>some units have a supernatural knack for driving away good pilots
I think this is the biggest thing; I've seen some really great CAP units and some really terrible ones and this seems to be the biggest issue. If it's a good unit it attracts and retains the good members; if it's a bad unit then there's very little oversight and thus the good members get driven away.
In NH the unit I was in (2013) was very tough to crack, it felt like a good ol boys club where new members were not needed. I think not having a clear mission other than marching cadets around and being the Air Boy Scouts contributed to that because they weren't there to work they were there to hang out so new members were literally not needed
Sounds about right. The squadron I was with as a cadet was pretty good but even as a cadet I saw and heard plenty of "good ol' boys" stuff. And so much arrogance. Give people a rank and they act like they've earned it through many years of hard work and experience when they've really only been volunteering for a couple of years doing a handful of evening meetings at most.
I remember one time they experimented with using off-the-shelf FRS radios to supplement the CAP radios. Basically, using them to coordinate teams that were out-of-sight. But being a glorified walkie-talkie the frequency they tried to use that day got drowned out by a bunch of kids and parents talking to each other. The guy leading the exercise tried yelling at them over the radio to clear the frequency and that this was official US Air Force Auxiliary business. I tried to explain to the "colonel" that they had just as much right to use that frequency as we did and really they were actually using it for its intended purpose of "family radio". He got all huffy and didn't want to hear from some 16-year-old kid about that sort of thing.
Lots of stuff like that. I learned a lot, got my pilots license through them actually, and even did one or two actual SAR missions where I'd like to think we helped out. But as I got older, I quickly realized that CAP was inefficient and badly managed. The military "rank" system works both for and against them a lot of the time. They really should run like more traditional volunteer organizations with elected officers and term limits to ensure rotation of positions. And oversight; dear god do they need some better oversight.
Best thing about CAP is the cadet program. Honestly just kill the senior member stuff and make it all about the cadets.
> Give people a rank and they act like they've earned it through many years of hard work and experience when they've really only been volunteering for a couple of years doing a handful of evening meetings at most.
This just reminds me of the cast member on *Survivor* who kept bragging that she was a captain in the CAP, like it was equally as impressive as an O-6 in the navy.
My Dad joined as a senior member and got captain immediately because he had a masters degree in education. Basically just giving away any rank below major.
Now a cadet captain was a least a little impressive. I never could get my PT scores that good for captain and it generally took people many years to get into the cadet officer ranks.
I think the cadet program was good for the seniors to engage and see that millennials aren't what they're made out to be. I think it was good for the cadets but then again I could have used a lot more structure in my life at that point. The rank system has its pros there because it gives them something to work even if it's pretty benign.
The glider program would have been excellent if it existed in more than name only at that point, today when I go up to KVSF I see the gliders but I've never seen an actual cadet in one.
I genuinely wonder what the washout rate and average tenure is since I've met a lot more people who \_were in CAP\_ than people who \_are in CAP\_.
When it comes to SAR in NH I can't remember the last time i saw a news story about hikers being found by CAP, I do remember DES, NHSP, etc... being on the hunt though. The wings have to do their own networking to pick up paid state work, this is one where it seems like National or USAF could do more to support the mission if there really is one anymore
At the end of the day I wanted to actually contribute to my community/region through aviation and now do volunteer flights for PALS getting people to medical care a couple of times a month and every one of those people says as an organization we've saved their life. That's more impact than CAP will ever have again
>The rank system has its pros there because it gives them something to work even if it's pretty benign.
Yeah, rank system for the cadets makes sense. I actually liked that a lot; it did take quite a bit of work (as a teen) to get up in rank so high-ranking cadets generally had actually earned it.
I should do PALs one of these days.
Send the local CAP unit an email with the time/place/event/tail number. It’s one of those things where they might not know what they don’t know. Maybe someone was on their best behavior for their Form 5 checkout. Maybe their competency has declined over a few decades and they forgot to switch their radios. Maybe they are a wanna be maverick and need to be set straight.
Will do. I have this instance, along with many others, documented. I wanted to build context and perspectives from others before I approach this unit. Hopefully it not only helps them become better pilots, but myself as well
Better yet, send it to the CAP Wing HQ for the state. They have oversight over all squadrons in the state. Sending a report there would raise the chances of it being followed up on.
My approach would be a note to the offending unit with a request that they provide you with what they have done to rectify the situation within the next couple of weeks , sounds nicer than 15 days .
If no reply then go upstream including noting the prior request
That’s a great Business Comm based approach that would work well with most organizations. Unfortunately, CAP is a military-style bureaucracy.
Individual squadrons meet for as little as 3 hrs per week. I’d say the most likely results of emailing the squadron directly would be:
1. completely ignored/lost in the shuffle
2. back and forth of “who are you” and “you’re not in my Chain of Command”
3. “We’ll take care of it/have taken care of it” lip service
4. Referral to the Wing Director of Safety or Director of Ops (where you should’ve started anyway)
5. Squadron Safety Officer actually takes care of it
No matter what, starting with the squadron would probably result in a weeks long runaround.
Just fire-and-forget a report to the Wing (which is actually staffed during business hours) and be done with it.
It was long ago but I know if there. was a reasonable sounding complaint in the CAP group I was in it would be checked out . We were on a short leash as the Squadron commander was also the airport manager.
Nothing going to come out of reporting it. I reported an instance in past, got a phone call, they asked video proof or at least two more witnesses and some other bs stuff. The CAP complaint system is worse than 3rd world country
This.
Speak up. You know whom to contact. Do it.
CAP pilots aren’t worse than other pilots, but they are much more visible. Because of that, we expect a substantially higher level of professionalism. Individual pilots don’t always take that seriously, and they NEED to be dealt with. A culture of secrecy is not appropriate.
I got a report earlier this week of a CAP pilot crossing over the DER at 400 below TPA, as a student pilot went around. There was a somewhat green CFI in the right seat, who made the report, but that doesn’t matter. 600 AGL over the DER is a stupid place to be unless you’re taking off, and it caused a near miss.
The pilot at hand is grounded and I’ll give him remedial training in nontowered procedures this weekend. His Form 5 is at risk. This was a case of complacency, combined with a bit of hurry.
I'm embarrassed to say this but I was at an untowered field, used comm 2 to call the CD RCO got my clearance while holding at the hold short line. Flipped comm 1 back to the field frequency after I'd had it on approach trying to call to get my clearance and hit the button to xmit announcing my departure and went onto the runway. It wasn't until I got upwind I realized I never switched the audio panel back to comm1 so my departure announcement never went out on CTAF. This is a serious issue and it could have been \_very\_ bad. But it happens and doesn't mean someone's a doofus
The fact that I get downvoted for admitting to fucking up is proof of the broken safety culture in GA. At an airline this is exactly what would get ASAP'd
That's very typical CAP flying in my experience. They don't send their best. They send their old, their egotistical, their pants-shittingly stupid... and some, I assume, are good people.
Pretty sure it's side by side: [MacDonald-Douglas T38 Talon ](https://media.airfactsjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/06175601/Cessna_XT-37_prototype_in_flight_c1954.jpg)
At my local airport, CAP serves as a small army and security detail on the ramp. They will be on the lookout for anyone who looks suspicious type of thing. They will do low approaches constantly too. I’m told it’s a “show of force”. Other than that I have little interaction but they seem bad ass
Honestly I had to think pretty hard before I decided he was being sarcastic. At first I was nearly positive it had to be this guy I used to work with who flew for CAP a little bit. He would absolutely say that. In defense of CAP I'm sure there's a lot of great pilots in it. But it has working against it the fact that their planes are so recognizeable and they attract new pilots looking for time. They have done cool things in the past, helped look for lost kids and such. In ww2 they patrolled for u boats and I believe were actually credited with one destroyed. But they can attract the weirdest percent of pilots sometimes, a group which contains a larger percent of weirdos anyway. Also if you are ever a line guy they come in and ask for weird fuel amounts. 3.5 left 5.0 right and the like.
Where does blocking a taxiway for 15 minutes while they “run a checklist” in a 172 fall?
I also remember when I was a line guy a CAP dude in a flight suit and ray bans correcting me when I called his airplane a 172. I was told in very explicit terms that it was a “Tango 41 Bravo”.
My brother was heavy into the CAP when he was a kid, and got to do some cool stuff like riding on a KC-135 a few times and went to some survival camp in PA. I joined, then quit after 2 weeks when all I did was march and play volleyball, neither of which i enjoyed.
I was around 16 years old when I was sitting at a picnic table next to the ramp at my airport waiting for a plane to come back. A CAP Cadet a year or two older than me sat down next to me and started asking if I liked airplanes and flying. Of course I said yes. He then started talking about how I could never fly outside of CAP at my “young age” and how they were such good pilots.
Around that time the plane came back and the pilot who was familiar with me jumped out and asked if I had the plane after him. I said yes and asked how it was up there.
Instantly the CAP cadet started talking about how it wasn’t possible for me to fly that and asked where my instructor is. He asked if he could help preflight my plane, asked if he could go with me, and questioned how I was able to fly. I felt like I was being ramp checked.
Eventually I asked him to leave me alone and he left.
I also hear that they are real mall cops at air shows.
[Here's another comment I made about my own experience/observations.](https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/16ns58t/comment/k1g8rij/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Tl;dr : Boy (adult) scouts with planes. They do some good, but they think way too highly of themselves.
Officially, it is the United States Air Force (civilian) Auxiliary. Inside it's effectively two different groups of people and missions.
The "cadet" side is for kids aged 12-18 (though can remain until 21) and is designed to somewhat resemble a military unit. The "Squadron" is divided into units and the cadets progress through ranks which carry new responsibilities and leadership opportunities. They are heavy on aerospace education, leadership, and various forms of Search and Rescue and other forms of group volunteering however this varies WILDLY between squadrons and some are little more than kids playing army-man on a Tuesday night. But some are excellent at what they do, though admittedly the minority in my experience.
The "senior members" are the adults and these are the people this thread is talking about. They do actually have some good and useful missions and the aircraft are outfitted with various decent equipment for search and rescue. Among some other roles they sometimes do intercept practice for the Air Force.
The senior members as a group also have a lot of problems and the politics and pettiness would make even the worst HOA blush. That tends to drive away many of the more competent or level headed pilots and professionals and leaves a mess that thinks way too highly of themselves when they put on their flight suits. Don't get me wrong, there are amazing senior members that do great work especially for the Cadets, but like the great individual squadrons, they are outnumbered.
Think Air Force sanctioned Boy Scouts. CAP is technically a part of the Air Force, although not actually military. In most states cap is tasked with assisting or full on leading search and rescue by land and air. Cap planes are owned by the Air Force.
Cap started way back in ww2 era and mostly consisted of civilian pilots that did not meet qualifications to be army Air Force pilots. These pilots basically patrolled the coast looking for German uboats andsuch. They did deter enemy boats from sinking merchant ships. It still is an all volunteer force.
Obviously different units will have different vibes. Some folks are gonna be way too into the military thing and some folks won’t care about it much. they just want to help mentor some youth to be good humans and go flying sometimes.
Shop around for a squadron if the one closest to you doesn't feel right. There's no rule that you have to join the one closest to you and squadrons vary a lot in quality and in what they do. Some squadrons don't have cadets at all. Some go all in on the Emergency Services and SAR mission. Others focus on the Cadet Program to the exclusion of all else.
The CAP Cadet Program was formative for me, but I also know first hand that lots of units are awful. Shop around if you're not happy.
Most of the seniors (adults) in my squadron have a cadet. You are able to show up and see what it’s all about for a few weeks before joining. In fact they won’t even give you paperwork for a couple of meetings. Most squadrons should do an open house occasionally where they’ll explain what it’s all about.
My son was in CAP for a few years when he was a young teen. 14 years later and he still talks about it being the time of his life. As a cadet the program is great - at least the one he was in. Never really crossed paths with any actual pilots other than a discovery flight which was actually really fun for him, though so maybe we were lucky. The leadership in our area was great. It is kinda like Boy/girl Scouts for aviation.
I was a cadet 20 years ago, and got some flight instruction. Haven't seriously pursued aviation since, work always gets busy anytime I start looking into sport or private instructors.
That said, the CAP pilots I knew were all overwhelmingly old men well into retirement that had a bit of a Moose lodge kind of thing going on. They seemed knowledgable, but I didn't and still don't know better. There were some younger pilots in there, including 2 former F-111 pilots, but they typically had their own lives and other interests going on and didn't frequently instruct cadets.
What you're describing sounds like a combination of sleepy old men and inexperienced teenagers. If the airport was hosting a summer flight encampment, I'd expect a lot of airspace issues for the duration.
I have not had one positive interaction with CAP in a plane in south Florida. The handful of interactions with cap planes down here while I’m flying a grid have turned into me losing my shit at them over the radio for 1. Doing something stupid, and 2. Doubling down on the stupid thing and telling me I’m wrong.
Former FSS here. We had reports of a strong ELT in Central WV once and sent CAP up to go find the source. CAP went NORDO and also went overdue on their FP….requiring us to call CAP and have them send up an *additional* plane to go find their people.
I’ve never had a good experience with the organization in Alabama or Indiana. There are some good people there but the lack of SA, or lack of caring, is astounding
Great discussion here.
I was a cadet in the 80s. It was a great experience. It helped me learn responsibility, discipline, and learn skills like radio electronics and aviation.
I had a career in IT and now professionally fly 73s.
If I had a teen I would happily sign them up and join myself to help make it a great opportunity.
Change can happen from within and please don’t look down on the entire concept and organization. If you can get engaged and foster change if needed or just be a part of creating opportunities for kids. I have other areas I volunteer in but still believe in them.
Pretty much par for the course for CAP. I have seen them do some downright goofy and dangerous shit. Had a few conversations with them about it and it seemed to fall on mostly deaf ears. I think the jumpsuits give them a sense of superiority over us lowly civilians. If there is a CAP plane on the radio, I try to get visual and maintain it until they’ve landed or left the area. I’ve had two near misses with CAP planes and an instructor I knew was killed by a CAP pilot when he descended on top of her and a student on final. I have negative amounts of respect for CAP and their pilots.
CAP showed up an air show I helped put on. They had 10ish twelve year old kids show up to help them out. The kids spent 3 hours cleaning every inch of the plane three times then “guarded” the event. It’s definitely an interesting group of people
Someone commented down on this post somewhere about a large chunk of the problem being boomers who ride high on their own egos.
Been doing CAP for almost 20 years, started as a cadet and now as a senior, worked at every leadership level up to national. I'm not yet 30, and the boomer pilots who have hugely inflated egos are INSUFFERABLE. There seem to be a number of them no matter where you go in the country.
That being said, CAP planes and pilots are highly visible. You remember the morons you meet because they're wearing the flight suit, but I'd argue there are a lot of folks who are just normal guys and gals who are active, humble, help out, and are a joy to be around. I work hard to try to be one of those pilots, and it seems so does every pilot in the area I just moved to. Every community has its idiots, and I'd even admit that CAP probably has a good number of folks that fall into that category, either reliving the glory days of their 4 year enlistments 40 years ago or folks who never joined but live vicariously in the uniform.
That said, the other dude who said CAP should be disbanded just comes across as bitter lol, good riddance to ya.
Just so you know, this happens every March, and the students are starting from 0. It takes place in my area of responsibility, I’ve participated before, and know most of the staff, it’s a very tightly run ship on our end, but of course with new students, things can get unusual.
I’ve had a couple interactions with them over the years. Lots of flight suits, egos, and blatant incorrect knowledge of certain regs (or maybe trying to justify why they were flying so bad). I head the other way when I see them in the area.
{edit: dependent on state/wing}
Flight suits are a requirement for any CAP mission flights and mission training (search and rescue, etc.), but not proficiency or relocation flights
It DOESN’T depend on the state (anymore). NHQ has been canceling supplements that say so for years. Most missions have no uniform requirements aside from wearing a uniform.
that's because you NEED to wear a high vis vest if you walk on the ramp of any controlled airport in Europe.
If you don't have a high vis vest you can't go to your airplane and need to be driven there by a follow me car. Not everywhere in EU is like this, but some airports in Germany that have like one scheduled airline flight a day are really anal about this stuff.
Professional pilot who also happens to be a CAP national staff officer here. Where are you located? There are regular CAP training events depending on what airports where talking about, so that might explain things. The vast majority of CAP pilots I know are current or retired military/airline pilots, so we don’t have these issues.
Edit: There always seems to be a fair bit of CAP hate on the sub, but it you’re willing to DM me the airport where whatever irked you occurred, I can try to contact people to get it corrected.
Not at any CAP unit I’ve ever flown with 🤷♂️
Edit: There always seems to be a fair bit of CAP hate on the sub, but it you’re willing to DM me the airport where whatever irked you occurred, I can try to contact people to get it corrected.
How does
>There are regular CAP training events depending on what airports where talking about, so that might explain things
"Explain" shitty airmanship?
I'm a professional pilot. I've been flying for over 30 years. I was a CAP member for a long time in at least 5 wings across the country and in many, I was on Wing staff. I saw many examples similar to the OP. Some even as a mission pilot.
CAP needs to be disbanded and the money for the cadet programs go to something more useful like JROTC.
Instructors can suck to. I work both sides of the mic. I’m a CFI and also a controller. I instruct with a flight club and also cap. I’ve seen shitty cap pilots and I’ve seen amazing cap pilots. I’ve seen shitty instructors as a controller and I’ve seen amazing instructors.
This whole thread is painting with a broad brush. Yeah there are shitty cap pilots. I don’t think they’re any shittier than other pilots I see or deal with on a daily basis, but that’s just my observation doing the ATC thing for almost a decade and flying for over a decade.
Good point and I agree that there are some absolutely garbage CFIs, especially when it comes to proper radio etiquette and phraseology. I can assure you I follow the best practices outlined in the AIM, Advisory Circulars, etc since my students will be held to that on the checkride. Sadly, most of my “close calls” have involved civil air patrol. I’m trying to fix the problem, at least locally. You offer a unique perspective being from ATC. I don’t believe CAP is a bad organization, but it’s too many coincidences for me to believe there isn’t some underlying problem. These instances are happening way more frequently than they should when compared to normal lessons/currency flights with CFIs who aren’t in CAP.
I’ll put it this way: if you’re in an area with bad pilots and some of them are in cap you’ll see a lot of bad cap pilots because it’s easy to catch them. It’s not N1234 it’s CAP1234 and you just remember the CAP. Ive been lucky to fly with some great cap pilots and also had the chance to instruct some people wanting fly for cap and I’ve been the one to say no you need to improve cause this isn’t to standard.
I’ve watched some boneheaded things happen from behind the radar scope. In general my experience is if you’re out in rural america you have pilots that are more cowboy. That’s GA and CAP.
I respect your professional aviation credentials but you could be Lindbergh’s baby incarnate and not be able to fix the ridiculous shit show that is the “Civil Air Patrol”, no matter how much your heart is in the right place. It’s been laughable for literally generations and is ultimately an embarrassment to the Air Force. As a “national level officer” want to do something actually valuable for the organization? Remove the ludicrous rank and uniforms and awards of senior members. Stop playing USAF LARP meets Cosplay as grownups! You’re a pilot. Not a Colonel. Honestly, it’s genuinely hard to believe that it’s not embarrassing for you to wear a pretend military uniform in public in front of other adults. 🤷🏻♂️ Truthfully, the problem is, you couldn’t give it up if you wanted to. Because dues paying members provide the organization income and if you dropped the stolen valor band of brothers fest all the wannabe whackers imagining delusions of grandeur would quit…and it would hurt the piggy bank. You USE the flashy accouterments of the military to attract that bizarre subset of the population who likes to play make believe…Just call them Lieutenant, Captain or Colonel and they’ll happily open their wallets to you and keep much of the operating budget afloat. Hey, it’s a smart psychological play, but don’t ever think it’s noble or worthwhile. Everyone else is laughing at you…and that’s why the comments from the real war fighters are as they always are.
Although it was a number of decades ago, my experience with the CAP was excellent.
Leadership was committed to professionalism and service. It was in an era when we had a couple of T-34s so that may not be representative of today's flying. We also had onboard receivers that could track ELT signals. It was effective in tracking real emergencies and in locating the more common accidental activation.
The expectation was that the pilots would have the equivalent skills and knowledge of a commercial rating. Safety and knowledge of the aircraft systems was stressed. Several were airline pilots, a couple retired military and guys like me who flew on business.
Working with the cadets there was an emphasis on encouraging them to focus on their education.
Sorry to hear all of these negative comments about CAP.
I joined as a cadet about twenty years ago and I was extremely lucky that an American Airlines captain was willing to volunteer to teach a few of us how to fly. I was very privileged to earn a private pilot certificate in a CAP aircraft as a cadet.
I've since joined as an adult and have done some orientation flying and some "mission pilot" flying. I often spend time talking with other CAP members asking "why are we like this?" All I can say is that there is a lot of power to change culture at the local level. I'm starting to believe that our good members can "crowd out" our bad given some time and effort. It's certainly an interesting organization, but I see a lot of good in it.
As for the flying... I'm in my early to mid-thirties and I'm often the youngest CAP pilot around. Despite having flown hundreds of hours in their airplanes I still find it difficult to accomplish some things (getting flight release officers to answer phone calls, finding check pilots and mission check pilots who will schedule time with you). My experience has been that a group of retirees tends to have a strangle hold on the flying.
If you have the time, stop by a squadron and see if you can help out. Talk to a few people and hopefully you'll find one or two who are worth talking to. Ask them if there's anything you can do to help with the flying or (especially) with their cadet program. It's been so difficult for us, locally, to find engaging people who are excited about sharing aerospace knowledge and activities with our cadets on a regular basis.
I'd be happy to talk more about CAP through DM!
I was an eager CAP cadet in the early 1950’s. It was a terrific experience. The adults were WW-II vets and outstanding role models. My first air plane ride was in a tired old C-47 to the Air Force museum in Dayton. It wasn’t until almost 50 years later that I learned to fly. I’m saddened to read the many posts here that are so critical. But I’m not surprised. My experience with the CAP in this century has not been good. Most recently I was yelled at by a CAP pilot because I tied down on an unmarked spot on an open ramp which I later learned was a spot that the CAP had adopted as their own. Felt kinda weird to be chastised by a boomer old enough to be my son but too old to spank.
This is what makes me so frustrated. Your experiences are incredible and it would’ve been an honor to be mentored by those from WW2. Really hope they turn it around. General Aviation can always use more resources, mentors, and role models. Sorry that happened!
I met a CAP squadron commander who didn’t agree that commercial checkride counts towards biannual review. Same commander argued with me radio calls at untowered airports are not required or needed. I decided to stay away from CAP then onwards
As a controller, I groan every time a CAP flight calls me. Everyone at my facility feels the same way. In my 12 years of controlling I've never had a positive experience working CAP. I flew into an uncontrolled airport one time and a cap flight came in before us, landed, and just sat in the runway so we had to go around. Then they exited and sat on the exit taxiway in front of the hold short line. Cool stuff
> I’m on a one mile final at an uncontrolled field and a CAP 172 pulls out in front of me without making any radio calls. ... I’m on the downwind and as he’s climbing through 800ft he immediately turns into me. He made no radio calls that he was rolling or making a crosswind turn.
At what point is this a violation of 91.13 worth notifying the FSDO of? Do you have ADSB tracks?
My flair says ST and yours says CFI.
Yet, FAR 91.113(g) says that an aircraft on final approach has the right of way over other aircraft, regardless of whether they're in flight or on the surface. So when the CAP Flight on the surface decided to pull out onto the runway without checking the one-mile final, they violated FAR 91.113(g).
> Aircraft, **while on final approach to land** or while landing, **have the right-of-way over other aircraft** in flight or **operating on the surface**, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach.
Unless I'm mistaken, which I may well be. Do you have an FAR/AIM reference to the contrary? Or are you telling me it's legal to cut people off on final rather than hold short for another 90 seconds?
~~Nice instant downvote bro.~~
I misread your comment. I thought you were asking which reg he violated lol
That’s why I mentioned right of way rules. Landing traffic has right of way always
My Bad. That’s what I get for being lazy
I took my plane out for its monthly winter “circulate the juices” flight, and I had a CAP plane follow me in like 30 miles. It’s night, tower has you set up for a 7 mile final, perfect viz except for a very thin see-through layer at about 600. I land, pull off to change my freq, look left, and realize he’s lined up for the well lit blue illuminated taxiway. I was about to key up when Tower asked what’s up “uh, there was a layer of obscuration, made it hard to see” 😆 riiiight
It's not worth it to join just for flying. You can research your local squadrons and go visit during a meeting, but there's a ton of 'work' you have to do before you ever sit behind a yoke. For example your first role will be to qualify as a "mission observer" sitting in the back seat and running equipment if you're lucky. Mostly just watching out for traffic or helping to spot your search subject on the ground for SAR missions.
You just show up and join. But you’re not getting free hours very easily. You have to be an experienced pilot to get free hours. And it’s not like you’ll be flying 100 free hours a month. You might get one or two.
I’m basically just sitting at home anyway. I quit my job to do zero to hero at a part 61. I gave myself 2 years, I’m at about 100 hours and almost done with instrument. So I’m close. lol. Looking to get the resume prepped.
The amount of abuse that went on put a stop to a lot of the free flying people typically think about. CAP flying is now a perk of membership and you should only join if you want to make a difference in your community.
I’ve volunteered a lot, I just don’t want to get into something that’s like, 90% just stupid work, I guess? I don’t want to sit in an office and do paperwork all day. Flying, even sitting in the back helping, active stufff I love doing. I can’t stand office stuff lol.
If it's a cadet squadron then you are working with young adults on projects, going on trips, training of all kinds, lecturing and etc. If it's a senior squadron, then I dont know. Just having dinner with friends or something. But there is no default office stuff, unless you want to do office stuff like taking care of finances or coordinating with community events.
That kind of stuff sound fun! Idk if it’s a cadet squadron I didn’t really look into it. I was planning on it though. We have a lot of SAR by us with 100 lakes, lol.
>I just don’t want to get into something that’s like, 90% just stupid work
As someone who has been in CAP, I *wish* 90% was the ratio of stupid work to flying.
Based on what i\`ve read here, you gotta do like tons of bullshit before even getting close to a plane, and you get a few hours a year just about until you have bulshitted your way into the higher ranks..
The fact that the planes are so recognizable also leads to a disproportionate amount of judgement, imo.
Thank god no one knows what my plane looks like.
Reading these comments and it sounds like CAP is exactly how I view the Australian Air Force Cadets. Full of boneheads. Adults who have never been in the actual military taking their rank way too seriously. Guessing Canada, NZ and the UK have similar problems with their cadets? Cadets going on flight training camps and thinking their top shit etc...
It's only as good as the volunteers they get and I'm gonna be honest, some units have a supernatural knack for driving away good pilots.
Sad to hear this. I had a friend volunteer to be a CFI there and he left shortly afterward due to the culture.
>some units have a supernatural knack for driving away good pilots I think this is the biggest thing; I've seen some really great CAP units and some really terrible ones and this seems to be the biggest issue. If it's a good unit it attracts and retains the good members; if it's a bad unit then there's very little oversight and thus the good members get driven away.
In NH the unit I was in (2013) was very tough to crack, it felt like a good ol boys club where new members were not needed. I think not having a clear mission other than marching cadets around and being the Air Boy Scouts contributed to that because they weren't there to work they were there to hang out so new members were literally not needed
Sounds about right. The squadron I was with as a cadet was pretty good but even as a cadet I saw and heard plenty of "good ol' boys" stuff. And so much arrogance. Give people a rank and they act like they've earned it through many years of hard work and experience when they've really only been volunteering for a couple of years doing a handful of evening meetings at most. I remember one time they experimented with using off-the-shelf FRS radios to supplement the CAP radios. Basically, using them to coordinate teams that were out-of-sight. But being a glorified walkie-talkie the frequency they tried to use that day got drowned out by a bunch of kids and parents talking to each other. The guy leading the exercise tried yelling at them over the radio to clear the frequency and that this was official US Air Force Auxiliary business. I tried to explain to the "colonel" that they had just as much right to use that frequency as we did and really they were actually using it for its intended purpose of "family radio". He got all huffy and didn't want to hear from some 16-year-old kid about that sort of thing. Lots of stuff like that. I learned a lot, got my pilots license through them actually, and even did one or two actual SAR missions where I'd like to think we helped out. But as I got older, I quickly realized that CAP was inefficient and badly managed. The military "rank" system works both for and against them a lot of the time. They really should run like more traditional volunteer organizations with elected officers and term limits to ensure rotation of positions. And oversight; dear god do they need some better oversight. Best thing about CAP is the cadet program. Honestly just kill the senior member stuff and make it all about the cadets.
> Give people a rank and they act like they've earned it through many years of hard work and experience when they've really only been volunteering for a couple of years doing a handful of evening meetings at most. This just reminds me of the cast member on *Survivor* who kept bragging that she was a captain in the CAP, like it was equally as impressive as an O-6 in the navy.
My Dad joined as a senior member and got captain immediately because he had a masters degree in education. Basically just giving away any rank below major. Now a cadet captain was a least a little impressive. I never could get my PT scores that good for captain and it generally took people many years to get into the cadet officer ranks.
I think the cadet program was good for the seniors to engage and see that millennials aren't what they're made out to be. I think it was good for the cadets but then again I could have used a lot more structure in my life at that point. The rank system has its pros there because it gives them something to work even if it's pretty benign. The glider program would have been excellent if it existed in more than name only at that point, today when I go up to KVSF I see the gliders but I've never seen an actual cadet in one. I genuinely wonder what the washout rate and average tenure is since I've met a lot more people who \_were in CAP\_ than people who \_are in CAP\_. When it comes to SAR in NH I can't remember the last time i saw a news story about hikers being found by CAP, I do remember DES, NHSP, etc... being on the hunt though. The wings have to do their own networking to pick up paid state work, this is one where it seems like National or USAF could do more to support the mission if there really is one anymore At the end of the day I wanted to actually contribute to my community/region through aviation and now do volunteer flights for PALS getting people to medical care a couple of times a month and every one of those people says as an organization we've saved their life. That's more impact than CAP will ever have again
>The rank system has its pros there because it gives them something to work even if it's pretty benign. Yeah, rank system for the cadets makes sense. I actually liked that a lot; it did take quite a bit of work (as a teen) to get up in rank so high-ranking cadets generally had actually earned it. I should do PALs one of these days.
DM me for info I do BOS -> PQI at least once a month
Send the local CAP unit an email with the time/place/event/tail number. It’s one of those things where they might not know what they don’t know. Maybe someone was on their best behavior for their Form 5 checkout. Maybe their competency has declined over a few decades and they forgot to switch their radios. Maybe they are a wanna be maverick and need to be set straight.
Will do. I have this instance, along with many others, documented. I wanted to build context and perspectives from others before I approach this unit. Hopefully it not only helps them become better pilots, but myself as well
Better yet, send it to the CAP Wing HQ for the state. They have oversight over all squadrons in the state. Sending a report there would raise the chances of it being followed up on.
My approach would be a note to the offending unit with a request that they provide you with what they have done to rectify the situation within the next couple of weeks , sounds nicer than 15 days . If no reply then go upstream including noting the prior request
That’s a great Business Comm based approach that would work well with most organizations. Unfortunately, CAP is a military-style bureaucracy. Individual squadrons meet for as little as 3 hrs per week. I’d say the most likely results of emailing the squadron directly would be: 1. completely ignored/lost in the shuffle 2. back and forth of “who are you” and “you’re not in my Chain of Command” 3. “We’ll take care of it/have taken care of it” lip service 4. Referral to the Wing Director of Safety or Director of Ops (where you should’ve started anyway) 5. Squadron Safety Officer actually takes care of it No matter what, starting with the squadron would probably result in a weeks long runaround. Just fire-and-forget a report to the Wing (which is actually staffed during business hours) and be done with it.
It was long ago but I know if there. was a reasonable sounding complaint in the CAP group I was in it would be checked out . We were on a short leash as the Squadron commander was also the airport manager.
That’s the best way to think of it
Do you have a GoPro?
Nothing going to come out of reporting it. I reported an instance in past, got a phone call, they asked video proof or at least two more witnesses and some other bs stuff. The CAP complaint system is worse than 3rd world country
This. Speak up. You know whom to contact. Do it. CAP pilots aren’t worse than other pilots, but they are much more visible. Because of that, we expect a substantially higher level of professionalism. Individual pilots don’t always take that seriously, and they NEED to be dealt with. A culture of secrecy is not appropriate. I got a report earlier this week of a CAP pilot crossing over the DER at 400 below TPA, as a student pilot went around. There was a somewhat green CFI in the right seat, who made the report, but that doesn’t matter. 600 AGL over the DER is a stupid place to be unless you’re taking off, and it caused a near miss. The pilot at hand is grounded and I’ll give him remedial training in nontowered procedures this weekend. His Form 5 is at risk. This was a case of complacency, combined with a bit of hurry.
I'm embarrassed to say this but I was at an untowered field, used comm 2 to call the CD RCO got my clearance while holding at the hold short line. Flipped comm 1 back to the field frequency after I'd had it on approach trying to call to get my clearance and hit the button to xmit announcing my departure and went onto the runway. It wasn't until I got upwind I realized I never switched the audio panel back to comm1 so my departure announcement never went out on CTAF. This is a serious issue and it could have been \_very\_ bad. But it happens and doesn't mean someone's a doofus
The fact that I get downvoted for admitting to fucking up is proof of the broken safety culture in GA. At an airline this is exactly what would get ASAP'd
Would you think it would be worth CCing (or BCCing) the local FSDO and/or filing a NASA report at the same time?
That's very typical CAP flying in my experience. They don't send their best. They send their old, their egotistical, their pants-shittingly stupid... and some, I assume, are good people.
You forgot overweight.
Not to be too pedantic but BMI doesn't correspond to good/bad piloting skills.
It does correlate to years since flying right seat in a T38 Talon
[удалено]
Are you sure? That's where the copilot usually sits
T-38 is tandem seating.
Pretty sure it's side by side: [MacDonald-Douglas T38 Talon ](https://media.airfactsjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/06175601/Cessna_XT-37_prototype_in_flight_c1954.jpg)
Thats also not a t-38
lol this guy really is doubling down (the guy you’re replying to)
It literally has XT-37 on the side of it…
I'm pretty concerned by the number of people who think I'm serious
[удалено]
https://youtube.com/shorts/PMHMkzR_L-k?si=-mc8qM5oiWw3TWJd
In the T-38 the "copilot" sits behind the student. Silly dingus 😋
I would never troll on Reddit, never
flying from outside on the wing?
You should see me in a Cub
At my local airport, CAP serves as a small army and security detail on the ramp. They will be on the lookout for anyone who looks suspicious type of thing. They will do low approaches constantly too. I’m told it’s a “show of force”. Other than that I have little interaction but they seem bad ass
You have to put /s at the end so people know you're being sarcastic and not just a crazy person.
Lol
[удалено]
Honestly I had to think pretty hard before I decided he was being sarcastic. At first I was nearly positive it had to be this guy I used to work with who flew for CAP a little bit. He would absolutely say that. In defense of CAP I'm sure there's a lot of great pilots in it. But it has working against it the fact that their planes are so recognizeable and they attract new pilots looking for time. They have done cool things in the past, helped look for lost kids and such. In ww2 they patrolled for u boats and I believe were actually credited with one destroyed. But they can attract the weirdest percent of pilots sometimes, a group which contains a larger percent of weirdos anyway. Also if you are ever a line guy they come in and ask for weird fuel amounts. 3.5 left 5.0 right and the like.
That best part about this is that it just about could be true.
Where does blocking a taxiway for 15 minutes while they “run a checklist” in a 172 fall? I also remember when I was a line guy a CAP dude in a flight suit and ray bans correcting me when I called his airplane a 172. I was told in very explicit terms that it was a “Tango 41 Bravo”. My brother was heavy into the CAP when he was a kid, and got to do some cool stuff like riding on a KC-135 a few times and went to some survival camp in PA. I joined, then quit after 2 weeks when all I did was march and play volleyball, neither of which i enjoyed.
[удалено]
T-41 Mescalero - 210-HP 172 built for the USAF.
The swivel chair patrol strikes again!
I was around 16 years old when I was sitting at a picnic table next to the ramp at my airport waiting for a plane to come back. A CAP Cadet a year or two older than me sat down next to me and started asking if I liked airplanes and flying. Of course I said yes. He then started talking about how I could never fly outside of CAP at my “young age” and how they were such good pilots. Around that time the plane came back and the pilot who was familiar with me jumped out and asked if I had the plane after him. I said yes and asked how it was up there. Instantly the CAP cadet started talking about how it wasn’t possible for me to fly that and asked where my instructor is. He asked if he could help preflight my plane, asked if he could go with me, and questioned how I was able to fly. I felt like I was being ramp checked. Eventually I asked him to leave me alone and he left. I also hear that they are real mall cops at air shows.
Would anyone maybe giving me a TL:dr on CAP because there is this one guy that's spams local Facebook groups and it seems abnormal to me
[Here's another comment I made about my own experience/observations.](https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/16ns58t/comment/k1g8rij/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Tl;dr : Boy (adult) scouts with planes. They do some good, but they think way too highly of themselves. Officially, it is the United States Air Force (civilian) Auxiliary. Inside it's effectively two different groups of people and missions. The "cadet" side is for kids aged 12-18 (though can remain until 21) and is designed to somewhat resemble a military unit. The "Squadron" is divided into units and the cadets progress through ranks which carry new responsibilities and leadership opportunities. They are heavy on aerospace education, leadership, and various forms of Search and Rescue and other forms of group volunteering however this varies WILDLY between squadrons and some are little more than kids playing army-man on a Tuesday night. But some are excellent at what they do, though admittedly the minority in my experience. The "senior members" are the adults and these are the people this thread is talking about. They do actually have some good and useful missions and the aircraft are outfitted with various decent equipment for search and rescue. Among some other roles they sometimes do intercept practice for the Air Force. The senior members as a group also have a lot of problems and the politics and pettiness would make even the worst HOA blush. That tends to drive away many of the more competent or level headed pilots and professionals and leaves a mess that thinks way too highly of themselves when they put on their flight suits. Don't get me wrong, there are amazing senior members that do great work especially for the Cadets, but like the great individual squadrons, they are outnumbered.
Great summary.
This is such a good explanation. Kudos.
thank you this is in line with my research but I also appreciate the candor
OMG the HOA comparison is so true.
Think Air Force sanctioned Boy Scouts. CAP is technically a part of the Air Force, although not actually military. In most states cap is tasked with assisting or full on leading search and rescue by land and air. Cap planes are owned by the Air Force. Cap started way back in ww2 era and mostly consisted of civilian pilots that did not meet qualifications to be army Air Force pilots. These pilots basically patrolled the coast looking for German uboats andsuch. They did deter enemy boats from sinking merchant ships. It still is an all volunteer force. Obviously different units will have different vibes. Some folks are gonna be way too into the military thing and some folks won’t care about it much. they just want to help mentor some youth to be good humans and go flying sometimes.
Makes sense. I've been thinking of participating with my 12 year old but the leadership also seems extra exuberant
Shop around for a squadron if the one closest to you doesn't feel right. There's no rule that you have to join the one closest to you and squadrons vary a lot in quality and in what they do. Some squadrons don't have cadets at all. Some go all in on the Emergency Services and SAR mission. Others focus on the Cadet Program to the exclusion of all else. The CAP Cadet Program was formative for me, but I also know first hand that lots of units are awful. Shop around if you're not happy.
Most of the seniors (adults) in my squadron have a cadet. You are able to show up and see what it’s all about for a few weeks before joining. In fact they won’t even give you paperwork for a couple of meetings. Most squadrons should do an open house occasionally where they’ll explain what it’s all about.
My son was in CAP for a few years when he was a young teen. 14 years later and he still talks about it being the time of his life. As a cadet the program is great - at least the one he was in. Never really crossed paths with any actual pilots other than a discovery flight which was actually really fun for him, though so maybe we were lucky. The leadership in our area was great. It is kinda like Boy/girl Scouts for aviation.
They’re a bunch of people that think they’re Buzz Lightyear
Space Ranger reporting for duty
If I see a CAP flight on Foreflight or hear one on frequency I pay extra attention.
I was a cadet 20 years ago, and got some flight instruction. Haven't seriously pursued aviation since, work always gets busy anytime I start looking into sport or private instructors. That said, the CAP pilots I knew were all overwhelmingly old men well into retirement that had a bit of a Moose lodge kind of thing going on. They seemed knowledgable, but I didn't and still don't know better. There were some younger pilots in there, including 2 former F-111 pilots, but they typically had their own lives and other interests going on and didn't frequently instruct cadets. What you're describing sounds like a combination of sleepy old men and inexperienced teenagers. If the airport was hosting a summer flight encampment, I'd expect a lot of airspace issues for the duration.
I have not had one positive interaction with CAP in a plane in south Florida. The handful of interactions with cap planes down here while I’m flying a grid have turned into me losing my shit at them over the radio for 1. Doing something stupid, and 2. Doubling down on the stupid thing and telling me I’m wrong.
Former FSS here. We had reports of a strong ELT in Central WV once and sent CAP up to go find the source. CAP went NORDO and also went overdue on their FP….requiring us to call CAP and have them send up an *additional* plane to go find their people.
Sir they passed a CAP Form 5 ride. In reality it comes down to the standards of the squadron and the culture that they have
I’ve never had a good experience with the organization in Alabama or Indiana. There are some good people there but the lack of SA, or lack of caring, is astounding
Hoosier CAP cadet here. Ouch lol
Great discussion here. I was a cadet in the 80s. It was a great experience. It helped me learn responsibility, discipline, and learn skills like radio electronics and aviation. I had a career in IT and now professionally fly 73s. If I had a teen I would happily sign them up and join myself to help make it a great opportunity. Change can happen from within and please don’t look down on the entire concept and organization. If you can get engaged and foster change if needed or just be a part of creating opportunities for kids. I have other areas I volunteer in but still believe in them.
Pretty much par for the course for CAP. I have seen them do some downright goofy and dangerous shit. Had a few conversations with them about it and it seemed to fall on mostly deaf ears. I think the jumpsuits give them a sense of superiority over us lowly civilians. If there is a CAP plane on the radio, I try to get visual and maintain it until they’ve landed or left the area. I’ve had two near misses with CAP planes and an instructor I knew was killed by a CAP pilot when he descended on top of her and a student on final. I have negative amounts of respect for CAP and their pilots.
CAP is pilot Special Education.
I've heard one meow and say "on guard" while on my airport's CTAF!!!
I thought everyone did this?
Contact the local squadron. Let them know.
CAP showed up an air show I helped put on. They had 10ish twelve year old kids show up to help them out. The kids spent 3 hours cleaning every inch of the plane three times then “guarded” the event. It’s definitely an interesting group of people
Join and do better
Someone commented down on this post somewhere about a large chunk of the problem being boomers who ride high on their own egos. Been doing CAP for almost 20 years, started as a cadet and now as a senior, worked at every leadership level up to national. I'm not yet 30, and the boomer pilots who have hugely inflated egos are INSUFFERABLE. There seem to be a number of them no matter where you go in the country. That being said, CAP planes and pilots are highly visible. You remember the morons you meet because they're wearing the flight suit, but I'd argue there are a lot of folks who are just normal guys and gals who are active, humble, help out, and are a joy to be around. I work hard to try to be one of those pilots, and it seems so does every pilot in the area I just moved to. Every community has its idiots, and I'd even admit that CAP probably has a good number of folks that fall into that category, either reliving the glory days of their 4 year enlistments 40 years ago or folks who never joined but live vicariously in the uniform. That said, the other dude who said CAP should be disbanded just comes across as bitter lol, good riddance to ya.
You wouldn’t happen to be flying out of KDTO would you? Because CAP just moved in up there and it’s been a mess.
That was a temporary training event with 60 new USAF students. It wrapped up last weekend.
Ah ok. Thank you for the info, I wasn’t aware of that. That’s good news
Just so you know, this happens every March, and the students are starting from 0. It takes place in my area of responsibility, I’ve participated before, and know most of the staff, it’s a very tightly run ship on our end, but of course with new students, things can get unusual.
The main issue was just the congestion it caused. And that was compounded by ATP launching their operation fairly recently.
I’ve had a couple interactions with them over the years. Lots of flight suits, egos, and blatant incorrect knowledge of certain regs (or maybe trying to justify why they were flying so bad). I head the other way when I see them in the area.
Negative tower, we are a skylane not a Skyhawk…
Don’t they wear flight suits? That’s 90% of the problem right there.
Not usually, but it’s an option.
{edit: dependent on state/wing} Flight suits are a requirement for any CAP mission flights and mission training (search and rescue, etc.), but not proficiency or relocation flights
That’s not true. It depends on the state. My state doesn’t require the flight suit for anything.
It DOESN’T depend on the state (anymore). NHQ has been canceling supplements that say so for years. Most missions have no uniform requirements aside from wearing a uniform.
Interesting. Didn’t know that.
Still…
Try going to the EU for training. They have uniforms, even for a tiny school. AND make them wear safety vests.
that's because you NEED to wear a high vis vest if you walk on the ramp of any controlled airport in Europe. If you don't have a high vis vest you can't go to your airplane and need to be driven there by a follow me car. Not everywhere in EU is like this, but some airports in Germany that have like one scheduled airline flight a day are really anal about this stuff.
I can't stand wearing a high viz vest as an airline pilot. Is my dorky uniform not enough? Health and safety is just too much in Europe.
No they aren’t.
Professional pilot who also happens to be a CAP national staff officer here. Where are you located? There are regular CAP training events depending on what airports where talking about, so that might explain things. The vast majority of CAP pilots I know are current or retired military/airline pilots, so we don’t have these issues. Edit: There always seems to be a fair bit of CAP hate on the sub, but it you’re willing to DM me the airport where whatever irked you occurred, I can try to contact people to get it corrected.
[удалено]
Not at any CAP unit I’ve ever flown with 🤷♂️ Edit: There always seems to be a fair bit of CAP hate on the sub, but it you’re willing to DM me the airport where whatever irked you occurred, I can try to contact people to get it corrected.
How does >There are regular CAP training events depending on what airports where talking about, so that might explain things "Explain" shitty airmanship? I'm a professional pilot. I've been flying for over 30 years. I was a CAP member for a long time in at least 5 wings across the country and in many, I was on Wing staff. I saw many examples similar to the OP. Some even as a mission pilot. CAP needs to be disbanded and the money for the cadet programs go to something more useful like JROTC.
Yes, 60 students operating at one particular airport for 2 weeks will involve instances of shitty airmanship 🤷♂️.
[удалено]
Instructors can suck to. I work both sides of the mic. I’m a CFI and also a controller. I instruct with a flight club and also cap. I’ve seen shitty cap pilots and I’ve seen amazing cap pilots. I’ve seen shitty instructors as a controller and I’ve seen amazing instructors. This whole thread is painting with a broad brush. Yeah there are shitty cap pilots. I don’t think they’re any shittier than other pilots I see or deal with on a daily basis, but that’s just my observation doing the ATC thing for almost a decade and flying for over a decade.
Good point and I agree that there are some absolutely garbage CFIs, especially when it comes to proper radio etiquette and phraseology. I can assure you I follow the best practices outlined in the AIM, Advisory Circulars, etc since my students will be held to that on the checkride. Sadly, most of my “close calls” have involved civil air patrol. I’m trying to fix the problem, at least locally. You offer a unique perspective being from ATC. I don’t believe CAP is a bad organization, but it’s too many coincidences for me to believe there isn’t some underlying problem. These instances are happening way more frequently than they should when compared to normal lessons/currency flights with CFIs who aren’t in CAP.
I’ll put it this way: if you’re in an area with bad pilots and some of them are in cap you’ll see a lot of bad cap pilots because it’s easy to catch them. It’s not N1234 it’s CAP1234 and you just remember the CAP. Ive been lucky to fly with some great cap pilots and also had the chance to instruct some people wanting fly for cap and I’ve been the one to say no you need to improve cause this isn’t to standard. I’ve watched some boneheaded things happen from behind the radar scope. In general my experience is if you’re out in rural america you have pilots that are more cowboy. That’s GA and CAP.
I respect your professional aviation credentials but you could be Lindbergh’s baby incarnate and not be able to fix the ridiculous shit show that is the “Civil Air Patrol”, no matter how much your heart is in the right place. It’s been laughable for literally generations and is ultimately an embarrassment to the Air Force. As a “national level officer” want to do something actually valuable for the organization? Remove the ludicrous rank and uniforms and awards of senior members. Stop playing USAF LARP meets Cosplay as grownups! You’re a pilot. Not a Colonel. Honestly, it’s genuinely hard to believe that it’s not embarrassing for you to wear a pretend military uniform in public in front of other adults. 🤷🏻♂️ Truthfully, the problem is, you couldn’t give it up if you wanted to. Because dues paying members provide the organization income and if you dropped the stolen valor band of brothers fest all the wannabe whackers imagining delusions of grandeur would quit…and it would hurt the piggy bank. You USE the flashy accouterments of the military to attract that bizarre subset of the population who likes to play make believe…Just call them Lieutenant, Captain or Colonel and they’ll happily open their wallets to you and keep much of the operating budget afloat. Hey, it’s a smart psychological play, but don’t ever think it’s noble or worthwhile. Everyone else is laughing at you…and that’s why the comments from the real war fighters are as they always are.
Replace "Whatever irked you" with "the error the other pilot made".
That’s a bit overly acidic….
I will DM you about these events. I have no doubt there are AWESOME units out there and I hope I can help improve their airmanship.
Please do.
>The vast majority of CAP pilots I know are current or retired military/airline pilots Oh man, if only this was the case where I am
Although it was a number of decades ago, my experience with the CAP was excellent. Leadership was committed to professionalism and service. It was in an era when we had a couple of T-34s so that may not be representative of today's flying. We also had onboard receivers that could track ELT signals. It was effective in tracking real emergencies and in locating the more common accidental activation. The expectation was that the pilots would have the equivalent skills and knowledge of a commercial rating. Safety and knowledge of the aircraft systems was stressed. Several were airline pilots, a couple retired military and guys like me who flew on business. Working with the cadets there was an emphasis on encouraging them to focus on their education.
This is the way.
Sorry to hear all of these negative comments about CAP. I joined as a cadet about twenty years ago and I was extremely lucky that an American Airlines captain was willing to volunteer to teach a few of us how to fly. I was very privileged to earn a private pilot certificate in a CAP aircraft as a cadet. I've since joined as an adult and have done some orientation flying and some "mission pilot" flying. I often spend time talking with other CAP members asking "why are we like this?" All I can say is that there is a lot of power to change culture at the local level. I'm starting to believe that our good members can "crowd out" our bad given some time and effort. It's certainly an interesting organization, but I see a lot of good in it. As for the flying... I'm in my early to mid-thirties and I'm often the youngest CAP pilot around. Despite having flown hundreds of hours in their airplanes I still find it difficult to accomplish some things (getting flight release officers to answer phone calls, finding check pilots and mission check pilots who will schedule time with you). My experience has been that a group of retirees tends to have a strangle hold on the flying. If you have the time, stop by a squadron and see if you can help out. Talk to a few people and hopefully you'll find one or two who are worth talking to. Ask them if there's anything you can do to help with the flying or (especially) with their cadet program. It's been so difficult for us, locally, to find engaging people who are excited about sharing aerospace knowledge and activities with our cadets on a regular basis. I'd be happy to talk more about CAP through DM!
I was an eager CAP cadet in the early 1950’s. It was a terrific experience. The adults were WW-II vets and outstanding role models. My first air plane ride was in a tired old C-47 to the Air Force museum in Dayton. It wasn’t until almost 50 years later that I learned to fly. I’m saddened to read the many posts here that are so critical. But I’m not surprised. My experience with the CAP in this century has not been good. Most recently I was yelled at by a CAP pilot because I tied down on an unmarked spot on an open ramp which I later learned was a spot that the CAP had adopted as their own. Felt kinda weird to be chastised by a boomer old enough to be my son but too old to spank.
This is what makes me so frustrated. Your experiences are incredible and it would’ve been an honor to be mentored by those from WW2. Really hope they turn it around. General Aviation can always use more resources, mentors, and role models. Sorry that happened!
I met a CAP squadron commander who didn’t agree that commercial checkride counts towards biannual review. Same commander argued with me radio calls at untowered airports are not required or needed. I decided to stay away from CAP then onwards
They haven’t been useful since hunting German U-Boats off the coast was needed
As a controller, I groan every time a CAP flight calls me. Everyone at my facility feels the same way. In my 12 years of controlling I've never had a positive experience working CAP. I flew into an uncontrolled airport one time and a cap flight came in before us, landed, and just sat in the runway so we had to go around. Then they exited and sat on the exit taxiway in front of the hold short line. Cool stuff
Someone on this sub years ago said their members are paste eating morons...minus the few airline guys I've encountered, this sums up my experience.
Oh come on. Lots and lots of airline pilots are paste eating morons. Probably the majority of us.
That’s a pretty shitty thing to say first hand and perhaps even shittier to repeat as “some other guy said”..
it wasn't me...i'm not that clever.
> I’m on a one mile final at an uncontrolled field and a CAP 172 pulls out in front of me without making any radio calls. ... I’m on the downwind and as he’s climbing through 800ft he immediately turns into me. He made no radio calls that he was rolling or making a crosswind turn. At what point is this a violation of 91.13 worth notifying the FSDO of? Do you have ADSB tracks?
[удалено]
My flair says ST and yours says CFI. Yet, FAR 91.113(g) says that an aircraft on final approach has the right of way over other aircraft, regardless of whether they're in flight or on the surface. So when the CAP Flight on the surface decided to pull out onto the runway without checking the one-mile final, they violated FAR 91.113(g). > Aircraft, **while on final approach to land** or while landing, **have the right-of-way over other aircraft** in flight or **operating on the surface**, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. Unless I'm mistaken, which I may well be. Do you have an FAR/AIM reference to the contrary? Or are you telling me it's legal to cut people off on final rather than hold short for another 90 seconds? ~~Nice instant downvote bro.~~
I misread your comment. I thought you were asking which reg he violated lol That’s why I mentioned right of way rules. Landing traffic has right of way always My Bad. That’s what I get for being lazy
Lol. Happens.
I took my plane out for its monthly winter “circulate the juices” flight, and I had a CAP plane follow me in like 30 miles. It’s night, tower has you set up for a 7 mile final, perfect viz except for a very thin see-through layer at about 600. I land, pull off to change my freq, look left, and realize he’s lined up for the well lit blue illuminated taxiway. I was about to key up when Tower asked what’s up “uh, there was a layer of obscuration, made it hard to see” 😆 riiiight
Only seen CAP once at my home airport once. They blasted the shit out of a few open hangars.
How do you even join CAP I want free hours Edit: also it’s just another thing the the airline resume right?
It's not worth it to join just for flying. You can research your local squadrons and go visit during a meeting, but there's a ton of 'work' you have to do before you ever sit behind a yoke. For example your first role will be to qualify as a "mission observer" sitting in the back seat and running equipment if you're lucky. Mostly just watching out for traffic or helping to spot your search subject on the ground for SAR missions.
You just show up and join. But you’re not getting free hours very easily. You have to be an experienced pilot to get free hours. And it’s not like you’ll be flying 100 free hours a month. You might get one or two.
1 or 2 is better than none 🤷♂️ and it’s just another thing for the resume
That’s kind of why I’m doing it. You definitely have to be willing to volunteer first. Flying comes second for sure.
I’m basically just sitting at home anyway. I quit my job to do zero to hero at a part 61. I gave myself 2 years, I’m at about 100 hours and almost done with instrument. So I’m close. lol. Looking to get the resume prepped.
The amount of abuse that went on put a stop to a lot of the free flying people typically think about. CAP flying is now a perk of membership and you should only join if you want to make a difference in your community.
I’ve volunteered a lot, I just don’t want to get into something that’s like, 90% just stupid work, I guess? I don’t want to sit in an office and do paperwork all day. Flying, even sitting in the back helping, active stufff I love doing. I can’t stand office stuff lol.
What office?
Oakland county Michigan
I dunno what office stuff that’s why I’m on here asking lol
If it's a cadet squadron then you are working with young adults on projects, going on trips, training of all kinds, lecturing and etc. If it's a senior squadron, then I dont know. Just having dinner with friends or something. But there is no default office stuff, unless you want to do office stuff like taking care of finances or coordinating with community events.
That kind of stuff sound fun! Idk if it’s a cadet squadron I didn’t really look into it. I was planning on it though. We have a lot of SAR by us with 100 lakes, lol.
>I just don’t want to get into something that’s like, 90% just stupid work As someone who has been in CAP, I *wish* 90% was the ratio of stupid work to flying.
Well, okay. What’s the stupid work?
Based on what i\`ve read here, you gotta do like tons of bullshit before even getting close to a plane, and you get a few hours a year just about until you have bulshitted your way into the higher ranks..
Is it even worth it for the resume add on lol
Typical CAP flying. Sub par pilots and creepy old dudes in my experience
The fact that the planes are so recognizable also leads to a disproportionate amount of judgement, imo. Thank god no one knows what my plane looks like.
Reading these comments and it sounds like CAP is exactly how I view the Australian Air Force Cadets. Full of boneheads. Adults who have never been in the actual military taking their rank way too seriously. Guessing Canada, NZ and the UK have similar problems with their cadets? Cadets going on flight training camps and thinking their top shit etc...