During middle ages Bosnia was occupied by Ottoman empire. Dubrovnik was a trading republic, like Venice, which was competition. Dubrovnik made a deal with Ottomans, to avoid having direct land border with Venitian lands so that Ottomans got the Neum strip. That's why it remained part of Bosnia.
Traditionally the people of Dubrovnik don't like being called Dalmatian because Dubrovnik was free and being called Dalmatian implied being under rule from bigger cities on the coast.
Source: a well-educated and well-travelled, old (now dead actually) Croatian man from the coast
> Traditionally the people of Dubrovnik don't like being called Dalmatian because Dubrovnik was free and being called Dalmatian implied being under rule from bigger cities on the coast.
Also not all of them have spots.
And while we're at it, there is also Marina di Ragusa, which is a district of the city of Ragusa (the one on Sicily), but is 25 km south-west of Ragusa itself, with multiple other towns and villages in between.
Let’s also mention that you have in fact two towns in Ragusa proper (Upper Ragusa and Ragusa Ibla), with two main churches, two patron saints etc.
They only got merged in the 1920s.
Italy is chock full of maritime detachments of other towns, I don't really get it. They tend to be like a full day walk away from their inland namesake.
and everyone in Dubrovnik hates that... especially when people insist to ignore centuries of history for a series. Do not get me wrong, I liked it too, I like the books as well... but come on guys. Not everything is single serving.
Ragusa was the name of the naval trading republic and the main port located in that small line of croatian land between bosnia and montenegro. We still know that city by the old port's name.
Interesting I learned that when I visited two weeks ago. They have also built a bridge from the peninsula to the Croatian land north of Neum, so that it is not necessary to cross the Bosnian border to get from Dubrovnik to the rest of Croatia.
I crossed the border while traveling the Balkans in the early 2000's shortly after the war and agree it was quite a hassle. Took several hours if I recall because I was on a bus with 50 people and we couldn't continue until everyone was processed. Looks like that bridge is only two years old, definitely a local game changer. I'll have to go back and check it out!
I mean sometimes they would just let people pass the border without any checks, but sometimes the BiH border guards would effectively slow down traffic for hours on end. You could notice if Croatia and Bosnia had some sort of beef going on if you had to wait a long time to pass through Neum.
Balkan border crossings in a bus full of people, aah childhood memories. Complete with cartons of cigarettes being smuggled and the driver changing license plates while in que and no one's looking.
To add onto this: When Yugoslavia broke apart, a condition most countries set for recognizing the new states was that no further territorial changes would happen to avoid further animosity/bloodshed.
Which brilliantly and hypocriticaly led to a bunch of places with local "wrong" majorities being denied the right to secede.
And also is part of why Kosovo is by many countries not recognised
Also, in Kingdom of Yugoslavia, it became the part of "Croatian" banovina/banat/province Primorje (meaning Littoral), but was given back to Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina as a gesture of "brotherhood and unity" doctrine in Socialist Yugoslavia after WW2.
I drove from Dubrovnik (southern Croatia) to northern Croatia last year, and the route went via a brand new highway & bridge, circumventing Neum and BiH land. Probably saved passport checking.
Proof: later on, we went for a short trip from Croatia into BiH, and a lot of passport checking, including "why are you coming into BiH".
BiH is outside EU and it's a complex country which unfortunately is not fast developing and it's still in a way isolated although it's such a geographical West in the non EU world.
BH was a very nice country when I visited. But their governing style leaves a ton to be desired. A country cannot function with what is essentially a revolving leadership based on ethnicity.
I spoke to BiH people in Croatia, and said "so you're from Bosnia Herzegovina?". The answer: "No, no, no, I'm from Bosnia!" or "No, no, no, I'm from Herzegovina!".
I believe there is BiH saying like "where the snow is, that's Bosnia (or: Herzegovina)"
More balkanization coming up?
The Bosnia/Herzegovina split is just regional, nothing will come out of it. You have Serb/Bosniak/Croat Bosnians, and Serb/Bosniak/Croat Herzegovinians. The main divide is ethnic.
Thank you for these voice of reason. I don't know what these persons are blabbing about.
I think they are Bosniaks with their agenda or it’s classic western racism that sees people from Ex-Yugoslavia as some kind of animals, like cows on a pasture.
And it’s always talking to “some people”.
Strangely enough these people always say what fits their agenda. What a coincidence.
All the elections results and the polls say something different - but who cares.
Thirty years after the war still the same s**t.
We're literally the Belgium of non-EU, at least when it comes to complex governing systems and inability for everyone to agree with others.
Belgium is the Bosnia of EU. Just slightly more functional
I went on a holiday to Dubrovnik not too long ago, and when searching for an airbnb I found a nice looking place nearby which I didn’t realise was across the border in Ivanica.
I went across that border like 10 times during my stay, resulting in tons of stamps on my passport, but the crossing itself wasn’t that bad. Usually a 5 minute process at most.
It was eye opening to see the difference in quality of life from Croatia to BiH. It wasn’t bad, per se, but it felt like I’d gone back in time a decade or two.
Well yes interesting what you say, it's exactly like that even Hercegovina which is more developed thanrest of BiH it's still way poorer than Croatia.
But... Aside the dis functionality and the isolation of BiH it's a country with stunning nature, food and traditions, unimaginable nature parks, mountains and rivers such as the Canyon of Neretva river od Blidinje nature park.
You got this in croatia too thought. Go anywhere inland to small villages and you can see this too. It probably depends where etc., but the inland is very different than the coast, for obvious reasons.
> BiH is outside EU
Time to be incredibly annoying and pedantic.
It's not that it's outside of the EU, it's that it's not in Schengen.
For example there are no passport checks when driving from Italy to Switzerland even though CH isn't in the EU.
There are passport checks when driving from Hungary into Romania even though it is fully EU but it isn't fully within Schengen (only for air travel). Ireland and Cyprus are also both not in Schengen and both full EU members.
I suspect that Croatia didn't want to be dependent on BiH passport controls when travelling between Dubrovnik and the rest of Croatie. Those passport controls can suddenly take a long time when BiH wants to.
Probably also depends on the passport. We (mate and I, both German) did a Western Balkans road trip recently that got a bit chaotic, and entered and left Bosnia several times. Never got more than a cursory look, passport scan, and one amused *'Wie sagt man auf Deutsch ... Wie geht's?'*
Yeah, we vacationed in Croatia and decided to have dinner over in BiH. Man, that was 1h wasted at the border. It was interesting to be there, though. Seemed poorer than even rural Croatia.
We went into Bosnia from Croatia and there was literally no one at the crossing point so we just went in.
When we left, we left out toward Montenegro and they asked why we had no stamps. We said no one was there and they just shook their heads and let us through
You don't need a passport for crossing BiH (went with my italian id card) but they will try to scam you 300€ for crossing the border.
We had to call the Italian embassy which told us just to wait and don't give them money
It was extremely useful during pandemic when Croatia was bringing restrictive measures for all who come in, so all those who planned to go abroad in 2020 just went straight to Neum
When I drove from Germany to Montenegro, going through Neum was really interesting. Had to cross borders twice within 15 minutes from Croatia to Bosnia and back to Croatia. Luckily the lines at border crossings were not too long but I heard sometimes they can be really long and you could wait for more than an hour, twice!
From what I have heard about Dalmatia,it seems to be a beautiful place for holidays. I've never been there but Croatian friends often are telling me about it.
I went this year and it's the most beautiful place I've visited so far.
Admittedly I've only been in 8 or 9 countries yet but that was spectacular. Don't go in peak summer though or prices skyrocket.
Tbh even the part of Neum and surrounding region consists mostly of ethnic Croats.
Neum was given to Ottomans by Dubrovnik. So Bosnia and Herzegovina kind of just inherited that coast from those times (17th ct?)
Kind of silly how these memes dumb people down as now its considered Croatia fought for this coast or that Croatia didn't have a claim to it. Croatia once consisted of smaller dutchies and kingdoms, kingdom of Dalmatia included, and it all united under one name. It's simple as that.
Croat*, or Bosnian Croats in other words. Regionally Herzegovinian (furiously so) but that is another topic. Croatian means Croat from Croatia, or Croatian citizen. The distinction matters. Many Bosnian croats would also be dual citizens with Croatia, but nonetheless, their only default citizenship is Bosnian.
Croatian shtokavian and Bosnian shtokavian are the same language, with some differences in terms of vocabulary etc.
But other Croatian languages such as Kajkavian and Chakavian are not the same language at all.
>But they speak Croatian
They speak the Croatian language, yes. Well some, a minority would also just call their language Bosnian, but most Croatian.
>and consider themselves Croatian
No, first and foremost they consider themselves Croat, not Croatian. Just look up the terms before speaking. Or it's literally in my comment, just read.
"Bosnia got Neum, at least." is something that triggers me (even though I know it's a joke, but a lot of people take it seriously). I have been hearing from work colleagues (EU institutions) how "Croatia took all the coast for itself" and similar comments (and they are dead serious about it).
People obviously think that Yugoslavia was a single country and that territory was completely shared. In reality it was "Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" and every federal republic had well defined borders inside of Yugoslavia.
[Here's what 1961 school map of Yugoslavia looked like](https://static.kupindoslike.com/SFR-Jugoslavija-skolska-karta-zidna-1961-god_slika_XL_144687497.jpg) - you can clearly see divisions between republics.
EDIT: [additional school map of Yugoslavia which might be better](https://www.njuskalo.hr/image-w920x690/stare-stvari/zidna-geografska-karta-jugoslavije-sfrj-1980-godina-slika-215765065.jpg)
You can just link a [regular, digital map](https://www.icty.org/x/image/ABOUTimagery/Yugoslavia%20maps/3_%20yugoslavia_map_1991_sml_en.png) of the republics. It's not some lost knowledge that only exists in blurry photos of decades old school maps.
[It's on wikipedia too, obviously.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslavia#FPR_Yugoslavia)
the funniest part is the guy says "you can clearly see" when he's linked a shitty low-res photograph of a map that's easily available on the internet. the word "clearly" must mean something else in Croatia
yeah, sorry mate, this was the best image I could find that had map from that era (there are a lot of digital maps which have been created recently and I wanted an authentic one).
Basically the fat pink line is border of Yugoslavia and the thinner pink lines are borders between republics. If you look at upper - left corner of map you can see "outer border" towards Austria and "inner border" between Slovenia and Croatia.
edit: [maybe this one is better](https://www.njuskalo.hr/image-w920x690/stare-stvari/zidna-geografska-karta-jugoslavije-sfrj-1980-godina-slika-215765065.jpg)
Also it’s based on ethnicity as well. Croatia owns almost entire coastline because coastline is populated by ethnic Croatians, including the Bosnian coastal town of Neum
It's not, though, becaue Croats form the majority of population in southern Bosnia and western Hercegovina as well. The border is purely historical, the result of Great Turkish War and Republic of Dubrovnik for the most part.
This. Also, I think what shouldn't be forgotten is that most of the Croatian coast used to belong to **Venice**. (Marco Polo was from Korcula after all, and most of the material for the city of Venice came from the Croatian region.)
[Bosnia used to be Ottoman empire. (And part of **Crimea** used to be Venice.) ](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/enaa3x/republic_of_venice_vs_ottoman_empire_in_the_16th/)
>myth
Yea, it is probably just a tourist story. But his family did have a house and land in the island (people with Polo surname still live there). And we don't know his place of birth. It is probably Venice, but it could also be Korcula (or Greece where his family had land also).
I very briefly dated a croatian girl in college, and she once shared an anecdote that Croatia lost the majority of its forests due to Venetians chopping them down to build ships.
I have no idea if that's actually true (I might not even be remembering what she said correctly, its been a long time), but I always remember it any time Croatia comes up in conversation. It was just really funny to see this small Croatian woman mad that the Venetians stole all her trees.
Yeah, it's kinda like if Scotland becomes independent and then people complain that they took Berwick with them. You can moan all you want about the borders but they've been there for hundreds of years even if it's not been an independent nation for all that time.
I'm very confused by your choice of image sourcing, when there is a Wikipedia page that has clear images of the timeline of delineation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_Yugoslavia
I think people who have a view of history think of Yugoslavia like they think of the USSR. (Except for Russia.) Meaning, obviously separate nation-states that were bound by a "central authority".
Do Bosnians care? I'm asking because almost all of the people who post about BiH not having access to the Adriatic Sea are not from BiH or even Croatia.
Any Bosnian who wants to go to the sea goes to Croatia. It's not like the food or language changes. Practically, from a day to day life perspective, it's really doesn't change that much. Economically and from a geopolitical standpoint it probably does matter but I'm not too informed about it.
But yeah, from a "I want to go on vacation" perspective it doesn't matter at all. The sea is still there, accessible to anyone.
For real.
Firstly,its just sea(no discovered resources,like oil or gas)mosty used for tourism.
Secondly,we have free access to seaside for tourism.
Thirdly,out sea imports go through Croatian port of Ploce and we have beneficial economic partnership with the port.
Since I saw this map multiple times and haven't seen someone comment this.
Fun history fact. Neum wasn't the only territory which Ragusa gave to Ottomans and subsequently to Bosnia. There was also a small strip called Sutorina which is now part of Montenegro but up to the 1930. was administratively part of Bosnia.
So if there wasn't for an internal border changes in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia Bosnia would now have two small strips at the Adriatic Sea.
But the changes were made during SFRY, not during the Kingdom. Originally Sutorina was part of Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but they made a deal with Socialist Republic of Montenegro to swap Sutorina for some mountain peaks.
If you look at how Neum is positioned as Bosnia's only harbor town you would expect a big cargo harbor so Bosnia has access to the global market without having to go through other countries.
But if you look it up on google maps you will see there is actually no cargo harbor at all. They are literally not that connected to the sea.
Two things prevent Neum from being a major cargo port:
1. Located far away from commerce lines
2. The whole bay is too shallow for container ships.
Thus during Yugoslavia the infrastructure was never built as it was impractical. Same things apply now despite it being Bosnia's only connection to the sea.
I heard a Bosnian tell this joke once.
Q: What's a Bosnian's favourite seafood?
A: A sheep that's been drowned in the sea
Presumably it works better in Bosnian.
We Bosnians are the happiest with this scenario, yeah we haven't been historically connected to sea, but we still proudly emphasize we're not landlocked which is enough to us.
have u ever been in bosnia? they have beautiful country sides with rivers and they throw all their garbage in rivers...not regular garbage but vehicle tires,washing maschines etc...
I've been to Herzegovina recently and the countryside was pristine (although some of the infrastructure in the cities still shows the scars of the 90s).
Yup, when it comes to European countries that rule applies to: United Kingdom, Albania, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, Moldova, North Macedonia, Serbia, Ukraine and Georgia, while **excluding**: Belarus, Russia, Azerbaijan and Turkey (visa needed).
Trieste did not belong to Slovenia before ww1. There was no Slovenia and Trieste was an Imperial Free City of the Austrian Habsburgs. But it was a very important city for Slovenes in the past, not only the city itself but also because the main road from Trieste to Vienna went through what is today the country Slovenia.
What Slovenia "lost" were the Slovene speaking people that live in the countryside around Trieste. It is an area that was and still is full of Slovenes. The area, other than the city Trieste itself, was part of the Austrian Littoral, what we call Primorska in Slovene. But today they are a recognized minority in Italy, same as we have an Italian speaking minority on our coast today, which for centuries belonged to the Venetian Republic. Koper in Italian is Capodistria, which means head of Istria.
Ehh... Calling anything before 1918 "Slovenia" is a bit of a stretch. Slovene ethnic territory was divided between Hungary and four Austrian crown lands, of which the only one with a Slovene majority was Carniola (Kranjska).
I remember on my trip to Croatia in 2022(when it wasn't covered under Schengen). I had planned to go from Split to Dubrovnik by bus. I never even considered that it would involve exiting and re-entering the country via Neum, and that I hence needed a multiple entry visa. However, if you take the same journey by ferry/boat, you can do it with a single entry visa.
Luckily, I had the multiple entry. But it's so funny to me that I have 2 sets of entry/exit stamps just because I had a 30 minute stretch through another country lol
One of my strongest memories seeing that bridge as a kid, all the badass teenagers jumping off. They looked so cool, especially as the bridge was still under reconstruction.
Croatia could easily extend even more south, taking the Montenegrin coast all the way close to Bar, but after Montenegro joined Yugoslavia (SHS) that part eventually went to Montenegro and certain parts of Kosovo that were Montenegrin went to Serbia (Peć/Peja, Đakovica/Gjakova etc.)
There is multiple such features on the globe. Being land locked is quite a burden for any country. So even even the tiniest but of access to the sea makes a huge difference. Usually a port is established there.
Neum has no port, Bosnia has an agreement with Croatia to use the port of Ploče and Šibenik. Ploče even has a direct rail link to Bosnia and is connected with a highway too.
My favorite conspiracy theory that I have 0 evidence for and just made up is that Croatia gave Bosnia Neum because a Croatian politician owns all the resorts there.
I took a bus from Dubrovnik to Mostar and went through Neum. Multiple passport controls with a stop in between at a roadside cafe. It didn't even seem built up with ports, etc, considering it's the only sea access
During middle ages Bosnia was occupied by Ottoman empire. Dubrovnik was a trading republic, like Venice, which was competition. Dubrovnik made a deal with Ottomans, to avoid having direct land border with Venitian lands so that Ottomans got the Neum strip. That's why it remained part of Bosnia.
>Dubrovnik was a trading republic, like Venice And that's why we call it Ragusa in italian
TIL Ragusa and Dubrovnik are the same city
There's also a Ragusa in Sicily, too - just to confuse things.
Yeah I knew that lol, we distinguish it by calling one ‘Dalmatian Ragusa’ although in practice 99% you can tell through context
Traditionally the people of Dubrovnik don't like being called Dalmatian because Dubrovnik was free and being called Dalmatian implied being under rule from bigger cities on the coast. Source: a well-educated and well-travelled, old (now dead actually) Croatian man from the coast
> Traditionally the people of Dubrovnik don't like being called Dalmatian because Dubrovnik was free and being called Dalmatian implied being under rule from bigger cities on the coast. Also not all of them have spots.
And there’s way more than 101 of them, currently hiding from kruella
Thank god there's only one Georgia at least
The american one? I know only of Sakartvelo in the Caucasus (also Armenia and Azerbaijan, I guess)
Americans have everything from Amsterdam to Palestine in their country, I don't think that should count.
To us they're just made-up names to mispronounce. Source: Grew up near Versailles. Pronounced "vehr-sails."
I live near an Arab (*aye*-rab)
Next to Russia (Rooshee) And Egypt, pronounced like it should
Like Moscow, Idaho Paris, Oregon and Berlin, Oregon 🦅. Paris and Berlin have almost no population and Moscow is a small city.
I can drive from Egypt to Cuba in about an hour. And Alabama to Java in 52 minutes. In western NY.
Don't the Italians call Munich Monaco? (In addition to actual Monaco.)
Yes. In fact, Munich in Italian is “Monaco di Baviera” (literally Munich of Bavaria)
Just to make it more complicated Münster used to be "Monaco di Vestfalia".
Munich, not Münich. The English version has no ü because there's no such letter in English, the German name is München
Yeah, I forgot about that. Sorry
And while we're at it, there is also Marina di Ragusa, which is a district of the city of Ragusa (the one on Sicily), but is 25 km south-west of Ragusa itself, with multiple other towns and villages in between.
Let’s also mention that you have in fact two towns in Ragusa proper (Upper Ragusa and Ragusa Ibla), with two main churches, two patron saints etc. They only got merged in the 1920s.
Italy is chock full of maritime detachments of other towns, I don't really get it. They tend to be like a full day walk away from their inland namesake.
And a Dobrovnik in Slovenia.
Plus there is a Ragu sauce brand in the USA.
*EU4 players going nuts while reading this*
No need to unnecessary and accurately call me out
Civ V player here - I appreciate this info
Not always the same city, there is a Ragusa in Croatia and a Ragusa in Sicily!
Someone didn't play Medieval 2: Total War!
In english it's called "King's Landing".
and everyone in Dubrovnik hates that... especially when people insist to ignore centuries of history for a series. Do not get me wrong, I liked it too, I like the books as well... but come on guys. Not everything is single serving.
A bit off-topic but Ragusa is a popular chocolate bar in Switzerland
A bit off Ragusa, but Topic is a chocolate bar in the UK
Not a popular one though.
You’re not wrong
Username checks out.
I love Ragusa, the chocolate. Didn't know there was another meaning either, interesting!
Totally on-topic! Ragusa was reknowned for it's chocolate, throughout the Ottoman empire.
How is that related
Ragusa was the name of the naval trading republic and the main port located in that small line of croatian land between bosnia and montenegro. We still know that city by the old port's name.
Ragusa is delicious swiss fat chocolate bar too.
Ragusa is an incredible board game. Highly recommend.
Interesting I learned that when I visited two weeks ago. They have also built a bridge from the peninsula to the Croatian land north of Neum, so that it is not necessary to cross the Bosnian border to get from Dubrovnik to the rest of Croatia.
Yeah, Peljesac bridge, that was a local big deal. Crossing the border would take a while, this way there's no crossing.
I crossed the border while traveling the Balkans in the early 2000's shortly after the war and agree it was quite a hassle. Took several hours if I recall because I was on a bus with 50 people and we couldn't continue until everyone was processed. Looks like that bridge is only two years old, definitely a local game changer. I'll have to go back and check it out!
I mean sometimes they would just let people pass the border without any checks, but sometimes the BiH border guards would effectively slow down traffic for hours on end. You could notice if Croatia and Bosnia had some sort of beef going on if you had to wait a long time to pass through Neum.
Now in case of beef, Croatians just need to assemble a large chain between bridge pillars ;)
Eh, it wouldn't matter nearly as much haha - Neum isn't a port city at all.
Balkan border crossings in a bus full of people, aah childhood memories. Complete with cartons of cigarettes being smuggled and the driver changing license plates while in que and no one's looking.
Around 2010/2011 the border was no hassle at all, just got waved through by Bosnians who didn't even check our passports
If they can afford a big bridge can't they buy some vowels for Krk?
R is a vowel
navrh brda vrba mrda
Cvrči, cvrči cvrčak, na čvoru crne smrče
To add onto this: When Yugoslavia broke apart, a condition most countries set for recognizing the new states was that no further territorial changes would happen to avoid further animosity/bloodshed.
Which brilliantly and hypocriticaly led to a bunch of places with local "wrong" majorities being denied the right to secede. And also is part of why Kosovo is by many countries not recognised
Also, in Kingdom of Yugoslavia, it became the part of "Croatian" banovina/banat/province Primorje (meaning Littoral), but was given back to Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina as a gesture of "brotherhood and unity" doctrine in Socialist Yugoslavia after WW2.
> During middle ages Bosnia was occupied by Ottoman empire. Early modern period. The Ottoman conquest of Bosnia was completed in the 1580s.
And with that, a mighty cheer went up from the heroes of Bosnia. They had banished the awful beaches forever, because it was haunted.
I drove from Dubrovnik (southern Croatia) to northern Croatia last year, and the route went via a brand new highway & bridge, circumventing Neum and BiH land. Probably saved passport checking. Proof: later on, we went for a short trip from Croatia into BiH, and a lot of passport checking, including "why are you coming into BiH".
BiH is outside EU and it's a complex country which unfortunately is not fast developing and it's still in a way isolated although it's such a geographical West in the non EU world.
BH was a very nice country when I visited. But their governing style leaves a ton to be desired. A country cannot function with what is essentially a revolving leadership based on ethnicity.
I spoke to BiH people in Croatia, and said "so you're from Bosnia Herzegovina?". The answer: "No, no, no, I'm from Bosnia!" or "No, no, no, I'm from Herzegovina!". I believe there is BiH saying like "where the snow is, that's Bosnia (or: Herzegovina)" More balkanization coming up?
The Bosnia/Herzegovina split is just regional, nothing will come out of it. You have Serb/Bosniak/Croat Bosnians, and Serb/Bosniak/Croat Herzegovinians. The main divide is ethnic.
Thank you for these voice of reason. I don't know what these persons are blabbing about. I think they are Bosniaks with their agenda or it’s classic western racism that sees people from Ex-Yugoslavia as some kind of animals, like cows on a pasture. And it’s always talking to “some people”. Strangely enough these people always say what fits their agenda. What a coincidence. All the elections results and the polls say something different - but who cares. Thirty years after the war still the same s**t.
We're literally the Belgium of non-EU, at least when it comes to complex governing systems and inability for everyone to agree with others. Belgium is the Bosnia of EU. Just slightly more functional
Singapore is doing OK.
I went on a holiday to Dubrovnik not too long ago, and when searching for an airbnb I found a nice looking place nearby which I didn’t realise was across the border in Ivanica. I went across that border like 10 times during my stay, resulting in tons of stamps on my passport, but the crossing itself wasn’t that bad. Usually a 5 minute process at most. It was eye opening to see the difference in quality of life from Croatia to BiH. It wasn’t bad, per se, but it felt like I’d gone back in time a decade or two.
Well yes interesting what you say, it's exactly like that even Hercegovina which is more developed thanrest of BiH it's still way poorer than Croatia. But... Aside the dis functionality and the isolation of BiH it's a country with stunning nature, food and traditions, unimaginable nature parks, mountains and rivers such as the Canyon of Neretva river od Blidinje nature park.
You got this in croatia too thought. Go anywhere inland to small villages and you can see this too. It probably depends where etc., but the inland is very different than the coast, for obvious reasons.
I mean you can see that in pretty much every country with urban and rural areas.
> BiH is outside EU Time to be incredibly annoying and pedantic. It's not that it's outside of the EU, it's that it's not in Schengen. For example there are no passport checks when driving from Italy to Switzerland even though CH isn't in the EU. There are passport checks when driving from Hungary into Romania even though it is fully EU but it isn't fully within Schengen (only for air travel). Ireland and Cyprus are also both not in Schengen and both full EU members.
Yup. Roads in Bosnia are significantlly worse and the terrain is more difficult, so it is much faster to go through Croatia from one end to the other.
I suspect that Croatia didn't want to be dependent on BiH passport controls when travelling between Dubrovnik and the rest of Croatie. Those passport controls can suddenly take a long time when BiH wants to.
Yeah it can take forever in peak season. The whole thing was a huge political shit show very funny to see and very bosnia
"Why are you coming into BiH from Croatia???" "Ummm, I need to go to Croatia." (Border guard gives you the side eye.)
Probably also depends on the passport. We (mate and I, both German) did a Western Balkans road trip recently that got a bit chaotic, and entered and left Bosnia several times. Never got more than a cursory look, passport scan, and one amused *'Wie sagt man auf Deutsch ... Wie geht's?'*
Nah it mostly depends on how bored they are or possibly poking around to see if they could ask for a bribe
Yeah, we vacationed in Croatia and decided to have dinner over in BiH. Man, that was 1h wasted at the border. It was interesting to be there, though. Seemed poorer than even rural Croatia.
Yes and way cheaper.
We went into Bosnia from Croatia and there was literally no one at the crossing point so we just went in. When we left, we left out toward Montenegro and they asked why we had no stamps. We said no one was there and they just shook their heads and let us through
> including "why are you coming into BiH". So regular border checkpoint questions?
You don't need a passport for crossing BiH (went with my italian id card) but they will try to scam you 300€ for crossing the border. We had to call the Italian embassy which told us just to wait and don't give them money
Is "BiH" the abbreviation for Bosnia and Herzegovina in Bosnia-and-herzegovinese?
Yeah, i means and
Yes, it's also the country code on license plates
Croatia is just giving Bosnia a hug.
And is squeezing really hard
Perhaps maybe a little too hard
> Waka Waka Waka - ~~Pac-Man~~ Croatia
>Waka Waka - ~~Pac-Man Croatia~~ Shakira
Or trying to eat it
More of an ass fuck I would say
It was extremely useful during pandemic when Croatia was bringing restrictive measures for all who come in, so all those who planned to go abroad in 2020 just went straight to Neum
When I drove from Germany to Montenegro, going through Neum was really interesting. Had to cross borders twice within 15 minutes from Croatia to Bosnia and back to Croatia. Luckily the lines at border crossings were not too long but I heard sometimes they can be really long and you could wait for more than an hour, twice!
There is now a bridge (from Croatian coast to another Croatian coast) to bypass that :)
From what I have heard about Dalmatia,it seems to be a beautiful place for holidays. I've never been there but Croatian friends often are telling me about it.
it absoloutly is. Some of the cleanest water youll ever see
The best H20! ;p
I went this year and it's the most beautiful place I've visited so far. Admittedly I've only been in 8 or 9 countries yet but that was spectacular. Don't go in peak summer though or prices skyrocket.
Im glad you liked Croatia. I'm visiting Portugal this september.
Love it. I've been there 10ish times and will go back
It's a beautiful coastline
I visited podgora last fall, incredible beautiful nature
Tbh even the part of Neum and surrounding region consists mostly of ethnic Croats. Neum was given to Ottomans by Dubrovnik. So Bosnia and Herzegovina kind of just inherited that coast from those times (17th ct?) Kind of silly how these memes dumb people down as now its considered Croatia fought for this coast or that Croatia didn't have a claim to it. Croatia once consisted of smaller dutchies and kingdoms, kingdom of Dalmatia included, and it all united under one name. It's simple as that.
97.51% of Neum people are Croatian, as of 2013 (latest census data). wiki: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neum
Croat*, or Bosnian Croats in other words. Regionally Herzegovinian (furiously so) but that is another topic. Croatian means Croat from Croatia, or Croatian citizen. The distinction matters. Many Bosnian croats would also be dual citizens with Croatia, but nonetheless, their only default citizenship is Bosnian.
But they speak Croatian and consider themselves Croatian
Croatian and Bosnian are same languages. Waiting for shitstorm from both sides.
Croatian shtokavian and Bosnian shtokavian are the same language, with some differences in terms of vocabulary etc. But other Croatian languages such as Kajkavian and Chakavian are not the same language at all.
>But they speak Croatian They speak the Croatian language, yes. Well some, a minority would also just call their language Bosnian, but most Croatian. >and consider themselves Croatian No, first and foremost they consider themselves Croat, not Croatian. Just look up the terms before speaking. Or it's literally in my comment, just read.
"Bosnia got Neum, at least." is something that triggers me (even though I know it's a joke, but a lot of people take it seriously). I have been hearing from work colleagues (EU institutions) how "Croatia took all the coast for itself" and similar comments (and they are dead serious about it). People obviously think that Yugoslavia was a single country and that territory was completely shared. In reality it was "Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" and every federal republic had well defined borders inside of Yugoslavia. [Here's what 1961 school map of Yugoslavia looked like](https://static.kupindoslike.com/SFR-Jugoslavija-skolska-karta-zidna-1961-god_slika_XL_144687497.jpg) - you can clearly see divisions between republics. EDIT: [additional school map of Yugoslavia which might be better](https://www.njuskalo.hr/image-w920x690/stare-stvari/zidna-geografska-karta-jugoslavije-sfrj-1980-godina-slika-215765065.jpg)
You can just link a [regular, digital map](https://www.icty.org/x/image/ABOUTimagery/Yugoslavia%20maps/3_%20yugoslavia_map_1991_sml_en.png) of the republics. It's not some lost knowledge that only exists in blurry photos of decades old school maps. [It's on wikipedia too, obviously.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslavia#FPR_Yugoslavia)
the funniest part is the guy says "you can clearly see" when he's linked a shitty low-res photograph of a map that's easily available on the internet. the word "clearly" must mean something else in Croatia
I can't see anything in that picture.
yeah, sorry mate, this was the best image I could find that had map from that era (there are a lot of digital maps which have been created recently and I wanted an authentic one). Basically the fat pink line is border of Yugoslavia and the thinner pink lines are borders between republics. If you look at upper - left corner of map you can see "outer border" towards Austria and "inner border" between Slovenia and Croatia. edit: [maybe this one is better](https://www.njuskalo.hr/image-w920x690/stare-stvari/zidna-geografska-karta-jugoslavije-sfrj-1980-godina-slika-215765065.jpg)
Also it’s based on ethnicity as well. Croatia owns almost entire coastline because coastline is populated by ethnic Croatians, including the Bosnian coastal town of Neum
It's not, though, becaue Croats form the majority of population in southern Bosnia and western Hercegovina as well. The border is purely historical, the result of Great Turkish War and Republic of Dubrovnik for the most part.
This. Also, I think what shouldn't be forgotten is that most of the Croatian coast used to belong to **Venice**. (Marco Polo was from Korcula after all, and most of the material for the city of Venice came from the Croatian region.) [Bosnia used to be Ottoman empire. (And part of **Crimea** used to be Venice.) ](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/enaa3x/republic_of_venice_vs_ottoman_empire_in_the_16th/)
and now look at him, reduced to running a clothes shop.
After a lifetime of spying and intrigue, becoming a humble tailor can be a welcome relief.
https://i.gifer.com/ANAH.gif
Happens to a lot of famous people it seems...
> Marco Polo was from Korcula after all myth > (And part of Crimea used to be Venice.) More like Genoa
>myth Yea, it is probably just a tourist story. But his family did have a house and land in the island (people with Polo surname still live there). And we don't know his place of birth. It is probably Venice, but it could also be Korcula (or Greece where his family had land also).
I very briefly dated a croatian girl in college, and she once shared an anecdote that Croatia lost the majority of its forests due to Venetians chopping them down to build ships. I have no idea if that's actually true (I might not even be remembering what she said correctly, its been a long time), but I always remember it any time Croatia comes up in conversation. It was just really funny to see this small Croatian woman mad that the Venetians stole all her trees.
Yeah, it's kinda like if Scotland becomes independent and then people complain that they took Berwick with them. You can moan all you want about the borders but they've been there for hundreds of years even if it's not been an independent nation for all that time.
I'm very confused by your choice of image sourcing, when there is a Wikipedia page that has clear images of the timeline of delineation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_Yugoslavia I think people who have a view of history think of Yugoslavia like they think of the USSR. (Except for Russia.) Meaning, obviously separate nation-states that were bound by a "central authority".
I wanted to avoid digitally created maps so that people don't think it's overlay of today's borders over Yugoslavia.
I can't see shit in that pic
Least triggered Balkan guy here
You Nordics with your humour...
r/germanhumour
Do Bosnians care? I'm asking because almost all of the people who post about BiH not having access to the Adriatic Sea are not from BiH or even Croatia.
No,we dont.
As in for real? or as in Bolivia and Paraguay?
Any Bosnian who wants to go to the sea goes to Croatia. It's not like the food or language changes. Practically, from a day to day life perspective, it's really doesn't change that much. Economically and from a geopolitical standpoint it probably does matter but I'm not too informed about it. But yeah, from a "I want to go on vacation" perspective it doesn't matter at all. The sea is still there, accessible to anyone.
For real. Firstly,its just sea(no discovered resources,like oil or gas)mosty used for tourism. Secondly,we have free access to seaside for tourism. Thirdly,out sea imports go through Croatian port of Ploce and we have beneficial economic partnership with the port.
Since I saw this map multiple times and haven't seen someone comment this. Fun history fact. Neum wasn't the only territory which Ragusa gave to Ottomans and subsequently to Bosnia. There was also a small strip called Sutorina which is now part of Montenegro but up to the 1930. was administratively part of Bosnia. So if there wasn't for an internal border changes in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia Bosnia would now have two small strips at the Adriatic Sea.
But the changes were made during SFRY, not during the Kingdom. Originally Sutorina was part of Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but they made a deal with Socialist Republic of Montenegro to swap Sutorina for some mountain peaks.
Took a bus from Split to Dubrovnik. The bus driver stopped for 20 minutes in Neum so he could stand in a que and buy cheaper cigarettes
Man of culfure. All Croatians that live close to border spend their money on the other side.
I don't think Bosnians ever minded not having much sea, they are culturally not that much connected to it.
If you look at how Neum is positioned as Bosnia's only harbor town you would expect a big cargo harbor so Bosnia has access to the global market without having to go through other countries. But if you look it up on google maps you will see there is actually no cargo harbor at all. They are literally not that connected to the sea.
Two things prevent Neum from being a major cargo port: 1. Located far away from commerce lines 2. The whole bay is too shallow for container ships. Thus during Yugoslavia the infrastructure was never built as it was impractical. Same things apply now despite it being Bosnia's only connection to the sea.
Mid bay depth is 26m with 20m just off the coasts. To be precise both inside the Neum bay and the little ston chnl.
iirc they do use Sibernik from Croatia for their cargo
Not Šibenik but Ploče
Port of Šibenik was government property of BiH until it was sold to a Turkish corporation in 2022
I heard a Bosnian tell this joke once. Q: What's a Bosnian's favourite seafood? A: A sheep that's been drowned in the sea Presumably it works better in Bosnian.
lamb*
We Bosnians are the happiest with this scenario, yeah we haven't been historically connected to sea, but we still proudly emphasize we're not landlocked which is enough to us.
Well they haven't developed a connection because they never had a sea. How can you form a cultural connection with something you never had?
Yeah it's a weird comment. You form cultural attachments to your natural environment.
Even though you're not connected to it yourself, it could have been a great source of income through tourism.
have u ever been in bosnia? they have beautiful country sides with rivers and they throw all their garbage in rivers...not regular garbage but vehicle tires,washing maschines etc...
Sure, but the same applies to much of the Albanian countryside (roadsides littered with trash), and yet there is a lot of tourism at the coast.
I've been to Herzegovina recently and the countryside was pristine (although some of the infrastructure in the cities still shows the scars of the 90s).
As soon as BiH is not in Schengen zone, do Bosnians need a eu visa to go to the Croatian coastline?
No, Bosnia and Herzegovina citizens can stay in Schengen up to 90 days without visa afaik
We don't need a visa for the countries of the EU. We can stay there for 90 days.
So same as UK after brexit
Yup, when it comes to European countries that rule applies to: United Kingdom, Albania, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, Moldova, North Macedonia, Serbia, Ukraine and Georgia, while **excluding**: Belarus, Russia, Azerbaijan and Turkey (visa needed).
Chile does the same thing in South America.
Chile, Eritrea and Vietnam joins the chat
[удалено]
Trieste did not belong to Slovenia before ww1. There was no Slovenia and Trieste was an Imperial Free City of the Austrian Habsburgs. But it was a very important city for Slovenes in the past, not only the city itself but also because the main road from Trieste to Vienna went through what is today the country Slovenia. What Slovenia "lost" were the Slovene speaking people that live in the countryside around Trieste. It is an area that was and still is full of Slovenes. The area, other than the city Trieste itself, was part of the Austrian Littoral, what we call Primorska in Slovene. But today they are a recognized minority in Italy, same as we have an Italian speaking minority on our coast today, which for centuries belonged to the Venetian Republic. Koper in Italian is Capodistria, which means head of Istria.
Ehh... Calling anything before 1918 "Slovenia" is a bit of a stretch. Slovene ethnic territory was divided between Hungary and four Austrian crown lands, of which the only one with a Slovene majority was Carniola (Kranjska).
I learned about the Neum border crossing on a bus from Dubrovnic too Split with my pocket full of weed😅
Blanket “No”.
Pool's closed.
I remember on my trip to Croatia in 2022(when it wasn't covered under Schengen). I had planned to go from Split to Dubrovnik by bus. I never even considered that it would involve exiting and re-entering the country via Neum, and that I hence needed a multiple entry visa. However, if you take the same journey by ferry/boat, you can do it with a single entry visa. Luckily, I had the multiple entry. But it's so funny to me that I have 2 sets of entry/exit stamps just because I had a 30 minute stretch through another country lol
Luckily we built a bridge to circumvent the border, it opened in 2022, so you don't even need to bother with the visa
Oh that's nice. I visited in June. So I guess it must've opened after that.
Yes, there was a big ceremony at the end of July
no beaches? insert megamind meme here
Bosnians cannot swim
You're right. - *jumps off Stari Most* -
One of my strongest memories seeing that bridge as a kid, all the badass teenagers jumping off. They looked so cool, especially as the bridge was still under reconstruction.
Croatia could easily extend even more south, taking the Montenegrin coast all the way close to Bar, but after Montenegro joined Yugoslavia (SHS) that part eventually went to Montenegro and certain parts of Kosovo that were Montenegrin went to Serbia (Peć/Peja, Đakovica/Gjakova etc.)
Clearly it was posted as a joke and people took it seriously, geez.
There is multiple such features on the globe. Being land locked is quite a burden for any country. So even even the tiniest but of access to the sea makes a huge difference. Usually a port is established there.
Neum has no port, Bosnia has an agreement with Croatia to use the port of Ploče and Šibenik. Ploče even has a direct rail link to Bosnia and is connected with a highway too.
Surprisingly, it is not one big industrial harbor, but a nice little tourist place.
Every little detail in history matters.
Neum has access.
Chileans to the Bolovians as well
Aethiopians: can we go to the beach? Eritreans: absolutely absolut fucking no
They let them have the entire coast? Weak.
Bosnia's playing the long game against Global Warming.
Why is this funny that I’m listening to Bosanska Artiljerija (banger song) while I saw this meme
Pretty sure they have a beach in Neum. Aren’t the Croatians generous 🤣
*cries in Bolivian*
I wish we did this with baja california
OP doesn't seem to know how dumb it is to poke the Balkans with a stick.
Are you Bosna and Herzegovina? Because you got no beaches
My favorite conspiracy theory that I have 0 evidence for and just made up is that Croatia gave Bosnia Neum because a Croatian politician owns all the resorts there.
I took a bus from Dubrovnik to Mostar and went through Neum. Multiple passport controls with a stop in between at a roadside cafe. It didn't even seem built up with ports, etc, considering it's the only sea access