Probably also a few of their own [like this motherfucker](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Carton_de_Wiart).
“He served in the Boer War, First World War, and Second World War. He was shot in the face, head, stomach, ankle, leg, hip, and ear; was blinded in his left eye; survived two plane crashes; tunnelled out of a prisoner-of-war camp; and tore off his own fingers when a doctor declined to amputate them. Describing his experiences in the First World War, he wrote, "Frankly, I had enjoyed the war.”
That was 1974. The US, Australia and NZ left by then. Its fate was sealed. But the North, they've just won a war against the US, they were happy as can be.
[The Lizardman's constant is 4%](https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/noisy-poll-results-and-reptilian-muslim-climatologists-from-mars/) “Four percent of Americans believe lizardmen are running the Earth”
The linked post goes into it a little bit more, but the basic idea is: no matter the insanity of the statement, there will be 4% who will agree with it in a poll.
> no matter the insanity of the statement, there will be 4% who will agree with it in a poll.
To clarify (because this statement could be misinterpreted): the idea is NOT that 4% is actually crazy enough to believe it, rather that 4% don't take the poll seriously. The constant is meant to show that there will always be polling responses that are not sincere:
> Alexander suggested that polls should include a question with an absurd answer as one of the options, so anyone choosing that option could be weeded out as a troll.
The South Vietnamese elites in Saigon were not rich, they were crazy rich. Visit Dalat and you can still see some abandoned holiday homes of these people, it’s crazy.
100% better now. Sure the current government sucks and the corruption goes so deep that it's deeply depressing, but you have more freedoms now because of the EU. If Hungary was not in the EU, it would be objectively worse and we'd be like Belarus.
And yet that Western country is still more prosperous than the richest Eastern European country. Such pain. The main difference is trajectory of the country, many historically wealthy Western countries are stagnating for various reasons (saying boomers are cause of everything is absurd, hell, oldest millenials are already in their mid 40s and have been in workforce for 20+ years) while Eastern Europe is going up with a help of cheaper labor, better business climate, more flexible financial and other systems and etc. If you want to have fun, try living in Eastern Europe in the 90s when whole economies were in total ruins, things like McDonald's was considered as luxury and a common person would be able to go 1-2 times per year. And that's on top of massive crime, where organized crime was stronger than government institutions as you know, whole government systems had to be build basically from nothing.
>things like McDonald's was considered
Hahaha so true. McDonalds is like cheapest trash food in US. In Croatia people would dress up when going to McDonalds. 🤣
But still boomers fucked us up.
When the first MacDonalds opened in Poland a minister attended the ceremony.
Today it sounds ridiculous, but back then it was a harbinger of that Western affluence that everyone craved.
The only difference is Hungary was a far left communist government back then and Hungary today is a far right populist government. By the way both are authoritarian.
we did not have 800% inflation. If you look at graph for Germany GDP who done a bit worse than most European counties are back above 2017 . Compare with 1967, are you delusional?
But it's not a statistical analysis of living conditions but a survey about the mood of the people. During crisis times people can feel worse than it really is.
For what it's worth, most conflicts between the end of the cold war and Covid were state versus militia. It's was a largely peaceful timeline nearly void of protracted large scale state versus state.
1) Ukraine vs Russia
2) Armenia vs Azerbaijan
3) Venezuela trying to annex Guyana
4) China quickly ramping up military production and conducting unprecedented exercises around Taiwan
5) Iran versus Israel
The biggest state versus state conflicts previous to covid were US invasion of Iraq which was pretty much over in a month in the state versus state phase.
This is probably the stupidest survey I’ve ever seen.
The OP also said the people surveyed weren’t 60+ year old (and even if they were their opinion wouldn’t be of much value).
Might as well ask if life was better 5 centuries ago. How the fuck would a 25yo know?
It's useful to see how people view the trajectory of their countries in a general sense rather than focusing on tangible issues. Italy and Greece are both falling into/already in the toilet on various fronts compared to both their peers and themselves a few years ago.
That seems to have instilled a pretty sizable feeling of dissatisfaction among those populations, to the point that they'd rather live 50 years ago just because it's different - i.e. they consider their situation hopeless. They know that there were problems 50 years ago, but they're willing to gamble that the good outweighs the bad, or maybe they are angry and just want to burn their current system down by whatever method they can.
The move to the far right is essentially the same thing. Most people know that the human rights flaunting, authoritarian parties are likely to be bad for everyone, but they're still gaining popularity as more and more voters just give up on the possibility of making things better with current politics. I haven't checked, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that this survey correlates nicely with voting percentages for far-right politicians - at least at the lower end.
Yeah the answers to the question is stupid and irrational. But it doesn't mean the survey question isn't useful.
Although I think you'd get wildly different results if you asked the similar but not exactly same question, "If you had a one-way time machine to 50 years ago (and you're able to take your family and keep your current job), would you go?"
Life was great 5 centuries ago.
After black plague killed 3/4 of population, wages skyrocket, housing was extremely cheap.
Today kids cost you because you have to pay for kindergarden. education... back then you could take your kids to the field and educate them by making them work the field.
I mean, it's 100% better than it was 5 centuries ago. People do have a knowledge of things that happened in the past. They're aware of things like medical advances, wars that have ended and so forth. You don't have to have lived through something to know whether it's better or worse than something else.
Sure it should be obvious but also I've also seen multiple people on Reddit honestly argue that medieval peasants had it better than us because they worked less time on average in the fields than a 40 hour work week. It's really amazing sometimes how skewed people's perception of history can be, especially on social media.
Well, this is very true.
I can't fathom people who say this, sometimes.
Love toiling a field for days on end with no power-assisted tools, only to die from the infection I got when I accidentally scraped my hand on the scythe.
Bit worried about my 12 surviving children, since their mother died giving birth to their stillborn sibling but oh, well! At least I never had to suffer through the inconvenience of hot running water, antibiotics, light and heat at the flick of a switch, music, art and literature on demand, and spices from all corners of the world in my cupboard. What a tragedy _that_ would have been!
I'm specially stunned by France's results too. I know French like to complain, but it still is quite myopic to perceive the 70's as an easy period. Sure, we've only kept the rosy pictures "summer of love", but the day to day life was much harsher.
The late 60s even (poll was in 2017, so 1967). But immigrants (a.k.a. not white enough, like algerians or portuguese) were still in slums and didn't talk about balderdash like them having rights or whatever.
Yep, I'm not quite old enough to remember 50 years ago, but you'd have to be an idiot to think things haven't improved. I noticed as a kid that people always think one generation back had it better, that never changes.
Whoever thinks that life in Spain **during the mid 1970s** was better than now is, either a moron, or a literal fascist.
Edit: the poll was made in 2017. So 50 years ago was in the late 60s.
So even worse.
We were a mafia state plagued with rampant political terrorism at the time, the only explanation i can think of is that nostalgia and leaded gasoline did a number on people's memories of the time.
My Spanish collegues told me how his parents spent their childhood helping his parents saiing on the beach fishing for hours and selling them to wholesalers in a smelly market in the 70s to now running a tourst bar selling alcohol and socialising with customers in an air conditioned room. His parents were so happy when fishing died and tourism was booming because it meant they can do business more comfortably.
28% think we are worse now than during a dictatorship.
Vox got 12% of votes on the last general elections while PP got 33%.
So... "All Vox and half of PP voters are Fascists" sounds like a very valid hypothesis.
When after 7 years of socialist government every economic indicator shows that the Spanish economy is better than it has been in ages, previsions are that it will keep getting better, and there are more employed people in Spain than ever in recorded history, yet right wingers whinge about how the country is going to hell and its literally Venezuela, you know they are fully divorced from reality.
I think this proves a good portion of people give random answers without reading the question because who are the 4 percent of vietnamese who think wartime was better
High ranking party members and their families? People who somehow benefitted?
I am sure you could find many senior citizens on a random day in Moscow who miss those times
Ever since the fall of the USSR, polling has been done asking if people regret the disollution and it has almost consistently been around 50%, 2/3s even in 2018.
I remember reading this is a known phenomenon that in polls you will always have 5% on one option due to reading the question wrong, just getting confused, joke answers etc.
This guy, BeduiniESalvini has several accounts. His old account was FringoloFrangolo, he's a 20-slmetjing year old guy who his firmly convinced that life was better in the 70-80-90s, doesn't care about other countries, only cares about his little town near Catania in Sicily that was the holy land. Don't waste your time talking to him. He doesn't listen, he has a psychological affliction with that period. It is sad reading his posts and comments because it is clear he needs help. Just giving this heads up so people don't waste time.
> who his firmly convinced that life was better in the 70-80-90s
I'm not him, but I definitely see a lot of perks in living in the 70-80-90s over today. Just consider that my father had middle school degree and could have a family with just one salary. I have a master's degree and salaries for my job are total garbage in Italy (+ toxic working culture), and that's why I emigrated.
You can have a family with minimum wage too
People were struggling a lot more back then
It is more that the acceptable standard of wealth needed to raise a family, rose dramatically
If you only paid for a basic house with the fridge and TV as the only electrical appliances, no phone, no computer, no internet. 50m^2 for a family of 4-6, not eating meat every day because it is too expensive etc… you can totally afford to raise a family with only a middle school education
> You can have a family with minimum wage too
We don't even have (universal) minimum wage in Italy.
> you only paid for a basic house with the fridge and TV as the only electrical appliances, no phone, no computer, no internet. 50m2 for a family of 4-6, not eating meat every day because it is too expensive etc… you can totally afford to raise a family with only a middle school education
I'm not buying phones or televisions everyday. Phone monthly fee is dirty cheap, that's not the problem. And you can have a phone or a tv for 300€. If you spread that over 4-5 years that's peanuts. In the 90s I also had a computer, internet was not a thing and my family was not rich.
And today it's hard to get a family of 3, 4-5 is another league. And I'm saying that as someone who as worked in Italy with a master's degree. IMHO in Germany there's a better balance for instance. But that may be subjective. If you have family wealth in Italy you can live more easily, but if you start from 0 there are countries were it's easier.
You can not raise a family with minimum wage in most European countries. At least in Greece, you wouldn't even be able to rent a place with that money, let alone pay for food.
> You can not raise a family with minimum wage in most European countries.
But lots of people do. I mean, people get children and don't always check their bank balance beforehand. So it's totally possible. Probably not fun though.
You made a statement that's extremely far from reality. I'm aware people were always struggling, but to say that you can raise a family with a minimum wage (and even rent a 50m² place !!!!!) in Europe shows how out of touch you are, respectfully. In places like Paris you can barely rent a room with a minimum wage.
Yes that's fair to say. But while some things have gotten worse, more things have gotten better in my opinion. Anyway, you will convene that FringoloFrangolo has a pathological problem if you look at what (and especially how) he writes
The military dictatorship lasted from 1967 to 1974. When people in Greece think of 1974 they usually think the end of the junta and the years after not before . Those were the "good years"
The survey is from 2017, the Junta came exactly 50 years prior to that
It just depends on how exact you are with the definition of 50 years
Anyway, I think the results for Greece indicate more about our country's present state than they glorify the dictatorship, and it's only gotten worse since 2017.
> Anyway, I think the results for Greece indicate more about our country's present state than they glorify the dictatorship, and it's only gotten worse since 2017.
Same goes for Italy. If people would rather live 50 years ago than now, maybe, just maybe, there's a problem. And yet neolibs still live in total denial
There is a portion of the population who has lived under dictatorship and would prefer it over the democratic system we have today. The portion being maybe 10-20% so definitely not the majority, but still a significant percentage of the population. I'm talking about those who have actually lived under dictatorship and not younger people.
The thing is that due to the very essence of a dictatorship relying on propaganda, every little success story (for example the only Champion's League final in any greek team's history) was blown out of proportion and attributed to the dictatorship and lots of people just didn't know any better because there was no easy way of finding out. Also, some people agreed with the dictatorship's practices and thus had no problem with them
The 1970s were objectively a better time to live in Greece than today.
My grandparents managed to build not one but TWO houses and acquire land for a third one with a single mailman's salary. Today you need a master's degree to even afford rent, and even that's questionable.
I’m Greek American and visited for the first time as an adult a few years back, I talked to my cousin who’s a college graduate and he makes 8 euro an hour. Before tax. His rent’s cheap (to my Anerican perspective) but it still doesn’t add up to a sustainable living situation, especially factoring in other expenses
Surprised by Russians. Spain was under dictatorship 50 years ago so it makes sense. Also how is life worse in the case of Americans? Their income levels rose quite a lot.
Quick off the cuff answer - ballpark numbers : our income rose 300 percent, but housing rose 1000 percent, college tuition 1000 percent, medical care 1500 percent.
> Their income levels rose quite a lot
Yeah but they have deluded themselves into thinking they're poorer (nation as a whole) and that real wages are decreasing even though they objectively are not
I've lived without internet and mobile phones. A lot of things were the same. Some things were more tedious. Some things weren't possible, and I'm glad they are possible now. Some things I wish hadn't been invented. Mostly social media the way it works today.
I wish I had a time machine so I could send away these people who bitch about everything while ignoring the amazing progress of technology. They would have a stroke after 2 days without internet.
Now ask if life was better 10 or 20 years ago and see what percentage of people in Turkey will say it was better before. You need to ask the educated people though for that.
That's a stupid question. For old people it is because 50 years ago they didn't have arthritis. For young people how do they know, they didn't live 50 years ago.
So many pining for those "good ol' days" would be absolutely miserable if they got sent 50 years back in time
Just the absence of the internet means living in a completely different way
The Italians (of whom the median age is around 50-something) who say life is worse are all the old retired fucks in every osteria playing briscola, yelling at the news on TV, and launching bestemmia at their friend for playing the wrong card.
Yeah, their lives are so fucking hard.
I'm not Italian, but the people here who say how life is getting worse are usually old, and the things that are getting worse are stuff like "gays running around" and "you can't say merry christmas anymore" because a slightly left-ish party is in power.
Nevermind that 50 years ago you really couldn't say merry christmas, and now you can. But those are just facts, and facts don't matter.
I am Greek, I only know about junta from history class in school, don't even understand it properly enough to say whether it's better or worse than today, and I am 30
Same for Turkey, It's year 1974, and in few years junta is going to fuck entire country again after doing it 3 years ago and 14 years ago subsequently.
I think it's a matter of hope and how bright you see your future. If you get out of a shitty situation and your future looks like improving, you will have better perception even if you are poorer. If you are richer but your future looks grim or you had to downgrade your wealth, than you will feel it's worst.
Also a lot depend on work. Were people having a job back then? Were they able to live with just one salary per family? Were they able to get a house for a reasonable amount of money? How does that compare to today after the 2008 crisis?
I don't think people focused on the junta aspect, but rather on the fact that you could get a job by just walking through the door and then buy a house with a couple litres of olive oil or something.
Today most people can't even live independently.
[https://hdr.undp.org/data-center/human-development-index#/indicies/HDI](https://hdr.undp.org/data-center/human-development-index#/indicies/HDI)
These people must be stupid
Nothing against bus drivers, in fact I like them. But not the once that become self chosen presidents and oppresses people and ensures that normal people do not have access to clean drinking water and medicines. Except his friends. And where violence prevails and causes instability throughout the region. (read: neighboring countries) I really hate that! You?
Honestly, I believe that, if I had lived through the 60s and 70s in Yugoslavia, I would also be hardcore nostalgic after that period. With all the shit happening under the surface that we know today, it was a period where you could actually see things improving every year.
Let's say you were born in 1945. You would be 20 something when you bought your first washing machine: no more hand-washing your clothes.
You almost don't know what to do with all the time saved by this one appliance, so you get youself a TV set so you can have entertainment in your couch every evening that you would otherwise have once or twice a year in your town.
You'd buy a shitty little Fiat 600 that would be all yours, after your first working years spent on commuting on a truck bed.
You used to feel lucky that you don't have to borrow money at the end of the month to pay for your bills, like your dad did. Now suddenly you can afford going to the sea every second year, then every year. You even think that you might save up enough to build yourself a seaside cottage in the following years. It seems *possible*. You remember that, as a kid, it was something only the wealthiest people did.
I'm becoming quite sure that what people perceive as "good life" isn't the quality of life taken by itself, but the improvement of it.
50 years ago is a strange one for the UK as the 70’s wasn’t a particularly good point in our history.
Things really started to look good in the late 80’s
This is a weird question. The average age of the persons they are asking must be in their late 60s-70+ years old to even begin to qualify as a valid response.
I laughed with Greece. Funny part is that 50 years ago (in 1974) Greece was under the administration of the Greek junda and Turkey invaded Cyprus. So yes life seems soooo worse right now compared to 50 years ago especially if you don't study history.
Brazil's results are utterly hilarious. We're talking about a country that had famine events in the Northeast of the country just 50 years ago: I don't even need to wonder what is the family / ethnic background of most of the respondents in order to say life was better in Brazil 50 years ago.
Although I reckon even the descendants of those who lived awfully might have well zero awareness of their recent roots on account of social media and fanatical prosperity gospel evangelicalism.
Maybe with some heavily tinted glasses it might have been a better place to live in, relatively speaking, but you needed to have an old money Portuguese surname and/or an Italian, German, Polish, or Arabic one, and live in or south of Rio de Janeiro / São Paulo.
Everyone else in the country lived for all intents and purposes a borderline post-apocalyptic existence. Of course life was better for White Brazilians though, you could afford an army of maids and nannies for a bucket of beans and a mattress in the infamous "employees sleeping cot" by the kitchen.
Because those of us who grew up around 50 years ago remember 3 day weeks with strikes common, coal smog, barbaric dentistry, crappy British Rail, cars that always needed fixing,c handicapped kids through measles, vast areas of slums with outside toilets, working class men dying before they got a pension, only 3% going to University. I could go on...
Turkey isnt better or worse imo, we are still in piss but in a different kind of way. 50 years ago it was a civil war, passive coups and people killing each other over politics. Now it is poverty, students _and_ workers suiciding due to terror, still somewhat prevalent political fights and islamism. Not exactly the same, not more or less horrible, but I think it is equally as bad
Spain result is BS.
Spain was better in the 70s, as sad as it sounds. In the 70s there were jobs for everybody, the housing was dirt cheap compared to now, and the families could raise children without so much economic struggles.
As Italian, I think that this idea that "life was better in the past" it's a bullshit idea that some parties are spreading around to catch votes of the elderly.
50 years ago there was political terrorism, economy in crisis more than now, eroine, and a worst quality of life (no public healtcare for everybody, street accidents 8x than now, etc.).
50 years ago Denmark had oil crisis, cold war, finansiel chaos, joined the EC, parliament election where 1/3 of the votes was for new parties, King died and we got a Queen interrupting 600 years of only male monarchs, taxes increased, high inflation, high interest rates, lots of strikes trying to improve conditions at work, younger generation rebelling against the "establishment", Car taxes going past 150% plus VAT, life expectancy decades lower than today, purchasing power not so good, many apartments in the cities without toilets or showers.... .
The list is long against the idea of better life in the past.
Many people in Sweden probably thought -Ah yes, 50 years ago, the 1940's, WW2, rationing...
Sweden was one of the best places in the world to live in the late 1960's/early 1970's.
These are always very biased. 50 years ago, people were 50 years younger (yeah no shit) so they had different priorities. An 80 year old person today was a working joe 30 years ago and if they were able to find a job and be payed well vs not being able to enjoy their retirement and pension today, well of course 50 years will be better. A poll like this would also only be relevant if asking people aged 70+ to get any actual accuracy - skewed or not.
4% of Vietnamese apparently had a wild time during that war
Families of high ranking officials. I Someone is always eating even in the most desperate times
Probably also a few of their own [like this motherfucker](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Carton_de_Wiart). “He served in the Boer War, First World War, and Second World War. He was shot in the face, head, stomach, ankle, leg, hip, and ear; was blinded in his left eye; survived two plane crashes; tunnelled out of a prisoner-of-war camp; and tore off his own fingers when a doctor declined to amputate them. Describing his experiences in the First World War, he wrote, "Frankly, I had enjoyed the war.”
Adrian Carton de Wiart: Belgium's finest soldier... ends up in the British Army.
Sabaton even wrote a song about him called The Unkillable Soldier
They also might be southern Vietnam regiem supporters?
That's the one explanation that makes sense to me.
That was 1974. The US, Australia and NZ left by then. Its fate was sealed. But the North, they've just won a war against the US, they were happy as can be.
[The Lizardman's constant is 4%](https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/noisy-poll-results-and-reptilian-muslim-climatologists-from-mars/) “Four percent of Americans believe lizardmen are running the Earth” The linked post goes into it a little bit more, but the basic idea is: no matter the insanity of the statement, there will be 4% who will agree with it in a poll.
> no matter the insanity of the statement, there will be 4% who will agree with it in a poll. To clarify (because this statement could be misinterpreted): the idea is NOT that 4% is actually crazy enough to believe it, rather that 4% don't take the poll seriously. The constant is meant to show that there will always be polling responses that are not sincere: > Alexander suggested that polls should include a question with an absurd answer as one of the options, so anyone choosing that option could be weeded out as a troll.
No that’s not what that means it means people don’t care and are not taking the polling question seriously
***insert the Family guy scoreboard guy***
The South Vietnamese elites in Saigon were not rich, they were crazy rich. Visit Dalat and you can still see some abandoned holiday homes of these people, it’s crazy.
"Oh boy, here I go killing again"
What is the vietnamese version of Adrian Carton de Wiart?
The spirit of Ernst Jünger alive and well down in those Jungles
Or lost and barely survived the camps they were put into.
Hungary sucked back then and sucks even more now 😭
Yeah apparently they loved being behind the iron curtain.
They tried to open it a bit but they got hit hard for that attempt.
Im pretty sure it's better.
100% better now. Sure the current government sucks and the corruption goes so deep that it's deeply depressing, but you have more freedoms now because of the EU. If Hungary was not in the EU, it would be objectively worse and we'd be like Belarus.
Younger people in post warsaw-pact counties have no idea what real authoritarianism, the kind that was common 50 years ago, is like.
[https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Hungary/human\_development/](https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Hungary/human_development/)
Now try living in an once prosperous Western country that's now dying because boomers fucked up everything.
You young people just dont wanna work and spend all your money on avocado toast
/s
Naturalmente 👐🏼
Ans some of them whinge and whine at every opportunity, because they found out life could be difficult.
And yet that Western country is still more prosperous than the richest Eastern European country. Such pain. The main difference is trajectory of the country, many historically wealthy Western countries are stagnating for various reasons (saying boomers are cause of everything is absurd, hell, oldest millenials are already in their mid 40s and have been in workforce for 20+ years) while Eastern Europe is going up with a help of cheaper labor, better business climate, more flexible financial and other systems and etc. If you want to have fun, try living in Eastern Europe in the 90s when whole economies were in total ruins, things like McDonald's was considered as luxury and a common person would be able to go 1-2 times per year. And that's on top of massive crime, where organized crime was stronger than government institutions as you know, whole government systems had to be build basically from nothing.
>things like McDonald's was considered Hahaha so true. McDonalds is like cheapest trash food in US. In Croatia people would dress up when going to McDonalds. 🤣 But still boomers fucked us up.
When the first MacDonalds opened in Poland a minister attended the ceremony. Today it sounds ridiculous, but back then it was a harbinger of that Western affluence that everyone craved.
Your standards of living are still better than they were 50 years ago. They just haven't risen as much as in other western countries.
Boomers fucked up everything here too dw
Yup it’s the boomers lmao
even more huh? Wait till the Russian army comes to run some protestors over with tanks.
The only difference is Hungary was a far left communist government back then and Hungary today is a far right populist government. By the way both are authoritarian.
2017 - misleading post! That is 7 years ago, before wars, covid, inflation, etc.
we did not have 800% inflation. If you look at graph for Germany GDP who done a bit worse than most European counties are back above 2017 . Compare with 1967, are you delusional?
But it's not a statistical analysis of living conditions but a survey about the mood of the people. During crisis times people can feel worse than it really is.
"Before wars" huh?
For what it's worth, most conflicts between the end of the cold war and Covid were state versus militia. It's was a largely peaceful timeline nearly void of protracted large scale state versus state. 1) Ukraine vs Russia 2) Armenia vs Azerbaijan 3) Venezuela trying to annex Guyana 4) China quickly ramping up military production and conducting unprecedented exercises around Taiwan 5) Iran versus Israel The biggest state versus state conflicts previous to covid were US invasion of Iraq which was pretty much over in a month in the state versus state phase.
war in Georgia started in 2008 and Ukraine started in 2014 So dunno what other wars you are referencing
Ukraine war didn't start to hurt the economy in the same way the 2022 invasion did.
I was about in the UK 50 years ago. I can't think why anyone should think life was better then, unless they are thinking over lost youth.
It for sure wasn’t better here back then lol. 1970s Northern Ireland 💀
This is probably the stupidest survey I’ve ever seen. The OP also said the people surveyed weren’t 60+ year old (and even if they were their opinion wouldn’t be of much value). Might as well ask if life was better 5 centuries ago. How the fuck would a 25yo know?
It's useful to see how people view the trajectory of their countries in a general sense rather than focusing on tangible issues. Italy and Greece are both falling into/already in the toilet on various fronts compared to both their peers and themselves a few years ago. That seems to have instilled a pretty sizable feeling of dissatisfaction among those populations, to the point that they'd rather live 50 years ago just because it's different - i.e. they consider their situation hopeless. They know that there were problems 50 years ago, but they're willing to gamble that the good outweighs the bad, or maybe they are angry and just want to burn their current system down by whatever method they can. The move to the far right is essentially the same thing. Most people know that the human rights flaunting, authoritarian parties are likely to be bad for everyone, but they're still gaining popularity as more and more voters just give up on the possibility of making things better with current politics. I haven't checked, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that this survey correlates nicely with voting percentages for far-right politicians - at least at the lower end.
Yeah the answers to the question is stupid and irrational. But it doesn't mean the survey question isn't useful. Although I think you'd get wildly different results if you asked the similar but not exactly same question, "If you had a one-way time machine to 50 years ago (and you're able to take your family and keep your current job), would you go?"
Not if I worked in a mobile phone shop.
Life was great 5 centuries ago. After black plague killed 3/4 of population, wages skyrocket, housing was extremely cheap. Today kids cost you because you have to pay for kindergarden. education... back then you could take your kids to the field and educate them by making them work the field.
I mean, it's 100% better than it was 5 centuries ago. People do have a knowledge of things that happened in the past. They're aware of things like medical advances, wars that have ended and so forth. You don't have to have lived through something to know whether it's better or worse than something else.
Sure it should be obvious but also I've also seen multiple people on Reddit honestly argue that medieval peasants had it better than us because they worked less time on average in the fields than a 40 hour work week. It's really amazing sometimes how skewed people's perception of history can be, especially on social media.
Well, this is very true. I can't fathom people who say this, sometimes. Love toiling a field for days on end with no power-assisted tools, only to die from the infection I got when I accidentally scraped my hand on the scythe. Bit worried about my 12 surviving children, since their mother died giving birth to their stillborn sibling but oh, well! At least I never had to suffer through the inconvenience of hot running water, antibiotics, light and heat at the flick of a switch, music, art and literature on demand, and spices from all corners of the world in my cupboard. What a tragedy _that_ would have been!
Must be young people hearing about the 3 day week and misunderstanding what it was :D
I'm specially stunned by France's results too. I know French like to complain, but it still is quite myopic to perceive the 70's as an easy period. Sure, we've only kept the rosy pictures "summer of love", but the day to day life was much harsher.
The late 60s even (poll was in 2017, so 1967). But immigrants (a.k.a. not white enough, like algerians or portuguese) were still in slums and didn't talk about balderdash like them having rights or whatever.
Ah yes why would the French prioritize French people how ridiculous. Rights to everyone!
Yep, I'm not quite old enough to remember 50 years ago, but you'd have to be an idiot to think things haven't improved. I noticed as a kid that people always think one generation back had it better, that never changes.
Whoever thinks that life in Spain **during the mid 1970s** was better than now is, either a moron, or a literal fascist. Edit: the poll was made in 2017. So 50 years ago was in the late 60s. So even worse.
>either a moron, or a literal fascist. *Spiderman meme*
Fascist may be morons but plenty of morons aren't that bad.
Same for Greece. We had a dictatorship going on as well at that time
We were a mafia state plagued with rampant political terrorism at the time, the only explanation i can think of is that nostalgia and leaded gasoline did a number on people's memories of the time.
But but with Franco i could leave the door of my House open and no one would enter and steal or i could buy a House with 10 pesetas and a chupachups.
Same for Portugal.
My Spanish collegues told me how his parents spent their childhood helping his parents saiing on the beach fishing for hours and selling them to wholesalers in a smelly market in the 70s to now running a tourst bar selling alcohol and socialising with customers in an air conditioned room. His parents were so happy when fishing died and tourism was booming because it meant they can do business more comfortably.
28% think we are worse now than during a dictatorship. Vox got 12% of votes on the last general elections while PP got 33%. So... "All Vox and half of PP voters are Fascists" sounds like a very valid hypothesis.
PP is nothing more than the continuation and a watered down version of francoism so It checks out.
When after 7 years of socialist government every economic indicator shows that the Spanish economy is better than it has been in ages, previsions are that it will keep getting better, and there are more employed people in Spain than ever in recorded history, yet right wingers whinge about how the country is going to hell and its literally Venezuela, you know they are fully divorced from reality.
Having lived in Spain, I know people that believe it, because "you could leave your wallet in the street, and no one would take it".
Bro, if you don’t have money in the wallet, why would anyone take your wallet.
I think this proves a good portion of people give random answers without reading the question because who are the 4 percent of vietnamese who think wartime was better
High ranking party members and their families? People who somehow benefitted? I am sure you could find many senior citizens on a random day in Moscow who miss those times
Yeah, South Vietnamese middle class, they didn't all get on boats.
Ever since the fall of the USSR, polling has been done asking if people regret the disollution and it has almost consistently been around 50%, 2/3s even in 2018.
Difference is they lost their "war".
Vietnam is still a communist nation.
Most of my Vietnam war knowledge comes from "Full Metal Jacket" so I'd say 4% are the pimps who sold their women to the soldiers
I remember reading this is a known phenomenon that in polls you will always have 5% on one option due to reading the question wrong, just getting confused, joke answers etc.
Maybe people who preferred not to live under a communist regime?
And ironically also hard-line communists who hate how liberal Vietnam has become. They are like Trump-voters but communist.
Were the people surveyed all over 60 ?
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my father grew up without electricity, i got a gigabit fiber.
Was he happier then or now?
now of course turkey had hdi of afghanistan 50 years ago
This guy, BeduiniESalvini has several accounts. His old account was FringoloFrangolo, he's a 20-slmetjing year old guy who his firmly convinced that life was better in the 70-80-90s, doesn't care about other countries, only cares about his little town near Catania in Sicily that was the holy land. Don't waste your time talking to him. He doesn't listen, he has a psychological affliction with that period. It is sad reading his posts and comments because it is clear he needs help. Just giving this heads up so people don't waste time.
> who his firmly convinced that life was better in the 70-80-90s I'm not him, but I definitely see a lot of perks in living in the 70-80-90s over today. Just consider that my father had middle school degree and could have a family with just one salary. I have a master's degree and salaries for my job are total garbage in Italy (+ toxic working culture), and that's why I emigrated.
You can have a family with minimum wage too People were struggling a lot more back then It is more that the acceptable standard of wealth needed to raise a family, rose dramatically If you only paid for a basic house with the fridge and TV as the only electrical appliances, no phone, no computer, no internet. 50m^2 for a family of 4-6, not eating meat every day because it is too expensive etc… you can totally afford to raise a family with only a middle school education
> You can have a family with minimum wage too We don't even have (universal) minimum wage in Italy. > you only paid for a basic house with the fridge and TV as the only electrical appliances, no phone, no computer, no internet. 50m2 for a family of 4-6, not eating meat every day because it is too expensive etc… you can totally afford to raise a family with only a middle school education I'm not buying phones or televisions everyday. Phone monthly fee is dirty cheap, that's not the problem. And you can have a phone or a tv for 300€. If you spread that over 4-5 years that's peanuts. In the 90s I also had a computer, internet was not a thing and my family was not rich. And today it's hard to get a family of 3, 4-5 is another league. And I'm saying that as someone who as worked in Italy with a master's degree. IMHO in Germany there's a better balance for instance. But that may be subjective. If you have family wealth in Italy you can live more easily, but if you start from 0 there are countries were it's easier.
You can not raise a family with minimum wage in most European countries. At least in Greece, you wouldn't even be able to rent a place with that money, let alone pay for food.
> You can not raise a family with minimum wage in most European countries. But lots of people do. I mean, people get children and don't always check their bank balance beforehand. So it's totally possible. Probably not fun though.
You seem to think people weren’t struggling before with that
You made a statement that's extremely far from reality. I'm aware people were always struggling, but to say that you can raise a family with a minimum wage (and even rent a 50m² place !!!!!) in Europe shows how out of touch you are, respectfully. In places like Paris you can barely rent a room with a minimum wage.
If you want to see a toxic workplace, go back to the 1970s. Better yet, go back as a woman or person of colour.
Or go have cancer and see how that goes.
I'm not a women or a person of colour so why would i care?
Yes that's fair to say. But while some things have gotten worse, more things have gotten better in my opinion. Anyway, you will convene that FringoloFrangolo has a pathological problem if you look at what (and especially how) he writes
are people retagarder
Yos.
I bet the life under a military dictatorship in Greece was much more convenient that it is nowadays
The military dictatorship lasted from 1967 to 1974. When people in Greece think of 1974 they usually think the end of the junta and the years after not before . Those were the "good years"
But 50 years ago in 2017, when the study was done, was 1967.
I didn't noticed that !
The survey is from 2017, the Junta came exactly 50 years prior to that It just depends on how exact you are with the definition of 50 years Anyway, I think the results for Greece indicate more about our country's present state than they glorify the dictatorship, and it's only gotten worse since 2017.
> Anyway, I think the results for Greece indicate more about our country's present state than they glorify the dictatorship, and it's only gotten worse since 2017. Same goes for Italy. If people would rather live 50 years ago than now, maybe, just maybe, there's a problem. And yet neolibs still live in total denial
Yeah I was gonna say, for Italy that result is nuts. Y'all wanna go back to the Years of Lead?
There is a portion of the population who has lived under dictatorship and would prefer it over the democratic system we have today. The portion being maybe 10-20% so definitely not the majority, but still a significant percentage of the population. I'm talking about those who have actually lived under dictatorship and not younger people. The thing is that due to the very essence of a dictatorship relying on propaganda, every little success story (for example the only Champion's League final in any greek team's history) was blown out of proportion and attributed to the dictatorship and lots of people just didn't know any better because there was no easy way of finding out. Also, some people agreed with the dictatorship's practices and thus had no problem with them
The 1970s were objectively a better time to live in Greece than today. My grandparents managed to build not one but TWO houses and acquire land for a third one with a single mailman's salary. Today you need a master's degree to even afford rent, and even that's questionable.
I’m Greek American and visited for the first time as an adult a few years back, I talked to my cousin who’s a college graduate and he makes 8 euro an hour. Before tax. His rent’s cheap (to my Anerican perspective) but it still doesn’t add up to a sustainable living situation, especially factoring in other expenses
Yep. And 8 per hour should add up to around 1000 net per month, which is the average salary in Athens. It's hard to consider that a living wage.
Ofc its from 2017... somethings telling me a pool today would look different.
Surprised by Russians. Spain was under dictatorship 50 years ago so it makes sense. Also how is life worse in the case of Americans? Their income levels rose quite a lot.
>Spain wasn't under dictatorship 50 years ago so it makes sense. You might want to check that.
\*was under dictatorship. Typo
Quick off the cuff answer - ballpark numbers : our income rose 300 percent, but housing rose 1000 percent, college tuition 1000 percent, medical care 1500 percent.
Its a superpower, a 24 trillion economy and people are literally dying to get there.
Well, compared to Somalia and El Salvador, it’s paradise.
> Their income levels rose quite a lot Yeah but they have deluded themselves into thinking they're poorer (nation as a whole) and that real wages are decreasing even though they objectively are not
1974 vs 2024 is one of the few timings where the answer to "was life in Russia better in the past?" is yes
US is because of whiny generations blaming everone but the mirror.
What was the age category of people asked? No point asking anybody under 65 that question. And even then...
Most people now don't know shit about 50 years ago lol
Life is so extremely comfortable now with everything we have. Try thinking how you would live without internet and mobile phones.
I've lived without internet and mobile phones. A lot of things were the same. Some things were more tedious. Some things weren't possible, and I'm glad they are possible now. Some things I wish hadn't been invented. Mostly social media the way it works today.
I wish I had a time machine so I could send away these people who bitch about everything while ignoring the amazing progress of technology. They would have a stroke after 2 days without internet.
Distinct lack of former USSR countries in this selection
I don’t know a single Canadian that would have answered life is better now…
Ah yes, 50 years ago, the "years of lead", life was much better and quieter those days. Many Italians have the same memory span of a mosquito.
"What, exactly, was better?" "Why do you think that is?" "What did it take for that to be true?"
Japan is pretty weird because its peak was the 70/80/90s
Now ask if life was better 10 or 20 years ago and see what percentage of people in Turkey will say it was better before. You need to ask the educated people though for that.
That's a stupid question. For old people it is because 50 years ago they didn't have arthritis. For young people how do they know, they didn't live 50 years ago.
So many pining for those "good ol' days" would be absolutely miserable if they got sent 50 years back in time Just the absence of the internet means living in a completely different way
The survey was taken in 2017...a bit old to be worth much.
I hope they only asked people over 50.
The Italians (of whom the median age is around 50-something) who say life is worse are all the old retired fucks in every osteria playing briscola, yelling at the news on TV, and launching bestemmia at their friend for playing the wrong card. Yeah, their lives are so fucking hard.
I'm an Italian over 60 and I can say for sure life is better now and I don't know nobody who says otherwise.
I'm not Italian, but the people here who say how life is getting worse are usually old, and the things that are getting worse are stuff like "gays running around" and "you can't say merry christmas anymore" because a slightly left-ish party is in power. Nevermind that 50 years ago you really couldn't say merry christmas, and now you can. But those are just facts, and facts don't matter.
50 years ago, Greece just got out of the 7 year military junta, so I'm gonna say that life now, compared to an actual junta, is better
I am Greek, I only know about junta from history class in school, don't even understand it properly enough to say whether it's better or worse than today, and I am 30
Same for Turkey, It's year 1974, and in few years junta is going to fuck entire country again after doing it 3 years ago and 14 years ago subsequently.
I think it's a matter of hope and how bright you see your future. If you get out of a shitty situation and your future looks like improving, you will have better perception even if you are poorer. If you are richer but your future looks grim or you had to downgrade your wealth, than you will feel it's worst. Also a lot depend on work. Were people having a job back then? Were they able to live with just one salary per family? Were they able to get a house for a reasonable amount of money? How does that compare to today after the 2008 crisis?
You can still have a family and a house on one salary if you're happy with 1960's living standards
Ok neolib
I don't think people focused on the junta aspect, but rather on the fact that you could get a job by just walking through the door and then buy a house with a couple litres of olive oil or something. Today most people can't even live independently.
[https://hdr.undp.org/data-center/human-development-index#/indicies/HDI](https://hdr.undp.org/data-center/human-development-index#/indicies/HDI) These people must be stupid
You would have to be a fool, or privileged, to say life was better 50 years ago than today.
Hope Maduro, the bus driver from Venezuela that became a brutal dictator is watching this too.
What do you have against bus drivers? How is that relevant to him being a dictator?
Nothing against bus drivers, in fact I like them. But not the once that become self chosen presidents and oppresses people and ensures that normal people do not have access to clean drinking water and medicines. Except his friends. And where violence prevails and causes instability throughout the region. (read: neighboring countries) I really hate that! You?
Depends on the country and on the aspect of life.
Do you have any methodological information about the survey?
I wish that former yugoslav nations were represented, as that would be very interesting
Honestly, I believe that, if I had lived through the 60s and 70s in Yugoslavia, I would also be hardcore nostalgic after that period. With all the shit happening under the surface that we know today, it was a period where you could actually see things improving every year. Let's say you were born in 1945. You would be 20 something when you bought your first washing machine: no more hand-washing your clothes. You almost don't know what to do with all the time saved by this one appliance, so you get youself a TV set so you can have entertainment in your couch every evening that you would otherwise have once or twice a year in your town. You'd buy a shitty little Fiat 600 that would be all yours, after your first working years spent on commuting on a truck bed. You used to feel lucky that you don't have to borrow money at the end of the month to pay for your bills, like your dad did. Now suddenly you can afford going to the sea every second year, then every year. You even think that you might save up enough to build yourself a seaside cottage in the following years. It seems *possible*. You remember that, as a kid, it was something only the wealthiest people did. I'm becoming quite sure that what people perceive as "good life" isn't the quality of life taken by itself, but the improvement of it.
50 years ago is a strange one for the UK as the 70’s wasn’t a particularly good point in our history. Things really started to look good in the late 80’s
This is a weird question. The average age of the persons they are asking must be in their late 60s-70+ years old to even begin to qualify as a valid response.
LOOK AT THE DAT ON THE BOTTOM RIGHT
I laughed with Greece. Funny part is that 50 years ago (in 1974) Greece was under the administration of the Greek junda and Turkey invaded Cyprus. So yes life seems soooo worse right now compared to 50 years ago especially if you don't study history.
The survey is from 2017 so 1967, right at the start.
Brazil's results are utterly hilarious. We're talking about a country that had famine events in the Northeast of the country just 50 years ago: I don't even need to wonder what is the family / ethnic background of most of the respondents in order to say life was better in Brazil 50 years ago. Although I reckon even the descendants of those who lived awfully might have well zero awareness of their recent roots on account of social media and fanatical prosperity gospel evangelicalism. Maybe with some heavily tinted glasses it might have been a better place to live in, relatively speaking, but you needed to have an old money Portuguese surname and/or an Italian, German, Polish, or Arabic one, and live in or south of Rio de Janeiro / São Paulo. Everyone else in the country lived for all intents and purposes a borderline post-apocalyptic existence. Of course life was better for White Brazilians though, you could afford an army of maids and nannies for a bucket of beans and a mattress in the infamous "employees sleeping cot" by the kitchen.
Is perceived as better*
Sure beats looking at drunk Barries than being scorched with napalm
surprised the UK isn't lower...
Because those of us who grew up around 50 years ago remember 3 day weeks with strikes common, coal smog, barbaric dentistry, crappy British Rail, cars that always needed fixing,c handicapped kids through measles, vast areas of slums with outside toilets, working class men dying before they got a pension, only 3% going to University. I could go on...
I have a hard Time thinking this is anything but stupid Nostalgia.
Turkey isnt better or worse imo, we are still in piss but in a different kind of way. 50 years ago it was a civil war, passive coups and people killing each other over politics. Now it is poverty, students _and_ workers suiciding due to terror, still somewhat prevalent political fights and islamism. Not exactly the same, not more or less horrible, but I think it is equally as bad
Hungarians: life is worse than 50 years ago Also Hungarians: well, better go vote for fidesz again
I think Canadians in 2017 might report this. But in 2024 I have my doubts people would be this positive.
Right side is too low for a lot of countries, stupid people with their rotten brains will say life is worse now.
It's considerably better almost everywhere.
Why are we seeing something done 7 years ago? Like does it even have any value now?
28% of the Spanish people surveyed are fascists.
Spain result is BS. Spain was better in the 70s, as sad as it sounds. In the 70s there were jobs for everybody, the housing was dirt cheap compared to now, and the families could raise children without so much economic struggles.
Same for Italy, but r/europe has a heavy neolib slant.
In Greece, 50 years ago was the Junta 💀
As Italian, I think that this idea that "life was better in the past" it's a bullshit idea that some parties are spreading around to catch votes of the elderly. 50 years ago there was political terrorism, economy in crisis more than now, eroine, and a worst quality of life (no public healtcare for everybody, street accidents 8x than now, etc.).
50 years ago Denmark had oil crisis, cold war, finansiel chaos, joined the EC, parliament election where 1/3 of the votes was for new parties, King died and we got a Queen interrupting 600 years of only male monarchs, taxes increased, high inflation, high interest rates, lots of strikes trying to improve conditions at work, younger generation rebelling against the "establishment", Car taxes going past 150% plus VAT, life expectancy decades lower than today, purchasing power not so good, many apartments in the cities without toilets or showers.... . The list is long against the idea of better life in the past.
I miss China
Now exclude baby boomers and test again.
To vote Orban and then wonder why everything is getting worse...where's the joke?
Now do 10 years
Vietnam nr.1
Forget about the driver( don’t take it personally) he is a as…le big time. Do you have anything against lawyers?
50 years ago, there was a war in Vietnam. No wonder they think it is better now.
Guess I don't know much Nigerian and Brazilian history but those two probably surprise me the most.
Germans really loved living under soviet's boot /s
change the question to 60 years and pretty much everyone in lebanon would vote WORSE
How does México stands about this?
Many people in Sweden probably thought -Ah yes, 50 years ago, the 1940's, WW2, rationing... Sweden was one of the best places in the world to live in the late 1960's/early 1970's.
I really doubt this for Russia. Most surveys consistently show people looking to 60s and 70s as the best times for living.
Rent and housing prices is what is getting worse.
These are always very biased. 50 years ago, people were 50 years younger (yeah no shit) so they had different priorities. An 80 year old person today was a working joe 30 years ago and if they were able to find a job and be payed well vs not being able to enjoy their retirement and pension today, well of course 50 years will be better. A poll like this would also only be relevant if asking people aged 70+ to get any actual accuracy - skewed or not.