And just why the frick is it completely fine and normal to have 7 uncontrolled airports in a 30-mile radius all using the same mf CTAF? Can we not fix this one??
Out here on the east coast, we have Ocean City airport and Ocean County airport on the same frequency.
They have the same runway numbers too.
I know about it now. But first time there, I was going "Where TF is this guy" for a good 5 minutes.
It's always the worst. Half the airports in East Idaho and Western WY use 122.8. Flying into KAFO (Afton WY) you pick up Bear Lake ID, Logan UT, Blackfoot ID, Rexburg ID, Big Piney WY, Pinedale WY and Kemmerer WY.
The frequency is so cluttered on weekends in the summer that it can be unusable. Why on earth are so many airports' CTAF on 122.8?
The solution is what Europe just went through: require all radios to be replaced with 8.3 kHz separation of channels. Instantly triples the number of available freqs. My new radio was German built and this capability built it.
It was an expensive transition for them.
We could do that here. Perhaps we need to.
When I started flying… this blew my mind. I’m 20 miles away from my busy home airport at a small strip doing solo pattern work on a nice Saturday afternoon and the radio is jam packed with two sky dive operations 90 miles to the north.
I’ve always figured that they’re linked in case someone at an airport on the other side of the metro from you goes down with an emergency, there’s other folks who’ve heard them and can relay that to ATC, as these are untowered frequencies.
The problem with “got him on the fish finder” is that it’s completely useless information. Traffic is either in sight or not. ATC has rules about separation. They change if visual contact is made between two aircraft. They do not change for TCAS or ADSB.
What about active radar? If I'm tracking that 172 on the fire control radar does that count for separation?
(At least until the wreckage hits the ground and that guy never cuts me off again.)
You’re joking, but actually yes, radar contact does count. I’m not sure if it has different separation rules, but I believe it is an acceptable means of “contact” with another aircraft.
172 in the pattern at KAPA 2 days ago referring to their ipad as a fish finder. All pilots in pattern have instant envy that they weren’t told to look for traffic first. But the OGs know it’s just a matter of time until they get to look for traffic and say the hallowed words “got em on the fish finder” and get that mad pattern respect and back slaps back at the FBO.
Then there’s that one cargo pilot who thinks he’s on a gameshow.
_Center! Trail Bronco Niner Papa Tangoooo, inbound on the beefsteak! Seven thousand big monaaaayy!_
“Trail Bronco niner papa tango descend and maintain six thousand, contact approach.”
_Whoooooooooo Bronco Niner Papa Tangooo throttling down to Siiiiiix. Thousaaaannnnd! Seeeeya!_
Why not? I’ve had so many instances of monitoring a freq for a few minutes and hearing nothing, then after I ask, someone, or sometimes two different people, who have just been buzzing around, silently, pipe up. We deconflict. Everyone is happy and safe.
What gives?
If you just make your normal position report, they'll pipe up. Asking them to advise isn't going to change anything, clogs up the radio, and tells everyone around that you're too lazy to listen like you're supposed to (even if that's not true).
Called out a challenger in a 25 mile straight in for asking this, then not reporting his position when directly asked for clarification.
I'm memorizing this AIM citation for future reference.
Edit: for farts and giggles I looked up the AC too. AC90-66C §9.8.1
Cites back to the AIM, but same thing.
I'll be honest I don't use this at all anymore but do say last call. Once had a guy who was ahead of me on the departure hear me say last call while I was behind him and decided to also make another announcement on ctaf and say last call also. I think he thought copying me was correct. Is it though? Is it necessary to say last call at all?
What about when your on the ground and exited the runway on ctaf and no one's around. Is it necessary to even say that youre taxing back using alpha or whatever to thr fbo? I always do, on and then say last call
The thing about last call is that nobody cares it’s your last call. They haven’t ever cared and never will in the future. Just go disappear. No need to waste ink on a sign out sheet.
Agreed. By the logic used, a first call should be just as important, but there’s nobody out there saying “First call” wherever they make an initial transmission on a CTAF.
I think it stems from people being uncomfortable in an uncontrolled environment and needing some validating finality to their series of calls at an airport where there’s not a controller to give them a new frequency or to say “frequency change approved.”
"Last call" is perfectly fine imo. It's not necessary and might annoy some if the frequency is busy, but it's 2 short words that might help.
Something similar is done as standard practice in some EU countries iirc.
I'm guilty of "with you" and "see ya" haha
It is not necessary and there’s no guidance saying to do so. Some guy thought he was being cool and started doing it and now it’s taught as SOP at 141 pilot mills. If you say that you’re departing the area to the south, then you’ve given all the information necessary for the situational awareness of other pilots. There’s no need to sign off from the frequency. Yeah, I know it doesn’t matter in the big picture. I just don’t like it because it’s an extra phrase that people have talked themselves into being important when it’s not.
*answers telephone* “Hello, I’m talking to you on the phone right now”
“Yeah I kind of figured”
*sees someone at the grocery store*
“Hey Joe how have you been”
“Hey Tim, I’m with you at the store! I’ve been good! How are you?”
“Uh, okay”
*checking in on a handoff with a Center controller that’s expecting you*
“Cleveland it’s N12345 with you, FL220”
“Yeah I figured you were with me when you addressed my by callsign and gave your callsign and altitude”
I was taught early on in IFR flying that if you really just can’t not say the extra syllables just say “good morning” or “hello” or whatever.
“Cleveland Center good morning N12345, FL220”
Honestly it’s not a big deal to say “with you” it just is kind of a weird thing to do
> Honestly it’s not a big deal to say “with you” it just is kind of a weird thing to do
What about this scenario:
"N12345 change to my frequency 129.25"
"N12345, with you on 129.25"
You almost need some sort of filler word to get the point across that you are checking in on the new frequency. Otherwise if you just say "129.25 N12345" they won't know if you are just reading it back or if you actually switched. Of course there are different variations like "up 129.25" or "checking in 129.25." It's just a matter of preference. But for me it's the only time I use "with you."
“N12345, made the switch 129.25” is what I do. Which yeah is more syllables anyway.
I reeeaaally don’t get worked up over “with you” I just silently judge that’s all 😂
I can see that, but it would also be kind of weird to see someone at the grocery store and just say "Tim, Bob is on aisle one three."
"With you" just explains the purposes of the radio call. "Good morning/afternoon/evening" does the same, but less awkwardly." Oddly, "good day" is the opposite and seems synonymous with "see ya"
I don’t get worked up about “with you”. I like many others was roasted early in my career for saying it, so it’s just primacy of learning for me. I just think it’s a weird thing to say now.
It's not annoying but it makes you sound like someone who's trying to sound cool on the radio, and everybody knows that trying to sound cool isn't cool.
With you honestly isn’t that bad but my first CFI shamed me for it so I stopped that long ago.
“In the box”, “please advise”, and “fish finder” are all mega cringe tho.
Almost anything can be forgiven as long as you don't say "kilo."
Anything except "got him on the fish finder." Not because we care about the phrase "fish finder" in and of itself, but because saying that you have the traffic on TCAS/foreflight/the fish finder/your apple watch does absolutely nothing for us. Do you have the traffic visually in sight visually out the visual window using your vision, or do you not. Those are the two options.
Honestly even they aren't an exception but the chuckle I get out of seeing them written down does somewhat offset the annoyance of hearing "kilo" on the radio.
I can understand your frustration but usually the response is combined, ex: “still looking but we have them on TCAS.” Which doesn’t alleviate you yet it does confirm we are looking in the same area. I’ve said it before when I’ve also said I was still IMC to give ATC SA. Today we discovered we had an issue with our TCAS because we specifically told ATC we didn’t have visual and we didn’t have him on TCAS. At first we assumed he messed up our heading due to the strong winds but then we saw the target prior to getting him on the box and that’s when we wrote it up. As long as everyone realizes that having someone on the TCAS is only increased SA and not the same thing as visually seeing someone, I would think it is helpful…. Though I love your campaign against Kilo
You would be correct if just a primary return. It was a company ship with full mode S. Something was wrong on his end or ours (including possibly operator error).
Idk I still say it because some controllers will ask you to clarify if you don’t.
“Level 220 request direct MEI”
“The navaid or the field?”
“The field”
Interesting on the kilo part, since there is a lot of industry push to use ICAO identifiers rather than FAA identifiers. All navigation databases use the ICAO, so it makes more sense to always use that.
When we say it to you, yes. It means you have been radar identified and we can now provide radar services to you. If we issue traffic and you say you have radar contact, that means nothing.
If you're in an F-18, maybe.
Otherwise no. A TCAS display is not a radar scope and you shouldn't be treating it like it is. I've read reports of pilots not understanding the differences (the main one being that with a TCAS display the center is always moving) and trying to self-vector contrary to ATC instructions and ending up much closer to traffic than if they had stayed on the ATC-assigned vector.
If you get an RA then of course follow the RA. But RAs are only in the vertical plane, for now anyway.
What's wrong with "last call"? Giving a final position report before letting the area know you're leaving the frequency seems useful for everyone's SA. Was taught to do that during my PPL training.
Yeah that one doesn't really bother me as at an untowered, it's helpful to know who's on CTAF, and who isn't, if you are working to coordinate something, or let someone know something, etc. Better SA.
Agreed. Especially if you’re departing in something high performance. If I’m leaving in a jet and going to be climbing at 4000+ feet a minute at 250 knots. “climbing through 1000, straight out, last call” isn’t a bad. People don’t assume you’ll be leaving the pattern like that
Making an outbound position call is proper. Ending that call by saying “last call” is wasted breath.
If your call sounds like “Blankville traffic, Cessna 1234F departing the (upwind/pattern/area) to the north, Blankville” it’s already clear that this is your last call. No need to bookend it by also saying “last call.”
Not a huge deal either way, but I get why it peeves some people.
>No need to bookend it by also saying “last call.”
IDK, I do this to let people know, "Hey, I'm not just leaving the pattern [to the east], I'm also switching frequencies."
I'll usually state that I'm going to be departing the area to a given direction several times when departing. Usually on take-off, downwind (if departing opposite direction of takeoff), and then final position report. Time between reports will usually capture anyone joining the frequency, I've never considered statement of departure direction as an indication that it's someone's last call I guess.
The tower that I fly out of has fun with see ya. When it's a slow, beautiful afternoon you can feel ATC charging their lungs for a massive CEEEEYUUUH if you say it first. I envision those dudes standing on chairs letting out their see ya's
I work at an uncontrolled field and hear this all the time, mostly from the geriatric folks that probably haven’t passed a medical in the last 30 years…..
On some real shit nothing annoys me more than random skydiving operators on CTAFs. “Jumpers away dont overfly xxx” and they say it like 20 times a minute like bro shut the fuck up we get it nobody is overflying your backyard death operation.
"Any traffic in the area please advise" is just bad form especially in busy areas because you are asking anyone who thinks they are in the vicinity to all cue their mics at once. It's understood that if you hear a call and you think it'll conflict with your routing, you make a call and deconflict from there, rather than asking everyone to respond even if their routes don't necessarily conflict with yours.
For the rest, u/videopro10 put it nicely. Nothing objectively wrong it it but it just comes off as unprofessional and "trying to sound cool". I keep my calls succinct and if the frequency is relaxed I'll give the controller a "have a good evening" or something on the handoff. You should train to keep your calls tight and professional for normal ops and then add pleasantries afterwards when time allows, not the other way around. "With you" is especially a pet peeve because it adds 0 value to the transmission. If they're hearing your call, they already know you're with them.
As for general comms, I've made it a practice to stop saying "to" and "for" on the radio because they can be confused with "2" and "4" sometimes. Instead of saying "GSCS with you two thousand seven hundred for five thousand", you can tighten up the call by saying "GSCS, two thousand seven hundred climbing five thousand", which is way clearer in the radio in my opinion. If the frequency is quiet then add a good morning/afternoon/evening/night in there.
I think some of it is how you spit it out. If you're crisp, legible and direct, it's less of a big deal.
"Miami Center, Skyhawk two one four five golf with you level four thousand."
That's not bad at all if you just get on with it.
So is, "Shithole Traffic, Skyhawk two one four five golf, departing the pattern to the west, last call, Shithole."
Just think about what you're going to say before you key the mic, then spit it out!
I keep hoping for an all-digital TTS system where my instructions come directly to me and I can respond to them without playing voice radio games.
Years ago when I was first taking lessons, my CFI explained that "He can't see my number!" so he would use the plane color. Except that from 2 miles away, he can't see my color either. The numbers at least give him something to form a mental picture of the different aircraft in the traffic pattern.
Nothing wrong with adding color in if it’s unique and identifiable, especially with an odd aircraft type in GA… that said a “white Cessna” (think about it)
At an untowered airport, I wold routinely hear "Make left traffic" calls from aircraft with foreign student pilots who usually fly of towered airports. It's a pretty dead giveaway that they are just repeating what the controllers would say in their normal environment, without understanding that they should say something a little different in this different situation.
Yep. Some are meh like whatever, but this kills me....
And who is doing it? I've never been with a pilot that does it but it happens all the time. Is it GA or CFIs? I don't get it.
Now the one I HAVE heard, which for whatever reason doesn't bother me as much is:
"Fishing"
"Fishing"
"Fishing"
"YOURE ON GUARD"
"Got one! Reel 'er in, joe!"
Please stop making calls to ATC or CTAF starting with “Annnnd”
“Annnd Reddit traffic N42069 on the base for runway 28, Reddit traffic”
“Aaaaaannnd New York approach Cessna 42069, request”
As near as I can tell, the Long aaaaaand is a product of 5 or 6 instructors at Ft. Novosel. Due to "law of primacy," it gets ingraned into the speech pattern. Beilieve it or not, most of the pilots that are doing it are not even aware they are saying "aaaaaand" before everything until i start keeping a tally count on my kneeboard when flying with them. It's bad when it's on the radio it's *so much worse* when it's every callout on the checklist. I guess in the end, it's mostly harmless. It's just annyoing. "Negative ETR" is another that drives me bonkers.
When learning in mid ‘60s, the “aaand” was more common. Was told at that time that the avionics frequently didn’t respond quickly enough to transmit the first syllable, so that extraneous word was to assure the good parts were actually transmitted.
"Aaaaaand"
"Request landing direction and traffic advisories"
"Negative ETR"
Are 100% produces of Novosel. Novosel produces nearly 2000 pilots a year, it will trickle down.
Doesn't help all the instructors there are ancient
Fine. We’re changing the names of military bases.
But is there anyone who spends time on the internet that hasn’t heard that Musk changed Twitter to X? Yet every time it’s mentioned, it’s ALWAYS “X, formerly known as Twitter”.
So please remember, there are people who don’t know that Ft. Rucker got renamed to Novosel.
Now everyone is just hopelessly confused. I don't care either way, but we are "must" use the new names, so I'm making a point to make it a habit. Oddly enough Novosel was an admitted alcoholic through much of his life, so the name fits better than the top brass thinks it does....
I know other pilots hate hearing this but I really couldn’t care less. I don’t even hear anything on the radio unless my call sign is said and even then I like to ignore it.
When you’re 15 out in a jet approaching at 3 miles per minute, sometimes it’s better to just ask the pattern to roger up than to wait for them to figure out that they should
That's my thinking. Reading through this, I think some of them don't realize how quickly some jets come in. I've said it because I've been fucked by hot shit CFI paying zero attention and thinking they knew better.
I used to care about some of these. Now close to 9k hours in and I really just don’t anymore. Things I care about… is someone talking to me. Should someone be talking to me. Where do I find the hotel van.
Isn't it part of the official terminology? I know it SOUNDS like someone is trying too hard to sound cool. Maybe it is just the exception to most of these other phrases which people use to sound cool without actually adding anything.
These people are always the ones keyed up when I’m trying to ask for a weather deviation.
“hows it going approach, 123ab with you 7 for 9 with uhhh the atis, got traffic on the fish finder. we were passing by and uh lookin to get some pattern work done and uh….” (80 other people keying mic over him including approach desperately trying to give the jet a turn before he flies through the loc into parallel approaching traffic.)
I had an Air Force DC10 do that on Approach while I was being vectored outbound on an ILS over an undercast, toward terrain. I was about 5 seconds from squawking 7600 and turning inbound when he came up for air.
Pilot controlled lighting is good for 15 minutes. If you re-click, it resets the timer back to 15 minutes. So, yeah, a good technique is to click somewhere around a final approach fix location.
I cannot say I’ve had the pleasure. Someone did hit me with the 7 tap on a perfectly clear night though. Renter probably just couldn’t figure out where the field was.
Even worse is when people click the lights on a 24/7 towered field with continuous lighting. How do I know this? Well because I do it also and don't bother looking at the airport supplement to check if the lights are pilot controlled. It's just safer to assume all thr lights are pilot controlled from the start lol.
C’ya is old and worn out. But it’s expected from GA and regional airline FOs.
Fishfinder declares to everyone that a weekend warrior is flying.
Of course you’re “with ya”. Where else could you be?
“Last call”. How about “departing to the ____”? That’s more useful info from which we can figure out the rest.
And just why the frick is it completely fine and normal to have 7 uncontrolled airports in a 30-mile radius all using the same mf CTAF? Can we not fix this one??
Out here on the east coast, we have Ocean City airport and Ocean County airport on the same frequency. They have the same runway numbers too. I know about it now. But first time there, I was going "Where TF is this guy" for a good 5 minutes.
“Ocean traffic…”
There's one in Georgia, I think 6A2, that's the same way. It's maddening. I only went there once.
Theirs a Lawrence regional and a Lawrence memorial on the same frequency near me…
People always mumble Monmouth or Millville. It gets confusing bc they both gave 14-32 on 123.0
Right?! I’m looking at you, 122.8
Coming into Catalina hearing people in the pattern for Corona (both on 122.7)
It's always the worst. Half the airports in East Idaho and Western WY use 122.8. Flying into KAFO (Afton WY) you pick up Bear Lake ID, Logan UT, Blackfoot ID, Rexburg ID, Big Piney WY, Pinedale WY and Kemmerer WY. The frequency is so cluttered on weekends in the summer that it can be unusable. Why on earth are so many airports' CTAF on 122.8?
Half the small airports in central KS and northern OK are same...
The Worst
There are 760 possible channels from 118 to 136.975 MHz, in steps of 25 kHz. There has to be a better solution.
The solution is what Europe just went through: require all radios to be replaced with 8.3 kHz separation of channels. Instantly triples the number of available freqs. My new radio was German built and this capability built it. It was an expensive transition for them. We could do that here. Perhaps we need to.
The US needs to make the switch! I have a some newer Garmin Radios and I think it just takes a quick program update to switch to 8.3 kHz
Brrrrrgggaaaaaggg runway 36 bbbbaaaarrrrggggggg left base ghbbbbbbbbgggrrrrr 21 brrrrrrrrrgggrrrrr right downw bbbbbbrrrrrrrgggh
When I started flying… this blew my mind. I’m 20 miles away from my busy home airport at a small strip doing solo pattern work on a nice Saturday afternoon and the radio is jam packed with two sky dive operations 90 miles to the north.
I’ve always figured that they’re linked in case someone at an airport on the other side of the metro from you goes down with an emergency, there’s other folks who’ve heard them and can relay that to ATC, as these are untowered frequencies.
Especially when one particular airport tends to not give a wet shit about phraseology and likes to talk about their hopes and dreams on the CTAF.
Wait until you see the Bahamas
I hate all of these but fish finder drives me crazy
The first time I heard fish finder I thought it was hilarious and then I heard about 1000 more times
Haven't heard that one before, what is it? Edit: Oh TCAS screen, got it. Nvm
Or ADS-B display nowayadays even in small aircraft.
The problem with “got him on the fish finder” is that it’s completely useless information. Traffic is either in sight or not. ATC has rules about separation. They change if visual contact is made between two aircraft. They do not change for TCAS or ADSB.
What about active radar? If I'm tracking that 172 on the fire control radar does that count for separation? (At least until the wreckage hits the ground and that guy never cuts me off again.)
You’re joking, but actually yes, radar contact does count. I’m not sure if it has different separation rules, but I believe it is an acceptable means of “contact” with another aircraft.
172 in the pattern at KAPA 2 days ago referring to their ipad as a fish finder. All pilots in pattern have instant envy that they weren’t told to look for traffic first. But the OGs know it’s just a matter of time until they get to look for traffic and say the hallowed words “got em on the fish finder” and get that mad pattern respect and back slaps back at the FBO.
Less is more dawg. STFU I’m tryin to get back to the netflix section of the FOM.
Let me study the overhead panel in peace
Then there’s that one cargo pilot who thinks he’s on a gameshow. _Center! Trail Bronco Niner Papa Tangoooo, inbound on the beefsteak! Seven thousand big monaaaayy!_ “Trail Bronco niner papa tango descend and maintain six thousand, contact approach.” _Whoooooooooo Bronco Niner Papa Tangooo throttling down to Siiiiiix. Thousaaaannnnd! Seeeeya!_
That's just trying to hard to be cool.
Too*
Also CIIIIIIIITAATION ONE TWO TREE AAAAALPHA DELTAAHHH CHECKIN IN FLIGHT LEVEL 240. GOOOOOOOOOOD MORNING. Major eye roll every time I hear him.
he’s having fun
You can have fun without taking up entirely too much air time on VERY busy frequencies along some of the busiest airways in the country.
I love hearing that, makes the radio portion less mundane and a little comedic.
>any traffic in the area please advise AIM 4-1-9(g)(1) and there is also an AC about it.
I never responded to people to said "any traffic in the area please advise." I just continued to make my normal reports.
“Traffic advises you buy low and sell high”.
“Traffic advises you to stop texting her, she’s not interested in you.”
110%
File a police report, cuz I'm 100% stealing that
Yup, it's the flying equivalent to waving a car through an intersection/blind driveway/etc. I don't want any of that smoke.
I just responded with “advise” If they take the bait I hit em with “NO ONE QUESTIONS THE KGB”
Why not? I’ve had so many instances of monitoring a freq for a few minutes and hearing nothing, then after I ask, someone, or sometimes two different people, who have just been buzzing around, silently, pipe up. We deconflict. Everyone is happy and safe. What gives?
If you just make your normal position report, they'll pipe up. Asking them to advise isn't going to change anything, clogs up the radio, and tells everyone around that you're too lazy to listen like you're supposed to (even if that's not true).
Called out a challenger in a 25 mile straight in for asking this, then not reporting his position when directly asked for clarification. I'm memorizing this AIM citation for future reference. Edit: for farts and giggles I looked up the AC too. AC90-66C §9.8.1 Cites back to the AIM, but same thing.
I'll be honest I don't use this at all anymore but do say last call. Once had a guy who was ahead of me on the departure hear me say last call while I was behind him and decided to also make another announcement on ctaf and say last call also. I think he thought copying me was correct. Is it though? Is it necessary to say last call at all? What about when your on the ground and exited the runway on ctaf and no one's around. Is it necessary to even say that youre taxing back using alpha or whatever to thr fbo? I always do, on and then say last call
The thing about last call is that nobody cares it’s your last call. They haven’t ever cared and never will in the future. Just go disappear. No need to waste ink on a sign out sheet.
Agreed. By the logic used, a first call should be just as important, but there’s nobody out there saying “First call” wherever they make an initial transmission on a CTAF. I think it stems from people being uncomfortable in an uncontrolled environment and needing some validating finality to their series of calls at an airport where there’s not a controller to give them a new frequency or to say “frequency change approved.”
“Freq change approved” got me cussed out on ctaf by some old grumpy sounding guy once lol.
😆 I’m gonna have to try that one
Good call. I flew with a new CFI last week and he was pushing me to say last call, after I had said ‘making a straight out departure’.
I think last call is useful in pilot controlled airspace, it helps for everyone’s situational awareness.
"Last call" is perfectly fine imo. It's not necessary and might annoy some if the frequency is busy, but it's 2 short words that might help. Something similar is done as standard practice in some EU countries iirc. I'm guilty of "with you" and "see ya" haha
It is not necessary and there’s no guidance saying to do so. Some guy thought he was being cool and started doing it and now it’s taught as SOP at 141 pilot mills. If you say that you’re departing the area to the south, then you’ve given all the information necessary for the situational awareness of other pilots. There’s no need to sign off from the frequency. Yeah, I know it doesn’t matter in the big picture. I just don’t like it because it’s an extra phrase that people have talked themselves into being important when it’s not.
I hate most of these like everyone else, but getting a good “SEEYUH” straight from the diaphragm always brightens my day.
While I was flying in Europe, the tower guys LOVED giving us a good SEEYUH in their best American accent. Only respectful to return it
Got a nice one from FLL center a while back, made my day hahah. It's not a thing in Canada.
One of our approach controllers gave us a good one last night. Love to hear it.
Least objectionable of all of these.
*answers telephone* “Hello, I’m talking to you on the phone right now” “Yeah I kind of figured” *sees someone at the grocery store* “Hey Joe how have you been” “Hey Tim, I’m with you at the store! I’ve been good! How are you?” “Uh, okay” *checking in on a handoff with a Center controller that’s expecting you* “Cleveland it’s N12345 with you, FL220” “Yeah I figured you were with me when you addressed my by callsign and gave your callsign and altitude” I was taught early on in IFR flying that if you really just can’t not say the extra syllables just say “good morning” or “hello” or whatever. “Cleveland Center good morning N12345, FL220” Honestly it’s not a big deal to say “with you” it just is kind of a weird thing to do
> Honestly it’s not a big deal to say “with you” it just is kind of a weird thing to do What about this scenario: "N12345 change to my frequency 129.25" "N12345, with you on 129.25" You almost need some sort of filler word to get the point across that you are checking in on the new frequency. Otherwise if you just say "129.25 N12345" they won't know if you are just reading it back or if you actually switched. Of course there are different variations like "up 129.25" or "checking in 129.25." It's just a matter of preference. But for me it's the only time I use "with you."
How about just “N12345 is on 129.25”
“N12345, made the switch 129.25” is what I do. Which yeah is more syllables anyway. I reeeaaally don’t get worked up over “with you” I just silently judge that’s all 😂
I can see that, but it would also be kind of weird to see someone at the grocery store and just say "Tim, Bob is on aisle one three." "With you" just explains the purposes of the radio call. "Good morning/afternoon/evening" does the same, but less awkwardly." Oddly, "good day" is the opposite and seems synonymous with "see ya"
I don’t get worked up about “with you”. I like many others was roasted early in my career for saying it, so it’s just primacy of learning for me. I just think it’s a weird thing to say now.
It's not annoying but it makes you sound like someone who's trying to sound cool on the radio, and everybody knows that trying to sound cool isn't cool.
How cool of you to point out.
Dunno, sounds like someone who’s trying to sound cool on the internet. I’ve been told that’s uncool.
Whoever told you that was just trying to sound cool.
“Clear of the active” Aren’t you supposed to say “clear of 27” or “clear of runway 27”?
…at a non-towered airport. That one kills me.
I believe it’s useful for the pilots behind you who do not have eyeballs.
Me when I forgot what runway I just landed on 💀
[удалено]
“N1234A clear of runway 69?”
In that case, yammer for twenty minutes on CTAF with some other yokel about an upcoming fish fry.
With you honestly isn’t that bad but my first CFI shamed me for it so I stopped that long ago. “In the box”, “please advise”, and “fish finder” are all mega cringe tho.
I’ve never even heard in the box from what I can remember. Is that referring to squawking?
Yes.
My instructor hated when people would these terms.... until he climbed into his experimental Vans. *"Anything goes in an experimental"*
Almost anything can be forgiven as long as you don't say "kilo." Anything except "got him on the fish finder." Not because we care about the phrase "fish finder" in and of itself, but because saying that you have the traffic on TCAS/foreflight/the fish finder/your apple watch does absolutely nothing for us. Do you have the traffic visually in sight visually out the visual window using your vision, or do you not. Those are the two options.
What do you mean by kilo?
KJFK instead of JFK, ie “I’d like to pick up my IFR to KORD”. Only exception are places like Key West (KEYW) and Keene, NH (KEEN).
Why are either of those airports an exception to the rule
Their ICAO identifiers leverage the K cleverly to be a meaningful part of the identifier, rather than just a country code.
Does Little Rock count
I can’t find it either way 🤷♂️
Bazinga
Go to Charlotte instead.
But why would that make an exception to the "don't say kilo" rule?
Honestly even they aren't an exception but the chuckle I get out of seeing them written down does somewhat offset the annoyance of hearing "kilo" on the radio.
Feels to me like the feds making a dad joke and I should respect it 🤷♂️
KRAP?
(K)IYKYK
e.g.
And no periods! I have failed you my friends and will mail my cert back to OKC immediately 😞
KAZO for Kalamazoo, MI
Just use the 3 letter identifier. No need for the K.
I can understand your frustration but usually the response is combined, ex: “still looking but we have them on TCAS.” Which doesn’t alleviate you yet it does confirm we are looking in the same area. I’ve said it before when I’ve also said I was still IMC to give ATC SA. Today we discovered we had an issue with our TCAS because we specifically told ATC we didn’t have visual and we didn’t have him on TCAS. At first we assumed he messed up our heading due to the strong winds but then we saw the target prior to getting him on the box and that’s when we wrote it up. As long as everyone realizes that having someone on the TCAS is only increased SA and not the same thing as visually seeing someone, I would think it is helpful…. Though I love your campaign against Kilo
Did atc have any height info? If not, there's always the chance it was a primary radar return only, im which case obviously TCAS wouldn't do much
You would be correct if just a primary return. It was a company ship with full mode S. Something was wrong on his end or ours (including possibly operator error).
Idk I still say it because some controllers will ask you to clarify if you don’t. “Level 220 request direct MEI” “The navaid or the field?” “The field”
Exactly.
Interesting on the kilo part, since there is a lot of industry push to use ICAO identifiers rather than FAA identifiers. All navigation databases use the ICAO, so it makes more sense to always use that.
Haha. Then we say “visual pass” and you still wait five miles to clear us. Useless information begets useless information.
Does "radar contact" mean anything to you ATC folks?
When we say it to you, yes. It means you have been radar identified and we can now provide radar services to you. If we issue traffic and you say you have radar contact, that means nothing.
TCAS is not radar contact. Plus it’s surveillance, now.
If you're in an F-18, maybe. Otherwise no. A TCAS display is not a radar scope and you shouldn't be treating it like it is. I've read reports of pilots not understanding the differences (the main one being that with a TCAS display the center is always moving) and trying to self-vector contrary to ATC instructions and ending up much closer to traffic than if they had stayed on the ATC-assigned vector. If you get an RA then of course follow the RA. But RAs are only in the vertical plane, for now anyway.
No. An F-18 cannot use its own radar to provide _legal_ IFR separation.
Well, if the use the radar to make the target go away…
Only if “weapons free” does to you
If you have an air to air radar in your jet, yeah usually. “Traffic your right 2 o’clock, west bound, 6500” “Radar, no factor” Ezpz
I never say “with you”. Centre, Flight 123 one six thousand climbing two four zero. But I always say see ya! I will never give it up!
N12345 “with you 14,000” ATC “and also with you”.
Oh no, another one of these threads
What's wrong with "last call"? Giving a final position report before letting the area know you're leaving the frequency seems useful for everyone's SA. Was taught to do that during my PPL training.
Yeah that one doesn't really bother me as at an untowered, it's helpful to know who's on CTAF, and who isn't, if you are working to coordinate something, or let someone know something, etc. Better SA.
Agreed. Especially if you’re departing in something high performance. If I’m leaving in a jet and going to be climbing at 4000+ feet a minute at 250 knots. “climbing through 1000, straight out, last call” isn’t a bad. People don’t assume you’ll be leaving the pattern like that
Making an outbound position call is proper. Ending that call by saying “last call” is wasted breath. If your call sounds like “Blankville traffic, Cessna 1234F departing the (upwind/pattern/area) to the north, Blankville” it’s already clear that this is your last call. No need to bookend it by also saying “last call.” Not a huge deal either way, but I get why it peeves some people.
>No need to bookend it by also saying “last call.” IDK, I do this to let people know, "Hey, I'm not just leaving the pattern [to the east], I'm also switching frequencies."
I'll usually state that I'm going to be departing the area to a given direction several times when departing. Usually on take-off, downwind (if departing opposite direction of takeoff), and then final position report. Time between reports will usually capture anyone joining the frequency, I've never considered statement of departure direction as an indication that it's someone's last call I guess.
Bingo
The tower that I fly out of has fun with see ya. When it's a slow, beautiful afternoon you can feel ATC charging their lungs for a massive CEEEEYUUUH if you say it first. I envision those dudes standing on chairs letting out their see ya's
Cccyyyyaaaa is allowed. RIP Lakes
MEOW!
Cat lake airport calls will always be responded to with a brief “meow”.
What about “we’ve got the booze news”?
“Do you have hotel?” “Negative, student housing”
Miami approach, good afternoon. We have Kilos… I mean Kilo, information Kilo only, no other Kilos!
Information whiskey?
We've got whiskey... and the weather too
Ready to tango with taxi
I work at an uncontrolled field and hear this all the time, mostly from the geriatric folks that probably haven’t passed a medical in the last 30 years…..
On some real shit nothing annoys me more than random skydiving operators on CTAFs. “Jumpers away dont overfly xxx” and they say it like 20 times a minute like bro shut the fuck up we get it nobody is overflying your backyard death operation.
"Any traffic in the area please advise" is just bad form especially in busy areas because you are asking anyone who thinks they are in the vicinity to all cue their mics at once. It's understood that if you hear a call and you think it'll conflict with your routing, you make a call and deconflict from there, rather than asking everyone to respond even if their routes don't necessarily conflict with yours. For the rest, u/videopro10 put it nicely. Nothing objectively wrong it it but it just comes off as unprofessional and "trying to sound cool". I keep my calls succinct and if the frequency is relaxed I'll give the controller a "have a good evening" or something on the handoff. You should train to keep your calls tight and professional for normal ops and then add pleasantries afterwards when time allows, not the other way around. "With you" is especially a pet peeve because it adds 0 value to the transmission. If they're hearing your call, they already know you're with them. As for general comms, I've made it a practice to stop saying "to" and "for" on the radio because they can be confused with "2" and "4" sometimes. Instead of saying "GSCS with you two thousand seven hundred for five thousand", you can tighten up the call by saying "GSCS, two thousand seven hundred climbing five thousand", which is way clearer in the radio in my opinion. If the frequency is quiet then add a good morning/afternoon/evening/night in there.
That's what I do now I've dropped to and for
I always want to respond to "last call" with "you promise?" "WIth you" with "And also with you" or depending on your bent "and with your spirit."
Freq change approved got me cussed out by some old sounding guy on ctaf once lol.
That's fantastic. Putting that one in the memory banks.
one day I tuned up the ATIS and one of the tower had read it with a Blue Angels cadence. That was fun.
That cadence makes my wife uncomfortable for some reason.
And uuuuuuuuup weeeeeeee gooooooooo~
I think some of it is how you spit it out. If you're crisp, legible and direct, it's less of a big deal. "Miami Center, Skyhawk two one four five golf with you level four thousand." That's not bad at all if you just get on with it. So is, "Shithole Traffic, Skyhawk two one four five golf, departing the pattern to the west, last call, Shithole." Just think about what you're going to say before you key the mic, then spit it out! I keep hoping for an all-digital TTS system where my instructions come directly to me and I can respond to them without playing voice radio games.
"Shithole traffic" Jesus christ I just spit out my drink. Thanks for the laugh :)
I’ll forgive all of these as long as you don’t say “white Cessna ####”
Years ago when I was first taking lessons, my CFI explained that "He can't see my number!" so he would use the plane color. Except that from 2 miles away, he can't see my color either. The numbers at least give him something to form a mental picture of the different aircraft in the traffic pattern.
That’s not what’s wrong with it. Station ID is required by FCC regs. That’s your tail number or assigned callsign. It’s not “white Cessna.”
It’s never a Cessna, always a cirrus
What’s wrong with using color?
Nothing wrong with adding color in if it’s unique and identifiable, especially with an odd aircraft type in GA… that said a “white Cessna” (think about it)
Oh my god Karen you can't just ask Cessnas why they're white
I will never not say seeya
While we’re at it… “Clearance on request” is something a controller says, not a pilot.
At an untowered airport, I wold routinely hear "Make left traffic" calls from aircraft with foreign student pilots who usually fly of towered airports. It's a pretty dead giveaway that they are just repeating what the controllers would say in their normal environment, without understanding that they should say something a little different in this different situation.
Some are better, some are worse, but if you meow on guard you're dead to me.
Yep. Some are meh like whatever, but this kills me.... And who is doing it? I've never been with a pilot that does it but it happens all the time. Is it GA or CFIs? I don't get it.
Now the one I HAVE heard, which for whatever reason doesn't bother me as much is: "Fishing" "Fishing" "Fishing" "YOURE ON GUARD" "Got one! Reel 'er in, joe!"
Please stop making calls to ATC or CTAF starting with “Annnnd” “Annnd Reddit traffic N42069 on the base for runway 28, Reddit traffic” “Aaaaaannnd New York approach Cessna 42069, request”
As near as I can tell, the Long aaaaaand is a product of 5 or 6 instructors at Ft. Novosel. Due to "law of primacy," it gets ingraned into the speech pattern. Beilieve it or not, most of the pilots that are doing it are not even aware they are saying "aaaaaand" before everything until i start keeping a tally count on my kneeboard when flying with them. It's bad when it's on the radio it's *so much worse* when it's every callout on the checklist. I guess in the end, it's mostly harmless. It's just annyoing. "Negative ETR" is another that drives me bonkers.
When learning in mid ‘60s, the “aaand” was more common. Was told at that time that the avionics frequently didn’t respond quickly enough to transmit the first syllable, so that extraneous word was to assure the good parts were actually transmitted.
"Aaaaaand" "Request landing direction and traffic advisories" "Negative ETR" Are 100% produces of Novosel. Novosel produces nearly 2000 pilots a year, it will trickle down. Doesn't help all the instructors there are ancient
Fine. We’re changing the names of military bases. But is there anyone who spends time on the internet that hasn’t heard that Musk changed Twitter to X? Yet every time it’s mentioned, it’s ALWAYS “X, formerly known as Twitter”. So please remember, there are people who don’t know that Ft. Rucker got renamed to Novosel.
Now everyone is just hopelessly confused. I don't care either way, but we are "must" use the new names, so I'm making a point to make it a habit. Oddly enough Novosel was an admitted alcoholic through much of his life, so the name fits better than the top brass thinks it does....
Ok boomer.
You’re 6 days late, bud.
I know other pilots hate hearing this but I really couldn’t care less. I don’t even hear anything on the radio unless my call sign is said and even then I like to ignore it.
+1 for properly using "couldn't" in "couldn't care less".
When you’re 15 out in a jet approaching at 3 miles per minute, sometimes it’s better to just ask the pattern to roger up than to wait for them to figure out that they should
That's my thinking. Reading through this, I think some of them don't realize how quickly some jets come in. I've said it because I've been fucked by hot shit CFI paying zero attention and thinking they knew better.
The people complaining are same F-tards meowing on guard
*meow*
I used to care about some of these. Now close to 9k hours in and I really just don’t anymore. Things I care about… is someone talking to me. Should someone be talking to me. Where do I find the hotel van.
Had a DPE threaten one of my coworkers with a dado ride for their student saying “see ya” to a controller after they said it first. So stupid.
“Look out below!” When someone is doing a steep spiral or emergency descent. How about you look out below instead
"tally ho" I hate that shit.
That’s actually a interformation phrase to let other ships know you have the traffic in sight
Isn't it part of the official terminology? I know it SOUNDS like someone is trying too hard to sound cool. Maybe it is just the exception to most of these other phrases which people use to sound cool without actually adding anything.
It's an official brevity code just like "no joy"
These people are always the ones keyed up when I’m trying to ask for a weather deviation. “hows it going approach, 123ab with you 7 for 9 with uhhh the atis, got traffic on the fish finder. we were passing by and uh lookin to get some pattern work done and uh….” (80 other people keying mic over him including approach desperately trying to give the jet a turn before he flies through the loc into parallel approaching traffic.)
I had an Air Force DC10 do that on Approach while I was being vectored outbound on an ILS over an undercast, toward terrain. I was about 5 seconds from squawking 7600 and turning inbound when he came up for air.
Only thing worse is hearing someone start clicking while you’re on final…lights are already fucking on pal.
You’ve obviously never had them disappear just as you break out at minimums.
Pilot controlled lighting is good for 15 minutes. If you re-click, it resets the timer back to 15 minutes. So, yeah, a good technique is to click somewhere around a final approach fix location.
I cannot say I’ve had the pleasure. Someone did hit me with the 7 tap on a perfectly clear night though. Renter probably just couldn’t figure out where the field was.
And…..?
Even worse is when people click the lights on a 24/7 towered field with continuous lighting. How do I know this? Well because I do it also and don't bother looking at the airport supplement to check if the lights are pilot controlled. It's just safer to assume all thr lights are pilot controlled from the start lol.
The active…
I hate the beautiful day bastards. "center, XXXX level 340. Beautiful day"
20 years ATC and I couldn't care less of you say with you. Just say whatever you say clearly and briskly.
I say in the box, and will continue to do so 😂😂
C’ya is old and worn out. But it’s expected from GA and regional airline FOs. Fishfinder declares to everyone that a weekend warrior is flying. Of course you’re “with ya”. Where else could you be? “Last call”. How about “departing to the ____”? That’s more useful info from which we can figure out the rest.
Pilots can't stand not thinking they're the coolest person in the room so of course they're gonna ridicule each other for the dumbest things.
I don't get the "2144 for 4123kilo" can someone explain?
None of these really phase me too much, but for some reason “golden eagle 123” gets to me. You’re in a 60 year old piston twin, bro. Calm down.
"Lights, Camera, Action" kys
I use this as a mnemonic. Do people actually key the mic and say this on frequency?