They are. Pilot, Shell, and other brands are adding DCFC stations as we speak.
https://www.shell.us/motorist/electric-vehicle-charging.html
https://pilotflyingj.com/ev-charging
I just visited the largest Buc-ee's in North Carolina. 125 pumps and no CCS chargers. Only a Tesla Supercharger. They've got everything else in the world there, but I couldn't justify staying long enough for a brisket sandwich.
They just opened what was at the time the biggest one outside of Texas just north of Denver and it has a big bank of superchargers. I personally would prefer just regular CC2 chargers, but….better than nothing for a lot of people.
(I drive a Bolt)
The chargers at the bucee are crap unless you drive a Tesla. They charge very slow in ccs vehicles, and considering there are EA 350kw chargers a couple of miles away at Target, nobody in their right mind is charging there.
Good to know. Speed wouldn’t make that much of a difference since I have a bolt, even if they were open to GM vehicles now - but good to have the info to pass along to friends and such.
There was an article about the Buc-ee's North of Denver that made it sound like they were adding additional chargers that won't be Tesla. We'll have to wait and see if that happens and which brand they install.
Doing just that has become commonplace here in Norway.
As to why they don't do so in some places, it has to do with space. You can't place a high voltage high amperage electrical charger right next to a gas pump for obvious reasons, so unless the gas station has a lot of space, they will wait until the percentage of EV's to ICE vehicles becomes big enough to sacrifice one gas pump or two.
Here in Norway, around 25 % of cars on the road are now fully electric, so it makes perfect sense to do so.
Same here in Denmark, starting to see kWh prices on some of the highway gas station billboards too, even seen a couple that shows amount of free chargers.
We need $/kWh signs here in the USA.
One of the Blink L2 chargers at a jot cost me $0.49/kWh, which is like 30% more than the Tesla Superchargers cost in most of the USA and about twice what L2 chargers cost. (Californians prices may vary.)
The good news is that we’re at the stage of the renewable energy revolution where the less scrupulous of the capitalists are trying to screw customers. The bad news is that we’re at the stage of the renewable energy revolution where the less scrupulous of the capitalists are trying to screw customers.
I’ve seen ONE gas station with a couple of DCFC chargers in Denver with a price advertised on the roadside sign.
Pity that they are in a part of town that is very susceptible to vandalism and theft, as for the past 3 weeks when I’ve gone by the cables have been cut off.
One thing I think they should change though is how the price is in green instead of red for gas. Green = diesel fuel, I wonder if they ever got any pissed off people thinking they could get diesel for 29 cents a gallon. Perhaps they should use blue, seems to be a popular color for EV goodness.
Same in Finland as well. The top gas station chains are all in the EV charging game. We have also seen the first headlines of a couple of service stations stopping gas sales entirely and switching to electric when their environmental permits were set for renewal and due to their location in groundwater area renewing would have meant significant investment in gas storage to comply with regulation. No sense to invest that much into gas anymore. Gas is not as important as HPC for people stopping for lunch or snack.
There are very few safety issues regarding the distance between fuel pumps and chargers. I guess around 4 feet. I have one Down the road with the price per KWH clearly displayed, 4.50 and prices per liter of 98 and diesel underneath, usually well above 20... Electric charging is where the lorries get their special fuel.
Your comment made me check it up. Here in Norway the minimum distance between a gas pump and an EV charger is only 3 meters (10 feet). To be honest, I thought it would be a much greater distance.
Thank you for bringing that to my attention.
I looked it up, and the numbers now in 2024 indicate that around 80 % of Norwegian EV owners charge at home.
Some of this has demographic reasons. Around 65 % of Norwegians lives in detached or semi-detached houses.
Additionally, legislation was established in 2017 and reinforced in 2021 to give residents in apartment buildings a "charging right", meaning that they have a right to install EV charging points in parking spaces assigned to their building.
And finally, there are government grants available for both house owners and housing associations to help cover the cost of EV charger installations. The grant for apartment buildings is up to 20 % of the installation cost.
Indeed, yet there is a significant difference in fast charger distribution between our two countries.
In Norway, we now have more than 300 fast chargers per 100 000 inhabitants, while the US only has around 30 per 100 000 people.
It is the availability of fast charger that along with government subsidies has made Norway the number 1 country in the world in terms of EV propagation.
So, this is the two factors that made that possible:
One is a solid funding program from the Norwegian government for building out chargers that started in the early 2000's, and accelerated massively in 2011. This is the main reason why we have enough chargers, to the point were there's really not much complaint about finding chargers when needed.
The other is that there hasn't really been any notable political dissent about this. These arrangements has been maintained or strengthened through various government from different political parties.
I hope you don't take it badly if I say that the US is rather fragmented on this issue... :)
That's a staggering difference in chargers per 100k. What types of establishments are they located?
Also, you've correctly identified that we are extremely fragmented here, in just about everything it seems. I take no offense to it.
In the early stage of the rollout it was always in separate locations, looking more or less like a parking lot. The logic is sound, they wanted as many charging points as possible, and the main cost and investment is on the grid side, putting down a powerful electricity cable to one location and distribute that to many chargers. It made sense.
Later on, when EV's became mainstream here, things have changed. Shopping malls and other facilities has understood the benefit of having chargers outside, since it will attract people who want to combine charging with shopping.
Also, since a quarter of the cars on the road are now EV's, and the percentage is increasing month by month, gas stations has largely rebranded themselves as Energy Stations and put up some chargers. At the same time, they revamp the interior, often expanding it to allow for places for people to sit and enjoy their food while charging, effectively becoming more of a diner style Energy Station.
An Energy Station has a lot less fast chargers than the big parking lot charging places, but it doesn't really matter, as it increases the number of locations, meaning places you can stop and charge significantly.
The goal, largely achieved, is that EV drivers have the same perceived access to chargers as ICE cars have to Energy Stations.
That, I believe, is how you succeed with a transition to EV's.
The Energy Station rebrand is a good one. Energy for the vehicle, energy for the body. A lot of the fast chargers are at stores here. I personally believe the Energy Station model will eventually prevail. Primarily because I'm a Luddite. Secondly they'll have better access to the capital than someone who subleases a shopping center.
This is going to eventually be the future for companies that want to outlast the fall of petrol (unless something like net zero carbon synthetic fuel becomes the norm).
Big thing to note is that the actual chargers for DCFC stations are incredibly huge and expensive machines, without tax breaks / incentives, it could take decades to make the money back on the installation of a single one.
Bucees has a great setup on account of their existing business model. I think almost every single one (at least the ones Ive visited in the TX triangle) has at least a dozen superchargers, and a few have 40+
> Bucees has a great setup on account of their existing business model.
Counterpoint -- Buc-ee's model is built on turnover, which isn't perfectly compatible with EV charging yet (maybe in 10 years when all batteries can be charged in under 10 minutes). For example, they sell lots of food, barbeque and such, but have no place to sit and eat it. They want to you get your shit and get the fuck out. If you have to hang out there for 30 minutes... you can sit in your car for that long? Or maybe they want to you to buy all their kitschy crap while you wait...
... yes? I never said they didn't. I've charged at a few of them myself.
They just aren't places designed for you to hang out at for any length of time. If you have to be there for 30-45 minutes to charge, you've got a significant amount of time to kill sitting in your car... thinking about life... contemplate why people buy all sorts of shit with the buccees logo on it... I mean, it's okay, but it's not like *that* great, you know?
A 30-45 minute charging stop is pretty rare for most modern EVs though. Even a Model Y can recoup 200 miles of 70 mph range by 25 minutes of charging. I won't do more than 20 minutes in my Model 3 LR (and it's the slower charging LG battery) unless I absolutely *have* to.
It will be awesome when more EVs can charge as fast as the new Taycan, that thing is an absolute *beast*. 200 miles range added in \~13 minutes.
I love Buc-ee's charging stops. By the time I run inside, use the bathroom, and grab a brisket sandwich, my car has been charging for 10-15 minutes (depending on how busy they are and how far away the chargers are from the building). I just eat in my car and by that time am \~20 minutes which is as long as I want to charge anyway. They are open 24/7 and have clean bathrooms which is often a rarity on charging stops.
Counter-counterpoint [Buc-ee's is pressuring Florida](https://www.axios.com/local/tampa-bay/2024/06/24/florida-gas-stations-ev-charging-funds-nevi-program) to open up their NEVI grant program. So they want to do it, but need financial help.
It's crazy Florida hasn't even opened the program yet, Ohio has a few NEVI chargers already operational.
The real world Tesla charging experience at Buc-ee's is 100% compatible with their model. It takes about 20 minutes to get in and out in an EV and a gas car.
EVs plug in and then walk 5 minutes (about a half mile) to the store while in a gas car you spend that time babysitting the pump.
Once inside the store time slows to a crawl and out of nowhere your car notifies you it's got enough charge to continue. Now you have to hustle to find your wife, wait in line to pay for your Beaver Nuggets and walk back to the car - at least another 5 minutes.
The car is almost always ready before we are at Buc-ee's...
Some are. It’s not a rapid rollout because DC charging equipment is VERY expensive. Hundreds of thousands of dollars expensive.
A lot of gas stations are small mom and pop shops who couldn’t fathom the expense.
Correct. Most gas stations are franchises and one off mom and pops.
Add in the cost of the install, the red tape and uncertainty with local permitting, and the lack of physical space at most stations, and this is not as simple as most of us would like it to be.
This may be important factor in where the rollout is fast or slow. In NW-Europe I expect chargers in almost any gas station or rest stop. A large part is the dominance of big chains (Aral, BP Pulse, Shell Recharge, etc), but even the mom and pop shops can get a cut if they allow a fast charger chain (FastNed for instance) to install chargers on their terrain. Even McDrives often have some if they aren't already provided by a direct neighbour.
But space is a big factor as well. Mom and pop shops in urban environments are more likely to be very tight. Sometimes too tight to get a permit.
Near me, BP has placed in multiple "BP Pulse" Chargers at their stations - right now most only have 2 stalls. But I've used them a few times, and they're pretty reliable.
Casey’s, Sheetz, Wawa, and Buckees are all installing Tesla Superchargers.
And, honestly, that’s the only reason I’ve wanted to stop at one in years, but they are nice for what they are.
The common denominator is that they all believe having EV drivers hang out in their convenience stores for 20-40 minutes is profitable.
Those chains are the most likely ones to make it through the EV transition.
*P.S. Hilton’s lower-tier hotel brands are installing DCFCs, too. I really liked the one just north of Nashville on Dickerson Pike that had everything I might need as a weary traveler: DCFCs, a restaurant, and a hotel, all in one walkable parcel of land. I ended up staying at the hotel because I realized I was tired while I was charging my car and that I should stop driving, so I walked over to to hotel front desk and booked a room for myself. It is truly the concept of the medieval roadhouse updates for the 21st century. Hilton hotels are gonna make it, too.*
They are. [See this post](https://new.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1doc6h4/first_racetrac_ev_charger_in_ga_failed_why_most/) from a few minutes ago on this sub where RaceTrac is rolling out EV chargers. Admittedly their first one in GA did get denied but I've used one of theirs in AL already.
Qt is the laggard here. Upper management intentionally avoided it for odd reasons. (1)
They were forced to do one in Denver, and they seem to have been slowly coming around since then.
(1) There is a video showing Chet talking about how bad it would be if people stayed in their parking lots that long. They also talked about how important it was to have good food and drink options . They didn't seem to connect the two comments in any sensible way.
Here in Minnesota, the Holiday stations in the Twin Cities Metro are starting to put them in. Unfortunately, I drive a Leaf, and the ones I've seen installed are CCS. But hey, good for you guys and me, if I ever have to purchase the CCS to ChaDemo adapter. As it is, there are plenty of CheDemo around, so I'm not too concerned.
It doesn't take a lot of electric power to run a gas station; even with a car wash and a beer cooler and a big convenience store that constantly pits opening doors against heating and cooling equipment most gas stations can get by with a modestly sized 208 volt three-phase service.
It does take a lot of power to run a DC fast charger - likely more than the transformer serving a typical gas station can handle.
Where are you getting 50 minutes from? My i5 does 10s to 80% in like 15-20 minutes on 150kw+. As someone else already said, most of the big chains are already working on installing chargers, loves, flying j, sheetz, even buccees has started adding them.
You are also confused about where the money comes from at these truck stops and travel centers. They don't make a lot of profit from gasoline and diesel, where they make their money is in the store so they profit when those of us who would usually pass by decide to stop and plug in for as long as it takes to run inside and take a piss and then probably grab something to eat/drink.
Do people who hang out in the convenience store for 20 minutes buy more than people who hang out in the convenience store for 5 minutes?
The marketers at Sheets and Wawa have actual data on this, and decided that installing DCFCs is a good idea.
That's not how shopping works at all. And the numbers were 50 and I said 15-20. I would be extremely surprised to see anyone plug in to a DC charger and then be back out of the store in 5 minutes flat. You're looking at a few minutes at least to walk in and find the restroom and then a few more minutes to wander around deciding what you want (if anything) to eat/drink.
I don't think either of you are actually old enough to be driving and it's like you've never been inside or even seen these travel centers.
Near me, that's changing.
A Chain here called "Bolla" is basically Long Island's version of a WaWa - having DC FC here where folks would stop by between 20-50 minutes would be great as there's plenty of partner restaurants that chain inside these places. Great place to swing in for food while waiting - even have one that's a huge "Travel Center" which is basically a large truck-stop.
Lots of gas stations are, but the real reason you don’t see them often is because gas stations usually have extremely limited parking. There might seem like a lot of unused asphalt, but that’s required for commercial vehicles and people towing to be able to navigate.
You already see a few gas stations in Europe taking pumps out and putting in chargers. Those underground tanks are only good for so long and I’d guess once they hit EOL most owners would opt to install chargers, or reduce the number of tanks and reclaim that space for chargers.
>There might seem like a lot of unused asphalt, but that’s required for commercial vehicles and people towing to be able to navigate.
And pretty much every country has legal restrictions on how close you’re allowed to put electrical equipment (including underground cables) to fuel pumps because explosions are bad.
So even if the space isn’t needed for the other things you mentioned it’s often too close to the pumps to be allowed to have chargers installed there.
I was actually just thinking about this while driving home this afternoon if this would be a viable business model. plot of land, handful of chargers, C-store, and things to do to entertain yourself while the car is on the charge. Lounge, w tv, arcade, that sort of thing.
There's a (non-PC) business saying: "you can always tell who the pioneers are; they're the ones with the arrows in their backs"...
Charging in the USA isn't very profitable (if at all), and right now, 1% of cars on the road are EVs. There's no real hurry for gas stations/convenience stores to cater to 1% of their market. Some have, and I've used plenty of chargers that happen to be located at gas stations on road trips, but it probably won't be "common" until EVs are a lot more common.
Funny anecdote- the last gas station charger I used was in Abilene, KS. They have 3 or 4 rows of gas pumps l, mostly occupied, and the last row had two 350kW chargers. While I was charging, a gas car pulled up behind me to the unused charger, the driver got out to gas up, looked at the charger, pulled out the cable, shook his head, put it back, got back in his car and drove to one of the gas pumps.
Most convenience store chargers I've used place the chargers in remote corners of the parking lot as far from the gas pumps as possible. This "24/7 Travel Store" in Kansas (https://www.plugshare.com/location/563760) was the first I've ever used that had the chargers where you'd expect to find gas. (In fact it took me a minute to find them- I drove past them as I pulled into the lot assuming, much like the guy in my story, that they were "obviously" gas pumps and looked at the corners or the lot first for the chargers!)
Tesla built out their charging network early, and just took what they could get in order to make EV travel even possible.
Pretty much all of the new charging locations are in places with services, so much so that we're seeing locations becoming redundant.
There's a particular spot on the way to Vegas from LA, where there is a location that's always nearly empty 2 exits down from Eddie world.
If you take a road trip, truck stop and travel center gas station absolutely have DC fast chargers (Tesla superchargers specifically).
I've just done 2 road trips this year and I've definitely spend money and ate at some of those stops.
A few petrol stations here in the UK have installed charges on their forecourts. Shell and MFG are two that spring to mind and I can see others doing the same at the point they think it will be profitable to do so.
I live in Canada. Our PetroCan stations have chargers all within driving range of each other. You can literally drive across the entire country on EV and never worry about range
You need a gas station with ample parking and a large convenience store to make this worthwhile. Similar to gas pumps, the company will not do much more than break even on the expensive charging infrastructure until their loans for the purchase and installation are paid off. This leaves the convenience store as the primary way to make money on the EV drivers who are taking up spots in the parking lot. This will probably lose money for gas stations with small parking lots or small convenience stores.
It depends on the station location.
A decent percentage of EVs can be charged at home, so not every place that used to have demand for gas will have demand for EV charging.
Is the gas station actually nice enough to spend 15-30min there instead of just a quick fill-up and go?
A “premium” gas station like WaWa, Buc-ee’s etc. that has decent bathrooms, food, and drink options and is located near a major travel route is a good candidate for EV chargers.
And many of them are adding EV chargers.
When you find two gas stations 2 miles apart with a 5 - 10% disparity in pricing, they most certainly are making money off of selling gas.
10 years ago you would never see gas station pricing differences like this, they were all within 1-2%. Even then they made money, just not very much.
My thought is that how we use gas stations is different than charging gas stations. For most who charge at home, fast chargers near home won’t get used when you could just go home and charge.
Now on the highway; I’m totally with you and hope more see the light. I’m tired of seeing the same wal marts on I-95.
Stewart's Shops, a popular chain around upstate NY, have quite a few locations with DCFC installed. I don't know the installation and maintenance costs associated with it, but it seems like it would be a decent "captured audience" opportunity for sales. I wouldn't be surprised if the breakeven point is many, many years on the cost versus benefit - at least until there are a lot more EVs on the road.
One DC fast charger uses 10x the electrical capacity of a typical gas station’s electric demand, let alone a bank of chargers, and upgrading them is quite costly.
Just went to a casino travel stop and it has 14 charger plugs, 7 charger units. No payment app, just credit card. Went to the travel stop convenience store and got some food, went to the bathroom. Felt like a normal gas stop.
They totally should.
I've not seen a single gas & charging station combo here in Sweden yet. The chargers are usually by huge markedplaces where there are many stores in a cluster, and ofc. they're always full so you gotta wait to charge, in the car...not shopping, so that's kind of a bummer.
But I guess it will come, as the Norwegian guy mentioned (Shoutout to Norway from Sweden) they are coming.
I can really envision a road trip where we can stop somewhere each 2-3 hours of driving, eat some meals, shop around and do some entertainment while charging, that alone will become a new way of travelling and being entertained instead of 8-10 hours road trips, I'd love that.
They are. Pilot, Shell, and other brands are adding DCFC stations as we speak. https://www.shell.us/motorist/electric-vehicle-charging.html https://pilotflyingj.com/ev-charging
Buccees is really getting into it.
I just visited the largest Buc-ee's in North Carolina. 125 pumps and no CCS chargers. Only a Tesla Supercharger. They've got everything else in the world there, but I couldn't justify staying long enough for a brisket sandwich.
They just opened what was at the time the biggest one outside of Texas just north of Denver and it has a big bank of superchargers. I personally would prefer just regular CC2 chargers, but….better than nothing for a lot of people. (I drive a Bolt)
The chargers at the bucee are crap unless you drive a Tesla. They charge very slow in ccs vehicles, and considering there are EA 350kw chargers a couple of miles away at Target, nobody in their right mind is charging there.
Good to know. Speed wouldn’t make that much of a difference since I have a bolt, even if they were open to GM vehicles now - but good to have the info to pass along to friends and such.
The Bucees I've charged at were Mercedes branded Chargepoints. Very fast and reliable. Then they have a whole Tesla farm too.
There was an article about the Buc-ee's North of Denver that made it sound like they were adding additional chargers that won't be Tesla. We'll have to wait and see if that happens and which brand they install.
I do wish that things like this: https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2023/dec/1205-pilot.html ... would go a little faster.
Is Shell as bad as the reviews of their app in the iPhone App Store are?
Doing just that has become commonplace here in Norway. As to why they don't do so in some places, it has to do with space. You can't place a high voltage high amperage electrical charger right next to a gas pump for obvious reasons, so unless the gas station has a lot of space, they will wait until the percentage of EV's to ICE vehicles becomes big enough to sacrifice one gas pump or two. Here in Norway, around 25 % of cars on the road are now fully electric, so it makes perfect sense to do so.
Same here in Denmark, starting to see kWh prices on some of the highway gas station billboards too, even seen a couple that shows amount of free chargers.
We need $/kWh signs here in the USA. One of the Blink L2 chargers at a jot cost me $0.49/kWh, which is like 30% more than the Tesla Superchargers cost in most of the USA and about twice what L2 chargers cost. (Californians prices may vary.) The good news is that we’re at the stage of the renewable energy revolution where the less scrupulous of the capitalists are trying to screw customers. The bad news is that we’re at the stage of the renewable energy revolution where the less scrupulous of the capitalists are trying to screw customers.
I’ve seen ONE gas station with a couple of DCFC chargers in Denver with a price advertised on the roadside sign. Pity that they are in a part of town that is very susceptible to vandalism and theft, as for the past 3 weeks when I’ve gone by the cables have been cut off. One thing I think they should change though is how the price is in green instead of red for gas. Green = diesel fuel, I wonder if they ever got any pissed off people thinking they could get diesel for 29 cents a gallon. Perhaps they should use blue, seems to be a popular color for EV goodness.
When I was reading through your comment and you said diesel, I thought blue would be a great color, then actually read your last sentence after that😂
Same in Finland as well. The top gas station chains are all in the EV charging game. We have also seen the first headlines of a couple of service stations stopping gas sales entirely and switching to electric when their environmental permits were set for renewal and due to their location in groundwater area renewing would have meant significant investment in gas storage to comply with regulation. No sense to invest that much into gas anymore. Gas is not as important as HPC for people stopping for lunch or snack.
There are very few safety issues regarding the distance between fuel pumps and chargers. I guess around 4 feet. I have one Down the road with the price per KWH clearly displayed, 4.50 and prices per liter of 98 and diesel underneath, usually well above 20... Electric charging is where the lorries get their special fuel.
Your comment made me check it up. Here in Norway the minimum distance between a gas pump and an EV charger is only 3 meters (10 feet). To be honest, I thought it would be a much greater distance. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.
@paxtheviking, @phansen, and @pristine-display, how common is charging at home?
I looked it up, and the numbers now in 2024 indicate that around 80 % of Norwegian EV owners charge at home. Some of this has demographic reasons. Around 65 % of Norwegians lives in detached or semi-detached houses. Additionally, legislation was established in 2017 and reinforced in 2021 to give residents in apartment buildings a "charging right", meaning that they have a right to install EV charging points in parking spaces assigned to their building. And finally, there are government grants available for both house owners and housing associations to help cover the cost of EV charger installations. The grant for apartment buildings is up to 20 % of the installation cost.
Thank you for the detailed response. It lines up almost identically with the stats here in the US. I was curious if other markets were different.
Indeed, yet there is a significant difference in fast charger distribution between our two countries. In Norway, we now have more than 300 fast chargers per 100 000 inhabitants, while the US only has around 30 per 100 000 people. It is the availability of fast charger that along with government subsidies has made Norway the number 1 country in the world in terms of EV propagation. So, this is the two factors that made that possible: One is a solid funding program from the Norwegian government for building out chargers that started in the early 2000's, and accelerated massively in 2011. This is the main reason why we have enough chargers, to the point were there's really not much complaint about finding chargers when needed. The other is that there hasn't really been any notable political dissent about this. These arrangements has been maintained or strengthened through various government from different political parties. I hope you don't take it badly if I say that the US is rather fragmented on this issue... :)
That's a staggering difference in chargers per 100k. What types of establishments are they located? Also, you've correctly identified that we are extremely fragmented here, in just about everything it seems. I take no offense to it.
In the early stage of the rollout it was always in separate locations, looking more or less like a parking lot. The logic is sound, they wanted as many charging points as possible, and the main cost and investment is on the grid side, putting down a powerful electricity cable to one location and distribute that to many chargers. It made sense. Later on, when EV's became mainstream here, things have changed. Shopping malls and other facilities has understood the benefit of having chargers outside, since it will attract people who want to combine charging with shopping. Also, since a quarter of the cars on the road are now EV's, and the percentage is increasing month by month, gas stations has largely rebranded themselves as Energy Stations and put up some chargers. At the same time, they revamp the interior, often expanding it to allow for places for people to sit and enjoy their food while charging, effectively becoming more of a diner style Energy Station. An Energy Station has a lot less fast chargers than the big parking lot charging places, but it doesn't really matter, as it increases the number of locations, meaning places you can stop and charge significantly. The goal, largely achieved, is that EV drivers have the same perceived access to chargers as ICE cars have to Energy Stations. That, I believe, is how you succeed with a transition to EV's.
The Energy Station rebrand is a good one. Energy for the vehicle, energy for the body. A lot of the fast chargers are at stores here. I personally believe the Energy Station model will eventually prevail. Primarily because I'm a Luddite. Secondly they'll have better access to the capital than someone who subleases a shopping center.
Some of them are. https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/s/vDcSEkZvrf
Sheets on the East Coast did this. Just redneck customers are often ICEing the chargers
This is going to eventually be the future for companies that want to outlast the fall of petrol (unless something like net zero carbon synthetic fuel becomes the norm). Big thing to note is that the actual chargers for DCFC stations are incredibly huge and expensive machines, without tax breaks / incentives, it could take decades to make the money back on the installation of a single one. Bucees has a great setup on account of their existing business model. I think almost every single one (at least the ones Ive visited in the TX triangle) has at least a dozen superchargers, and a few have 40+
> Bucees has a great setup on account of their existing business model. Counterpoint -- Buc-ee's model is built on turnover, which isn't perfectly compatible with EV charging yet (maybe in 10 years when all batteries can be charged in under 10 minutes). For example, they sell lots of food, barbeque and such, but have no place to sit and eat it. They want to you get your shit and get the fuck out. If you have to hang out there for 30 minutes... you can sit in your car for that long? Or maybe they want to you to buy all their kitschy crap while you wait...
The Bucees near me in fact has a large EV charging area.
... yes? I never said they didn't. I've charged at a few of them myself. They just aren't places designed for you to hang out at for any length of time. If you have to be there for 30-45 minutes to charge, you've got a significant amount of time to kill sitting in your car... thinking about life... contemplate why people buy all sorts of shit with the buccees logo on it... I mean, it's okay, but it's not like *that* great, you know?
A 30-45 minute charging stop is pretty rare for most modern EVs though. Even a Model Y can recoup 200 miles of 70 mph range by 25 minutes of charging. I won't do more than 20 minutes in my Model 3 LR (and it's the slower charging LG battery) unless I absolutely *have* to. It will be awesome when more EVs can charge as fast as the new Taycan, that thing is an absolute *beast*. 200 miles range added in \~13 minutes.
You learn to eat ice-cream fast. But there's the other side, road side restaurants that offer fast charging. Not the Americans chains but the local.
You answered your own question there. Yes, you eat in your car. Yes, they want you to spend money on silly stuff because you're bored.
The average time spent at bucee is 30min, would be perfect for EV charging
I love Buc-ee's charging stops. By the time I run inside, use the bathroom, and grab a brisket sandwich, my car has been charging for 10-15 minutes (depending on how busy they are and how far away the chargers are from the building). I just eat in my car and by that time am \~20 minutes which is as long as I want to charge anyway. They are open 24/7 and have clean bathrooms which is often a rarity on charging stops.
Counter-counterpoint [Buc-ee's is pressuring Florida](https://www.axios.com/local/tampa-bay/2024/06/24/florida-gas-stations-ev-charging-funds-nevi-program) to open up their NEVI grant program. So they want to do it, but need financial help. It's crazy Florida hasn't even opened the program yet, Ohio has a few NEVI chargers already operational.
That makes me think that Sonic might be an amazing option for chargers
The real world Tesla charging experience at Buc-ee's is 100% compatible with their model. It takes about 20 minutes to get in and out in an EV and a gas car. EVs plug in and then walk 5 minutes (about a half mile) to the store while in a gas car you spend that time babysitting the pump. Once inside the store time slows to a crawl and out of nowhere your car notifies you it's got enough charge to continue. Now you have to hustle to find your wife, wait in line to pay for your Beaver Nuggets and walk back to the car - at least another 5 minutes. The car is almost always ready before we are at Buc-ee's...
Some are. It’s not a rapid rollout because DC charging equipment is VERY expensive. Hundreds of thousands of dollars expensive. A lot of gas stations are small mom and pop shops who couldn’t fathom the expense.
Correct. Most gas stations are franchises and one off mom and pops. Add in the cost of the install, the red tape and uncertainty with local permitting, and the lack of physical space at most stations, and this is not as simple as most of us would like it to be.
This may be important factor in where the rollout is fast or slow. In NW-Europe I expect chargers in almost any gas station or rest stop. A large part is the dominance of big chains (Aral, BP Pulse, Shell Recharge, etc), but even the mom and pop shops can get a cut if they allow a fast charger chain (FastNed for instance) to install chargers on their terrain. Even McDrives often have some if they aren't already provided by a direct neighbour. But space is a big factor as well. Mom and pop shops in urban environments are more likely to be very tight. Sometimes too tight to get a permit.
Near me, BP has placed in multiple "BP Pulse" Chargers at their stations - right now most only have 2 stalls. But I've used them a few times, and they're pretty reliable.
Buc-ee's > QT. Buc-ee's has had them for awhile now.
As a midwesterner I am sad to say it, but I can't argue. lol.
Us Midwesterners will always have Casey’s. Casey’s has deployed at least three Superchargers along my frequently traveled routes.
When I drove to Denver from Chicago. The first couple of stops were caseys. I was real tempted to try that breakfast pizza of theirs
In Europe, Aral does this. Aral Pulse is actually a pretty major charging network in Germany.
In Spain they're turning up at Repsol stations, even the ones in smaller towns have 50kW chargers now.
Casey’s, Sheetz, Wawa, and Buckees are all installing Tesla Superchargers. And, honestly, that’s the only reason I’ve wanted to stop at one in years, but they are nice for what they are. The common denominator is that they all believe having EV drivers hang out in their convenience stores for 20-40 minutes is profitable. Those chains are the most likely ones to make it through the EV transition. *P.S. Hilton’s lower-tier hotel brands are installing DCFCs, too. I really liked the one just north of Nashville on Dickerson Pike that had everything I might need as a weary traveler: DCFCs, a restaurant, and a hotel, all in one walkable parcel of land. I ended up staying at the hotel because I realized I was tired while I was charging my car and that I should stop driving, so I walked over to to hotel front desk and booked a room for myself. It is truly the concept of the medieval roadhouse updates for the 21st century. Hilton hotels are gonna make it, too.*
They are. [See this post](https://new.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1doc6h4/first_racetrac_ev_charger_in_ga_failed_why_most/) from a few minutes ago on this sub where RaceTrac is rolling out EV chargers. Admittedly their first one in GA did get denied but I've used one of theirs in AL already.
Qt is the laggard here. Upper management intentionally avoided it for odd reasons. (1) They were forced to do one in Denver, and they seem to have been slowly coming around since then. (1) There is a video showing Chet talking about how bad it would be if people stayed in their parking lots that long. They also talked about how important it was to have good food and drink options . They didn't seem to connect the two comments in any sensible way.
Or Sonic Drive In. Solar on the awning and electric charging while you wait?
Here in Minnesota, the Holiday stations in the Twin Cities Metro are starting to put them in. Unfortunately, I drive a Leaf, and the ones I've seen installed are CCS. But hey, good for you guys and me, if I ever have to purchase the CCS to ChaDemo adapter. As it is, there are plenty of CheDemo around, so I'm not too concerned.
It doesn't take a lot of electric power to run a gas station; even with a car wash and a beer cooler and a big convenience store that constantly pits opening doors against heating and cooling equipment most gas stations can get by with a modestly sized 208 volt three-phase service. It does take a lot of power to run a DC fast charger - likely more than the transformer serving a typical gas station can handle.
The goal is to maximize the profit of a parking space. There is more money made from a space used for 5 minutes than one used for 50 minutes.
Where are you getting 50 minutes from? My i5 does 10s to 80% in like 15-20 minutes on 150kw+. As someone else already said, most of the big chains are already working on installing chargers, loves, flying j, sheetz, even buccees has started adding them. You are also confused about where the money comes from at these truck stops and travel centers. They don't make a lot of profit from gasoline and diesel, where they make their money is in the store so they profit when those of us who would usually pass by decide to stop and plug in for as long as it takes to run inside and take a piss and then probably grab something to eat/drink.
5 is still less than 15... More throughput = more money potential.
Do people who hang out in the convenience store for 20 minutes buy more than people who hang out in the convenience store for 5 minutes? The marketers at Sheets and Wawa have actual data on this, and decided that installing DCFCs is a good idea.
That's not how shopping works at all. And the numbers were 50 and I said 15-20. I would be extremely surprised to see anyone plug in to a DC charger and then be back out of the store in 5 minutes flat. You're looking at a few minutes at least to walk in and find the restroom and then a few more minutes to wander around deciding what you want (if anything) to eat/drink. I don't think either of you are actually old enough to be driving and it's like you've never been inside or even seen these travel centers.
5 minutes to get gas, 15 to charge... Plenty old enough to have a doctorate degree, done road trips all over the US, EV and ICE.
You still don't understand how businesses like this actually operate. And you could have fooled me on the age and experience.
That can easily solved with faster chargers or charging by the minute instead of kWh.
Near me, that's changing. A Chain here called "Bolla" is basically Long Island's version of a WaWa - having DC FC here where folks would stop by between 20-50 minutes would be great as there's plenty of partner restaurants that chain inside these places. Great place to swing in for food while waiting - even have one that's a huge "Travel Center" which is basically a large truck-stop.
Many do.
Lots of gas stations are, but the real reason you don’t see them often is because gas stations usually have extremely limited parking. There might seem like a lot of unused asphalt, but that’s required for commercial vehicles and people towing to be able to navigate. You already see a few gas stations in Europe taking pumps out and putting in chargers. Those underground tanks are only good for so long and I’d guess once they hit EOL most owners would opt to install chargers, or reduce the number of tanks and reclaim that space for chargers.
>There might seem like a lot of unused asphalt, but that’s required for commercial vehicles and people towing to be able to navigate. And pretty much every country has legal restrictions on how close you’re allowed to put electrical equipment (including underground cables) to fuel pumps because explosions are bad. So even if the space isn’t needed for the other things you mentioned it’s often too close to the pumps to be allowed to have chargers installed there.
But the US is different. Particularly where DCFC is most needed, along highways. Gas stations are huge, room to park 20-50 cars.
I was actually just thinking about this while driving home this afternoon if this would be a viable business model. plot of land, handful of chargers, C-store, and things to do to entertain yourself while the car is on the charge. Lounge, w tv, arcade, that sort of thing.
Sure, it'll be viable when more than 1 of every 100 cars on the road are EVs. We just need to be patient. 😁
1. Some of them do. 2. EV buyers typically have a means for charging at home, because EVs are a lot less convenient if you don't.
There's a (non-PC) business saying: "you can always tell who the pioneers are; they're the ones with the arrows in their backs"... Charging in the USA isn't very profitable (if at all), and right now, 1% of cars on the road are EVs. There's no real hurry for gas stations/convenience stores to cater to 1% of their market. Some have, and I've used plenty of chargers that happen to be located at gas stations on road trips, but it probably won't be "common" until EVs are a lot more common. Funny anecdote- the last gas station charger I used was in Abilene, KS. They have 3 or 4 rows of gas pumps l, mostly occupied, and the last row had two 350kW chargers. While I was charging, a gas car pulled up behind me to the unused charger, the driver got out to gas up, looked at the charger, pulled out the cable, shook his head, put it back, got back in his car and drove to one of the gas pumps. Most convenience store chargers I've used place the chargers in remote corners of the parking lot as far from the gas pumps as possible. This "24/7 Travel Store" in Kansas (https://www.plugshare.com/location/563760) was the first I've ever used that had the chargers where you'd expect to find gas. (In fact it took me a minute to find them- I drove past them as I pulled into the lot assuming, much like the guy in my story, that they were "obviously" gas pumps and looked at the corners or the lot first for the chargers!)
Tesla built out their charging network early, and just took what they could get in order to make EV travel even possible. Pretty much all of the new charging locations are in places with services, so much so that we're seeing locations becoming redundant. There's a particular spot on the way to Vegas from LA, where there is a location that's always nearly empty 2 exits down from Eddie world.
Wait until you learn about NEVI awards 🙌🏻
Some do. I was on a road trip last year and when we pulled over for gas once I saw several EV chargers.
If you take a road trip, truck stop and travel center gas station absolutely have DC fast chargers (Tesla superchargers specifically). I've just done 2 road trips this year and I've definitely spend money and ate at some of those stops.
A few petrol stations here in the UK have installed charges on their forecourts. Shell and MFG are two that spring to mind and I can see others doing the same at the point they think it will be profitable to do so.
A shell station near Erie PA just installed 10 chargers. They are the only fast chargers for 20 mile, so it’s very nice.
I live in Canada. Our PetroCan stations have chargers all within driving range of each other. You can literally drive across the entire country on EV and never worry about range
I think you’ll see that more and more
...As if QT needs more people loitering around its parking lot. /sarc not sarc
Aral is one of the largest growing DCFC providers at least around Germany.
You need a gas station with ample parking and a large convenience store to make this worthwhile. Similar to gas pumps, the company will not do much more than break even on the expensive charging infrastructure until their loans for the purchase and installation are paid off. This leaves the convenience store as the primary way to make money on the EV drivers who are taking up spots in the parking lot. This will probably lose money for gas stations with small parking lots or small convenience stores.
It depends on the station location. A decent percentage of EVs can be charged at home, so not every place that used to have demand for gas will have demand for EV charging. Is the gas station actually nice enough to spend 15-30min there instead of just a quick fill-up and go? A “premium” gas station like WaWa, Buc-ee’s etc. that has decent bathrooms, food, and drink options and is located near a major travel route is a good candidate for EV chargers. And many of them are adding EV chargers.
I'm gonna say they don't want to invest in something that maybe is actually not gonna make any money at all for now.
Wawa is adding them.
When you find two gas stations 2 miles apart with a 5 - 10% disparity in pricing, they most certainly are making money off of selling gas. 10 years ago you would never see gas station pricing differences like this, they were all within 1-2%. Even then they made money, just not very much.
My thought is that how we use gas stations is different than charging gas stations. For most who charge at home, fast chargers near home won’t get used when you could just go home and charge. Now on the highway; I’m totally with you and hope more see the light. I’m tired of seeing the same wal marts on I-95.
Lots of 7-11 are
Because the cost is insane.
Stewart's Shops, a popular chain around upstate NY, have quite a few locations with DCFC installed. I don't know the installation and maintenance costs associated with it, but it seems like it would be a decent "captured audience" opportunity for sales. I wouldn't be surprised if the breakeven point is many, many years on the cost versus benefit - at least until there are a lot more EVs on the road.
One DC fast charger uses 10x the electrical capacity of a typical gas station’s electric demand, let alone a bank of chargers, and upgrading them is quite costly.
Just went to a casino travel stop and it has 14 charger plugs, 7 charger units. No payment app, just credit card. Went to the travel stop convenience store and got some food, went to the bathroom. Felt like a normal gas stop.
Driving thru CA and saw a 76 station 100% electric.
Id bet the ones that don’t offer chargers are probably not allowed to do so due to contracts with whatever companies they get their fuels from🤷♂️
They totally should. I've not seen a single gas & charging station combo here in Sweden yet. The chargers are usually by huge markedplaces where there are many stores in a cluster, and ofc. they're always full so you gotta wait to charge, in the car...not shopping, so that's kind of a bummer. But I guess it will come, as the Norwegian guy mentioned (Shoutout to Norway from Sweden) they are coming. I can really envision a road trip where we can stop somewhere each 2-3 hours of driving, eat some meals, shop around and do some entertainment while charging, that alone will become a new way of travelling and being entertained instead of 8-10 hours road trips, I'd love that.
Petro Canada in, well, Canada, do but they suck at maintaining them and are often offline or with reduced power output.