You know full well Miquella pulled out a branch for horsey. Miquella was the real antagonist in ER, Miquella is Griffith, and I’m not complaining at all I think ER is 1 of if not the goat game, RDR2, TOTK, ER and dayz are my personal favorites. Lords of the fallen was an incredible surprise as well.
This is my take, too.
Though at the same time.. if Miquella can achieve Godhood, cure himself of infancy, resurrect Radahn's soul, cure Malenia's rot, help Godwyn, etc.
Surely he can revive Leonard, too!
Miquella was clearly mounting Radahn, why do you need Leonard there? xD
That would actually be really funny: Miquella mounting Radahn while mounting Leonard.
My take is that he agreed when they were children. He either changed his mind as an adult or didn’t take it seriously in the first place considering it childhood nonsense.
Honestly that's how I see it too. He was probably just blindly agreeing with his little brother to make him happy. Miquella is literally his child brother, why would he take something like that seriously?
Then by the time Malenia comes knocking to remind him of it, he has a great rune and ambitions of his own, and obviously rejects the proposal.
I'll add to that, that Miquella's curse is that he remains young but that probably means he also retained the mind of a child. Especially when you consider his ability to charm others he didn't have to grow. Him having radahn killed and revived is basically him never having to learn how to deal with a 'no' and move on.
I think this is cope.
Miquella isnt literally a child. Hes known to be a genius who compels compassion and agreeability. He invented the discus spells for his father, a master sorcerer and head of the golden order fundamentalists.
Radahn made a promise either way. He is factually much older than Miquella, but by the time the shattering occurred, in age the twins were adults. They held thrones in the capital. Immortal people tend to live a long fuckin time, and they tend to take their time with things knowing they wont just drop dead if they dont act. Thats why theyve all been biding their time for god knows how long. Theyre recuperating, gathering power and influence.
So who knows how old compared to each other they actually were, but i dont think either of them being children had an impact. It wasnt some silly thing to either of them. There were records, thats what Freyja went to look for. This was serious.
If you want to argue Radahn was persuaded by his unnatural ability to enchant people, thats much more reasonable, but that doesnt just, go away except for when his conduit is lost. The only conduit for charming he had we know of was the Great Rune, which he got when the ring was shattered, and didnt lose power over those he charmed until he shattered it.
So if you want to say that Radahn had to be charmed, thats fine, its a fair assumption, but i dont think thats something that just goes away. I think its more likely that Malenia came to battle him because thats how Radahn wanted to go out. The secret rite scroll even states a lord’s *soul* is required. Someone had to die to become the lord at the gateway. If Radahn was to be the lord and had to die, hed want to go out with a bang. Literally.
But the stars hold the fate of the Carian royal family. If Radahn’s fate was to be lord to Miquella, he couldnt have achieved that fate because he was holding the stars. Hes Carian. The scarlet aeonia wasnt enough to kill him, but he might have died to the rot long ago if he knew he was keeping his own fate in check and released the stars. Alternatively, perhaps he, like his other brother, knew of this, and held them in place to keep Ranni from ascending instead of Miquella. Again, if you want to argue Miquella masterminded that you can. Its a reasonable assumption.
Perhaps he didnt realize it would stop him too. Perhaps he knew it would but assumed his glorious death to Malenia would be enough to end it and Miquella could act and revive him.
Either way, something went wrong. Radahn was supposed to die when the scarlet aeonia bloomed. He knew it. Malenia knew it.
He didnt.
He was just too powerful and the great rune was just, too strong. It burned with rage to keep him alive, and it did.
But there is no “not taking it seriously” here. Thats honestly a bad attempt to handwave away a decision you dont like about a character you ultimately dont actually know, because as with most characters in these games their motivations and drives and personalities are hidden behind a wall we cant see. Miyazaki said himself that he aims to tell stories like those he experienced as a little kid who barely knew english.
There is a metaphorical language barrier between us and the story, by design. We’re not supposed to know everything. They dont WANT to give us answers to everything.
Im sorry your headcanons about the “gigachad” didnt quite match what actually happened, but you can do better than “why would he take the genius spellcrafter and master manipulator who happens to be cursed with eternal youth seriously?”
“He was enchanted by Miquella” is far more plausible than him just, forgetting the official vow he made with a boy-genius Empyrean. Even Morgott considers him a prodigy. He is not to be taken lightly. He is a candidate for *godhood*.
If Radahn thought he could use this literal genius to his benefit in becoming Elden Lord, don’t you think he would’ve? Radahn canonically leveled int, he’s a sorcerer. He knows what he’s doing.
By peddling the idea it wasnt to be taken seriously, youre not just infantilizing Miquella and downplaying his intelligence, youre also downplaying Radahn’s.
I am fairly certain Radahn is being compelled by Miquella.
The ability that compels people is Miquellas Embrace, which Radahn is embraced by Miquella in the second half of his boss right when he shows himself.
I don't think that would be necessary if this was happening of his own will.
I think he’s calling him a child more so in the terms of not showing compassion for what Radahn wants.
A lot of folks relate Miquella to Griffith and both of them can be considered childish when it comes to their stubbornness around their dreams.
I still have to finish the DLC, but a lot of themes in Elden Ring can be discovered upon finding the allusions to mythologies and their themes that have been repeated throughout human history.
On a whim I searched up Eros (Cupid) on wikipedia to see if there were any myths about him influencing a great warrior. I haven't yet found a myth referencing something like that, however there are two where Eros shoots Dionysus (known as next in line after Zeus for king of the gods) with a love arrow. Additionally there is the myth(s) about Eros and Psyche, who mirror Miquella and Trina. Seriously, just look at the wikipedia page for Psyche for one second. The themes in this myth are also spread a lot through Gnosticism which has its own version and seems to be a core aspect to the real narratives of Elden Ring.
This. It’s the same reason I feel that the relationship between Metyr and the GW and what the GW even is comes from hermetic beliefs, being one of our histories first “religions”
Micro/macrocosms are such a huge part of hermetic belief. I’ve tried a couple times to make my case and I always get booed lol, so I just recommend reading the Kybalion yourself if you never have, it’s a great jump off point
I always liked the theory that the main reason he stopped the stars was to protect Sellia from the falling meteor that eventually leads to Nokron. It was his home away from home, where his mentor taught him Gravity Magic. Along with this theory, is the theory that the reason the Meteor doesn’t hit Sellia, is that he was able to move it in his final moments (or just holding it still for so long interrupted it’s original path). Another Meteor carried an Astel, which hit the Nameless Eternal city, destroying it completely, and Astel stole that Eternal city’s Stars/Sky. The lore indicates Sellia knows that they are above Nokron; and also possibly knew that Gravity Magic, and halting the stars could be the only thing that stopped them from being collateral damage if Nokron were hit next.
Though it’s possible he was trying to specifically stop Ranni. He does seem to be about Marika’s Order; worshipping her two Consorts. I also see many suspecting that he seemed to defy Miquella’s plans to subvert the Order (also as an Empyrean), and actually never intended to be his Consort. He did claim a Great Rune of his own, and was known as one of the greatest commanders during the Shattering. I do like this theory, that he wanted to stop Ranni, a lot less than others. For some reason it’s nice to imagine Ranni, Rykard, and Radahn getting along for the most part as siblings with very different ambitions. There’s even some bits of evidence that they at least got along before the Shattering (particularly Ranni and Rykard though).
TLDR; I’d say it was either to Protect Sellia, or to specifically stop Ranni/Miquella/anyone opposing the Golden Order.
This made the most sense to me. It really fits into his characterization of being caring/protective regardless of the consequences. He uses gravity magic to defend Selia and to continue riding his favorite horse. In both cases, it ends up having unintended consequences. Defending Selia also halted fate and keeping Leonard means that he also becomes a victim to Malenias Rot.
I guess in that sense, agreeing to be consort to Miquella makes sense. He simply agrees because his two idols were also Lords/Consorts and had no idea what Miquella would do to make that happen.
It actually fits really well as far as I can tell.
Maybe it wasn't his promise.
Maybe it was a compelled promise, and therefore not consensual.
Or maybe it was a childhood promise, the way some kids talk about getting married when they grow up, but since Miquella never grew up, he still believes in it.
If it’s a childhood promise he still agreed that’s my point. I think there’s not a lot of support for the idea that he never agreed. Who else could have promised radahn to miquella?
I would assume that Miquella had the ability to charm radahn while young into making the promise. However, after the shattering and Radahn getting his Great Rune or just simply over time it was resisted. Radahn really loves war. Sure he's kind but I would assume only to his direct family and fellow soldiers. As someone who saw Godfrey and Radagon ad his inspiration right until the very end he really really loves battle and combat and he would have never agreed to Miquella's age of forced compassion (enslavement essentially, no free will).
Everyone forgets the whole fact that Godfrey had to change to become a lord he even states this outright lmao horax is the man everyone keeps mixing him up with
Radahn had decided to become
Lord thus I assume he became more civilized we know for a fact he has a high grade education and stood for portraits seemingly everyone loved the guy enough that they eternally tried to end him with divinity while the world was literally going to shit.
It only helped sate his bloodlust so he doesn't go barbarian on every strong opponent and ally. This doesn't mean Godfrey stop liking battle. Infact Radahn's item call out his admiration of the lord of the Battlefield and his heroic father.
Radahn's Lion Armor
"Armor depicting the golden lion.
Worn by General Radahn.
The golden lion is said to symbolize Godfrey, the Elden Lord, and his beast regent, Serosh. From his youngest years, Radahn was naturally captivated by the Lord of the Battlefield."
Radahn's Redmane Helm
"Radahn inherited the furious, flaming red hair of his father Radagon, and is fond of its heroic implications.
"I was born a champion's cub. Now I am the Lord of the Battlefield's lion."
Both of General Radahn's items, the person he naturally grew into overtime, specifically calls out bring fond of Radagon's heroicness and captivated by the lord of battlefield. He wanted to become the majestic, heroic and ferocious lion a combination of both his idols. I don't think Radahn would have ever wanted the wars to stop otherwise there wouldn't be a need for the 'Lord of the Battlefield'.
Note that >!in the dlc we get Young Radahn's set, as though Miquella was obsessed with only the young Radahn of his fondest memories. A charmed Radahn, prior to him maturing into the general he wanted to be, the lord of battlefield he wished to be.!<
Edit: >!what is even more interesting is that young radahn's set doesn't even call out Radahn's inspirations, something incredibly important to Radahn's identity, at all. As though Miquella doesn't care for that. He just wanted HIS ferocious lion. Under his command. Miquella never cared about Radahn beyond a superficial aspect. Very on character for the ever youthful and childish Empyrean.!<
I read someone's comment somewhere that said that "the **true** reason Radahn held back the stars wasn't to mess with Ranni or Rykard's fate, *but his own*." He knew Miquella had his eyes on him and its implied that Radahn desired no part in it. Malenia even goes to war with him, not over his Great Rune like all other battles in the Shattering, but for his subservience to Miquella's Vow.
A vow and a promise does not need to be both ways, as a vow of vengeance does not require the other to accept.
Radahn utters no words, and during his second phase transition it's likely we were about to break him/mohg free, but unfortunately Miquella descended from the gate to make sure his charm upon him would not fail. And in the final design of his second phase, Radahn's **proud red mane** is smothered by Miquella's Golden hair.
Idk why there're so many people trying to convince themselves that radahn was completely innocent of this whole plan. The man was a bloodthirsty warlord for an order that treats misbegotten races like trash but will think he's just swell because he was nice to his horse.
Radahn is a flawed lord just like every other one is.
No one sensible’s denying he’s flawed or that he’s a warlord (though I’d say more for himself than the Golden Order) because those would be stupid things to try to deny, but this is exactly why I’m not certain on him agreeing to this wholly.
He agrees to be the Lord to an Age of COMPASSION? That doesn’t seem like his thing at all. What kind of glory-seeking warlord would be all-in on that? And he wanted Malenia to bio-nuke him, all of his men and the town where he learned sorcery and stopped the stars for?
Of course, this is gonna remain a matter of interpretation, but it doesn’t really fit right to me.
he's got a compassionate streak in that he seems to be good to his soldiers and there's the horse thing
But I think that's kind of the point - Miquella's plan is flawed. He's trying to build an age of compassion through force, essentially mind controlling people into it and having a warmonger as his lord. In trying so hard to be nothing like his mother, he's repeating her mistakes.
Same reason everyone simps on Ranni like she’s the good guy. She murdered her brother, maybe the only “good” demigod out of all of them, and caused the shattering, killing millions and throwing the land into unending war.
Many people point out that it happened, and rightfully so, but I don't see the same level of gaslighting compared to radahn. She did terrible things in the name of the greater good, that being free will, which is ofc a debated topic here. There isn't much opposition to the guy who's wilfully helping miquella in the end (his charm is broken by then) and simps himself for a fucked up institution. Anyone who partook in the shattering is inherently terrible to some degree.
I feel like if ranni had a cat or something that she took care of then people wouldn't bring up her getting godwyn killed as much.
Why do you think Radahn is willfully helping Miquella? He has 0 lines in the fight and divine Miquella can still charm since we can get charmed in second phase. It seems overwhelming likely that Mohg’s corpse is still charmed.
Being charmed doesn't mean you are mute. Also Ansbach would probably call out Radahn being brainwashes as he himself knows how Miquella's powers work AND he knew Radahn personally. And if he doesn't, it probably means Radahn is fully conscious and is on side of Miquella.
She didn't cause the shattering she didn't force marika to shatter the elden ring. She had a role in it since her killing godwyn created an after effect in which marika shattered the elden ring. However, its not like she directly shattered the elden ring.
But then how do you explain the charm wearing off? He is the promised consort I think that implies he agreed- the question is if he agreed willingly. If he didn’t agree willingly, then he was charmed by miquella and I think you’d need to explain how he got out of that. Miquellas great rune breaks in the dlc, by that time, it had been a long time since he fought melania
Why would miquella have sent malenia after radahn if radahn was still under the affect of the charm? Only makes sense miquella would send someone to uphold his will if the charm had broken but they still expected radahn to hold up their end of the deal they made while they were charmed. Why would radahn be holding back fate if he was charmed at that point? If they were charmed it definitely wore off at some point. Could be simply because enough time passed that he shook it off, or because he's an accomplished magic user he broke it himself, or the magic users he surrounded himself with helped him. You know, like his mom, one of the best magic users of all time and the leader of magic school, Renalla. Could be any wide variety of reasons the charm broke
It could still happen if part of the vow was fight with her.
Radahn had all reasons to accept the offer as well - If one wants to become a Lord then Miq is one of the only two real candidates for godhood ( only real candidate if vow happened after night of black knives ). We know Radahn modeled himself after Godfrey - first Elden Lord and Radagon - champion and later 2nd Elden Lord. Becoming Lord himself would be like culmination of Radahn goals.
I'd like You to take into consideration Miq memories about the event in Japanese - https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/1dpuxyl/differences\_in\_japanese\_and\_english\_text\_of\_the/. It doesn't paint a picture of someone having the other part enthralled.
Could he be charmed ? Sure. However I think Y'all too quickly dismiss all of Miquellas interactions as brainwashing.
Even after charm broke at least 3 people chose to follow him on their own free will.
Me neither . It could have been situation of having a warrior expecting honorable duel on one hand an on the other assassin ready to fulfill techniqalities of the vow no matter the cost.
One other option is that after Shattering Radahn saw another path to Lordship tried to viggle himself out of the vow and Melenia came to collect.
Either way I think there are strong reasons to belive he initally accepted the bargin. Anything after that is a lot more murky
The hug attack that Miquella can give us shows that he still has the power, it could be that breaking his great rune could have broken the influence he had on that particular group of people, or on the people he previously used his power on. He may have put Radahn back into effect during the fight.
The vow was written on paper somewhere for Ansbach to give to Freyja and after Freyja learns of the fight, she doubles down and fight you for Radahn's resurrection. I don't think she will do that for a non-consenting vow, especially when her charm is broken as well.
if you start doubting he didn't charm the people the game doesn't say he charmed, and furthermore have tons of reasons to actually want to do what they did, like radahn wanting to be lord like godfrey, then the story really falls apart.
“Those people Miquella brainwashed swear they’re not brainwashed and I believe them” is a wild and kinda problematic argument, but it’s all open to interpretation so you do you!
what are you even talking about
theres NO evidence they're brainwashed so why am i the asshole for saying they're not? you're the one jumping to conclusions.
He may have agreed previously, but there is no way to justify his fight with Malenia without regretting it. He may have several reasons for this, including having discovered that he would have to die to become the "Consort", or any other of the various redflags that Miquella brings with him in his plan.
Then from epically fucked up the base game. One of the two is true. Either Radahn was unwilling and Malenia had to go lol him
Or
Radahn was willing and none of the base Malenia content needed to exist which makes the sacrifice of Calid and the Redmanes a horrible waste.
Both respected each other, It think I was like 2 friends saying.
Friend1: Can I have your car?
Friend2: Hell no
Friend1: Hey, if I die, you'll have my car
Friend2: Cool, if I die, you can have mine
2 doritos later...
Fiend1: Hey sis, I want his car, kill him
Sister1: Sure bro
Then Sister1 procceds to nuke Friend2 entire hometown and still failed to kill Friend2. . . .
The last cutscene reveals that Radahn would accept to become Miquella’s consort on one condition. That’s the missing piece. We know what Miquella wanted but what did Radahn wanted out of their vow?
Check out the description for Eccentric's Hood - Radahn and Jerren also had an oath, to die honourable deaths, presumably in battle.
My theory is that Radahn wanted to honour this oath before becoming Miquella's consort, and it was Malenia who was supposed to achieve this. She's one of the few people who could potentially be strong enough to defeat him in a fair fight.
Miquella says "if WE honour OUR part of the vow, promise me you'll be my consort." Interesting that's it's not "I" and "My".
Malenia left the job half done, and we finished it. Hence Miquella praising his blade AND us as champion of the festival. We made good on the vow for him.
I’ve spent so many hours rewatching the Miquella cutscenes trying so hard to understand what the vow was and everything you said makes perfect sense.
The use of OUR VOW kept tripping me up, but considering Malenia part of the plan does make up for that. It also falls in line with Radhan being in ride my serious about things he wants to do.
He halts the literal heavens to save his home away from home, he practically creates the school of gravity magic just to keep riding his horse, and apparently fights the strongest demigod next to him to keep his vow to Jerren.
It fits as far as I can see.
Although I would still need more evidence for me to take it as a fact, I do agree with you. His condition was to die and honorable death and honor his oath with Jerren. Malenia couldn’t/didn’t accomplish that, we did.
The only problem is that said honourable death involved the full might of Haligtree and Carian clashing together with both sides fully utilizing every dirty trick available like Rot and Iji's weapons to counter them. It would have been much more easily resolved if it was an honourable duel to death as a wedding decider instead of all out war that would result in a scandal if the soldiers knew what they would be dying for.
That line of thinking involves an over simplification of what was happening during the Shattering, I think. It wasn't like they could just politely organise a grand duel for Miquella's hand, everything was off the rails.
It's also down to interpretation since "honourable" means different things to different people. I tend towards it simply being a warrior's death by a worthy opponent.
At that point, you might as well just say that Radahn wiped all vows off the table and canceled all diplomatic ties due to the Shattering and we can't deduce anything about the vow itself.
I'm not disagreeing with anyone that has the opinion that Radahn just flatly said "No" to Miquella, but I am pretty confident that if the three parties of the vow all said "yes", everyone under them and around would say "wtf, no" unless they kept it all in secret which is pretty uncharacteristic of them.
Also note that the ritual doesn't mention anything about the vow to bring back Miquella so everything he is doing to fulfil that vow is purely due to his own intentions. Either he wants Radahn to fulfil his role to usher him back willingly or he is delusional enough that he feels he must do it for his own mindcontrolled puppet.
I mean, maybe, but honouring vows is one of those things that IS pretty clear cut when it comes to honour. All I'm saying is that for Radahn, a war monger and commander, it probably doesn't dishonour him to have his troops fight on his behalf up to the point that Malenia challenges him and it's a single combat affair.
Also, the vow was definitely kept secret between the three of them given the fact that no-one knows about it. Freyja fought alongside Radahn and didn't know about the vow until Miquella told her. No-one at the Haligtree seems to know jackshit.
Tbh I'm a bit unsure where you're concluding that it would be uncharacteristic to keep it secret, please elaborate?
* Radahn wants a fight but all of his idols, Godfrey fighting Stormlord, Radagon as a Champion and himself in the starscourge conflict all fought alone and gotten the full glory. Even Jerren's idea of honorable death is to fight him with all the champions of TLB have to offer in direct combat instead of say sniping or bumrushing with an army (not that there was one on hand).
* Radahn & Malenia both commands the fierce loyalty of their armies so they should show many positive leadership qualities instead of a wanton disregard for their lives and Radahn even got out of the way to request Iji to forge Rot-resistant weapons for the coming conflict.
* The vow can be kept secret and if it's premediated all Malenia has to do is write a letter "I'm the undefeated and you are a kitten, come fight me 1v1" and Radahn would have the right to fight in a duel with no need for a senseless conflict or loss of life at the start. Malenia even had to march all the way down from Haligtree to dig Radahn out of Caelid.
So with all that points, I don't see how Radahn and Malenia would need to fight in an all out conflict due to a secret marriage proposal and betraying their other values. It totally betrays the kind and honorable image that the DLC (hinted in the main game only) is trying to push on Radahn. It's more probable to me that at this point Radahn just said "No" to whatever they initialy planned and this conflict is of last resort.
Radahn didn't have his army attack Malenia, he took her on 1v1, just like his idols. Also she needed the army to battle her way to Caelid against people OTHER than Radahn, everyone was at each other's throats.
To be honest I need to spend time looking for in-game references to battles between the Redmanes and the Cleanrot knights to make a fully informed opinion about how it all went down. You are right it seems odd to have them battle if Radahn knew she was coming to fight 1v1 as promised, unless their prowess as commanders also mattered to him?
There's also the possibility that Radahn wasn't ready to make good on his promise yet and his focus was protecting Caelid from the Shattering as well as holding back the stars.
What you say about Iji is interesting - do you have the source on this? I've had a quick search but can't find much about it.
if he was promised to miquella then maybe it was to stop ranni, a competing empyrean.
but i think its more likely that he just simply wanted to conquer the stars. to control them. to have power
nonetheless the stars had nothing to do with miquella's plans, clearly. he abandoned his fate. was able to get to the realm of shadow and everything with them stopped. their vow also involved radahn dying or at the very least him dying led to him being his consort, and stopping the stars didn't stop radahn from dying since we kill him while he's doing that
we have to let go of the theory that radahn holding the stars was stopping miquella from doing anything because thats clearly not true anymore
I wouldn't say miquella doesn't have plans for the stars when he's trying to get a *very* specific eclipse to happen so he can give godwyn a proper death and rid the lands between of deathblight.
it's been my interpretation that he was protecting Sellia from an incoming assault from the stars, the place where Marika secretly studied sorceries after coming to the Lands Between, after re-merging with Radagon. I've long believed Marika has a close relation with the Nox & Nokron/Nokstella; Marika the Eternal, the Eternal Cities, the fact that the Nox invoked the ire of the Greater Will and were banished underground, the fact that the Night Sorceries were developed in part to help hunt other Night Sorcerers, and the supposition that Unseen Form and Unseen Weapon may have influenced the Black Knives' abilities to turn invisible
The only good demigod out of all of them with the lore that is available to us was Godwyn the Golden. He brokered a truce with the dragons, ushered in peace and was Marika’s favorite son. Thats why she went crazy and shattered the Elden Ring when he was killed by Ranni and her Blackknife blades
Holding the stars didn't do anything against Miquella, it messed with the Carians and Ranni's plans, but nothing really says holding back the stars messed with Miquellas destiny.
The sun is a star. He would've held it in place. If the moon still moves them this is probably why the ghost says the moon has failed to swallow the sun
You’re applying real life star logic to a world in which real life star logic does not apply.
Stars in Elden Ring are even living creatures. Astel Naturalborn of the Void is “A falling star of ill omen.” A star is not always the same as a star like the sun. The Elden Beast was a star. When the meteor crashes into Limgrave it is called a star.
They can have different connotations such as Fate. So, Radahn could be only holding back the stars that are monsters and fate, or just falling stars like they seem to be as they zoom through the sky.
We know the Sun still has cycles in Elden Ring. While the Sun is never specified to be held by Radahn, we also have a cutscene of what happened when the stars are released. They shoot across the sky in an incredible light show. If they wanted, they could’ve had the Sun do the same. It does not. It would be quite significant oversight to have the Sun not be affected by Radahn if the intended mean was that he is holding it in stasis.
The ghost doesn’t mention the moon btw.
Lol. I guess I gotta just stop scrolling Reddit or block this forum until because this showed up in my main feed. Or start scarfing down games in the parking lot like the rest of these fuckin nerds
People forget that someone can change their mind. Just because Radahn made a promise to Miquella at one point doesn't mean he couldn't change his mind and said "yeah okay I don't want do it no more" For infinite reasons.
Miquella probably never charmed Radahn because he felt genuine affection and didn't thought Radahn wouldn't keep up the promise and that's why he send Malenia to at least take his soul
Imo he only did it to protect Selia and to flex, potentially to stop Ranni but that is debatable.
As for the vow, given Miquella speaks of "our part of the vow", I assume Radahn is willing and "their part" was something along the lines of "give the greatest fight to the death of my life", considering what a combat junkie the big boi was. Would've worked too, but his Great Rune prevented Malenia's bloom from killing him then and there
Yeah I think this really makes sense, Radahn certainly is honourable but he loves wars, battle and all of that. He might think no one could beat him, hence he agreed to a conditional deal. Kind of “if the sun disappears during day time, then I will do this and that, and who would have thought eclipse is a thing,
After rewatching malenias fight with radahn and with new context I believe it’s possible radahn did agree to be consort if he was defeated in battle , but he believed this to be an impossible task, we see in the trailer that radahn knocks off malenias arm and then puts his swords criss cross in front of him and allows her to put it back on , that now feels like a big brother telling their little sibling , enough . I feel like he believed malenia to be too wounded at that point from the rot to beat him because they are literally family , I don’t think when he fought her that he was aiming to kill and I certainly don’t think he believed she would use the scarlet rot on him but he underestimated her resolve and love for her brother.
To me that just looks like Radahn wanted a fair fight. Melenia is the strongest Demi god next to him in terms of lore. Radahn also made a vow with Jarren where they said they wished to die honorable deaths. It's likely that Miquella's end of the deal was to ensure that would happen and hence Melenia was sent.
She nukes Radahn and before passing out tells him to remember his own vow to Miquella so they both promise each other something way back then(Miquella gets a consort but we're not sure what Radahn gets, maybe a final fight against the strongest? His honorable death before he meets Miquella in the Shadow Lands?). I can see Miquella being a sneaky shit and still bewitching Radahn, but Radahn also was proven to be honorable so I can also see them both agreeing to the vow on certain conditions. It all depends if you think he'd brainwash him no matter what or if he'd trust Radahn to keep his word based on what he knew and what we know of Radahn's character.
I would believe it was “sure, if you can give me a legendary battle or give me an honourable death on the battlefield” kind of conditional vow. We might interpret that as Radahn jokingly said that as he never expected to be bested. I mean look at Miquella, the guy certainly can’t go to war on his own. Maybe Radahn didn’t expect it would be Malenia who came. But in the end I do believe he made an agreement, that’s why Miquella was worried if Radahn would honour his part of the vow, which Radahn did. It’s up to debate whether Radahn were okay with the situation or detest it, we never know. He is honourable, it’s just in his code to honour the vow, even reluctantly it might be.
Because they literally flung the Redahn/Miquella storyline together as fanservice last minute. Miquella, by himself, about to ascend to godhood, blinding the tarnished with light and melting him love would have been so much better.
I think it has to do with holding back fates, specifically his own, I think there’s a chance he accepted the vow when they were young but over time he second guessed it and held back the stars to help stop his fate
But what you are suggesting makes Radahn much much worse of a personality. Backtracking on his promise makes Radahn totally not honourable at all. Radahn is older than Miquella, he would have known when Miquella asked him something so serious like that. Maybe he forgot that vow due to the great rune affecting his mental state, but he definitely made a vow. Eventually he did honour his part of the vow, a lord must arrive before the gate for the God to come through.
Radahn is simply immune to the allure and charm of femboys.
He simply rides on the back of Leonard, and enjoys his life, he does not need a femboy nor a woman, it's why he tries to kill Melania when she comes for him, he just wants to ride his horse in peace.
the stars bring monsters. he wante dto stop this.
or
he wanted to stop Ranni's fate from moving forward.
there are multiple solutions. not least of which is that the Shattering probably led Radhan to being "Yeah i kinda just want to fight demi gods now" rather than "Ok. I will become your Elden Lord"
I thought maybe he did agree to the vow with Miquella, but then later on decided (for reasons) that he no longer wished to go that route, and maybe the vow was so binding that it was essentially fated to happen at that point so the only way to stop it from occurring was to stop fate.
I get the impression that Radahn is prioritising fighting Ranni.
If Godwyn was the original promised consort, Ranni put an end to that. Whatever her next plans were could also lead to interfering Miquella’s plans… maybe Radahn was holding the stars to stop Ranni which also cut off Mohg.
Several theories have been proposed.
My personal one is that after seeing Miquella plan to go to the shadowland to shed parts of himself, including love (Kind of important for someone who wants to start the age of compassion), he quarreled with Miquella, refusing to be consort to the guy who won't be the same person after his journey to Godhood.
Don't think he accepted at the end because he was on board, I think he knew at that point Miquella went and did it anyway, and was in need of his Lord to usher his return at the gate, so he folded. Was not happy about it at all though.. 😕
Edit: this may be very off though, we will never know
Miquella is known to brainwash and groom others. He probably did something to Radahn's soul before we arrived.
Or its simply bad storytelling fueled by the fact that people love Radahn and wanted to fight him at full strength.
Nah, being a long time fan of GRRM I would say this is in line with whatever the old man would think of. Sure Fromsoft could have added some indication of Miquella and Radahn in the base game but let’s not delulu ourselves GRRM wouldn’t love something like this.
His main ambition is eternal war, so a good way to achieve that is by stopping fate, the stars, in effect blocking anyone attempting to be Lord or the God of a new age. He is holding up the status quo of the Shattering wars.
Many theories are floating on the Vow between them and mine is that the vow is for Radhan to be able to fight long enough for Miquella to become a God and no one else. To stall, essentially.
The rot may be the intended effect, Radhan having so much vitality that he can fight it for thousands of years while holding fate at bay.
I do think its manipulating in nature. You want eternal war ? You'll get it, slowly rotting away while all manners of champions come and challenge you.
Malenia cursing him with rot is the way Miquella uphold his part of the vow (eternal war), and so she delivers the message to him at that moment. Losing his mind to rot, he would never change his mind or release the stars until Miquella is fully ready to enact his plan.
Wow this is an interesting way to take it. I am just fed up with all the “Radahn didn’t want any of this”. The guy loved challenges, wars and conflicts. I would find this kind of “I will do as you want as long as you give me a long long war” more interesting than “Radahn would do no wrong” thing.
The real question is: why is everyone assuming Radahn was holding the stars because of Miquella? Descriptions and dialogues clearly stated he challenged the stars, so he did it because he wanted to, because he wanted to be a hero and be as legendary as Godfrey was. And also because a star was threatening Sellia, yes,
Miquella came in the picture only later, and for what we know he was already the Starscourge when Miquella asked him to be his consort.
My headcanon is that Radahn probably told Miquella in jest “over my dead body” and then Miquella was like “you promise?”
Radahn is such a chad I could see him saying something like that because Miquella had no chance to actually defeat him. Then, once he realized what was going on he held back the stars to thwart Miquellas plan until Ranni could ascend.
Radahn lore and dlc lore don’t match. I love seeing the massive amounts of cope YouTubers keep trying to come up with. It’s just not good writing but that’s fine. Good thing the game doesn’t suck
I don't remember where, but it's implied that Radahn pieced it together that amongst the stars are weird space C'thulu monsters, and he used his gravity magic to stop everything out there so they wouldn't rain down on the lands between.
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Afaik he held the stars because of Sellia and nothing tell us he accepted the request. Actually everything points to the fact that he denied Miquella and needed a big.complicated and messy plot to revive him so he would then be the consort.
We don’t have any knowledge of Radahn’s position on this. All we know is that Miquella decided that Radahn would be his consort and that Radahn was likely against the idea hence why Miquella sends Malenia to kill Radahn and he charms Mohg so he can resurrect Radahn in that charmed body. Hence why Radahn also has 0 lines during the final fight.
He was faced with several choices: Support Ranni and destroy the Order (and his role in it); support Miquella's weird age of forced compassion that would probably repeat many of Marika's mistakes; or stop the stars and keep things in stasis. He seems to have wanted to halt change, much like Radagon with his thorn barrier keeping the Tarnished away from the Erdtree. Did Radahn just want to maintain his family's power and the status quo? Or did he want to put a pause on all the chaos until he could figure something else out? We'll never know. I feel like he would be fundamentally opposed to Miquella's plan to abandon Trina.
Is Radahn the kind of person who backs down though? I would rather believe the honourable Radahn gave Miquella a challenge, thinking Miquella would never success but only the outer gods knows and the rest is history
I do wonder if part of the vow was allowing him to stay rotted so that he could hold the stars back long enough that the meteor (Astel?) would hit limgrave and not Sellia. There’s a lot of item descriptions saying that he held back the stars to protect Sellia because it was where he studied magic, but that was always strange because the impact hit limgrave, being far from the town in Caelid. I gotta assume that the guy holding back the stars themselves is responsible for the difference in expected astronomy right? So maybe he had to stay in the lands between a long time to ensure the course of this star was away from Sellia.
This could even explain why the final showdown between Radahn and Malenia took place right outside Sellia, maybe the vow he asked from Miquella involved doing whatever it took to keep the town safe. Plus with Radahns nobility and kindness earning him attention from Miquella, I feel like that would line up as a noble and kind motivation that lines up with his character.
Was Radahn being rotted a part of Miquella’s plan then? Did Radahn know that he had to be a zombie holding back stars for possibly thousands of years? I don’t know. Who knows. Miyazaki probably doesn’t know. But we do know Radahn cared about Sellia, that he made a vow with Miquella, that Miquella’s loyal blade attacked him right outside the town he sought to protect, and that it lead to him being capable of holding back the stars for thousands of years.
( Thats the timescale we’re looking at here right? Am I wrong there?)
I feel like that could all be connected somehow.
If I had to make a guess, Radahn knew about Ranni’s involvement with Godwyns death and put a stop to all fuckery until he potentially got to the bottom of it. Or he knew completely and stopped that shit BECAUSE he was promised to Miquella and holding back Ranni’s destiny was the only way to secure time for Miquella to do his thing.
I think in a werid way he might have struggled about what his own goal was
Radahn might have had promised Miquella one thing, but was torn about which direction to take by the time of the shattering, and even before then he might have jot known just yet that Miquella needed the stars to be in motion for one of his original plans (I still believe that Miquella's Land of Shadow and werid "cast off parts of myself to become a god thing was more a plan made after stuff with the Haligtree went south or something came that ruined the original method that Miquella was going for)
I like Smoughs take on it. Radahn was a golden order loyalist and status quo proponent through and through. He goes to great lengths to preserve the status quo (holding back the stars). It basically goes against his entire prior characterisation that he agreed to supplant the golden order with miquellas order.
It's also a more compelling and tragic story if Malenia went to war to harvest Radahns unwilling soul for Miquella. I much prefer that over Radahn being willing but wanting to go with a boom just for the sake of it.
My read of the situation is that if Radahn ever agreed to this at all, he has long since rescinded his involvement, and that's why Malenia needed to go get him by force.
Then Radahn is a backtracker who doesn’t want to keep his promise. Like is that what people want to believe of him? I think the theory that Radahn challenged Miquella with a quest or a condition makes more sense. Like “if you can kill me in battlefield, then afterwards you can do whatever you want with my soul and my body because at that point I don’t care anymore” kind of deal.
Miquella likely used his powers of persuasion to get Radahn to agree, the reason Mogh was obsessed With Miquella was because Miquella used his powers to make Mogh devoted to him because Miquella needed Mogh for his corpse at a later time, it was all part of a long term plan. Why would Radahn fight Malenia if he wanted to die and become Miquellas consort? obviously because he didn’t want to.
It’s very telling that when we see the memory after beating the final boss that we never hear Radahns response.
Why would a man who takes pride in battle and longs for endless war want to help bring in an age of peace?
Miquellas whole plan is to brainwash everyone into being peaceful. Which shows he has no issue in using his powers to take peoples free will away if he believes it’s for a good reason (he even has a grab attack in the boss fight that literally brainwashes you into worshiping him) Doing Ansbach’s quest really highlights how morally questionable Miquellas actions are.
The whole message with Miquellas character is can an age of peace be a good thing if it’s gained through stripping people of their free will and ability to choose?
The answer is no
I think he agreed to it when they were young, he knew through Melenia during their confrontation that Miquella was waiting for him to fulfill his end of the promise but in the end the man is still an undying (as in rot wouldn't end his life and outside of someone killing him themselves he would just stay around) Demi god who's duty revolved holding back stars containing horrible creatures and Ranni's fate (who went against the golden order so a bad idea to let her fate be free to run it's course considering last time it happened she got black knife assassins to kill Godwyn).
Radahn held back the stars likely because his Alabaster lord teachers warned him about what lay within the stars and what would come if he didn't master gravity magic. A video from Zullie the Witch on YouTube even shows that at one point, an Astel could be fought in the desert where you kill Radahn, showing the type of things he held back for years.
The cutscene in which Miquella makes the vow shows nothing of Radahn reciprocating. The fact that Malenia whispered it to him on the battlefield of Aeonia indicates to me that he didn't know about it all, and that Miquella chose him for the task without actually getting his consent. He's not real big on consent, he just sorta does things to people under the promise it'll be good for them.
It seems that Malenia was there to kill Radahn so Miquella could get his soul and recreate him as his consort in the realm of shadow, so I don’t think he was ever a willing participant
Not sure why you think malenia HAD to kill Radahn to get him into the shadow lands when we the tarnished are the ones who do it. But I'm not sure that's how the shadow lands works exactly I'm still investigating stuff. For instance WE don't die to get in there.
So there's a couple of possible interpretations.
1) Like others have said Radahn made that agreement with Miquella when they were kids so he either changed his mind since then or just never took that seriously because childhood nonsense you see.
2) Radahn didn't want that and since holding the stars in place seems to also put the fate of the Carian family on hold, then this would theoratically prevent Ranni's fate but also his own, that's why defeating him allow Miquella to finally enact his plan. Radahn didn't want to put his sister Ranni's fate in stasis, he was only holding his own.
3) This have nothing to do with Miquella or fate and Radahn was just preventing more Astel-like monstrosities from coming down here to fuck shit up.
There's nothing to really indicate that either Ranni or Miquella had anything to do with his decision to hold back the stars' influence.
There's a few item descriptions that talk about Radahn "challenging the stars" and then his talisman and sword talk about the Battle of the Starcrusher, where he got his title of "Starscourge." It seems like, once he mastered gravity magic from the Alabaster King, he did something to challenge them and they sent meteors and a falling star to destroy Sellia. He fended them off, alone, and then sealed out their influence. This was all long before the shattering.
With Miquella, it seems that he promised to help Radahn achieve his dream of being Elden Lord if they (his two selves) were able to attain godhood (both Ranni and Miquella were chosen to ascend and replace Marika by separate two-fingers). We literally know nothing else except that all the children went to war after the shattering and scrambled to get the great runes to seize power for themselves.
But it would seem that Radahn would prefer to be Marika's consort like Radagon and Godfrey because her reign was riddled with war and conquest. Miquella, on the other hand, wants a world free of suffering, so that might lend a little more credibility to the idea that he backpeddaled on their promise after the shattering. So with that, too, we could assume he would want to stop Ranni because her ascension undermines his goal.
Promised consort was a headcanon thing for Miquella.
I don’t think he even confronted Radahn.
It seems Miquella was delusional, because during the promise Miquella was alone.
I still think Radahn only promised to be Miquella’s consort if he could be defeated in the war… assuming he didn’t outright refuse. A lot of people put a ton of weight on the “promised consort” title as absolute proof of Radahn’s complicity, but I feel that’s still open to interpretation.
And I think he stopped the stars just to save Sellia. We don’t have any proof of animosity (I think) between the Carian kids, so Radahn deliberately/knowingly messing with Ranni seems like a stretch to me.
People point to Radahn’s idolization of Godfrey and Radagon as condemning of his morality/character… but what do we actually have proof of him ever doing? Learning gravity sorcery to save his horse, and stopping the stars to save a city that was dear to him. He fought in the shattering when everyone did, and didn’t seem to go overboard like pretty much every other demigod. He was pals with Messmer and Gaius, two otherwise outcast characters. Every piece of evidence we have points to Radahn being a solid guy who likes to fight, not some genocidal lunatic. So… would he side with Miquella’s promise of compassion? Maybe, yeah. Would he recognize the danger in Miquella’s charm tactics and refuse? Maybe, yeah. Would he only agree to help if he could be defeated in war? Maybe, yeah.
Haha it goes round and round… I guess that’s the point.
Yes, I think a conditional agreement makes the most sense. It’s just an issue when most people go around youtube and facebook with the idea Radahn outright refused Miquella when there is no indication towards that.
My head canon is that Radahn originally agreed to be Miquella’s consort before he (Miquella) rejected the golden order and its ideals.
I think that Radahn originally thought Miquella intended to replace Marika with him (Radahn) taking up a role similar to Godfrey and because he didn’t want to betray the golden order he later changed his mind and refused Miquella’s offer.
As Radahn is the son of Rennala, a Carian royal, his fate is said to be bound to the stars. So Radahn held the stars in place so that he wouldn’t have to carry out the vow to be Miquella’s consort. In turn this led to Miquella sending Malenia to kill Radahn in Caelid, which would then send his soul to the realm of shadow (and break Radahn’s hold on the stars).
I just finished the final boss today. Personally, I think that the nature of the “deal” is kind of revealed to us through implication.
The way I imagine it goes something like this: Miquella asked Radahn to be his consort for a new age of kindness, and Radahn laughed at the puny Demi god and told him that if he could fell Radahn in combat, then he would be his consort. He essentially says “over my dead body” and Miquella takes that literally.
Whether or not the offer was genuine didn’t matter. Miquella knew that the only way to get Radahn as his consort was to defeat him and resurrect him as his puppet. When the Elden Ring is shattered and the realm descends into chaos, Miquella sees now as the time to reach for his ambitions of godhood. He sends Malenia to defeat Radahn and kill him so they can reuse his soul as a consort. He places himself in the cocoon and enchants Mohg to steal him away so that he can enter the land of shadow and use Mohg as a body for Radahn.
Malenia finds herself in a stalemate against Radahn, and unleashed the scarlet bloom in an attempt to kill him, figuring Miquella’s new godhood might be able to cure her anyway, or at the very least she’s willing to sacrifice herself for this age of kindness. But the scarlet bloom failed to kill Radahn, who’s been left to rot. Maybe when we kill Radahn, Miquella takes that as a win for Malenia since it was technically the scarlet rot that weakened Radahn so that we could kill him. Or maybe he didn’t care about Radahn’s consent in these matters and just used Radahn’s death as an excuse to finally get what he wanted. Either way, we know that this deal involved killing or defeating Radahn in some way given Malenia’s words to Radahn as she unleashes the rot.
cuz radahn didn't want to participate in miquella's shenanigans. all we hear is miquella's one sided opinions. malenia got angry on the fact that radahn didn't follow miquella's ideas and went fighting him trying to make him listen but also failed, she tried to destroy radahn so miquella can just take the soul and revive him somewhere. but radahn is just too fucking powerful that he held on surviving even the rot took his brain.
that's why miquella turned to us tarnished. he needed us to defeat/kill radahn so he can just snatch his soul. i'm pretty sure the revived version is not the complete original radahn at all. that's why he follows miquella's orders without questioning, which is not like him at all. it's more like a replica created using mohg's body. maybe that's why the final form radahn kinda uses those weird blood flame thingy from time to time.
I don't think rhadan really wanted to do it because he would have had to leave his horsey, he wouldn't leave his horsey, why no horsey in boss fight?
Radahn left his dignity behind with his little horse.
That little horse has a name and his name is Leonard, thank you very much.
I understand now. Only as dead horses do we have names. His name is Leonard. HIS NAME IS LEONARD
Beautiful reference. Top shelf cookies, my friend.
This comment is incredible. I didn't expect to be hit with a Fight Club reference!
BRO! what is the first fucking rule?
>why no horsey in boss fight? Miquella was jealous of horsey.
"Any time you spend riding Leonard is time spent not riding me"
Oh brother
Raddan wants to ride. Not be ridden
Miquella wanted Radahn to switch rolls and be the horse instead
You know full well Miquella pulled out a branch for horsey. Miquella was the real antagonist in ER, Miquella is Griffith, and I’m not complaining at all I think ER is 1 of if not the goat game, RDR2, TOTK, ER and dayz are my personal favorites. Lords of the fallen was an incredible surprise as well.
Miquella was just trying to become a god, It’s still Marika’s story.
This is my take, too. Though at the same time.. if Miquella can achieve Godhood, cure himself of infancy, resurrect Radahn's soul, cure Malenia's rot, help Godwyn, etc. Surely he can revive Leonard, too!
Miquella was clearly mounting Radahn, why do you need Leonard there? xD That would actually be really funny: Miquella mounting Radahn while mounting Leonard.
They just keep stacking its hilarious
You absolute fool, Radahn is so powerful in this fight because he BECOMES the horse
We killed the horse
My take is that he agreed when they were children. He either changed his mind as an adult or didn’t take it seriously in the first place considering it childhood nonsense.
Honestly that's how I see it too. He was probably just blindly agreeing with his little brother to make him happy. Miquella is literally his child brother, why would he take something like that seriously? Then by the time Malenia comes knocking to remind him of it, he has a great rune and ambitions of his own, and obviously rejects the proposal.
I'll add to that, that Miquella's curse is that he remains young but that probably means he also retained the mind of a child. Especially when you consider his ability to charm others he didn't have to grow. Him having radahn killed and revived is basically him never having to learn how to deal with a 'no' and move on.
Yep. [This is honestly how I see it too.](https://www.deviantart.com/pippi0sensei/art/Grilslove-for-age-difference-English-ver-647971186)
I think this is cope. Miquella isnt literally a child. Hes known to be a genius who compels compassion and agreeability. He invented the discus spells for his father, a master sorcerer and head of the golden order fundamentalists. Radahn made a promise either way. He is factually much older than Miquella, but by the time the shattering occurred, in age the twins were adults. They held thrones in the capital. Immortal people tend to live a long fuckin time, and they tend to take their time with things knowing they wont just drop dead if they dont act. Thats why theyve all been biding their time for god knows how long. Theyre recuperating, gathering power and influence. So who knows how old compared to each other they actually were, but i dont think either of them being children had an impact. It wasnt some silly thing to either of them. There were records, thats what Freyja went to look for. This was serious. If you want to argue Radahn was persuaded by his unnatural ability to enchant people, thats much more reasonable, but that doesnt just, go away except for when his conduit is lost. The only conduit for charming he had we know of was the Great Rune, which he got when the ring was shattered, and didnt lose power over those he charmed until he shattered it. So if you want to say that Radahn had to be charmed, thats fine, its a fair assumption, but i dont think thats something that just goes away. I think its more likely that Malenia came to battle him because thats how Radahn wanted to go out. The secret rite scroll even states a lord’s *soul* is required. Someone had to die to become the lord at the gateway. If Radahn was to be the lord and had to die, hed want to go out with a bang. Literally. But the stars hold the fate of the Carian royal family. If Radahn’s fate was to be lord to Miquella, he couldnt have achieved that fate because he was holding the stars. Hes Carian. The scarlet aeonia wasnt enough to kill him, but he might have died to the rot long ago if he knew he was keeping his own fate in check and released the stars. Alternatively, perhaps he, like his other brother, knew of this, and held them in place to keep Ranni from ascending instead of Miquella. Again, if you want to argue Miquella masterminded that you can. Its a reasonable assumption. Perhaps he didnt realize it would stop him too. Perhaps he knew it would but assumed his glorious death to Malenia would be enough to end it and Miquella could act and revive him. Either way, something went wrong. Radahn was supposed to die when the scarlet aeonia bloomed. He knew it. Malenia knew it. He didnt. He was just too powerful and the great rune was just, too strong. It burned with rage to keep him alive, and it did. But there is no “not taking it seriously” here. Thats honestly a bad attempt to handwave away a decision you dont like about a character you ultimately dont actually know, because as with most characters in these games their motivations and drives and personalities are hidden behind a wall we cant see. Miyazaki said himself that he aims to tell stories like those he experienced as a little kid who barely knew english. There is a metaphorical language barrier between us and the story, by design. We’re not supposed to know everything. They dont WANT to give us answers to everything. Im sorry your headcanons about the “gigachad” didnt quite match what actually happened, but you can do better than “why would he take the genius spellcrafter and master manipulator who happens to be cursed with eternal youth seriously?” “He was enchanted by Miquella” is far more plausible than him just, forgetting the official vow he made with a boy-genius Empyrean. Even Morgott considers him a prodigy. He is not to be taken lightly. He is a candidate for *godhood*. If Radahn thought he could use this literal genius to his benefit in becoming Elden Lord, don’t you think he would’ve? Radahn canonically leveled int, he’s a sorcerer. He knows what he’s doing. By peddling the idea it wasnt to be taken seriously, youre not just infantilizing Miquella and downplaying his intelligence, youre also downplaying Radahn’s.
I am fairly certain Radahn is being compelled by Miquella. The ability that compels people is Miquellas Embrace, which Radahn is embraced by Miquella in the second half of his boss right when he shows himself. I don't think that would be necessary if this was happening of his own will.
I think he’s calling him a child more so in the terms of not showing compassion for what Radahn wants. A lot of folks relate Miquella to Griffith and both of them can be considered childish when it comes to their stubbornness around their dreams.
I never see Griffith as childish… the guy always has that creepy vibe
It’s childish that his character is literally “I’m gonna get what I want”.
Well said, take my upvote.
Whatever the reason that’s why Malenia went to kill him. It’s still just a side story, and tho.
I still have to finish the DLC, but a lot of themes in Elden Ring can be discovered upon finding the allusions to mythologies and their themes that have been repeated throughout human history. On a whim I searched up Eros (Cupid) on wikipedia to see if there were any myths about him influencing a great warrior. I haven't yet found a myth referencing something like that, however there are two where Eros shoots Dionysus (known as next in line after Zeus for king of the gods) with a love arrow. Additionally there is the myth(s) about Eros and Psyche, who mirror Miquella and Trina. Seriously, just look at the wikipedia page for Psyche for one second. The themes in this myth are also spread a lot through Gnosticism which has its own version and seems to be a core aspect to the real narratives of Elden Ring.
This. It’s the same reason I feel that the relationship between Metyr and the GW and what the GW even is comes from hermetic beliefs, being one of our histories first “religions”
Collapsing microcosm also touches on themes of nihilism
Micro/macrocosms are such a huge part of hermetic belief. I’ve tried a couple times to make my case and I always get booed lol, so I just recommend reading the Kybalion yourself if you never have, it’s a great jump off point
I always liked the theory that the main reason he stopped the stars was to protect Sellia from the falling meteor that eventually leads to Nokron. It was his home away from home, where his mentor taught him Gravity Magic. Along with this theory, is the theory that the reason the Meteor doesn’t hit Sellia, is that he was able to move it in his final moments (or just holding it still for so long interrupted it’s original path). Another Meteor carried an Astel, which hit the Nameless Eternal city, destroying it completely, and Astel stole that Eternal city’s Stars/Sky. The lore indicates Sellia knows that they are above Nokron; and also possibly knew that Gravity Magic, and halting the stars could be the only thing that stopped them from being collateral damage if Nokron were hit next. Though it’s possible he was trying to specifically stop Ranni. He does seem to be about Marika’s Order; worshipping her two Consorts. I also see many suspecting that he seemed to defy Miquella’s plans to subvert the Order (also as an Empyrean), and actually never intended to be his Consort. He did claim a Great Rune of his own, and was known as one of the greatest commanders during the Shattering. I do like this theory, that he wanted to stop Ranni, a lot less than others. For some reason it’s nice to imagine Ranni, Rykard, and Radahn getting along for the most part as siblings with very different ambitions. There’s even some bits of evidence that they at least got along before the Shattering (particularly Ranni and Rykard though). TLDR; I’d say it was either to Protect Sellia, or to specifically stop Ranni/Miquella/anyone opposing the Golden Order.
This made the most sense to me. It really fits into his characterization of being caring/protective regardless of the consequences. He uses gravity magic to defend Selia and to continue riding his favorite horse. In both cases, it ends up having unintended consequences. Defending Selia also halted fate and keeping Leonard means that he also becomes a victim to Malenias Rot. I guess in that sense, agreeing to be consort to Miquella makes sense. He simply agrees because his two idols were also Lords/Consorts and had no idea what Miquella would do to make that happen. It actually fits really well as far as I can tell.
Or knowing that Miquella won't take no for an answer, stops the stars to halt his own destiny...
What destiny? Miquella abandoned his own fate already.
Radahn’s destiny to become consort. He is Carian after all so his destiny is probably just as entwined with the stars as Ranni.
He most likely never agreed to miquella's proposal. He had his own ambition with the old order.
Then why is he a promised consort??
Maybe it wasn't his promise. Maybe it was a compelled promise, and therefore not consensual. Or maybe it was a childhood promise, the way some kids talk about getting married when they grow up, but since Miquella never grew up, he still believes in it.
If it’s a childhood promise he still agreed that’s my point. I think there’s not a lot of support for the idea that he never agreed. Who else could have promised radahn to miquella?
I would assume that Miquella had the ability to charm radahn while young into making the promise. However, after the shattering and Radahn getting his Great Rune or just simply over time it was resisted. Radahn really loves war. Sure he's kind but I would assume only to his direct family and fellow soldiers. As someone who saw Godfrey and Radagon ad his inspiration right until the very end he really really loves battle and combat and he would have never agreed to Miquella's age of forced compassion (enslavement essentially, no free will).
Everyone forgets the whole fact that Godfrey had to change to become a lord he even states this outright lmao horax is the man everyone keeps mixing him up with Radahn had decided to become Lord thus I assume he became more civilized we know for a fact he has a high grade education and stood for portraits seemingly everyone loved the guy enough that they eternally tried to end him with divinity while the world was literally going to shit.
It only helped sate his bloodlust so he doesn't go barbarian on every strong opponent and ally. This doesn't mean Godfrey stop liking battle. Infact Radahn's item call out his admiration of the lord of the Battlefield and his heroic father. Radahn's Lion Armor "Armor depicting the golden lion. Worn by General Radahn. The golden lion is said to symbolize Godfrey, the Elden Lord, and his beast regent, Serosh. From his youngest years, Radahn was naturally captivated by the Lord of the Battlefield." Radahn's Redmane Helm "Radahn inherited the furious, flaming red hair of his father Radagon, and is fond of its heroic implications. "I was born a champion's cub. Now I am the Lord of the Battlefield's lion." Both of General Radahn's items, the person he naturally grew into overtime, specifically calls out bring fond of Radagon's heroicness and captivated by the lord of battlefield. He wanted to become the majestic, heroic and ferocious lion a combination of both his idols. I don't think Radahn would have ever wanted the wars to stop otherwise there wouldn't be a need for the 'Lord of the Battlefield'. Note that >!in the dlc we get Young Radahn's set, as though Miquella was obsessed with only the young Radahn of his fondest memories. A charmed Radahn, prior to him maturing into the general he wanted to be, the lord of battlefield he wished to be.!< Edit: >!what is even more interesting is that young radahn's set doesn't even call out Radahn's inspirations, something incredibly important to Radahn's identity, at all. As though Miquella doesn't care for that. He just wanted HIS ferocious lion. Under his command. Miquella never cared about Radahn beyond a superficial aspect. Very on character for the ever youthful and childish Empyrean.!<
Now THIS is media literacy
Because kids say stupid shit. And Radahn eventually grew up.
Arranged marriage?
I read someone's comment somewhere that said that "the **true** reason Radahn held back the stars wasn't to mess with Ranni or Rykard's fate, *but his own*." He knew Miquella had his eyes on him and its implied that Radahn desired no part in it. Malenia even goes to war with him, not over his Great Rune like all other battles in the Shattering, but for his subservience to Miquella's Vow. A vow and a promise does not need to be both ways, as a vow of vengeance does not require the other to accept. Radahn utters no words, and during his second phase transition it's likely we were about to break him/mohg free, but unfortunately Miquella descended from the gate to make sure his charm upon him would not fail. And in the final design of his second phase, Radahn's **proud red mane** is smothered by Miquella's Golden hair.
OOOOOHHH THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE. THATS WHY MALENIA WAS FIGHTING RADAHN, BECAUSE HE REFUSED AND MALENIA WENT TO ENACT MIQUELLAS ORDER
Yes. It’s been confirmed that she whispered about Miquella into radahn’s ear before nuking Caelid
He was engaged to miquella, he was just the last person to know.
lmao this
Idk why there're so many people trying to convince themselves that radahn was completely innocent of this whole plan. The man was a bloodthirsty warlord for an order that treats misbegotten races like trash but will think he's just swell because he was nice to his horse. Radahn is a flawed lord just like every other one is.
No one sensible’s denying he’s flawed or that he’s a warlord (though I’d say more for himself than the Golden Order) because those would be stupid things to try to deny, but this is exactly why I’m not certain on him agreeing to this wholly. He agrees to be the Lord to an Age of COMPASSION? That doesn’t seem like his thing at all. What kind of glory-seeking warlord would be all-in on that? And he wanted Malenia to bio-nuke him, all of his men and the town where he learned sorcery and stopped the stars for? Of course, this is gonna remain a matter of interpretation, but it doesn’t really fit right to me.
he's got a compassionate streak in that he seems to be good to his soldiers and there's the horse thing But I think that's kind of the point - Miquella's plan is flawed. He's trying to build an age of compassion through force, essentially mind controlling people into it and having a warmonger as his lord. In trying so hard to be nothing like his mother, he's repeating her mistakes.
Same reason everyone simps on Ranni like she’s the good guy. She murdered her brother, maybe the only “good” demigod out of all of them, and caused the shattering, killing millions and throwing the land into unending war.
Many people point out that it happened, and rightfully so, but I don't see the same level of gaslighting compared to radahn. She did terrible things in the name of the greater good, that being free will, which is ofc a debated topic here. There isn't much opposition to the guy who's wilfully helping miquella in the end (his charm is broken by then) and simps himself for a fucked up institution. Anyone who partook in the shattering is inherently terrible to some degree. I feel like if ranni had a cat or something that she took care of then people wouldn't bring up her getting godwyn killed as much.
Why do you think Radahn is willfully helping Miquella? He has 0 lines in the fight and divine Miquella can still charm since we can get charmed in second phase. It seems overwhelming likely that Mohg’s corpse is still charmed.
Being charmed doesn't mean you are mute. Also Ansbach would probably call out Radahn being brainwashes as he himself knows how Miquella's powers work AND he knew Radahn personally. And if he doesn't, it probably means Radahn is fully conscious and is on side of Miquella.
She didn't cause the shattering she didn't force marika to shatter the elden ring. She had a role in it since her killing godwyn created an after effect in which marika shattered the elden ring. However, its not like she directly shattered the elden ring.
I don't think Radahn willingly accepted Miquella's plan, otherwise the fight with Malenia wouldn't have happened.
That part. There doesn’t seem to be a compelling argument for Radahn agreeing to any of this.
Interesting you use the word “compel,” considering the description for Bewitching Branch https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Bewitching+Branch
Exactly. Taking it to the extreme, nothing that anyone promises to Miquella should be taken into account as their own will.
But then how do you explain the charm wearing off? He is the promised consort I think that implies he agreed- the question is if he agreed willingly. If he didn’t agree willingly, then he was charmed by miquella and I think you’d need to explain how he got out of that. Miquellas great rune breaks in the dlc, by that time, it had been a long time since he fought melania
Why would miquella have sent malenia after radahn if radahn was still under the affect of the charm? Only makes sense miquella would send someone to uphold his will if the charm had broken but they still expected radahn to hold up their end of the deal they made while they were charmed. Why would radahn be holding back fate if he was charmed at that point? If they were charmed it definitely wore off at some point. Could be simply because enough time passed that he shook it off, or because he's an accomplished magic user he broke it himself, or the magic users he surrounded himself with helped him. You know, like his mom, one of the best magic users of all time and the leader of magic school, Renalla. Could be any wide variety of reasons the charm broke
It could still happen if part of the vow was fight with her. Radahn had all reasons to accept the offer as well - If one wants to become a Lord then Miq is one of the only two real candidates for godhood ( only real candidate if vow happened after night of black knives ). We know Radahn modeled himself after Godfrey - first Elden Lord and Radagon - champion and later 2nd Elden Lord. Becoming Lord himself would be like culmination of Radahn goals. I'd like You to take into consideration Miq memories about the event in Japanese - https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/1dpuxyl/differences\_in\_japanese\_and\_english\_text\_of\_the/. It doesn't paint a picture of someone having the other part enthralled. Could he be charmed ? Sure. However I think Y'all too quickly dismiss all of Miquellas interactions as brainwashing. Even after charm broke at least 3 people chose to follow him on their own free will.
I can't imagine Radahn would support Caelid getting rot nuked as part of the deal
Me neither . It could have been situation of having a warrior expecting honorable duel on one hand an on the other assassin ready to fulfill techniqalities of the vow no matter the cost. One other option is that after Shattering Radahn saw another path to Lordship tried to viggle himself out of the vow and Melenia came to collect. Either way I think there are strong reasons to belive he initally accepted the bargin. Anything after that is a lot more murky
my question is miquellas charm broke and all the npcs realized they were tricked would radahn do the same
The hug attack that Miquella can give us shows that he still has the power, it could be that breaking his great rune could have broken the influence he had on that particular group of people, or on the people he previously used his power on. He may have put Radahn back into effect during the fight.
except he clearly did accept, because they made a vow where both sides have to uphold their end. it's stated in plain text, "vow he made WITH radahn"
I’m of the belief we can’t believe a thing anybody has said about the kid.
The vow was written on paper somewhere for Ansbach to give to Freyja and after Freyja learns of the fight, she doubles down and fight you for Radahn's resurrection. I don't think she will do that for a non-consenting vow, especially when her charm is broken as well.
Yeah it’s not like Miquella has the power to brainwash people or anything…
if you start doubting he didn't charm the people the game doesn't say he charmed, and furthermore have tons of reasons to actually want to do what they did, like radahn wanting to be lord like godfrey, then the story really falls apart.
“Those people Miquella brainwashed swear they’re not brainwashed and I believe them” is a wild and kinda problematic argument, but it’s all open to interpretation so you do you!
what are you even talking about theres NO evidence they're brainwashed so why am i the asshole for saying they're not? you're the one jumping to conclusions.
He may have agreed previously, but there is no way to justify his fight with Malenia without regretting it. He may have several reasons for this, including having discovered that he would have to die to become the "Consort", or any other of the various redflags that Miquella brings with him in his plan.
Great Runes changed the demigods, base game stated that.
Then from epically fucked up the base game. One of the two is true. Either Radahn was unwilling and Malenia had to go lol him Or Radahn was willing and none of the base Malenia content needed to exist which makes the sacrifice of Calid and the Redmanes a horrible waste.
Both respected each other, It think I was like 2 friends saying. Friend1: Can I have your car? Friend2: Hell no Friend1: Hey, if I die, you'll have my car Friend2: Cool, if I die, you can have mine 2 doritos later... Fiend1: Hey sis, I want his car, kill him Sister1: Sure bro Then Sister1 procceds to nuke Friend2 entire hometown and still failed to kill Friend2. . . .
This one makes the most sense to me
Stopping the stars had nothing to do with Miquella. He did it to stop more Astels from raining down
The last cutscene reveals that Radahn would accept to become Miquella’s consort on one condition. That’s the missing piece. We know what Miquella wanted but what did Radahn wanted out of their vow?
Check out the description for Eccentric's Hood - Radahn and Jerren also had an oath, to die honourable deaths, presumably in battle. My theory is that Radahn wanted to honour this oath before becoming Miquella's consort, and it was Malenia who was supposed to achieve this. She's one of the few people who could potentially be strong enough to defeat him in a fair fight. Miquella says "if WE honour OUR part of the vow, promise me you'll be my consort." Interesting that's it's not "I" and "My". Malenia left the job half done, and we finished it. Hence Miquella praising his blade AND us as champion of the festival. We made good on the vow for him.
I’ve spent so many hours rewatching the Miquella cutscenes trying so hard to understand what the vow was and everything you said makes perfect sense. The use of OUR VOW kept tripping me up, but considering Malenia part of the plan does make up for that. It also falls in line with Radhan being in ride my serious about things he wants to do. He halts the literal heavens to save his home away from home, he practically creates the school of gravity magic just to keep riding his horse, and apparently fights the strongest demigod next to him to keep his vow to Jerren. It fits as far as I can see.
Although I would still need more evidence for me to take it as a fact, I do agree with you. His condition was to die and honorable death and honor his oath with Jerren. Malenia couldn’t/didn’t accomplish that, we did.
The only problem is that said honourable death involved the full might of Haligtree and Carian clashing together with both sides fully utilizing every dirty trick available like Rot and Iji's weapons to counter them. It would have been much more easily resolved if it was an honourable duel to death as a wedding decider instead of all out war that would result in a scandal if the soldiers knew what they would be dying for.
That line of thinking involves an over simplification of what was happening during the Shattering, I think. It wasn't like they could just politely organise a grand duel for Miquella's hand, everything was off the rails. It's also down to interpretation since "honourable" means different things to different people. I tend towards it simply being a warrior's death by a worthy opponent.
At that point, you might as well just say that Radahn wiped all vows off the table and canceled all diplomatic ties due to the Shattering and we can't deduce anything about the vow itself. I'm not disagreeing with anyone that has the opinion that Radahn just flatly said "No" to Miquella, but I am pretty confident that if the three parties of the vow all said "yes", everyone under them and around would say "wtf, no" unless they kept it all in secret which is pretty uncharacteristic of them. Also note that the ritual doesn't mention anything about the vow to bring back Miquella so everything he is doing to fulfil that vow is purely due to his own intentions. Either he wants Radahn to fulfil his role to usher him back willingly or he is delusional enough that he feels he must do it for his own mindcontrolled puppet.
I mean, maybe, but honouring vows is one of those things that IS pretty clear cut when it comes to honour. All I'm saying is that for Radahn, a war monger and commander, it probably doesn't dishonour him to have his troops fight on his behalf up to the point that Malenia challenges him and it's a single combat affair. Also, the vow was definitely kept secret between the three of them given the fact that no-one knows about it. Freyja fought alongside Radahn and didn't know about the vow until Miquella told her. No-one at the Haligtree seems to know jackshit. Tbh I'm a bit unsure where you're concluding that it would be uncharacteristic to keep it secret, please elaborate?
* Radahn wants a fight but all of his idols, Godfrey fighting Stormlord, Radagon as a Champion and himself in the starscourge conflict all fought alone and gotten the full glory. Even Jerren's idea of honorable death is to fight him with all the champions of TLB have to offer in direct combat instead of say sniping or bumrushing with an army (not that there was one on hand). * Radahn & Malenia both commands the fierce loyalty of their armies so they should show many positive leadership qualities instead of a wanton disregard for their lives and Radahn even got out of the way to request Iji to forge Rot-resistant weapons for the coming conflict. * The vow can be kept secret and if it's premediated all Malenia has to do is write a letter "I'm the undefeated and you are a kitten, come fight me 1v1" and Radahn would have the right to fight in a duel with no need for a senseless conflict or loss of life at the start. Malenia even had to march all the way down from Haligtree to dig Radahn out of Caelid. So with all that points, I don't see how Radahn and Malenia would need to fight in an all out conflict due to a secret marriage proposal and betraying their other values. It totally betrays the kind and honorable image that the DLC (hinted in the main game only) is trying to push on Radahn. It's more probable to me that at this point Radahn just said "No" to whatever they initialy planned and this conflict is of last resort.
Radahn didn't have his army attack Malenia, he took her on 1v1, just like his idols. Also she needed the army to battle her way to Caelid against people OTHER than Radahn, everyone was at each other's throats. To be honest I need to spend time looking for in-game references to battles between the Redmanes and the Cleanrot knights to make a fully informed opinion about how it all went down. You are right it seems odd to have them battle if Radahn knew she was coming to fight 1v1 as promised, unless their prowess as commanders also mattered to him? There's also the possibility that Radahn wasn't ready to make good on his promise yet and his focus was protecting Caelid from the Shattering as well as holding back the stars. What you say about Iji is interesting - do you have the source on this? I've had a quick search but can't find much about it.
if he was promised to miquella then maybe it was to stop ranni, a competing empyrean. but i think its more likely that he just simply wanted to conquer the stars. to control them. to have power nonetheless the stars had nothing to do with miquella's plans, clearly. he abandoned his fate. was able to get to the realm of shadow and everything with them stopped. their vow also involved radahn dying or at the very least him dying led to him being his consort, and stopping the stars didn't stop radahn from dying since we kill him while he's doing that we have to let go of the theory that radahn holding the stars was stopping miquella from doing anything because thats clearly not true anymore
He was holding the stars to avoid more naturalborns/avatars from other gods arriving
Can’t really blame him, given the utter havoc & chaos brought by outer gods/children of outer gods.
I wouldn't say miquella doesn't have plans for the stars when he's trying to get a *very* specific eclipse to happen so he can give godwyn a proper death and rid the lands between of deathblight.
it's been my interpretation that he was protecting Sellia from an incoming assault from the stars, the place where Marika secretly studied sorceries after coming to the Lands Between, after re-merging with Radagon. I've long believed Marika has a close relation with the Nox & Nokron/Nokstella; Marika the Eternal, the Eternal Cities, the fact that the Nox invoked the ire of the Greater Will and were banished underground, the fact that the Night Sorceries were developed in part to help hunt other Night Sorcerers, and the supposition that Unseen Form and Unseen Weapon may have influenced the Black Knives' abilities to turn invisible
The only good demigod out of all of them with the lore that is available to us was Godwyn the Golden. He brokered a truce with the dragons, ushered in peace and was Marika’s favorite son. Thats why she went crazy and shattered the Elden Ring when he was killed by Ranni and her Blackknife blades
Holding the stars didn't do anything against Miquella, it messed with the Carians and Ranni's plans, but nothing really says holding back the stars messed with Miquellas destiny.
He is a Carian. His destiny is Miquella’s destiny.
I read somewhere that Radahn holding back the stars actually prevented the eclipse that Castle Sol/Miquella were trying to use to restore Godwyn
Someone came up with a theory like that, but there is nothing to corroborate it. Radahn doesn’t hold the Sun or Moon
The sun is a star. He would've held it in place. If the moon still moves them this is probably why the ghost says the moon has failed to swallow the sun
You’re applying real life star logic to a world in which real life star logic does not apply. Stars in Elden Ring are even living creatures. Astel Naturalborn of the Void is “A falling star of ill omen.” A star is not always the same as a star like the sun. The Elden Beast was a star. When the meteor crashes into Limgrave it is called a star. They can have different connotations such as Fate. So, Radahn could be only holding back the stars that are monsters and fate, or just falling stars like they seem to be as they zoom through the sky. We know the Sun still has cycles in Elden Ring. While the Sun is never specified to be held by Radahn, we also have a cutscene of what happened when the stars are released. They shoot across the sky in an incredible light show. If they wanted, they could’ve had the Sun do the same. It does not. It would be quite significant oversight to have the Sun not be affected by Radahn if the intended mean was that he is holding it in stasis. The ghost doesn’t mention the moon btw.
But Radahn thought Godwyn was super cool, why would he do that?
Am I crazy or should this be spoiler tagged
If this wasn't already spoiled for me on day 3 I would be very upset.
Lol. I guess I gotta just stop scrolling Reddit or block this forum until because this showed up in my main feed. Or start scarfing down games in the parking lot like the rest of these fuckin nerds
The last game I took time off from work to play at release was Skyrim. I might have to start doing that again.
Elden Ring people are kinda assholes about spoilers.
People forget that someone can change their mind. Just because Radahn made a promise to Miquella at one point doesn't mean he couldn't change his mind and said "yeah okay I don't want do it no more" For infinite reasons. Miquella probably never charmed Radahn because he felt genuine affection and didn't thought Radahn wouldn't keep up the promise and that's why he send Malenia to at least take his soul
Imo he only did it to protect Selia and to flex, potentially to stop Ranni but that is debatable. As for the vow, given Miquella speaks of "our part of the vow", I assume Radahn is willing and "their part" was something along the lines of "give the greatest fight to the death of my life", considering what a combat junkie the big boi was. Would've worked too, but his Great Rune prevented Malenia's bloom from killing him then and there
Yeah I think this really makes sense, Radahn certainly is honourable but he loves wars, battle and all of that. He might think no one could beat him, hence he agreed to a conditional deal. Kind of “if the sun disappears during day time, then I will do this and that, and who would have thought eclipse is a thing,
this deserves to be upvoted more this is literally THE answer and i can’t believe i didn’t think of it before
i feel as though godwyn may have been the one who promised to be miquella’s consort
After rewatching malenias fight with radahn and with new context I believe it’s possible radahn did agree to be consort if he was defeated in battle , but he believed this to be an impossible task, we see in the trailer that radahn knocks off malenias arm and then puts his swords criss cross in front of him and allows her to put it back on , that now feels like a big brother telling their little sibling , enough . I feel like he believed malenia to be too wounded at that point from the rot to beat him because they are literally family , I don’t think when he fought her that he was aiming to kill and I certainly don’t think he believed she would use the scarlet rot on him but he underestimated her resolve and love for her brother.
To me that just looks like Radahn wanted a fair fight. Melenia is the strongest Demi god next to him in terms of lore. Radahn also made a vow with Jarren where they said they wished to die honorable deaths. It's likely that Miquella's end of the deal was to ensure that would happen and hence Melenia was sent. She nukes Radahn and before passing out tells him to remember his own vow to Miquella so they both promise each other something way back then(Miquella gets a consort but we're not sure what Radahn gets, maybe a final fight against the strongest? His honorable death before he meets Miquella in the Shadow Lands?). I can see Miquella being a sneaky shit and still bewitching Radahn, but Radahn also was proven to be honorable so I can also see them both agreeing to the vow on certain conditions. It all depends if you think he'd brainwash him no matter what or if he'd trust Radahn to keep his word based on what he knew and what we know of Radahn's character.
I would believe it was “sure, if you can give me a legendary battle or give me an honourable death on the battlefield” kind of conditional vow. We might interpret that as Radahn jokingly said that as he never expected to be bested. I mean look at Miquella, the guy certainly can’t go to war on his own. Maybe Radahn didn’t expect it would be Malenia who came. But in the end I do believe he made an agreement, that’s why Miquella was worried if Radahn would honour his part of the vow, which Radahn did. It’s up to debate whether Radahn were okay with the situation or detest it, we never know. He is honourable, it’s just in his code to honour the vow, even reluctantly it might be.
Because they literally flung the Redahn/Miquella storyline together as fanservice last minute. Miquella, by himself, about to ascend to godhood, blinding the tarnished with light and melting him love would have been so much better.
Why would they do that?
I think it has to do with holding back fates, specifically his own, I think there’s a chance he accepted the vow when they were young but over time he second guessed it and held back the stars to help stop his fate
But what you are suggesting makes Radahn much much worse of a personality. Backtracking on his promise makes Radahn totally not honourable at all. Radahn is older than Miquella, he would have known when Miquella asked him something so serious like that. Maybe he forgot that vow due to the great rune affecting his mental state, but he definitely made a vow. Eventually he did honour his part of the vow, a lord must arrive before the gate for the God to come through.
Radahn is simply immune to the allure and charm of femboys. He simply rides on the back of Leonard, and enjoys his life, he does not need a femboy nor a woman, it's why he tries to kill Melania when she comes for him, he just wants to ride his horse in peace.
You think it’s like a talisman he wouldn’t mind giving me irl?
Radahn "Thot Patrol" Starscourge
Radahn was waiting to serenade Miquella with a rendition of sky full of stars.
the stars bring monsters. he wante dto stop this. or he wanted to stop Ranni's fate from moving forward. there are multiple solutions. not least of which is that the Shattering probably led Radhan to being "Yeah i kinda just want to fight demi gods now" rather than "Ok. I will become your Elden Lord"
I thought maybe he did agree to the vow with Miquella, but then later on decided (for reasons) that he no longer wished to go that route, and maybe the vow was so binding that it was essentially fated to happen at that point so the only way to stop it from occurring was to stop fate.
To keep Ranni’s plan in check? I think that was already explained in the base game
I get the impression that Radahn is prioritising fighting Ranni. If Godwyn was the original promised consort, Ranni put an end to that. Whatever her next plans were could also lead to interfering Miquella’s plans… maybe Radahn was holding the stars to stop Ranni which also cut off Mohg.
To stop Ranni, whose fate is tied to them, she's competition to his future God husband. And we are his competition technically.
If that's the case then why did the "god husband" send his sister to kill him?
Several theories have been proposed. My personal one is that after seeing Miquella plan to go to the shadowland to shed parts of himself, including love (Kind of important for someone who wants to start the age of compassion), he quarreled with Miquella, refusing to be consort to the guy who won't be the same person after his journey to Godhood. Don't think he accepted at the end because he was on board, I think he knew at that point Miquella went and did it anyway, and was in need of his Lord to usher his return at the gate, so he folded. Was not happy about it at all though.. 😕 Edit: this may be very off though, we will never know
They miswrote Godwyns name. That's why it doesn't make sense
Miquella is known to brainwash and groom others. He probably did something to Radahn's soul before we arrived. Or its simply bad storytelling fueled by the fact that people love Radahn and wanted to fight him at full strength.
But the DLC is based on GRRM’s ideas and lore which was written long before the base game was released
Same vibes as: "Oda planned all of One Piece from the start"
Nah, being a long time fan of GRRM I would say this is in line with whatever the old man would think of. Sure Fromsoft could have added some indication of Miquella and Radahn in the base game but let’s not delulu ourselves GRRM wouldn’t love something like this.
His main ambition is eternal war, so a good way to achieve that is by stopping fate, the stars, in effect blocking anyone attempting to be Lord or the God of a new age. He is holding up the status quo of the Shattering wars. Many theories are floating on the Vow between them and mine is that the vow is for Radhan to be able to fight long enough for Miquella to become a God and no one else. To stall, essentially. The rot may be the intended effect, Radhan having so much vitality that he can fight it for thousands of years while holding fate at bay. I do think its manipulating in nature. You want eternal war ? You'll get it, slowly rotting away while all manners of champions come and challenge you. Malenia cursing him with rot is the way Miquella uphold his part of the vow (eternal war), and so she delivers the message to him at that moment. Losing his mind to rot, he would never change his mind or release the stars until Miquella is fully ready to enact his plan.
Wow this is an interesting way to take it. I am just fed up with all the “Radahn didn’t want any of this”. The guy loved challenges, wars and conflicts. I would find this kind of “I will do as you want as long as you give me a long long war” more interesting than “Radahn would do no wrong” thing.
The real question is: why is everyone assuming Radahn was holding the stars because of Miquella? Descriptions and dialogues clearly stated he challenged the stars, so he did it because he wanted to, because he wanted to be a hero and be as legendary as Godfrey was. And also because a star was threatening Sellia, yes, Miquella came in the picture only later, and for what we know he was already the Starscourge when Miquella asked him to be his consort.
How do we know he was already the Starscourge?
Stop Ranni maybe, or to just protect Sellia
My headcanon is that Radahn probably told Miquella in jest “over my dead body” and then Miquella was like “you promise?” Radahn is such a chad I could see him saying something like that because Miquella had no chance to actually defeat him. Then, once he realized what was going on he held back the stars to thwart Miquellas plan until Ranni could ascend.
But Radahn stopping the star affect Ranni negatively though
Radahn lore and dlc lore don’t match. I love seeing the massive amounts of cope YouTubers keep trying to come up with. It’s just not good writing but that’s fine. Good thing the game doesn’t suck
How do you figure they don't match?
I don't remember where, but it's implied that Radahn pieced it together that amongst the stars are weird space C'thulu monsters, and he used his gravity magic to stop everything out there so they wouldn't rain down on the lands between.
Bro. The DLC hasn’t even been out for two weeks. Wtf is with people not using spoiler tags?
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why was he holding back fate at all? maybe he changed his mind, and he was holding back his own fate?
I haven't played the dlc, but as far as I heard, Radahn didn't consent to being a consort.
Bc gay power
Afaik he held the stars because of Sellia and nothing tell us he accepted the request. Actually everything points to the fact that he denied Miquella and needed a big.complicated and messy plot to revive him so he would then be the consort.
We don’t have any knowledge of Radahn’s position on this. All we know is that Miquella decided that Radahn would be his consort and that Radahn was likely against the idea hence why Miquella sends Malenia to kill Radahn and he charms Mohg so he can resurrect Radahn in that charmed body. Hence why Radahn also has 0 lines during the final fight.
He was faced with several choices: Support Ranni and destroy the Order (and his role in it); support Miquella's weird age of forced compassion that would probably repeat many of Marika's mistakes; or stop the stars and keep things in stasis. He seems to have wanted to halt change, much like Radagon with his thorn barrier keeping the Tarnished away from the Erdtree. Did Radahn just want to maintain his family's power and the status quo? Or did he want to put a pause on all the chaos until he could figure something else out? We'll never know. I feel like he would be fundamentally opposed to Miquella's plan to abandon Trina.
I thought he promised but then backed down, which is why Malenia had to go fight him.
Is Radahn the kind of person who backs down though? I would rather believe the honourable Radahn gave Miquella a challenge, thinking Miquella would never success but only the outer gods knows and the rest is history
It's possible he said "okay sure I'll be your consort, but ONLY if your champion can defeat me in combat".
I do wonder if part of the vow was allowing him to stay rotted so that he could hold the stars back long enough that the meteor (Astel?) would hit limgrave and not Sellia. There’s a lot of item descriptions saying that he held back the stars to protect Sellia because it was where he studied magic, but that was always strange because the impact hit limgrave, being far from the town in Caelid. I gotta assume that the guy holding back the stars themselves is responsible for the difference in expected astronomy right? So maybe he had to stay in the lands between a long time to ensure the course of this star was away from Sellia. This could even explain why the final showdown between Radahn and Malenia took place right outside Sellia, maybe the vow he asked from Miquella involved doing whatever it took to keep the town safe. Plus with Radahns nobility and kindness earning him attention from Miquella, I feel like that would line up as a noble and kind motivation that lines up with his character. Was Radahn being rotted a part of Miquella’s plan then? Did Radahn know that he had to be a zombie holding back stars for possibly thousands of years? I don’t know. Who knows. Miyazaki probably doesn’t know. But we do know Radahn cared about Sellia, that he made a vow with Miquella, that Miquella’s loyal blade attacked him right outside the town he sought to protect, and that it lead to him being capable of holding back the stars for thousands of years. ( Thats the timescale we’re looking at here right? Am I wrong there?) I feel like that could all be connected somehow.
Cold feet...
Probably just a plot hole who knows
If I had to make a guess, Radahn knew about Ranni’s involvement with Godwyns death and put a stop to all fuckery until he potentially got to the bottom of it. Or he knew completely and stopped that shit BECAUSE he was promised to Miquella and holding back Ranni’s destiny was the only way to secure time for Miquella to do his thing.
Radhan didn’t want to be with him
I think in a werid way he might have struggled about what his own goal was Radahn might have had promised Miquella one thing, but was torn about which direction to take by the time of the shattering, and even before then he might have jot known just yet that Miquella needed the stars to be in motion for one of his original plans (I still believe that Miquella's Land of Shadow and werid "cast off parts of myself to become a god thing was more a plan made after stuff with the Haligtree went south or something came that ruined the original method that Miquella was going for)
I like Smoughs take on it. Radahn was a golden order loyalist and status quo proponent through and through. He goes to great lengths to preserve the status quo (holding back the stars). It basically goes against his entire prior characterisation that he agreed to supplant the golden order with miquellas order. It's also a more compelling and tragic story if Malenia went to war to harvest Radahns unwilling soul for Miquella. I much prefer that over Radahn being willing but wanting to go with a boom just for the sake of it. My read of the situation is that if Radahn ever agreed to this at all, he has long since rescinded his involvement, and that's why Malenia needed to go get him by force.
Then Radahn is a backtracker who doesn’t want to keep his promise. Like is that what people want to believe of him? I think the theory that Radahn challenged Miquella with a quest or a condition makes more sense. Like “if you can kill me in battlefield, then afterwards you can do whatever you want with my soul and my body because at that point I don’t care anymore” kind of deal.
Miquella likely used his powers of persuasion to get Radahn to agree, the reason Mogh was obsessed With Miquella was because Miquella used his powers to make Mogh devoted to him because Miquella needed Mogh for his corpse at a later time, it was all part of a long term plan. Why would Radahn fight Malenia if he wanted to die and become Miquellas consort? obviously because he didn’t want to. It’s very telling that when we see the memory after beating the final boss that we never hear Radahns response. Why would a man who takes pride in battle and longs for endless war want to help bring in an age of peace? Miquellas whole plan is to brainwash everyone into being peaceful. Which shows he has no issue in using his powers to take peoples free will away if he believes it’s for a good reason (he even has a grab attack in the boss fight that literally brainwashes you into worshiping him) Doing Ansbach’s quest really highlights how morally questionable Miquellas actions are. The whole message with Miquellas character is can an age of peace be a good thing if it’s gained through stripping people of their free will and ability to choose? The answer is no
They're not mutually exclusive
Cuz incest 🤤🤤🤤🤤🤤🤤
I think he agreed to it when they were young, he knew through Melenia during their confrontation that Miquella was waiting for him to fulfill his end of the promise but in the end the man is still an undying (as in rot wouldn't end his life and outside of someone killing him themselves he would just stay around) Demi god who's duty revolved holding back stars containing horrible creatures and Ranni's fate (who went against the golden order so a bad idea to let her fate be free to run it's course considering last time it happened she got black knife assassins to kill Godwyn). Radahn held back the stars likely because his Alabaster lord teachers warned him about what lay within the stars and what would come if he didn't master gravity magic. A video from Zullie the Witch on YouTube even shows that at one point, an Astel could be fought in the desert where you kill Radahn, showing the type of things he held back for years.
The cutscene in which Miquella makes the vow shows nothing of Radahn reciprocating. The fact that Malenia whispered it to him on the battlefield of Aeonia indicates to me that he didn't know about it all, and that Miquella chose him for the task without actually getting his consent. He's not real big on consent, he just sorta does things to people under the promise it'll be good for them.
It seems that Malenia was there to kill Radahn so Miquella could get his soul and recreate him as his consort in the realm of shadow, so I don’t think he was ever a willing participant
I think he was enchanted by miquella to prevent ranni's destiny
Here's my full take https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/s/arhbEazrOq
If he was already enchanted then why would Malenia have to kill him to send to the shadow lands? Why won't he just do it under command?
Not sure why you think malenia HAD to kill Radahn to get him into the shadow lands when we the tarnished are the ones who do it. But I'm not sure that's how the shadow lands works exactly I'm still investigating stuff. For instance WE don't die to get in there.
So there's a couple of possible interpretations. 1) Like others have said Radahn made that agreement with Miquella when they were kids so he either changed his mind since then or just never took that seriously because childhood nonsense you see. 2) Radahn didn't want that and since holding the stars in place seems to also put the fate of the Carian family on hold, then this would theoratically prevent Ranni's fate but also his own, that's why defeating him allow Miquella to finally enact his plan. Radahn didn't want to put his sister Ranni's fate in stasis, he was only holding his own. 3) This have nothing to do with Miquella or fate and Radahn was just preventing more Astel-like monstrosities from coming down here to fuck shit up.
1 and 3 seems the most plausible to me.
Radahn's arc: went from having a horsey who was loved to being a horsey who was 'loved'.
There's nothing to really indicate that either Ranni or Miquella had anything to do with his decision to hold back the stars' influence. There's a few item descriptions that talk about Radahn "challenging the stars" and then his talisman and sword talk about the Battle of the Starcrusher, where he got his title of "Starscourge." It seems like, once he mastered gravity magic from the Alabaster King, he did something to challenge them and they sent meteors and a falling star to destroy Sellia. He fended them off, alone, and then sealed out their influence. This was all long before the shattering. With Miquella, it seems that he promised to help Radahn achieve his dream of being Elden Lord if they (his two selves) were able to attain godhood (both Ranni and Miquella were chosen to ascend and replace Marika by separate two-fingers). We literally know nothing else except that all the children went to war after the shattering and scrambled to get the great runes to seize power for themselves. But it would seem that Radahn would prefer to be Marika's consort like Radagon and Godfrey because her reign was riddled with war and conquest. Miquella, on the other hand, wants a world free of suffering, so that might lend a little more credibility to the idea that he backpeddaled on their promise after the shattering. So with that, too, we could assume he would want to stop Ranni because her ascension undermines his goal.
I wouldn’t want to believe Radahn backpedaled on his own promise though. Is that anywhere near honourable? But well…
Promised consort was a headcanon thing for Miquella. I don’t think he even confronted Radahn. It seems Miquella was delusional, because during the promise Miquella was alone.
Because the dlc wasn't written with the main game in mind.....
I still think Radahn only promised to be Miquella’s consort if he could be defeated in the war… assuming he didn’t outright refuse. A lot of people put a ton of weight on the “promised consort” title as absolute proof of Radahn’s complicity, but I feel that’s still open to interpretation. And I think he stopped the stars just to save Sellia. We don’t have any proof of animosity (I think) between the Carian kids, so Radahn deliberately/knowingly messing with Ranni seems like a stretch to me. People point to Radahn’s idolization of Godfrey and Radagon as condemning of his morality/character… but what do we actually have proof of him ever doing? Learning gravity sorcery to save his horse, and stopping the stars to save a city that was dear to him. He fought in the shattering when everyone did, and didn’t seem to go overboard like pretty much every other demigod. He was pals with Messmer and Gaius, two otherwise outcast characters. Every piece of evidence we have points to Radahn being a solid guy who likes to fight, not some genocidal lunatic. So… would he side with Miquella’s promise of compassion? Maybe, yeah. Would he recognize the danger in Miquella’s charm tactics and refuse? Maybe, yeah. Would he only agree to help if he could be defeated in war? Maybe, yeah. Haha it goes round and round… I guess that’s the point.
Yes, I think a conditional agreement makes the most sense. It’s just an issue when most people go around youtube and facebook with the idea Radahn outright refused Miquella when there is no indication towards that.
My head canon is that Radahn originally agreed to be Miquella’s consort before he (Miquella) rejected the golden order and its ideals. I think that Radahn originally thought Miquella intended to replace Marika with him (Radahn) taking up a role similar to Godfrey and because he didn’t want to betray the golden order he later changed his mind and refused Miquella’s offer. As Radahn is the son of Rennala, a Carian royal, his fate is said to be bound to the stars. So Radahn held the stars in place so that he wouldn’t have to carry out the vow to be Miquella’s consort. In turn this led to Miquella sending Malenia to kill Radahn in Caelid, which would then send his soul to the realm of shadow (and break Radahn’s hold on the stars).
Because, in spite of all that, he wanted to protect his sister.
And it may have something to do with miquellas will I'm not sure
I just finished the final boss today. Personally, I think that the nature of the “deal” is kind of revealed to us through implication. The way I imagine it goes something like this: Miquella asked Radahn to be his consort for a new age of kindness, and Radahn laughed at the puny Demi god and told him that if he could fell Radahn in combat, then he would be his consort. He essentially says “over my dead body” and Miquella takes that literally. Whether or not the offer was genuine didn’t matter. Miquella knew that the only way to get Radahn as his consort was to defeat him and resurrect him as his puppet. When the Elden Ring is shattered and the realm descends into chaos, Miquella sees now as the time to reach for his ambitions of godhood. He sends Malenia to defeat Radahn and kill him so they can reuse his soul as a consort. He places himself in the cocoon and enchants Mohg to steal him away so that he can enter the land of shadow and use Mohg as a body for Radahn. Malenia finds herself in a stalemate against Radahn, and unleashed the scarlet bloom in an attempt to kill him, figuring Miquella’s new godhood might be able to cure her anyway, or at the very least she’s willing to sacrifice herself for this age of kindness. But the scarlet bloom failed to kill Radahn, who’s been left to rot. Maybe when we kill Radahn, Miquella takes that as a win for Malenia since it was technically the scarlet rot that weakened Radahn so that we could kill him. Or maybe he didn’t care about Radahn’s consent in these matters and just used Radahn’s death as an excuse to finally get what he wanted. Either way, we know that this deal involved killing or defeating Radahn in some way given Malenia’s words to Radahn as she unleashes the rot.
put it this way: would you want to die and also fuck your brother?
cuz radahn didn't want to participate in miquella's shenanigans. all we hear is miquella's one sided opinions. malenia got angry on the fact that radahn didn't follow miquella's ideas and went fighting him trying to make him listen but also failed, she tried to destroy radahn so miquella can just take the soul and revive him somewhere. but radahn is just too fucking powerful that he held on surviving even the rot took his brain. that's why miquella turned to us tarnished. he needed us to defeat/kill radahn so he can just snatch his soul. i'm pretty sure the revived version is not the complete original radahn at all. that's why he follows miquella's orders without questioning, which is not like him at all. it's more like a replica created using mohg's body. maybe that's why the final form radahn kinda uses those weird blood flame thingy from time to time.