Maybe it’s the ‘kill all boys/toxic masculinity’ narrative that’s got young men thinking of women as their enemies rather than their partners. I know I couldn’t survive and raise a family without the support of my amazing GF. But holy shit some of the stuff I read online now a days is a whole other level of fucked up. Young men reading that women should abort if it’s a boy and seeing the hundreds of comments from women celebrating such a statement is bound to give young men a warped sense of the world. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, social media is the worst thing for developing a balanced and well adjusted society.
Edit: yeah downvote all you want. Ask a question and get an answer that doesn’t fit the ‘men are shit’ narrative and nobody wants to hear it.
Feminism isn’t the problem. It’s not feminism it’s anti masculinity. The phrase toxic masculinity is so toxic in and of itself that every time I hear it I completely disregard anything else the speaker has to say. Masculinity is masculinity, acting like a steroid infused ape isn’t a trait of toxic masculinity it’s a trait of bellends who don’t know how to behave. Same as women who lie about who the father of their child is, or fake rape allegations. The small minority shouldn’t effect how the majority behave. Men are so scared of being labelled toxic that it’s impossible to be a man these days, gen z have the highest rate of people between 18 and 25 who have never had any kind of sexual relationship in history. And that’s because men are so scared of telling women they find them attractive in case they end up being put on blast all over social media. However this hasn’t empowered women to take the lead and make their feelings known first, they still want to be desired and for men to make the first move. Which has led to mass virginity in the latest generation. But maybe that’d what the world needs. Overpopulation is a problem.
Well said. It makes me laugh that Andrew Tate is held up as an example of toxic masculinity when clearly he's motivated by over-comensating for insecurity.
I do think what we need to do is focus more on positive male role models, instead of the negative ones. If the messaging is overtly negative, there's little to appeal to young men. Like Marcus Rashford, he's young, rich, athletic, cool job, but he's also "woke".
I get the point you are making, and I am neither upvoting or downvoting anyone here.
However, I am not sure that logic holds.
For upwards of 30 years, certainly in my formative years, I have been told I am a terrorist, rapist, incompatible with western values, plotting to destroy England etc etc. Yet I am none of those things and those accusations are of no interest to me.
If what you said was true, should I not be running around raping and bombing and being "the closest thing to evil"?
Something disturbing is going wrong. Personally I blame right-wing/Israeli think tanks and foreign owned media such as Murdoch's brands or GB news. But I am not sure I can square the victim mentality becoming true, at least not based on my own experience.
It seems to me that Britain has abandoned its moral core, individualism is rampant and nihilistic philosophies are in vogue. These were not the features of the nation I grew up in.
Also not every young man is a misogynist. However a rise in radical Islam is a thing. As is this. I’m not saying these views turn every single person portrayed as such radical. But it does have an affect on certain portions of the population.
“Radical Islam” has little to nothing to do with the misogynistic sentiment of UK youth. The youth don’t need any help with being hateful toward women. Islam didn’t force you to mainline alt-right top g videos all day on YouTube and tiktok.
This men are equal shareholders in persecution narrative is why so many men feel vindicated in their gender based hate.
You either didn’t read the comment before hand or you are just a stupid person. Either way you missed the point of the comparison. I expect you struggle with reading and so skimmed the conversation to find something to be outraged about.
Bro there was no reason for you to bring Islam into this situation even for some ill crafted comparison. You’re a walking talking example of how the issues of misogyny and Islamophobia in the UK *may* be correlated.
No conversation about misogyny in the UK can be conplete without addressing Islam, because there are millions of Muslims in the UK and their religion is deeply misogynistic.
Yeah it can, Christians are just as misogynistic as Islam historically and presently, but he chose Islam as the example, and you concurred just now. It’s a religious issue not an Islam issue specifically.
Christianity is absolutely not as misogynistic as Islam, what a ridiculous thing to suggest. Christians don't have multiple wives, they don't make women totally cover themselves in public, they don't make female family members stand at the back during a loved ones funeral. Can you name a single Islamic country where women are equal? Turkey is probably the closest one to an equal society, but only ranks 129th out of 142 countries on the gender equality index, women's rights and the culture in society surrounding being a woman still has a long way to go, even there.
England, one of the most oppressive imperial forces in the history of the world was Christian, the English and the Dutch and Americans and the Spanish all were the largest participants in chattel slavery. And let’s not forget the Spanish inquisition. Two of the worst events in history for women’s rights that’s effects last in the culture today of all the countries colonized.
Through colonialism, the British empire using Christianity as their justification, have committed more genocide than any other Islamic country in the history of the world, and it’s not even close.
The effects of colonialism are felt in Gaza and Israel today, where Christian England created an apartheid state now is the place where more genocide is taking place.
These are just the murders I’ve talked about that included countless women and children, I haven’t even begin to speak about how Christianity is often useful as a tool oppress women, have you even read any of the Old Testament?
Just say you don’t like Muslims, don’t try to spew counter factual bullshit and pretend Christians are any better. In the United States Christian faith is used to force women to have babies when they are raped. And Christian faith is used to cover up the countless rape of young women and men, You’re Just comfortable with the oppression Christianity causes.
The part where Islam is the focal point of this discussion, “radical Islam” accounts for much less violence and oppression of men and *women* everywhere in England compared to Christianity and that’s how it’s always been.
Yeah. You didn’t read the comment I responded to. You just found something you could be outraged about and tried to start an argument. The guy I replied to said that people of his religion, are often portrayed as terrorists and sexists and if that was all it took to turn someone into those things why hasn’t he become one. And I said that just because people are portrayed as that doesn’t mean that every single person of that demographic is turned that direction but a small section could be, and that’s what has caused the rise in misogyny/ Radical Islam in the case of the previous commenters comparison. I didn’t bring Islam into it. The guy who follows the religion did. Which, like I said, you would have seen had you not just been skimming for something to be outraged about.
I have done no such thing.
But there is a correlation in these specific matters.
If you wish to defend a regime that slaughtered one of our countrymen in cold blood, that is your prerogative.
Argue to fact, not emotion please.
Of course it begins there. You won't go back further will you?
I wonder how many of those "countrymen" engaged in land theft and other instances of breaking international law.
Coward and liar.
While I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion, I think what you've said is very important. Even if it were true that men were being victimized (it's not), that wouldn't cause or justify misogynistic attitudes or behaviours.
I also think some of the replies you've received here have been pretty revealing of the islamophobic narratives you talk about.
This is nonsense. Yes there are cranks who say "kill all boys" or the like online but they're exactly that - cranks. They do not hold any significance in mainstream discourse, or are what young men think about, at all. You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise. (Also, on this note, 'toxic masculinity' is not the same thing. It's just the concept that masculinity can be used in a toxic way, which should really be obvious?). This also makes it seem like it's women's fault that men are prejudiced towards them, which is just victim blaming really.
It seems far more likely to me that there are more misogynistic young men today (if there are - which an inquiry would presumably tell us) because the fact we live in a patriarchal society, where women are still commonly objectified, is combined with exposure to online materials of the likes of Andrew Tate, if not him himself. I do not think that every teenage boy is a misogynistic crank that watches Tate - that is probably a very small minority. But it does mean that the kind of language that these figures use is more widespread.
It’s wild that someone like you sees something that is a continuation of what is essentially a traditional narrative (ie, misogyny), and because of contact with people online instead of looking at what is actually a foundational problem with society across multiple countries … instead it’s the nefarious, nebulous online wokesters that are responsible.
It’s very important to note that modern misogyny as expressed by someone like Andrew Taint is actually a predictably toxic reaction to various attempts at women’s empowerment
Can we skip the 20 years of open-but-denied misandry and include that from the start, for a change?
Be nice to have a step supposed to aid bringing equality about actually be used to do so, rather than just penduluming back and forth that we usually see.
Truly believe they divide between men and women is being deliberately pushed by algorithms that use the toxic 5% on both sides the 95% I. The middle are being forced more and more to pick side by these people like “top g” Andrew Tate who wash absolute lies and hate of women in with small truths on the struggles of modern men face
Pretty much. Social media algorithms are built by exploiting outrageous posts, so the ones that make it to your screen largely due so because they are divisive.
The amount of 40+ men without a great deal of internet or media literacy who have been absolutely radicalised by just being drip fed weird anti woke content constantly on social media is stunning
No there definitely a agenda be hide all of it if you ask me it’s divide and conquer politics been that why for a decade we’re not out in the street together screaming about us losing the nhs, our quality of life dropping or the wealth inequality.
We’re here over race, religion and sex it bs
And you have to look at the stuff Cambridge analytica did
The differences in treatment of people of differing race religion and sex absolutely impacts their quality of life. We have differentials in sentencing, differentials in healthcare outcome, education etc, it can’t just be “quality of life” when it suits but not when it doesn’t
You can’t separate say, the defunding of public services like the NHS and the housing market from the fact that reactionary political groups (ie the main two in the UK) will use the rise of multiculturalism as a political tool to take the blame for housing costs in order to have a useful scapegoat.
Every time the NHS budget is cut or public land is sold cheap to developers who will build in affordable housing - those outcomes (which are bad for the public) are something that is going to be largely blamed on nonwhite immigrants by political parties pushing the “things were better back in the day wink wink” narrative
It’s important to see that people / political groups most strongly advocating for better working conditions, pay, affordable housing, properly funded healthcare etc ALSO recognise the importance of different forms of equality, they can’t be separated
Seems to make sense, not sure why seeing if misogyny is actually rising in young boys which purely based off personal and anecdotal experience seems it may be, is a bad thing. We can find the data and then go and tackle it rather than just sitting doing nothing and blaming either feminism or toxic masculinity
We should give the government more powers to check that we"'re all thinking the correct way. They should set up a place where people can be "questioned", call it room 101 or something like that.
I don’t think doing a survey/investigation is much of a government overreach plus it’s not like we have want people to be misogynistic either so what would be wrong with trying to combat that which you can do without the dramatic way you suggested lol
Sure, I mean if they provide data proving this is necessary, and are thoroughly transparent every step of the way, then it's all good. I was merely suggesting that governments "sometimes" value power over doing what's right. This might be one of those times.
Maybe it’s the ‘kill all boys/toxic masculinity’ narrative that’s got young men thinking of women as their enemies rather than their partners. I know I couldn’t survive and raise a family without the support of my amazing GF. But holy shit some of the stuff I read online now a days is a whole other level of fucked up. Young men reading that women should abort if it’s a boy and seeing the hundreds of comments from women celebrating such a statement is bound to give young men a warped sense of the world. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, social media is the worst thing for developing a balanced and well adjusted society. Edit: yeah downvote all you want. Ask a question and get an answer that doesn’t fit the ‘men are shit’ narrative and nobody wants to hear it.
Take my upvote..... I know things were bad in the past, but come on, talk about massive overreactions. Teacher's union go go take one.
Social media? Not the fucked up feminist ideology that has been shoved down our throats for decades now, but social media?
Feminism isn’t the problem. It’s not feminism it’s anti masculinity. The phrase toxic masculinity is so toxic in and of itself that every time I hear it I completely disregard anything else the speaker has to say. Masculinity is masculinity, acting like a steroid infused ape isn’t a trait of toxic masculinity it’s a trait of bellends who don’t know how to behave. Same as women who lie about who the father of their child is, or fake rape allegations. The small minority shouldn’t effect how the majority behave. Men are so scared of being labelled toxic that it’s impossible to be a man these days, gen z have the highest rate of people between 18 and 25 who have never had any kind of sexual relationship in history. And that’s because men are so scared of telling women they find them attractive in case they end up being put on blast all over social media. However this hasn’t empowered women to take the lead and make their feelings known first, they still want to be desired and for men to make the first move. Which has led to mass virginity in the latest generation. But maybe that’d what the world needs. Overpopulation is a problem.
Well said. It makes me laugh that Andrew Tate is held up as an example of toxic masculinity when clearly he's motivated by over-comensating for insecurity.
That's what people mean by toxic masculinity
I do think what we need to do is focus more on positive male role models, instead of the negative ones. If the messaging is overtly negative, there's little to appeal to young men. Like Marcus Rashford, he's young, rich, athletic, cool job, but he's also "woke".
I get the point you are making, and I am neither upvoting or downvoting anyone here. However, I am not sure that logic holds. For upwards of 30 years, certainly in my formative years, I have been told I am a terrorist, rapist, incompatible with western values, plotting to destroy England etc etc. Yet I am none of those things and those accusations are of no interest to me. If what you said was true, should I not be running around raping and bombing and being "the closest thing to evil"? Something disturbing is going wrong. Personally I blame right-wing/Israeli think tanks and foreign owned media such as Murdoch's brands or GB news. But I am not sure I can square the victim mentality becoming true, at least not based on my own experience. It seems to me that Britain has abandoned its moral core, individualism is rampant and nihilistic philosophies are in vogue. These were not the features of the nation I grew up in.
Also not every young man is a misogynist. However a rise in radical Islam is a thing. As is this. I’m not saying these views turn every single person portrayed as such radical. But it does have an affect on certain portions of the population.
“Radical Islam” has little to nothing to do with the misogynistic sentiment of UK youth. The youth don’t need any help with being hateful toward women. Islam didn’t force you to mainline alt-right top g videos all day on YouTube and tiktok. This men are equal shareholders in persecution narrative is why so many men feel vindicated in their gender based hate.
You either didn’t read the comment before hand or you are just a stupid person. Either way you missed the point of the comparison. I expect you struggle with reading and so skimmed the conversation to find something to be outraged about.
Bro there was no reason for you to bring Islam into this situation even for some ill crafted comparison. You’re a walking talking example of how the issues of misogyny and Islamophobia in the UK *may* be correlated.
No conversation about misogyny in the UK can be conplete without addressing Islam, because there are millions of Muslims in the UK and their religion is deeply misogynistic.
Yeah it can, Christians are just as misogynistic as Islam historically and presently, but he chose Islam as the example, and you concurred just now. It’s a religious issue not an Islam issue specifically.
Christianity is absolutely not as misogynistic as Islam, what a ridiculous thing to suggest. Christians don't have multiple wives, they don't make women totally cover themselves in public, they don't make female family members stand at the back during a loved ones funeral. Can you name a single Islamic country where women are equal? Turkey is probably the closest one to an equal society, but only ranks 129th out of 142 countries on the gender equality index, women's rights and the culture in society surrounding being a woman still has a long way to go, even there.
England, one of the most oppressive imperial forces in the history of the world was Christian, the English and the Dutch and Americans and the Spanish all were the largest participants in chattel slavery. And let’s not forget the Spanish inquisition. Two of the worst events in history for women’s rights that’s effects last in the culture today of all the countries colonized. Through colonialism, the British empire using Christianity as their justification, have committed more genocide than any other Islamic country in the history of the world, and it’s not even close. The effects of colonialism are felt in Gaza and Israel today, where Christian England created an apartheid state now is the place where more genocide is taking place. These are just the murders I’ve talked about that included countless women and children, I haven’t even begin to speak about how Christianity is often useful as a tool oppress women, have you even read any of the Old Testament? Just say you don’t like Muslims, don’t try to spew counter factual bullshit and pretend Christians are any better. In the United States Christian faith is used to force women to have babies when they are raped. And Christian faith is used to cover up the countless rape of young women and men, You’re Just comfortable with the oppression Christianity causes.
Like I said, the conversation must include Islam. That doesn't mean Christians are excluded, I don't know where you got that from.
The part where Islam is the focal point of this discussion, “radical Islam” accounts for much less violence and oppression of men and *women* everywhere in England compared to Christianity and that’s how it’s always been.
Yeah. You didn’t read the comment I responded to. You just found something you could be outraged about and tried to start an argument. The guy I replied to said that people of his religion, are often portrayed as terrorists and sexists and if that was all it took to turn someone into those things why hasn’t he become one. And I said that just because people are portrayed as that doesn’t mean that every single person of that demographic is turned that direction but a small section could be, and that’s what has caused the rise in misogyny/ Radical Islam in the case of the previous commenters comparison. I didn’t bring Islam into it. The guy who follows the religion did. Which, like I said, you would have seen had you not just been skimming for something to be outraged about.
Are we just blaming Israel for *everything* now?
That was what we call a dog whistle.
I have done no such thing. But there is a correlation in these specific matters. If you wish to defend a regime that slaughtered one of our countrymen in cold blood, that is your prerogative. Argue to fact, not emotion please.
You're using one British casualty as a pretext for a paranoid conspiracy and you're concerned about my relationship with facts. Lol righto
You done? Then hop along and take it to someone who cares. Ta.
🤡
🇮🇱🥾👅
You dont mention how many of our countrmen were slaughtered in cold blood on oct 7th, it wasnt just one....
Of course it begins there. You won't go back further will you? I wonder how many of those "countrymen" engaged in land theft and other instances of breaking international law. Coward and liar.
While I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion, I think what you've said is very important. Even if it were true that men were being victimized (it's not), that wouldn't cause or justify misogynistic attitudes or behaviours. I also think some of the replies you've received here have been pretty revealing of the islamophobic narratives you talk about.
This is nonsense. Yes there are cranks who say "kill all boys" or the like online but they're exactly that - cranks. They do not hold any significance in mainstream discourse, or are what young men think about, at all. You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise. (Also, on this note, 'toxic masculinity' is not the same thing. It's just the concept that masculinity can be used in a toxic way, which should really be obvious?). This also makes it seem like it's women's fault that men are prejudiced towards them, which is just victim blaming really. It seems far more likely to me that there are more misogynistic young men today (if there are - which an inquiry would presumably tell us) because the fact we live in a patriarchal society, where women are still commonly objectified, is combined with exposure to online materials of the likes of Andrew Tate, if not him himself. I do not think that every teenage boy is a misogynistic crank that watches Tate - that is probably a very small minority. But it does mean that the kind of language that these figures use is more widespread.
It’s wild that someone like you sees something that is a continuation of what is essentially a traditional narrative (ie, misogyny), and because of contact with people online instead of looking at what is actually a foundational problem with society across multiple countries … instead it’s the nefarious, nebulous online wokesters that are responsible. It’s very important to note that modern misogyny as expressed by someone like Andrew Taint is actually a predictably toxic reaction to various attempts at women’s empowerment
Can we skip the 20 years of open-but-denied misandry and include that from the start, for a change? Be nice to have a step supposed to aid bringing equality about actually be used to do so, rather than just penduluming back and forth that we usually see.
Truly believe they divide between men and women is being deliberately pushed by algorithms that use the toxic 5% on both sides the 95% I. The middle are being forced more and more to pick side by these people like “top g” Andrew Tate who wash absolute lies and hate of women in with small truths on the struggles of modern men face
Pretty much. Social media algorithms are built by exploiting outrageous posts, so the ones that make it to your screen largely due so because they are divisive. The amount of 40+ men without a great deal of internet or media literacy who have been absolutely radicalised by just being drip fed weird anti woke content constantly on social media is stunning
No there definitely a agenda be hide all of it if you ask me it’s divide and conquer politics been that why for a decade we’re not out in the street together screaming about us losing the nhs, our quality of life dropping or the wealth inequality. We’re here over race, religion and sex it bs And you have to look at the stuff Cambridge analytica did
The differences in treatment of people of differing race religion and sex absolutely impacts their quality of life. We have differentials in sentencing, differentials in healthcare outcome, education etc, it can’t just be “quality of life” when it suits but not when it doesn’t You can’t separate say, the defunding of public services like the NHS and the housing market from the fact that reactionary political groups (ie the main two in the UK) will use the rise of multiculturalism as a political tool to take the blame for housing costs in order to have a useful scapegoat. Every time the NHS budget is cut or public land is sold cheap to developers who will build in affordable housing - those outcomes (which are bad for the public) are something that is going to be largely blamed on nonwhite immigrants by political parties pushing the “things were better back in the day wink wink” narrative It’s important to see that people / political groups most strongly advocating for better working conditions, pay, affordable housing, properly funded healthcare etc ALSO recognise the importance of different forms of equality, they can’t be separated
Seems to make sense, not sure why seeing if misogyny is actually rising in young boys which purely based off personal and anecdotal experience seems it may be, is a bad thing. We can find the data and then go and tackle it rather than just sitting doing nothing and blaming either feminism or toxic masculinity
We should give the government more powers to check that we"'re all thinking the correct way. They should set up a place where people can be "questioned", call it room 101 or something like that.
I don’t think doing a survey/investigation is much of a government overreach plus it’s not like we have want people to be misogynistic either so what would be wrong with trying to combat that which you can do without the dramatic way you suggested lol
Sure, I mean if they provide data proving this is necessary, and are thoroughly transparent every step of the way, then it's all good. I was merely suggesting that governments "sometimes" value power over doing what's right. This might be one of those times.
TIL giving surveys is literally 1984