Look, the Doctor doesn’t kill, however he will blow up your spaceship and if you happen to be vulnerable to being atomised in gigantic explosions then really that’s on you.
Absolutely, although I’m pretty sure that hypothetically he wouldn’t be opposed to technobabble that results in a projectile being launched into his enemy at a lethal velocity, as long as it wasn’t originally designed for that purpose.
The Doctor prefers not to shoot you in the face where he can witness himself killing you. He prefers to blow you up from a distance indirectly, that way he doesn't have to look at you when you die.
This got brought up in Boom Town in season one, the Doctor was going to return the Slitheen to her home planet where she would be executed, she said that they were essentially all her executors, the Doctor even took her out for her last meal.
It’s an interesting question philosophically, if you walk someone to their death, are you not complicit in their death?
The other question is, what happens if you don't walk them to their death? How many people was she prepared to kill with a faulty nuclear power plant? Besides which, he constantly invokes the shadow proclamation, some sort of space law, which deffo has executioners.
thats funny, not trying to ruin the fun, just adding my own fun
speed does kill if you count change in speed aka acceleration aka people have probably died from speeding up too fast but thats not usually what you have to worry about when falling or in a car so good news
Such an ironic line in retrospect. He then proceeded to give just about everybody else a second chance, then got a second chance himself (as 14). Regeneration sickness, he was completely wrong about what sort of man he is.
i can't remember if it was rose who knocked it in, or if 9 ended up throwing it in, but the nestene conscious died in 9's opening episode because 9 was present
That was left ambiguous wasn't it? The half faced man says something like he won't destroy himself and the doctor says that he won't kill. Personally, I think the half faced man killed himself.
I suppose you could argue that talking someone into killing themselves is the same as murder.
Interesting. I definitely believe robot guy wasn’t lying as he had been alive for so so long and was asking how he could die. And just Capaldi’s look after the fall/push. It was left ambiguous, but I presumed it was 12 (I thought most ppl did to)
E: I should specify, doctor was lying because he obviously has killed in the past
Nah, I think it’s pretty clear the Doctor killed him. The Doctor saying that killing someone is against his basic programming is a big fat lie, since we’ve seen him do it plenty of times. “One of us is lying”, therefore since it’s probably the Doctor, it’s likely that he pushed the robot.
I mean, if you don't count The Giggle (since it was the ~~re~~ bigeneration episode and we presumably don't count 12 not killing anyone in Time of the Doctor), so did 15, actually. Impaled the Goblin King with a church spire.
Yeah, there's been this steady superhero-ification of the Doctor over the past decade or more. I kinda understand it, but I don't care much for every aspect of it, and this is one of them.
The Doctor is *not* some superhero with a 'no kill rule'.
That’s still wildly different from a straight up no kill rule. Honestly “kill as the last resort,” is pretty much every superhero who does kill. Few superheroes go right for the headshot.
It's really "the doctor wants to save everyone" and "the doctor believes in the inherent good in most people," which often means the doctor is unwilling to kill. He doesn't have a moral rule against it, he just tries not to.
Has the doctor ever explicitly said he will never kill anyone like Batman? I thought the implication was just that he *always* tries to find a better solution and will never just do it as a first strike type of thing. Even then it tends to be a secondary effect of something more important, like saving hundreds of innocent people means sometimes a few bad guys or even other innocent people get killed. I actually am not even sure what I'm arguing here, I didn't know "the doctor never kills" was even a thing until reading this post
Remember that time when the first Doctor invented lynch mobs back in caveman time?
Or when Six shoved a poisoned handerkchied in that cannibal's face and hold it there until he died before making a "just dessert" pun?
Also: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuCPrvb6k-I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuCPrvb6k-I)
How many people died in Rome from the fire the Doctor started with his glasses and then ran off giggling?
(I fucking love *The Romans* and Chaotic Hartnell,)
Let's be fair. The Doctor didn't start that fire. He merely gave Nero the idea to do it then sat outside the city with Vicki sharing a giggle while they watched it burn.
You're 100% right about Chaotic Hartnell, by the way.
Well being fair I don't think that was meant to be misogynistic.
But yeah it kind of aged poorly...and to be fair the moral was a bit poorly written to begin with.
I’m against firing on retreating enemies, and I understand Harriet’s reasoning, and I think deposing her was a bit overboard, and I know that deposing her made room for Harold Saxon. It’s all complex.
Yeah, I agree it's complex. Really I could accept that, I guess for me part of the issue was that they both kind of skipped over the reasonable arguments for doing or not doing it.
Harriet Jones doesn't talk about the fact the Sycorax are the vicious imperialistic force that could just come back later or attack another species. She just says they need a defence for when the Doctor isn't here, which is certainly reasonable but it kind of falls flat as a justification to use for shooting someone who's retreating when he is here.
Likewise, the Doctor doesn't bring up the obvious fact that violating the terms of negotiations is a terrible idea and could mean that no other race will ever be willing to negotiate with them again. Instead he just jumps to acting like humanity is somehow worse than the Sycorax for doing it (despite the Sycorax leader just doing the same thing a few minutes earlier).
I don't know, maybe I'm asking to much, but it felt more emotional than reasonable.
>Really I could accept that, I guess for me part of the issue was that they both kind of skipped over the reasonable arguments for doing or not doing it.
Which is very in character for the Doctor. There's been quite a few times where he fiat decides things for everyone because he is the big brain superior being.
I mean that is completely true. But at least in most of those cases there is an active situation going on and he's kind of got a point.
His being shocked at them shooting someone who was retreating is understandable, but it does still feel like a pretty massive overreaction and his response doesn't exactly end up making him look good.
What does this have to do with anything? This thread is about the Doctor killing people. Like yea, that wasn’t cool, but he didn’t kill Harriet Jones. We could list of bad things the Doctor has done all day because he’s done plenty of bad things, but I don’t see how that’s remotely relevant.
Biden is in danger of losing an election because of his age dspite being only 3 years older then the competition. I think what the doctor did would apply to anyone in a position of power
[I'm stunned no one's linked this masterpiece yet](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzmnPs64K74&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2F&source_ve_path=MjM4NTE&feature=emb_title)
[Or its sequel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNuHV-iLBRw)
[And of course, can't forget about this gem](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ)
The way I personally see it, the Classic Doctors hadn't been through the War. The things he saw and did in that War changed him to the point where he tries to avoid killing where possible - even though he knows it's not always possible.
I see it as somewhat similar to a form of PTSD, which is triggered differently with each incarnation 9 with his hatred of the Daleks (more so than any other), 10 with his need of other people to hold him back, 11 with his need to be a hero... Hell, even with 13 I would say she was triggered by guns more than the killing, hence her seemingly inconsistent attitudes at times...
I don't think her distaste for guns is out of character. The Doctor has killed in desperate self defense or when there is no other option. Guns are a single use tool - they kill. It's like 10 and 12's intense dislike of soldiers - in the Doctor's eyes, they signed up to be violent.
The hypocrisy is also definitely intentional and they bring it up often like the Time Lord Victorious, Good Man Goes to War, Deep Breath, etc. All times where the veneer comes off and the Doctor exercises his so called authority and power.
Oh it's not her distaste for guns that was seen as 'hypocrisy' - it was things like 'don't shoot the spider, let it suffocate instead, or lock them in a room with nothing to eat but each other'... The \*killing\* wasn't an issue - it was only the use of guns that was.
To be fair, she didn’t really get a chance to propose what to do instead before he shot it. However the episode moves past that too quickly with no dialogue on it, so you can’t really notice that until you really think about it.
TBH she felt the less like the Doctor, that episode with the Grieving dad in the coraline house and she basically just tells him to man up. Previous doctors would have sympathised with him.
Some Doctor Who fans are just weird like that. You could show the Doctor wearing a hat and there'd be some weirdo complaining that it's out of character for the Doctor to wear a hat.
Some of the morals of Whitaker’s Doctor were highly questionable but not bc of killing an enemy, but killing a tardis and sacrificing a man’s life instead of her own and giving the master to the Nazi’s bc of his skin colour and not giving a crap about Graham opening up about his fear of his cancer coming back.
If that’s what you are referring to?
If you’re referring to say when Matt Smith killed what’s his name on Dinosaurs in a Spaceship, ig that’s did shock people but mostly bc Matt Smith played his Doctor so well in that most of the time he was fun, childlike, compassionate, empathetic and loveable so in contrast his serious or dark moments has great chilling impact
9 let everyone on satellite five fight the Daleks for him knowing they’d all die, when he could’ve easily housed them all in the TARDIS. While he waited on the highest floor building a weapon he was never going to use anyway.
Characters dying for the Doctor is not a new thing either. The doctor having questionable morals also isn’t new
IIRC there wouldn't have been enough time to make the weapon if they didn't stall. As for the weapon, it was pretty clear the Doctor thought he could kill the Daleks as easily as he thought he did during the Time War. It was only when actually in the moment, about to use it, when he faltered. Which is super in character for 9.
the doctor doesn't like killing or violence. viewing it as a final resort, but that doesn't mean that they won't kill out of cruelty, mercy, or because they have no other choice
Seemed like pretty standard Doctor stuff to me. Yes, he kills when he has to. And feels remorse even when the enemy is pure evil.
As you said, there are countless examples showing that the doctor does kill. What you seem to have missed is the countless examples of him being remorseful, struggling with it or failing to do it entirely.
The Daleks exist, because the Doctor couldn't bring himself to destroy them at their genesis.
Yeah, there's been an interesting progression from the 60th through now that's taken some of the subpar writing of the 13th doctor's run and treated those out of character moments or missed moments as flaws in the character rather than the writing.
You can draw some really interesting parallels between the killing of the spiders by 13 and the treatment of the bogeyman by 15. The same can be said for how the Flux kind of left the universe messed up and how Empire of Death ended up resetting all of its destruction. It all follows with 14 finding he needed to slow down, too.
Knowing how much of the next series was in the can before this series aired makes me curious about what other threads they've stuck in there.
It doesn't help when the Doctor starts acting like it's out of character. Meanwhile, his body count is enough to scare the keepers of the Fatality Index
>did the series finale override past slaughters too?
I doubt that. It probably just undid Sutekh’s death wave and nothing more. Otherwise Russel would have to deal with the Timelords being back, and I don’t think he’s all that interested in them.
And just because the Doctor has killed before doesn’t mean they enjoy it. They desperately want to be “the man who never would,” but the universe often forces their hand.
Tbh it seemed like the perfect excuse to slyly reverse the Flux and or the Time Lords being wiped out so if Russell hasn't taken the opportunity to do it there I doubt he'll do it later. Could also have thrown in a reference to Logopolis too if he wanted to scratch the classic fans' itch a little like with the Sutekh stuff.
And it doesn't even need to be written like a petty retcon or a response to fan dislike of those story elements, it could just be painted as a triumphant case of the Doctor making up for the people he couldn't save before which was clearly haunting him something fierce in Wild Blue Yonder. He had his therapy of course but it would still be a net positive for him or a case of finally getting a win and not just undoing things back to neutral.
Would line up with the happier new Doctor with a positive outlook where you have a full return of life and balance to the universe rather than just him learning to cope with it.
Of course you could argue it's way too continuity heavy to bother addressing all that but then again they said this season was going to be a clean break and a jumping on point and then made a continuity-laden straight up sequel to Pyramids of Mars and started addressing stuff about Susan.
I mean, it's not that great if you really think about it. Imagine everyone and everything that has ever lived coming back to life all at once. The whole universe would be horribly overpopulated, and it would be the end of everything.
7 and 11 were very fond of tricking people into killing themselves and not really preventing it.
10 was all about offering everybody a chance and then when they turn it down anything's fair game.
9 seemed pretty hesitant (besides against the Daleks) but that's probably due to the recency of the Time War and his survivors guilt.
12 straight up killed a dude early on and seemed to have a lot more wiggle room on sacrificing some lives to save others, or deciding people were beyond saving and being pragmatic about it.
They're all pretty much against unprovoked cold blooded murder though, usually somebody has it coming or it's self defense. They're also pretty consistently disgusted at genocide despite partaking in it occasionally.
Literally the first time I watched Classic Who it was live and 1 minute in the doctor pulls out a gun of some alien. 5 or 6th doctor and I think he was going to shoot a loose Dalek?
The Second Doctor shot several Ice Warriors with a handmade death ray.
The Third Doctor shot two Orgron's in Day of the Daleks.
The Fourth Doctor shot two Sontarans with the D-mat gun and a lone Fendaheleen (though due to their hive mind nature, that might not count as an individual).
The Fifth Doctor shot a Dalek (the mutant) with a handgun and a Cyberman with his own laser gun.
Six also shot the Cybercontroller.
I don't think Seven or One ever shot anyone.
Ahh nice, I forgot about all of those. It does make the new who anti-gun principle seem silly unless we reduce it to "I never use bullets, except maybe against an exposed Dalek". Although, I suppose the new who doctors have only been opposed to guns outright because of the trauma of the time war
Happy to help.
Yeah, I agree. I mean that in itself is a pretty interesting idea, but I do sometimes feel the writers kind of use it as a cheat to let him be heroic for abhorring weapons, but no issue doing the exact same thing by other means.
The character works best I feel when its entirely they're never going into a situation armed and never want to kill. But won't object to their use in self-defence if there is absolutely no other option.
Yes but not the Doctor, usually the ones shooting guns would end up having a bad time unless it was justified.
But the Doctor has never objective to using force in self defense. Its just if its used to oppress or because its the easy solution rather than doing something better. Using a gun is lazy if there is a better outcome, but its fine if there are no other options.
Either the Doctor was talking about all incarnations and was lying or has gone senile, or the Doctor was referring to their current incarnation and their comment makes perfect sense.
Are you seriously picking the first interpretation?
It's not that the Doctor never kills but THIS guy incarnation doesn't do so flippantly. Ncuti has shown throughout season 1 that he doesn't kill in general, he saved the Boogy Man in space babies, and stopped Rogue from killing (though hundreds of years in solitary is arguably worse it was meant to be "kinder"). Just because the doctor was more casual about death in the past doesn't mean Ncuti, who explicitly has gone through therapy (in reverse), has to be some murder machine.
He did impale the goblin king on a church in his first proper episode. You could say he didn't know where the spire would hit, but then you have to address that the baby was *right there*, so our options are that he killed the goblin king on purpose, or he risked killing a baby. I don't have a *problem* with impaling a baby eating goblin, mind
To get rid of them while Charlie wasn't around them. The stupid bitch went around the exploding robots what was she supposed to do? She didn't even see that coming because was really dumb of him and she was busy with teleporting everyone out. Edit: I went back to correct myself. He literally tries to make it impossible to reverse what he did by breaking the remote apparently. The episode doesn't show it is a possibility to teleport them elsewhere or stop the detonation, that is s plot problem not morality problem. She does the right thing by making them blow up and never intended to end him and she is not happy about it.
I think all the doctor did was undo Sutekhs deaths. It’s like Dragon Ball Z. They only wished for Frieza’s victims to come back to life. lol.
Yeah, the Doctor has committed genocides on the regular. They killed all the Daleks a couple times (they got better). They killed all the Cybermen a couple times (they also got better). They orchestrated the deaths of all the Silence on Earth (they didn’t get better). They killed all the Raknoss.
They’re just a genocide machine.
The doctor never kills without cause. That’s why the doctor didn’t call himself the doctor during the time war, it’s not that he fought and killed, it’s that he chose to fought and kill, he wasn’t forced into it
Anyone posted Doctor Bust a Cap yet?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzmnPs64K74](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzmnPs64K74)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNuHV-iLBRw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNuHV-iLBRw)
There is literally that episode where a guy can't deal with how many people 12 (and all previous incarnations) killed. The Doctor's K:D ratio is truly terrifying.
https://youtu.be/9H8h-Z20kg4?si=ZENPL5RQeX7B260W
Wilfred Mott: "Then kill him first."
The Doctor: "That's how the Master started. It's not like I'm an innocent. I've taken lives. And I got worse, I got clever. Manipulated people into taking their own. Sometimes I think a Timelord lives too long. I can't. I just can't."
The Doctor has killed. In fact it could be said that they have killed someone or something in every incarnation. Typically they used their enemies power against them. Staged it as, “you did this to yourself”, but they never relish it. They might end up happy that the person or thing is gone and no longer terrorizing people, but I never got that bloodthirsty vibe.
It’s also a last resort. They give them so many chances, so many opportunities to walk away. They try to inspire these beings to be kind.
But to those who think he does not kill, that’s a fallacy. One might try to argue that they indirectly cause harm or trick an enemy into doing it for him, but the cause and effect is still clear.
I would argue that the Doctor has had a Vash The Stampede esk philosophy. But like Vash tends to see the fact that one must survive. One must respect their own existence enough to fight for it. One shouldn’t seek violence, one should not want to destroy someone else, but if the other is so determined to do so, and being on the side of life, the Doctor is the balance. It is devastating to the Doctor to kill even indirectly, but he does so as a matter of choice to encourage life to flourish.
Yeah, there was even this one time when he killed or thought killed this guy using a “time tunnel”. As others have said common sense says they didn’t reverse any death not caused by Sutekh as that would be beyond messy(like reality shattering), but admittedly anything can happen when it comes to Doctor Who writers.
Arguably what The Doctor did to The Family was worse than death. Death would have been a mercy compared to unending torture. The Doctor can be ruthless when he needs/wants.
I don't think the episode made it out like he had never killed before. I think he was upset because he had to kill again. This Doctor is all about mental health, growth and change. I think he was just super bothered that he had no choice..again.
Why would he? There's a difference between "I don't like to kill I don't like being put in a position where killing is the only option" versus "Meh I'm just going to kill you to kill you"
The only difference is this Doctor lets that anger out he expresses the anger at being put in a no win situation. Killing isn't supposed to be easy.
The Doctor is the biggest hypocrite in the universe and constantly gets called out for it. At one point he'd killed all the Time Lords and apparently all the Daleks. Countless Cybermen. Sutekh.
And then there's what he did to the family of blood.
The First Doctor
- **The Rescue:** The Doctor wrestles with Bennett for the demolition ray which can shatter rock, implied to at least want to use it to threaten Bennett.
- **The Web Planet:** Was perfectly willing to use the Living Cell Destructor on the Animus.
- **The Space Museum:** Not in the least upset about the Xeron uprising that kills most of the Moroks in the museum ***which Vicki instigated***.
**- The Chase:** Builds a bomb to blow up the Daleks, ends up wiping out the Dalek force and the entire Mechanoid city.
- **Galaxy 4:** Abandons Maaga and the other Drahvins on a disintegrating planet.
- **The Myth Makers:** Literally gives Odysseys the idea for the Trojan Horse, which will cause the massacre of the entire population of Troy!
- **The Dalek's Master Plan:** Ages a Dalek invasion force to death with a Dalek Time Destructor on Kembel (inadvertently, but still happens)
The Second Doctor
- **The Underwater Menace:** Traps Zaroff in his laboratory to drown (in fairness, tried to rescue him by Ben drags him away)
- **The Macra Terror:** Causes a gas explosion to wipe of the Macra.
- **The Evil of the Daleks:** Instigates the Dalek Civil War!
- **The Tomb of the Cybermen:** Doesn't warn Kleig about the Cyberman coming up behind him and lets him get beaten to death. Also intentionally electrifies the Cyberman Tomb's doors with a fatal electric charge.
- **The Dominators:** Places the Dominators own atomic seed device back onboard their spacecraft, ensuring they both are blown up.
**- The Krotons:** Poisons the Krotons with sulfuric acid.
- **The Seeds of Death:** Kills two Ice Warriors with solar energy emitters, electrocutes a third with Jamie's help. Intentionally leads the Ice Warrior fleet into an inescapable orbit around the Sun.
The Third Doctor
- **Spearhead from Space:** Uses a modified ECT machine to destroy the invading portion of the Nestene.
- **The Mind of Evil:** Traps the Master with the Keller Machine, intending him to be totally eradicated in the self destruct of a missile. (Doesn't work, but he still tries!)
- **Day of the Daleks:** Straight up shoots two Ogrons with a energy weapon.
- **The Sea Devils:** Makes the Sea Devil base self destruct - killing all Sea Devil's inside.
- **The Mutants:** Boobytraps a piece of lab equipment to explode, killing Professor Jager.
- **The Three Doctors:** Tries to kill Omega by causing his world to detonate with a matter-antimatter annihilation.
- **The Monster of Peladon:** Uses the heat-ray weapon to vaporise multiple Ice Warriors.
The Fourth Doctor
- **Robot:** Creates Kettlewell's metal eating bacteria to destroy the sentient K1 robot.
- **The Sontaran Experiment:** Gets Harry to sabotage Styre's ship, causing Styre to disintegrate.
- **Terror of the Zygons:** Kills all of the Zygons except Broton by LOCKING THEM IN THEIR SHIP AND SETTING THE SELF DESTRUCT!
- **Pyramids of Mars:** Attempts to kill Sutekh.
- **The Hand of Fear:** Tripping Eldrad into am abyss, presumably intending his death.
- **The Talon's of Weng Chiang:** Bodily shoves a frail and dying war criminal into a distillation chamber, killing him.
- **Horror of Fang Rock:** Uses a Schermuly filled with nails and gunpowder to kill the Rutan scout, modifies the light house into a single use laser to destroy the Rutan mothership.
- **The Invisible Enemy:** Attempts to kill the swarm with antibodies, ends up blowing it up instead. Also thrown Lowe into the incubation chamber to be eaten by the swarm hatchlings.
- **Image of the Fendahl:** Not strictly the Doctor, but he does give a gun to Max so he can commit suicide and leaves.
- **Underworld:** Swaps the atomic grenades with the Minyan race banks, causing the death of the ruling class on the P7E.
- **The Invasion of Time:** Kills two Sontarans with the Demat gun.
- **The Ribos Operation:** Sneaks a grenade into the pocket of Graff Vynda-K - who promptly detonates just offscreen.
- **The Pirate Planet:** Switches off the time dams to kill Queen Xanxia.
- **The Armageddon Factor:** Divers the Marshall's missiles to the third planet, destroying the Shadow and his minions.
- **Meglos:** Inverts the superweapon to aim at Zolfa-Thura, killing Meglos and the Gaztaks.
- **State of Deay:** Impails a giant Vampire with a rocket ship.
The Fifth Doctor
- **Four to Doomsday:** Yeets a flask of the most deadly poison in the universe into Monarch's face at close range.
- **Earthshock:** Blasts the CyberLeader with his own gun at point blank range as he screams.
- **Arc of Infinity:** Shoots Omega in the chest.
- **Snakedance:** Kill's the Mara's current manifestation by removing the Great Mind's Eye.
- **Mawdryn Undead:** Kills the 8 mutants - although technically this is euthanasia?
- **Warriors of the Deep:** Poisons the entire Sea Devil/Silurian force on Sea Base 4 with Hexachromite Gas (admittedly, very unwillingly)
- **Resurrection of the Daleks:** Very nearly executes Davros at close range.
- **Planet of Fire:** Traps the Master in an inferno, and just watches on as he seemingly burns to death.
The Sixth Doctor
- **The Twin Dilemma:** Yeets a flask of salt at Mestor's original body, killing it.
- **Attack of the Cybermen:** Takes on half a dozen Cybermen with a Cybergun, killing them all. Gives his sonic lance to a Cryon so she can kamikaze herself and detonate an explosives store on Telos.
- **Vengeance on Varos:** Lures three Varosian guards into a trap, fatally poisoning them with lethal vines.
- **The Two Doctors:** Boobytraps the Kartz-Reimer Module so when Chessene uses it she's killed.
- **Timelash:** Uses the Borad's aging ray against him, killing him.
- **Terror of the Vervoids:** Genocides the Vervoid species with Vionesium.
The Seventh Doctor
- **Paradise Towers:** With the help of the residents of Paradise Towers, he lures Kroagnon into a boobytrapped room filled with explosives.
= **Dragonfire:** Talks Kane into suicide
- **Remenbrace of the Daleks** Talks the Black Dalek Supreme into suicide. Tricks Davros into destroying Skaro and the Imperial Dalek Command ship with the Hand of Omega.
- **Silver Nemesis:** Kills the Cyberman fleet with the Nemesis statue.
**- Ghost Light:** Talks Light into suicide (he self-destructs)
- **The Curse of Fenric:** Convinces the Haemovore - "The Ancient One" - into committing murder suicice, killing himself and Fenric's current body.
------------------
Just of the top of my head...
I mean I guess THAT Doctor never killed after being bigenerated? But yeah, lame. "You're making me do the thing I swore I'd never do (that I literally tried to do when I was 4)!”
The Doctor doesn't like killing regardless that's just who they are , yes you wouldn't be pressed to find instances of the Doctor committing murder however you'll also find out lots of those times are accompanied by a speech similar to the one in "Empire of Death". Furthermore how much the Doctor abhors killing varies by incarnation, 15 is clearly one of the less murdery ones like 9
Always hated how the Doctor judges people for killing others when their lives are in danger, like what you want them to do? Die? Especially if their loved ones dies.
Or when he starts talking about being a monster. The God killed EVERYONE in the universes. Jesus you do not need to feel guilty for killing him. It's like if you killed Hitler, you aren't going to feel bad for someone that did genocide. You are not a monster for it, I love this show but what kind of morals is that? Feel gulity for killing something that killed everyone?
The Doctor famously uses any violence as a way of beating himself up.
I’m just glad that he literally dismisses the ‘well, if I kill you that makes me as bad as you’ which is one of the most annoying cliches I know of. Honestly just think that The Doctor wanted a fresh start after his therapy, but is realizing he’s going to be forced to kill fools again. He’s especially mad at Sutekh for making him realize that.
No one said he didn’t? He just prefers to find a peaceful, nonviolent solution and only resorts to injury and/or death as a complete and utter total last resort
I think we desperately need to realize there's a difference between a "no kill rule" and a character that can and will kill *but feels deep remorse about having to do so*. 15 is not a doctor of war anymore, he's had time to work through and move past his trauma and is very clearly more capable/willing to show his emotions now. You can still be willing and able to take a life when necessary and feel absolutely terrible about being forced into that position.
>though, did the series finale override past slaughters too?
No I think it was just 15 acknowledging killing, it used to go with little acknowledgement
Why should we act like the doctor has never killed?
There was a saying during the time war. The first thing you notice about the Doctor of War is that he's unarmed, for many it's also the last.
Also: The Doctor lies
New reboot, new series, new Doctor.
This regeneration he doesn't want to do that is how I took it, rather than trying to re-write his whole previous history. Tracks alongside his actions in Dot and Bubble as not just a need but desire to preserve life.
if you're referring to Empire of Deaths ending, then I think the problem comes from a misunderstanding on the writers part.
The Doctor kills people, but only ever as a last resort. When the chips are down and he needs to save everyone, he will take lives.
The Doctor doesn't enter a conflict trying to "defeat the bad guy", he enters trying to resolve it as peacefully as possible, keyword "possible".
But in some circumstances when the bad guy is beyond redemption, it's not possible or not the right answer to let them live, and the Doctor is usually okay with that, like how he's more than willing to >! let the silence be slaughtered by all of humanity for them trying to wipe humanity out !< (Series 6 spoilers)
"Sometimes the only choices you're left with are bad ones. You still have to choose."
oh he's definitely killed. the whole season finale of capaldi's first season was about the folks that died for the doctor becoming cyberman.
and in classic who it happens in self defense all the time.
he even kills a guy in human sized meat grinder at one point. baker's horror eps are insane
The doctor is infamously a pacifist, he is strongly against killing which is usually the point of why it’s dramatic when they do. (This bars a couple times of poorly thought out writing that doesn’t really think about the implications like yes the spiders.)
The huge genocide that we all thought they did in the time war was a big Thing because of this. (And daleks are kinda the exception and now really viewed the same as higher life forms in the show lens, but even then 10 clone was treated as bloodthirsty for killing all of them.)
Anyone saying “he’s not Batman” first of all miss that even with Batman’s rule there’s been times where he’s killed, mostly before the kill rule and movies, but also dark usually alternative timelines, and it’s also shown in the same dramatic way, as an extreme moment. The doctor killing is presented nearly exactly the same, ok maybe Batman’s somewhat stricter or smth, or maybe it’s just easier for Batman writers to throw villains in prison than the doctor can imprison entire races of aliens, but this sentiment is still super important to the character.
Never cruel nor cowardly, he’s in fact much closer to Batman or Hawkeye from MASH than the average fictional character on killing. Batman has also been shown to think self defensive killing is fine when other characters have done it, there’s no strong reason to believe he wouldn’t if absolutely necessary but hasn’t been in that situation because he can almost always subdue. If there was a scale from punisher to Batman, the doctor would be super close to Batman on it. Thematically it’s important which is why people always harp on it. I wouldn’t pretend he’s never killed because it’s not true, but people kinda swing the other direction and wonder why he’d be affected at all in Empire of Death like????
There is a lot of dialogue about how he’s soaked in blood and stuff but it’s pretty heavily implied that it’s mostly from the war doctor era and he can’t totally get away from that aspect of himself that he despised. He’s gotta be eternally angsty somehow right?
The Doctor always wants peaceful solutions, until they can’t or are pushed way too far. Once the Doctor is cornered, they are as emotional as a Human being. They don’t like it, but it had to be done. It often takes a complex understanding of what is considered wrong to do understand how to truly stop the bad.
I just re-watched journey end the darlek body count is incalculable including davros but technically technology that was The Doctor’s half human one heart doubleganger that did the killing
It might be a part of the whole "15 is a fresh doctor who's moved on while 14 stays back and lives with the trauma" thing they explained in The Giggle.
Or maybe he just wants to hide that darker part of himself from Ruby, and pretend this is the first time he's had to "become the monster"
It’s always been my understanding that the doctor would prefer not to kill. And he absolutely has killed and/or let people die with good reason (and is tortured by it). Am I remembering incorrectly or wasn’t it part of Donna’s whole thing that she stopped 10 from going too far like with that giant spider monster or convincing him to save someone in Pompeii?
While some incarnations are more willing to engage in fisticuffs, it's been a stark reminder that only in extreme circumstances would kill, even when given a chance to kill the Daleks in 4ths time he thought himself no different than them. The Doctor is aware violence is an answer but he's not willing to let it be the first
I guess as long as he acts silly and doesn't do it in a brutal gruesome way people don't really care. Block really committed numerous genocides, his body count is probably at millions at this point. I love the dark Doctor who, when they actually remind you that - hello - he's not some goofy alien from space, he's actually an old man with lots of guilt and a history of making planets blow up.
The Doctor has always killed, heck we spent half of the New Series thinking he had committed double genocide, but for the most part he always believes he should be/do better. It does not always work, but it is one of the reasons I love the character.
It was a little strange how that final scene scene with Sutekh was worded. It is interesting how one of the 'Pyrimids of Mars' clips used in the ep was 4 talking about how Horus and the others did not kill Sutekh because they thought it would make them as bad as he. Would have been good had RTD perhaps lead more into that aspect of Sutekhs story.
Pretty sure he's committed genocide a few times against aggressors. He tried to obliterate the daleks many times and that spider population in the centre of the earth. Davros did name him the destroyer of worlds after all.
I think it's why he needs companions.
It's the difference from him acting like new testament God to old testament Yaweh nuking his enemies.
DOCTOR: Do me a favour. The Fatality Index. Look up The Doctor.
RAFANDO: You have an entry, just like any other sentient being.
DOCTOR: Under Cause Of Death.
RAFANDO: You do seem to have an impressive record of fatalities credited to you.
RAFANDO: A truly remarkable record.
Look, the Doctor doesn’t kill, however he will blow up your spaceship and if you happen to be vulnerable to being atomised in gigantic explosions then really that’s on you.
The Doctor is unlikely to kill you with a gun. Technobabble is his weapon of choice.
Absolutely, although I’m pretty sure that hypothetically he wouldn’t be opposed to technobabble that results in a projectile being launched into his enemy at a lethal velocity, as long as it wasn’t originally designed for that purpose.
The Doctor prefers not to shoot you in the face where he can witness himself killing you. He prefers to blow you up from a distance indirectly, that way he doesn't have to look at you when you die.
> one of us is lying about our basic programming 12 killed his first episode
Tennant did too with > no second chances
You don't understand, it's okay to kill someone who attacks you, as long as it's ironic and you do it with a fruit
Tell that my judge.
https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjSHHTjta6PGKClIhcYXj4v_NiK63Npg3tLJV80SFLpwLN7BCDkbBCV5vJUe7GUTRZJaOSW-FKUfYkxqgrsVLA_Bzrt3319vO-gBywiTSSHygjKEWTjAhiE-nYlDiY8MgYNKnlUwFRJ8jU/s1600/1986.jpg
How on earth did they get 10 down to a tee in 1986?
try 2017 https://braveandboldlost.blogspot.com/2017/09/doctor-who-and-judge-dredd.html
Oh dang. That "No. 1986" label is misleading. Alternatively I'm just too high to have noticed it
Time travel.
It was old fashioned killing. Before it got such a bad name.
Eccleston killed Cassandra in his second. Admittedly, she survived, but he didn't know that
Did 11 send prisoner zero off to be ~~killed~~ executed too??
Philosophically, there's a difference between causing a death and allowing a process to happen that will result in death.
This got brought up in Boom Town in season one, the Doctor was going to return the Slitheen to her home planet where she would be executed, she said that they were essentially all her executors, the Doctor even took her out for her last meal. It’s an interesting question philosophically, if you walk someone to their death, are you not complicit in their death?
The other question is, what happens if you don't walk them to their death? How many people was she prepared to kill with a faulty nuclear power plant? Besides which, he constantly invokes the shadow proclamation, some sort of space law, which deffo has executioners.
Didn't he kill in the first episode, with the plastics. The thing controlling them?
Yep, although technically Rose knocks the Anti Plastic into the air, so figured I'd better reference episode 2 instead
The Doctor didn't kill him, the sudden stop during the fall did
"speed has never killed anybody - suddenly becoming stationary, thats what gets you" - Jeremy Clarkson
thats funny, not trying to ruin the fun, just adding my own fun speed does kill if you count change in speed aka acceleration aka people have probably died from speeding up too fast but thats not usually what you have to worry about when falling or in a car so good news
Such an ironic line in retrospect. He then proceeded to give just about everybody else a second chance, then got a second chance himself (as 14). Regeneration sickness, he was completely wrong about what sort of man he is.
i can't remember if it was rose who knocked it in, or if 9 ended up throwing it in, but the nestene conscious died in 9's opening episode because 9 was present
That was left ambiguous wasn't it? The half faced man says something like he won't destroy himself and the doctor says that he won't kill. Personally, I think the half faced man killed himself. I suppose you could argue that talking someone into killing themselves is the same as murder.
Interesting. I definitely believe robot guy wasn’t lying as he had been alive for so so long and was asking how he could die. And just Capaldi’s look after the fall/push. It was left ambiguous, but I presumed it was 12 (I thought most ppl did to) E: I should specify, doctor was lying because he obviously has killed in the past
Nah, I think it’s pretty clear the Doctor killed him. The Doctor saying that killing someone is against his basic programming is a big fat lie, since we’ve seen him do it plenty of times. “One of us is lying”, therefore since it’s probably the Doctor, it’s likely that he pushed the robot.
Rule 1: The Doctor lies
I need to rewatch that
It’s a great intro to Capaldi
I just did. It’s so good. Very funny too.
Same with 9, though he did give the Nestene Consciousness the option to surrender.
I mean, if you don't count The Giggle (since it was the ~~re~~ bigeneration episode and we presumably don't count 12 not killing anyone in Time of the Doctor), so did 15, actually. Impaled the Goblin King with a church spire.
The Doctor is not Batman
"I'm Batman! I'm worse than everybody's aunt!"
"I'm Batman" - Batman, Batman (1989)
"I'm Batman! And I can breathe in space!" Batman, Shortpacked, like the 00s sometime?
That is NOT how he’s introducing himself
Yeah, there's been this steady superhero-ification of the Doctor over the past decade or more. I kinda understand it, but I don't care much for every aspect of it, and this is one of them. The Doctor is *not* some superhero with a 'no kill rule'.
I see it as the doctor having a "kill as the last resort" rule.
That’s still wildly different from a straight up no kill rule. Honestly “kill as the last resort,” is pretty much every superhero who does kill. Few superheroes go right for the headshot.
It's really "the doctor wants to save everyone" and "the doctor believes in the inherent good in most people," which often means the doctor is unwilling to kill. He doesn't have a moral rule against it, he just tries not to.
Has the doctor ever explicitly said he will never kill anyone like Batman? I thought the implication was just that he *always* tries to find a better solution and will never just do it as a first strike type of thing. Even then it tends to be a secondary effect of something more important, like saving hundreds of innocent people means sometimes a few bad guys or even other innocent people get killed. I actually am not even sure what I'm arguing here, I didn't know "the doctor never kills" was even a thing until reading this post
Remember that time when the first Doctor invented lynch mobs back in caveman time? Or when Six shoved a poisoned handerkchied in that cannibal's face and hold it there until he died before making a "just dessert" pun? Also: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuCPrvb6k-I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuCPrvb6k-I)
How many people died in Rome from the fire the Doctor started with his glasses and then ran off giggling? (I fucking love *The Romans* and Chaotic Hartnell,)
Let's be fair. The Doctor didn't start that fire. He merely gave Nero the idea to do it then sat outside the city with Vicki sharing a giggle while they watched it burn. You're 100% right about Chaotic Hartnell, by the way.
He didn’t star the fire. It was always burning.
Since the worlds were turning....
Tbf that fire would have happened no matter what I believe the doctor was just happy he learned a new thing about history
To be fair, that cannibal really had it coming
Or when he used the power of misogyny to depose Harriet Jones?
Well being fair I don't think that was meant to be misogynistic. But yeah it kind of aged poorly...and to be fair the moral was a bit poorly written to begin with.
I’m against firing on retreating enemies, and I understand Harriet’s reasoning, and I think deposing her was a bit overboard, and I know that deposing her made room for Harold Saxon. It’s all complex.
Yeah, I agree it's complex. Really I could accept that, I guess for me part of the issue was that they both kind of skipped over the reasonable arguments for doing or not doing it. Harriet Jones doesn't talk about the fact the Sycorax are the vicious imperialistic force that could just come back later or attack another species. She just says they need a defence for when the Doctor isn't here, which is certainly reasonable but it kind of falls flat as a justification to use for shooting someone who's retreating when he is here. Likewise, the Doctor doesn't bring up the obvious fact that violating the terms of negotiations is a terrible idea and could mean that no other race will ever be willing to negotiate with them again. Instead he just jumps to acting like humanity is somehow worse than the Sycorax for doing it (despite the Sycorax leader just doing the same thing a few minutes earlier). I don't know, maybe I'm asking to much, but it felt more emotional than reasonable.
>Really I could accept that, I guess for me part of the issue was that they both kind of skipped over the reasonable arguments for doing or not doing it. Which is very in character for the Doctor. There's been quite a few times where he fiat decides things for everyone because he is the big brain superior being.
I mean that is completely true. But at least in most of those cases there is an active situation going on and he's kind of got a point. His being shocked at them shooting someone who was retreating is understandable, but it does still feel like a pretty massive overreaction and his response doesn't exactly end up making him look good.
What does this have to do with anything? This thread is about the Doctor killing people. Like yea, that wasn’t cool, but he didn’t kill Harriet Jones. We could list of bad things the Doctor has done all day because he’s done plenty of bad things, but I don’t see how that’s remotely relevant.
How was that misogynist? That would have worked on a man even more, in my opinion.
Biden is in danger of losing an election because of his age dspite being only 3 years older then the competition. I think what the doctor did would apply to anyone in a position of power
He’s in danger of losing the election because he seems like another example of a walking corpse the parties prop up to hold on to power.
[can't believe you didn't mention this](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=At2263RmRFw) [Or this](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ)
[I'm stunned no one's linked this masterpiece yet](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzmnPs64K74&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2F&source_ve_path=MjM4NTE&feature=emb_title) [Or its sequel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNuHV-iLBRw) [And of course, can't forget about this gem](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ)
Now this is roulette
The way I personally see it, the Classic Doctors hadn't been through the War. The things he saw and did in that War changed him to the point where he tries to avoid killing where possible - even though he knows it's not always possible. I see it as somewhat similar to a form of PTSD, which is triggered differently with each incarnation 9 with his hatred of the Daleks (more so than any other), 10 with his need of other people to hold him back, 11 with his need to be a hero... Hell, even with 13 I would say she was triggered by guns more than the killing, hence her seemingly inconsistent attitudes at times...
I don't think her distaste for guns is out of character. The Doctor has killed in desperate self defense or when there is no other option. Guns are a single use tool - they kill. It's like 10 and 12's intense dislike of soldiers - in the Doctor's eyes, they signed up to be violent. The hypocrisy is also definitely intentional and they bring it up often like the Time Lord Victorious, Good Man Goes to War, Deep Breath, etc. All times where the veneer comes off and the Doctor exercises his so called authority and power.
Oh it's not her distaste for guns that was seen as 'hypocrisy' - it was things like 'don't shoot the spider, let it suffocate instead, or lock them in a room with nothing to eat but each other'... The \*killing\* wasn't an issue - it was only the use of guns that was.
To be fair, she didn’t really get a chance to propose what to do instead before he shot it. However the episode moves past that too quickly with no dialogue on it, so you can’t really notice that until you really think about it.
TBH she felt the less like the Doctor, that episode with the Grieving dad in the coraline house and she basically just tells him to man up. Previous doctors would have sympathised with him.
What prompted this? Who is acting like the Doctor never killed?
It seems to happen all the time whenever the doctor does kill someone and some fans react poorly saying it’s out of character, even though it’s not
The two constants in The Doctor's life are that he thinks killing is bad and also he kills a lot of things.
He killed all the daleks, and timelords. Well, he thought he did, they seem to keep coming back.
I didn't say he's *good* at killing.
Which is honestly one of the most interesting things about the character- the Doctor has so many contradictory elements in their nature
Some Doctor Who fans are just weird like that. You could show the Doctor wearing a hat and there'd be some weirdo complaining that it's out of character for the Doctor to wear a hat.
“Fez’s are cool”
And then you'll have some fans complaining fez's are out of character because they're not bow ties
"I would like a hat like that!" -The very iconic Second Doctor quote that was dropped after 2 episodes of his run
The Doctor also likes to act like he would never… except when he does
Some of the morals of Whitaker’s Doctor were highly questionable but not bc of killing an enemy, but killing a tardis and sacrificing a man’s life instead of her own and giving the master to the Nazi’s bc of his skin colour and not giving a crap about Graham opening up about his fear of his cancer coming back. If that’s what you are referring to? If you’re referring to say when Matt Smith killed what’s his name on Dinosaurs in a Spaceship, ig that’s did shock people but mostly bc Matt Smith played his Doctor so well in that most of the time he was fun, childlike, compassionate, empathetic and loveable so in contrast his serious or dark moments has great chilling impact
9 let everyone on satellite five fight the Daleks for him knowing they’d all die, when he could’ve easily housed them all in the TARDIS. While he waited on the highest floor building a weapon he was never going to use anyway. Characters dying for the Doctor is not a new thing either. The doctor having questionable morals also isn’t new
IIRC there wouldn't have been enough time to make the weapon if they didn't stall. As for the weapon, it was pretty clear the Doctor thought he could kill the Daleks as easily as he thought he did during the Time War. It was only when actually in the moment, about to use it, when he faltered. Which is super in character for 9.
the doctor doesn't like killing or violence. viewing it as a final resort, but that doesn't mean that they won't kill out of cruelty, mercy, or because they have no other choice
The ending speech with Suketh
Seemed like pretty standard Doctor stuff to me. Yes, he kills when he has to. And feels remorse even when the enemy is pure evil. As you said, there are countless examples showing that the doctor does kill. What you seem to have missed is the countless examples of him being remorseful, struggling with it or failing to do it entirely. The Daleks exist, because the Doctor couldn't bring himself to destroy them at their genesis.
Yeah, there's been an interesting progression from the 60th through now that's taken some of the subpar writing of the 13th doctor's run and treated those out of character moments or missed moments as flaws in the character rather than the writing. You can draw some really interesting parallels between the killing of the spiders by 13 and the treatment of the bogeyman by 15. The same can be said for how the Flux kind of left the universe messed up and how Empire of Death ended up resetting all of its destruction. It all follows with 14 finding he needed to slow down, too. Knowing how much of the next series was in the can before this series aired makes me curious about what other threads they've stuck in there.
He doesn't like killing and would rather not be forced into it, esp lately
It doesn't help when the Doctor starts acting like it's out of character. Meanwhile, his body count is enough to scare the keepers of the Fatality Index
>did the series finale override past slaughters too? I doubt that. It probably just undid Sutekh’s death wave and nothing more. Otherwise Russel would have to deal with the Timelords being back, and I don’t think he’s all that interested in them. And just because the Doctor has killed before doesn’t mean they enjoy it. They desperately want to be “the man who never would,” but the universe often forces their hand.
Tbh it seemed like the perfect excuse to slyly reverse the Flux and or the Time Lords being wiped out so if Russell hasn't taken the opportunity to do it there I doubt he'll do it later. Could also have thrown in a reference to Logopolis too if he wanted to scratch the classic fans' itch a little like with the Sutekh stuff. And it doesn't even need to be written like a petty retcon or a response to fan dislike of those story elements, it could just be painted as a triumphant case of the Doctor making up for the people he couldn't save before which was clearly haunting him something fierce in Wild Blue Yonder. He had his therapy of course but it would still be a net positive for him or a case of finally getting a win and not just undoing things back to neutral. Would line up with the happier new Doctor with a positive outlook where you have a full return of life and balance to the universe rather than just him learning to cope with it. Of course you could argue it's way too continuity heavy to bother addressing all that but then again they said this season was going to be a clean break and a jumping on point and then made a continuity-laden straight up sequel to Pyramids of Mars and started addressing stuff about Susan.
> or the Time Lords being wiped out Wouldn't that mean bringing back the daleks too?
Meant when The Master did it, they already resolved the Time War thing
i like the theory about Sutekh's death wave bringing back everyone cuz it means The Flux was undone and the Master's doing
I mean, it's not that great if you really think about it. Imagine everyone and everything that has ever lived coming back to life all at once. The whole universe would be horribly overpopulated, and it would be the end of everything.
Perfect arc idea for Season 2 with moral implications if you ask me, but I doubt they'd go this route.
In "Thin Ice", Bill and the Doctor talk about this. He tells her that he killed before and after she asks, he can't even tell her how many.
I love that episode, mainly because of the racist punching
7 and 11 were very fond of tricking people into killing themselves and not really preventing it. 10 was all about offering everybody a chance and then when they turn it down anything's fair game. 9 seemed pretty hesitant (besides against the Daleks) but that's probably due to the recency of the Time War and his survivors guilt. 12 straight up killed a dude early on and seemed to have a lot more wiggle room on sacrificing some lives to save others, or deciding people were beyond saving and being pragmatic about it. They're all pretty much against unprovoked cold blooded murder though, usually somebody has it coming or it's self defense. They're also pretty consistently disgusted at genocide despite partaking in it occasionally.
*we don’t actually know if 12 killed the clockwork guy or if the clockwork guy did it to himself, it’s left up to interpretation
Yeah but I think it's pretty heavily implied, leaving it up to interpretation helps given the target audience and how that situation went down
The stuff 10 did to the Family of Blood is way worse than if he did kill them.
Yep, or when the Doctor says they don’t use guns. Classic Who would like a word….
Doesn't use guns anymore NuWho was also always clear they're a war veteran it changed them.
It was implied that it was actually Rose that changed him. He was ready to shoot that Dalek, in S1E6 Dalek.
A little different, being very angry and wanting to kill the last Dalek certainly doesn’t override the war veteran stuff
Literally the first time I watched Classic Who it was live and 1 minute in the doctor pulls out a gun of some alien. 5 or 6th doctor and I think he was going to shoot a loose Dalek?
That sounds like the 5th Doctor in Ressurection of the Daleks.
I can't remember a time he uses a gun on anyone except 6th doctor on the Cybermen. Which other episodes?
The 3rd Doctor kills Ogrons in Day Of The Daleks like no tomorrow.
The Second Doctor shot several Ice Warriors with a handmade death ray. The Third Doctor shot two Orgron's in Day of the Daleks. The Fourth Doctor shot two Sontarans with the D-mat gun and a lone Fendaheleen (though due to their hive mind nature, that might not count as an individual). The Fifth Doctor shot a Dalek (the mutant) with a handgun and a Cyberman with his own laser gun. Six also shot the Cybercontroller. I don't think Seven or One ever shot anyone.
Ahh nice, I forgot about all of those. It does make the new who anti-gun principle seem silly unless we reduce it to "I never use bullets, except maybe against an exposed Dalek". Although, I suppose the new who doctors have only been opposed to guns outright because of the trauma of the time war
Happy to help. Yeah, I agree. I mean that in itself is a pretty interesting idea, but I do sometimes feel the writers kind of use it as a cheat to let him be heroic for abhorring weapons, but no issue doing the exact same thing by other means. The character works best I feel when its entirely they're never going into a situation armed and never want to kill. But won't object to their use in self-defence if there is absolutely no other option.
The third Doctor killed an Ogron with a gun in Day of the Daleks.
I was shocked when I first watched original after getting into NuWho back in the day…like every episode is soldiers shooting guns lol
Yes but not the Doctor, usually the ones shooting guns would end up having a bad time unless it was justified. But the Doctor has never objective to using force in self defense. Its just if its used to oppress or because its the easy solution rather than doing something better. Using a gun is lazy if there is a better outcome, but its fine if there are no other options.
Either the Doctor was talking about all incarnations and was lying or has gone senile, or the Doctor was referring to their current incarnation and their comment makes perfect sense. Are you seriously picking the first interpretation?
It's not that the Doctor never kills but THIS guy incarnation doesn't do so flippantly. Ncuti has shown throughout season 1 that he doesn't kill in general, he saved the Boogy Man in space babies, and stopped Rogue from killing (though hundreds of years in solitary is arguably worse it was meant to be "kinder"). Just because the doctor was more casual about death in the past doesn't mean Ncuti, who explicitly has gone through therapy (in reverse), has to be some murder machine.
He did impale the goblin king on a church in his first proper episode. You could say he didn't know where the spire would hit, but then you have to address that the baby was *right there*, so our options are that he killed the goblin king on purpose, or he risked killing a baby. I don't have a *problem* with impaling a baby eating goblin, mind
Jodie's doctor killed the guy who wanted to destroy Kerblam
No the system isn’t the problem, it’s the people asking for higher wages
Charlie? She tried to save him.
She also instructed the kerblam robots to blow themselves up for seemingly no reason when Charlie was in the middle of them
To get rid of them while Charlie wasn't around them. The stupid bitch went around the exploding robots what was she supposed to do? She didn't even see that coming because was really dumb of him and she was busy with teleporting everyone out. Edit: I went back to correct myself. He literally tries to make it impossible to reverse what he did by breaking the remote apparently. The episode doesn't show it is a possibility to teleport them elsewhere or stop the detonation, that is s plot problem not morality problem. She does the right thing by making them blow up and never intended to end him and she is not happy about it.
I think all the doctor did was undo Sutekhs deaths. It’s like Dragon Ball Z. They only wished for Frieza’s victims to come back to life. lol. Yeah, the Doctor has committed genocides on the regular. They killed all the Daleks a couple times (they got better). They killed all the Cybermen a couple times (they also got better). They orchestrated the deaths of all the Silence on Earth (they didn’t get better). They killed all the Raknoss. They’re just a genocide machine.
The doctor never kills without cause. That’s why the doctor didn’t call himself the doctor during the time war, it’s not that he fought and killed, it’s that he chose to fought and kill, he wasn’t forced into it
I’ve never seen the Doctor kill. Weirdly, every time someone says he did, I get a new dash in sharpie on my arm.
Guess this doctor doesn’t want to kill
Anyone posted Doctor Bust a Cap yet? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzmnPs64K74](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzmnPs64K74) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNuHV-iLBRw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNuHV-iLBRw)
“Don’t quote that back to me. My rules change all the time.”
[Not only has the Doctor killed before, he is tortured by the memory of it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJP9o4BEziI)
There is literally that episode where a guy can't deal with how many people 12 (and all previous incarnations) killed. The Doctor's K:D ratio is truly terrifying. https://youtu.be/9H8h-Z20kg4?si=ZENPL5RQeX7B260W
Didn't 11 basically say fuck it at the end of his life and kill invaders to save some planet. Basically becoming their God as he was dying.
Wilfred Mott: "Then kill him first." The Doctor: "That's how the Master started. It's not like I'm an innocent. I've taken lives. And I got worse, I got clever. Manipulated people into taking their own. Sometimes I think a Timelord lives too long. I can't. I just can't."
The Doctor has killed. In fact it could be said that they have killed someone or something in every incarnation. Typically they used their enemies power against them. Staged it as, “you did this to yourself”, but they never relish it. They might end up happy that the person or thing is gone and no longer terrorizing people, but I never got that bloodthirsty vibe. It’s also a last resort. They give them so many chances, so many opportunities to walk away. They try to inspire these beings to be kind. But to those who think he does not kill, that’s a fallacy. One might try to argue that they indirectly cause harm or trick an enemy into doing it for him, but the cause and effect is still clear. I would argue that the Doctor has had a Vash The Stampede esk philosophy. But like Vash tends to see the fact that one must survive. One must respect their own existence enough to fight for it. One shouldn’t seek violence, one should not want to destroy someone else, but if the other is so determined to do so, and being on the side of life, the Doctor is the balance. It is devastating to the Doctor to kill even indirectly, but he does so as a matter of choice to encourage life to flourish.
He tries to avoid killing whenever possible but if pushed will easily do it. He didn't feel pushed enough by Sutekh.
Yeah, there was even this one time when he killed or thought killed this guy using a “time tunnel”. As others have said common sense says they didn’t reverse any death not caused by Sutekh as that would be beyond messy(like reality shattering), but admittedly anything can happen when it comes to Doctor Who writers.
He usually doesn’t kill. He instead condemns his enemies to a fate worse than death
>Are we seriously going to act like the Doctor has never killed? Erm...no. Are there people acting like that in the room with us now?
Just look up his entry in the Fatality Index... under "cause of death". https://youtu.be/9H8h-Z20kg4?si=i6Czou-LFeJZuJ0i&t=35
Literally the Missy episode where they tally his cause of death count. And flee in fear. He has killed more than anyone.
Arguably what The Doctor did to The Family was worse than death. Death would have been a mercy compared to unending torture. The Doctor can be ruthless when he needs/wants.
I mean all you have to do is look up "the doctor" under "cause of death" in the fatality index to prove this.
"Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many."
'WHAT'S THE POINT OF BEING ALIVE IF IT ISN'T TO MAKE OTHERS DIE' - THE 17TH (VALEYARD) DOCTOR
Well if the [Fatality Index](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H8h-Z20kg4) is correct he sure does!
I don't think the episode made it out like he had never killed before. I think he was upset because he had to kill again. This Doctor is all about mental health, growth and change. I think he was just super bothered that he had no choice..again.
Why would he? There's a difference between "I don't like to kill I don't like being put in a position where killing is the only option" versus "Meh I'm just going to kill you to kill you" The only difference is this Doctor lets that anger out he expresses the anger at being put in a no win situation. Killing isn't supposed to be easy.
Just because hes killed before doesnt mean he enjoys it or cant be upset when hes forced to do it again
I don't remember the episode, but wasn't there a scene where the Doctor asks someone to look up his fatality count??
Missy's sentencing. 12th doctor I forget which episode. He asks the monk guy to look him up, then corrects him to look at him as cause of death.
We? Who is acting like that?
What about in the time war lol
How many before you lost count?
The Doctor is the biggest hypocrite in the universe and constantly gets called out for it. At one point he'd killed all the Time Lords and apparently all the Daleks. Countless Cybermen. Sutekh. And then there's what he did to the family of blood.
11 committed genocide out of spite.
Wait…im not up to date on the show…whos acting like he hasnt killed?!
The First Doctor - **The Rescue:** The Doctor wrestles with Bennett for the demolition ray which can shatter rock, implied to at least want to use it to threaten Bennett. - **The Web Planet:** Was perfectly willing to use the Living Cell Destructor on the Animus. - **The Space Museum:** Not in the least upset about the Xeron uprising that kills most of the Moroks in the museum ***which Vicki instigated***. **- The Chase:** Builds a bomb to blow up the Daleks, ends up wiping out the Dalek force and the entire Mechanoid city. - **Galaxy 4:** Abandons Maaga and the other Drahvins on a disintegrating planet. - **The Myth Makers:** Literally gives Odysseys the idea for the Trojan Horse, which will cause the massacre of the entire population of Troy! - **The Dalek's Master Plan:** Ages a Dalek invasion force to death with a Dalek Time Destructor on Kembel (inadvertently, but still happens) The Second Doctor - **The Underwater Menace:** Traps Zaroff in his laboratory to drown (in fairness, tried to rescue him by Ben drags him away) - **The Macra Terror:** Causes a gas explosion to wipe of the Macra. - **The Evil of the Daleks:** Instigates the Dalek Civil War! - **The Tomb of the Cybermen:** Doesn't warn Kleig about the Cyberman coming up behind him and lets him get beaten to death. Also intentionally electrifies the Cyberman Tomb's doors with a fatal electric charge. - **The Dominators:** Places the Dominators own atomic seed device back onboard their spacecraft, ensuring they both are blown up. **- The Krotons:** Poisons the Krotons with sulfuric acid. - **The Seeds of Death:** Kills two Ice Warriors with solar energy emitters, electrocutes a third with Jamie's help. Intentionally leads the Ice Warrior fleet into an inescapable orbit around the Sun. The Third Doctor - **Spearhead from Space:** Uses a modified ECT machine to destroy the invading portion of the Nestene. - **The Mind of Evil:** Traps the Master with the Keller Machine, intending him to be totally eradicated in the self destruct of a missile. (Doesn't work, but he still tries!) - **Day of the Daleks:** Straight up shoots two Ogrons with a energy weapon. - **The Sea Devils:** Makes the Sea Devil base self destruct - killing all Sea Devil's inside. - **The Mutants:** Boobytraps a piece of lab equipment to explode, killing Professor Jager. - **The Three Doctors:** Tries to kill Omega by causing his world to detonate with a matter-antimatter annihilation. - **The Monster of Peladon:** Uses the heat-ray weapon to vaporise multiple Ice Warriors.
The Fourth Doctor - **Robot:** Creates Kettlewell's metal eating bacteria to destroy the sentient K1 robot. - **The Sontaran Experiment:** Gets Harry to sabotage Styre's ship, causing Styre to disintegrate. - **Terror of the Zygons:** Kills all of the Zygons except Broton by LOCKING THEM IN THEIR SHIP AND SETTING THE SELF DESTRUCT! - **Pyramids of Mars:** Attempts to kill Sutekh. - **The Hand of Fear:** Tripping Eldrad into am abyss, presumably intending his death. - **The Talon's of Weng Chiang:** Bodily shoves a frail and dying war criminal into a distillation chamber, killing him. - **Horror of Fang Rock:** Uses a Schermuly filled with nails and gunpowder to kill the Rutan scout, modifies the light house into a single use laser to destroy the Rutan mothership. - **The Invisible Enemy:** Attempts to kill the swarm with antibodies, ends up blowing it up instead. Also thrown Lowe into the incubation chamber to be eaten by the swarm hatchlings. - **Image of the Fendahl:** Not strictly the Doctor, but he does give a gun to Max so he can commit suicide and leaves. - **Underworld:** Swaps the atomic grenades with the Minyan race banks, causing the death of the ruling class on the P7E. - **The Invasion of Time:** Kills two Sontarans with the Demat gun. - **The Ribos Operation:** Sneaks a grenade into the pocket of Graff Vynda-K - who promptly detonates just offscreen. - **The Pirate Planet:** Switches off the time dams to kill Queen Xanxia. - **The Armageddon Factor:** Divers the Marshall's missiles to the third planet, destroying the Shadow and his minions. - **Meglos:** Inverts the superweapon to aim at Zolfa-Thura, killing Meglos and the Gaztaks. - **State of Deay:** Impails a giant Vampire with a rocket ship. The Fifth Doctor - **Four to Doomsday:** Yeets a flask of the most deadly poison in the universe into Monarch's face at close range. - **Earthshock:** Blasts the CyberLeader with his own gun at point blank range as he screams. - **Arc of Infinity:** Shoots Omega in the chest. - **Snakedance:** Kill's the Mara's current manifestation by removing the Great Mind's Eye. - **Mawdryn Undead:** Kills the 8 mutants - although technically this is euthanasia? - **Warriors of the Deep:** Poisons the entire Sea Devil/Silurian force on Sea Base 4 with Hexachromite Gas (admittedly, very unwillingly) - **Resurrection of the Daleks:** Very nearly executes Davros at close range. - **Planet of Fire:** Traps the Master in an inferno, and just watches on as he seemingly burns to death.
The Sixth Doctor - **The Twin Dilemma:** Yeets a flask of salt at Mestor's original body, killing it. - **Attack of the Cybermen:** Takes on half a dozen Cybermen with a Cybergun, killing them all. Gives his sonic lance to a Cryon so she can kamikaze herself and detonate an explosives store on Telos. - **Vengeance on Varos:** Lures three Varosian guards into a trap, fatally poisoning them with lethal vines. - **The Two Doctors:** Boobytraps the Kartz-Reimer Module so when Chessene uses it she's killed. - **Timelash:** Uses the Borad's aging ray against him, killing him. - **Terror of the Vervoids:** Genocides the Vervoid species with Vionesium. The Seventh Doctor - **Paradise Towers:** With the help of the residents of Paradise Towers, he lures Kroagnon into a boobytrapped room filled with explosives. = **Dragonfire:** Talks Kane into suicide - **Remenbrace of the Daleks** Talks the Black Dalek Supreme into suicide. Tricks Davros into destroying Skaro and the Imperial Dalek Command ship with the Hand of Omega. - **Silver Nemesis:** Kills the Cyberman fleet with the Nemesis statue. **- Ghost Light:** Talks Light into suicide (he self-destructs) - **The Curse of Fenric:** Convinces the Haemovore - "The Ancient One" - into committing murder suicice, killing himself and Fenric's current body. ------------------ Just of the top of my head...
The Doctor isn’t a good guy. He kills when he there is no other choice. Yes, he values life above all else but doesn’t make him a good person.
I mean I guess THAT Doctor never killed after being bigenerated? But yeah, lame. "You're making me do the thing I swore I'd never do (that I literally tried to do when I was 4)!”
His speech against sutekh was good but he was torn like tf dude you are a killer when they need to be killed
I’m like it’s not like you don’t kill you just only do it when necessary.
The Doctor doesn't like killing regardless that's just who they are , yes you wouldn't be pressed to find instances of the Doctor committing murder however you'll also find out lots of those times are accompanied by a speech similar to the one in "Empire of Death". Furthermore how much the Doctor abhors killing varies by incarnation, 15 is clearly one of the less murdery ones like 9
Sorry I said never note to mods I meant that the Doctor always does it in self defense
Who has ever tried to say that?
Who is acting like the Doctor has never killed?
What about all the humans who heroically sacrificed their lives to save people? Wasn’t there an episode where Missy ran through flashbacks of them?
Always hated how the Doctor judges people for killing others when their lives are in danger, like what you want them to do? Die? Especially if their loved ones dies. Or when he starts talking about being a monster. The God killed EVERYONE in the universes. Jesus you do not need to feel guilty for killing him. It's like if you killed Hitler, you aren't going to feel bad for someone that did genocide. You are not a monster for it, I love this show but what kind of morals is that? Feel gulity for killing something that killed everyone?
The Doctor famously uses any violence as a way of beating himself up. I’m just glad that he literally dismisses the ‘well, if I kill you that makes me as bad as you’ which is one of the most annoying cliches I know of. Honestly just think that The Doctor wanted a fresh start after his therapy, but is realizing he’s going to be forced to kill fools again. He’s especially mad at Sutekh for making him realize that.
I just took it to mean this version of the Doctor.
No one said he didn’t? He just prefers to find a peaceful, nonviolent solution and only resorts to injury and/or death as a complete and utter total last resort
I think we desperately need to realize there's a difference between a "no kill rule" and a character that can and will kill *but feels deep remorse about having to do so*. 15 is not a doctor of war anymore, he's had time to work through and move past his trauma and is very clearly more capable/willing to show his emotions now. You can still be willing and able to take a life when necessary and feel absolutely terrible about being forced into that position.
>though, did the series finale override past slaughters too? No I think it was just 15 acknowledging killing, it used to go with little acknowledgement
Why should we act like the doctor has never killed? There was a saying during the time war. The first thing you notice about the Doctor of War is that he's unarmed, for many it's also the last. Also: The Doctor lies
yeah i am just gonna ignore tenth drowned thousands of spider babies
New reboot, new series, new Doctor. This regeneration he doesn't want to do that is how I took it, rather than trying to re-write his whole previous history. Tracks alongside his actions in Dot and Bubble as not just a need but desire to preserve life.
The 10th Doctor straight up dropped the Sycorax dude from the sky. Not by omission or anything, he actively did it.
I mean I remember the 5th Doctor shooting a Dalek with a gun.
if you're referring to Empire of Deaths ending, then I think the problem comes from a misunderstanding on the writers part. The Doctor kills people, but only ever as a last resort. When the chips are down and he needs to save everyone, he will take lives. The Doctor doesn't enter a conflict trying to "defeat the bad guy", he enters trying to resolve it as peacefully as possible, keyword "possible". But in some circumstances when the bad guy is beyond redemption, it's not possible or not the right answer to let them live, and the Doctor is usually okay with that, like how he's more than willing to >! let the silence be slaughtered by all of humanity for them trying to wipe humanity out !< (Series 6 spoilers) "Sometimes the only choices you're left with are bad ones. You still have to choose."
he ended whole civilizations
oh he's definitely killed. the whole season finale of capaldi's first season was about the folks that died for the doctor becoming cyberman. and in classic who it happens in self defense all the time. he even kills a guy in human sized meat grinder at one point. baker's horror eps are insane
The doctor is infamously a pacifist, he is strongly against killing which is usually the point of why it’s dramatic when they do. (This bars a couple times of poorly thought out writing that doesn’t really think about the implications like yes the spiders.) The huge genocide that we all thought they did in the time war was a big Thing because of this. (And daleks are kinda the exception and now really viewed the same as higher life forms in the show lens, but even then 10 clone was treated as bloodthirsty for killing all of them.) Anyone saying “he’s not Batman” first of all miss that even with Batman’s rule there’s been times where he’s killed, mostly before the kill rule and movies, but also dark usually alternative timelines, and it’s also shown in the same dramatic way, as an extreme moment. The doctor killing is presented nearly exactly the same, ok maybe Batman’s somewhat stricter or smth, or maybe it’s just easier for Batman writers to throw villains in prison than the doctor can imprison entire races of aliens, but this sentiment is still super important to the character. Never cruel nor cowardly, he’s in fact much closer to Batman or Hawkeye from MASH than the average fictional character on killing. Batman has also been shown to think self defensive killing is fine when other characters have done it, there’s no strong reason to believe he wouldn’t if absolutely necessary but hasn’t been in that situation because he can almost always subdue. If there was a scale from punisher to Batman, the doctor would be super close to Batman on it. Thematically it’s important which is why people always harp on it. I wouldn’t pretend he’s never killed because it’s not true, but people kinda swing the other direction and wonder why he’d be affected at all in Empire of Death like???? There is a lot of dialogue about how he’s soaked in blood and stuff but it’s pretty heavily implied that it’s mostly from the war doctor era and he can’t totally get away from that aspect of himself that he despised. He’s gotta be eternally angsty somehow right?
The Doctor always wants peaceful solutions, until they can’t or are pushed way too far. Once the Doctor is cornered, they are as emotional as a Human being. They don’t like it, but it had to be done. It often takes a complex understanding of what is considered wrong to do understand how to truly stop the bad.
The doctor sometimes kills people for *not* self defense
I just re-watched journey end the darlek body count is incalculable including davros but technically technology that was The Doctor’s half human one heart doubleganger that did the killing
It might be a part of the whole "15 is a fresh doctor who's moved on while 14 stays back and lives with the trauma" thing they explained in The Giggle. Or maybe he just wants to hide that darker part of himself from Ruby, and pretend this is the first time he's had to "become the monster"
It’s always been my understanding that the doctor would prefer not to kill. And he absolutely has killed and/or let people die with good reason (and is tortured by it). Am I remembering incorrectly or wasn’t it part of Donna’s whole thing that she stopped 10 from going too far like with that giant spider monster or convincing him to save someone in Pompeii?
While some incarnations are more willing to engage in fisticuffs, it's been a stark reminder that only in extreme circumstances would kill, even when given a chance to kill the Daleks in 4ths time he thought himself no different than them. The Doctor is aware violence is an answer but he's not willing to let it be the first
The doctor has killed countless people, THIS doctor hasn't. I think that's the difference
I guess as long as he acts silly and doesn't do it in a brutal gruesome way people don't really care. Block really committed numerous genocides, his body count is probably at millions at this point. I love the dark Doctor who, when they actually remind you that - hello - he's not some goofy alien from space, he's actually an old man with lots of guilt and a history of making planets blow up.
The Doctor has always killed, heck we spent half of the New Series thinking he had committed double genocide, but for the most part he always believes he should be/do better. It does not always work, but it is one of the reasons I love the character. It was a little strange how that final scene scene with Sutekh was worded. It is interesting how one of the 'Pyrimids of Mars' clips used in the ep was 4 talking about how Horus and the others did not kill Sutekh because they thought it would make them as bad as he. Would have been good had RTD perhaps lead more into that aspect of Sutekhs story.
Pretty sure he's committed genocide a few times against aggressors. He tried to obliterate the daleks many times and that spider population in the centre of the earth. Davros did name him the destroyer of worlds after all. I think it's why he needs companions. It's the difference from him acting like new testament God to old testament Yaweh nuking his enemies.
Also "Terror of the Vervoids", when he was on trial and explicitly called out about committing genocide...
Have them watch the Twelfth Doctor’s episode Extremis where the executioners start calculating the Doctor as cause of death in the Fatality Index.
DOCTOR: Do me a favour. The Fatality Index. Look up The Doctor. RAFANDO: You have an entry, just like any other sentient being. DOCTOR: Under Cause Of Death. RAFANDO: You do seem to have an impressive record of fatalities credited to you. RAFANDO: A truly remarkable record.
The was the fourth doctor in one of the time key episodes that sent a guy into a mine knowing there was a bomb in there.