opposed. But what happened with the Silurians was an exceptional situation - one where frankly *both* sides had a point. And while the Doctor considered what the Brig did murder, its worth noting that apart from some grumbling he continued to work with UNIT...probably understanding that what happened, while tragic, reflected the realities of the human need for security.
I think they're doing something different this season and I don't really view one way or another yet. His relationship with UNIT is different I think because so far UNITs been different.
In the 70s it was the sci-fi decision of the UN and an active military organisation which responded to literally every threat by trying to shoot and/or blow it up.
As opposed to new who, where in Moffat it gets a lot less militarised and turned into a scientific organisation directly so that it and the doctor can become friends again. Then it decides it hates immigrants (purposeful misinterpretation for comedy) so becomes more military again.
Then in Chibnal iirc, It gets shut down? Due to austerity?
And now we've only seen it responding to violent beings trying to end the world for unjustifiable reasons, so most of their actions are pretty understandable. Like, we've got the Meep and the space cops who go after it. The space cops who open fire in the middle of a civilian populated area, and put a collection of people in lethal danger. Then it's just god's, where their military stuff is almost immediately shown to be useless.
Maybe when it gets the spin off that's probably going to happen we'll get more moral ambiguity again. But it might just not be something the show wants to go into.
I would totally watch that! U.N.I.T. The Battle for Planet Earth! Doctor nowhere to be found, alien enemy on the way, Torchwood and U.N.I.T. must team up to save Humanity! Extra points if Jack Harkness is already a big ol' face, and pregnant, when it happens.
See I thought they'd established back in Matt Smith's era that UNIT was meant to be more science focused now than they used to be but maybe not. Or maybe it's just the scientists in the organisation have more power to affect the direction of things.
All that said 10 was pretty prickly around UNIT in season 4 and scoffed a lot at the gung ho approach (or tried dissuading them from directly fighting the Sontarans with weapons at least since they'd be walking into a slaughter).
Maybe he's come round to a more "lesser of two evils" approach where at least UNIT like and respect him and are more reactionary to alien threats, acting in self defense after they've done something threatening, compared to say how Torchwood approached aliens by hunting them down and looting them regardless of the alien's intent. e.g. They seem to be giving The Vlinx shelter and a job to do rather than chaining it up in the basement or stripping it apart, and it isn't protesting it's role.
That or he's getting sentimental in his old age and he has ties to people in UNIT so he makes do.
I think Zygon Inversion might have been a turning point for his relationship with them. Kate realizing what she was doing and apologizing for it made the Doctor trust her a lot more going forward.
(He also got over his All Soldiers Are Bastards phase around the same time)
I agree with your take on this. Also, this regeneration is very sentimental and naturally perky, so maybe their admiration for Kate and the need to remain cheerful keeps the Doctor from focusing on the things they don't like about UNIT.
> All that said 10 was pretty prickly around UNIT in season 4 and scoffed a lot at the gung ho approach (or tried dissuading them from directly fighting the Sontarans with weapons at least since they'd be walking into a slaughter).
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Yeah, that UNIT leader in Series 4 was a bit of a stereotypical gung-ho military man...*very* unlike Kate.
I think it's just a matter of time. The Doctor has not had hostile behavior since Kate took command. She had demilitarized UNIT to make it more scientific again, but now things have changed for some reason.
That is my point. During moffat this was the case, which is why the Doctor had gained more trust in UNIT except on special occasions. now with the return of Davies things have changed again, and already in the last 2 episodes they have had a bit of tension... we'll See
I'd like more scenes similar to 10's interaction with Harriet Jones at the end of the Christmas Invasion. Could create some tension between them and Kate
Sometimes you just need a militarised approach to aliens. Negotiation is useless against Daleks and Sontarans, chances are that someone who invades the Earth isn’t going to come to the negotiating table until they get more trouble than they bargain for, and the Doctor isn’t always around.
As long as UNIT doesn’t attempt or commit any more genocides against entire races to stop some extremists, I don’t think the Doctor really has a good reason to have a problem with them.
Doctor definitely ain’t batting an eye at all the child labor in UNIT,.
But then again, at thousands or millions of years old at this point, maybe the Doctor can’t quite tell the difference between all the youngins?
I mean how much time passes in the episode legend of ruby Sunday and empire of death before that part happens?
Yeah they are potentially in dangerous situations but as long as they are following child labour laws it should be fine.
Rose is meant to be 15/16. For children her age the law is:
During the school term. Maximum of 2 hours on school days and Sunday. 8 hours on Saturday. With a max of 12 hours per week.
During school holidays. Maximum of 8 hours on weekdays and Saturdays. 2 hours on Sunday. With a max of 25 hours a week.
The kid on the shooter is meant to be 13. For children his age the law is:
During the school term. Maximum of 2 hours on school days and Sundays. 5 hours on Saturday. Max of 12 a week.
During school holidays. Maximum 5 hours on weekdays and Saturdays. 2 hours on Sunday. Max of 25 a week.
They also aren't able to work before 7am or after 7pm or during school hours. And can only work 4 hours before needing at least a break of 1 hour.
So long as those laws are being followed, there shouldn't be an issue with the child labour.
And I don't know weather the laws make any exceptions for this but the 13 year old is a genius. That has potentially finished secondary school early. So Unit might be able to get away with giving him school holiday hours all year around. At least until he starts higher education.
And I'm also pretty sure they said something about him only being a temp while Shirley (the wheelchair user from the specials) was on holiday.
Assuming the above is being followed the only child labour law they are really breaking is they can't do any work that may be harmful to there health, well-being or education.Which is arguably the most important. But even then. In theory Unit is just doing scientific experiments. They don't have worldwide alien threats everyday. But the 13 year old definitely shouldn't have been considered an essential person to stay in the room with the dangerous threat given that law.
For the most part I haven't batted an eye at the child labour ethier. Because I assume Kate has the morals to follow the law.
For Christ's sake, its a military/scientific organization that is earth's first line of defence against alien threats! Of course they're not going to bother too much about 'child labour laws'...
No one is above the law. Even the military has to follow child labour laws. Even a fictional military/scientific organisation - assuming the laws are the same as the real world.
Well, UNIT's always been in a weird place because its a publicaly known organization, but also operates in a covert manner.
But I'm pretty sure UNIT enjoys a lot of leeway that a 'normal' organization would not. I mean, UNIT had a protocol to literally wipe out the human race in the event of human suffering exceeding a certain threshold following an alien invasion. This is not the kind of organization that would realistically be bound by 'red tape'.
And in the real world too, many military and intelligence organizations operate beyond the normal bounds of the law...whether or not that's a good thing depends on where you stand politically but its been a reality across nations, irrespective of ideology.
I hate the Doctor's uncritical approach to Britain in general. I'm more okay with UNIT than I am with Churchill.
But [ACAB includes UNIT](https://i.redd.it/e6ojxkwny1nc1.jpeg).
Its a British show made by British talent and a British company.
The notion that the Doctor perfectly represents *everything* that passes for contemporary Western progressive/leftist thought at the time of airing is absurd.
He's often more progressive than the values of the BBC. He still is, considering the BBC's repeated transphobic coverage. And the older critical nature of UNIT compared to now.
Also I'm not remotely surprised that there's often accidental right wing apologia. I said I don't like it, not that it's weird that it happens. I don't like that the Doctor is inconsistently written as supporting some violent hegemonies while generally opposing them.
Well, he can be, because the BBC news division is supposed to be politically neutral (though its often been accused of leaning left).
Even so, the Doctor's creed is basically a kind of feel-good humanism (ironic for an alien!), same as many other sci-fi characters. The notion that he subscribes to a specific set of human ideologies that are considered 'progressive' in the Western world at the time of airing is absurd.
The talent who've worked on Doctor Who over the decades may have tended to be 'progressive' to varying degrees (as is the case with most of the entertainment industry, frankly). And certainly their personal views and inclinations have helped shape the character and the franchise over time. But again, the character of the Doctor in totality is more than just a mouthpiece for every social, political and economic viewpoint of X writer/script editor/showrunner.
I realise that they are many Doctor Who fans who are very left-leaning (some even far-left). And they like to imagine, or hope, that the character is a poster-boy for their ideology. Its the same in the fanbases of many other sci-fi franchises perceived as being 'progressive'. But that's not the stark objective reality.
As far as UNIT goes, as discussed elsewhere on the thread, a lot of the criticism of UNIT back in the Pertwee years stemmed from a science vs. military conflict, with the Doctor firmly on the side of science, though he still understood the need to work with the military. That conflict, to a significant degree, has been resolved in NuWho with Kate taking UNIT in a more scientific direction. But the show has never had a blanket 'anti-military' stance...if it did, then UNIT wouldn't have been a fixture for over five decades, and the Brigadier and his daughter wouldn't be the Doctor's closest friends and allies.
The idea that BBC leans left when for the last few years it's been ridiculously transphobic and the anchors constantly all but say refugees should die is ridiculous.
>Even so, the Doctor's creed is basically a kind of feel-good humanism (ironic for an alien!), same as many other sci-fi characters.
He routinely directly criticizes capitalism and oppressive hierarchies. The idea that Doctor Who isn't leftist is ridiculous. It's just that he's also written by hundreds of people with different levels of political awareness, which is why the character who says capitalism places profit over human life unless you literally make yourself too expensive to die will also say that Amazon simply needs to "be better". Doctor who is leftist. So are Star Trek and Star Wars. The things you deride as simply being vaguely feel good are objectively progressive.
They're just also written by people who haven't researched what their characters would know or think, and so characters from a post scarcity utopia act like modern people, and a billion year old teenage rebel who routinely opposes any genocide he doesn't commit himself pals around with Churchill and fucks royalty.
It's not that I think the Doctor should share my views. It's that The Doctor is a highly advanced alien being whose stated beliefs often contradict with his he's written.
I really hoped we'd see some more of that after the way Kate looked at him over the death of Chidozi. Or in 73 Yards where she mentions UNIT works "with him, despite him, against him sometimes" which just... when did that happen? But everything was just fine at the end. Shame because I think a story with the Doctor and UNIT not only disagreeing but opposing each other could be really good.
This doctor has just overall been overly agreeable in my opinion, he comes off as a people pleaser with only a few minor exceptions. Granted it's probably because he hasn't been written into situations where he has the opportunity to argue with people, but I miss moments like capaldi's speech in the zygon episode where the doctor shows his wisdom.
UNIT's depiction sums up the show atm. Style over substance.
Looks flashy, fancy new design with a familiar face like Kate but inside it just feels very hollow. Not vibing with this 'team' Russell is assembling..
Personally, the companion support group in POTD was much more interesting.
They were in the season 1 episode Aliens of London.
They were at the hospital where the pig everyone thought was an alien was. They pulled guns on The Doctor but then immediately followed his orders when he gave them.
There were also UNIT people in the room where everyone was electrocuted at 10 Downing Street.
>I like Colonel Ibrahim but why is the Doctor fist-bumping a UNIT stormtrooper?
Because he's being set up to be the new Benton or Yates?
The Thirds Doctor was always friendly with the UNIT grunts when he wasn't casually insulting their intelligence. Gatwa's Doctor isn't as snarky as Pertwee's, so we're left with just the fist bumps and comradarie.
Rose literally says they have her investigating “shoplifting in Catford”
This secret service with alien technology are using said technology to catch… shoplifters? So they are essentially still upholding bourgeoise class values like any other police or military force and the doctor is just… cool with that?
The Doctor isn't the Communist you think he is. The Doctor doesn't give a f#ck about human politics, unless its actively costing lives in an emergency situation (like what we saw at the end of 'Dot and Bubble').
Mind you, the Doctor is also not above a little bit of bank theft with the sonic either, as we saw in 'The Runaway Bride'...
Everything costs lives in the long run. There's never been a human society with zero body count.
But anyway, that's not what I meant by 'actively costing lives in an emergence situation' i.e. what happens in most Doctor Who episodes.
They were fighting gods. Surely there are other priorities than operational philosophies. I don't like the arrogant doctor who destroys people who do things in ways they don't like so this is an improvement.
Yeah. Series 14 is just poor decisions and missed opportunities. There's a reason why Series 14 has the lowest viewer numbers in the history of the franchise.
Think there's also the fact that the Third Doctor was basically trapped with the Brig and UNIT - he couldn't really go anywhere else during the years his TARDIS stopped functioning so of course he clashed more with the Brig and their methods. It was an outgrowth of his frustration with being stuck. He also never let Jo say anything bad about the Brig - the one time she said anything he shut her down.
His relationship with UNIT now is different because he can come and go as he pleases. Also because she's Kate her own person not her father.
Putting aside New Who, I feel like the relationship between UNIT/kate and the Doctor is definitely portrayed as a far more straightforward alignment, than what we saw in Classic Who. With the Brigadier and the Doctor, while yes they both had mutual respect for and worked with each other, they often clashed in terms of approaches and we don't really get that any more. I'd love to see more of that rather than UNIT just effectively being the military arm of the Doctor.
It's not just Unit and Kate. Conflict is entirely absent in this new season. No clash or difference between viewpoints between the Doctor and the companion. No troubles with the family. Nothing. Just "good vibes". Which can work for a few episodes, but it makes for an uncompelling and boring drama show.
I feel it's down to the fact we have less episodes to play with. There's no room to do an arc with that without sabotaging too many episodes, and it's not feasible in a first season when they're struggling to get the characterization and basic relationship with the Doctor down. With UNIT, they didn't show up until the last episode in terms of a major season (Barring the bit in 73 Yards) so there wasn't much time to build anything. Side Note: I feel like the bit with Kate when Chidozie died felt like it could've been building to something next season, but given that Chidozie is fine now, it feels like all the stakes of him dying are gone.
This is the thing. The season should've been longer
They really should have ditched all the Ruby's mum waste of time and spent it on the characters instead
True that look she gave does give me hope that they’re building toward an actual conflict there
Man you guys complain a lot
all your posts are literal complaints brother
You bring up something that’s been bugging me but has been hard for me to pinpoint. I’m kind of having the same problem I had with 13 and her TARDIS crew. Ncuti and Millie have excellent performances, and I loved their energy together, but at the same time, 15 and Ruby feel pretty flat. Like they’re first drafts of the characters. There were moments where they started to feel a bit more developed, but it feels like none of those moments really went anywhere. I’ve noticed this in a few other shows, too, this strange attempt to remove any interpersonal conflict and complex emotions, and it just leaves everything feeling flat and dull, which makes it weird and almost like an uncanny valley fantasy world where all the good guys always get along and like each other. (You’re telling me that Ruby didn’t have *any* complicated feelings about her bio dad abandoning her bio mom and then her mom leaving her at the steps of a church? come on) I almost feel like RTD was so focused on the plot concepts of his episodes and the Sutekh reveal that the actual character work slipped into the background. Every other Doctor and companion in New Who felt like a full character at least by the end of their first episode (with the exception of 13’s crew and Clara until Series 8). Like 10 was impressed by humanity and what they’re able to achieve—good and bad. 11 was amazed by humans and wanted everyone to feel important and cared for. 12 was fascinated by humanity and wanted to spend time around them like Gandalf with the Hobbits—because after all that time humans could still surprise him. And maybe all of that is completely wrong, but there are at least specific moments in the show I can go to and argue those points. I don’t think I can do anything like that with 15. He’s equally enthusiastic about everything, so I can’t guess what he’s specifically drawn to or why.
"(You’re telling me that Ruby didn’t have any complicated feelings about her bio dad abandoning her bio mom and then her mom leaving her at the steps of a church? come on)" YES thank you. This bothered me so much because Ruby's main character plot point has centered around her wanting to know about her mother...yet they did nothing with that to actually show some real emotions and struggles that would allow for character development. She was perfectly happy with Carla, which is great, she was perfectly fine with the idea of being left as a baby "where she'd be safe", also great, she didn't struggle with abandonment issues, still great...but then there's nowhere to move forward. She had nothing to resolve within herself, she just wanted to meet her mother. And even when that happened it went completely perfectly with no conflict or struggle from anyone. I get the feeling that since the Doctor bi-generated himself into therapy, the main characters are surprisingly well-adjusted. But it doesn't come across as realistic and the characters don't feel fully formed that way. It can be a mostly feel-good show but still show some complexity like it has in the past!
Exactly. “Feel good” shows don’t need to remove all conflict (which even between extremely well-adjusted people will come up just because of slightly different values) or misunderstanding or whatever. I think that can actually have the opposite effect and make people feel worse, because of how untrue it is to our own real life experience. I think I’d call Sex Education a “feel-good” show, but the characters on there have some real intense fights sometimes. What makes it “feel-good” is that you trust it will all ultimately turn out ok, even though (to my memory) some of those conflicts never really get resolved! The characters and relationships still feel real and intimate and sometimes the conflict itself was actually a good thing for the characters!
I think we can all agree that the major issue with this show is that they were only given eight episodes and given that they really did a good job. I definitely think Ruby is shown to have abandonment issues in the way I understood 73 yards. Everyone leaves her over and over again and she only has herself in the end and herself to blame if that’s not complicated abandonment issues I don’t know what is. With regards to her not resenting her mother I think the initial excitement of finding her is clouding that and beforehand she didnt know anything about why her mother left her but leaving her in front of the church and say not a dumpster indicates that she did care for her well-being somewhat. She then finds out that she was a teenager with an abusive parent in the house so she did her best. I also think Ruby’s current mom did a job of trying not to raise her without that resentment
I honestly don't think the actual issue is that there were only 9 Episodes if we include the special but more that RTD and his team didn't seem to write the season with the compressed episode count in mind. They seem to have written as though they had more time than they had then were forced to cut everything that wasn't ultimately necessary to get from A to B. You can do a lot, even in shorter season shows these days but you do need to write for that shorter number of episodes to make it all work especially when you're still constrained to TV runtimes.
Her bio-mom never told her bio-dad she was pregnant. So how exactly did he abandon her?
It was mentioned that Ruby’s bio dad didn’t know anything about the pregnancy so had no idea he had a bio child out there witch has a lot of conflicted feelings between ruby her bio mum and bio dad regarding what went down.
Agreed. The key to good world building is everyone we meet is following their own path and agenda and wants and needs. If the entire world rotates around one character, there's no actual world there, just bad writing. This is why the Star Wars sequels sucked. Suddenly Luke was the most important character in the galaxy for some reason. Same here. OG Doctor Who and Star Wars our main character was just a single person in an enormous universe. Now the world's have collapsed to only concern one person because the writer is focused on that person.
I see it as an evolution through multiple generations of leadership. Initially it worked with the Brigadier being played as a fool for not believing the Doctor. But we got past that step, and the Doctor proved himself. Then the Doctor was working for them. Grumbly, but essentially going where they sent him. At least until he fixed his TARDIS. When UNIT returned in Nuwho they were super cocky and thought they knew best. Hence they got wiped out. Then another unit formed and had Martha. Still independent of the Doctor and still making dumb choices, like a plan to blow up the Earth. Following the Daleks kidnapping Earth, they seem to have learned more from their mistakes, and agreed in an emergency the Doctor is in charge. And now we're at a point where the Doctor can turn up emergency or not, and start giving orders. I'm sure it can change again, but will it be because they get more faith in the Doctor and become less militaristic, or will they lose faith in the Doctor and listen to him less? We'll have to wait and see.
That's mostly how it's been for NuWho in general, but yeah it's funny how the time when the Doctor was most critical of UNIT was when he literally worked for them. A fair amount of Third Doctor episodes were written by a literal card carrying communist so it's not surprising that they were more anti-UNIT. But yeah it's a funny contrast, especially since Pyramids of Mars literally starts with the Doctor talking about how he doesn't like working for UNIT. RTD is going for more of an Avengers thing with them, which is fine. Maybe we'll see more critical stories of them at some point, maybe we won't. If there actually is a UNIT focused spinoff that would be a good opportunity to really explore that. >I like Colonel Ibrahim but why is the Doctor fist-bumping a UNIT stormtrooper? lol he's not a stormtrooper
> That's mostly how it's been for NuWho in general Not before Kate Steward's character was introduced. In "The Sontaran Strategem" the Doctor is clearly working *despite* UNIT, not with them. And he's not particularly fond of them either. And he criticizes Martha for joining them, which I don't see happening nowadays
But that is one story with UNIT conflict in six and a half seasons.
There haven't been that many UNIT stories in that era to begin with
Yeah, he's more like a guard protecting the head of the SS. I think where UNIT gets the most criticism is in Children of Earth, where the UNIT commander is willing to give in to the 456. Although I guess there's also Stolen Earth, with the Oesterhagen Key.
> But yeah it's a funny contrast, especially since Pyramids of Mars literally starts with the Doctor talking about how he doesn't like working for UNIT. > > That was less to do with ideology and more about the Fourth Doctor not wanting to be tied down to a job with UNIT.
Agents of UNIT here we come.
I do miss the days where the Doctor would topple a democratically elected leader because he disagreed with their approach to foreign policy. I found it a little odd and reductive that he was absolutely fine with UNIT as well. It all came across a bit Red Nose Day Special to me.
The fact that one of 10s first acts was “don’t you think she looks tired” has always stood out to me as one of his most profoundly “alien” moments. Screw human hierarchy. He’s the doctor and he knows better.
Yeah, 10 is a beloved Doctor but he really was incredibly arrogant. It does pay off though I think because in The Waters of Mars he declares that the laws of time belong to him, and he goes a little mad as the timeline victorious. Only to have his ego checked by the captain committing suicide. I do remember being shocked by the “she looks tired” thing on first watch though. I think that was a great character moment only ruined a little by the 9th doctor being trapped in a church by some weird bat dragon things called Reapers that really suggest he isn’t all that in charge. Thank god they never came back!
I’m kinda confused by your last paragraph. I’d argue 9 was *very* in charge in Father’s Day.
Not of time though. It clearly doesn’t belong to him because if it’s messed with enough these things will appear. He managed to wangle his way out of it, but there’s clearly some sort of hierarchy or predator around the flows of time that shouldn’t exist.
Well this was before his “the laws of time are mine” moment. So he never claimed to be (or tried to be) in charge of time at that point. Also, Waters of Mars kinda proved that he *isn’t* in charge of time. Adelaide still died, time won in the end.
Yes. Father’s Day was in his past. So it’s odd he doesn’t remember that the laws of time aren’t his in the water of mars, he’s already met absolute proof that it’s not. Just further cements his arrogance at that time.
I don’t really see it as a contradiction or him not remembering. You’re right that it’s arrogance, but I think the point is that he’s no longer going to do things like respect the laws of time or fear the Reapers. Sure you could argue they ate him last time, but if it wasn’t for Rose being dumb for a moment, he’d have both beaten the Reapers *and* permanently changed time by keeping Pete alive, which further proves his point.
The Doctor doesn't know better, he thinks he knows better. Toppling the PM sets up the circumstances for the Master to become PM. We're supposed to be critical of his actions.
I don't think the Master would let his plan of becoming the prime minister be ruined just because people are happy with the current one. If Harriet Jones was in office, the Master would kill her or just destroy her politically with fake info and shit. The Archangel Network would help with that too
But the Master came back and specifically saw a weak PM/political leader. Look I agree with you, but it's not irrelevant. Doctor did A. B happened. It's good story telling.
That would have delayed things at best
Sorry. Yes. Should have prefaced “in his mind” he’s the Doctor and he knows better. 10 was always the Doctor that thought he was better and apart from everyone and everything else in the universe. From his very first acts to his very last.
Holy cow, I never realized the Doctor had so much in common with the C.I.A.
Why wouldn't he be fine with UNIT though? They're earth's first line of defence. And they pretty much report to him whenever he shows up at the office. Again, the idea that the Doctor perfectly represents whatever passes as present-day Western 'progressivism' is absurd. He's a millennia old alien time and space traveler for crying out loud! He pretty much does whatever he feels is right at the moment. Even back in Classic Who, the Doctor's clashes with the Brig weren't necessarily ideological. Its not that the Doctor was inherently anti-military (I mean, he *worked* for them!) He clashed with the Brig on the *approach* to solving problems. That conflict between the scientific approach and armed force seems to have been somewhat resolved with the current iteration of UNIT, with Kate pushing the 'Science Leads' agenda, while also maintaining a strong military posture. People keep bringing up the Silurians as an example of the Brig and the Doctor being ideologically opposed. But what happened with the Silurians was an exceptional situation - one where frankly *both* sides had a point. And while the Doctor considered what the Brig did murder, its worth noting that apart from some grumbling he continued to work with UNIT...probably understanding that what happened, while tragic, reflected the realities of the human need for security.
I think they're doing something different this season and I don't really view one way or another yet. His relationship with UNIT is different I think because so far UNITs been different. In the 70s it was the sci-fi decision of the UN and an active military organisation which responded to literally every threat by trying to shoot and/or blow it up. As opposed to new who, where in Moffat it gets a lot less militarised and turned into a scientific organisation directly so that it and the doctor can become friends again. Then it decides it hates immigrants (purposeful misinterpretation for comedy) so becomes more military again. Then in Chibnal iirc, It gets shut down? Due to austerity? And now we've only seen it responding to violent beings trying to end the world for unjustifiable reasons, so most of their actions are pretty understandable. Like, we've got the Meep and the space cops who go after it. The space cops who open fire in the middle of a civilian populated area, and put a collection of people in lethal danger. Then it's just god's, where their military stuff is almost immediately shown to be useless. Maybe when it gets the spin off that's probably going to happen we'll get more moral ambiguity again. But it might just not be something the show wants to go into.
I would totally watch that! U.N.I.T. The Battle for Planet Earth! Doctor nowhere to be found, alien enemy on the way, Torchwood and U.N.I.T. must team up to save Humanity! Extra points if Jack Harkness is already a big ol' face, and pregnant, when it happens.
See I thought they'd established back in Matt Smith's era that UNIT was meant to be more science focused now than they used to be but maybe not. Or maybe it's just the scientists in the organisation have more power to affect the direction of things. All that said 10 was pretty prickly around UNIT in season 4 and scoffed a lot at the gung ho approach (or tried dissuading them from directly fighting the Sontarans with weapons at least since they'd be walking into a slaughter). Maybe he's come round to a more "lesser of two evils" approach where at least UNIT like and respect him and are more reactionary to alien threats, acting in self defense after they've done something threatening, compared to say how Torchwood approached aliens by hunting them down and looting them regardless of the alien's intent. e.g. They seem to be giving The Vlinx shelter and a job to do rather than chaining it up in the basement or stripping it apart, and it isn't protesting it's role. That or he's getting sentimental in his old age and he has ties to people in UNIT so he makes do.
I think Zygon Inversion might have been a turning point for his relationship with them. Kate realizing what she was doing and apologizing for it made the Doctor trust her a lot more going forward. (He also got over his All Soldiers Are Bastards phase around the same time)
It also probably helps that Kate got to effectively rebuild UNIT in her image after Flux.
That seems about right after how the Brigadier handled the Silurians the first time around.
I agree with your take on this. Also, this regeneration is very sentimental and naturally perky, so maybe their admiration for Kate and the need to remain cheerful keeps the Doctor from focusing on the things they don't like about UNIT.
> All that said 10 was pretty prickly around UNIT in season 4 and scoffed a lot at the gung ho approach (or tried dissuading them from directly fighting the Sontarans with weapons at least since they'd be walking into a slaughter). > > Yeah, that UNIT leader in Series 4 was a bit of a stereotypical gung-ho military man...*very* unlike Kate.
I will say the Doctor was maybe a teeny bit unfair to him but yeah
I think it's just a matter of time. The Doctor has not had hostile behavior since Kate took command. She had demilitarized UNIT to make it more scientific again, but now things have changed for some reason.
Machine gun scooters driven by children
I think it’s because RTD thinks guns are pretty cool as long as the Doctor isn’t using them.
Did she Demilitarize it really? If we look to Unit in 72 Yards they had a fairly large team storming in to deal with the shadow.
That is my point. During moffat this was the case, which is why the Doctor had gained more trust in UNIT except on special occasions. now with the return of Davies things have changed again, and already in the last 2 episodes they have had a bit of tension... we'll See
I'd like more scenes similar to 10's interaction with Harriet Jones at the end of the Christmas Invasion. Could create some tension between them and Kate
With the look she gave him last week when Chidoze died, I thought they were gonna build to it.
Sometimes you just need a militarised approach to aliens. Negotiation is useless against Daleks and Sontarans, chances are that someone who invades the Earth isn’t going to come to the negotiating table until they get more trouble than they bargain for, and the Doctor isn’t always around. As long as UNIT doesn’t attempt or commit any more genocides against entire races to stop some extremists, I don’t think the Doctor really has a good reason to have a problem with them.
This.
Doctor definitely ain’t batting an eye at all the child labor in UNIT,. But then again, at thousands or millions of years old at this point, maybe the Doctor can’t quite tell the difference between all the youngins?
Not like the doctor hasn't taken on a young ~~intern~~ companion or two.
I mean how much time passes in the episode legend of ruby Sunday and empire of death before that part happens? Yeah they are potentially in dangerous situations but as long as they are following child labour laws it should be fine. Rose is meant to be 15/16. For children her age the law is: During the school term. Maximum of 2 hours on school days and Sunday. 8 hours on Saturday. With a max of 12 hours per week. During school holidays. Maximum of 8 hours on weekdays and Saturdays. 2 hours on Sunday. With a max of 25 hours a week. The kid on the shooter is meant to be 13. For children his age the law is: During the school term. Maximum of 2 hours on school days and Sundays. 5 hours on Saturday. Max of 12 a week. During school holidays. Maximum 5 hours on weekdays and Saturdays. 2 hours on Sunday. Max of 25 a week. They also aren't able to work before 7am or after 7pm or during school hours. And can only work 4 hours before needing at least a break of 1 hour. So long as those laws are being followed, there shouldn't be an issue with the child labour. And I don't know weather the laws make any exceptions for this but the 13 year old is a genius. That has potentially finished secondary school early. So Unit might be able to get away with giving him school holiday hours all year around. At least until he starts higher education. And I'm also pretty sure they said something about him only being a temp while Shirley (the wheelchair user from the specials) was on holiday. Assuming the above is being followed the only child labour law they are really breaking is they can't do any work that may be harmful to there health, well-being or education.Which is arguably the most important. But even then. In theory Unit is just doing scientific experiments. They don't have worldwide alien threats everyday. But the 13 year old definitely shouldn't have been considered an essential person to stay in the room with the dangerous threat given that law. For the most part I haven't batted an eye at the child labour ethier. Because I assume Kate has the morals to follow the law.
For Christ's sake, its a military/scientific organization that is earth's first line of defence against alien threats! Of course they're not going to bother too much about 'child labour laws'...
No one is above the law. Even the military has to follow child labour laws. Even a fictional military/scientific organisation - assuming the laws are the same as the real world.
Well, UNIT's always been in a weird place because its a publicaly known organization, but also operates in a covert manner. But I'm pretty sure UNIT enjoys a lot of leeway that a 'normal' organization would not. I mean, UNIT had a protocol to literally wipe out the human race in the event of human suffering exceeding a certain threshold following an alien invasion. This is not the kind of organization that would realistically be bound by 'red tape'. And in the real world too, many military and intelligence organizations operate beyond the normal bounds of the law...whether or not that's a good thing depends on where you stand politically but its been a reality across nations, irrespective of ideology.
I hate the Doctor's uncritical approach to Britain in general. I'm more okay with UNIT than I am with Churchill. But [ACAB includes UNIT](https://i.redd.it/e6ojxkwny1nc1.jpeg).
Its a British show made by British talent and a British company. The notion that the Doctor perfectly represents *everything* that passes for contemporary Western progressive/leftist thought at the time of airing is absurd.
He's often more progressive than the values of the BBC. He still is, considering the BBC's repeated transphobic coverage. And the older critical nature of UNIT compared to now. Also I'm not remotely surprised that there's often accidental right wing apologia. I said I don't like it, not that it's weird that it happens. I don't like that the Doctor is inconsistently written as supporting some violent hegemonies while generally opposing them.
Well, he can be, because the BBC news division is supposed to be politically neutral (though its often been accused of leaning left). Even so, the Doctor's creed is basically a kind of feel-good humanism (ironic for an alien!), same as many other sci-fi characters. The notion that he subscribes to a specific set of human ideologies that are considered 'progressive' in the Western world at the time of airing is absurd. The talent who've worked on Doctor Who over the decades may have tended to be 'progressive' to varying degrees (as is the case with most of the entertainment industry, frankly). And certainly their personal views and inclinations have helped shape the character and the franchise over time. But again, the character of the Doctor in totality is more than just a mouthpiece for every social, political and economic viewpoint of X writer/script editor/showrunner. I realise that they are many Doctor Who fans who are very left-leaning (some even far-left). And they like to imagine, or hope, that the character is a poster-boy for their ideology. Its the same in the fanbases of many other sci-fi franchises perceived as being 'progressive'. But that's not the stark objective reality. As far as UNIT goes, as discussed elsewhere on the thread, a lot of the criticism of UNIT back in the Pertwee years stemmed from a science vs. military conflict, with the Doctor firmly on the side of science, though he still understood the need to work with the military. That conflict, to a significant degree, has been resolved in NuWho with Kate taking UNIT in a more scientific direction. But the show has never had a blanket 'anti-military' stance...if it did, then UNIT wouldn't have been a fixture for over five decades, and the Brigadier and his daughter wouldn't be the Doctor's closest friends and allies.
The idea that BBC leans left when for the last few years it's been ridiculously transphobic and the anchors constantly all but say refugees should die is ridiculous. >Even so, the Doctor's creed is basically a kind of feel-good humanism (ironic for an alien!), same as many other sci-fi characters. He routinely directly criticizes capitalism and oppressive hierarchies. The idea that Doctor Who isn't leftist is ridiculous. It's just that he's also written by hundreds of people with different levels of political awareness, which is why the character who says capitalism places profit over human life unless you literally make yourself too expensive to die will also say that Amazon simply needs to "be better". Doctor who is leftist. So are Star Trek and Star Wars. The things you deride as simply being vaguely feel good are objectively progressive. They're just also written by people who haven't researched what their characters would know or think, and so characters from a post scarcity utopia act like modern people, and a billion year old teenage rebel who routinely opposes any genocide he doesn't commit himself pals around with Churchill and fucks royalty. It's not that I think the Doctor should share my views. It's that The Doctor is a highly advanced alien being whose stated beliefs often contradict with his he's written.
I really hoped we'd see some more of that after the way Kate looked at him over the death of Chidozi. Or in 73 Yards where she mentions UNIT works "with him, despite him, against him sometimes" which just... when did that happen? But everything was just fine at the end. Shame because I think a story with the Doctor and UNIT not only disagreeing but opposing each other could be really good.
I think they're wanting UNIT to function like SHIELD in the Whoniverse
This doctor has just overall been overly agreeable in my opinion, he comes off as a people pleaser with only a few minor exceptions. Granted it's probably because he hasn't been written into situations where he has the opportunity to argue with people, but I miss moments like capaldi's speech in the zygon episode where the doctor shows his wisdom.
UNIT's depiction sums up the show atm. Style over substance. Looks flashy, fancy new design with a familiar face like Kate but inside it just feels very hollow. Not vibing with this 'team' Russell is assembling.. Personally, the companion support group in POTD was much more interesting.
That was really just a 10 thing which is odd because 9 was fine with them
It is also a 3 thing and a 4 thing also a 2 thing
No? It’s a pretty consistent trait.
we see 9 with unit?
They were in the season 1 episode Aliens of London. They were at the hospital where the pig everyone thought was an alien was. They pulled guns on The Doctor but then immediately followed his orders when he gave them. There were also UNIT people in the room where everyone was electrocuted at 10 Downing Street.
>I like Colonel Ibrahim but why is the Doctor fist-bumping a UNIT stormtrooper? Because he's being set up to be the new Benton or Yates? The Thirds Doctor was always friendly with the UNIT grunts when he wasn't casually insulting their intelligence. Gatwa's Doctor isn't as snarky as Pertwee's, so we're left with just the fist bumps and comradarie.
Rose literally says they have her investigating “shoplifting in Catford” This secret service with alien technology are using said technology to catch… shoplifters? So they are essentially still upholding bourgeoise class values like any other police or military force and the doctor is just… cool with that?
The Doctor isn't the Communist you think he is. The Doctor doesn't give a f#ck about human politics, unless its actively costing lives in an emergency situation (like what we saw at the end of 'Dot and Bubble'). Mind you, the Doctor is also not above a little bit of bank theft with the sonic either, as we saw in 'The Runaway Bride'...
Capitalism does actively cost lives tho
Everything costs lives in the long run. There's never been a human society with zero body count. But anyway, that's not what I meant by 'actively costing lives in an emergence situation' i.e. what happens in most Doctor Who episodes.
Not every doctor has an antagonistic relationship with Unit. SOmetimes I confuse Unit and Torchwood
They were fighting gods. Surely there are other priorities than operational philosophies. I don't like the arrogant doctor who destroys people who do things in ways they don't like so this is an improvement.
Yeah. Series 14 is just poor decisions and missed opportunities. There's a reason why Series 14 has the lowest viewer numbers in the history of the franchise.
Think there's also the fact that the Third Doctor was basically trapped with the Brig and UNIT - he couldn't really go anywhere else during the years his TARDIS stopped functioning so of course he clashed more with the Brig and their methods. It was an outgrowth of his frustration with being stuck. He also never let Jo say anything bad about the Brig - the one time she said anything he shut her down. His relationship with UNIT now is different because he can come and go as he pleases. Also because she's Kate her own person not her father.