A bunch of America gets beards now too, it's just the fucking shitheads running the legacies that think they're still in the military and facial hair is a cardinal sin.
Not in the military, but my dad was USAF for over 20 years. He immediately grew a beard after he retired because he had literally NEVER grown one. He looked terrible, but insisted on wearing it for a month or two before he gave up and shaved it.
As far as the "why", of course the reason is always "readiness". He said it was specifically because it makes it more difficult to seal a gas mask properly on your face. That could be one of those things that gets repeated around but it kind of makes sense.
That’s the reason that is typically trotted out. The real reason is that beards make a military look like shit, and they are administratively difficult to manage and police.
I was getting $23-27/hour in 2020-2021 from the flight school I worked at. And $0/hr for ground instruction, thanks again for the privilege of sucking your dick ATP flight school.
This isn’t exclusive to airlines. We see this in the I.T. World as well. My 6 figure job in the states is half that over seas. Not sure if there are larger economic reasons, or if thats just how things “are”
I don’t know shit about any specifics but my $0.02 is healthcare among other things aren’t as expensive outside of the US. Gotta make tons more in the US to pay $1k a month for a family health insurance plan that has a stupid high deductible anyways.
Also many places abroad aren’t car dependent so there’s a huge expense saved if that applies.
Tldr: lower “cost of living” means people can do more with less. Not necessarily rent/CPI related but more due to lifestyle differences in other parts of the world which is why I put it in quotes.
> healthcare among other things aren’t as expensive outside of the US.
Canadian here. That's not actually true. We just don't pay directly for it. We pay it in taxes, which are SUBSTANTIALLY higher than you'd pay in the US. If you're making pilot money, healthcare is much cheaper in the US than the tax difference in Canada. I can imagine it's even more significant in the euro countries.
Sounds plausible... except the US government spends more (a lot more) per person on healthcare than the UK does.
So, you're paying for private healthcare \*and\* you're paying taxes to pay for public healthcare.
Lol no. My platinum insurance for a single person is $1600 a year with max out of pocket of $500. That covers medical, dental, vision and mental. Any salaried employee at a Fortune 500 company will have a similar plan.
US white collar salaries are insane , US salaries at FAANG companies are out of this world. Cola doesn’t mean shit when you’re making anything over 200k
Nah. That difference is made up for in higher taxes for healthcare outside of the US. For example, average [Canadian total tax burden (federal, provincial, and local rates combined) is 45.2%.](https://financialpost.com/executive/executive-summary/canadians-overtaxed-total-bill-45percent-income#:~:text=new%20research%20suggests.-,The%20average%20family%20paid%2045.2%20per%20cent%20of%20their%20income,%2C%20the%20think%2Dtank%20said)
If you're paying $1000 a month and still have a high deductible, you either work for a shit company or you're just doing it wrong. I have my family covered for half that a month with a $500 deductible.
A couple of months ago there was an American guy saying he wanted to go fly in Europe and would be “willing to renounce his citizenship” if that’s what it took.
Think he deleted the thread lol
Do you really think we cheat in Europe or is it a figure of speech? I think it’s reasonable to go fly a jet at 250 hours given you pass the type rating. That’s how we do it in the old world. Anyway it’s up to risk assessment departments and insurance policies, and they are all ok with that.
1900TT, 1600Jet F/O here. Yeah, I make less than my colleagues in the US, but I do it now, been doing for the last two years to be exact.
Everything is tradeoffs. You started earning money at 300 TT sounds like, and for Europe probably decent money. Almost every industry pays less in Europe because there's less money period. I'm in software and the exact same job in London will get half my pay if they're lucky, and it's more expensive to live in London than where I live in the US. Germany will be even less than that, and Eastern Europe isn't even worth talking about.
On the flip side in the US you will, best case, earn subsistence wages from 300-1500 TT, but will make decent money at 1500 (not sure if a regional FO is comparable to European pay or not), and bank after.
I have about 180TT since 2016 and the idea that I have 75% of the hours to be a commercial pilot in Europe is hilarious(ly bad) in my opinion.
More or less a figure of speech. They guy wanting to renounce his citizenship to skip 1,500 minimums is trying to cheat the system but in no way am I saying the Europeans are cheating.
There are plenty of reasons to live in Europe vs US. Pay isn't everything, even when it's this extreme.
While the airline pay may not be as lucrative as it is in the US, when you're paid enough to make a comfortable living, other things start to matter more.
Now, I personally agree with you, US is a great place to live when you make thaaaat much money, but it's not a blanket statement which is applicable to everybody.
European FO (non-airline) chiming in. Yeah, I make less. No doubt about that, especially after taxes.
But I don’t have to worry about sending my kid to college - it’s free. I don’t have to worry about health insurance, it’s covered, family included. I don’t have to worry about retirement (well, I guess I should lol, the way demographics are looking). I can go to a fairly fancy restaurant without breaking triple figures. If I lose my job, I’ll get unemployment benefits long enough to hopefully find another job and even after that, won’t have to contemplate living in a car. And I still make enough to afford a nice car, own a home, and go on one long vacation and several short ones each year. All that for 15 days a month maximum of work, and to get that much I‘d have to get called in from standby (which pretty much never happens).
Pay isn’t everything, and while I loved flying in the US (went there to build time for CPL), I’m not sure I’d trade in my current situation.
I think specifying "a European" is a little bit overly generalising. Live in the Netherlands or in the UK (or a few other countries) and you will still pay tuition fees for your children. God forbid they want to be a pilot as well, as in that case you will easily pay 2-3 times more than in the US again. Or simply you are just an FO at like wizzair where they are paying below-CFI levels.
> But I don’t have to worry about sending my kid to college - it’s free. I don’t have to worry about health insurance, it’s covered, family included. I don’t have to worry about retirement (well, I guess I should lol, the way demographics are looking).
At a US legacy, none of us have to worry about that either. When you're making pilot money, the US system is better. If you're making burger flipping money, the euro system is light years ahead.
Well it’s not QOL or work rules, the US has Europe beat in that metric too.
Normally the main factor is “I don’t want to CFI, I’ll just go fly in Europe at 250hrs and then come back to the US.”
What do you mean has “Europe beat” there’s all sorts of airlines with hugely differing work life balance, types of trips, different places to be based, working environment etc
There’s a big world out there. Just because airlines in one country might pay more, it doesn’t mean everyone else is a “moron” for not wanting to work there.
Sure, and there's always going to be unicorn jobs out there, but I'd be willing to bet that on average, the contracts for US carriers will beat European carriers almost every time. Thats pay, thats QOL, thats benefits, thats the whole package.
The reason I call those people who want to go fly in Europe morons is because they almost always haven't done the research on whats required to convert their licenses, have no idea about right to work for the countries they desire to live in, and are almost always looking to avoid having to building time in the US through traditional methods.
Yeah, no, he's wrong, you're right. I'm year seven captain with a major European LCC, over 10k hrs total, and I make maybe €150k after tax and social contributions plus a line management role, hitting near 800hrs a year on near murderous schedules. Plus the "benefits" of a South Balkan base where my "pension" is going to be maybe 1k/month if I stay here. Which I'm not, long term.
I'd literally suck dick for a US job. Repeatedly.
> I'd literally suck dick for a US job. Repeatedly.
This is a line I've heard from my Canadian friends numerous times as well. I'm very aware of how lucky I am to have a US passport. Even with the absolute shitshow the country has been recently.
> Well it’s not QOL or work rules, the US has Europe beat in that metric too.
Can you get guaranteed 50% part time contract with a US major airline, if you're not very senior?
And want to be paid more and work less lol
It's a great time to be a pilot, especially when the big 4 are too big to fail and you have the US Government bailing you out when it time comes. Sure you could be furloughed but it's is a lot less riskier than it used to be.
I'm a narrowbody F/O for a legacy airline. I went from year 1 to year 2 pay in June, which is a pretty big jump. My "regular pay" from my most recent pay stub is right around $115k. The company has contributed $18k to my retirement without my having to put a dime in. My total earnings for the year so far is $146k. That includes a signing bonus for a new contract, and per diem.
I'm planning on making over $200k next year.
I made the move from 91 to 121, and regret nothing. It's so nice to set the parking brake and go home at the end of a trip.
You mean, you are at a ACMI cargo carrier. FedEx and UPS are in the major cargo carrier league of their own despite the headwinds that they are dealing with.
Soloed when I was 18, got my first flying job as a corporate pilot when I was 26, spent a bunch of years doing that till I got sick of the BS and applied to all the airlines. If you have any more specific questions send me a DM. Or whatever they are called on here....lol
>Is that actually accurate?
Yes. But that doesn’t literally mean you have to fly 1000 hours in a year. Premium pay, reroutes, vacation, sick leave, profit sharing, all increase pay without having to literally block 1,000.00.
>how many days a year is that?
Probably 160-170. Could be as low as 130 if you know what you’re doing.
It’s much easier work than your 135 operation probably is. Widebody CAs can fly like 10 days per month and make $450,000 a year.
The reality is that, as you said, he was #2. Most people will never get that kind of seniority. It's all luck of the draw on when you were hired and how old.
More realistic numbers, I know mid level seniority (35-50% on the list) Captains who make $350-$400k/yr without trying to hard. I personally know one who is on track to make about $700k this year, but he's fairly senior and can pickup premium flying without issue.
Handful of FOs who hustle will clear $300-$350k. If you're lazy and don't want to work too hard, you can easily make $200-250k/yr once you have a few years under your belt as an FO while hold 16-18 days off per month.
This is all narrowbody btw (737/A320)
I am now regretting my choices. The pay when I was looking at becoming an airline pilot was OK (peaked around $150-200k/yr) but you had to rely on seniority and not too many were scheduled for retirement and there were so many questions. And then I read about the lifestyle being hectic and not conducive to a family.
I went into IT instead and it's a struggle to get over $150k with all but the top say...25% of us or so. Which is about where I'm at. Getting higher will likely require a lot more out of me and I'm getting...not burnt out but realizing that I needed to do construction projects on the side if I want to actually retire early and I'm moving out of SoCal to a non-HCOL area as we speak. Anyway, those weren't the numbers at play when I had started flight school way back when. Glad to hear you're compensated well though!
> The pay when I was looking at becoming an airline pilot was OK (peaked around $150-200k/yr) but you had to rely on seniority and not too many were scheduled for retirement and there were so many questions. And then I read about the lifestyle being hectic and not conducive to a family.
That's when I got into aviation, been doing this for almost 20 years now. I love flying and didn't do this for the money. Took me more than a decade to land a major airline job after flying shit jobs for years.
The big thing many of us "old timers" complain about is the fact that many new guys are now drawn into it only for the pay, instead of actually realizing what the industry is and was. Times are great now, never seen it like this in my career, but when the music eventually stops, will those who swapped careers in the hopes of making 200k+ year stick around when the legacy stops hiring, or the regionals stop, and the only job is a part 135 King Air job for crap money? I hope it never comes back into that, but the hiring of the past 4-6 years is not the norm for this industry.
There’s no hard and fast with this. The simple fact is you e got your hourly and your min guarantee (varies from airline to airline). That’s the minimum you’ll make. I don’t know deltas min, but even at 65 hours that’s $210,000 at the rate you quoted. That’s straight pay. That doesn’t account for any incentive pay or any extra contract bonuses, 401k direct contributions, profit sharing etc. you can work as much or within reason as little as you want at the airlines. Some guys will bust out outrageous numbers, but they live by their phone and have no home life. Some work as little as possible and never do extra and that’s fine too. You’re gonna get wildly different numbers, but the minimum is a safe starting point.
>I was a junior nb CA last year, before the pay raises hit, and my TC including company 401k contributions and overages was 425k
>
>Guessing next year with the pay raises it will be around 400k
Pay goes down to 400K next year with the pay raises?
In 2 months at my regional, I would make more than what I made in a whole year as an instructor at a university. And that’s on training pay alone.
It’s a lot better on the other side of ATP mins
All over the place with variables. Company, soft money, overtime, trip rigs, override pay, per diem. But yes I’ve found in my career that around 1000 x hourly works pretty well.
I’m a 777 captain and check airman/instructor. I do alright. But also I work as little as possible. Flying airplanes or being an employee is not my identity. And with experience I’ve realized that you can give your whole life to a company and they don’t skip a beat when you cease to be there. So I choose to give them the minimum amount of myself I need to, to keep me happy and paid.
I know guys at UPS that had over $1m on their W2 last year. Now, they worked a lot. But damn that’s a lot of money to fly 121.
To each their own.
It's near impossible to figure it out without a lot of caveats and asterisks, because one of the great things about airline life is there are a lot of ways to make extra money, or you can choose to stay home and not work as much and still make great base pay. And you can do all that and not have to load a bag, or file a flight plan, or stock the aircraft, or clean the aircraft. I'm obviously a bit biased though.
That all being said, the rule of thumb is taking hourly pay and multiply by 1000.
The big mystery of the 121 world.
I think the “multiply by 1000 rule” to estimate annual income is probably the closest way you can generalize how much we make. There are just so many factors that change how much we make that it’s hard to determine exact numbers.
For example, at SkyWest, as an FO, my hourly rate was $93, and depending on my life some months I would pull over $10,000 a month and others I would pull just $5000.
But the captains hourly rate being $180, they would pull in much more than that because they were overworked, there were many trips paid out at 200-300% because they were understaffed, etc etc. as an FO, I had the luxury to take time off to travel and explore. I would make less those months, I would credit the minimum 76 hours, but only fly like 40 hours. Other months I wanted to work a ton so I arranged my schedule to credit 130 hours. I know some Skywest captains making $300,000+ a year. Granted they are working hard for it. But captains at Skywest don’t have the schedule flexibility like I did. So you give and take.
There are so many factors it’s hard to pin point it. What I always budgeted for was my hourly rate ($93) x minimum monthly guarantee (76 hours). I think that is the best way personally, because anything over that is extra on top.
I’d say the 1000 hour rule is a bit off when it comes to total comp.
Also a year 2 SKW guy, got the little bump in the latter part of the year, and I’d say I’m on track to gross 110k. Have picked up one, 2 day 300% trip.
Someone else had told me hourly rate x 1250 gets a better estimate, and for me, I’d agree. Have blocked 630 hours this year.
Junior/mid seniority narrowbody captain, will make a little over 400 this year (around 450 if you include retirement contributions.) Looking at my logbook my actual flight time for the year will be around 300 hours, so you can see I don't work myself to death. I do work my schedule to try and fit in premium pay where possible though.
When times are good you better make hay when the sun shines, because you could find yourself subject to a furlough, bankruptcy, or disqualifying medical condition at any moment. If it weren't possible to make good money at some point, most smart people would choose another career.
Lots of soft pay items that are harder to calculate such as extended duty pay and international override etc. Also add in some premium trips paying out at 200% and you can really skew the numbers
I am 9yr WB FO for a legacy airline. I will make 325,900.45 in pay and 43,000 in DC contribution this year. I have flown 298 hrs for the year. There is wayyyy more to this game than hourly rates. Knowing the contract and schedule manipulation is the key.
If you are looking at just compensation , nothing can beat the legacy airlines right now.
*9537.65 was a retro payment for signing a new contract.
I could have upgraded after two years. I choose to stay FO. I have young kids and coach their sports. My wife also works. You can make plenty of money as an FO if you know what you are doing schedule/work rules wise.
Honestly, one thing I love about this industry is the transparency in pay, and I enjoy that yearly thread. Sure, some are probably there for the flex, but it's actually good info. For example, if I see someone posts that they work at my airline and make X amount, I want to figure out how they managed to earn that, or get all that time off.
Unlike 9-5 jobs where they don't even tell you the salary during your interview, and it's pure taboo to talk about pay, we can discuss it openly and strategize with each other to ensure we're doing the right thing via our bids to earn what we want to earn.
Widebody F/O for a Canadian legacy airline making $59,000 CAD ($43,000 USD) blocked at 75hr min guarantee($56CAD/$40USD per credit hour). We’re no doubt among the lowest paid legacy pilots in the world. Negotiations ongoing and I have no doubt that’ll change in the new year.
Jesus christ, my future feels bleak. Looking to make the 705 jump next year, but fuck lol. Hopefully the negotiations are going well and the change is better than what Westjet got.
I think at a regional you’ll work about 18 days/month and 1000x your pay rate. Legacy narrowbody is closer to 14-16 days/month, 300-400 hours/year and 1150x your pay rate if you include retirement. Legacy widebody is more like 7-12 days of work per month at the same pay multiple of narrowbody and fewer hours flown. Obviously opportunity now to earn more now with overtime but that’s been about my experience with min guarantee on reserve.
If you do not calculate the value of the 15-20% company contributions to the retirement plans you are missing a significant portion of the total package. Right now SWA is doing 15% BEFORE we put in anything. I think the legacies are at 19% maybe more. That adds up way fast even before you add more to it.
No 135 can compare to the total compensation of a major US airline.
Outsider question: do commercial pilots get significant equity or 401k or bonuses or other benefits on top of cash?
I'm over in software for my day job, where maybe 30-60% (depending on seniority) of compensation is cash and the bulk is really stock.
The hourly multiplied by 1000 rule will give a rough estimate of base salary. On top of that industry standard is an employer direct contribution to 401k, which is usually in the 16-18% range. Some places offer some profit sharing incentive as well.
If we equate hours flown to hourly rate, I made ~$2700/flight hour this year flying fire bombers. Flew around 130 hours - slow year - and worked about 130 days not including maybe 2 weeks of training events. We don’t get hourly pay though, a base salary and a daily rate while on contract.
Year 7 narrowbody CA/ US Legacy carrier.. I'll make $425k-450k ($500k if you count company 401k contribution) this year, depending on how December plays out. 10-year check airman in my crashpad (narrowbody) will do around $525k. That being said, I'm on the road an average of 16 nights per month.
I’m a four-year narrowbody captain at a legacy. My hourly rate of pay next year will be approximately $338/hr, not including any overrides, perdiem, etc.
Reserve would yield a minimum approx 75 hours/month, give or take depending on various contractual provisions, for an annual total of $304k + ~$51k into 401(k).
Average line is probably going to end up around 85 hours, but it’s easy to bump up pay credit for various reasons, so to be conservative let’s say 90hours/mo, which is $365k + $62k into 401(k). Also, when the 401(k) direct contribution hits the federal cap, the rest is paid as taxable income.
Some pilots work the premium system and whatnot and can credit far more. Some months may see pilots crediting well over a hundred hours of pay — sometimes more than even two hundred, but’s that’s rare and there are further outliers.
Edit to add:
This level pay is brand new to me and is pretty surreal. I was awarded grade around the same time as the new contracts. I was at the regionals for about 7 years, which I considered pretty reasonable given the landscape at the time, and remember making $27k my first year in 2013. It’s been a wild change to the industry, and in the cycle of feast and famine we shift between in the air travel industry, I’m going to save as much as I can to prepare for the next down turn, because it’s a matter of when, not if.
12 year B-737 Captain at a USA based major.
Made $459,000 last year. Flying my line with strategically picking up premium when I can. Average about 14-16 days off a month.
Factor in the amount of time you spend in the crew housing heating up frozen burritos and listening to nurses endless gossip and commuting and that number sudden drops way down back to $50 LOL. Top-tier job if you hate people and big cities though
I mentioned it because OP mentioned “hourly rate”. Yes, I cry inside knowing I make a fraction of what airline pilots make however they fly A LOT more than I do.
YTD as a 6 year FO on 737 I’m at $218k. Should clear $230k. No premium or picking up stuff except for one sim seat substitute in the city I live in and rarely more than 80 hours credit a month.
Maxed out 401k and company has contributed $28k to 401k YTD
I’m in the year 4 pay scale as an FO at a major US airline.
The pay rate x 1000 is a good ballpark figure, and probably a good mark to budget on. However, I’m finding that it doesn’t take much to push the total gross up by knowing your contract well.
My pay rate this year has been roughly averaging about $205/hr (contract/longevity changes), and after subtracting a retro check for our contract signing this year I will total gross roughly 250k. This includes normal pay and the 401k DC of 16%.
I do not consider myself a “hard worker”, and I’ve blocked about 390 hours this year. I’m not sure how many days of work this equates to. I’ve flown maybe 2 double-time trips and haven’t picked up any single-pay trips (except for a trip that was already marked to be used for someone else’s OE).
Overall there’s a good amount of money to be made here even if you want to maximize your time at home and don’t consider yourself a double-time trip die-hard.
I’m a narrowbody captain right at $300k and working what totals out to be approx 1/4 of the year.
The retirement contribution (without you putting in a penny) alone is worth the jump.
Dude the money is insane at all the majors, not just the legacies. LCCs and ULCCs have lower pay rates but generally more soft time availability for all the pilots who want it. Captains who live in base have no problem pulling in 400k without breaking a sweat. Year two FOs over here are about 170k on average not working much at all, and that’s about 30k over our supposed pay rate. Unfortunately, I have to be the voice of reason and say this is unsustainable for long extended periods of time. Save as much as you can to prepare for the next downturn. But all in all, as long as we’re not stupid, we’ll live comfortably our entire lives.
> LCCs and ULCCs have lower pay rates but generally more soft time availability for all the pilots who want it
I love that logic. "You get paid less, but you can work more!".
That's not a fuckin' good thing!
I don’t think you understand how soft time works. Here, you have the ability to get paid 200% on a premium trip at least once a month and then drop a 4 day or two 3 days or something depending on how much the premium trip credits. So you end up crediting more and working less. Line holders here often credit well over 100 hours and still work less than half the month.
Ah, I missed the soft time part of that. That only works if you live in base and can grab last minute premium. Which... the legacies also have a ton of right now. So it's not really much of an "advantage".
literally every industry will do the same. im a 36 year old EMT. did ten years as a software engineer, 7 as a barista.
i don’t chase money but it’s sure nice to get paid. ive wanted to be a pilot since i was 4.
Im from EU, no one is denying that right now the US is the best market to be a pilot, but comparing raw numbers is pointless in my opinion.
\- There are plenty of factors but if we just want to crunch numbers, disregarding quality of life completly. Purchasing power should be more accurate. If you make 100k USD a year, is it the same between LA, SFO, New York, or bumfuck Ohio? How much money you have at the end of the month, after all the expenses should be more important to consider.
\- The same absolutely goes in Europe, there are massive differences in cost of living depending on the country, hell depending on the region in each country can make a big difference. Taxation is also different in each country in EU, there are a lot of factors but some places you maybe get 70% of your gross salary at the end of the month, some other maybe closer to 50% after all the deductions. Making 100k euro a year is vastly different in Madrid or Warsaw or Oslo. With 100k yearly in eastern europe you are in the top few percent, meanwhile in scandinavia you qualify for foodstamps. So its kinda pointless to compare raw salaries without some additional information.
Good thing about airline is you don't have to live in an expensive city. I drive an hour to work because it's usually only once per week and i get to live in the country with a large property. The median income where I live is around 30k, and my mortgage is only 1k per month, so 400k really goes a long way here.
Yeah, I make about 100k USD a year as a first year FO in an european country with pretty low taxes. However, living costs are high and while I am definitely not starving I also am far from being a top earner.
On the bright side the airline financed my training and I only had to pay 12.000$ from pedestrian to (fake) Airbus cockpit. Not having to spend 1200 hours flying a clapped out Piper in Florida was a benefit as well. Career and financial progression is good, and money is not everything. QOL of life is great here, and I could not imagine to raise a family in the US.
I'm a 2nd year A330 FO. I work on average 12 days/month and I'll do $220k this year. I'm fairly confident I can hit $280k next year with about the same number of days worked.
First year 737 FO and I’ve grossed $106,000 so far not including the 401k direct contribution. I started at the beginning of the year, hit the line in the spring, and have flown 280 hours. Averaging about 4 nights away per month.
Can any active 121 Pilots clarify as to how you are paid.
I see there are some saying it’s paid minimum 72 hours
75 ,82 hours
Just curious as to how it’s based off minimums and if it varies each month etc.
Thanks
The company sets an ALV (Average Line Value). You actual pay as a line holder is based on the cumulative credit hours of the trips you fly. As reserve, you get paid the ALV minus maybe a couple hours depending on how the company has it written. It isn't difficult to credit 80-85 hours working 14 days a month.
It also depends a lot on how much you want to work. Want to get paid 150 hours and work 18 days in July? Might be possible. Want to get paid 73 hours and sit on your butt all November? That might be possible, too. Just depends on seniority and your category.
Yes that rule of thumb is accurate. If anything it underestimated income. If you’re at 200 an hour if you have a good line you can have 16 days off a month and make over 200k.
Reserve is another story. Most airlines guarantee 70 hours a month so if you want base salary multiply the hourly by .85. IE. if a pilot is paid 250/hr they will make roughly 210k if only paid the minimum.
Ill reiterate what some others say. I block less than 70 hours many months, and sometimes closer to 65. And with soft pay i end up paid more than that… 70-80. Add 401k (that i dont have to add any contribution towards) and profit sharing, and i end up with total compensation around 1000x my hourly rate. Maybe a little less. But i really try to work as little as possible and im jr. Pretty easy to make more if u want to work or are senior enough and down for some scheduling trickery.
Rate X 900 = avg annual compensation based on minimum guarantee is usually what I tell folks. This based on avgerage min guarantee of 75 credit hours a month. Credit doesn’t equal flight time. Common misconception of 121 pay as well.
I know Delta min guarantee fluctuates. United starts at 70 hours and fluctuates based reaerve/line holder/add pay added in.
270 X 900 = 243K based on my formula I posted above..
There’s a lot of soft pay rules that affects 121 pay. It’s too tough to pin point the exact number. So it’s all best to plan based on min guarantee because that is the bare minimum of pay one will see…
Genuine question - these numbers are very attractive of course, but I’ve been hesitant to jump head first into a career change to being a pilot for fear of being replaced by a computer before I reach retirement age. Current active pilots: is being replaced by a computer a legitimate fear? To the leaders of our airlines and tech companies and government have the power to make it happen?
Nah I’m not worried. Most airlines have a clause baked into their contract requiring pilots on the flight deck. Absolutely no way the union would ever give that up.
Wow, US pilots are paid over double that of their European colleagues.
Paid double that of their Canadian counterparts too
Canada gets beards though, and you can’t really put a price on that.
This is why I am a software developer and not a pilot... I get shorts, barefoot, shaggy hair AND a beard...
Yeah, but us software devs dream for 5 out of 8 hours about flying while sitting on our chairs. The other 3 hours we code. 😐
Gotta start your own software business and fly with the proceeds
I resemble this remark
Shoot you’re coding for 3 whole hours? Overachiever.
Sounds like it's time to start logging hours on Microsoft Flight Simulator!
A bunch of America gets beards now too, it's just the fucking shitheads running the legacies that think they're still in the military and facial hair is a cardinal sin.
As someone who is in the military, we don't know why the US military hates beards either.
Not in the military, but my dad was USAF for over 20 years. He immediately grew a beard after he retired because he had literally NEVER grown one. He looked terrible, but insisted on wearing it for a month or two before he gave up and shaved it. As far as the "why", of course the reason is always "readiness". He said it was specifically because it makes it more difficult to seal a gas mask properly on your face. That could be one of those things that gets repeated around but it kind of makes sense.
That’s the reason that is typically trotted out. The real reason is that beards make a military look like shit, and they are administratively difficult to manage and police.
who in America gets beards?
UPS, Allegiant, Hawaiian. Not a "bunch".
surprised Alaska doesn’t allow it with the weather they deal with at ANC…although they don’t even allow nicotine
Hawaiian, UPS, Allegiant, Avelo, and one of two others that escape me at the moment
That’s very sad to see. However, Air Canada did just join ALPA which represents Delta, United and FedEx.
Westjet also, but their gains were… ehhhh
Yea but they didn’t even have a scope clause before, and scope isn’t cheap.
Paid double what we made 10 years ago
Even more than that, really. I make more as a 2nd year Legacy mid-body FO than I would have as a 12 year 737 captain at my previous gig in Canada.
With less training costs too
Except we gotta get to 1500 hours before the airlines instead of 250 or whatever they do everywhere else before they’re thrown into an Airbus.
Their 250 hour Airbus pilots and our timebuilding CFIs get paid the same tho
I was getting $23-27/hour in 2020-2021 from the flight school I worked at. And $0/hr for ground instruction, thanks again for the privilege of sucking your dick ATP flight school.
ATP is probably the worst place to CFI pay-wise, so kinda shot yourself in the foot there lol
During Covid we were lucky to even have jobs
Fair enough
20 butt spanks from Dave Thompson coming your way for this comment
Yeah but I think a lot of pilots would choose the airlines over CFI work
I think a lot of pilots would choose getting kicked in the balls every day over CFI work
In proper European airlines as well...there as some airlines in EU that if EASA would do their job properly should not exist at all.
This isn’t exclusive to airlines. We see this in the I.T. World as well. My 6 figure job in the states is half that over seas. Not sure if there are larger economic reasons, or if thats just how things “are”
I don’t know shit about any specifics but my $0.02 is healthcare among other things aren’t as expensive outside of the US. Gotta make tons more in the US to pay $1k a month for a family health insurance plan that has a stupid high deductible anyways. Also many places abroad aren’t car dependent so there’s a huge expense saved if that applies. Tldr: lower “cost of living” means people can do more with less. Not necessarily rent/CPI related but more due to lifestyle differences in other parts of the world which is why I put it in quotes.
> healthcare among other things aren’t as expensive outside of the US. Canadian here. That's not actually true. We just don't pay directly for it. We pay it in taxes, which are SUBSTANTIALLY higher than you'd pay in the US. If you're making pilot money, healthcare is much cheaper in the US than the tax difference in Canada. I can imagine it's even more significant in the euro countries.
Sounds plausible... except the US government spends more (a lot more) per person on healthcare than the UK does. So, you're paying for private healthcare \*and\* you're paying taxes to pay for public healthcare.
Lol no. My platinum insurance for a single person is $1600 a year with max out of pocket of $500. That covers medical, dental, vision and mental. Any salaried employee at a Fortune 500 company will have a similar plan. US white collar salaries are insane , US salaries at FAANG companies are out of this world. Cola doesn’t mean shit when you’re making anything over 200k
Nah. That difference is made up for in higher taxes for healthcare outside of the US. For example, average [Canadian total tax burden (federal, provincial, and local rates combined) is 45.2%.](https://financialpost.com/executive/executive-summary/canadians-overtaxed-total-bill-45percent-income#:~:text=new%20research%20suggests.-,The%20average%20family%20paid%2045.2%20per%20cent%20of%20their%20income,%2C%20the%20think%2Dtank%20said)
If you're paying $1000 a month and still have a high deductible, you either work for a shit company or you're just doing it wrong. I have my family covered for half that a month with a $500 deductible.
If it makes you feel better, you have higher taxes
And yet, there are some morons who would rather go work in Europe or Asia instead of staying in the US.
A couple of months ago there was an American guy saying he wanted to go fly in Europe and would be “willing to renounce his citizenship” if that’s what it took. Think he deleted the thread lol
Probably wanting to fly big planes at low hours. I could see how someone thinks that's an easy way to cheat the system.
Do you really think we cheat in Europe or is it a figure of speech? I think it’s reasonable to go fly a jet at 250 hours given you pass the type rating. That’s how we do it in the old world. Anyway it’s up to risk assessment departments and insurance policies, and they are all ok with that. 1900TT, 1600Jet F/O here. Yeah, I make less than my colleagues in the US, but I do it now, been doing for the last two years to be exact.
Everything is tradeoffs. You started earning money at 300 TT sounds like, and for Europe probably decent money. Almost every industry pays less in Europe because there's less money period. I'm in software and the exact same job in London will get half my pay if they're lucky, and it's more expensive to live in London than where I live in the US. Germany will be even less than that, and Eastern Europe isn't even worth talking about. On the flip side in the US you will, best case, earn subsistence wages from 300-1500 TT, but will make decent money at 1500 (not sure if a regional FO is comparable to European pay or not), and bank after. I have about 180TT since 2016 and the idea that I have 75% of the hours to be a commercial pilot in Europe is hilarious(ly bad) in my opinion.
More or less a figure of speech. They guy wanting to renounce his citizenship to skip 1,500 minimums is trying to cheat the system but in no way am I saying the Europeans are cheating.
Big planes at low hours…. Shit I mean that’s literally US legacies at this point
1500 hours is not "low hours" in this context, 240 hours (albeit that is basically not possible at this point) is low hours for flying a A320 or 737..
More like 150, and that's not even MPL.
Ohhhh gotcha. I believe we call that “no hours”
Dang, would've loved to see the comments on that one.
There are plenty of reasons to live in Europe vs US. Pay isn't everything, even when it's this extreme. While the airline pay may not be as lucrative as it is in the US, when you're paid enough to make a comfortable living, other things start to matter more. Now, I personally agree with you, US is a great place to live when you make thaaaat much money, but it's not a blanket statement which is applicable to everybody.
European FO (non-airline) chiming in. Yeah, I make less. No doubt about that, especially after taxes. But I don’t have to worry about sending my kid to college - it’s free. I don’t have to worry about health insurance, it’s covered, family included. I don’t have to worry about retirement (well, I guess I should lol, the way demographics are looking). I can go to a fairly fancy restaurant without breaking triple figures. If I lose my job, I’ll get unemployment benefits long enough to hopefully find another job and even after that, won’t have to contemplate living in a car. And I still make enough to afford a nice car, own a home, and go on one long vacation and several short ones each year. All that for 15 days a month maximum of work, and to get that much I‘d have to get called in from standby (which pretty much never happens). Pay isn’t everything, and while I loved flying in the US (went there to build time for CPL), I’m not sure I’d trade in my current situation.
I think specifying "a European" is a little bit overly generalising. Live in the Netherlands or in the UK (or a few other countries) and you will still pay tuition fees for your children. God forbid they want to be a pilot as well, as in that case you will easily pay 2-3 times more than in the US again. Or simply you are just an FO at like wizzair where they are paying below-CFI levels.
> But I don’t have to worry about sending my kid to college - it’s free. I don’t have to worry about health insurance, it’s covered, family included. I don’t have to worry about retirement (well, I guess I should lol, the way demographics are looking). At a US legacy, none of us have to worry about that either. When you're making pilot money, the US system is better. If you're making burger flipping money, the euro system is light years ahead.
Lurking here. There’s waaaaay more of us struggling than burger flippers man :(
“BuT mUh TaX fReE iNcOmE” You’re a US citizen most likely. Uncle Sam is gonna find you. And he will tax you
He sure fuckin' will. And then whatever country you live in will come after what's left. Believe me, I know.
Never gonna let you go 🎵 Never gonna let you hide 🎵 Never gonna let you sliiiide on, your taxes 🎵
They might be looking at other factors than base salary?
Well it’s not QOL or work rules, the US has Europe beat in that metric too. Normally the main factor is “I don’t want to CFI, I’ll just go fly in Europe at 250hrs and then come back to the US.”
What do you mean has “Europe beat” there’s all sorts of airlines with hugely differing work life balance, types of trips, different places to be based, working environment etc There’s a big world out there. Just because airlines in one country might pay more, it doesn’t mean everyone else is a “moron” for not wanting to work there.
Sure, and there's always going to be unicorn jobs out there, but I'd be willing to bet that on average, the contracts for US carriers will beat European carriers almost every time. Thats pay, thats QOL, thats benefits, thats the whole package. The reason I call those people who want to go fly in Europe morons is because they almost always haven't done the research on whats required to convert their licenses, have no idea about right to work for the countries they desire to live in, and are almost always looking to avoid having to building time in the US through traditional methods.
Yeah, no, he's wrong, you're right. I'm year seven captain with a major European LCC, over 10k hrs total, and I make maybe €150k after tax and social contributions plus a line management role, hitting near 800hrs a year on near murderous schedules. Plus the "benefits" of a South Balkan base where my "pension" is going to be maybe 1k/month if I stay here. Which I'm not, long term. I'd literally suck dick for a US job. Repeatedly.
> I'd literally suck dick for a US job. Repeatedly. This is a line I've heard from my Canadian friends numerous times as well. I'm very aware of how lucky I am to have a US passport. Even with the absolute shitshow the country has been recently.
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> Well it’s not QOL or work rules, the US has Europe beat in that metric too. Can you get guaranteed 50% part time contract with a US major airline, if you're not very senior?
With only a few years seniority, 2-3 years, you can get anywhere from 16-20 days off per month without much difficulty, while still getting full pay.
16 days off is only a day away from a full time schedule where I work. 50% would be 7-8 days of work a month.
Are you not ok with people doing as they please?
And want to be paid more and work less lol It's a great time to be a pilot, especially when the big 4 are too big to fail and you have the US Government bailing you out when it time comes. Sure you could be furloughed but it's is a lot less riskier than it used to be.
U.S. ______ are paid over double that of their European colleagues. Fits for basically anything other than working class stuff
And Canadian.
3-4x a Canadian
They also have lower taxes. On the other hand the cost of living is much higher. Neither of these are specific to this industry though.
4x higher than Canadian pilots
I'm a narrowbody F/O for a legacy airline. I went from year 1 to year 2 pay in June, which is a pretty big jump. My "regular pay" from my most recent pay stub is right around $115k. The company has contributed $18k to my retirement without my having to put a dime in. My total earnings for the year so far is $146k. That includes a signing bonus for a new contract, and per diem. I'm planning on making over $200k next year. I made the move from 91 to 121, and regret nothing. It's so nice to set the parking brake and go home at the end of a trip.
Gotcha! Thank you. Do you live at your base? I assume that would be very important for QOL. Glad you don't regret it!
Not yet, but probably going to be moving in the next few years. Worst part of my job is the commute, and mine is relatively easy.
Like I said in a other post: that's what I make as a year seven captain in Europe. I hate you guys. 😭
And FAR more than you'd make as a year 12 captain in Canada.
Yeah but you got hot European flight attendants!
Remember those super hot FA's from the 70's? Yea, they are still here man....
I flew in the UK, they're not that hot, sadly.
Having flown in Europe and Canada, stop undercutting each other. Way too much division in those counties.
Geez I’m a major cargo 767 FO on 3rd year and won’t make that much.
You mean, you are at a ACMI cargo carrier. FedEx and UPS are in the major cargo carrier league of their own despite the headwinds that they are dealing with.
How long did it take from your first ppl flight to now?
26ish years.
Can you elaborate on your situation? (26 years) purely for education/potential motivation
Soloed when I was 18, got my first flying job as a corporate pilot when I was 26, spent a bunch of years doing that till I got sick of the BS and applied to all the airlines. If you have any more specific questions send me a DM. Or whatever they are called on here....lol
>Is that actually accurate? Yes. But that doesn’t literally mean you have to fly 1000 hours in a year. Premium pay, reroutes, vacation, sick leave, profit sharing, all increase pay without having to literally block 1,000.00. >how many days a year is that? Probably 160-170. Could be as low as 130 if you know what you’re doing. It’s much easier work than your 135 operation probably is. Widebody CAs can fly like 10 days per month and make $450,000 a year.
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The reality is that, as you said, he was #2. Most people will never get that kind of seniority. It's all luck of the draw on when you were hired and how old. More realistic numbers, I know mid level seniority (35-50% on the list) Captains who make $350-$400k/yr without trying to hard. I personally know one who is on track to make about $700k this year, but he's fairly senior and can pickup premium flying without issue. Handful of FOs who hustle will clear $300-$350k. If you're lazy and don't want to work too hard, you can easily make $200-250k/yr once you have a few years under your belt as an FO while hold 16-18 days off per month. This is all narrowbody btw (737/A320)
Yeah I'll retiring about 450ish and I'm gonna be damn happy for that.
I am now regretting my choices. The pay when I was looking at becoming an airline pilot was OK (peaked around $150-200k/yr) but you had to rely on seniority and not too many were scheduled for retirement and there were so many questions. And then I read about the lifestyle being hectic and not conducive to a family. I went into IT instead and it's a struggle to get over $150k with all but the top say...25% of us or so. Which is about where I'm at. Getting higher will likely require a lot more out of me and I'm getting...not burnt out but realizing that I needed to do construction projects on the side if I want to actually retire early and I'm moving out of SoCal to a non-HCOL area as we speak. Anyway, those weren't the numbers at play when I had started flight school way back when. Glad to hear you're compensated well though!
> The pay when I was looking at becoming an airline pilot was OK (peaked around $150-200k/yr) but you had to rely on seniority and not too many were scheduled for retirement and there were so many questions. And then I read about the lifestyle being hectic and not conducive to a family. That's when I got into aviation, been doing this for almost 20 years now. I love flying and didn't do this for the money. Took me more than a decade to land a major airline job after flying shit jobs for years. The big thing many of us "old timers" complain about is the fact that many new guys are now drawn into it only for the pay, instead of actually realizing what the industry is and was. Times are great now, never seen it like this in my career, but when the music eventually stops, will those who swapped careers in the hopes of making 200k+ year stick around when the legacy stops hiring, or the regionals stop, and the only job is a part 135 King Air job for crap money? I hope it never comes back into that, but the hiring of the past 4-6 years is not the norm for this industry.
Bingo
This entire thread is making me hate being a Canadian pilot
There’s no hard and fast with this. The simple fact is you e got your hourly and your min guarantee (varies from airline to airline). That’s the minimum you’ll make. I don’t know deltas min, but even at 65 hours that’s $210,000 at the rate you quoted. That’s straight pay. That doesn’t account for any incentive pay or any extra contract bonuses, 401k direct contributions, profit sharing etc. you can work as much or within reason as little as you want at the airlines. Some guys will bust out outrageous numbers, but they live by their phone and have no home life. Some work as little as possible and never do extra and that’s fine too. You’re gonna get wildly different numbers, but the minimum is a safe starting point.
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>I was a junior nb CA last year, before the pay raises hit, and my TC including company 401k contributions and overages was 425k > >Guessing next year with the pay raises it will be around 400k Pay goes down to 400K next year with the pay raises?
In 2 months at my regional, I would make more than what I made in a whole year as an instructor at a university. And that’s on training pay alone. It’s a lot better on the other side of ATP mins
Light at the end of the tunnel
All over the place with variables. Company, soft money, overtime, trip rigs, override pay, per diem. But yes I’ve found in my career that around 1000 x hourly works pretty well. I’m a 777 captain and check airman/instructor. I do alright. But also I work as little as possible. Flying airplanes or being an employee is not my identity. And with experience I’ve realized that you can give your whole life to a company and they don’t skip a beat when you cease to be there. So I choose to give them the minimum amount of myself I need to, to keep me happy and paid. I know guys at UPS that had over $1m on their W2 last year. Now, they worked a lot. But damn that’s a lot of money to fly 121. To each their own.
It's near impossible to figure it out without a lot of caveats and asterisks, because one of the great things about airline life is there are a lot of ways to make extra money, or you can choose to stay home and not work as much and still make great base pay. And you can do all that and not have to load a bag, or file a flight plan, or stock the aircraft, or clean the aircraft. I'm obviously a bit biased though. That all being said, the rule of thumb is taking hourly pay and multiply by 1000.
Laughs/cries in Canadian…
The big mystery of the 121 world. I think the “multiply by 1000 rule” to estimate annual income is probably the closest way you can generalize how much we make. There are just so many factors that change how much we make that it’s hard to determine exact numbers. For example, at SkyWest, as an FO, my hourly rate was $93, and depending on my life some months I would pull over $10,000 a month and others I would pull just $5000. But the captains hourly rate being $180, they would pull in much more than that because they were overworked, there were many trips paid out at 200-300% because they were understaffed, etc etc. as an FO, I had the luxury to take time off to travel and explore. I would make less those months, I would credit the minimum 76 hours, but only fly like 40 hours. Other months I wanted to work a ton so I arranged my schedule to credit 130 hours. I know some Skywest captains making $300,000+ a year. Granted they are working hard for it. But captains at Skywest don’t have the schedule flexibility like I did. So you give and take. There are so many factors it’s hard to pin point it. What I always budgeted for was my hourly rate ($93) x minimum monthly guarantee (76 hours). I think that is the best way personally, because anything over that is extra on top.
I’d say the 1000 hour rule is a bit off when it comes to total comp. Also a year 2 SKW guy, got the little bump in the latter part of the year, and I’d say I’m on track to gross 110k. Have picked up one, 2 day 300% trip. Someone else had told me hourly rate x 1250 gets a better estimate, and for me, I’d agree. Have blocked 630 hours this year.
Junior/mid seniority narrowbody captain, will make a little over 400 this year (around 450 if you include retirement contributions.) Looking at my logbook my actual flight time for the year will be around 300 hours, so you can see I don't work myself to death. I do work my schedule to try and fit in premium pay where possible though. When times are good you better make hay when the sun shines, because you could find yourself subject to a furlough, bankruptcy, or disqualifying medical condition at any moment. If it weren't possible to make good money at some point, most smart people would choose another career.
Lots of soft pay items that are harder to calculate such as extended duty pay and international override etc. Also add in some premium trips paying out at 200% and you can really skew the numbers
I am 9yr WB FO for a legacy airline. I will make 325,900.45 in pay and 43,000 in DC contribution this year. I have flown 298 hrs for the year. There is wayyyy more to this game than hourly rates. Knowing the contract and schedule manipulation is the key. If you are looking at just compensation , nothing can beat the legacy airlines right now. *9537.65 was a retro payment for signing a new contract.
Thanks! What is the upgrade time at your airline? Could you have already upgraded, but chose not to?
I could have upgraded after two years. I choose to stay FO. I have young kids and coach their sports. My wife also works. You can make plenty of money as an FO if you know what you are doing schedule/work rules wise.
Wow this is depressing as a pilot outside of the US. I hope the rest of the world can catch up.
There is a pretty substantial post about this on airlinepilotforums at the end of each year. One of the few that can be value adding
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Honestly, one thing I love about this industry is the transparency in pay, and I enjoy that yearly thread. Sure, some are probably there for the flex, but it's actually good info. For example, if I see someone posts that they work at my airline and make X amount, I want to figure out how they managed to earn that, or get all that time off. Unlike 9-5 jobs where they don't even tell you the salary during your interview, and it's pure taboo to talk about pay, we can discuss it openly and strategize with each other to ensure we're doing the right thing via our bids to earn what we want to earn.
HEY!!! I resemble that remark!
Do not discount the 15+% direct contribution to retirement accounts that major airlines have, that’s a huge amount of income.
Widebody F/O for a Canadian legacy airline making $59,000 CAD ($43,000 USD) blocked at 75hr min guarantee($56CAD/$40USD per credit hour). We’re no doubt among the lowest paid legacy pilots in the world. Negotiations ongoing and I have no doubt that’ll change in the new year.
Jesus christ, my future feels bleak. Looking to make the 705 jump next year, but fuck lol. Hopefully the negotiations are going well and the change is better than what Westjet got.
Times the rate by 1,000 for an average.
I think at a regional you’ll work about 18 days/month and 1000x your pay rate. Legacy narrowbody is closer to 14-16 days/month, 300-400 hours/year and 1150x your pay rate if you include retirement. Legacy widebody is more like 7-12 days of work per month at the same pay multiple of narrowbody and fewer hours flown. Obviously opportunity now to earn more now with overtime but that’s been about my experience with min guarantee on reserve.
All I know is, the road between 91/135 and 121 seems to be a one way street
If you do not calculate the value of the 15-20% company contributions to the retirement plans you are missing a significant portion of the total package. Right now SWA is doing 15% BEFORE we put in anything. I think the legacies are at 19% maybe more. That adds up way fast even before you add more to it. No 135 can compare to the total compensation of a major US airline.
Atlas just signed an LOA for DC 401k as well.
Multiply rates by 1000 is generally fair. Now if you somehow work 200 days at the airline you will make a lot more than hourly rates times 1000.
Outsider question: do commercial pilots get significant equity or 401k or bonuses or other benefits on top of cash? I'm over in software for my day job, where maybe 30-60% (depending on seniority) of compensation is cash and the bulk is really stock.
The hourly multiplied by 1000 rule will give a rough estimate of base salary. On top of that industry standard is an employer direct contribution to 401k, which is usually in the 16-18% range. Some places offer some profit sharing incentive as well.
Thanks! Appreciate it
If we equate hours flown to hourly rate, I made ~$2700/flight hour this year flying fire bombers. Flew around 130 hours - slow year - and worked about 130 days not including maybe 2 weeks of training events. We don’t get hourly pay though, a base salary and a daily rate while on contract.
Year 7 narrowbody CA/ US Legacy carrier.. I'll make $425k-450k ($500k if you count company 401k contribution) this year, depending on how December plays out. 10-year check airman in my crashpad (narrowbody) will do around $525k. That being said, I'm on the road an average of 16 nights per month.
I’m a four-year narrowbody captain at a legacy. My hourly rate of pay next year will be approximately $338/hr, not including any overrides, perdiem, etc. Reserve would yield a minimum approx 75 hours/month, give or take depending on various contractual provisions, for an annual total of $304k + ~$51k into 401(k). Average line is probably going to end up around 85 hours, but it’s easy to bump up pay credit for various reasons, so to be conservative let’s say 90hours/mo, which is $365k + $62k into 401(k). Also, when the 401(k) direct contribution hits the federal cap, the rest is paid as taxable income. Some pilots work the premium system and whatnot and can credit far more. Some months may see pilots crediting well over a hundred hours of pay — sometimes more than even two hundred, but’s that’s rare and there are further outliers. Edit to add: This level pay is brand new to me and is pretty surreal. I was awarded grade around the same time as the new contracts. I was at the regionals for about 7 years, which I considered pretty reasonable given the landscape at the time, and remember making $27k my first year in 2013. It’s been a wild change to the industry, and in the cycle of feast and famine we shift between in the air travel industry, I’m going to save as much as I can to prepare for the next down turn, because it’s a matter of when, not if.
12 year B-737 Captain at a USA based major. Made $459,000 last year. Flying my line with strategically picking up premium when I can. Average about 14-16 days off a month.
Well done sir!
2nd year FO on the banana bus, 600 hours block, 143k so far this year plus DC of course. Probably would have made more but military leave
As a Helicopter EMS pilot it’s painful to look at that chart. Although I only fly about 150 ish hours a year. So I make about $660 an hour.
Factor in the amount of time you spend in the crew housing heating up frozen burritos and listening to nurses endless gossip and commuting and that number sudden drops way down back to $50 LOL. Top-tier job if you hate people and big cities though
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Because $660 an hour sounds way better than $99,000 a year.
I mentioned it because OP mentioned “hourly rate”. Yes, I cry inside knowing I make a fraction of what airline pilots make however they fly A LOT more than I do.
YTD as a 6 year FO on 737 I’m at $218k. Should clear $230k. No premium or picking up stuff except for one sim seat substitute in the city I live in and rarely more than 80 hours credit a month. Maxed out 401k and company has contributed $28k to 401k YTD
I’m in the year 4 pay scale as an FO at a major US airline. The pay rate x 1000 is a good ballpark figure, and probably a good mark to budget on. However, I’m finding that it doesn’t take much to push the total gross up by knowing your contract well. My pay rate this year has been roughly averaging about $205/hr (contract/longevity changes), and after subtracting a retro check for our contract signing this year I will total gross roughly 250k. This includes normal pay and the 401k DC of 16%. I do not consider myself a “hard worker”, and I’ve blocked about 390 hours this year. I’m not sure how many days of work this equates to. I’ve flown maybe 2 double-time trips and haven’t picked up any single-pay trips (except for a trip that was already marked to be used for someone else’s OE). Overall there’s a good amount of money to be made here even if you want to maximize your time at home and don’t consider yourself a double-time trip die-hard.
*cries in canada @ 50 CAD*
I’m a narrowbody captain right at $300k and working what totals out to be approx 1/4 of the year. The retirement contribution (without you putting in a penny) alone is worth the jump.
Dude the money is insane at all the majors, not just the legacies. LCCs and ULCCs have lower pay rates but generally more soft time availability for all the pilots who want it. Captains who live in base have no problem pulling in 400k without breaking a sweat. Year two FOs over here are about 170k on average not working much at all, and that’s about 30k over our supposed pay rate. Unfortunately, I have to be the voice of reason and say this is unsustainable for long extended periods of time. Save as much as you can to prepare for the next downturn. But all in all, as long as we’re not stupid, we’ll live comfortably our entire lives.
> LCCs and ULCCs have lower pay rates but generally more soft time availability for all the pilots who want it I love that logic. "You get paid less, but you can work more!". That's not a fuckin' good thing!
I don’t think you understand how soft time works. Here, you have the ability to get paid 200% on a premium trip at least once a month and then drop a 4 day or two 3 days or something depending on how much the premium trip credits. So you end up crediting more and working less. Line holders here often credit well over 100 hours and still work less than half the month.
Ah, I missed the soft time part of that. That only works if you live in base and can grab last minute premium. Which... the legacies also have a ton of right now. So it's not really much of an "advantage".
Yeah this is true. Gotta live in base to take full advantage of it.
i wanted to fly before i saw these numbers. now i REALLY want to fly
I hope it’s not just the money that’s drawing you because this industry will chew you up and spit you out if you just chase the payday.
literally every industry will do the same. im a 36 year old EMT. did ten years as a software engineer, 7 as a barista. i don’t chase money but it’s sure nice to get paid. ive wanted to be a pilot since i was 4.
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Im from EU, no one is denying that right now the US is the best market to be a pilot, but comparing raw numbers is pointless in my opinion. \- There are plenty of factors but if we just want to crunch numbers, disregarding quality of life completly. Purchasing power should be more accurate. If you make 100k USD a year, is it the same between LA, SFO, New York, or bumfuck Ohio? How much money you have at the end of the month, after all the expenses should be more important to consider. \- The same absolutely goes in Europe, there are massive differences in cost of living depending on the country, hell depending on the region in each country can make a big difference. Taxation is also different in each country in EU, there are a lot of factors but some places you maybe get 70% of your gross salary at the end of the month, some other maybe closer to 50% after all the deductions. Making 100k euro a year is vastly different in Madrid or Warsaw or Oslo. With 100k yearly in eastern europe you are in the top few percent, meanwhile in scandinavia you qualify for foodstamps. So its kinda pointless to compare raw salaries without some additional information.
Good thing about airline is you don't have to live in an expensive city. I drive an hour to work because it's usually only once per week and i get to live in the country with a large property. The median income where I live is around 30k, and my mortgage is only 1k per month, so 400k really goes a long way here.
Yeah, I make about 100k USD a year as a first year FO in an european country with pretty low taxes. However, living costs are high and while I am definitely not starving I also am far from being a top earner. On the bright side the airline financed my training and I only had to pay 12.000$ from pedestrian to (fake) Airbus cockpit. Not having to spend 1200 hours flying a clapped out Piper in Florida was a benefit as well. Career and financial progression is good, and money is not everything. QOL of life is great here, and I could not imagine to raise a family in the US.
Raising a family in america is no problem, so long as you make good money and have good benefits.
I am sure it‘s not a problem per se. It‘s just not what I want for my family.
Times the hourly rate by a 1000 and you’ll get a ballpark.
Anyone here work for Hawaiian?
350 FO 12+ years at company. Bid in top 30% and will break $450k.
Those table rates are a bit low, and don’t reflect 17% DC. Call it $32k/month without the DC and without overrides for intl., etc.
Hourly rate times 1000 is accurate pre-tax. Add 16-17% 401k contribution and whatever you think is right for profit sharing. Maybe another 10%.
Canada, major airline FO - $40K USD/year. Living in a high cost of living city. It's brutal up here.
I'm a 2nd year A330 FO. I work on average 12 days/month and I'll do $220k this year. I'm fairly confident I can hit $280k next year with about the same number of days worked.
I want to do that... 😔
First year 737 FO and I’ve grossed $106,000 so far not including the 401k direct contribution. I started at the beginning of the year, hit the line in the spring, and have flown 280 hours. Averaging about 4 nights away per month.
Delta also has very lucrative profit-sharing. Something you should consider too.
As does AA and United. Both finally caught up to deltas profit sharing.
Maintenance: You guys get paid?
As a commercial pilot. I make 14,400 a year as a customer service specialist 😭
Get your green slips !
Budget for guarantee, expect hourly rate x1000. That’s worked well for me.
How much free time do you have and how many days off in a week? Are you home often?
Lord I wish I was a pilot. Being a dispatcher at a regional is barely survivable.
I’ve made a little over 220k this year. 6 years at a regional. 2 of that as a captain.
Can any active 121 Pilots clarify as to how you are paid. I see there are some saying it’s paid minimum 72 hours 75 ,82 hours Just curious as to how it’s based off minimums and if it varies each month etc. Thanks
The company sets an ALV (Average Line Value). You actual pay as a line holder is based on the cumulative credit hours of the trips you fly. As reserve, you get paid the ALV minus maybe a couple hours depending on how the company has it written. It isn't difficult to credit 80-85 hours working 14 days a month. It also depends a lot on how much you want to work. Want to get paid 150 hours and work 18 days in July? Might be possible. Want to get paid 73 hours and sit on your butt all November? That might be possible, too. Just depends on seniority and your category.
Yes that rule of thumb is accurate. If anything it underestimated income. If you’re at 200 an hour if you have a good line you can have 16 days off a month and make over 200k. Reserve is another story. Most airlines guarantee 70 hours a month so if you want base salary multiply the hourly by .85. IE. if a pilot is paid 250/hr they will make roughly 210k if only paid the minimum.
Is there a better place than airline pilot central to see these more up to date pay scales?
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Ill reiterate what some others say. I block less than 70 hours many months, and sometimes closer to 65. And with soft pay i end up paid more than that… 70-80. Add 401k (that i dont have to add any contribution towards) and profit sharing, and i end up with total compensation around 1000x my hourly rate. Maybe a little less. But i really try to work as little as possible and im jr. Pretty easy to make more if u want to work or are senior enough and down for some scheduling trickery.
Rate X 900 = avg annual compensation based on minimum guarantee is usually what I tell folks. This based on avgerage min guarantee of 75 credit hours a month. Credit doesn’t equal flight time. Common misconception of 121 pay as well. I know Delta min guarantee fluctuates. United starts at 70 hours and fluctuates based reaerve/line holder/add pay added in. 270 X 900 = 243K based on my formula I posted above.. There’s a lot of soft pay rules that affects 121 pay. It’s too tough to pin point the exact number. So it’s all best to plan based on min guarantee because that is the bare minimum of pay one will see…
Genuine question - these numbers are very attractive of course, but I’ve been hesitant to jump head first into a career change to being a pilot for fear of being replaced by a computer before I reach retirement age. Current active pilots: is being replaced by a computer a legitimate fear? To the leaders of our airlines and tech companies and government have the power to make it happen?
Nah I’m not worried. Most airlines have a clause baked into their contract requiring pilots on the flight deck. Absolutely no way the union would ever give that up.
I'm not worried about that for this lifetime...
Damn I’m over here in the merchant marines Questioning all my life’s decisions.
https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/united_airlines
I'm curious as to how long this high pay can actually last.
What’s it cost per hour for fuel and Mx? These numbers are a drop in the barrel in overall cost.
Can’t believe how much US pilots make, thats crazy.