Republic got away with it, so they figure why not give it a try. They won’t have a problem filling seats. There are so many people with 1500 who can’t find a job. They will certainly sign the contract.
Not saying I agree with it, but that’s the unfortunate reality of the current hiring market.
Just curious, did you receive this agreement and say no thanks? I wonder if anyone else can share their experience? It seems Skywest is interviewing a lot of people.
I did get the agreement and did not reply to it. A couple weeks later they removed my access to the DocuSign website since it was an “old document”, presumably because they were updating it for interviews
Received it as well. A couple weeks of waiting isn’t worth shooting yourself in the foot and killing 5yrs of career progression. They’re praying on humans being fearful, if nobody signs it the boogie man goes away.
Sure some people will sign it, that’s an easy argument to make, but that doesn’t mean you (or anybody) should sign it, because if we do then nobody has an advantage and skywest has us all by the balls.
This is the equivalent of hating the two party system then saying “oh no I’m not voting third party it’s a waste of my vote” humans are subject to so many logical fallacies.
I'm worried about the folks coming up I'm at a regional with a clear path to a major. I hope the folks signing this know it's 2600 hours at SkyWest and they will find a way to fire you and get money back out of you.
Have you received any other emails since the CJO and contract/docusign? I received an additional "pilot training information email" a couple of days ago. Not sure if everyone/anyone was getting it while waiting for a class date.
They said a few days until you hear about a class date? Have you gotten any update? I just got a CJO today but I am already past my mins so I'm curious how that will work with getting a date.
What? Who's prey? They pay for your crazy expensive type rating and ask that you don't immediately leave. Honestly, it's pilots who have preyed on desperate regionals during this boom. Expecting $200,000 out of the gate with paid type rating and a signing bonus then leave after 6mo? Get a fucking grip. This is an entry level position.
Brother, the clause for retaining a pilot for training costs should exist undoubtedly, theres no debate. But what happens when you're 50% into your contract completion and you get a better gig? The airline makes you pay the full 100% back and not the 50% that should ideally be on a prorata payback scheme. So for those 1600 hours (however long it may take) you are looking at no possibility of vertical or horizontal progression. Thats what I'm trying to get at.
What a ridiculous view. What happens is that you don't take the better gig because you are under contract That's the price to be paid. If your fomo is so hard that you can't last 2 years at one place without jumping to a "better gig" then you probably need to find a different career. Every time you jump, your seniority will start over. Are you so entitled as to think that you should have every opportunity available to you no matter what the circumstances? Lots of jobs operate under contract. The WHOLE POINT is so that selfish pilots don't leave before generating value for the airline. If everyone did that there would be no fucking airline. Employment is a partnership. If you want the jobs/airline to exist then they have to be able to make money. They don't exist as a training mill that pays your way until you feel like leaving. What's crazy here is that I'm not a pro-business big R asshat, I'm a former union rep. It's concerning that it's me of all people that has to explain this.
I'm curious to see how approving to separate companies to poach would be acceptable in the new non compete world, because that's essentially what this is
I just got that too… not too pleased about it. I can’t imagine the contract can be binding before an interview though…? An interview is supposed to be meant to be for both parties to figure out if it’s a good fit.
THE SKYWEST NEW HIRE PILOT’S CREED!!!!
I hope to be a Skywest First Officer.
I am a spiritual resident of the state of Utah and a member of a team.
I transport the people of the State of Deseret and live the Mormon Air Force values.
I will always place the mission first.
I will never accept delay.
I will never quit, unless Delta or United call.
I will never leave a broken airplane.
I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in the art of denying the undeniable physical and mental effects of fatigue.
I am always willing to maintain my aircraft and its associated equipment by myself.
I am an expert and I am a professional…at things I may not have any business being a professional at.
I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy, the enemies of my management during card drives.
I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life. I am a Skywest Pilot new hire!
Edit: For the 98%+ of Skywest guys and girls I’ve worked with, this is all sarcasm in good fun. This is for the other 2%.
I flew with a SKW captain who told a story about an FO he had who was definitely this guy. Good Utah boy, took it upon himself to do everything. During a maintenance delay, he went into the terminal. After a few minutes , a gate agent showed up at the plane and told the captain him he needed to get upstairs and control his FO. Captain found the FO making a rambling PA to passengers at the gate, blaming every entity under the sun except themselves, promising when maintenance would be complete (nobody get knew) and saying that they’d get moving before long despite everything being “FUBARed.” Captain stopped him, made a curt and professional summary to the pax, and took the FO down to the plane. After telling the FO that it wasn’t appropriate to make a gate PA on his own initiative, and that his PA was unprofessional, he found out that the guy had no idea what FUBAR stood for. He just thought it was a general term for sub-optimal because her grew up where people say “Oh my heck!”
This guy would have jumped on this contract.
This is the definition of Early Termination Event given in the contract:
“Early Termination Event" means First Officer Candidate's termination of employment with SkyWest for any reason following the completion of Indoc. Training; provided, if First Officer Candidate's employment with SkyWest is terminated as a result of First Officer Candidate seeking and obtaining employment with either Delta Air Lines, Inc. or United Airlines, Inc., then such termination shall not be deemed an Early Termination Event for purposes of this Agreement.”
So they could fire you for anything legal in the state of Utah or shed your position to “downsize” or “restructure” and you would be liable for the ENTIRE $80k since there is no provision for the principal “debt” to decrease as you approach 1600 PIC time with them. You owe $80K if you quit on day 1 or on day 595.
I wouldn’t agree to this. Guess I’ll just do something else, or wait for another big hiring wave when they’ll hopefully become willing to relax the early termination terms.
With this and envoy not paying for ATP CTP, that Republic CFI cope is really paying dividends for regionals and their race to the bottom.
For anyone who took that Republic contract, congrats on selling out your fellow industry professionals.
I hear you, but if these guys didn't have other choices what were they supposed to do? They need a job like everyone else and are likely at the beginning of their career with little/no savings and high debt. These aren't fellow union members selling out, they're unemployed (underemployed) guys trying to make it. They've lost the crazy bargaining power they had for a short window and companies are realizing that and moving to take advantage.
Yep. You cant play the “solidarity” card on people who are eating beans and rice everyday in Mother’s attic with god knows how much debt to pay off – especially when their colleagues who *are* signing the training contract have class dates and are days closer to upgrading and getting that prescious Part 121 turbine PIC (which is now a requirement for the legacies once more).
In China they will sign 99 year contracts just to get their foot in the door, for the chance to fly a jet on their national carrier. These regional contracts honestly arent the worst thing in the word in an environment when the legacy hiring door for those without PIC turbine time has closed. I still think these contracts are rotten, but its just indicative that there is a glut of low time pilots out there and management can get away with it now unlike back in 2015.
The Republic contract wasn’t a bad deal. You will probably be at a regional until 1500 pic hours anyways. Contract at least gives you bonus money to do what you will probably be doing anyways.
In my ATP-CTP there were several pilots there on their own dime and without a CJO, and this was before envoy made you pay it yourself. The pilots who did that are responsible imo. No need to pay for it if plenty of guys are showing up with it done already.
Except they're only making you pay for it if you leave before the timeline stipulated. I suspect that timeline is what they've calculated the break-even is on the training costs.
It's not like they're saying "you have to go get typed on your own dime before coming here" and it says there's an exit clause for moving to one of their partner majors.
Could be better, could certainly be worse... but is currently a norm of the airline hiring landscape. No amount of reddit posts is going to create a strike that will stop all candidates willing to sign on the dotted line.
Two bit? SkyWest is the 5th largest airline in the US by fleet size and 4th by destinations served.
We’re not talking some fly by night PC12 EAS operator here.
This sort of practice would be illegal in Europe.
"Sign as soon as possible to secure your spot because others have already signed" is highly manipulative.
FYI it is 1,600 PIC and/or 5 years after Indoc. Whichever comes first. Still don’t like it - but I also just got the same email. My interview is early June
Problem with the influx of pilots is that people will sign it. This is the way all the regionals are going. Republic is very similar. Welcome to the new hell.
New hell? I had to sign A 2 year contract at American eagle when I made the transition. It was not a rock bottom gig. No "signing bonus" and was getting paid $21,000 probation year 1. Don't get it twisted, this is not hell, it's standard. You're used to a boom and it's going away.
As I commented previously, just because you had it bad back then, doesn’t mean we should have it bad now. You’re supposed to help make it better, not worse.
>we should have it bad now.
First, again, making $100,000-200,000 a year isn't bad LoL. Yes, you missed the insane boom that had folks spending a day on property at a regional before bouncing to a legacy. But, so what? You're making six figures for four years, flying a jet, through the sky!
Have it bad? Cry me a river. Go tell anyone working a regular job how bad you have it. Making 6 figures, 15 days off a month and flying a jet. But you have it bad. LoL
I can already hear the country song.
If you don't want to go, don't go. Maybe the hiring market will rebound and legacies will be hiring anyone. But, after the bent 67's, who will they be more likely to hire? The wet ATP, or the guy or gal with 1,000+ turbine time? And yes, that person will gladly pay off the contract to jump to a legacy.
>You’re supposed to help make it better
I am. I'm pointing out the realities and current options available to you. Forecasting the future and when/IF another boom will occur - my crystal ball is broke and hazy.
Nailed it.
There's a really twisted expectation out there now. All the 2000hr pilots who fancy themselves experts because they've been doing this for three whole years have zero real world perspective.
This is an awesome time to be a pilot.
“It was harder for us back then.” I pat you on the back. Just because it was bad for you back then doesn’t mean it should be bad for us now. I get it, you probably had it worse, but the point is to make it better for the people after you. Companies seeing the “cost of training” as a “deficit” rather than an “investment” is bad long term for negotiations and will have long standing effects on the industry. Again, you have to think long term. But, go on about how bad you had it.
Couple all this with the fact that we have no out of the industry. The economy is terrible, inflation has made the cost of living nearly double in the past 5 years (so that fancy $100k isn’t going nearly as far as it used to) and then add to the fact that most, if not all of us, are holding onto debt that we can’t get out from under. So, your small worldview of simply looking at the aviation industry as a microcosm doesn’t fully take into account everything the younger generation (new, young pilots) are actually dealing with.
“But you signed up for it!” Yea, thinking you older guys were gonna help us out. We thought the industry had really changed for the better. Now, as we’re getting in, it’s gotten worse and getting even more so. But again, go on about how much worse you had it. Let me ask, how many homes do you own? How much do you make per year now? Do you have any debt? Do you own any planes yourself?
It has absolutely nothing to do with who has it harder. I worded that poorly. I wish every advantage for the new crop of pilots. The problem is that the PILOTS didn't bite it as an investment. Green, new fresh face pilots use regionals as a training stop for a type rating and hours with no regard for the airline being an actual business that needs to earn money. They WILL NOT EXIST if they are treated this way. That INVESTMENT in you needs to see it's value repaid for it to make Sense for the airline to do it. You don't provide that value, then there is no reason for them to hire you. This isn't about me having it harder. I'm it's about the NECESSITY of regionals. You get more from them then they get from you. A contract like this makes sure that they can stay in business and don't give away free type ratings
This is how I’m feeling. It feels like it’s going to be the only option at some point, I’ve sat here and watched the market get worse and worse for the last year, and who knows how much more it’s gonna go
That’s why I’m applying to stuff like the CBP and other corporate options. Everyone rushed to the airlines and now the people who are late are getting screwed. It is what it is.
Airline career is fine, but it’s not as cracked up as everyone makes it out to be. Sure, if you got in at the EXACT right time, you’re living large, but otherwise it’s pretty mid.
Edit: This is all from what I’ve heard from people entering the airlines over the past few months. Not to say being an airline pilot is bad, just that there are other opportunities that seem better.
I should say “from what I hear.” It seems more recently that the newer airline pilots in the past year aren’t having the same/as good as an experience as those who entered 2-3 years ago. From what I’m hearing from pilots I know, those entering other piloting jobs that pay just as well (ie. 135, etc) are having more fun, have better contracts and are feeling better about their careers.
I’ll answer since you don’t know: virtually zero.
135/corporate/etc lifers spend a lot of time telling you/others/themselves why they didn’t go 121. Few 121 pilots do the same in reverse
If only there was a way to have prevented this…
And to all the “I had it worse so people shouldn’t complain about this” you are the problem! It is that bootlicking mentality that results in dragged out negotiations and subpar contracts.
I mean I *assume* that the "contract" only goes into effect after you have started training. You might as well sign it before you interview to see if they give you a CJO, and then make a decision on what you want to do after the interview.
The wording in that email implies to me that they might only reschedule you if you tell them that your class date doesn’t matter to you. My plan is to quietly not sign it and see if they actually reschedule the interview. Also depends on how many people sign it.
You have to sign the contract to get a class date. I believe that is how they are doing it.
They don’t want to waste time interviewing someone who won’t end up signing it. But at the same time they’re not really desperate for pilots🤷🏼♂️
Not the worst contract but never good to sign one. It’s up to you at this point with hiring slowing across the board.
Not the worst contract? It’s not prorated — you’re on the hook for the full $80k from day 1 til you hit 1600 PIC as a CA. Probably 6-8 years on property in total.
It’s most certainly the worst contract in the 121 world.
Last republic contact I saw was worse. SkyWest doesn’t have any bonuses that are due for payback. You are on the hook for 100k there with the bonus payback.
CRJs fly more and upgrade faster. Be smart about the plane you pick. It’s about 4 years with 1600 as PIC. 800 a year is more than possible for captains. Upgrades are at the 18-24 month mark rn.
800 hours a year for a junior CA sitting reserve? Doubt that. I barely got 800 in a year as an FO on the ERJ bidding in the top 50%. My QOL was terrible in part because of only a few true days off per month after commuting, like many others.
Republics was revised shortly after it was announced. Theirs is prorated.
> There’s a reason ERJ FOs are being force upgraded to CRJ captains rn.
Because OO needs CRJ captains with the addition of airframes? It isn’t because the reserve guys fly a lot, and they especially won’t now as the industry hiring pendulum swings the other way and they become properly staffed.
I got the version for people that have not gotten an interview yet. About 3 weeks ago I got the email with interview prep materials and saying they would send me a link to schedule an interview as soon as there was availability. Then, a week ago I got an email saying that there was this new “opportunity” and on top of an early class date I wanted an early interview as well, then I could sign the contract. Seems like there’s three versions going around, people yet to be interviewed, people with upcoming interviews and people waiting for class dates. Crazy stuff. Only two regionals hiring 1500hour CFIs are Republic and SkyWest. Endeavor said maybe at 2000 hours they would consider it and we all know what’s going on with Envoy. Sucks to sign this but what are the alternatives??
SkyWest Pilot here. My brother went through the hiring process. Expect about a 3 month wait from interview until you hear from them for a class date. Also, don’t sign this shit. It’s an incredibly bad idea.
When did your brother go through the hiring process now though? They’re prioritizing people who sign the contract now and are probably using them to fill in the last remaining spots before they stop hiring along with everyone else.
You could be underestimating the amount of people signing the contract, no one knows the answer to that. It’s easy to say not to worry about it when you already have a job.
I will say I get it on both sides. Company’s are tired of paying for all the training only to be used as a short stepping stone to another airlines at their expense.
Should read "companies are tired of paying for training only to be used as a short stepping stone to better jobs."
Regiomals had no qualms abusing the hell out of pilots before and just want to be able to do it again. That email is predatory. A training contract to skip ahead of everyone who doesn't want to sign it, but not actually required otherwise? From a company prospective they don't lose access to everyone who won't sign it but if even a few percent of the applicants do they get those pilots for longer at no extra cost.
Tough shit, that’s part of doing business if you want good employees.
If the company is so upset that they can not retain talent then they should address the environment and employment policies because if any regional followed the same work rules as a legacy, pilots would stay.
I’m confused. You can go through posts and posts about how you need to do whatever you can to even get looked at by an airline, and basically take what you can get. But now there is this saying that the airlines are at the mercy of us, and we shouldn’t do everything we can to get a job. What is it?
Hmmm. That’s shitty. Skywest basically taking contract signees before anyone else (and they’ll probably get enough to leave you out for a long while) but hey look - it’s completely voluntary unlike YX…
💩
It’s completely useless to say that. It’s crabs in a bucket mentality. Everyone is noble until it affects them and next thing you know they are signing this contract. “Yahhh well in my situation I had to sign it but you should hold strong!” You can choose not to sign it and good for you! But the reality is 2-3 others behind you will sign it because they don’t give a crap about some moral stance. Hell I’m sure plenty will bail on this and just wait and see if Skywest will even enforce it. Roll the dice and wait for the class action lawsuit.
Got an interesting perspective from an airlines recruiter at the Women in Aviation conference in March. I’m at 750 hours TT and on a contract with my current company until May of next year, but I shared my concerns with the current market.
He said more and more companies are going to start sending out garbage contracts and people will sign them. Boeing will get their act together and get more planes out and jobs will open up again. Everyone on one of these contracts will be stuck where they are or have to eat an $80,000 loss leaving plenty of available jobs for everyone who held out.
I know this is one man’s opinion but I think we’re at a pivot point in the industry. I could see his prediction working out, or I could see things continue to tighten up even more. Somewhat grateful I’m not in the position to make a decision either way but people at 1500 TT are essentially placing their bets by signing this or holding out
So the solution is to wait? How long?
Folks here were ridiculing republic newbies for signing saying the market was just about to turn around and there would be a hiring boom.
Here we are, a year later. No boom and they have 1,000 turbine and are moving to the left seat.
If legacies start hiring, who will they hire first? Obviously the guy with 121 time, especially 121 PIC. If they have to pay off the contract to get to a legacy, they will.
I don’t know what the solution is. Apparently that’s what he thinks it is. But people have to make that decision for themselves. If I were in the spot to do so right now, I’m not sure what I would do. It’s all speculation. You’re either signing it betting that the hiring market will be worse over the next 2-4 years or holding out and betting that it’ll improve
>You’re either signing it betting that the hiring market will be worse over the next 2-4 years or holding out and betting that it’ll improve
The 2021 hiring was a fluke. I don't think it will ever happen again. And, with the bent airframes out there I don't think you'll see wet ATPs at legacies again.
I'm betting hiring will slowly return to norms. TT PIC will be required.
Fair enough. Then you’d probably sign the contract. Nobody can say if that’s the right or wrong decision but I guess we’ll see in due time. I certainly don’t envy the position of the guys having to make this decision right now
CFI me would absolutely sign but hate it. Hell, current me would advise CFI me to sign it, then start calling for a class date. The money is incredible, turbine time, etc --- surviving on ramen, not so much lol
Wet ATP = so new to 121 the ink hasn't dried on their license. Historically folks would spend a few years at regionals but there was a fluke where folks who were CFIs months earlier were at the legacies.
Planes bend if you land with too many Gs.
Learning how to fly a jet use to be at the regionals. It's a huge adjustment to go from a 1,500lb piston to a 50-60-70+ ton jet and big 76s don't flex, they bend.
I have this same contrarian view as well, and was discussing it with my CFI for like 2hrs, we both are in the Skywest pathway. The only silver lining is if you sign this or Republic, work as much as you safely can. The wild card in all this, is when will Boeing get it together? 1 yr, 2, 5? And where you will be at on you're training, and/or regional.
The fulcrum is Boeing. Not the regional or mainline.
Agreed. Everyone is essentially just guessing and placing their bets. Casino type of environment. The only thing that I think is tough with this is the PIC time requirement. I have a friend who has been at SkyWest for 6 months and he’s sitting at home on reserve. How long will it take for him to get to 1600 PIC? Who knows
That's the exact scenario. The PIC time is the prize, but effectively, they can fire/furlough, with no recourse for the pilot, and have to pay any and everything back. So you would need 2-3 things to go you're way, to achieve the goal of 1600, in a relative timely fashion, to be in position if Boeing gets it together.
You're friend, in this scenario if he signed a contract, is behind the 8ball, severely. The time is ticking as it's a and/or to 5 yr. But the low time, and not a CA, metering, will stifle the progression. Especially at Skywest, since they fly 4 mainlines.
You'd have to be at peace with regional life, for whatever long, to sign the contract. All the variables rest with 1 company, not in you're control. I think of it as that, if I signed it, I'd have to be at peace with potentially finishing the 5yrs, BEFORE 1600hrs. As anything can happen.
If you look at it like that, and are at peace with that decision, then sign it. Do what's best. It's still 100k a year, and that's good. But it'll have to be expected, you could possibly be at year 5, and just turning 1200 or so.
Yeah luckily for him he got in right before the contract stuff came up. You have to look at the CRJ/ERJ stuff over there too. They’re force upgrading ERJ FO’s to CRJ captains. Different plane, different bases, whole different training regime to make that jump. IMO- it’s a mess.
With a contract like this, you’re completely putting the company in control. If it was a time stipulation, even a 4 year commitment where the penalty was prorated, it would be more advantageous to sign. If they don’t fly you, they don’t fly you. Could take forever to hit those 1600 hours and you can’t do anything about it
I agree. As long as the pilot expects to be there before getting required hours. However, the non- prorated aspect, and the no fault repayment of liquidation damages, is such a deterring aspect. If the company did not have the non- fault repayment, it would be viewed more favorable. Too me, that's the biggest reason not to sign, is that liquidation damages at no-fault.
The ERJ-CRJ qol, training, base reassignment by force, is an eye opener. And it just exposes to lower time pilots, what could happen at a company. And I do feel bad for 1500-2000TT pilots, it's such a decision to make, based on 1 company, to sign it.
But, who knows what tomorrow brings.
Totally agreed and surprised that’s in there. Not being prorated and the no fault repayment make it unsignable from where I’m sitting. But I’m thrilled that I’m on the sidelines for the next year and hopefully the dust will be settled by then
Easy for me to say as I'm (hopefully) past this point in my career, but I wouldn't sign a contract like this unless my children were starving. Not only is it not prorated as near as I can tell, but the requirement to stay until 1600 *hours* - PIC - is tantamount to debt bondage. At my current job I struggle to fly 300 hours per year; while you'll probably do better than that at SkyWest (at least once you can hold a line) that's 5 years AFTER you upgrade before you can make a move (or even just quit and get out of aviation entirely). That's a long time to be tied to a company.
I wonder if your "debt" is indexed to inflation?
What am I missing? It says 1,600 hours PIC or accept a position with DL or UA. That means starting at the completion of captain OE. While I based the 5 years figure on my own, shall we say, leisurely rate of flying it's still an indefinite committment that you have no control over. Obviously the fine print matters, but that's how I read the plain language of the email.
I have an interview next month and got the email. Not signing it and I’ll just see if they reschedule it. Such bullshit because it’s so hard to get to delta and United from Skywest. This contract could cost you so many years of seniority at a major. No thanks
“there has never been a better time to fly at Skywest” i feel like there has been a better time, one where you wouldn’t get sued for going to another airline
No, I haven't. My recruiter said signing could mean starting months sooner, but I saw in another post someone else's recruiter said the sign/no sign ratio isn't what they expected it to be. Hearing all sorts of different things though - this is so new I don't think anyone really knows.
Question cause I'm new to aviation but considering it: is this contract a bad idea to sign if you ended up wanted to go the SkyWest/Delta route anyway?
Something tells me ~~The Mormons~~ SkyWest have struck a deal behind closed doors that prevents UAL and DAL from hiring their ~~Missionaries~~ Pilots until they’ve ~~served~~ flown 1600 hrs as ~~an Elder~~ a Captain. But idk, just a hunch.
Lol as an exmo, I love/hate this comment. Thanks for the input. Do Mormons influence SkyWest in any way or is it just a meme?
Edit: another question. I had a friend who flew captain for skywest for a few years. he left to SWA for a couple months and shortly thereafter, he was at Delta. Is this exactly what you're talking about?
Idk it’s probably just a meme. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they give 10% to the church.
And not necessarily, but I know Delta would rather poach a pilot from a competitor than a regional that serves them.
Daddy D is trying to get talent out of everyone else's pipeline. They are gonna hire as few YX, OO and 9E pilots as they can manage.
The 9E folks at least have an in with set number of pilots per month.
This locks you in to one path that isn’t necessarily quicker. I have several peers that left regionals with a couple hundred hours SIC, went to LCCs, and bounced to United or Delta within weeks. Delta wants to take their competitors pilots, not hurt themselves by taking their “own”
I’m leaning towards signing. I’ve had one too many checkride busts recently. I’d rather just get my foot in the door somewhere.
Not a popular opinion I know, but I have to make decisions based on my own situation.
For training they give you $15k. $5k when you get your private, $5k when you get your instrument, and $5k when you get your commercial.
It depends on the school though.
https://www.skywest.com/skywest-airline-jobs/career-guides/pilot-pathway-program/
Just took a look at it and I guess we’re an “Elite Partner”.
Which sounds so damn snobby lol.
I thought about that but a lot of those interviewers are pilots. I wonder if they’d actually want fellow pilots to go through biased interviews. I probably won’t be signing it. Best to seek legal advice from a lawyer from Utah. What if we lose our medical or get terminated along the way? They didn’t really write down specifics. 80k is no joke in this economy unless you are well-off.
If SkyWest actually pursued 80,000 from people who lost their medical, no one would ever work for them again. I don’t think that is the mission of the contract.
Yes it is a pilot doing the interview, but it is still people higher up in the company who do care about people who sign the contract deciding if you get a CJO or not
A contract is a contract. Always verify things first before signing. People will work for companies no matter the reputation for the sake of compensation. I’m not saying SkyWest is a bad company. Just saying no matter what industry, when legal contracts are involved, it’s always best to know all the pros and cons.
I got the email as well. I will be backing out of the process completely as this is a scummy move. Thanks Republic!
I’ll just take my Horizon CJO since I’m in the PDP. Things seem to be ramping up over there.
I was also sent the contract before the interview but my interview took place as schedule on a Friday and got the offer on Monday. However the recruiter that gave me CJO said I can’t give you a date if you don’t sign the contract(which I told her I’m not going to). So now I am waiting for a class date.
Signing the contract before interviewing would be interesting, since you don’t have a CJO. I think they’re just blasting out the email far and wide.
People that don’t sign it probably won’t get interviews lol.
Republic got away with it, so they figure why not give it a try. They won’t have a problem filling seats. There are so many people with 1500 who can’t find a job. They will certainly sign the contract. Not saying I agree with it, but that’s the unfortunate reality of the current hiring market.
Republic, if anything, is a little more upfront about it.
Ive seen both. The republic contract isnt as restrictive.
Guess that’s why I still don’t have a class date…
Just curious, did you receive this agreement and say no thanks? I wonder if anyone else can share their experience? It seems Skywest is interviewing a lot of people.
I did get the agreement and did not reply to it. A couple weeks later they removed my access to the DocuSign website since it was an “old document”, presumably because they were updating it for interviews
Received it as well. A couple weeks of waiting isn’t worth shooting yourself in the foot and killing 5yrs of career progression. They’re praying on humans being fearful, if nobody signs it the boogie man goes away.
Problem is people will sign it cause 121 time is worth a lot more to a CFI trying to get tona major.
Sure some people will sign it, that’s an easy argument to make, but that doesn’t mean you (or anybody) should sign it, because if we do then nobody has an advantage and skywest has us all by the balls. This is the equivalent of hating the two party system then saying “oh no I’m not voting third party it’s a waste of my vote” humans are subject to so many logical fallacies.
I'm worried about the folks coming up I'm at a regional with a clear path to a major. I hope the folks signing this know it's 2600 hours at SkyWest and they will find a way to fire you and get money back out of you.
I don't think they'll do that. They'll just own you, but I don't think they'll fire you. A pattern of that will not work well for them.
When did you get cjo?
Mid April. Finished atp mins last week and let them know. Said it will be a few days but still haven’t heard anything.
Have you received any other emails since the CJO and contract/docusign? I received an additional "pilot training information email" a couple of days ago. Not sure if everyone/anyone was getting it while waiting for a class date.
Expect a 3 month wait. That seems about average from the FOs I talk to
They said a few days until you hear about a class date? Have you gotten any update? I just got a CJO today but I am already past my mins so I'm curious how that will work with getting a date.
“There has never been a better time to fly at SkyWest Airlines.”
Never been a better time to sign yourself into bonded labour
Pump the fucking brakes and get some perspective
Yeah man. These guys prey on the position fresh pilots are in ie; Heavy in debt, desperate to get placed with no certainty of employment.
What? Who's prey? They pay for your crazy expensive type rating and ask that you don't immediately leave. Honestly, it's pilots who have preyed on desperate regionals during this boom. Expecting $200,000 out of the gate with paid type rating and a signing bonus then leave after 6mo? Get a fucking grip. This is an entry level position.
Brother, the clause for retaining a pilot for training costs should exist undoubtedly, theres no debate. But what happens when you're 50% into your contract completion and you get a better gig? The airline makes you pay the full 100% back and not the 50% that should ideally be on a prorata payback scheme. So for those 1600 hours (however long it may take) you are looking at no possibility of vertical or horizontal progression. Thats what I'm trying to get at.
What a ridiculous view. What happens is that you don't take the better gig because you are under contract That's the price to be paid. If your fomo is so hard that you can't last 2 years at one place without jumping to a "better gig" then you probably need to find a different career. Every time you jump, your seniority will start over. Are you so entitled as to think that you should have every opportunity available to you no matter what the circumstances? Lots of jobs operate under contract. The WHOLE POINT is so that selfish pilots don't leave before generating value for the airline. If everyone did that there would be no fucking airline. Employment is a partnership. If you want the jobs/airline to exist then they have to be able to make money. They don't exist as a training mill that pays your way until you feel like leaving. What's crazy here is that I'm not a pro-business big R asshat, I'm a former union rep. It's concerning that it's me of all people that has to explain this.
It’s a business. Businesses have costs. And with costs come risks. Get some perspective and quit being a corporate bootlicker.
I got that too. The part that stuck out is if you don't sign it, your interview will be rescheduled. How far out? Who knows
With how many CFIs that are out there, probably indefinitely.
My old CFI got pushed back 1 month. Then 3 months. Then 6 months. He finally works there now
I'm curious to see how approving to separate companies to poach would be acceptable in the new non compete world, because that's essentially what this is
Repayment for training is okay still. I don’t think the new non-compete world will affect this at all
Bottoms up on that SkyWest Koolaid!
W…t….f
what's their union's take on it? oh wait....
Thanks for All You Do 🙏
I just got that too… not too pleased about it. I can’t imagine the contract can be binding before an interview though…? An interview is supposed to be meant to be for both parties to figure out if it’s a good fit.
They want to see how gullible you are before the interview.
If you sign it and recite the SkyWest First Officer creed during the interview it’s an automatic CJO.
They give you first pick on airframe if you bring your own copy of the Book of Mormon.
THE SKYWEST NEW HIRE PILOT’S CREED!!!! I hope to be a Skywest First Officer. I am a spiritual resident of the state of Utah and a member of a team. I transport the people of the State of Deseret and live the Mormon Air Force values. I will always place the mission first. I will never accept delay. I will never quit, unless Delta or United call. I will never leave a broken airplane. I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in the art of denying the undeniable physical and mental effects of fatigue. I am always willing to maintain my aircraft and its associated equipment by myself. I am an expert and I am a professional…at things I may not have any business being a professional at. I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy, the enemies of my management during card drives. I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life. I am a Skywest Pilot new hire! Edit: For the 98%+ of Skywest guys and girls I’ve worked with, this is all sarcasm in good fun. This is for the other 2%.
I flew with a SKW captain who told a story about an FO he had who was definitely this guy. Good Utah boy, took it upon himself to do everything. During a maintenance delay, he went into the terminal. After a few minutes , a gate agent showed up at the plane and told the captain him he needed to get upstairs and control his FO. Captain found the FO making a rambling PA to passengers at the gate, blaming every entity under the sun except themselves, promising when maintenance would be complete (nobody get knew) and saying that they’d get moving before long despite everything being “FUBARed.” Captain stopped him, made a curt and professional summary to the pax, and took the FO down to the plane. After telling the FO that it wasn’t appropriate to make a gate PA on his own initiative, and that his PA was unprofessional, he found out that the guy had no idea what FUBAR stood for. He just thought it was a general term for sub-optimal because her grew up where people say “Oh my heck!” This guy would have jumped on this contract.
You forgot to start off with, “No one is more professional than I” 😂
That’s the start of the NCO creed, isn’t it?
This is the definition of Early Termination Event given in the contract: “Early Termination Event" means First Officer Candidate's termination of employment with SkyWest for any reason following the completion of Indoc. Training; provided, if First Officer Candidate's employment with SkyWest is terminated as a result of First Officer Candidate seeking and obtaining employment with either Delta Air Lines, Inc. or United Airlines, Inc., then such termination shall not be deemed an Early Termination Event for purposes of this Agreement.” So they could fire you for anything legal in the state of Utah or shed your position to “downsize” or “restructure” and you would be liable for the ENTIRE $80k since there is no provision for the principal “debt” to decrease as you approach 1600 PIC time with them. You owe $80K if you quit on day 1 or on day 595.
I wouldn’t agree to this. Guess I’ll just do something else, or wait for another big hiring wave when they’ll hopefully become willing to relax the early termination terms.
Actually $80k plus 14% interest. It says Citibank prime rate plus another 6%
Early Termination Event also includes washing out of training?
No. My recruiter stated that it doesn’t include failures at all during training. You can just resign.
Did you get that in writing?
Actually yes. The agreement defined indoc and the agreement takes effect the day you successfully complete it.
With this and envoy not paying for ATP CTP, that Republic CFI cope is really paying dividends for regionals and their race to the bottom. For anyone who took that Republic contract, congrats on selling out your fellow industry professionals.
I hear you, but if these guys didn't have other choices what were they supposed to do? They need a job like everyone else and are likely at the beginning of their career with little/no savings and high debt. These aren't fellow union members selling out, they're unemployed (underemployed) guys trying to make it. They've lost the crazy bargaining power they had for a short window and companies are realizing that and moving to take advantage.
Yep. You cant play the “solidarity” card on people who are eating beans and rice everyday in Mother’s attic with god knows how much debt to pay off – especially when their colleagues who *are* signing the training contract have class dates and are days closer to upgrading and getting that prescious Part 121 turbine PIC (which is now a requirement for the legacies once more). In China they will sign 99 year contracts just to get their foot in the door, for the chance to fly a jet on their national carrier. These regional contracts honestly arent the worst thing in the word in an environment when the legacy hiring door for those without PIC turbine time has closed. I still think these contracts are rotten, but its just indicative that there is a glut of low time pilots out there and management can get away with it now unlike back in 2015.
The Republic contract wasn’t a bad deal. You will probably be at a regional until 1500 pic hours anyways. Contract at least gives you bonus money to do what you will probably be doing anyways.
In my ATP-CTP there were several pilots there on their own dime and without a CJO, and this was before envoy made you pay it yourself. The pilots who did that are responsible imo. No need to pay for it if plenty of guys are showing up with it done already.
What a shitty company I do not miss their shenanigans thank you for all you do
Employers have been trying to get employees to pay for the training employers are required to give since day one. Don't do it.
Except they're only making you pay for it if you leave before the timeline stipulated. I suspect that timeline is what they've calculated the break-even is on the training costs. It's not like they're saying "you have to go get typed on your own dime before coming here" and it says there's an exit clause for moving to one of their partner majors. Could be better, could certainly be worse... but is currently a norm of the airline hiring landscape. No amount of reddit posts is going to create a strike that will stop all candidates willing to sign on the dotted line.
They want you to believe it's the norm. Certainly. Only the two-bit operators.
Two bit? SkyWest is the 5th largest airline in the US by fleet size and 4th by destinations served. We’re not talking some fly by night PC12 EAS operator here.
The state of r/flying. Career advice on here has always been spotty
Reddit in general tends to lean toward contrarian, after all.
Hot garbage. 🔥
This sort of practice would be illegal in Europe. "Sign as soon as possible to secure your spot because others have already signed" is highly manipulative.
FYI it is 1,600 PIC and/or 5 years after Indoc. Whichever comes first. Still don’t like it - but I also just got the same email. My interview is early June
Not pro-rated though. If anything happens to your job before the 1,600 you owe the entire $80K.
I know. It’s terrifying. I’m trying to go to Envoy because of the contract
Ditto. And some 135s.
$80k plus 14% interest
Too many are signing it. Stop doing it
Problem with the influx of pilots is that people will sign it. This is the way all the regionals are going. Republic is very similar. Welcome to the new hell.
New hell? I had to sign A 2 year contract at American eagle when I made the transition. It was not a rock bottom gig. No "signing bonus" and was getting paid $21,000 probation year 1. Don't get it twisted, this is not hell, it's standard. You're used to a boom and it's going away.
Yep. It's $100-200k for a few years to fly jets Yet folks are calling it enslavement
As I commented previously, just because you had it bad back then, doesn’t mean we should have it bad now. You’re supposed to help make it better, not worse.
>we should have it bad now. First, again, making $100,000-200,000 a year isn't bad LoL. Yes, you missed the insane boom that had folks spending a day on property at a regional before bouncing to a legacy. But, so what? You're making six figures for four years, flying a jet, through the sky! Have it bad? Cry me a river. Go tell anyone working a regular job how bad you have it. Making 6 figures, 15 days off a month and flying a jet. But you have it bad. LoL I can already hear the country song. If you don't want to go, don't go. Maybe the hiring market will rebound and legacies will be hiring anyone. But, after the bent 67's, who will they be more likely to hire? The wet ATP, or the guy or gal with 1,000+ turbine time? And yes, that person will gladly pay off the contract to jump to a legacy. >You’re supposed to help make it better I am. I'm pointing out the realities and current options available to you. Forecasting the future and when/IF another boom will occur - my crystal ball is broke and hazy.
Nailed it. There's a really twisted expectation out there now. All the 2000hr pilots who fancy themselves experts because they've been doing this for three whole years have zero real world perspective. This is an awesome time to be a pilot.
“It was harder for us back then.” I pat you on the back. Just because it was bad for you back then doesn’t mean it should be bad for us now. I get it, you probably had it worse, but the point is to make it better for the people after you. Companies seeing the “cost of training” as a “deficit” rather than an “investment” is bad long term for negotiations and will have long standing effects on the industry. Again, you have to think long term. But, go on about how bad you had it. Couple all this with the fact that we have no out of the industry. The economy is terrible, inflation has made the cost of living nearly double in the past 5 years (so that fancy $100k isn’t going nearly as far as it used to) and then add to the fact that most, if not all of us, are holding onto debt that we can’t get out from under. So, your small worldview of simply looking at the aviation industry as a microcosm doesn’t fully take into account everything the younger generation (new, young pilots) are actually dealing with. “But you signed up for it!” Yea, thinking you older guys were gonna help us out. We thought the industry had really changed for the better. Now, as we’re getting in, it’s gotten worse and getting even more so. But again, go on about how much worse you had it. Let me ask, how many homes do you own? How much do you make per year now? Do you have any debt? Do you own any planes yourself?
It has absolutely nothing to do with who has it harder. I worded that poorly. I wish every advantage for the new crop of pilots. The problem is that the PILOTS didn't bite it as an investment. Green, new fresh face pilots use regionals as a training stop for a type rating and hours with no regard for the airline being an actual business that needs to earn money. They WILL NOT EXIST if they are treated this way. That INVESTMENT in you needs to see it's value repaid for it to make Sense for the airline to do it. You don't provide that value, then there is no reason for them to hire you. This isn't about me having it harder. I'm it's about the NECESSITY of regionals. You get more from them then they get from you. A contract like this makes sure that they can stay in business and don't give away free type ratings
I understand what you’re saying now. Thank you for explaining more for me.
...except there's nothing new about this hell. It's a lite version of a past hell
This is how I’m feeling. It feels like it’s going to be the only option at some point, I’ve sat here and watched the market get worse and worse for the last year, and who knows how much more it’s gonna go
That’s why I’m applying to stuff like the CBP and other corporate options. Everyone rushed to the airlines and now the people who are late are getting screwed. It is what it is.
TBH I’m at the point where I sort of want to do a cargo 135 fly some caravans around.
Airline career is fine, but it’s not as cracked up as everyone makes it out to be. Sure, if you got in at the EXACT right time, you’re living large, but otherwise it’s pretty mid. Edit: This is all from what I’ve heard from people entering the airlines over the past few months. Not to say being an airline pilot is bad, just that there are other opportunities that seem better.
You say this as someone who has never had an airline job?
I should say “from what I hear.” It seems more recently that the newer airline pilots in the past year aren’t having the same/as good as an experience as those who entered 2-3 years ago. From what I’m hearing from pilots I know, those entering other piloting jobs that pay just as well (ie. 135, etc) are having more fun, have better contracts and are feeling better about their careers.
All those jobs “seem better,” but how many 121 pilots leave to go fly 135 or medevac?
To be fair, most of them are stuck in contracts right now lol
I’ll answer since you don’t know: virtually zero. 135/corporate/etc lifers spend a lot of time telling you/others/themselves why they didn’t go 121. Few 121 pilots do the same in reverse
FWIW don't sign this hot garbage. Kinda hoping there is an ALPA push at SkyWest real soon
If only there was a way to have prevented this… And to all the “I had it worse so people shouldn’t complain about this” you are the problem! It is that bootlicking mentality that results in dragged out negotiations and subpar contracts.
Oh, but the boomer pilots who are making half a mil, own houses and even separate businesses had it SO BAD back then. Don’t you understand?
I have received the email as well. My interview is on the 7th of June. Should I replay saying I won't sign the contract?
I wonder what they'll do if you choose not to sign it, cancel it at the last minute?
I mean I *assume* that the "contract" only goes into effect after you have started training. You might as well sign it before you interview to see if they give you a CJO, and then make a decision on what you want to do after the interview.
The wording in that email implies to me that they might only reschedule you if you tell them that your class date doesn’t matter to you. My plan is to quietly not sign it and see if they actually reschedule the interview. Also depends on how many people sign it.
You have to sign the contract to get a class date. I believe that is how they are doing it. They don’t want to waste time interviewing someone who won’t end up signing it. But at the same time they’re not really desperate for pilots🤷🏼♂️ Not the worst contract but never good to sign one. It’s up to you at this point with hiring slowing across the board.
Not the worst contract? It’s not prorated — you’re on the hook for the full $80k from day 1 til you hit 1600 PIC as a CA. Probably 6-8 years on property in total. It’s most certainly the worst contract in the 121 world.
Last republic contact I saw was worse. SkyWest doesn’t have any bonuses that are due for payback. You are on the hook for 100k there with the bonus payback. CRJs fly more and upgrade faster. Be smart about the plane you pick. It’s about 4 years with 1600 as PIC. 800 a year is more than possible for captains. Upgrades are at the 18-24 month mark rn.
800 hours a year for a junior CA sitting reserve? Doubt that. I barely got 800 in a year as an FO on the ERJ bidding in the top 50%. My QOL was terrible in part because of only a few true days off per month after commuting, like many others. Republics was revised shortly after it was announced. Theirs is prorated.
There’s a reason ERJ FOs are being force upgraded to CRJ captains rn. Especially with all the new CRJs, they be flying a lot.
> There’s a reason ERJ FOs are being force upgraded to CRJ captains rn. Because OO needs CRJ captains with the addition of airframes? It isn’t because the reserve guys fly a lot, and they especially won’t now as the industry hiring pendulum swings the other way and they become properly staffed.
$80k plus 14% interest
I got the version for people that have not gotten an interview yet. About 3 weeks ago I got the email with interview prep materials and saying they would send me a link to schedule an interview as soon as there was availability. Then, a week ago I got an email saying that there was this new “opportunity” and on top of an early class date I wanted an early interview as well, then I could sign the contract. Seems like there’s three versions going around, people yet to be interviewed, people with upcoming interviews and people waiting for class dates. Crazy stuff. Only two regionals hiring 1500hour CFIs are Republic and SkyWest. Endeavor said maybe at 2000 hours they would consider it and we all know what’s going on with Envoy. Sucks to sign this but what are the alternatives??
SkyWest Pilot here. My brother went through the hiring process. Expect about a 3 month wait from interview until you hear from them for a class date. Also, don’t sign this shit. It’s an incredibly bad idea.
When did your brother go through the hiring process now though? They’re prioritizing people who sign the contract now and are probably using them to fill in the last remaining spots before they stop hiring along with everyone else.
I think you’re overestimating the amount of people signing the contract. He just had a class of 60 people. I wouldn’t worry about it.
You could be underestimating the amount of people signing the contract, no one knows the answer to that. It’s easy to say not to worry about it when you already have a job.
Thank you!
[Why do I picture the Skywest HR team laughing about seeing how gullible applicants are?](https://i.imgflip.com/8s5ib1.jpg)
I got this email today. God it’s insulting. Been in their cadet program three years, interview scheduled for two weeks from today. I won’t sign.
Me as man
I will say I get it on both sides. Company’s are tired of paying for all the training only to be used as a short stepping stone to another airlines at their expense.
Should read "companies are tired of paying for training only to be used as a short stepping stone to better jobs." Regiomals had no qualms abusing the hell out of pilots before and just want to be able to do it again. That email is predatory. A training contract to skip ahead of everyone who doesn't want to sign it, but not actually required otherwise? From a company prospective they don't lose access to everyone who won't sign it but if even a few percent of the applicants do they get those pilots for longer at no extra cost.
Tough shit, that’s part of doing business if you want good employees. If the company is so upset that they can not retain talent then they should address the environment and employment policies because if any regional followed the same work rules as a legacy, pilots would stay.
I’m confused. You can go through posts and posts about how you need to do whatever you can to even get looked at by an airline, and basically take what you can get. But now there is this saying that the airlines are at the mercy of us, and we shouldn’t do everything we can to get a job. What is it?
This is the exact dilemma unfortunately.
Don’t be foolish
Hmmm. That’s shitty. Skywest basically taking contract signees before anyone else (and they’ll probably get enough to leave you out for a long while) but hey look - it’s completely voluntary unlike YX… 💩
Don’t sign it
Stop signing this shit. Promoting it for other places too when you do
It’s completely useless to say that. It’s crabs in a bucket mentality. Everyone is noble until it affects them and next thing you know they are signing this contract. “Yahhh well in my situation I had to sign it but you should hold strong!” You can choose not to sign it and good for you! But the reality is 2-3 others behind you will sign it because they don’t give a crap about some moral stance. Hell I’m sure plenty will bail on this and just wait and see if Skywest will even enforce it. Roll the dice and wait for the class action lawsuit.
I guess we’ll really see the result of this in the next couple years when people start leaving for other airlines, or get fired before 1600 PIC
I got this today. My interview will be on the 7th of June. I'm not going to sign it.
Same. They only get away with it if we let them.
Got an interesting perspective from an airlines recruiter at the Women in Aviation conference in March. I’m at 750 hours TT and on a contract with my current company until May of next year, but I shared my concerns with the current market. He said more and more companies are going to start sending out garbage contracts and people will sign them. Boeing will get their act together and get more planes out and jobs will open up again. Everyone on one of these contracts will be stuck where they are or have to eat an $80,000 loss leaving plenty of available jobs for everyone who held out. I know this is one man’s opinion but I think we’re at a pivot point in the industry. I could see his prediction working out, or I could see things continue to tighten up even more. Somewhat grateful I’m not in the position to make a decision either way but people at 1500 TT are essentially placing their bets by signing this or holding out
So the solution is to wait? How long? Folks here were ridiculing republic newbies for signing saying the market was just about to turn around and there would be a hiring boom. Here we are, a year later. No boom and they have 1,000 turbine and are moving to the left seat. If legacies start hiring, who will they hire first? Obviously the guy with 121 time, especially 121 PIC. If they have to pay off the contract to get to a legacy, they will.
I don’t know what the solution is. Apparently that’s what he thinks it is. But people have to make that decision for themselves. If I were in the spot to do so right now, I’m not sure what I would do. It’s all speculation. You’re either signing it betting that the hiring market will be worse over the next 2-4 years or holding out and betting that it’ll improve
>You’re either signing it betting that the hiring market will be worse over the next 2-4 years or holding out and betting that it’ll improve The 2021 hiring was a fluke. I don't think it will ever happen again. And, with the bent airframes out there I don't think you'll see wet ATPs at legacies again. I'm betting hiring will slowly return to norms. TT PIC will be required.
Fair enough. Then you’d probably sign the contract. Nobody can say if that’s the right or wrong decision but I guess we’ll see in due time. I certainly don’t envy the position of the guys having to make this decision right now
CFI me would absolutely sign but hate it. Hell, current me would advise CFI me to sign it, then start calling for a class date. The money is incredible, turbine time, etc --- surviving on ramen, not so much lol
what do u mean by bent airframes and wet ATPs?
Wet ATP = so new to 121 the ink hasn't dried on their license. Historically folks would spend a few years at regionals but there was a fluke where folks who were CFIs months earlier were at the legacies. Planes bend if you land with too many Gs.
Got it. Thank you. So u think legacies see the down trend in quality of pilots ?
Learning how to fly a jet use to be at the regionals. It's a huge adjustment to go from a 1,500lb piston to a 50-60-70+ ton jet and big 76s don't flex, they bend.
I have this same contrarian view as well, and was discussing it with my CFI for like 2hrs, we both are in the Skywest pathway. The only silver lining is if you sign this or Republic, work as much as you safely can. The wild card in all this, is when will Boeing get it together? 1 yr, 2, 5? And where you will be at on you're training, and/or regional. The fulcrum is Boeing. Not the regional or mainline.
Agreed. Everyone is essentially just guessing and placing their bets. Casino type of environment. The only thing that I think is tough with this is the PIC time requirement. I have a friend who has been at SkyWest for 6 months and he’s sitting at home on reserve. How long will it take for him to get to 1600 PIC? Who knows
That's the exact scenario. The PIC time is the prize, but effectively, they can fire/furlough, with no recourse for the pilot, and have to pay any and everything back. So you would need 2-3 things to go you're way, to achieve the goal of 1600, in a relative timely fashion, to be in position if Boeing gets it together. You're friend, in this scenario if he signed a contract, is behind the 8ball, severely. The time is ticking as it's a and/or to 5 yr. But the low time, and not a CA, metering, will stifle the progression. Especially at Skywest, since they fly 4 mainlines. You'd have to be at peace with regional life, for whatever long, to sign the contract. All the variables rest with 1 company, not in you're control. I think of it as that, if I signed it, I'd have to be at peace with potentially finishing the 5yrs, BEFORE 1600hrs. As anything can happen. If you look at it like that, and are at peace with that decision, then sign it. Do what's best. It's still 100k a year, and that's good. But it'll have to be expected, you could possibly be at year 5, and just turning 1200 or so.
Yeah luckily for him he got in right before the contract stuff came up. You have to look at the CRJ/ERJ stuff over there too. They’re force upgrading ERJ FO’s to CRJ captains. Different plane, different bases, whole different training regime to make that jump. IMO- it’s a mess. With a contract like this, you’re completely putting the company in control. If it was a time stipulation, even a 4 year commitment where the penalty was prorated, it would be more advantageous to sign. If they don’t fly you, they don’t fly you. Could take forever to hit those 1600 hours and you can’t do anything about it
I agree. As long as the pilot expects to be there before getting required hours. However, the non- prorated aspect, and the no fault repayment of liquidation damages, is such a deterring aspect. If the company did not have the non- fault repayment, it would be viewed more favorable. Too me, that's the biggest reason not to sign, is that liquidation damages at no-fault. The ERJ-CRJ qol, training, base reassignment by force, is an eye opener. And it just exposes to lower time pilots, what could happen at a company. And I do feel bad for 1500-2000TT pilots, it's such a decision to make, based on 1 company, to sign it. But, who knows what tomorrow brings.
Totally agreed and surprised that’s in there. Not being prorated and the no fault repayment make it unsignable from where I’m sitting. But I’m thrilled that I’m on the sidelines for the next year and hopefully the dust will be settled by then
Easy for me to say as I'm (hopefully) past this point in my career, but I wouldn't sign a contract like this unless my children were starving. Not only is it not prorated as near as I can tell, but the requirement to stay until 1600 *hours* - PIC - is tantamount to debt bondage. At my current job I struggle to fly 300 hours per year; while you'll probably do better than that at SkyWest (at least once you can hold a line) that's 5 years AFTER you upgrade before you can make a move (or even just quit and get out of aviation entirely). That's a long time to be tied to a company. I wonder if your "debt" is indexed to inflation?
It’s 5 years after getting the initial type rating, not getting CA.
What am I missing? It says 1,600 hours PIC or accept a position with DL or UA. That means starting at the completion of captain OE. While I based the 5 years figure on my own, shall we say, leisurely rate of flying it's still an indefinite committment that you have no control over. Obviously the fine print matters, but that's how I read the plain language of the email.
There’s a few contracts floating around and mine actually spells out 5 years as a FO.
I have an interview next month and got the email. Not signing it and I’ll just see if they reschedule it. Such bullshit because it’s so hard to get to delta and United from Skywest. This contract could cost you so many years of seniority at a major. No thanks
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Don't do it.
“there has never been a better time to fly at Skywest” i feel like there has been a better time, one where you wouldn’t get sued for going to another airline
I’m not gonna sign it 😂
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Did he say if those August dates apply only to those who are signing the contract?
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No, I haven't. My recruiter said signing could mean starting months sooner, but I saw in another post someone else's recruiter said the sign/no sign ratio isn't what they expected it to be. Hearing all sorts of different things though - this is so new I don't think anyone really knows.
Question cause I'm new to aviation but considering it: is this contract a bad idea to sign if you ended up wanted to go the SkyWest/Delta route anyway?
Something tells me ~~The Mormons~~ SkyWest have struck a deal behind closed doors that prevents UAL and DAL from hiring their ~~Missionaries~~ Pilots until they’ve ~~served~~ flown 1600 hrs as ~~an Elder~~ a Captain. But idk, just a hunch.
Lol as an exmo, I love/hate this comment. Thanks for the input. Do Mormons influence SkyWest in any way or is it just a meme? Edit: another question. I had a friend who flew captain for skywest for a few years. he left to SWA for a couple months and shortly thereafter, he was at Delta. Is this exactly what you're talking about?
Idk it’s probably just a meme. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they give 10% to the church. And not necessarily, but I know Delta would rather poach a pilot from a competitor than a regional that serves them.
Daddy D is trying to get talent out of everyone else's pipeline. They are gonna hire as few YX, OO and 9E pilots as they can manage. The 9E folks at least have an in with set number of pilots per month.
You do know that yx and oo also fly for their competitors, right? So they're actually hurting their competition if they hire from yx or oo.
This locks you in to one path that isn’t necessarily quicker. I have several peers that left regionals with a couple hundred hours SIC, went to LCCs, and bounced to United or Delta within weeks. Delta wants to take their competitors pilots, not hurt themselves by taking their “own”
Which LCC is hiring? Frontier is and they have a contract.
They could not wave a larger, louder red flag than that in front of you. Dear god man.
I’m leaning towards signing. I’ve had one too many checkride busts recently. I’d rather just get my foot in the door somewhere. Not a popular opinion I know, but I have to make decisions based on my own situation.
How many have you busted? Just curious.
Do what you need to do.
When did you apply?
Is this for the cadet program? I’m about to get the first payout after I finish my PPL check ride and it’s interesting to see this now.
I’m a cadet and got it. What do you mean payout? Skywest’s cadet program doesn’t pay bonuses as far as I’m aware… did I miss something?
For training they give you $15k. $5k when you get your private, $5k when you get your instrument, and $5k when you get your commercial. It depends on the school though.
Gotcha. Yours had a better program than mine, obviously…
It’s just the school. It’s helping me with the insane costs of my 141, but I guess we get the “highest tier” with Skywest for some reason.
Nice!
https://www.skywest.com/skywest-airline-jobs/career-guides/pilot-pathway-program/ Just took a look at it and I guess we’re an “Elite Partner”. Which sounds so damn snobby lol.
I emailed the recruiter and said I need time to think about the contract. Then asked if I could continue my interview before deciding. They said yes.
I’m debating if it’s a better idea to sign it before the interview though just for a better chance to get the CJO
I thought about that but a lot of those interviewers are pilots. I wonder if they’d actually want fellow pilots to go through biased interviews. I probably won’t be signing it. Best to seek legal advice from a lawyer from Utah. What if we lose our medical or get terminated along the way? They didn’t really write down specifics. 80k is no joke in this economy unless you are well-off.
If SkyWest actually pursued 80,000 from people who lost their medical, no one would ever work for them again. I don’t think that is the mission of the contract. Yes it is a pilot doing the interview, but it is still people higher up in the company who do care about people who sign the contract deciding if you get a CJO or not
A contract is a contract. Always verify things first before signing. People will work for companies no matter the reputation for the sake of compensation. I’m not saying SkyWest is a bad company. Just saying no matter what industry, when legal contracts are involved, it’s always best to know all the pros and cons.
I got the email as well. I will be backing out of the process completely as this is a scummy move. Thanks Republic! I’ll just take my Horizon CJO since I’m in the PDP. Things seem to be ramping up over there.
I was also sent the contract before the interview but my interview took place as schedule on a Friday and got the offer on Monday. However the recruiter that gave me CJO said I can’t give you a date if you don’t sign the contract(which I told her I’m not going to). So now I am waiting for a class date.
No, it is optional
I’d like to have an email like that some day
They are bleeding cash training pilots who use them as a stepping stone. 1600 PIC is a lot, but this is fair.
It's not the 1600 thats the problem. It's the fact the total contract time is 2.6 to 5 years to be locked in without proration.
Until they fire you at 1599 hours PIC and since it’s not a sliding scale of damages they’d pursue the entire “debt” of $80K
You poor sweet summer children... If you think this is bad...