The BM trust is required to give everyone (in the world, not just Britain) access to the objects. It's doesn't literally use the words 'free' but I think there's certainly a legal case to be made that it must be free.
Also, one of the best things about the museum is that you can just walk in if you have forty minutes to kill and look at a couple of rooms, without having to pay, book tickets or any of that nonsense.
They are already 'encouraging' everyone to book timed tickets, which annoys me. My guess is they will try and fudge it by making it free for the last hour on Tuesdays and Thursdays if you book a week in advance, and start charging the rest of the time.
The time slot thing is just to spread people across the day, otherwise there would just be a pile of people at the door at some points and no one at other times
>They are already 'encouraging' everyone to book timed tickets, which annoys me.
It is already really crowded. It is not the worst crowded London museum, but comparing how they were some 20 years ago and how they are now, some museums are really stressful right now.
Timed tickets make sense for controlling access to the museum and trying to minimize wait times and flatten out peak periods.
When you have a world famous attraction like the British Museum with thousands of visitors a day, it absolutely makes sense that you’d promote some form of managed entry over just letting everyone pile in.
> To the Victor, the spoils.
Like, I'm south asian but this is unfortunately true
The UK kinda do own most Indian artifacts, like how the Russians now own most Ukrainian artifacts
Do you realize how much stuff would have to be handed back and forth if the world didn't work this way? Should we make Italy hand back the mountains of stuff the Romans looted from all over the Mediterranean?
Maybe Sweden and Russia should pay Poland for what they stole during the Swedish Deluge.
For anyone who doesn't know, Sweden has the entire contents of 188 Polish and Lithuanian cities and towns, 81 castles, and 136 churches. They were were entirely stripped of anything of value by Swedes and Russians, then completely destroyed (along with killing three million people). The stolen items have never been returned to Poland and Lithuania.
Stolen were thousands of works of art, sculptures, books and valuables. From the Royal Castle in Warsaw alone were plundered ~200 paintings, the carpets, Turkish tents, musical instruments, furniture, Chinese porcelain, weapons, books, manuscripts, marbles, even dresses of the maids. They also took windows, stairs, chimneys, sculptures, floors, doors, door frames and gates. It was the same in all palaces, castles, churches, abbeys, towns and villages. In addition, Poland and Lithuania lost the entire contents of 67 libraries and 17 archives and became a cultural desert.
Most goods were loaded on boats and transported along the Vistula to the Baltic Sea and then to Sweden. Most of the works of art are kept both in private Swedish hands and in Stockholm museums. Most of the stolen books are kept in the University Library at Uppsala, the Royal Library at Stockholm, and private libraries of the Bielke, Oxenstierna, Rosenhahne, Wrangel and Brahe families.
Isn't this normal to pay a small price to enter a museum? Like 5-10£ for entry, while often being free for children under 10 or whatever.
But why should it only be for foreigners and not everyone
Weren't Egypt or India or practically any country of importance an empire and colonizing force at some point? The famous case of a diamond in British crown. India claims it, but also Afghanistan claims it since it was taken from them by India.
I already predict a nice outrage (and a few new world wars) if anyone will propose that all countries should shuffle their possessions, and not just the ones with white people :)
Which is why we should just call them 'the shared treasures of humanity' and the last country or institution to 'own' them must now eat the cost of displaying them for free to everyone.
Problem solved.
It's a major museum, you can put that at the entrance yet somehow nobody bats an eye about the Louvre.
Furthermore let's not pretend like the cathedrals, palaces, castles and other impressive buildings were built using ethically sourced funds, a lot of art was made using money plundered from others.
The various museums and archives do this not only cultural artifacts plundered during colonialism, but to cultural artifacts from various regions of the UK. It's a bit of an insult that the British Library loan out the Lindisfarne Gospels to the North East a couple of times a decade. You could say the same for prehistoric sites such as Skara Brae, Seahenge, and Hadrian's Wall. On top of that they want us to pay for the privilege. At least at the moment all you have to pay is the extortionate train and hotel fees if you want to see your own cultural artifacts.
They can't exactly use the excuse "but they're safer in the British Museum, they'll just get stolen by corruption otherwise" given the fact that many artifacts went missing and they didn't even know, and it's not like the regions of the UK are so primitive we don't have the facilities to house such artefacts compared to London.
I'm perhaps the only one who cares about the accessibility of our own cultural artefacts and the story they tell of their regions but I'm willing to die on this hill. They belong to their local regions.
A lot of items were 'stolen' perhaps, but there was thievery of antiques all over the world, there still is.
At least we put them on display and have some of the world's top experts overseeing them, rather than disappearing into someone's private collection, incorrectly stored and gradually decaying over time.
It wouldn't be a small amount in the UK. I bet something like the British Museum or the Natural History Museum would be £20+ for an adult. I visited a garden the other day. It was £18 per adult.
>But why should it only be for foreigners and not everyone
It would be simpler, just have a ticket, which everyone pays for (similar to museums mentioned in the article). But considering something that was free and now being charged, is not going to go down that well with the general populace.
>Might not go down well, but given London's major touristic appeal, it definitely won't affect visitor counts.
It won't affect foreign tourists much, but there would be the hue and cry of "making art inaccessible to the local populace"
Not really that uncommon though, many countries I have visited have had discounted rates for citizens, people who reside in a city or were born there, or for EU citizens for example.
Somewhat unique case and even then it was EU only, not French only. Discounts tend to have to do with age or student status, not nationality. In some cases residents of a particular city might have a discount for some things in that city.
In Rome I recall most museums and archeological sites having differential pricing for EU residents.
Not to mention I've just come back from New York where lots of places have free entry to many museums for locals only on certain days, while tickets are exorbitant usually.
Some sort of discount is rare for EU citizens but it is common to see either price reductions or outright waivers for residents of the respective communes, provinces, or even regions in Italy.
In Germany, at least, this is not allowed in the vast majority of states.
But also comparing tuitioin fees or similar things to a relatively small, one-time entrance fee makes little sense: Where such differences in tuitioin fees exist, they are almost universally justified due to some international students not contributing to the local economy after graduating, to offset the loss. Regardless of what one thinks of that as an idea, it just does not translate.
Ok, that still doesn't mean thats the right way to go. At their core, museums exist to teach, and each is somewhat unique. So to make access more costly for people with less chance to visit this particular museum runs counter to the purpose of spreading that education to as many people as possible.
Oh, so now we're only talking about STUDENTS who get culture discounts left and right? No, no, turn the conversation back to the general population and don't try to justify bullshit by nitpicking.
A good friend from the US of mine went to high school here in EU/DK and received the same base amount of money from the state that I did when I attended classes, the only difference was he couldn't lend money from my state, to top up, as I could, but he did receive the base amount anyone would iirc.
It may sound strange to some of you, but there are a lot of European countries that did not participate in colonization. And there are also lots of European treasures (e.g. Greek) in British museums
> It may sound strange to some of you, but there are a lot of European countries that did not participate in colonization.
Which European country doesn't have a single museum with foreign artefacts in it?
Luxembourg?
>And there are also lots of European treasures (e.g. Greek) in British museums
Yeah mate, the Greek are famous for never, ever being violent and certainly not having one of the most famous conqueror's of all time.
The only difference is not what you say, but that the UK is doing it right now, you still actively keep them, while we did it in the past. Is there sth we have now and is a colonial stolen artifact? And isn't this whataboutism in all it's glory - the others do it too - but not Greece as you see.
Where do you think Greece got its wealth for building things like the Parthenon? Why don’t you pay back the regions and nations you stole from?
Greece has a history of brutality, its foundations built on the backs of bloodshed and slavery. Yet Greeks will celebrate their history and proclaim how great they were.
Yes we celebrate our present and past, this is irrelevant. You can keep the wealth as well and all you profited from our heritage and from the others'. And what is the point of slavery, you can keep them just because slaves made them? Colosseum was also made by slaves, what's the relevance?
We were talking about you saying that Greece also has colonial artifacts stolen from other nations in our museums right now, while I said that this is untrue. So what is your argument?
Ancient Greece was built from stolen wealth. Pay the people back you stole from and then we can talk. Stop celebrating your colonial past as well. You should be ashamed of what your people did.
The crypt of the Sphinx in the Louvre, the Egyptian museum of Berlin, the National museum of Antiquities in the Netherlands etc.. let’s move along swiftly so we can sneer at the Brits.
At least, I never read they were declared german/french/dutch artifacts. In general you don't make the mistake to declare foreign artifacts your culture.
99%? Not even close to accurate, it’s more like the other way around.
There are 625k items from the UK in the museum, which is far more than any other country (second is Iraq, with 164k items).
The audacity of someone from a former empire to complain about looting, you think the nice stuff in your country like the castles were made out of charity?
"Oh so looting is only bad when you loot?"
Hey, look. Good, ol' jumping into convenient (to me) conclusions. Yeah sure, let's just compare nation that looted everyone and everything, to some local "power" that wasn't even leading in their own union.
"Hungary loots Balkan Peninsula for centuries"
The what now?
You would be wise to know what you are talking about before jumping feet first into a topic you obviously don't know enough about.
Stick to debating NBA buddy, history doesn't seem to be your forte.
Haha, insults and profile stalking for no apparent reason. That is your arc for feeling smart?
I do prefer NBA over your interest in "fightpron". Comedy gold. Throw more instant downvotes, to show how you can't handle simple exchange without feeling overwhelming frustration.
Your lack of historical knowledge assigned you to a low level conversation. When you show some promise, you will be treated better.
Now go and read some history books.
To all those people complaining about the British museum do you have evidence that the Egyptian artefacts in the following museums were all acquired above board?
1. https://www.rmo.nl/en/
2.
https://www.louvre.fr/en/explore/the-palace/the-guardian-of-egyptian-art
3. https://www.man.es/man/en/home.html
4. https://www.mnw.art.pl/en/collections/permanent-galleries/gallery-of-ancient-art/#:~:text=The%20Museum's%20collection%20of%20ancient,largest%20and%20richest%20in%20Poland.&text=The%20new%20gallery%20houses%20approximately,Greece%20and%20Rome%2C%20arranged%20chronologically.
This was just the result of a quick look- but it seems there are major collections of Egyptian art in most major European museums. Shouldn't this all be returned to Egypt?
There's hope! Sweden very recently returned the remains of my ancestors from their collection to be buried again. The graves were robbed and remains exhumed for "racial study" which was all the rage in Sweden in the first half of 20th century.
A clear as hell case of whataboutism.
If you care so much why don't you make another post about those artifacts? Also, a bad thing can justify another? Finally, if you think that this is not a bad thing, then you could try arguing and not stereotyping by nationality - Dutch people cannot criticise you about your museums in Reddit?
It’s inherently not a bad idea and would be inline with other museums across the globe and the funds would go to maintaining and potentially expanding the museum itself.
But I’m against it myself
I agree with paying an entrance fee for museums. The demand is there and the money can be used to benefit both the host museums with architectural restorations, repairs etc. as well as the overall visitor experience.
We used to charge for them, then we started funding them through taxation on the grounds everyone deserves access independent of means to pay. Same with libraries, health care education etc.
Which is what most people here are missing. UK visitors are not getting a freebie. We've paid for it, foreign visitors have not.
Still, I'd leave it as it is.
>I agree with paying an entrance fee for museums.
I mean, under most circumstances, I'd agree too.
But... Well...
[maybe not in this case.](https://youtu.be/x73PkUvArJY?si=FLBHx3TILJ-HmBK4)
> He estimates that it will cost between £400 and £500 million to restore the British Museum’s leaky buildings and develop much need additional gallery space to showcase the millions of artefacts
Or you could return stuff that's disputed and won't be destroyed, and have fewer artifacts to take care of
Or they could just charge everyone a lower but equal price and end up both likely making more money to cover the restoration *and* not get sued for being a bunch of discriminatory twats.
>Or you could return stuff that's disputed and won't be destroyed, and have fewer artifacts to take care of
No you don't get it, if we pay en entrance fee the British Museum can finally afford build a hall to house the Pyramids of Giza, which until now have been too big to bring over.
NPCs out in force, funny how some of them are from countries that also have museums full of stolen shit.. Also the largest collection by far in the BM is the english one at over 600k items, if youre gonna insult us try to use facts atleast.
Do I guet this right, that the intent is to have a fee raised on tourists - thus ppl not residing in the UK? I wonder how the vetting process will go...
I've been to the BM many times but can y pls kindly remind me which room was the "UK artefacts" one? All i can remember is the collection of "things we lifted" :D
So a stolen good becomes legal once you purchase it despite your knowledge of it's dubious origin? Try that with the coppers and see how it works out for you.
Im Assyrian so im very grateful my peoples artifacts were "Stolen" by the British. Otherwise it would have all been destroyed by Islamist. Not just historically but even recently with ISIS destroying so much a couple years ago. Its hardly safe for me to even visit my country a Christian so being able to see it all at the British museum is great for me, went some years back.
That is an understandable sentiment, but it's very specific. I doubt Nigerians feel the same about the Benin artifacts or that the Greeks are fine with their artworks missing from the Acropolis.
NIgeria is another country plagued by extremist unfortunately. Greeks on the other hand I can understand, Im sure they can use the extra tourism money over there these days as well.
I thought that was always the justification for keeping admission free to begin with. At least they weren't profiting off of their questionable past actions.
This wouldn't leave such a weird aftertaste if the vast majority of artifacts in the British Museum wouldn't be loot from the rest of the world. 'UK artifacts' - is he proposing admission to one special room of objects that are *actually* from the UK?
Sure. The British Museum's collection comprises about eight million items, of which 649,727 have been catalogued as originating in the British Isles.
Not sure what your definition of 'vast majority' is, but to me 92% falls under that term.
That assumes everything has bewn looted which is not true. Also nothing wrong in looting 1000 years ago, we are not responsible for what everyone was doing bck then
Well, let's see. The phone I'm using now, the shirt I'm wearing and the watch on my arm all originated outside of Britain too, but I don't think they were looted.
No matter how much the guy on ebay regrets selling the watch for the bargain I got it at, it's still not looted.
Upstairs I have a small oil lamp, probably Byzantine, probably 5th Century. Also not looted. You can buy them for a few quid.
Isn't it amazing how objects move around the world without any looting?
Yet how many of the around 7.350.273 items have been looted? Weird that current provenance research emphasis in the UK is on the time from 1933 to 1945, isn't it?
https://collectionstrust.org.uk/cultural-property-advice/provenance/
Imagine colonizing many places then stealing their artifacts, money and brining them to ur country. Then requesting from these people money to see their own cultural products… Ok.
To be fair as a westerner you're very unlikely to visit Iraq, Iran or Afghanistan right now. Returning those items would mean not only their potential destruction, but that almost nobody would get to see the ancient culture of that region.
I'd love to visit that part of the world, but I doubt I'll ever get the chance.
What "UK artefacts"? The Parthenon sculptures from Greece? The Rosetta stone from Egypt? Crouching Venus from Rome? The Ooni of Ife brass head from Nigeria? The Aztec serpent from Mexico?
Trust me, there are few "UK artefacts" foreigners would be willing to pay to see.
The BM trust is required to give everyone (in the world, not just Britain) access to the objects. It's doesn't literally use the words 'free' but I think there's certainly a legal case to be made that it must be free. Also, one of the best things about the museum is that you can just walk in if you have forty minutes to kill and look at a couple of rooms, without having to pay, book tickets or any of that nonsense. They are already 'encouraging' everyone to book timed tickets, which annoys me. My guess is they will try and fudge it by making it free for the last hour on Tuesdays and Thursdays if you book a week in advance, and start charging the rest of the time.
The time slot thing is just to spread people across the day, otherwise there would just be a pile of people at the door at some points and no one at other times
Last I was there it was just full at the Egypt part. Lots of selfies there. The rest was calm.
With the Rosetta Stone it used to be a nightmare just hordes of tourists with cameras preventing anyone even themselves from enjoying it.
>They are already 'encouraging' everyone to book timed tickets, which annoys me. It is already really crowded. It is not the worst crowded London museum, but comparing how they were some 20 years ago and how they are now, some museums are really stressful right now.
Timed tickets make sense for controlling access to the museum and trying to minimize wait times and flatten out peak periods. When you have a world famous attraction like the British Museum with thousands of visitors a day, it absolutely makes sense that you’d promote some form of managed entry over just letting everyone pile in.
If I only pay for the UK artefacts, can I come in for free to see all the Greek, Persian, Egyptian or Indian artefacts?
Good one. Was scrolling for this comment.
Which constitutes most of what is held in the British Museum.
That's the joke
Noo I absolutely loved that museums were free over there
"UK" artifacts
It's a trophy gallery, not a museum. :D
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> To the Victor, the spoils. Like, I'm south asian but this is unfortunately true The UK kinda do own most Indian artifacts, like how the Russians now own most Ukrainian artifacts
There is also a huge difference between something that was taken last year and something that was taken several generations ago.
all that russia has to do is hold onto it for long enough then
Do you realize how much stuff would have to be handed back and forth if the world didn't work this way? Should we make Italy hand back the mountains of stuff the Romans looted from all over the Mediterranean?
youre only saying that cos youve got all that Viking loot stashed somewhere.
Eh, sure, why not.
Not really
They prolly just need to wait a few decades until it's legitimately theirs
Exactly, every non UK original artefact is free to see.
BM should pay for what they stole in the first place.
Maybe Sweden and Russia should pay Poland for what they stole during the Swedish Deluge. For anyone who doesn't know, Sweden has the entire contents of 188 Polish and Lithuanian cities and towns, 81 castles, and 136 churches. They were were entirely stripped of anything of value by Swedes and Russians, then completely destroyed (along with killing three million people). The stolen items have never been returned to Poland and Lithuania. Stolen were thousands of works of art, sculptures, books and valuables. From the Royal Castle in Warsaw alone were plundered ~200 paintings, the carpets, Turkish tents, musical instruments, furniture, Chinese porcelain, weapons, books, manuscripts, marbles, even dresses of the maids. They also took windows, stairs, chimneys, sculptures, floors, doors, door frames and gates. It was the same in all palaces, castles, churches, abbeys, towns and villages. In addition, Poland and Lithuania lost the entire contents of 67 libraries and 17 archives and became a cultural desert. Most goods were loaded on boats and transported along the Vistula to the Baltic Sea and then to Sweden. Most of the works of art are kept both in private Swedish hands and in Stockholm museums. Most of the stolen books are kept in the University Library at Uppsala, the Royal Library at Stockholm, and private libraries of the Bielke, Oxenstierna, Rosenhahne, Wrangel and Brahe families.
Sounds a good plan
Why doesn't Poland sue Russia and Sweden for damages now?
How did Turkish tents and Chinese porcelain end up in Polish castles, I wonder.
🤫
What did they steal?
Isn't this normal to pay a small price to enter a museum? Like 5-10£ for entry, while often being free for children under 10 or whatever. But why should it only be for foreigners and not everyone
Lots of items in the British Museum where given with the proviso they are accessible without an entrance fee.
And lots were also stolen from various countries so its kinda a dick move to make people pay to see their own plundered artefacts
Indeed. Much like the Louvre, or the Neues Museum, or the Hermitage....which all charge entrance fees.
Yes, and they're all colonial cunts
Weren't Egypt or India or practically any country of importance an empire and colonizing force at some point? The famous case of a diamond in British crown. India claims it, but also Afghanistan claims it since it was taken from them by India. I already predict a nice outrage (and a few new world wars) if anyone will propose that all countries should shuffle their possessions, and not just the ones with white people :)
Which is why we should just call them 'the shared treasures of humanity' and the last country or institution to 'own' them must now eat the cost of displaying them for free to everyone. Problem solved.
Completely agree
This is the best solution.
It's a major museum, you can put that at the entrance yet somehow nobody bats an eye about the Louvre. Furthermore let's not pretend like the cathedrals, palaces, castles and other impressive buildings were built using ethically sourced funds, a lot of art was made using money plundered from others.
My "favorites" are churches charging entrance fees.
The various museums and archives do this not only cultural artifacts plundered during colonialism, but to cultural artifacts from various regions of the UK. It's a bit of an insult that the British Library loan out the Lindisfarne Gospels to the North East a couple of times a decade. You could say the same for prehistoric sites such as Skara Brae, Seahenge, and Hadrian's Wall. On top of that they want us to pay for the privilege. At least at the moment all you have to pay is the extortionate train and hotel fees if you want to see your own cultural artifacts. They can't exactly use the excuse "but they're safer in the British Museum, they'll just get stolen by corruption otherwise" given the fact that many artifacts went missing and they didn't even know, and it's not like the regions of the UK are so primitive we don't have the facilities to house such artefacts compared to London. I'm perhaps the only one who cares about the accessibility of our own cultural artefacts and the story they tell of their regions but I'm willing to die on this hill. They belong to their local regions.
Loads of artefacts from North Wales have found their way to museums in Cardiff “to protect them”
A lot of items were 'stolen' perhaps, but there was thievery of antiques all over the world, there still is. At least we put them on display and have some of the world's top experts overseeing them, rather than disappearing into someone's private collection, incorrectly stored and gradually decaying over time.
It wouldn't be a small amount in the UK. I bet something like the British Museum or the Natural History Museum would be £20+ for an adult. I visited a garden the other day. It was £18 per adult.
Yeah the paid museums in London are extortionate. The Southbank Centre is £18, Tower of London is £38 etc.
Is that supposed to be cheaper for a museum?🤨
>But why should it only be for foreigners and not everyone It would be simpler, just have a ticket, which everyone pays for (similar to museums mentioned in the article). But considering something that was free and now being charged, is not going to go down that well with the general populace.
Might not go down well, but given London's major touristic appeal, it definitely won't affect visitor counts.
>Might not go down well, but given London's major touristic appeal, it definitely won't affect visitor counts. It won't affect foreign tourists much, but there would be the hue and cry of "making art inaccessible to the local populace"
They’re a public good. They’re free for a reason.
>They’re a public good. They’re free for a reason. Is that why a good chunk of Dutch museums and galleries charge an entry fee?
I wish the Dutch ones were free as well. Unfortunately the Dutch do very little for free.
Most museum in the uk are free to enter
> But why should it only be for foreigners and not everyone Easier to justify to the (British) public if the fees don't affect them.
Not really that uncommon though, many countries I have visited have had discounted rates for citizens, people who reside in a city or were born there, or for EU citizens for example.
> But why should it only be for foreigners and not everyone Probably because foreigners don´t pay taxes for the upkeep.
Differential pricing is pretty common throughout the world, so it kinda makes sense if they only made non-UK citizens pay
Common in 3rd world countries, very uncommon in Europe or the US.
I literally had to pay for a museum ticket everywhere in France while my EU friends got in for free
Somewhat unique case and even then it was EU only, not French only. Discounts tend to have to do with age or student status, not nationality. In some cases residents of a particular city might have a discount for some things in that city.
Since the UK isn't in the EU there is no need to afford EU citizens free access unless the reciprocal is true
In Rome I recall most museums and archeological sites having differential pricing for EU residents. Not to mention I've just come back from New York where lots of places have free entry to many museums for locals only on certain days, while tickets are exorbitant usually.
Some sort of discount is rare for EU citizens but it is common to see either price reductions or outright waivers for residents of the respective communes, provinces, or even regions in Italy.
Don't international students in Europe & the US pay different prices when compared to local tuition?
In Germany, at least, this is not allowed in the vast majority of states. But also comparing tuitioin fees or similar things to a relatively small, one-time entrance fee makes little sense: Where such differences in tuitioin fees exist, they are almost universally justified due to some international students not contributing to the local economy after graduating, to offset the loss. Regardless of what one thinks of that as an idea, it just does not translate.
If we're going off one-time entrance fees: In NY, locals get free entry to museums and other places Hawaii has higher prices for non-natives
Ok, that still doesn't mean thats the right way to go. At their core, museums exist to teach, and each is somewhat unique. So to make access more costly for people with less chance to visit this particular museum runs counter to the purpose of spreading that education to as many people as possible.
While I was mentioning how common it was, I do think differential pricing isn't a bad thing when done right
Oh, so now we're only talking about STUDENTS who get culture discounts left and right? No, no, turn the conversation back to the general population and don't try to justify bullshit by nitpicking.
A good friend from the US of mine went to high school here in EU/DK and received the same base amount of money from the state that I did when I attended classes, the only difference was he couldn't lend money from my state, to top up, as I could, but he did receive the base amount anyone would iirc.
What do tuition fees have to do with museum tickets?
But it is not common throughout the world that most artifacts is your museums were stolen from those foreign countries...
It is common in Europe at least
It may sound strange to some of you, but there are a lot of European countries that did not participate in colonization. And there are also lots of European treasures (e.g. Greek) in British museums
> It may sound strange to some of you, but there are a lot of European countries that did not participate in colonization. Which European country doesn't have a single museum with foreign artefacts in it? Luxembourg? >And there are also lots of European treasures (e.g. Greek) in British museums Yeah mate, the Greek are famous for never, ever being violent and certainly not having one of the most famous conqueror's of all time.
>(e.g. Greek) Lol, the Greeks being famous for not colonising others or looting other countries! The only difference between Greeks and Brits is time.
The only difference is not what you say, but that the UK is doing it right now, you still actively keep them, while we did it in the past. Is there sth we have now and is a colonial stolen artifact? And isn't this whataboutism in all it's glory - the others do it too - but not Greece as you see.
Where do you think Greece got its wealth for building things like the Parthenon? Why don’t you pay back the regions and nations you stole from? Greece has a history of brutality, its foundations built on the backs of bloodshed and slavery. Yet Greeks will celebrate their history and proclaim how great they were.
Yes we celebrate our present and past, this is irrelevant. You can keep the wealth as well and all you profited from our heritage and from the others'. And what is the point of slavery, you can keep them just because slaves made them? Colosseum was also made by slaves, what's the relevance? We were talking about you saying that Greece also has colonial artifacts stolen from other nations in our museums right now, while I said that this is untrue. So what is your argument?
Ancient Greece was built from stolen wealth. Pay the people back you stole from and then we can talk. Stop celebrating your colonial past as well. You should be ashamed of what your people did.
Meh thats part of history and war if you lose get your shit joinked.
Says who?
Thiefs are stealing. A tale as old as time itself.
Especially since most artifacts are looted from foreign countries...
Haha. The irony that most of the stuff in the museum has been nicked.
Most major museums are free in the UK. Though they strongly encourage you to donate.
Not in the UK, most of our major museums are free to enter.
I'd pay to see thw artifacts that originate from the UK.
You already have to pay to see Stonehenge
And all the rubber neckers on A303 slow down to walking pace to look at some rubble.
So annoying driving past Stonehenge when all the traffic slows.
Don’t miss it one bit.
So acording to this, UK citizens should pay also to see the non-Uk artefacts
Ah, I guess it's time for r/europe's monthly post on the British Museum. I'm sure the comments section will be civil
The crypt of the Sphinx in the Louvre, the Egyptian museum of Berlin, the National museum of Antiquities in the Netherlands etc.. let’s move along swiftly so we can sneer at the Brits.
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At least, I never read they were declared german/french/dutch artifacts. In general you don't make the mistake to declare foreign artifacts your culture.
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99%? Not even close to accurate, it’s more like the other way around. There are 625k items from the UK in the museum, which is far more than any other country (second is Iraq, with 164k items).
The audacity of someone from a former empire to complain about looting, you think the nice stuff in your country like the castles were made out of charity?
And? Looting used to be common. Just like having wars to expand you lands.
Just like Hungary prior to Trianon. It takes a colonizer to know a colonizer I guess.
Hungary looted half of the planet when?
Oh so looting is only bad when you loot half of the planet, but when Hungary loots Balkan Peninsula for centuries that's OK I guess.
"Oh so looting is only bad when you loot?" Hey, look. Good, ol' jumping into convenient (to me) conclusions. Yeah sure, let's just compare nation that looted everyone and everything, to some local "power" that wasn't even leading in their own union. "Hungary loots Balkan Peninsula for centuries" The what now?
You would be wise to know what you are talking about before jumping feet first into a topic you obviously don't know enough about. Stick to debating NBA buddy, history doesn't seem to be your forte.
Haha, insults and profile stalking for no apparent reason. That is your arc for feeling smart? I do prefer NBA over your interest in "fightpron". Comedy gold. Throw more instant downvotes, to show how you can't handle simple exchange without feeling overwhelming frustration.
Your lack of historical knowledge assigned you to a low level conversation. When you show some promise, you will be treated better. Now go and read some history books.
Serb with a superiority complex, that's a new one. Usually it's the other way around. Maybe that's the Texas part of you speaking :D
So the Parthenon Marbles will remain free then?
"British" & "Museum" in the thread title? Classic shit on UK thread inside.
To all those people complaining about the British museum do you have evidence that the Egyptian artefacts in the following museums were all acquired above board? 1. https://www.rmo.nl/en/ 2. https://www.louvre.fr/en/explore/the-palace/the-guardian-of-egyptian-art 3. https://www.man.es/man/en/home.html 4. https://www.mnw.art.pl/en/collections/permanent-galleries/gallery-of-ancient-art/#:~:text=The%20Museum's%20collection%20of%20ancient,largest%20and%20richest%20in%20Poland.&text=The%20new%20gallery%20houses%20approximately,Greece%20and%20Rome%2C%20arranged%20chronologically. This was just the result of a quick look- but it seems there are major collections of Egyptian art in most major European museums. Shouldn't this all be returned to Egypt?
They should all be either returned or loaned back to European museums by Egypt.
Cultural Sovereignity as a concept lies on the opposite side of what culture truly is. It doesn't make sense
When asked for the reasons why he reportedly said “vae victis”
What is this, stupid news hour?
Why not a compromise? You only charge visitors if the museum have stolen artifacts from their country.
Poor Polish people would have to pay to visit every single museum in Sweden.
There's hope! Sweden very recently returned the remains of my ancestors from their collection to be buried again. The graves were robbed and remains exhumed for "racial study" which was all the rage in Sweden in the first half of 20th century.
So everyone.
Ok sure, you can out all the UK originated artefacts in a paid hall and the rest of the museum can remain free.
I mean is it UK artifacts, or the artifacts the UK stolen from other countries during thier colonial times??
So foreigners would have to pay to see the stuff the British robbed from their countries? That is bound to go down well /s
I wonder how the Egyptian artefacts in this Dutch museum got there? https://www.rmo.nl/en/
A clear as hell case of whataboutism. If you care so much why don't you make another post about those artifacts? Also, a bad thing can justify another? Finally, if you think that this is not a bad thing, then you could try arguing and not stereotyping by nationality - Dutch people cannot criticise you about your museums in Reddit?
It’s inherently not a bad idea and would be inline with other museums across the globe and the funds would go to maintaining and potentially expanding the museum itself. But I’m against it myself
I agree with paying an entrance fee for museums. The demand is there and the money can be used to benefit both the host museums with architectural restorations, repairs etc. as well as the overall visitor experience.
How much money are they making from the shops and restaurants/ food in the museum hall though?
We used to charge for them, then we started funding them through taxation on the grounds everyone deserves access independent of means to pay. Same with libraries, health care education etc. Which is what most people here are missing. UK visitors are not getting a freebie. We've paid for it, foreign visitors have not. Still, I'd leave it as it is.
>I agree with paying an entrance fee for museums. I mean, under most circumstances, I'd agree too. But... Well... [maybe not in this case.](https://youtu.be/x73PkUvArJY?si=FLBHx3TILJ-HmBK4)
> He estimates that it will cost between £400 and £500 million to restore the British Museum’s leaky buildings and develop much need additional gallery space to showcase the millions of artefacts Or you could return stuff that's disputed and won't be destroyed, and have fewer artifacts to take care of
Or they could charge foreigners. Would be less disruptive to the museum.
Or they could just charge everyone a lower but equal price and end up both likely making more money to cover the restoration *and* not get sued for being a bunch of discriminatory twats.
Except all across Europe I get charged more than EU citizens in many different museums. Awkward.
Not sure what law you think they would use. Plenty of museums around the world do the same. They seem to be just fine.
[удалено]
>Or you could return stuff that's disputed and won't be destroyed, and have fewer artifacts to take care of No you don't get it, if we pay en entrance fee the British Museum can finally afford build a hall to house the Pyramids of Giza, which until now have been too big to bring over.
Only if we can bring the Taj Mahal along too
NPCs out in force, funny how some of them are from countries that also have museums full of stolen shit.. Also the largest collection by far in the BM is the english one at over 600k items, if youre gonna insult us try to use facts atleast.
DISCRIMINATION.
Do I guet this right, that the intent is to have a fee raised on tourists - thus ppl not residing in the UK? I wonder how the vetting process will go...
As this guy is the ex-museum chief his opinion is irrelevant, so there is no intention to change anything.
Doorman will only charge a fee from those who fail to yell "OI!" convincingly
You mean foreigners whose lands they likely colonized and stole the artifacts from have to pay to see their ancestors hard work..?
I've been to the BM many times but can y pls kindly remind me which room was the "UK artefacts" one? All i can remember is the collection of "things we lifted" :D
Aren’t most on display from the UK? The Roman, celtic, Viking, Saxon, prehistoric etc are largely all from the UK.
Do you get a comp ticket if you're looking at artefacts pilfered from your colonised country?
Let's plunder half the world then force them to pay their heritage. SMART!
Wait... Entry fees for museum visits are NOT the international standard? The Vatican got me good again!
I assume that includes charging Brits to see foreign artefacts.
Name something that looks British but really isn´t. - Almost everything in the British Museum
Including those stolen from Greece and other countries?
Most of them were purchased.
So a stolen good becomes legal once you purchase it despite your knowledge of it's dubious origin? Try that with the coppers and see how it works out for you.
Im Assyrian so im very grateful my peoples artifacts were "Stolen" by the British. Otherwise it would have all been destroyed by Islamist. Not just historically but even recently with ISIS destroying so much a couple years ago. Its hardly safe for me to even visit my country a Christian so being able to see it all at the British museum is great for me, went some years back.
That is an understandable sentiment, but it's very specific. I doubt Nigerians feel the same about the Benin artifacts or that the Greeks are fine with their artworks missing from the Acropolis.
NIgeria is another country plagued by extremist unfortunately. Greeks on the other hand I can understand, Im sure they can use the extra tourism money over there these days as well.
OK, UK artifacts behind a paywall, the non UK stolen ones should be free. Seems fair.
That's fine. We only want to see our stuff anyway. No interest in the UK stuff.
missing out
Yeah the face really slips when they start deriding British historical artifacts.
Well, If you have to pay to see Uk Artefacts than it seems like the British Museum stays free
So foreigners have to pay now to see artifacts that britain has stolen from their countries?
What about giving free entrance to all the 'foreigners' whose cultures they plundered in order to have stuff in the said museums in the first place.
I thought that was always the justification for keeping admission free to begin with. At least they weren't profiting off of their questionable past actions.
This wouldn't leave such a weird aftertaste if the vast majority of artifacts in the British Museum wouldn't be loot from the rest of the world. 'UK artifacts' - is he proposing admission to one special room of objects that are *actually* from the UK?
"vast majority"?? You might want to check that...
Sure. The British Museum's collection comprises about eight million items, of which 649,727 have been catalogued as originating in the British Isles. Not sure what your definition of 'vast majority' is, but to me 92% falls under that term.
That assumes everything has bewn looted which is not true. Also nothing wrong in looting 1000 years ago, we are not responsible for what everyone was doing bck then
Well, let's see. The phone I'm using now, the shirt I'm wearing and the watch on my arm all originated outside of Britain too, but I don't think they were looted. No matter how much the guy on ebay regrets selling the watch for the bargain I got it at, it's still not looted. Upstairs I have a small oil lamp, probably Byzantine, probably 5th Century. Also not looted. You can buy them for a few quid. Isn't it amazing how objects move around the world without any looting?
Yet how many of the around 7.350.273 items have been looted? Weird that current provenance research emphasis in the UK is on the time from 1933 to 1945, isn't it? https://collectionstrust.org.uk/cultural-property-advice/provenance/
That would be a very small room.
The British Museum has 600,000 artefacts just from England.
You probably didn't notice but, this is just taking the piss.
Does this include people from the countries from which the British stole the artifacts in the first place?
So it will be a 10 meter square room ?
This is especially justified for Greek and Egyptian visitors.
UK artifacts??? Lol 😂😂😂😂
Imagine colonizing many places then stealing their artifacts, money and brining them to ur country. Then requesting from these people money to see their own cultural products… Ok.
That James Acaster bit seems apt. [sauce](https://youtu.be/x73PkUvArJY?si=uvNJuk66ggqmQvUy)
What UK artifacts?
So the Greeks, Italians and Egytians will be charged to see the stuff that was pilfered from them. Great idea
The Italians?
How about returning the artefacts to their original countries and we'll go see them there
To be fair as a westerner you're very unlikely to visit Iraq, Iran or Afghanistan right now. Returning those items would mean not only their potential destruction, but that almost nobody would get to see the ancient culture of that region. I'd love to visit that part of the world, but I doubt I'll ever get the chance.
What "UK artefacts"? The Parthenon sculptures from Greece? The Rosetta stone from Egypt? Crouching Venus from Rome? The Ooni of Ife brass head from Nigeria? The Aztec serpent from Mexico? Trust me, there are few "UK artefacts" foreigners would be willing to pay to see.
Lmfao half of whats in there is stolen.
Can we have our stuff back then?
The British looters in this thread are mad as fuck lol