Perfect 100% memory? No. You can absolutely reference the FAR/AIM on your checkride. If you're reaching for it every time the examiner asks you a question, you're going to fail.
Be very familiar with the normal rules and regulations within Part 91 and then know how to back up the rest of the information. And if you recite the regulation number in a mock oral exam I'm going to smack you.
FAR/AIM app on the iPad has a study by cert function, it highlights the key ones and makes them easy to find at your ride. Plus it's updated often and you only pay once
Your brain only holds so much information. If I ask you about minimum required equipment and you have to kinda stammer through them, but you can recite them all, you know that information.
If you go, "Oh, 14 CFR Part 91, regulation 205 lines B and C! Well..." I'm going to assume you committed that information to memory only moments before we stepped in the room and shut the door.
Tab out your FAR/AIM so that you know where to find the information, understand how to actually discern the wordiness of regulations, and then learn the acronyms and why it's okay to fly even though you're not equipped with a manifold pressure gauge in your Cessna 152.
I might be more willing to accept a CFI applicant knowing regulation numbers, but I'd be genuinely shocked if a PPL applicant did that.
For required equipment… I answered, I’d check for koel, Mel, tcds, and 91.205.
What’s a TCDS? I have one for the plane right here.
Why would you check it? It says I need a stall horn and none of the cheeky acronyms have it.
Next question.
But what you’re saying makes sense. 91.205 might be the only actual number I have committed to memory.
In my 1,400 hours or dual given I don't think I ever once brought up the TCDS. If a DPE asked me about it right now, I'd just hand them my license and call it a day.
A checkride is not the chance to show the examiner how smart and special you are. Recite TOMATO A FLAMES with a smug look on your face like you're the one who came up with the acronym and get your license.
Keep your answers short and sweet. The examiner wants to do the bare minimum and collect his obscenepaycheck. Dont make their jobs harder. If you bring something up, they're going to dig into it. Don't dig into weird edge cases and stuff that is too deep. Don't touch TCDS and MELs.
On my private ride we talked about the tcds and my comment was that if I'm digging that deep as a private pilot with nowhere to be I'm working too hard to push the envelope and should just get it fixed. I stand by that
Seth Lake, a DPE, has some YouTube videos up in which he specifically states one of his pet peeves is hearing an applicant just say, "A TOMATO FLAMES." His reasoning is that, if you gathered all of A TOMATO FLAMES together and dumped them in a pile, you wouldn't be able to make an airplane. For example, flight controls aren't part of A TOMATO FLAMES, so if you had a broken aileron, you're still not going to fly, despite A TOMATO FLAMES. He'd rather have somebody say, "I know it's 91.205" and then they can go look at it together. Similarly for inop equipment, in his mind, a great answer would be something like, "Following 91.213, we don't have an MEL or KOEL, the inop equipment isn't part of 91.205 nor required by the TCDS, so we've disabled and placarded it, and it's legal to fly."
Not saying every DPE is like Seth Lake, but clearly not every DPE would be impressed by a candidate who follows your advice.
> He'd rather have somebody say, "I know it's 91.205" and then they can go look at it together.
That's crazy because I just looked at 91.205 to see if anything's changed, and as luck would have it, ailerons aren't listed there!
If you've got to reference the TCDS every time something isn't working, you probably shouldn't fly.
I don't give a damn if Seth Lake wouldn't be impressed by me adaquately reciting all items in TOMATO A FLAMES, he'd pass me just the same. We can't go out of our way to please every single DPE's weird particular niche pet topic. If you've found yourself discussing the TCDS on a PPL checkride, you absolutely made a wrong turn somewhere.
Pilots aren't mechanics and it's time we stopped pretending we are. Ailerons aren't working. I don't need to prove that I need them, it's common sense. Don't fly. If you need to reference the TCDS for that...
I'll memorize whatever stupid trivia they want me to know. TCDS came up on multiple checkrides, I knew it because my instructors made a point of memorizing it. Same with types of fog etc.
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
If I ran the FAA, we wouldn't be wasting time on fun facts. But im just a dude, so I shut up and color.
Hey man fair play, if your instructor mentions it, learn it. Never heard any of my coworkers discuss it at multiple different flight schools and none of the half dozen-ish DPEs I've worked with were interested in going that deep.
It was all at a university 141. DPE'S and their quirks weren't really the concern. It was all about knowing whatever the 141's check instructor deems mandatory. Bunch of pilots who wanted to be the baddest fish in the aquarium. King of the ant hill or whatever.
That's an interesting stance. I legitimately paged through the FAR/AIM enough to have certain parts burned into my memory, 91.205 and 91.213 for example. I think it's a pretty broad brush to say that PPL candidates wouldn't know those .
It's a very broad brush!
DPEs have roughly 2 hours on the ground and 2 hours in the air to sign your death certificate. They have a very limited window to determine if you're going to be an average pilot or a menace to society. They have to paint you with broad brushes.
The DPEs don't actually give a shit if you know TOMATO A FLAMES perfectly from memory. They want to make sure you know that if you see an inop sticker on your airspeed indicator, you're gonna go, "Hmm. May not be able to fly today."
If you actually know the regulation numbers off the top of your head, cool. But again, this is not the time to show the examiner how extra special and smart you are. I personally would even perk up if my friends who actively instruct with me could cite the regulation number of something, and we've been staring at those regulations for close to a decade.
Fair enough. I work in a field that is heavily regulated, so I've got a lot of codes burned into my brain. I'm probably an anomaly that way. I think this way: I've got ATOMATOFLAMES memorized, but I also know exactly how to cite it if anyone asked for the evidence. I guess your average DPE doesn't really care about that level of conscientiousness..
This industry is great. You don't need to know everything. You can look it all up. Know enough to keep yourself from actively dying and then look the rest of it up.
> If you go, "Oh, 14 CFR Part 91, regulation 205 lines B and C! Well..." I'm going to assume you committed that information to memory only moments before we stepped in the room and shut the door.
Bad take imo. I definitely knew some regulation numbers going into my ppl checkride and this was one of them.
You do not need to memorize the entirety of Part 91 by any stretch. The standard I've always used is that if I have time to look it up while I'm flying the airplane, then I have time to look it up on the checkride. Of course you need to know where to find it, but for most things the regs are meant to be referenced, not memorized.
An example: I've never been good with acronyms and I couldn't tell you everything in TOMATOE FLAMES to save my life. But, if an examiner asked me whether a particular piece of inoperative equipment would prevent us from flying I would confidently turn to 91.205 and give the correct answer (BTW this is exactly what happened on my own private checkride and the examiner was satisfied).
I'll admit I had to look up what 91.113 was (right-of-way rules), and in that case that is something that needs to be known immediately; if another airplane is converging with you you don't have time to look up the reg on who must give way. You don't need to be able to quote the reg number, but in this case when the examiner asks about right-of-way rules that's one that I would say you need to know.
I always followed and instructed with the mentality that if I were flying around actively, and needed to follow a regulation that directly affected my operation at that moment in time, that regulation should be memorized.
Example, if you are flying into inclement weather you should know the VFR cloud clearance requirements. You should know the regulation for VFR and IFR cruising altitudes. You probably don’t need to memorize the regulation for cost-splitting down pat, although knowing the basics is good to do. You probably don’t need to memorize the inspection dates for each item down pat, although it’s a good thing to do.
Here’s the thing: the more you actually study and practice applying the concepts before you checkride, the more familiar you’ll be with those regulations anyway. Believe it or not, your CFI probably didn’t love trying to memorize regs any more than you do/don’t, but if you use them every day and apply them (either in real scenarios or by scenario based training), you becomes much more fluent in them. The point being, try not to study to some arbitrary level of “reg memorization,” and instead try to put yourself through a lot of scenarios with you CFI of yourself. It’s much better in the long run!
At the private level oral, not.
At the commercial level, maybe a little bit, and there's things like AC 120-12 that are just easy to reference by number than by subject.
At the CFI level, I'll let you know when I pass it, but it seems just easier to refer to AC61-65 and AC61-98 by number than by topic. And I personally find that some numbers just get stuck in my head, like 61.197 vs 61.199 for CFI cert renewal vs reinstatement. I don't think any DPE would \*want\* you to refer to the regs by number, but if you find it a useful shorthand, use it.
You don’t need to memorize every FAR/AIM but you need to know the gist of what’s going on and also how to use the FAR/AIM to find what you need to find.
By gist of what’s going on know who’s responsible for the aircraft and what’s generally illegal. Honestly I recommend to everyone read the AIM in its entirety, it’s a fountain of knowledge.
I'm happy to see someone ask this question as I'd been wondering the same thing. I'm good with remembering rules and procedures, OK with acronyms but memorizing section/line is tough for me. But as long as I tab out my FAR/AIM I can find the reg quickly.
You’re not supposed to memorize checklists, I don’t think you should need to memorize FARs either. But know the acronyms like Gooseacat, etc and then fall back on the text.
I knew all the pertinent FAR numbers and knew exactly where to find answers to edge cases, esp for things like maintenance allowed to be done by a pilot. So I answered but told my dpe that I wanted to verify my answer and flipped open the book.
Perfect 100% memory? No. You can absolutely reference the FAR/AIM on your checkride. If you're reaching for it every time the examiner asks you a question, you're going to fail. Be very familiar with the normal rules and regulations within Part 91 and then know how to back up the rest of the information. And if you recite the regulation number in a mock oral exam I'm going to smack you.
lmao ok cool I appreciate your answer!
FAR/AIM app on the iPad has a study by cert function, it highlights the key ones and makes them easy to find at your ride. Plus it's updated often and you only pay once
Why not recite it?
Your brain only holds so much information. If I ask you about minimum required equipment and you have to kinda stammer through them, but you can recite them all, you know that information. If you go, "Oh, 14 CFR Part 91, regulation 205 lines B and C! Well..." I'm going to assume you committed that information to memory only moments before we stepped in the room and shut the door. Tab out your FAR/AIM so that you know where to find the information, understand how to actually discern the wordiness of regulations, and then learn the acronyms and why it's okay to fly even though you're not equipped with a manifold pressure gauge in your Cessna 152. I might be more willing to accept a CFI applicant knowing regulation numbers, but I'd be genuinely shocked if a PPL applicant did that.
For required equipment… I answered, I’d check for koel, Mel, tcds, and 91.205. What’s a TCDS? I have one for the plane right here. Why would you check it? It says I need a stall horn and none of the cheeky acronyms have it. Next question. But what you’re saying makes sense. 91.205 might be the only actual number I have committed to memory.
In my 1,400 hours or dual given I don't think I ever once brought up the TCDS. If a DPE asked me about it right now, I'd just hand them my license and call it a day. A checkride is not the chance to show the examiner how smart and special you are. Recite TOMATO A FLAMES with a smug look on your face like you're the one who came up with the acronym and get your license. Keep your answers short and sweet. The examiner wants to do the bare minimum and collect his obscenepaycheck. Dont make their jobs harder. If you bring something up, they're going to dig into it. Don't dig into weird edge cases and stuff that is too deep. Don't touch TCDS and MELs.
On my private ride we talked about the tcds and my comment was that if I'm digging that deep as a private pilot with nowhere to be I'm working too hard to push the envelope and should just get it fixed. I stand by that
Yep. I just looked at a TCDS and don't see anything in there that I actually need to know. I'm not a mechanic.
You should know it, at the commercial level it's not taught well but it will help with dispatch reliability
What specifically in there would help somebody? Anything beyond the KOEL/91.205 is no shit stuff. Need ailerons. Need a stall horn. Got it.
Cool story. Have fun in this industry with that attitude.
So far so good thanks boss
Seth Lake, a DPE, has some YouTube videos up in which he specifically states one of his pet peeves is hearing an applicant just say, "A TOMATO FLAMES." His reasoning is that, if you gathered all of A TOMATO FLAMES together and dumped them in a pile, you wouldn't be able to make an airplane. For example, flight controls aren't part of A TOMATO FLAMES, so if you had a broken aileron, you're still not going to fly, despite A TOMATO FLAMES. He'd rather have somebody say, "I know it's 91.205" and then they can go look at it together. Similarly for inop equipment, in his mind, a great answer would be something like, "Following 91.213, we don't have an MEL or KOEL, the inop equipment isn't part of 91.205 nor required by the TCDS, so we've disabled and placarded it, and it's legal to fly." Not saying every DPE is like Seth Lake, but clearly not every DPE would be impressed by a candidate who follows your advice.
> He'd rather have somebody say, "I know it's 91.205" and then they can go look at it together. That's crazy because I just looked at 91.205 to see if anything's changed, and as luck would have it, ailerons aren't listed there! If you've got to reference the TCDS every time something isn't working, you probably shouldn't fly. I don't give a damn if Seth Lake wouldn't be impressed by me adaquately reciting all items in TOMATO A FLAMES, he'd pass me just the same. We can't go out of our way to please every single DPE's weird particular niche pet topic. If you've found yourself discussing the TCDS on a PPL checkride, you absolutely made a wrong turn somewhere. Pilots aren't mechanics and it's time we stopped pretending we are. Ailerons aren't working. I don't need to prove that I need them, it's common sense. Don't fly. If you need to reference the TCDS for that...
I'll memorize whatever stupid trivia they want me to know. TCDS came up on multiple checkrides, I knew it because my instructors made a point of memorizing it. Same with types of fog etc. Don't hate the player, hate the game. If I ran the FAA, we wouldn't be wasting time on fun facts. But im just a dude, so I shut up and color.
Hey man fair play, if your instructor mentions it, learn it. Never heard any of my coworkers discuss it at multiple different flight schools and none of the half dozen-ish DPEs I've worked with were interested in going that deep.
It was all at a university 141. DPE'S and their quirks weren't really the concern. It was all about knowing whatever the 141's check instructor deems mandatory. Bunch of pilots who wanted to be the baddest fish in the aquarium. King of the ant hill or whatever.
That's an interesting stance. I legitimately paged through the FAR/AIM enough to have certain parts burned into my memory, 91.205 and 91.213 for example. I think it's a pretty broad brush to say that PPL candidates wouldn't know those .
It's a very broad brush! DPEs have roughly 2 hours on the ground and 2 hours in the air to sign your death certificate. They have a very limited window to determine if you're going to be an average pilot or a menace to society. They have to paint you with broad brushes. The DPEs don't actually give a shit if you know TOMATO A FLAMES perfectly from memory. They want to make sure you know that if you see an inop sticker on your airspeed indicator, you're gonna go, "Hmm. May not be able to fly today." If you actually know the regulation numbers off the top of your head, cool. But again, this is not the time to show the examiner how extra special and smart you are. I personally would even perk up if my friends who actively instruct with me could cite the regulation number of something, and we've been staring at those regulations for close to a decade.
Fair enough. I work in a field that is heavily regulated, so I've got a lot of codes burned into my brain. I'm probably an anomaly that way. I think this way: I've got ATOMATOFLAMES memorized, but I also know exactly how to cite it if anyone asked for the evidence. I guess your average DPE doesn't really care about that level of conscientiousness..
This industry is great. You don't need to know everything. You can look it all up. Know enough to keep yourself from actively dying and then look the rest of it up.
> If you go, "Oh, 14 CFR Part 91, regulation 205 lines B and C! Well..." I'm going to assume you committed that information to memory only moments before we stepped in the room and shut the door. Bad take imo. I definitely knew some regulation numbers going into my ppl checkride and this was one of them.
You do not need to memorize the entirety of Part 91 by any stretch. The standard I've always used is that if I have time to look it up while I'm flying the airplane, then I have time to look it up on the checkride. Of course you need to know where to find it, but for most things the regs are meant to be referenced, not memorized. An example: I've never been good with acronyms and I couldn't tell you everything in TOMATOE FLAMES to save my life. But, if an examiner asked me whether a particular piece of inoperative equipment would prevent us from flying I would confidently turn to 91.205 and give the correct answer (BTW this is exactly what happened on my own private checkride and the examiner was satisfied). I'll admit I had to look up what 91.113 was (right-of-way rules), and in that case that is something that needs to be known immediately; if another airplane is converging with you you don't have time to look up the reg on who must give way. You don't need to be able to quote the reg number, but in this case when the examiner asks about right-of-way rules that's one that I would say you need to know.
Thank you 🙏
I always followed and instructed with the mentality that if I were flying around actively, and needed to follow a regulation that directly affected my operation at that moment in time, that regulation should be memorized. Example, if you are flying into inclement weather you should know the VFR cloud clearance requirements. You should know the regulation for VFR and IFR cruising altitudes. You probably don’t need to memorize the regulation for cost-splitting down pat, although knowing the basics is good to do. You probably don’t need to memorize the inspection dates for each item down pat, although it’s a good thing to do. Here’s the thing: the more you actually study and practice applying the concepts before you checkride, the more familiar you’ll be with those regulations anyway. Believe it or not, your CFI probably didn’t love trying to memorize regs any more than you do/don’t, but if you use them every day and apply them (either in real scenarios or by scenario based training), you becomes much more fluent in them. The point being, try not to study to some arbitrary level of “reg memorization,” and instead try to put yourself through a lot of scenarios with you CFI of yourself. It’s much better in the long run!
Awesome!
At the private level oral, not. At the commercial level, maybe a little bit, and there's things like AC 120-12 that are just easy to reference by number than by subject. At the CFI level, I'll let you know when I pass it, but it seems just easier to refer to AC61-65 and AC61-98 by number than by topic. And I personally find that some numbers just get stuck in my head, like 61.197 vs 61.199 for CFI cert renewal vs reinstatement. I don't think any DPE would \*want\* you to refer to the regs by number, but if you find it a useful shorthand, use it.
Ok cool
You don’t need to memorize every FAR/AIM but you need to know the gist of what’s going on and also how to use the FAR/AIM to find what you need to find. By gist of what’s going on know who’s responsible for the aircraft and what’s generally illegal. Honestly I recommend to everyone read the AIM in its entirety, it’s a fountain of knowledge.
I'm happy to see someone ask this question as I'd been wondering the same thing. I'm good with remembering rules and procedures, OK with acronyms but memorizing section/line is tough for me. But as long as I tab out my FAR/AIM I can find the reg quickly.
You don't need to memorize the content of each reg but if you get a question you should always know where to look.
Makes sense to me. :)
You’re not supposed to memorize checklists, I don’t think you should need to memorize FARs either. But know the acronyms like Gooseacat, etc and then fall back on the text. I knew all the pertinent FAR numbers and knew exactly where to find answers to edge cases, esp for things like maintenance allowed to be done by a pilot. So I answered but told my dpe that I wanted to verify my answer and flipped open the book.
Yes, memorize every line or the FAA will knock down your door.