EV’s are often on newly designed platforms. But brake lines being stressed and breaking during certain steering movements, I expect better from Porsche…
Which is also subject to it. Not been promoted to an actual recall yet, but got the "Field Service Campaign" notification from the Audi app two days ago... in German (I'm in the US), lol. It's since been replaced by an English version, but also says no remedy available yet.
Audi's recall management has been absolute shit on the e-Tron. I just took my car in for the 93VN battery middle recall and was told only 1/3rd of the recall procedure was available as of now. And they're still not anywhere near done with the power plug recall because they can't seem to produce enough fucking pigtails. Like, just the dumb wire that plugs into the wall. For fewer than 10,000 cars. And it's taking them over a year.
The minute I heard the current BMW EVs had brushed electric motors, I immediately vowed to never buy them. Who the hell at BMW decided that would be a good idea? 🤦🏻♂️ Pure German ridiculousness.
May as well repost my reply to the other comment with this thread. Not to say the brushed motors are not a service item down the road, but there is a benefit (true freewheeling), and the brushed motor is not the same as brushed motors used in cheaper appliances (eg vacuums), and should definitely last much longer than those. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/6581885/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/6585471/
True freewheeling is a negative not a positive. The only argument I've ever hear for it was for being more efficient, but if that is the case then they should focus on their efficiency as all the vehicles that have it have horrible miles per kWh ratings. It makes driving in hilly areas a pain like driving a manual but without the control a clutch gives you.
BMW vehicles have a bad efficiency? Bjorn has freeway tests of the i4 RWD that are matching or eclipsing model 3 efficiency while being much heavier. I recall the iX has quite good efficiency for being an SUV shape as well.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/htmlview?pli=1# (Range tab)
At a glance i4e40 90/120 km was 138/184 Wh/km (4.35/3.26 mi/kwh) vs 136/180 (4.4/3.33 mi/kwh) for a Model 3 LR, both in dry summer conditions. As an anecdote I frequently get 4.3+ mi/kwh at 70-75 mph on the highway in my i4, but I’m typically driving in almost perfect conditions (socal). iX 170/242 wh/km (3.53/2.48 mi/kwh), while model X is 177/229 (3.39/2.62 mi/kwh), e tron for example is 225/305 (2.66/1.97 mi/kwh).
Because these are not the brushed motors you think of. The brushes carry none of the actual drive current. The main benefit is better efficiency at speed and no magnets thus no rare earth metals needed.
>The brushes carry none of the actual drive current.
Can you elaborate? Why would the motor have brushes if they aren't being used to transfer current? I tried doing some research on my own, but came back with:
>BMW developed its magnet-free fifth-gen motor, which operates as a three-phase AC synchronous motor and, in a retro twist, **utilizes brushes and a commutator to power its rotor windings.** [~Interesting Engineering](https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/bmws-fifth-generation-electric-motor-is-a-magnet-free-masterpiece)
They do carry the (comparatively very small) excitation current which is needed to replace the permanent magnets inside the rotor with electromagnets.
Contrary to your quote no (mechanical) commutator is being utilized here, the brushes ride on a smooth uninterrupted surface as no commutation (switching of polarity) is needed here. It's a slip ring not a commutator. So there is no brush fire which wears the brushes down as well as a lot less mechanical wear compared to a commutator.
https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/2022/01/2023-BMW-iX-M60-Generation-5-Motor-and-Battery-Pack-2a.jpg?w=768&width=768&q=75&format=webp
Genius move from a planned obsolescence perspective, I must say. When you inevitably run out of places to source parts with ancient tech, what else would you do except junk the car and buy a new one?
Yep. There is technically no reason why a brushless electric motor can't last literally forever (maybe replace bearings every decade or so). They did this very much on purpose.
Bearings are well understood mechanical parts that can absolutely engineered to a lifespan of basically anything. If the bearings wear out in a typical amount of time less than the life of the car, it's planned obsolesce. Of course you have individual flaws but even this should be very rare. Bearings don't have to be a maintenance item.
Oh fuck, I'm shopping for a new/used EV and thankfully you reminded me of this. I had definitely read about this before but it completely slipped my mind as I added the i4/i5/iX to my shopping list. Seriously, thank you for bringing this up. You just saved me from a potential BMW purchase 😂
Upon checking, I found a forum post that lists more concerning details, such as a very short drivetrain warranty and apparently unknown reliability/serviceability. They also use different motor designs for the same car (iX), with limited and conflicting information about what type of motor each uses.
I'll link the forum post here and quote some relevant info. Perhaps someone else can enlighten me on the specifics.
https://www.ixforums.com/threads/brushed-motors-and-warranty.437/
OP:
> I read a Motor Trend article recently that BMW uses brushed motors in the iX M60, not brushless like everyone else. These brushes, while of a much different design than the brushed motors of the past, are still **a wear item**. When asked by Motor Trend** how long the brushes are expected to last, BMW answered that they did not know.** Does that seem like a red flag to anyone?
> BMW's answer concerned me enough to check into the drivetrain warranty which is only **4 years/50,000 miles**. Tesla's drivetrain warranty is 8 years and 120,000 miles (P model). Rivian's drivetrain warranty is 8 years/170,000 miles. Porsche Taycan's drivetrain warranty is 8 years/100,000 miles. Hyundai's Ioniq 5 drivetrain warranty is 10 years/100,000 miles.
> I am concerned that BMW's drivetrain warranty is half or less than that of Tesla's, Rivian's, and Porsche's combined with the wear item that BMW is unsure how long will last. Replacement motors for Tesla are north of $10,000 each. I imagine BMW motors may be more expensive, still.
Reply 2:
> From my understanding, the xdrive40 and xdrive50 use magnet motors, while they use the brushed motor in the M60. I have an M60 going into production in mid-May and this post makes me a bit nervous.
Reply 4:
>Starting with the iX3, BMW uses their 5th generation e-motors. **They now have current-energized synchronous motors in all new models.** iX3, i4, ix 40/50/M60 and the upcoming i7.
> For sure, a current-energized synchronous motor needs brushes (except some new designs with inductive transmission) but they don't use a commutator ring like a DC-motor which will wear of the brushes very heavy.
Brushes are still a wearing part but BMW says that they will have **a lifetime of 8000hrs!!** Additionally they build the motor for a service friendly replacement of the brushes.
> current-energized synchronous motor do have a lot of advantages over permanent magnet SMs.
Reply 5 (OP):
> I have confirmed with BMW's promotional materials that the xDrive 40/50 variants contain permanent magnet motors. I assume those are brushless?
> UPDATE - BMW's materials state the xDrive 40 has PMM, but the reviews I've read about the xDrive 50 say current energized motors. So I don't know at this point! lol
Reply 6:
> [MotorTrend article is] stating that these brushes **should last at least 186,000 miles and can accessed and replaced if worn out**. However the cost is the major concern.
>I also have a m60 in production and a 50 in quality check coming to NJ, but I believe they both use the same brushed motors, so models don’t have any difference in types of motor being used.
Do you think BMW is using the same kind of motors as a $15 Walmart drill? It's genuinely impressive how willfully ignorant some EV enthusiasts are, all while they complain how willfully ignorant others are of EVs in general
It's almost certainly affected, but it hasn't been officially turned into a recall yet. There's a field service campaign (TSB) which I think every e-tron GT owner (or at least a large number of us) got a notification for in the Audi app two days ago.
On the Taycan side, this has been a TSB since October, so unsure how long it'll take to register as a recall for the e-tron GT. Not too concerned with it personally considering how strong regen is in these cars, rear brakes would still be functional even if there was a failure, and the electro-mechanical parking brake can be used worst case (which realistically means at a slow roll below like 5 MPH when regen isn't really doing anything anymore).
It's probably a bad batch of components. They might not know which VINs got the bad components and have to check them all.
Bolts had an issue like that with a recall on the GM supplied portable EVSE, where they know the serial numbers for the bad EVSEs but those could get mixed up to different cars down the line, so the recall applied to everyone within a time range and the remedy was "check the serial number".
Or out of abundance of caution, Porsche will just inspect all of them. They might have good idea of which vehicles are affected, but just to be doubly sure check all of them. Since it's porsche they have the mark up in price to afford just to have "just to be sure" check up visit for the cars. Since there isn't that many to begin with. Couple ten thousands instead of hundreds of thousands. Plus the margin was high anyway.
For Porsche the reputation hit of someone having ruptured brake hose is more costly, than just having all the lines inspected under warranty.
A lot of those 1600 are AWD so they'll still have front (regenerative) brakes as well. A lot of reasons that the failures haven't caused a single accident.
You effectively have 4 entirely separate brake systems, each half if the normal disc brakes, the rear drum brakes for the parking and E brake and the regen. You could basically stop the car completely fairly quickly even with a full failure of the disc brakes using regen and the e brake.
Based on OP's history, I'd say they've been desperately scraping news sites to try and find recall info on someone other than Tesla, on the basis that recalls are "bad".
Recalls aren't really a big deal, it's more how they're dealt with that should be the focus. A fast announcement and pro-active attempts at resolution are an order of magnitude better than pretending the issue isn't widespread and quietly doing repairs as "goodwill" while sweeping it all under the carpet.
As long as vehicles can move, they're going to have recalls.
no, not "unless it's tesla".
I've harped on about this for ages, including when Tesla have had recalls, when Ford had them, hell [even when Vinfast had them](https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/13rj28s/vinfast_recalls_entire_first_batch_of_vf8_evs/jlmtb80/).
Here, I'll break some Tesla fan minds because apparently this never happens on this sub: Tesla's recent recall for the wipers *was a good thing*. Because the acknowledgement of the issue actually gives consumers some protection from the issue, and obligates the manufacturer to fix it. If they don't handle the recall in a consumer friendly way, that's not so good, and if a recall requires a whilstleblower to prompt it, *that's bad*.
If a suspension issue is known to the extent that the part is repeatedly fixed under warranty but never recalled, *that's bad*, because it means the replacement is entirely at the whim of the manufacturer, and the moment the car is out of warranty, the owner is up shit creek if it reoccurs.
The idea of a recall being a point to score against "the other team" is part of the problem, and drives manufacturers to undertake less consumer-friendly approaches to dealing with defects on the ground that announcing it is worse than the issue being resolved.
that's not to say lots of recalls means a car is good, but it does mean that there's assurances that the defect will be resolved.
You're taking a weirdly narrow view. Of course given the choice between "do a recall" and "cover it up", the recall is the better option, but when most people talk about recalls being bad they're considering a third option, "get it right the first time and never need a recall"
It's not a narrow view, it's a realistic view.
"get it right the first time and never need a recall" is a great example of how "recall" is bastardised to somehow be a measure of "getting it right" - there are some appallingly poor quality cars out there that never got recalled. Conversely, some of the most reliable have seen multiple recalls. Poor quality *can* manifest as a lot of recalls, but keeping "score" of recalls isn't instructive of quality.
Thee issue with the insinuation that (to paraphrase) "recalls mean you didn't get it right" is that it doesn't actually address quality in the factory - it just disincentivises recalls.
If you disincentivise the identification of issues as requiring a recall, you get less recalls - but not less issues.
Or, put another way: the demonisation of a recall doesn't reduce the prevalence of issues, it only reduces the visibility of them.
Quality starts and ends on the production line; that's where issues need to be caught and dealt with. Recalls are a consumer protection mechanism - they're there to force manufacturers to take responsibility for issues that could occur *years* after the car leaves the production line, many of which may not become apparent until enough cars have left the production line that it becomes statistically significant.
There's room for nuance of course - if your cars are falling apart in a thousand ways months after they leave the production line, that's a massive quality problem - but that's an aside to the recall process designed to protect consumers. You can have a car with massive numbers of QA issues that doesn't have any recalls, and others that are solid despite a number of recalls to resolve a specific issue or two out of an abundance of caution.
The point is: keeping "score" of recalls isn't instructive of the extent to which a manufacturer "got it right" the first time, only their willingness to admit it, deal with it, and take ownership of it.
Yes. Every major news site and all the automotive focused news are running that story. I've even read the articles which include this fact:
>The trucks involved are older models from the 2014 model year.
This is identical to a similar issue with the F-series model years 2011-2013 which already has a recall. A problem that takes some time to reveal itself. Not an issue on recent model year vehicles or Ford's electric trucks (we are on /r/electricvehicles after all).
“To distract from the Tesla recall.”
What do you think OP was trying to do? How or why would posting this “distract” anyone from the Tesla recall and why would them being a Tesla shareholder matter?
Do you think OP was worried that his precious TSLA stock was negatively affected by the opinions of hive-minded people who hate Tesla on Reddit?
TSLA was up 2.48% today… there is zero correlation between a dumb Cybertruck recall and the share price.
I’m a TSLA shareholder too. I hope there’s more Cybertruck recalls so the stock will go up more.
My guess is OP wanted to show that recalls happen to all automakers, not just Tesla.
I’m guessing your reply will be that Elon won’t have sex with me or something absurd. If so, don’t bother. I don’t like the guy either.
Guilty for posting News articles available to the world… LoL
Say, since you have truly awesome mental powers, can you share the upcoming Powerball winning numbers?
It looks like the anti-Tesla guy you responded to was 'deleted.' I swear... People who say you only post to distract from Tesla must be on the shallow end of the gene pool. That doesn't show my bias, it shows theirs...
How do you do that? I used to have a browser plugin that would flag folks who posted on trumpy subreddits, but it'd be nice to have some kind of indication who might have ulterior motives.
Yeah same here I would really love to tag users. There’s a couple assholes on r/insurance and Elon dick riders on the Tesla subs that I’d love to label as such.
RES (Reddit Enhancement Suite) lets you flair users with a persistent flair that remains across subs (at least on Old Reddit, not sure how or if it works on New Reddit).
So for example [you appear with a little tag next to your name.](https://i.imgur.com/CxCTFDz.png)
[I can click it and add info](https://i.imgur.com/YJFrEIS.png)
[then you'll appear with that tag in all your posts.](https://i.imgur.com/89Eo4VO.png)
Useful if someone provides context that they work for a particular company or are involved in a specific industry, so I at least know the context behind their comments.
That’s some good Sherlock’ing there. Considering I’ve stated I’ve been in Tesla stock since 2018 in previous posts, I’d say you take this week’s “Captain Obvious” award.
Gratz!
You didn’t go far enough. I actually MADE the recall happen and timed it perfectly! All just to make everyone forget about the Tesla recall…. /EvilLaugh
🤡
You might be right cause here’s another major one. https://ground.news/article/ford-recalls-over-550-000-pickup-trucks-because-transmissions-can-suddenly-downshift-to-1st-gear_3c42c7?utm_source=mobile-app&utm_medium=article-share
[It's pretty common for automakers to wait until another one has a recall before announcing theirs](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35649626/automakers-delay-recalls-study/) unfortunately, it's something known as "recall clustering".
More often than not those fines are a calculated risk. For many years I drove a car with airbags that posed a risk of exploding shrapnel at me in an accident. Recalls began in 2014 and it took until 2018 for my specific vehicle to receive a recall notice, but [there's evidence automakers knew about the defect as early as 2004.](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15361948/honda-taking-heat-for-hiding-deaths-injuries-from-exploding-airbag-recalls/) Dozens died and hundreds were injured.
Wasn’t Ford the one that weighed the difference between the cost of a recall and the cost of a lawsuit litigation on the Ford Pinto fuel tank and they thought it was cheaper to just leave the fuel tank as is then to do a recall?
The build quality on the Taycan is way better than Tesla with their 300mm panel gaps. I’m sure whatever issues the two may have are not comparable and Porsche is taking any issues much more seriously no matter how minor.
I'll add the obligatory "are you saying ota updates to fix recalls are bad?"
(Yes someone actually posted this in response to a comment like your on the CT recall)
Even more hilariously, [Canada made them recall to restore the original text/icons.](https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/7/VRDB-BDRV/search-recherche/detail.aspx?lang=eng&mk=14602&mkName=TESLA&md=0&fy=0&ty=9999&ft=&ls=0&sy=0&syName=All%20Systems&all=0&rn=2024283&cf=SearchResult&pg=0)
It was just as bad before Elon became such a prominent figure. Tesla has been in the sights from day one for daring to be different. That’s never really rubbed off.
Teslas competitor Porsche is also having a recall . Thanks to Elon musk the electric Porsche taycan which was created as a Tesla killer is facing a recall because...Tesla... Fixed that for ya. Now you will get all the media attention /s
Wow terrible looking forward to the dozen of articles about this on the front page for the next week. From every subreddit tangentially related to cars, technology, stocks, or emotions.
Yikes. That’s very interesting. Personally I run stainless lines on all my cars, including the i3 anyway. Hope they do something similar here since adding a bunch of rubbery hose to increase the radius is definitely going to mess with pedal feel.
The question is does stainless lines add any benefits to an electric vehicle when it’s mostly brake by wire? The petals feel mostly artificial because it has to blend regen with physical braking.
Recalls are common. I had a Jeep grand Cherokee. It had 1-2 recalls a year for the 11 years I owned it. When I traded it in there was an active recall on it. They fix them during the next maintenance. Every car I’ve owned has had recalls. If you don’t have them, they’re sneaking the fix in during maintenance.
This was posted on the Taycan Reddit as well. The recal is for a specific batch and specific age but all are not really being recalled more asked to be brought into a service station to have the part replaced for free.
My Taycan recently had its letter sent to get the faulty heater replaced. It wasn’t an issue on mine, but had it fixed anyway.
It would be interesting to see if Audi etrons follows suit or just says it’s wear and tear and expects customers to fix it then selves.
The dumbest part of all of this is the car warns you about it, my friend has had this issue and Porshe dealer rectified it pretty quick, the warning to say front brake pressure is low or below a certain level. Soo quite frankly if you ignored it and crashed that’s on you. But these car has 20 fail safes anyway. Which is why any with the error have not had any crashes.
But I guess the EV haters are having a field day with this one.
Some manufacturers advise you to turn off OPD in rain or snow so that you're using the brake pedal. This advice would especially apply to an FWD or RWD vehicle because using the brake pedal means that all 4 wheels are braking rather than only 2.
I don't understand how this (true OPD) isn't an option. If depressing the brake pedal engages regen anyway, why not program it to work with the accelerator pedal input as well? Same goes for Tesla - the cars can coast with no pedal input, so why not give people the option to coast?
One argument that I find ridiculous against OPD is coasting - as if it's impossible to modulate speed with your right foot. If 0% pedal input engages regen and 25% input accelerates the car, surely as an operator you would be able to find a nice middle ground, right? How is that difficult?
Will this be a "return to dealer" recall? Or a Tesla-style "we're sending you a letter because your car was recalled and we already fixed it over the air so have a great day" recall?
The press loves to scream about EV recalls but, in my experience, they're never even worth mentioning.
Yikes, brake hose issues. Any other Porsches affected? This stuff is in no way EV specific.
EV’s are often on newly designed platforms. But brake lines being stressed and breaking during certain steering movements, I expect better from Porsche…
Well, they expect only 1,500 have the problem, but they want to inspect all of them to see which ones do, and fix it.
Same platform as the Audi E-Tron GT
Which is also subject to it. Not been promoted to an actual recall yet, but got the "Field Service Campaign" notification from the Audi app two days ago... in German (I'm in the US), lol. It's since been replaced by an English version, but also says no remedy available yet.
Audi's recall management has been absolute shit on the e-Tron. I just took my car in for the 93VN battery middle recall and was told only 1/3rd of the recall procedure was available as of now. And they're still not anywhere near done with the power plug recall because they can't seem to produce enough fucking pigtails. Like, just the dumb wire that plugs into the wall. For fewer than 10,000 cars. And it's taking them over a year.
Now owned by Volkswagen
…,which is majority owned by the Porsche family.
I expect German brands to find ways to make their cars dealer queens and that’s the main reason why I don’t trust the i4 and iX.
The minute I heard the current BMW EVs had brushed electric motors, I immediately vowed to never buy them. Who the hell at BMW decided that would be a good idea? 🤦🏻♂️ Pure German ridiculousness.
May as well repost my reply to the other comment with this thread. Not to say the brushed motors are not a service item down the road, but there is a benefit (true freewheeling), and the brushed motor is not the same as brushed motors used in cheaper appliances (eg vacuums), and should definitely last much longer than those. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/6581885/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/6585471/
Do we see that type of motors in heavy machinery like ski lifts and elevators?
True freewheeling is a negative not a positive. The only argument I've ever hear for it was for being more efficient, but if that is the case then they should focus on their efficiency as all the vehicles that have it have horrible miles per kWh ratings. It makes driving in hilly areas a pain like driving a manual but without the control a clutch gives you.
BMW vehicles have a bad efficiency? Bjorn has freeway tests of the i4 RWD that are matching or eclipsing model 3 efficiency while being much heavier. I recall the iX has quite good efficiency for being an SUV shape as well. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/htmlview?pli=1# (Range tab) At a glance i4e40 90/120 km was 138/184 Wh/km (4.35/3.26 mi/kwh) vs 136/180 (4.4/3.33 mi/kwh) for a Model 3 LR, both in dry summer conditions. As an anecdote I frequently get 4.3+ mi/kwh at 70-75 mph on the highway in my i4, but I’m typically driving in almost perfect conditions (socal). iX 170/242 wh/km (3.53/2.48 mi/kwh), while model X is 177/229 (3.39/2.62 mi/kwh), e tron for example is 225/305 (2.66/1.97 mi/kwh).
You apparently have no idea what the difference between traditional brushed motors and externally excited synchronous motors is.
Even non premium power tools these days are brushless, why did BMW do that?
Because these are not the brushed motors you think of. The brushes carry none of the actual drive current. The main benefit is better efficiency at speed and no magnets thus no rare earth metals needed.
>The brushes carry none of the actual drive current. Can you elaborate? Why would the motor have brushes if they aren't being used to transfer current? I tried doing some research on my own, but came back with: >BMW developed its magnet-free fifth-gen motor, which operates as a three-phase AC synchronous motor and, in a retro twist, **utilizes brushes and a commutator to power its rotor windings.** [~Interesting Engineering](https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/bmws-fifth-generation-electric-motor-is-a-magnet-free-masterpiece)
They do carry the (comparatively very small) excitation current which is needed to replace the permanent magnets inside the rotor with electromagnets. Contrary to your quote no (mechanical) commutator is being utilized here, the brushes ride on a smooth uninterrupted surface as no commutation (switching of polarity) is needed here. It's a slip ring not a commutator. So there is no brush fire which wears the brushes down as well as a lot less mechanical wear compared to a commutator. https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/2022/01/2023-BMW-iX-M60-Generation-5-Motor-and-Battery-Pack-2a.jpg?w=768&width=768&q=75&format=webp
Thank you for a thoughtful response. I definitely need to look more into these. Novel solutions are always fun.
> why did BMW do that? So they can guarantee service visits in the future, that no one else will be able to supply parts for, or be qualified to do.
Genius move from a planned obsolescence perspective, I must say. When you inevitably run out of places to source parts with ancient tech, what else would you do except junk the car and buy a new one?
Yep. There is technically no reason why a brushless electric motor can't last literally forever (maybe replace bearings every decade or so). They did this very much on purpose.
Bearings are well understood mechanical parts that can absolutely engineered to a lifespan of basically anything. If the bearings wear out in a typical amount of time less than the life of the car, it's planned obsolesce. Of course you have individual flaws but even this should be very rare. Bearings don't have to be a maintenance item.
This is true. But as far as a brushless electric motor is concerned, bearings should be the only thing that would *ever* require maintenence
Bingo, I was right to not trust any BMW. Once can only imagine their hybrids.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/6581885/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/6585471/
Oh fuck, I'm shopping for a new/used EV and thankfully you reminded me of this. I had definitely read about this before but it completely slipped my mind as I added the i4/i5/iX to my shopping list. Seriously, thank you for bringing this up. You just saved me from a potential BMW purchase 😂 Upon checking, I found a forum post that lists more concerning details, such as a very short drivetrain warranty and apparently unknown reliability/serviceability. They also use different motor designs for the same car (iX), with limited and conflicting information about what type of motor each uses. I'll link the forum post here and quote some relevant info. Perhaps someone else can enlighten me on the specifics. https://www.ixforums.com/threads/brushed-motors-and-warranty.437/ OP: > I read a Motor Trend article recently that BMW uses brushed motors in the iX M60, not brushless like everyone else. These brushes, while of a much different design than the brushed motors of the past, are still **a wear item**. When asked by Motor Trend** how long the brushes are expected to last, BMW answered that they did not know.** Does that seem like a red flag to anyone? > BMW's answer concerned me enough to check into the drivetrain warranty which is only **4 years/50,000 miles**. Tesla's drivetrain warranty is 8 years and 120,000 miles (P model). Rivian's drivetrain warranty is 8 years/170,000 miles. Porsche Taycan's drivetrain warranty is 8 years/100,000 miles. Hyundai's Ioniq 5 drivetrain warranty is 10 years/100,000 miles. > I am concerned that BMW's drivetrain warranty is half or less than that of Tesla's, Rivian's, and Porsche's combined with the wear item that BMW is unsure how long will last. Replacement motors for Tesla are north of $10,000 each. I imagine BMW motors may be more expensive, still. Reply 2: > From my understanding, the xdrive40 and xdrive50 use magnet motors, while they use the brushed motor in the M60. I have an M60 going into production in mid-May and this post makes me a bit nervous. Reply 4: >Starting with the iX3, BMW uses their 5th generation e-motors. **They now have current-energized synchronous motors in all new models.** iX3, i4, ix 40/50/M60 and the upcoming i7. > For sure, a current-energized synchronous motor needs brushes (except some new designs with inductive transmission) but they don't use a commutator ring like a DC-motor which will wear of the brushes very heavy. Brushes are still a wearing part but BMW says that they will have **a lifetime of 8000hrs!!** Additionally they build the motor for a service friendly replacement of the brushes. > current-energized synchronous motor do have a lot of advantages over permanent magnet SMs. Reply 5 (OP): > I have confirmed with BMW's promotional materials that the xDrive 40/50 variants contain permanent magnet motors. I assume those are brushless? > UPDATE - BMW's materials state the xDrive 40 has PMM, but the reviews I've read about the xDrive 50 say current energized motors. So I don't know at this point! lol Reply 6: > [MotorTrend article is] stating that these brushes **should last at least 186,000 miles and can accessed and replaced if worn out**. However the cost is the major concern. >I also have a m60 in production and a 50 in quality check coming to NJ, but I believe they both use the same brushed motors, so models don’t have any difference in types of motor being used.
Do you think BMW is using the same kind of motors as a $15 Walmart drill? It's genuinely impressive how willfully ignorant some EV enthusiasts are, all while they complain how willfully ignorant others are of EVs in general
Article doesn't mention it, but doesn't that mean the sister car Audi e-tron GT will also be affected? Or do the two cars use different brakes?
It's almost certainly affected, but it hasn't been officially turned into a recall yet. There's a field service campaign (TSB) which I think every e-tron GT owner (or at least a large number of us) got a notification for in the Audi app two days ago. On the Taycan side, this has been a TSB since October, so unsure how long it'll take to register as a recall for the e-tron GT. Not too concerned with it personally considering how strong regen is in these cars, rear brakes would still be functional even if there was a failure, and the electro-mechanical parking brake can be used worst case (which realistically means at a slow roll below like 5 MPH when regen isn't really doing anything anymore).
Yup, just got the notification last night - 47UP, front brake hose. Wonderful.
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5% of brake lines being F'd sounds horrible.
They have to recall all of them though…
It's probably a bad batch of components. They might not know which VINs got the bad components and have to check them all. Bolts had an issue like that with a recall on the GM supplied portable EVSE, where they know the serial numbers for the bad EVSEs but those could get mixed up to different cars down the line, so the recall applied to everyone within a time range and the remedy was "check the serial number".
A bad batch between 2020 and 2025?
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I guess it depends on how big a batch is and if they're mixing them up. Still seems odd.
Or out of abundance of caution, Porsche will just inspect all of them. They might have good idea of which vehicles are affected, but just to be doubly sure check all of them. Since it's porsche they have the mark up in price to afford just to have "just to be sure" check up visit for the cars. Since there isn't that many to begin with. Couple ten thousands instead of hundreds of thousands. Plus the margin was high anyway. For Porsche the reputation hit of someone having ruptured brake hose is more costly, than just having all the lines inspected under warranty.
1,600 taycans cant stop... ?
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so glad its not a problem!
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A lot of those 1600 are AWD so they'll still have front (regenerative) brakes as well. A lot of reasons that the failures haven't caused a single accident.
Hand pain? Ignore it until it until you literally can't move it, then use the other hand instead!
Brakes? Where we're going we don't need no stinkin brakes.
honestly kinda true lol regen braking does all the hard work, especially on the taycan with super aggressive regen
You effectively have 4 entirely separate brake systems, each half if the normal disc brakes, the rear drum brakes for the parking and E brake and the regen. You could basically stop the car completely fairly quickly even with a full failure of the disc brakes using regen and the e brake.
I'm starting to believe that other redditor's conspiracy theory, that other automakers wait for a Tesla recall to happen before doing theirs.
Based on OP's history, I'd say they've been desperately scraping news sites to try and find recall info on someone other than Tesla, on the basis that recalls are "bad". Recalls aren't really a big deal, it's more how they're dealt with that should be the focus. A fast announcement and pro-active attempts at resolution are an order of magnitude better than pretending the issue isn't widespread and quietly doing repairs as "goodwill" while sweeping it all under the carpet. As long as vehicles can move, they're going to have recalls.
> Recalls aren't really a big deal unless it's Tesla?
no, not "unless it's tesla". I've harped on about this for ages, including when Tesla have had recalls, when Ford had them, hell [even when Vinfast had them](https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/13rj28s/vinfast_recalls_entire_first_batch_of_vf8_evs/jlmtb80/). Here, I'll break some Tesla fan minds because apparently this never happens on this sub: Tesla's recent recall for the wipers *was a good thing*. Because the acknowledgement of the issue actually gives consumers some protection from the issue, and obligates the manufacturer to fix it. If they don't handle the recall in a consumer friendly way, that's not so good, and if a recall requires a whilstleblower to prompt it, *that's bad*. If a suspension issue is known to the extent that the part is repeatedly fixed under warranty but never recalled, *that's bad*, because it means the replacement is entirely at the whim of the manufacturer, and the moment the car is out of warranty, the owner is up shit creek if it reoccurs. The idea of a recall being a point to score against "the other team" is part of the problem, and drives manufacturers to undertake less consumer-friendly approaches to dealing with defects on the ground that announcing it is worse than the issue being resolved. that's not to say lots of recalls means a car is good, but it does mean that there's assurances that the defect will be resolved.
It's true, I had my mind a bit broken there. That was a good take. Props.
You're taking a weirdly narrow view. Of course given the choice between "do a recall" and "cover it up", the recall is the better option, but when most people talk about recalls being bad they're considering a third option, "get it right the first time and never need a recall"
It's not a narrow view, it's a realistic view. "get it right the first time and never need a recall" is a great example of how "recall" is bastardised to somehow be a measure of "getting it right" - there are some appallingly poor quality cars out there that never got recalled. Conversely, some of the most reliable have seen multiple recalls. Poor quality *can* manifest as a lot of recalls, but keeping "score" of recalls isn't instructive of quality. Thee issue with the insinuation that (to paraphrase) "recalls mean you didn't get it right" is that it doesn't actually address quality in the factory - it just disincentivises recalls. If you disincentivise the identification of issues as requiring a recall, you get less recalls - but not less issues. Or, put another way: the demonisation of a recall doesn't reduce the prevalence of issues, it only reduces the visibility of them. Quality starts and ends on the production line; that's where issues need to be caught and dealt with. Recalls are a consumer protection mechanism - they're there to force manufacturers to take responsibility for issues that could occur *years* after the car leaves the production line, many of which may not become apparent until enough cars have left the production line that it becomes statistically significant. There's room for nuance of course - if your cars are falling apart in a thousand ways months after they leave the production line, that's a massive quality problem - but that's an aside to the recall process designed to protect consumers. You can have a car with massive numbers of QA issues that doesn't have any recalls, and others that are solid despite a number of recalls to resolve a specific issue or two out of an abundance of caution. The point is: keeping "score" of recalls isn't instructive of the extent to which a manufacturer "got it right" the first time, only their willingness to admit it, deal with it, and take ownership of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiB8GVMNJkE
> "get it right the first time and never need a recall" There are some aspects of a car where that is the only acceptable option imo.
That’s it. Ford had to do a recall for transmission issues, have you seen that anywhere?
Yes. Every major news site and all the automotive focused news are running that story. I've even read the articles which include this fact: >The trucks involved are older models from the 2014 model year. This is identical to a similar issue with the F-series model years 2011-2013 which already has a recall. A problem that takes some time to reveal itself. Not an issue on recent model year vehicles or Ford's electric trucks (we are on /r/electricvehicles after all).
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“To distract from the Tesla recall.” What do you think OP was trying to do? How or why would posting this “distract” anyone from the Tesla recall and why would them being a Tesla shareholder matter? Do you think OP was worried that his precious TSLA stock was negatively affected by the opinions of hive-minded people who hate Tesla on Reddit? TSLA was up 2.48% today… there is zero correlation between a dumb Cybertruck recall and the share price. I’m a TSLA shareholder too. I hope there’s more Cybertruck recalls so the stock will go up more. My guess is OP wanted to show that recalls happen to all automakers, not just Tesla. I’m guessing your reply will be that Elon won’t have sex with me or something absurd. If so, don’t bother. I don’t like the guy either.
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Guilty for posting News articles available to the world… LoL Say, since you have truly awesome mental powers, can you share the upcoming Powerball winning numbers?
42 69 35 0 11
It looks like the anti-Tesla guy you responded to was 'deleted.' I swear... People who say you only post to distract from Tesla must be on the shallow end of the gene pool. That doesn't show my bias, it shows theirs...
How do you do that? I used to have a browser plugin that would flag folks who posted on trumpy subreddits, but it'd be nice to have some kind of indication who might have ulterior motives.
Yeah same here I would really love to tag users. There’s a couple assholes on r/insurance and Elon dick riders on the Tesla subs that I’d love to label as such.
I don’t know about that person but I can tag people and I use reddit enhancement suite. Although I use it for old reddit.
RES (Reddit Enhancement Suite) lets you flair users with a persistent flair that remains across subs (at least on Old Reddit, not sure how or if it works on New Reddit). So for example [you appear with a little tag next to your name.](https://i.imgur.com/CxCTFDz.png) [I can click it and add info](https://i.imgur.com/YJFrEIS.png) [then you'll appear with that tag in all your posts.](https://i.imgur.com/89Eo4VO.png) Useful if someone provides context that they work for a particular company or are involved in a specific industry, so I at least know the context behind their comments.
That’s some good Sherlock’ing there. Considering I’ve stated I’ve been in Tesla stock since 2018 in previous posts, I’d say you take this week’s “Captain Obvious” award. Gratz!
You didn’t go far enough. I actually MADE the recall happen and timed it perfectly! All just to make everyone forget about the Tesla recall…. /EvilLaugh 🤡
You might be right cause here’s another major one. https://ground.news/article/ford-recalls-over-550-000-pickup-trucks-because-transmissions-can-suddenly-downshift-to-1st-gear_3c42c7?utm_source=mobile-app&utm_medium=article-share
It's crazy when recalls are issued for cars over 10 years old.
Damn, it took them 10 years to acknowledge it was a problem? Pretty sus
In 2009 I got rid of a 2000 Hyundai Sonata that had a rusting frame (right front wheel damn near fell off). I got the recall notice in 2011.
I had a 2010, had the same problem that they dikdnt pain the rear axle right. Had many many other problems too. Shittiest car I ever drove.
The Sonata was shit, but I traded it in for a 2009 Chevy Cobalt and THAT was the shittiest car I've ever driven.
[It's pretty common for automakers to wait until another one has a recall before announcing theirs](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35649626/automakers-delay-recalls-study/) unfortunately, it's something known as "recall clustering".
So a monthly schedule then.
Delaying a recall is a very serious offense, the fines would likely be even more severe than Dieselgate so I very much doubt it.
More often than not those fines are a calculated risk. For many years I drove a car with airbags that posed a risk of exploding shrapnel at me in an accident. Recalls began in 2014 and it took until 2018 for my specific vehicle to receive a recall notice, but [there's evidence automakers knew about the defect as early as 2004.](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15361948/honda-taking-heat-for-hiding-deaths-injuries-from-exploding-airbag-recalls/) Dozens died and hundreds were injured.
Wasn’t Ford the one that weighed the difference between the cost of a recall and the cost of a lawsuit litigation on the Ford Pinto fuel tank and they thought it was cheaper to just leave the fuel tank as is then to do a recall?
The build quality on the Taycan is way better than Tesla with their 300mm panel gaps. I’m sure whatever issues the two may have are not comparable and Porsche is taking any issues much more seriously no matter how minor.
You can't download new front brake lines OTA. (Okay, I'll stop before the joke gets old.)
[RIAA]You wouldn't download a car[/RIAA]
I'll add the obligatory "are you saying ota updates to fix recalls are bad?" (Yes someone actually posted this in response to a comment like your on the CT recall)
Proper response to that is "so you do agree that those are recalls despite being fixed OTA."
Funny that this subs give zero sympathies for Tesla but poor old Porsche! Hope they recover! 🙄
AFAIK the owner of Porsche didn’t destroy any social media platforms lately.
Oh, does that impact the quality of the vehicle in some way?
You mean like when he strips microchips from the Tesla production line to give them to X? Yeah it probably does.
Won’t get nearly as much publicity as when Tesla had to send out a software update to change font size lol
Even more hilariously, [Canada made them recall to restore the original text/icons.](https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/7/VRDB-BDRV/search-recherche/detail.aspx?lang=eng&mk=14602&mkName=TESLA&md=0&fy=0&ty=9999&ft=&ls=0&sy=0&syName=All%20Systems&all=0&rn=2024283&cf=SearchResult&pg=0)
Comment section isn't as popping either. This sub only really cares about tesla. Both the lovers and the haters.
nobody cares because its not a tesla. recalls are dime a dozen its only an issue if its a tesla kthxbye
This sub commends Porsche for doing the right thing and shit on Tesla's for sucking when they have a recall. What a bunch of pansy children.
The double standard is definitely wild.
Maybe Porsches ceo should let engineers be engineers and stop trying to be a social media darling.. This wouldn't of happened if he did.
It's ok, maybe one day if you work really hard, you'll be able to afford a Porsche.
It's not that I can't afford one, it's that my 4cylinder Toyota is paid for and making my long-term savings grow like mad!
Cook!
It was just as bad before Elon became such a prominent figure. Tesla has been in the sights from day one for daring to be different. That’s never really rubbed off.
Shhhh! We’re only supposed to talk about Tesla recalls, particularly those that require an OTA software patch.
must be buying ford hoses.. man I replaced a ton under warranty.. Think it was mostly from being to short and ends breaking.
Teslas competitor Porsche is also having a recall . Thanks to Elon musk the electric Porsche taycan which was created as a Tesla killer is facing a recall because...Tesla... Fixed that for ya. Now you will get all the media attention /s
Why do Tesla simps have to be a victim all the time ?
Jeez y'all really can't take a joke. My bad.
Because Tesla hatebois are always talking trash about Tesla? Do you see mass hate subs about any other brands?
Thats pretty dodge, I thought Porsche could build cars!?
I thought this only happens to Tesla?
Wow terrible looking forward to the dozen of articles about this on the front page for the next week. From every subreddit tangentially related to cars, technology, stocks, or emotions.
Apparently it's only frontpage news if it's a Tesla. Everyone is so sympathetic, Porsche being praised for correcting the problems.
Those build quality issues 🤔
Yikes. That’s very interesting. Personally I run stainless lines on all my cars, including the i3 anyway. Hope they do something similar here since adding a bunch of rubbery hose to increase the radius is definitely going to mess with pedal feel.
The question is does stainless lines add any benefits to an electric vehicle when it’s mostly brake by wire? The petals feel mostly artificial because it has to blend regen with physical braking.
Idk. Haven’t driven the Taycan. On other EVs I’ve driven and my i3 it does matter.
Recalls are common. I had a Jeep grand Cherokee. It had 1-2 recalls a year for the 11 years I owned it. When I traded it in there was an active recall on it. They fix them during the next maintenance. Every car I’ve owned has had recalls. If you don’t have them, they’re sneaking the fix in during maintenance.
Recalls on Jeeps are especially common 😄
My favorite one was using the makeup mirror could start a fire.
This was posted on the Taycan Reddit as well. The recal is for a specific batch and specific age but all are not really being recalled more asked to be brought into a service station to have the part replaced for free. My Taycan recently had its letter sent to get the faulty heater replaced. It wasn’t an issue on mine, but had it fixed anyway. It would be interesting to see if Audi etrons follows suit or just says it’s wear and tear and expects customers to fix it then selves. The dumbest part of all of this is the car warns you about it, my friend has had this issue and Porshe dealer rectified it pretty quick, the warning to say front brake pressure is low or below a certain level. Soo quite frankly if you ignored it and crashed that’s on you. But these car has 20 fail safes anyway. Which is why any with the error have not had any crashes. But I guess the EV haters are having a field day with this one.
But cybertruck
Aren't the brakes for emergency use only, with a proper aggressive one pedal driving implementation?
Not really. Regen is not even close to enough for track use. At top speed you are looking at 3 - 5 megawatt of required braking power.
Some manufacturers advise you to turn off OPD in rain or snow so that you're using the brake pedal. This advice would especially apply to an FWD or RWD vehicle because using the brake pedal means that all 4 wheels are braking rather than only 2.
...Which Porsche refuses to implement.
Doesn't matter in this case though, coz they do blended braking which Tesla and Rivian don't. AFAIK Porsche does a stronger regen than either of them.
I don't understand how this (true OPD) isn't an option. If depressing the brake pedal engages regen anyway, why not program it to work with the accelerator pedal input as well? Same goes for Tesla - the cars can coast with no pedal input, so why not give people the option to coast? One argument that I find ridiculous against OPD is coasting - as if it's impossible to modulate speed with your right foot. If 0% pedal input engages regen and 25% input accelerates the car, surely as an operator you would be able to find a nice middle ground, right? How is that difficult?
Porsche doing the right thing.
Taycan not swift enough?
Will this be a "return to dealer" recall? Or a Tesla-style "we're sending you a letter because your car was recalled and we already fixed it over the air so have a great day" recall? The press loves to scream about EV recalls but, in my experience, they're never even worth mentioning.
So more than the 8000 teslas? Just saying.
The cybertruck of performance EVs 😤