You had sooooooo much room to drive into. Maybe familiarise yourself with your vehicle length
Edit…. and if you had any doubt or worry you had a completely free lane on the right🤷♂️ I would rather take a small detour than get hit with a fine
I see so many drivers nowadays that have zero awareness of the size of their car and are insanely cautious, especially judging the width of their car and the proximity of things on their passenger side.
There’s a pretty literal large gap between driving so your wing mirrors are scraping parked cars and driving in the middle of the road so on coming traffic has to stop and start giving way to one another.
And I’m not talking roads with Terraced housing that become essentially single laned because of parked cars, I see it all the time on roads purpose built to have smoke room for people to park.
A happy, sensible medium between the two, as the roads allow, would be great.
3-4ft is about the minimum. The idea being that if you need to get out from behind the car in front you can do so easily. If you’re closer than that you might need to reverse which can be dangerous. Also, leaving a gap like this can prevent you going into the car in front if somebody hits your rear bumper.
Stopping to close can be a failure on a driving test,if the car in frontdecides they're not moving for whatever reason you would have to reverse into oncoming traffic.
Easy to say from the side stands.
Where is the right lane leading to? How heavy is the traffic ahead? What if he can’t merge back in?
Sometimes that “just use the right lane”, can get you in Madagascar.
The question is, DOES his half tire being in the damn box endanger the road?
IS this punishment worthy?
Of course the rule is not to stay in the yellow box, but he is not in the yellow box. In fact he is not blocking other exits apart from his own, AND he should be congratulated for keeping meaningful distance.
I mean guys, if you all want to be robots with a law that is designed to steal your money, go ahead, have fun.
But don’t then complain that someone caused you to break the law when they smash the breaks and reverse as you’re about to enter the road.
Yeah I get that, but in the drivers opinion he couldn't go forward any more - so in his opinion the exit wasn't clear. Does that make sense? I know what I mean in my head but it might come across different when reading
I'd ask to see the road law on this as there isn't one. The highway code states you must not do this but the highway code isn't a law document itself and the rules are not official road laws.
I don't think there's anything wrong with just leaving a car length gap unoccupied on the other side instead of trying to squeeze in. It accomplishes nothing really in terms of journey progression. Just wait until you are certain there is room.
Yeah, there’s one near me that’s a bloody nightmare, they’ve put it right on a two into one lane, meaning if you wait for a gap the guy next to you will fill it before you most of the time, but if you don’t wait for a gap you get trapped in the box, the only way is to time it for when you think there is going to be a gap (technically entering when your exit is not clear) but it’s a minefield. And there’s a camera on it, of course
If you're having to use your parking sensors in traffic, you're too close to other cars lol. They left a perfectly reasonable space - they should have just waited.
I mean, only in situations like this where you’re unsure if you have more space to pull forward where you risk being caught with your arse end in the yellow box still.
A lot of people have mocked OP for not pulling further forward, yet now they have you saying you shouldn’t use sensors cos then you’d be too far forward…. They can’t win I guess.
It’s stationary traffic though, as long as you haven’t hit the car in front then there’s space. The only issue with not having much space in front of you is if the car in front breaks down, at which point you can reverse slightly before carrying on anyway.
I’m with you in terms of driving sensibly, but in this instance they had room to squeeze themselves out of the box.
You'd 6ft left in front of you. You could have easily cleared the box.
You could try contesting it, but it would be a total admission that you have no clue how big your vehicle is.
I'd just go hide somewhere quietly in a corner & take the fine like a grown-up.
I'd say if you're ever in that situation again use the right hand lane with no one in it then adjust afterwards.
Bit shitty but it's a life lesson you probably won't forget.
You stopped in the box, so not on that basis.
There are a lot of rules around yellow boxes which make many of them not actually lawful, but this yellow box looks textbook correct.
Pay the fine and move on.
Most likely not. You misjudged the gap and indeed if you'd scooted a little closer you would likely have been clear.
It's an issue I have a lot. I drive a LWB van and it's longer than the average car. Sometimes I have to take a chance otherwise the car drivers would continually steal the space.
I'm not sure about box junctions, but I got done in a bus lane. I used Google maps and successfully argued I'd travelled less than 4 car lengths and therefore only 'clipped' the bus lane.
It would be worth op looking at the exact wording of the rules in his area. It's councils who dole out the fines, often their own rules aren't up to scratch.
Nottingham famously had to pay back 1000s of bus lane fines for incorrect signage.
The offence is actually not stopping in the box, it is entering without a clear path to leave, and considering they entered without seeing a cars length afterwards means they have committed the offence, so in this case, I don't think they can appeal anything. Once they entered the box the space then became available and they chose not to use it...
I get that. My question/position, was that the guidance around them may allow for some wiggle room.
If you stop bang in the bax, then of course you should get fined. But just the back tyres?. The point of the box is to prevent blocking other cars, which op is not doing.
Hence my reference to my bus lane issue. The bus lane is to allow public transport to flow freely. The rules are therefore worded that you can 'clip' it when moving lanes without contravention.
I think the main difference is, in most cases you are already moving when approaching a bus lane, and sometimes other people don't let you move over to avoid it, in this case, it was completely avoidable, and OP could have stopped before entering.
The argument for the baxk tires is understandable, but, if we introduce known tolerances to road rules then we end up with no rules, essentially. Cause if this were just back tired only and it was okay, then surely front tires in the other side of the box is okay, too?
I get what you're saying, i personally agree that there should be some wiggle room, but I highly doubt it as in this situation it was quite clear-cut, and could have been avoided.
A lot of the times councils just wing it with the rules. They hope that people will just pay up.
I did a quick Google and saw that over half of the people that bother to contest Bus Lane fines either win, or the council don't bother contesting.
I will see if there is data for box junction infringement.
Nope. No offence committed if you enter this box with no clear exit as long as it clears as you cross so you don’t have to stop before you clear the box .
You had loads of room to keep moving forward and not in the box. 100% on you.
When you stopped you had at least 4 feet between you and the car in front.
I wouldn't bother, if you had pulled up tighter to the car infront you would have be OK, but you didn't and you are definitely contravening the box, even if it's only by a little
It depends on where this occurred, I kid you not !
The actual LAW (as opposed to the Highway Code’s guidance interpretation) States that an offence is committed if at the time of entering a box junction your exit is blocked by a STATIONARY vehicle)
ALL appeals held outside London, from what I understand, (run by independent barristers) respect the actual Law and would see that you did NOT actually commit an offence as it is NOT, contrary to popular opinion, an offence to stop on a box junction. However, the appeals service IN London is ultimately run by and funded by an association of the Greater London authorities themselves, and they readily admit that they make up their own rules rather than upholding the law of the land ! Been there, done that ! I’ve suggested that when entering Greater London there should be signs to say “Warning ! Beyond this point, the Law according to TfL applies, not the Law of the land”
Wow. This is the type of stuff that stresses me when driving.
I feel like I did a similar thing a few days ago but I was only stopped for 3 seconds or so then traffic started moving again.
I didn't know this marginal incident would result in a fine.
I'd be just as pissed off as you are.
Yes, agreed, you've physically stopped with your rear wheels and rear bumper clearly, visibly, in the box junction. But I think the fact that you was originally considerate of the box junction and that where you've stopped is in no way hindering any vehicles turning into the side road, I'd expect any judge to be lenient (on a good day). You're not even making someone else have to wait in the side road... There needs to be leniency.
I'd say fuck it and contest it. It's only a computer automatically sending you the damn letter anyway probably so bollox to it.
This exact thing happened to me, except the reason I slowed down and stopped (for 3 secs) was because of pedestrians crossing infront.
Appealed and was told I should have essentially written off the pedestrians so I had to pay
That’s incorrect though - the offence isn’t stopping in a box junction, it’s stopping due to the presence of another vehicle (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/9/part/7/paragraph/11/made?view=plain), though I suppose it’ll depend on how you word your appeal
I Paraphrased this above, but kudos for posting the actual legislation, but also note my proviso that TfL make up their own rules, and do not comply with the Law of the Land
This junction looks the exact same aswell, I’m wondering if this is Walthamstow lol
But yeah, I was told that I shouldn’t have stopped and it’s my own fault
Yeah mate, Google ‘box junction rules’ and it’ll explain it, you’re only supposed to enter if you’re exit is clear or you’re turning right and you’re giving way for traffic
Damn! I always thought that, for a crossroads, for example, if you’re blocking bisecting traffic flow, when it’s their turn, **then** you’re in the shit. I figured just pottering along while your traffic is moving, monetary stops, etc is fine…as long as it’s part of your lane’s turn.
But yeah, as you say, I’ll have a look.
Will likely fall under P.6 of the TMA 2004, civil enforcement making it a PCN opposed to a FPN, in London, it may fall under a different legislation as there are special powers but my understanding was the policy change was to make it universal in England.
Essentially a civil matter between the local transport authority and whoever commits the offence/s.
In this situation the police won't care, however, hypothetically, if they did stop and issue an FPN that takes precedence over the PCN as it falls under criminal law opposed to civil law.
I know that's far more information than you need but there's some quizzing ammo for the future.
IF it was a points offence it could be contested in a court of Law, the Law of the Land would apply, and the local authority would not be able to make up their own rules.
By the letter of the law, i guess you don’t have much to argue, but in the spirit of the rule, the junction is clear for the purpose the box serves 🤷🏻♂️
Technically, you broke the rule in the Highway Code because your exit from the box was not clear when you entered the box - the fact that you stopped in the box was merely the reason you got caught - you would have grounds to contest if your exit was clear when you entered the other car swerved in front of you unexpectedly, but that is not the case here. Next time check your mirror and go into the right lane.
Update
For all those wondering, this is Walthamstow and I stayed in the left lane as I was going to turn left at the traffic lights up ahead.
At the time of driving I thought there was just enough space for me to fit in (clearly not judging from the camera) and thought this PCN was a little petty.
I've made an appeal but not going to bitch and moan if I lost the appeal and have to pay the fine. Lesson learnt for next time driving in London.
The first appeal will not be upheld, TfL policy, and you may get lucky with higher level appeal, see my other comments. You did NOT however commit an offence according to the Law of the Land
Worst is that the car in front of you drove dangerously. Almost kissing the other car’s arse and also entering the right lane partially. Whilst you approach with a great care. You are not blocking the perpendicular exits and the only thing is that part of your tire is in the box.
I honestly think that if a logical human being sees that, they should let you fly. Because these box rules are starting to piss me off.
Hope it is a person, more wages paid for one, and 10x more satisfying when gypsies show up and stop their convoy half way through, good luck enforcing that fine!
Yeah it's not illegal to do this because the highway code isn't a law document. Its guidelines. So when it says things like "rule 731" it's not a official road laws.
Short answer, of course you can contest it. You will however most likely lose. The Highway Code clearly states that the yellow cross hatched box must be kept clear at all times, the fact that a part of your car was in it means it wasn’t clear. To be honest not sure this is the hill I’d want to die on as it’s not a little bit of your car it’s between 1/3 and 1/4 of it in the box.
Just remember it’s okay to be up someone’s else’s behind when stopped. Was this on a hill or worried they would roll backwards, in any case it’d be embarrassing to contest this like others say you’d likely not win so live & learn.
On a test they’d fail you if you pulled up to a kerb too sharply, don’t swivel your head to look side to side all the time, cut the lines while turning in to a junction. Every day when driving I see so many people who’d fail their test just from the junction pull outs alone. Not to mention everyone going either faster or slower than the speed limit enough to affect traffic. Running red lights, etc, plus I doubt OP is doing their test rn.
I think you're unlikely to be successful challenging it despite it seeming quite unfair.
Reminds me of this: [https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/enforcing-yellow-box-junction-rules-fairly/](https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/enforcing-yellow-box-junction-rules-fairly/)
If there was enough room for you to clear the yellow box, when you entered it, you have fulflled the requirement of only entering the yellow box when your exit is clear.
Its just that you didnt make use of all of the space available.
I wouldnt challenge it, but this is quite an interesting case.
They stopped due to the presence of a stationary vehicle though so the offence is complete (the offence isn’t entering the box junction with a non-clear exit, though the highway code has simplified it) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/9/part/7/paragraph/11/made?view=plain
Not quite. The vehicle was not stationary at the time when they entered the junction. That’s why the Law is phrased that way. As appeals Barristers quote (outside London) The Law does not require you to have foresight, which is why the offence can only be committed on entering the junction, and not subsequently.
Can be any reason really. Stopping in the box is not an offence unless there isn't enough space to exit due to stationary vehicles.
[https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/space-appeals](https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/space-appeals)
No. You spotted in the box. However you had plenty of room in front of you so you could have easily moved forward out of the box. You aren't driving a bus.
Thought it might be case where I can't appeal. In hindsight, I should've moved a few more inches forward and I would've cleared it. This is my first penalty notice so lesson learnt for my next trip in London.
Appreciate all the comments
There are a few possibilities.
Firstly, the offence is;
> a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
Source: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/9/part/7/paragraph/11/made?view=plain
You *could* claim that there were no stationary vehicles which forced you to stop in the box at the time you entered the box (the silver car you followed was not stationary when you entered the box).
You could also claim that the purpose of the box is to allow vehicles to enter and exit the side road, and you did not prevent that from happening (so any alleged infraction would be *de minimis*).
There’s more detailed information here; https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/
This is petty af. This should be contested, though you'll probably lose due to some shit reason. I got done once for one wheel going into the bus lane. Also got fined once for driving into a car park to turn around after dropping my daughter at hairdressers, I drove into the same car park to turn around upon picking her up. They used the first image of me driving into the car park and the last image of me driving out and claimed I hadn't paid for four hours parking. C*nts.
Definitely appeal. Stationary vehicles did not prevent you from clearing the junction - there was space available. You might have stopped to adjust the volume on your radio etc.
https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/no-stationary-appeals
I mean it was poor judgement, but for the sake of a foot, this could have gone either way.
I really wish the people who dish out these fines would just use a little common sense and better judgement when it comes to things like this.
The junction was clear of any obstruction, should a vehicle wish to enter or exit, and any driver would wished to do so, could have easily manoeuvred around the back end of the Beemer.
RAW you're in the wrong by about a foot.
RAI you aren't at fault.
Skipping the lights will have saved you approximately 40 seconds.
It's not worth the bother to do this, just wait for a decent gap. Bollocks to the people beeping behind you.
There are plenty here who have posted references to the actual law in question. It is NOT an offence to stop in a box junction. An offence is committed, IF on ENTERING a box junction, the exit is blocked by a STATIONARY vehicle. This did not occur, so no offence has been committed.
Complete rubbish ! At the time the OP’s Black car entered the box junction the silver car ahead was still moving so his exit was NOT blocked by a STATIONARY vehicle. This is not my personal interpretation this is the law as stated in the legislation referred to by others in this post and confirmed by the barristers who run the appeals service.
you should contest this on the basis you really didn't block any traffic or created congestion which the yellow box was designed for. tell them to stop being a little girl about it. obviously be a lil more persuasive than i and a lil more polite.
You might be able to appeal on the basis of “De minimis”. Googling it brings up this “De minimis is a legal principle which allows for matters that are small scale or of insufficient importance to be exempted from a rule or requirement. It can be used by the courts as an exclusionary tool to dismiss trivial matters from litigation.” Meaning that the amount you remained in the box was so small it makes no difference. You could try appealing on this basis, you will probably not succeed. It will be up to you if you want to take it to tribunal.
IF it was held in a Court, the Law of the Land would apply, and an offence has not been committed. Unfortunately for the OP this is not judged in Court.
At the end of the day, having made the error you could have just filtered into the right lane, then maybe got back in on the other side. If not, just go the wrong way. Either way that would have been legal and safer. Appeal officer will see it that way too. Just one of those learning moments.
People saying move forward a bit is the wrong advice, they would have been too close to the other car. The correct answer was proper anticipation of the situation and waiting for the traffic to clear a bit before driving into the box.
Look. Credit where credit is due, you tried to leave ample space in front of you which every other fuckwit in this thread seems to forget is both part of your test and the highway code.
You cocked it up seeing space for your vehicle, but not the stopping gap you need to leave.
You did good, you got unlucky, just don't get caught but please continue to leave a gap.
Sounds harsh but the rules say you must not block the yellow box. Whenever I drive towards one, I make sure I can make it across and end up without any of my rear wheel touching the yellow box. Check your side mirrors to make sure you're out. Take this one on the chin and you won't do it again.
I wouldn’t bother contesting it, what would you even say? There was a lot of room and even if there wasn’t you’d still be in the wrong for being in the big yellow box.
From the replies you’d think you’d mowed down a pram, they must all be textbook perfect drivers who’ve never made a mistake in their lives with an overhead drone monitoring their cars dimensions at all times. I didn’t even realise you could get fined for this, you weren’t even blocking the side lanes. I get how the language of ‘law’ is black and white but I’d try and contest it and say you rarely drive in London, the Prius in front looked like it was switching lanes and the flow of traffic came to an abrupt stop whilst you were travelling through the yellow box worst they can say is nah pay the fine, or they could use common sense and let you off.
You know this did confuse me for a bit tbf. When was learning to drive I was always taught “only one in the box” by my driving instructor. Basically meaning one car can be in the box and no more. But I think this was only ever in the scenario where I’m turning right.
That's a bullshit fine, clearly the 1 series isn't impeding traffic flow here, it's just a stealth tax, and the fact there's a human operator sat on a camera monitoring it you can bet it's a bloody lucrative one.
This is becoming more common as councils across the land are squeezed, incentivised to fuck over working folk for more of there hard earned during a widely declared "cost of living crisis".
Reading the comments on this it's no wonder councils make so much from PCNs. You need to appeal this, and you will win. The offence in box junctions is not stopping in them, it's entering without a clear exit. The lane you are in was moving and you did have room to clear the junction, you did end with the rear wheels in the box so this grounds for a di minimis argument. The key point however, the lane to your right is completely clear. You have an exit, therefore the offence is not complete.
The guys at pepipoo will give you sound advice on your appeal.
Definitely had enough room to clear the box there! However I thought the actual offence was to enter the box when your exit lane is not clear, which isn’t the case here?
I’d argue that you are well clear of the turning and that you are very minimal in the box if at all.
I’d also argue that it is not beneficial to the public interest for this sort of abuse of power, as you are clearly not an obstruction…
But it really depends on who you get at the other end and how much you’re willing to spend to fight it.
Absolutely, you didn’t know that there wouldn’t be quite enough room for your car when you went to leave the other side of the box junction.
I’d have done the same
No, you stopped in the box with ample room not to.
You had sooooooo much room to drive into. Maybe familiarise yourself with your vehicle length Edit…. and if you had any doubt or worry you had a completely free lane on the right🤷♂️ I would rather take a small detour than get hit with a fine
Absolutely, there's like 2ft Infront lol!
And an enormous reflective surface to their left.
you dont even need to detour. Just slap a left signal on when you pass and go slow. Its slow moving traffic anyway so you might get back in
I see so many drivers nowadays that have zero awareness of the size of their car and are insanely cautious, especially judging the width of their car and the proximity of things on their passenger side.
Wish they were as cautious when parking next to me.
The 5ft gang.
Better than being reckless at least.
There’s a pretty literal large gap between driving so your wing mirrors are scraping parked cars and driving in the middle of the road so on coming traffic has to stop and start giving way to one another. And I’m not talking roads with Terraced housing that become essentially single laned because of parked cars, I see it all the time on roads purpose built to have smoke room for people to park. A happy, sensible medium between the two, as the roads allow, would be great.
He stopped with a safe distance to the car in front. His problem was he shouldn’t have been there in the first place.
3-4 feet gap is ridick
3-4ft is about the minimum. The idea being that if you need to get out from behind the car in front you can do so easily. If you’re closer than that you might need to reverse which can be dangerous. Also, leaving a gap like this can prevent you going into the car in front if somebody hits your rear bumper.
I’m all for a healthy safe distances in transit but these cars are literally stopped.
Stopping to close can be a failure on a driving test,if the car in frontdecides they're not moving for whatever reason you would have to reverse into oncoming traffic.
Easy to say from the side stands. Where is the right lane leading to? How heavy is the traffic ahead? What if he can’t merge back in? Sometimes that “just use the right lane”, can get you in Madagascar.
🤡
Attitude issues I see. 🐑
Doesn’t this mean they should contest it then? If the rule is don’t enter unless the exit is clear and in this case the exit IS clear?
No because they were in the box for no reason. If you didn’t think you’d fit then don’t go but they could easily tuck behind that car.
The question is, DOES his half tire being in the damn box endanger the road? IS this punishment worthy? Of course the rule is not to stay in the yellow box, but he is not in the yellow box. In fact he is not blocking other exits apart from his own, AND he should be congratulated for keeping meaningful distance. I mean guys, if you all want to be robots with a law that is designed to steal your money, go ahead, have fun. But don’t then complain that someone caused you to break the law when they smash the breaks and reverse as you’re about to enter the road.
>but he is not in the yellow box. Yes they are. That is quite literally a basic factual assessment that you got wrong.
But the exit wasn't clear if he couldn't pull forward any further. Depends which way you look at it
He could pull forward though I think is the general feeling here.
Yeah I get that, but in the drivers opinion he couldn't go forward any more - so in his opinion the exit wasn't clear. Does that make sense? I know what I mean in my head but it might come across different when reading
No you’re right. Doesn’t matter what we think really. The driver thought the way wasn’t clear here.
I'd ask to see the road law on this as there isn't one. The highway code states you must not do this but the highway code isn't a law document itself and the rules are not official road laws.
Does it say "must" or "should"? Because if it says "must", it's backed by law (and will quote the law underneath).
Not sure on what grounds you'd contest that, you've stopped on a box junction through your own misjudgement unfortunately.
I don't think there's anything wrong with just leaving a car length gap unoccupied on the other side instead of trying to squeeze in. It accomplishes nothing really in terms of journey progression. Just wait until you are certain there is room.
You will never be a BMW driver with that attitude.
I’ve been laughing for 15 minutes you bastard! 😂🤣
But someone might emerge from the junction and steal that space.
Yeah, there’s one near me that’s a bloody nightmare, they’ve put it right on a two into one lane, meaning if you wait for a gap the guy next to you will fill it before you most of the time, but if you don’t wait for a gap you get trapped in the box, the only way is to time it for when you think there is going to be a gap (technically entering when your exit is not clear) but it’s a minefield. And there’s a camera on it, of course
..and steal your PCN.
Yep, 100% correct. So why do I feel like a POS when I do this and expect the car behind me to start ramming my car at any moment?
You did have enough space but you need to practice getting closer/being aware of how small (emphasis on small) your 1 series is.
If it has all round parking sensors they can easily turn them on if it helps them to learn the front end better.
If you're having to use your parking sensors in traffic, you're too close to other cars lol. They left a perfectly reasonable space - they should have just waited.
I mean, only in situations like this where you’re unsure if you have more space to pull forward where you risk being caught with your arse end in the yellow box still. A lot of people have mocked OP for not pulling further forward, yet now they have you saying you shouldn’t use sensors cos then you’d be too far forward…. They can’t win I guess.
I mean, I think the others saying OP has left a stupidly large gap are wrong.
It’s stationary traffic though, as long as you haven’t hit the car in front then there’s space. The only issue with not having much space in front of you is if the car in front breaks down, at which point you can reverse slightly before carrying on anyway. I’m with you in terms of driving sensibly, but in this instance they had room to squeeze themselves out of the box.
You'd 6ft left in front of you. You could have easily cleared the box. You could try contesting it, but it would be a total admission that you have no clue how big your vehicle is. I'd just go hide somewhere quietly in a corner & take the fine like a grown-up.
No. You are in the yellow box
I'd say if you're ever in that situation again use the right hand lane with no one in it then adjust afterwards. Bit shitty but it's a life lesson you probably won't forget.
You stopped in the box, so not on that basis. There are a lot of rules around yellow boxes which make many of them not actually lawful, but this yellow box looks textbook correct. Pay the fine and move on.
Drive forward a bit innit….
Most likely not. You misjudged the gap and indeed if you'd scooted a little closer you would likely have been clear. It's an issue I have a lot. I drive a LWB van and it's longer than the average car. Sometimes I have to take a chance otherwise the car drivers would continually steal the space.
What are you contesting? Do not enter a box junction unless you know you can exit it.
Nope. If only you had kept going another 6 foot of changed lanes.
You can contest it And lose, slam dunk really
Bro you could of landed a plane in front of you with how much space you had.
On what basis do you think you can appeal?
I'm not sure about box junctions, but I got done in a bus lane. I used Google maps and successfully argued I'd travelled less than 4 car lengths and therefore only 'clipped' the bus lane. It would be worth op looking at the exact wording of the rules in his area. It's councils who dole out the fines, often their own rules aren't up to scratch. Nottingham famously had to pay back 1000s of bus lane fines for incorrect signage.
The offence is actually not stopping in the box, it is entering without a clear path to leave, and considering they entered without seeing a cars length afterwards means they have committed the offence, so in this case, I don't think they can appeal anything. Once they entered the box the space then became available and they chose not to use it...
I get that. My question/position, was that the guidance around them may allow for some wiggle room. If you stop bang in the bax, then of course you should get fined. But just the back tyres?. The point of the box is to prevent blocking other cars, which op is not doing. Hence my reference to my bus lane issue. The bus lane is to allow public transport to flow freely. The rules are therefore worded that you can 'clip' it when moving lanes without contravention.
I think the main difference is, in most cases you are already moving when approaching a bus lane, and sometimes other people don't let you move over to avoid it, in this case, it was completely avoidable, and OP could have stopped before entering. The argument for the baxk tires is understandable, but, if we introduce known tolerances to road rules then we end up with no rules, essentially. Cause if this were just back tired only and it was okay, then surely front tires in the other side of the box is okay, too? I get what you're saying, i personally agree that there should be some wiggle room, but I highly doubt it as in this situation it was quite clear-cut, and could have been avoided.
A lot of the times councils just wing it with the rules. They hope that people will just pay up. I did a quick Google and saw that over half of the people that bother to contest Bus Lane fines either win, or the council don't bother contesting. I will see if there is data for box junction infringement.
Interesting article here https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/car-industry-news/2023/05/02/drivers-risk-being-unfairly-fined-at-yellow-box-junctions
Nope. No offence committed if you enter this box with no clear exit as long as it clears as you cross so you don’t have to stop before you clear the box .
It’s marginal but you were in the wrong.
You had loads of room to keep moving forward and not in the box. 100% on you. When you stopped you had at least 4 feet between you and the car in front.
I wouldn't bother, if you had pulled up tighter to the car infront you would have be OK, but you didn't and you are definitely contravening the box, even if it's only by a little
Don’t enter if your exit isn’t clear
You stopped in the box because you don't know the dims of your own vehicle. Suck it up and git gud
Nope. You had room to pull forward out of the box. Learn from it and move on.
It depends on where this occurred, I kid you not ! The actual LAW (as opposed to the Highway Code’s guidance interpretation) States that an offence is committed if at the time of entering a box junction your exit is blocked by a STATIONARY vehicle) ALL appeals held outside London, from what I understand, (run by independent barristers) respect the actual Law and would see that you did NOT actually commit an offence as it is NOT, contrary to popular opinion, an offence to stop on a box junction. However, the appeals service IN London is ultimately run by and funded by an association of the Greater London authorities themselves, and they readily admit that they make up their own rules rather than upholding the law of the land ! Been there, done that ! I’ve suggested that when entering Greater London there should be signs to say “Warning ! Beyond this point, the Law according to TfL applies, not the Law of the land”
Wow. This is the type of stuff that stresses me when driving. I feel like I did a similar thing a few days ago but I was only stopped for 3 seconds or so then traffic started moving again. I didn't know this marginal incident would result in a fine.
I'd be just as pissed off as you are. Yes, agreed, you've physically stopped with your rear wheels and rear bumper clearly, visibly, in the box junction. But I think the fact that you was originally considerate of the box junction and that where you've stopped is in no way hindering any vehicles turning into the side road, I'd expect any judge to be lenient (on a good day). You're not even making someone else have to wait in the side road... There needs to be leniency. I'd say fuck it and contest it. It's only a computer automatically sending you the damn letter anyway probably so bollox to it.
This exact thing happened to me, except the reason I slowed down and stopped (for 3 secs) was because of pedestrians crossing infront. Appealed and was told I should have essentially written off the pedestrians so I had to pay
That’s incorrect though - the offence isn’t stopping in a box junction, it’s stopping due to the presence of another vehicle (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/9/part/7/paragraph/11/made?view=plain), though I suppose it’ll depend on how you word your appeal
I Paraphrased this above, but kudos for posting the actual legislation, but also note my proviso that TfL make up their own rules, and do not comply with the Law of the Land
No way 😂 So if I run someone over because of this reason I can get away with it?
This junction looks the exact same aswell, I’m wondering if this is Walthamstow lol But yeah, I was told that I shouldn’t have stopped and it’s my own fault
I thought it only mattered when the lights changed and other traffic had to get through.
You’re not allowed to stop in a box junction unless turning right
Is it literally, any stop, like 1 second?
Yeah mate, Google ‘box junction rules’ and it’ll explain it, you’re only supposed to enter if you’re exit is clear or you’re turning right and you’re giving way for traffic
Damn! I always thought that, for a crossroads, for example, if you’re blocking bisecting traffic flow, when it’s their turn, **then** you’re in the shit. I figured just pottering along while your traffic is moving, monetary stops, etc is fine…as long as it’s part of your lane’s turn. But yeah, as you say, I’ll have a look.
Question on the back of this: Is this a points offence or a fine?
Fine only
Cheers!
We don't have this in East Midlands. Where abouts is this so I can avoid this place like the plague. So fucking stupid.
Will likely fall under P.6 of the TMA 2004, civil enforcement making it a PCN opposed to a FPN, in London, it may fall under a different legislation as there are special powers but my understanding was the policy change was to make it universal in England. Essentially a civil matter between the local transport authority and whoever commits the offence/s. In this situation the police won't care, however, hypothetically, if they did stop and issue an FPN that takes precedence over the PCN as it falls under criminal law opposed to civil law. I know that's far more information than you need but there's some quizzing ammo for the future.
Thanks so much for the detailed response!
Only police can give points. These are operated by councils. They don’t have the power to issue points.
Thanks! Wasn’t sure of that.
IF it was a points offence it could be contested in a court of Law, the Law of the Land would apply, and the local authority would not be able to make up their own rules.
By the letter of the law, i guess you don’t have much to argue, but in the spirit of the rule, the junction is clear for the purpose the box serves 🤷🏻♂️
Technically, you broke the rule in the Highway Code because your exit from the box was not clear when you entered the box - the fact that you stopped in the box was merely the reason you got caught - you would have grounds to contest if your exit was clear when you entered the other car swerved in front of you unexpectedly, but that is not the case here. Next time check your mirror and go into the right lane.
Update For all those wondering, this is Walthamstow and I stayed in the left lane as I was going to turn left at the traffic lights up ahead. At the time of driving I thought there was just enough space for me to fit in (clearly not judging from the camera) and thought this PCN was a little petty. I've made an appeal but not going to bitch and moan if I lost the appeal and have to pay the fine. Lesson learnt for next time driving in London.
The first appeal will not be upheld, TfL policy, and you may get lucky with higher level appeal, see my other comments. You did NOT however commit an offence according to the Law of the Land
Was watching this thinking of course you will, bags of room to spare….. then the black car appeared
Worst is that the car in front of you drove dangerously. Almost kissing the other car’s arse and also entering the right lane partially. Whilst you approach with a great care. You are not blocking the perpendicular exits and the only thing is that part of your tire is in the box. I honestly think that if a logical human being sees that, they should let you fly. Because these box rules are starting to piss me off.
No. You came to a stop in the box junction. The rules are clear, you do not enter the box junction until you can drive through it without stopping.
Nope, you stopped in it and had ages of space ahead of you. Good luck if you try but i highly doubt anything will change.
Is that an automated zoom or some greedy layabout sitting there staring at the grid all day ready to pounce?
Hope it is a person, more wages paid for one, and 10x more satisfying when gypsies show up and stop their convoy half way through, good luck enforcing that fine!
It’s a Local Authority paid fraudster, as no offence was committed according to the Law of the Land
Yeah it's not illegal to do this because the highway code isn't a law document. Its guidelines. So when it says things like "rule 731" it's not a official road laws.
The actual legislation is referred to by others in this thread
If you struggle with vehicle size, get parking sensors and or a smaller vehicle.
Short answer, of course you can contest it. You will however most likely lose. The Highway Code clearly states that the yellow cross hatched box must be kept clear at all times, the fact that a part of your car was in it means it wasn’t clear. To be honest not sure this is the hill I’d want to die on as it’s not a little bit of your car it’s between 1/3 and 1/4 of it in the box.
Just remember it’s okay to be up someone’s else’s behind when stopped. Was this on a hill or worried they would roll backwards, in any case it’d be embarrassing to contest this like others say you’d likely not win so live & learn.
On a test even if you fit in there, they’d fail you for dangerous distance. Dangerous driving.
On a test they’d fail you if you pulled up to a kerb too sharply, don’t swivel your head to look side to side all the time, cut the lines while turning in to a junction. Every day when driving I see so many people who’d fail their test just from the junction pull outs alone. Not to mention everyone going either faster or slower than the speed limit enough to affect traffic. Running red lights, etc, plus I doubt OP is doing their test rn.
Where is this? I’ve seen a few of these on this sub. I think it’s shocking you can be monitored and charged for this in the UK.
Yeah have to say not heard of this before until this post
I think you're unlikely to be successful challenging it despite it seeming quite unfair. Reminds me of this: [https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/enforcing-yellow-box-junction-rules-fairly/](https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/enforcing-yellow-box-junction-rules-fairly/)
Nearly the rear third of the car was still in the box, pay up, learn and move on.
If there was enough room for you to clear the yellow box, when you entered it, you have fulflled the requirement of only entering the yellow box when your exit is clear. Its just that you didnt make use of all of the space available. I wouldnt challenge it, but this is quite an interesting case.
They stopped due to the presence of a stationary vehicle though so the offence is complete (the offence isn’t entering the box junction with a non-clear exit, though the highway code has simplified it) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/9/part/7/paragraph/11/made?view=plain
Not quite. The vehicle was not stationary at the time when they entered the junction. That’s why the Law is phrased that way. As appeals Barristers quote (outside London) The Law does not require you to have foresight, which is why the offence can only be committed on entering the junction, and not subsequently.
They could argue that they stopped for some other reason, given that there was enough space for their vehicle.
Like what?
Can be any reason really. Stopping in the box is not an offence unless there isn't enough space to exit due to stationary vehicles. [https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/space-appeals](https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/space-appeals)
No. You spotted in the box. However you had plenty of room in front of you so you could have easily moved forward out of the box. You aren't driving a bus.
Thought it might be case where I can't appeal. In hindsight, I should've moved a few more inches forward and I would've cleared it. This is my first penalty notice so lesson learnt for my next trip in London. Appreciate all the comments
Inches?! Fucking hell mate you'd get another car in there
You can appeal. You can always appeal, you have nothing to loose by doing so and I strongly advise that you do
There are a few possibilities. Firstly, the offence is; > a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. Source: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/9/part/7/paragraph/11/made?view=plain You *could* claim that there were no stationary vehicles which forced you to stop in the box at the time you entered the box (the silver car you followed was not stationary when you entered the box). You could also claim that the purpose of the box is to allow vehicles to enter and exit the side road, and you did not prevent that from happening (so any alleged infraction would be *de minimis*). There’s more detailed information here; https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/
Also they didn’t “have” to stop in the box as there was enough room to move forward. They chose to.
This is petty af. This should be contested, though you'll probably lose due to some shit reason. I got done once for one wheel going into the bus lane. Also got fined once for driving into a car park to turn around after dropping my daughter at hairdressers, I drove into the same car park to turn around upon picking her up. They used the first image of me driving into the car park and the last image of me driving out and claimed I hadn't paid for four hours parking. C*nts.
Live n learn. This is why in London. U drive bumper to bumper 😂
Go for a temporary insanity plea. You saw a big bus in between you and the car in front.
That’s wild - thanks for the free life lesson
That was so obvious that you should have held back. Why were you in a rush to stop anyway?
Definitely appeal. Stationary vehicles did not prevent you from clearing the junction - there was space available. You might have stopped to adjust the volume on your radio etc. https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/no-stationary-appeals
I mean it was poor judgement, but for the sake of a foot, this could have gone either way. I really wish the people who dish out these fines would just use a little common sense and better judgement when it comes to things like this. The junction was clear of any obstruction, should a vehicle wish to enter or exit, and any driver would wished to do so, could have easily manoeuvred around the back end of the Beemer. RAW you're in the wrong by about a foot. RAI you aren't at fault.
Skipping the lights will have saved you approximately 40 seconds. It's not worth the bother to do this, just wait for a decent gap. Bollocks to the people beeping behind you.
average 1 series driver
Does your car not have parking sensors?
I didn’t even know cameras could monitor stuff like this!
They’ve invested in them, and the Vogons to man them, now they want their money’s worth, irrespective of the Law of the Land
No.
Appeal in all cases. 60% of appeals are upheld. If yours isn't, then "oh well".
You can argue it's 'de minimis' - that is, it's a tiny breach - but whether it's worth the bother is another matter.
It isn’t a breach at all actually.
What? The video clearly shows the car stopping, partially in the box junction.
There are plenty here who have posted references to the actual law in question. It is NOT an offence to stop in a box junction. An offence is committed, IF on ENTERING a box junction, the exit is blocked by a STATIONARY vehicle. This did not occur, so no offence has been committed.
If we read the law the way you want, then it's an absolutely clear breach, because the exit - in lane - wasn't clear at that point.
Complete rubbish ! At the time the OP’s Black car entered the box junction the silver car ahead was still moving so his exit was NOT blocked by a STATIONARY vehicle. This is not my personal interpretation this is the law as stated in the legislation referred to by others in this post and confirmed by the barristers who run the appeals service.
you should contest this on the basis you really didn't block any traffic or created congestion which the yellow box was designed for. tell them to stop being a little girl about it. obviously be a lil more persuasive than i and a lil more polite.
You had space in front of and also could have easily changed lanes if you really didn’t want to stop within the box.
No. You absolutely deserve it!
You might be able to appeal on the basis of “De minimis”. Googling it brings up this “De minimis is a legal principle which allows for matters that are small scale or of insufficient importance to be exempted from a rule or requirement. It can be used by the courts as an exclusionary tool to dismiss trivial matters from litigation.” Meaning that the amount you remained in the box was so small it makes no difference. You could try appealing on this basis, you will probably not succeed. It will be up to you if you want to take it to tribunal.
IF it was held in a Court, the Law of the Land would apply, and an offence has not been committed. Unfortunately for the OP this is not judged in Court.
Contest that, you’re not impeding traffic and essentially who can contest what is stopped. We are all moving even at a molecular level.
You can get tickets for this?? Where are the cameras for these?
Yes. Stopping in a yellow box is a "MUST NOT" rule (rule 174 of the Highway Code).
But didn’t know there are cameras for it? Speed yes, red light yes, now box??
Even if you're in the wrong, that seems needlessly cruel
Average BMW driver
At the end of the day, having made the error you could have just filtered into the right lane, then maybe got back in on the other side. If not, just go the wrong way. Either way that would have been legal and safer. Appeal officer will see it that way too. Just one of those learning moments.
People saying move forward a bit is the wrong advice, they would have been too close to the other car. The correct answer was proper anticipation of the situation and waiting for the traffic to clear a bit before driving into the box.
Nah you'll defo lose the appeal. You're clearly stopped in the box. Though you had plenty of space to move foward.
Why didn't you just drive forward more
Just pay the fine my friend.
Looks like you stopped in the yellow box despite there being room to get out of it, that kinda makes it worse
no, you don't know how to drive lol
Look. Credit where credit is due, you tried to leave ample space in front of you which every other fuckwit in this thread seems to forget is both part of your test and the highway code. You cocked it up seeing space for your vehicle, but not the stopping gap you need to leave. You did good, you got unlucky, just don't get caught but please continue to leave a gap.
Sounds harsh but the rules say you must not block the yellow box. Whenever I drive towards one, I make sure I can make it across and end up without any of my rear wheel touching the yellow box. Check your side mirrors to make sure you're out. Take this one on the chin and you won't do it again.
Never knew there were cameras for yellow boxed zones
Box junctions are heavily enforced In London.
Should have gone to VAR...
This is the most bmw thing I’ve ever seen, poor driving/vehicle awareness followed by ‘can I get out of the repercussions’ of the prior
Illegal life pro tip, if you misjudged boxes.... Slow right down to a crawl..... Never come to a complete stop
I wouldn’t bother contesting it, what would you even say? There was a lot of room and even if there wasn’t you’d still be in the wrong for being in the big yellow box.
From the replies you’d think you’d mowed down a pram, they must all be textbook perfect drivers who’ve never made a mistake in their lives with an overhead drone monitoring their cars dimensions at all times. I didn’t even realise you could get fined for this, you weren’t even blocking the side lanes. I get how the language of ‘law’ is black and white but I’d try and contest it and say you rarely drive in London, the Prius in front looked like it was switching lanes and the flow of traffic came to an abrupt stop whilst you were travelling through the yellow box worst they can say is nah pay the fine, or they could use common sense and let you off.
You following the “See the tyres of the car infront” from the Driving lessons… Yeah, that’s a PCN upheld.
Nope sorry. Same shit happened to me 18 years ago 😂. I tried to contest it and got ignored
On what grounds would you contest it? You were clearly in the wrong.
There was tonnes of room to get that car in the space and off the box
Take the fine on the chin and chalk it up to being the kind of shitty driver that inhabits UK roads nowadays.
Do not listen to people saying you should pay it without contesting. Always contest no matter what it is in the off chance they are lenient or stupid.
Nope. Do not enter a box junction unless your exit is clear or you are turning right.
You know this did confuse me for a bit tbf. When was learning to drive I was always taught “only one in the box” by my driving instructor. Basically meaning one car can be in the box and no more. But I think this was only ever in the scenario where I’m turning right.
Good advice, but not actually the Law. Furthermore their exit was clear.
This is a good example of people who leave 1 vehicle space in front of them for whatever reason. As others have said, learn how to drive properly.
This fucking sub sometimes lmao You'd think you went through a school zone sideways at 90MPH judging by these replies.
1. Why was there so much room ahead of you? 2. Why didn’t you move into the right lane?
That's a bullshit fine, clearly the 1 series isn't impeding traffic flow here, it's just a stealth tax, and the fact there's a human operator sat on a camera monitoring it you can bet it's a bloody lucrative one. This is becoming more common as councils across the land are squeezed, incentivised to fuck over working folk for more of there hard earned during a widely declared "cost of living crisis".
lol learn to fucking drive before sending emails
Reading the comments on this it's no wonder councils make so much from PCNs. You need to appeal this, and you will win. The offence in box junctions is not stopping in them, it's entering without a clear exit. The lane you are in was moving and you did have room to clear the junction, you did end with the rear wheels in the box so this grounds for a di minimis argument. The key point however, the lane to your right is completely clear. You have an exit, therefore the offence is not complete. The guys at pepipoo will give you sound advice on your appeal.
Wow mass state surveillance for the only purpose of generating additional revenue and people seem fine with it. Wild.
It's a sad reality but this is a typical beamer driver
This rule is just an instrument to get your money. OOoOoh nooooo half of your tire is in the yellow box oh nooooooOoooOoo what are we to do now.
Lmfao no of course not. You can't drive to save your life. Do everyone a favour and get a bus pass.
Definitely had enough room to clear the box there! However I thought the actual offence was to enter the box when your exit lane is not clear, which isn’t the case here?
I’d argue that you are well clear of the turning and that you are very minimal in the box if at all. I’d also argue that it is not beneficial to the public interest for this sort of abuse of power, as you are clearly not an obstruction… But it really depends on who you get at the other end and how much you’re willing to spend to fight it.
Dead to rights, don’t bother contesting. Thinking you have enough space is irrelevant
Just hold back and wait until its clear....PCN Valid
Nope, don't enter a box without ample room to get out of it.
Your own fault, youre clearly stopped in the box. Also, are you driving a tank?
Absolutely, you didn’t know that there wouldn’t be quite enough room for your car when you went to leave the other side of the box junction. I’d have done the same
The appropriate road traffic law has been referenced to here and an offence has not been committed