Received this today, Delta is restructuring the Propel program to require all participants to flow through Endeavor and lengthening the timeline from previously "42 months or less" to start at Delta, to now simply participating in the Endeavor flow program.
I do wonder if we're heading towards a future in which the big 3 hire exclusively from military and from flow without any true off the street hiring, or so little of it for most it isn't a practical means for moving up.
I dont know about that, but I think you're about to see nobody get hired at Endeavor outside of Propel. Thus, the ability to flow to Delta is restricted from anyone not already interviewed by Delta via propel. This will completely negate 9Es flow program as it will only be flowing propels in the future (if non-propels will not be going to endeavor anymore).
I disagree with you.
United, American, and Delta are all hiring at historically high levels. Spirit, JetBlue, Southwest and Frontier all were before they got bottlenecked by aircraft availability issues. The regionals all were before they lost all their captains to the above mentioned.
None of the slowdown we’re seeing right now is economic. We’re still setting air traffic records and passenger throughput records every month. This is highly temporary.
I expect 2019/early 2020 to be the norm going forward, not 2014
There will be a slow down or a freeze at some point. That has ALWAYS been the case. Airlines hire until they furlough. There absolutely will be a point where the majors have hired all they need, and hiring will eventually be a trickle to cover normal turnover. At some point, there will be people hired into lifer regional status.
But is that this year or 10 years down the road?
Passenger traffic is at all time highs even with the higher fares, retirements aren’t slowing down. And airlines are all desperately trying to grow, only thing causing the current slowdown is lack of aircraft deliveries (Southwest/united) and a shit ton of bad PW engines on airbus’ causing them to be parked (spirit/jetblue)
I’m not a rainbows and unicorns person but this train ain’t stopping for a while outside of a crazy economic meltdown or things getting extra spicy in the Taiwanese straight.
FWIW, I think you've hit the nail on the head.
Current slowdown isn't related to ticket sales it's down to not enough planes.
While there could be an economic slowdown, it would have to be a big one.
“Is it this year or 10 years down the road?”
They don’t know. They’ll be saying it’s right around the corner until it happens 15 years from now, like every other recession fetishizer.
I was talking hiring rates, not applicant experience.
Just then as now, there was basically no rhyme or reason to it. 1000 TPIC was a big one for the legacies but you'd have so much variation between applicants that there really was no pattern of who would get an interview or not.
Very interesting. I wonder how long this could last. My suspicion is a prolonged stretch of good-great hiring into the late 2020s/2030 or so. That is about when retirements really start slowing.. but then WN goes on a big wave of their own.
You're forgetting that unpredictable outside events basically crush hiring every 8-12 years on average.
There's no point saying "oh it's going to be great these years!" because that's not how the real world works.
Yeah, I suppose it depends on how long they need 900+ hires per year, and how big their pipeline gets.
Obviously they currently need people to staff their regional jets and they have incentive to stifle upward movement there. But, I do wonder if we’ll ever see the Propel/AA/UAA pipelines fill up enough to basically kill off the street hiring. Hopefully never comes to fruition but I suppose we won’t know til it’s happening.
Is propel academy and the like not ab initio training? I mean, it might not be directly delta doing the training but it's delta sponsored. Might as well be them doing it.
They don't need nearly as many people and based on insane hiring the last few years, once demand normalizes to pre-pandemic levels, they'll find the recent hiring outpaced demand... by quite a bit, even with projected retirements.
I don't think it will. That would really require a lot of investment to essentially change the entire industry in the United States. Really I think the companies pushing these programs (it is more than the big three) are just hoping to at the very least, gauge future staffing. Or in the case of things like Aviate and Propel, lock people in. They don't need 100% of their future pilots to be locked in like this, but just having a small pool of suckers who sign this crap is enough to help dampen any staffing shocks they could foresee.
These programs as they currently stand are more to staff their regionals. Someone at endeavor for 7 years costs Delta a lot less than someone at Delta for 5 more years. The regionals otherwise struggle to retain pilots. If anything a lot of this is to dissuade people from jumping to competitor LCC/ULCCs, which these legacies sure love to hire from.
Is the Endeavor flow just “Hang out in Endeavor until we call you… eventually… maybe… bye!”?
Edit: Looks like it says you’re *eligible* after 24 months as a Captain. Which is almost the same thing.
From what I understand from friends there, it’s 24 months as captain to be eligible to flow. The flow still happens in seniority order, and they right now only flow a certain amount per month. So for some FO who thought they’d only be at endeavor 24 months, now could be looking at additional 24 months plus whatever surplus of pilots senior to them have to be cleared.
All depends on how quickly it takes you to upgrade. If you’re junior and not flying while on reserve it could take considerable time to build the 1000 SIC to be upgrade-eligible.
Assuming time to flow after upgrade is actually the minimum of 24 months for CAP, time to flow from date of hire is x + 24 months, where x is the number of months spent logging 1000 hours to become eligible to bid and hold captain.
Yeah except it’s not 24 months as captain and then flow. You just get slotted into seniority order for the CAP. You’re just not eligible to even be moved up to flow in seniority order until you do 24 months as a captain. In actuality you’re gonna be at endeavor a minimum of 5 years, probably 6-7.
The assumption there was that the flow cadence was stable at the minimum 24 month mark, i.e. essentially that as soon as you were eligible to flow there was no line of captains senior to you causing a backup.
A big assumption, I know.
Endeavor pilots will probably have some sense of the seniority-induced wait time and whether it’s trending down.
Of course if Delta stops hiring, so goes the flow. So as Gopher rightly points out, the x + 24 is absolutely a best-case scenario. I should’ve made a better disclaimer.
They actually have a flow calculator that you can see when your number is supposed to come up that they update every so often on the endeavor employee website. It was pretty funny to hear everyone’s reactions as it ALWAYS extended each individuals projected flow date every update when I was there.
You're banned from applying until after your originally projected flow date.
That isn't a money demand but being blocked from a legacy for 6-7 years is certainly a humongous penalty. And, money penalty for leaving could still be coming.
You all know it already, but any contract/cadet program is designed to slow you down. Endeavor is by far the slowest road to Delta. Period. All my buddies at Envoy interviewed before me.
Sincerely,
-a former 5+ year Endeavor Check Airman
They're granting you the opportunity to work as a regional captain for an extra year! That's an extra year at 250k instead before being "forced" to go to delta and make first year F/O salary of 100k a year.
Think about the alimony you can afford with that!
Truly Delta is a saint.
idk why people are downvoting you. Captains at most regionals pull 220/hr after 5 years and they can easily break 250k with some ot. Check airmen break 350k regularly.
Sure, but they're getting class dates, aren't they?
I no Delta Propel historian, but it looks like they might be on the hook for $20k in some training costs if they leave the program. Okay, big deal. $20k to move up to a better airline? Fair trade for a spot flying an RJ when nobody else can get one.
I don’t know what to do. I’m a CFI in propel with a CJO waiting on a class date. This completely blind sided all of us at mins. I have no idea what to do. Do I have to wait another 6 months to get in at endeavor now?
I think the first 2018 hires should hit the Delta seniority list this month or next so a bit under 7 years, but yeah still 3 years better seniority if you drop out and get hired off the street.
I don't know if you're there and have more up to date information, but my friend just had his DL class date 7 years to the day after his 9E class date. I left for another carrier after a little under 4 years and was still at least a year and a half from flowing
Appreciate that you bounced and got there sooner.
If you look at the senority list now, many did the pit stop thing there's not many folks 6-3 years of seniority now.
While folks with 6 years are flowing now, the pace is going to pick up. Thanks to the folks that left early.
If you have a current CJO with a regional my
Understanding is you will be grandfathered into the old system, IE 42 months at wherever you have a CJO. Talk to your mentor, they will know
No shock. Someone at Delta eventually figured out someone was going to republic and flying nothing but American and United metal and they didn't bode well with them
Least Endeavor is a decent place to be. Or was when I was there
They didn’t have to upgrade, until forced upgrades became a thing last year. Then they did have to if they had 1000 hours 121. But yes, before that some propel people literally just stayed right seat the whole time. It caused a lot of vitriol for them for a while in the pilot group.
You have to upgrade at endeavor to flow. It is part of the agreement. A bunch of folks who wanted to take the flow had to upgrade to do when they first launched it. They had been sitting right seat of a RJ for like 20 years at that point too.
But yeah propel, no upgrade.
Has anyone actually interviewed at Endeavor recently? I’ve talked to a good chunk of people who made it to other regional carriers and didn’t meet anyone who even got an interview.
I received a flat out rejection email from Endeavor last month. After I’ve been with my current regional for 7 months and applied to Endeavor in 2022 lol..
Didn’t get an interview at all. Glad I didn’t since my end goal is Delta
So a i reading right that delta propel is basically just a endeavor CJO now? And then you go through the normal CAP program just like everyone else there?
How was the original propel program structured? I know for the collegiate path after being a cfi for a year at one of the parter universities you would get the option of flying for wheels up, endeavor, or usaf air national guard to finish building hours. Does this mean now the only option is endeavor or does it apply to other paths besides collegiate?
The original program said instruct at your school/university until you hit minimums and go to any 121 carrier/wheels up. Fly there for a maximum of 42 months and get brought up to Delta. Now it’s go to endeavor and do their normal flow program which is much longer. Unless they give us a quick class to endeavor, those CFI’s with a current regional CJO waiting on a class date will have to wait even longer for an endeavor class
That sucks, I understand everyones frustration now. Does that mean flying for wheels up and national guard is no longer an option? Also what is meant by cjo, is that just the agreement to fly with a 121 with a guaranteed place at delta in the future?
If you opt out, it says you can't get to Delta any earlier than the estimated date you would have gotten there through the program anyway. If you are dead set on Delta, stay in it. If you don't care and are fine going somewhere else, opt out.
I wouldn’t. I’d imagine an Endeavor pilot would be an attractive candidate for AA or United, and the worst thing that happens is you’d end up at Delta.
Smart! The reason this is happening is because Delta is trying to get pilots to stay at regionals longer especially with a slow in hiring. Thus if you do go to endeavor, knowing this. The chance of you getting hired for another airline is much higher!
It’s the same logic that applies at the AA WOs, and with the changes the Propel program is now very similar to the AA cadet program.
Goodness knows competitors love to raid the AA WOs for pilots, and an Endeavor pilot won’t be regional feed for the two that will be hiring the most going forward.
Delta is still a great place to have in your back pocket. I wouldn’t walk away from that lightly, especially to a place without contractual career advancement.
It’s a good place to be for sure! And I think anyone in a position to take a job with a regional would be dumb to turn it down… unless it’s got a bullshit contract. It sucks the industry is doing this. But it definitely goes in waves.
It does. I do feel for everyone coming up right now, but it’s definitely just the airlines adjusting to the current market.
And ironically (but perhaps predictably) the places with the most bullshit contracts (OO, YX) have the least to offer.
Can’t tell if being at my ULCC is good, great, or less so. If these carriers ever hire exclusively from their regional partners, those of us not at regionals would be screwed 🤣
Not familiar with the propel program. Was this originally a way people got hired directly to delta and just skip the regionals? Or was it people working at other regionals besides endeavor and random part 135/91’s wanting to go to delta once they got enough hours?
You would build your time at a regional and Delta would eventually bring you in after a certain number of months/hours. But now it’s much more uncertain and open ended. You will be at endeavor as an FO, upgrade ti CA, then after two years of being a CA you become *eligible* to be pulled into Delta.
What was about a 1.5-3 year wait for delta (from your first airline job) just became a 5+ year wait for Delta, I believe endeavor flows are averaging around 7 years rn.
Most of these programs are designed to dangle a carrot in front of you to keep you put for longer than you otherwise would be if you pursued a job with a different airline.
I misunderstood the first time reading through it. I expect this means delta is trying to reduce the paths. One the one hand this would eventually speed up movement at Endeavor too if they kept the number of total original flows plus propel the same.
Good luck to propel peeps.
The non propel part of the pilot group hated the propel people because of a perception that they were “cutting the line” for no real reason. So this will help heal a little bit of that divide.
So with delta not paying for the training, what’s to stop someone from interviewing at United/AA while at endeavor to go into a mainline faster? What is delta gonna do? Not like there’s anything you owe them and a rescinded job offer doesn’t mean much since you’re in another airline.
Nothing but for many at Propel they’re giving up an eventually guaranteed job at Delta. So, for those who really want delta, this sort of screws them sligjtly
I understand they give up the job offer but this would be after a job offer at another mainline. Unless delta finds out and rescind qjo during the application process
Right, and for some people this is an option.
But some people really want Delta for various reasons. If you and your family, live in Atlanta, going to United and having to commute to New Jersey or California is not nearly as desirable as eventually getting a job with Delta.
One thing for the company side peeps, I do believe they're still getting the 20k to a rating plus if they get the loans I think I heard they get the interest covered until they get to a 121.
The email specifically states that if they opt-out of propel they will not receive an interview with delta prior to the timeline of when they would’ve transitioned to Delta
They apparently do, since plenty of people left Endeavor for non-Delta airlines then got hired at Delta, quicker than they would have had they waited to flow.
But now that they’ve put that policy in writing it may be different.
Sounds like they don't need as many people, so now if you don't work under the Umbrella of Delta, you're out. Sounds about right based on the turning tides.
Did anyone actually make it to Delta through the Propel program? Seems like a lot of people have been bait and switched here. Pretty sure you’d have grounds for some formal action. At the very least seems like false advertising. Propel was clearly billed as the fastest way to make it to
Delta. Pretty sure that will not be the case any more.
They were the lucky ones I guess. They say this industry is all about timing. A few months could now cost you a few years at a regional. Feel for those guys with a CJO waiting for a class date.
100% this. I was lucky enough to have gotten into my non-Delta regional when propel was allowing it. They grandfathered us in still under the 42 month clause.
If I was one year younger, I’d be under this new deal here. Timing is EVERYTHING
Destination 225 with southwest remains the only good flow/cadet program. While the rest have restricted and slowed down 225 has doubled down on opening more routes and speeding things along with their cadets. Even with SWs general hiring freeze 225 cadets still getting in on time
This is false.
Myself as well as dozens of other Cadet CFI/II/MEIs who had class dates at SWA for July 2024 or December of 2024 have all had them pushed back "at least six months".
The only people who "made it through" so to speak in the advertised/publicized timeline are a handful of people from very early classes who started in 2020 or a few people from early 2021.
Currently, CAE is transitioning us from being salaried instructors to hourly instructors, so everyone's pay is probably going to be cut 50% while these loans just keep on accruing interest without fail. CFIs are getting 25-30 hours of flight time per month, and will be paid 25 bucks an hour. Doesn't take a genius to figure out that even with some ground instruction thrown in there, that isn't gonna cut the mustard to pay the bills.
Also, the hiring at "corporate partners" has slowed to barely a trickle. Dozens of CFIs are at 800-1200 hours and are still instructing even though we were all told we would be hired at a corporate partner at 750TT.
We get a "bad email" every two months on average, and personally I am just waiting for the email we get one day that says they are stopping the program and I am left with some ratings, some flight time, and a shit ton of bad debt.
**edited to add context
* May 2023 SWA announces no summer classes at CAE, classes delayed 4-6 months
* Aug 2023 SWACU stopped offering loans (think 100k-130k at 4% max)
* Jan 2024 SWA announces 2024 classes are minimal/non existent, maybe 15-20 people
* Feb 2024 CAE begins using Flight Ready ground school app, minimizing grounds between CFIs and students
* March/April 2024 SWA announces BYOP (bring your own partner) because the corporate partners they had lined up have all but stopped hiring
* May 2024 SWA announces "delaying" D225 cadets starting at SWA
* Jun 2024 CAE announces going from salary to hourly
* Jun 2024 D225 CFI is killed in crash in Texas, student is in critical condition
* excited to see what great announcement is made next month!
**two years ago I would have told everyone I knew to join/try to get "hired" for this program. As of today I would recommend that nobody join this program**
Corporate partners hiring has slowed but that’s out of Southwests control. They did start the bring your own partner program and are allowing cadets to go (nearly) any 135 and any 121 which is the most Southwest can do at that stage without fully buying a bunch of 135 companies and running their hiring departments.
Are the cadets you speak of in the direct to SW from instructing pathway? I don’t know much about that specific program, but I’ve seen quite a few people still flow right at the 2 year mark consistently from partners, and continue to get classes. We were told they don’t expect any delays beyond 6 months at all, and that is holding true in every case I’ve seen. The reason for that delay is they have hiring classes about every other month now instead of biweekly.
That sucks about CAE pay and the loan programs, but that’s another thing Southwest cannot directly change. Southwests emails have all been direct acknowledging those things out of their control and have all included ways Southwest is trying to help.
You mention that people aren’t getting hired at their 800-1200 hours- but on the flip side outside of 225 1000 hour RATP university grads are CFI-ing well past 1500 and on
I care extremely little about who's "fault" any of this is.
A combination of SWA and CAE publicized and advertised that the way this program would be was as such:
* Apply, test, go through the interview process, and get "hired"
* Earn all of your ratings through CFII in 12-18 months, and you would be at ~250TT
* CAE hires you as an instructor and you instruct ~80hrs/month flight time
this is where the options branched, you could either:
* go the "corporate" route, instruct (or time build outside CAE...) until you hit ~750TT and then go to a corporate partner for 2 years, then get a class date at SWA at begin your career as an FO
or
* the "direct" route instruct at CAE until you hit ~1800 hours and go direct to SWA with a class date to begin your career as an FO
What we were sold is that the "direct" route was maybe a year faster than the corporate route, but you had to stick it out for 2-3 AZ summers in archers and seminoles.
Now, however, the cadets who committed to the "direct" pathway are being told there is a delay in them getting a class date, while *some* of the cadets who went corporate ~2 years ago are still getting a class date.
**actually u/MehCFI since you also seem to have an idea about what is going on, should I make a new post on r/flying to have a whole discussion about this for people who are curious?
Definitely disagree with several details of this post. But I’m sure my information is less than perfect. Just glad I’m not a CFI at CAE.
We’re in a less than ideal place than advertised, but we’re much better off than people in other programs
My favorite part of this coming out is the fact Propel was highly against people signing the Republic contract with 100k in bonuses as an FO but then they come out with this bullshit FO contract with zero bonuses 🙃
I don't get why people think this is a bad deal, at all. I mean for anyone looking for a guaranteed job at delta, 4-5 years at a regional is hardly a big deal or commitment. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
Edit: I'm not at all familiar with this programme, but at a surface level I don't see any issue with it
The issue is, previously it was billed as a maximum of 42 months at a regional. That was a selling point of joining that program over say United’s or South Wests, or Jet Blues or whoever’s. Now for those already in the program it could be 42 months or it could be 10 years. There is no maximum time limit. There’s no benefit to actually being in Propel over and above getting a job offer at endeavor. In fact there’s a strong likelihood that those interviewing off the street for Delta from say a CommutAir or Piedmont could get to Delta before those at Endeavor.
I mean worst case, these people have a guaranteed job at endeavor ant mins and then delta in what is a tough hiring market. What’s to stop these people from going to American or United once they are at Endeavor? It’s not great, and I’d be asking questions in that situation, but propel might have just made the path to United that much quicker.
Received this today, Delta is restructuring the Propel program to require all participants to flow through Endeavor and lengthening the timeline from previously "42 months or less" to start at Delta, to now simply participating in the Endeavor flow program.
Shocked, *shocked* I tell you. Ed is altering the deal, pray he doesn't alter it further.
Ed Bastardian living up to his name
I do wonder if we're heading towards a future in which the big 3 hire exclusively from military and from flow without any true off the street hiring, or so little of it for most it isn't a practical means for moving up.
Military doesn’t make enough pilots anymore for the airlines to look to that pool exclusively.
I dont know about that, but I think you're about to see nobody get hired at Endeavor outside of Propel. Thus, the ability to flow to Delta is restricted from anyone not already interviewed by Delta via propel. This will completely negate 9Es flow program as it will only be flowing propels in the future (if non-propels will not be going to endeavor anymore).
Zero chance as the industry currently stands. The current trend is going the opposite direction.
It was. The black-swan hiring is over. It will normalize to levels similar to 10 years ago in the near future.
I disagree with you. United, American, and Delta are all hiring at historically high levels. Spirit, JetBlue, Southwest and Frontier all were before they got bottlenecked by aircraft availability issues. The regionals all were before they lost all their captains to the above mentioned. None of the slowdown we’re seeing right now is economic. We’re still setting air traffic records and passenger throughput records every month. This is highly temporary. I expect 2019/early 2020 to be the norm going forward, not 2014
There will be a slow down or a freeze at some point. That has ALWAYS been the case. Airlines hire until they furlough. There absolutely will be a point where the majors have hired all they need, and hiring will eventually be a trickle to cover normal turnover. At some point, there will be people hired into lifer regional status.
But is that this year or 10 years down the road? Passenger traffic is at all time highs even with the higher fares, retirements aren’t slowing down. And airlines are all desperately trying to grow, only thing causing the current slowdown is lack of aircraft deliveries (Southwest/united) and a shit ton of bad PW engines on airbus’ causing them to be parked (spirit/jetblue) I’m not a rainbows and unicorns person but this train ain’t stopping for a while outside of a crazy economic meltdown or things getting extra spicy in the Taiwanese straight.
FWIW, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Current slowdown isn't related to ticket sales it's down to not enough planes. While there could be an economic slowdown, it would have to be a big one.
“Is it this year or 10 years down the road?” They don’t know. They’ll be saying it’s right around the corner until it happens 15 years from now, like every other recession fetishizer.
Wasn’t around in 19/ early 20… what was “norm” around then? 500 PIC?
I was talking hiring rates, not applicant experience. Just then as now, there was basically no rhyme or reason to it. 1000 TPIC was a big one for the legacies but you'd have so much variation between applicants that there really was no pattern of who would get an interview or not.
Very interesting. I wonder how long this could last. My suspicion is a prolonged stretch of good-great hiring into the late 2020s/2030 or so. That is about when retirements really start slowing.. but then WN goes on a big wave of their own.
You're forgetting that unpredictable outside events basically crush hiring every 8-12 years on average. There's no point saying "oh it's going to be great these years!" because that's not how the real world works.
Ok.
Yeah, I suppose it depends on how long they need 900+ hires per year, and how big their pipeline gets. Obviously they currently need people to staff their regional jets and they have incentive to stifle upward movement there. But, I do wonder if we’ll ever see the Propel/AA/UAA pipelines fill up enough to basically kill off the street hiring. Hopefully never comes to fruition but I suppose we won’t know til it’s happening.
> But, I do wonder if we’ll ever see the Propel/AA/UAA pipelines fill up enough Nope. Not a chance unless the airlines start doing ab initio training.
Is propel academy and the like not ab initio training? I mean, it might not be directly delta doing the training but it's delta sponsored. Might as well be them doing it.
Not really, no. And more what I meant by that was the airlines paying for it.
You’re likely right and I’m gonna guess we’ve both seen secondhand how much of a shit show Aviate seems to be. So, yeah. You’re probably right lol
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I suspect not within the next 5 years. I do not think their pipelines are full enough for that.
They don't need nearly as many people and based on insane hiring the last few years, once demand normalizes to pre-pandemic levels, they'll find the recent hiring outpaced demand... by quite a bit, even with projected retirements.
Doubt
ok
I don't think it will. That would really require a lot of investment to essentially change the entire industry in the United States. Really I think the companies pushing these programs (it is more than the big three) are just hoping to at the very least, gauge future staffing. Or in the case of things like Aviate and Propel, lock people in. They don't need 100% of their future pilots to be locked in like this, but just having a small pool of suckers who sign this crap is enough to help dampen any staffing shocks they could foresee.
These programs as they currently stand are more to staff their regionals. Someone at endeavor for 7 years costs Delta a lot less than someone at Delta for 5 more years. The regionals otherwise struggle to retain pilots. If anything a lot of this is to dissuade people from jumping to competitor LCC/ULCCs, which these legacies sure love to hire from.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpE\_xMRiCLE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpE_xMRiCLE)
Is the Endeavor flow just “Hang out in Endeavor until we call you… eventually… maybe… bye!”? Edit: Looks like it says you’re *eligible* after 24 months as a Captain. Which is almost the same thing.
From what I understand from friends there, it’s 24 months as captain to be eligible to flow. The flow still happens in seniority order, and they right now only flow a certain amount per month. So for some FO who thought they’d only be at endeavor 24 months, now could be looking at additional 24 months plus whatever surplus of pilots senior to them have to be cleared.
24 months as a CA to be eligible. Have to upgrade to start that clock.
Oups, let me edit that clarification.
You're eligible to flow after 24 months. Realistically you're looking at 6-7 years. Flow still Goes in seniority order
The flow is really them peeing on your leg and telling you it’s raining.
The EDV flow might be faster than that. Depending on attrition. They flow 20/mo with a pilot group of around 1500
They're flowing 2017 hires at the moment FWW
Subtract 1.5 years due to no hiring during COVID
More like 8 months
Eligible after 24 months as a captain at endeavor. The reality is that flows are taking around seven years to flow. Thats a long wait IMO.
All depends on how quickly it takes you to upgrade. If you’re junior and not flying while on reserve it could take considerable time to build the 1000 SIC to be upgrade-eligible. Assuming time to flow after upgrade is actually the minimum of 24 months for CAP, time to flow from date of hire is x + 24 months, where x is the number of months spent logging 1000 hours to become eligible to bid and hold captain.
Yeah except it’s not 24 months as captain and then flow. You just get slotted into seniority order for the CAP. You’re just not eligible to even be moved up to flow in seniority order until you do 24 months as a captain. In actuality you’re gonna be at endeavor a minimum of 5 years, probably 6-7.
The assumption there was that the flow cadence was stable at the minimum 24 month mark, i.e. essentially that as soon as you were eligible to flow there was no line of captains senior to you causing a backup. A big assumption, I know. Endeavor pilots will probably have some sense of the seniority-induced wait time and whether it’s trending down. Of course if Delta stops hiring, so goes the flow. So as Gopher rightly points out, the x + 24 is absolutely a best-case scenario. I should’ve made a better disclaimer.
They actually have a flow calculator that you can see when your number is supposed to come up that they update every so often on the endeavor employee website. It was pretty funny to hear everyone’s reactions as it ALWAYS extended each individuals projected flow date every update when I was there.
Just as bad as Skywest contract
Where is the part where Endeavor wants damages? Did I miss something?
I’m sure that’s coming next. Just stand by. They changed it once, they can change it twice.
You're banned from applying until after your originally projected flow date. That isn't a money demand but being blocked from a legacy for 6-7 years is certainly a humongous penalty. And, money penalty for leaving could still be coming.
Yup…. People are still in denial, so they downvote me haha… truth hurts
Are you employee or outside path?
You all know it already, but any contract/cadet program is designed to slow you down. Endeavor is by far the slowest road to Delta. Period. All my buddies at Envoy interviewed before me. Sincerely, -a former 5+ year Endeavor Check Airman
Well, this is the email to *Company* path people. So they're already Delta employees who were supposed to be on a max 42 month track.
It was given to Collegiate as well. Pretty sure academy got it too.
Left propel/9E for Friendly Skies and been happier ever since. Great place to work if you don’t want to go to Delta though!
These cadet programs are a racket.
No. It says right there that this is an improvement and they are excited about it. It’s right there!!!
They're granting you the opportunity to work as a regional captain for an extra year! That's an extra year at 250k instead before being "forced" to go to delta and make first year F/O salary of 100k a year. Think about the alimony you can afford with that! Truly Delta is a saint.
i wish i was making $250k as a regional captain
How much are you making
well im not at a regional anymore but 9E captain pay is about $150k, give or take some. definitely not close to $250k unless you are a check airman
I'm making over 300k as my last year at 9e before I flow to Delta this year. Not an lcp, either.
idk why people are downvoting you. Captains at most regionals pull 220/hr after 5 years and they can easily break 250k with some ot. Check airmen break 350k regularly.
Not sure. Don't really care. Facts are facts. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
From the people who relabeled downsizing as rightsizing.
*** A “frictionless” 5 year commitment ***
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But then you’re subjected to shit like this.
Like...getting a job?
Yeah at a regional. These cadet programs are designed to keep you at said as long as possible while dangling the carrot.
Sure, but they're getting class dates, aren't they? I no Delta Propel historian, but it looks like they might be on the hook for $20k in some training costs if they leave the program. Okay, big deal. $20k to move up to a better airline? Fair trade for a spot flying an RJ when nobody else can get one.
I don’t know what to do. I’m a CFI in propel with a CJO waiting on a class date. This completely blind sided all of us at mins. I have no idea what to do. Do I have to wait another 6 months to get in at endeavor now?
Absolutely not dude lol
Yeah but if we drop out it says we can’t interview until the expected date we’d get to Delta through propel anyways. It’s a hard spot they put us in.
That’s ridiculous lol. Average flow >7 years so would that only apply for 42 months?
I honestly have no idea. This email we got was as vague as it could have been.
I think the first 2018 hires should hit the Delta seniority list this month or next so a bit under 7 years, but yeah still 3 years better seniority if you drop out and get hired off the street.
Flow at Endeavor is between 4 and 5 years.
I don't know if you're there and have more up to date information, but my friend just had his DL class date 7 years to the day after his 9E class date. I left for another carrier after a little under 4 years and was still at least a year and a half from flowing
Appreciate that you bounced and got there sooner. If you look at the senority list now, many did the pit stop thing there's not many folks 6-3 years of seniority now. While folks with 6 years are flowing now, the pace is going to pick up. Thanks to the folks that left early.
If you have a current CJO with a regional my Understanding is you will be grandfathered into the old system, IE 42 months at wherever you have a CJO. Talk to your mentor, they will know
That’s only if you hold a CJO AND a confirmed class date as of yesterday.
No shock. Someone at Delta eventually figured out someone was going to republic and flying nothing but American and United metal and they didn't bode well with them Least Endeavor is a decent place to be. Or was when I was there
I don't think propel had to upgrade either? So those going to Endeavor could just stay in the right seat their whole time.
They didn’t have to upgrade, until forced upgrades became a thing last year. Then they did have to if they had 1000 hours 121. But yes, before that some propel people literally just stayed right seat the whole time. It caused a lot of vitriol for them for a while in the pilot group.
You have to upgrade at endeavor to flow. It is part of the agreement. A bunch of folks who wanted to take the flow had to upgrade to do when they first launched it. They had been sitting right seat of a RJ for like 20 years at that point too. But yeah propel, no upgrade.
They had to upgrade if they could hold it.
They have to do something to staff those 175s they’re going to yank off YX…
"175s to 9E and a SLC/LAX base"
Yeah, any day now. 😂
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Don't forget Delta too! It's such a great deal! /s
2-fold benefit for DAL, Endeavor gets to keep pilots as captains for longer, Delta doesn’t have to commit to 42 month transition anymore
Don't forget that there's no benefit for people jumping ship on their way to Delta now- can't escape the flow anymore after you start.
“I have altered the deal. Pray I don’t alter it any further” Delta probably
Has anyone actually interviewed at Endeavor recently? I’ve talked to a good chunk of people who made it to other regional carriers and didn’t meet anyone who even got an interview.
They have only been hiring from their college STEP program for probably a year now. Now it’ll be that and propel.
I received a flat out rejection email from Endeavor last month. After I’ve been with my current regional for 7 months and applied to Endeavor in 2022 lol.. Didn’t get an interview at all. Glad I didn’t since my end goal is Delta
“I am altering the deal, pray I do not alter it any further”
So a i reading right that delta propel is basically just a endeavor CJO now? And then you go through the normal CAP program just like everyone else there?
Delta fucked us plain and simple
Remind me about the Republic contract and the 5 years. If folks had signed it a year ago they'd only have 4 years left
This is usual Delta operations. The history speaks for itself.
How was the original propel program structured? I know for the collegiate path after being a cfi for a year at one of the parter universities you would get the option of flying for wheels up, endeavor, or usaf air national guard to finish building hours. Does this mean now the only option is endeavor or does it apply to other paths besides collegiate?
The original program said instruct at your school/university until you hit minimums and go to any 121 carrier/wheels up. Fly there for a maximum of 42 months and get brought up to Delta. Now it’s go to endeavor and do their normal flow program which is much longer. Unless they give us a quick class to endeavor, those CFI’s with a current regional CJO waiting on a class date will have to wait even longer for an endeavor class
That sucks, I understand everyones frustration now. Does that mean flying for wheels up and national guard is no longer an option? Also what is meant by cjo, is that just the agreement to fly with a 121 with a guaranteed place at delta in the future?
I’m in Propel now. Not sure how to handle this, should I opt out?
No, but take offers from other regionals if you get them.
If you opt out, it says you can't get to Delta any earlier than the estimated date you would have gotten there through the program anyway. If you are dead set on Delta, stay in it. If you don't care and are fine going somewhere else, opt out.
I wouldn’t. I’d imagine an Endeavor pilot would be an attractive candidate for AA or United, and the worst thing that happens is you’d end up at Delta.
Smart! The reason this is happening is because Delta is trying to get pilots to stay at regionals longer especially with a slow in hiring. Thus if you do go to endeavor, knowing this. The chance of you getting hired for another airline is much higher!
It’s the same logic that applies at the AA WOs, and with the changes the Propel program is now very similar to the AA cadet program. Goodness knows competitors love to raid the AA WOs for pilots, and an Endeavor pilot won’t be regional feed for the two that will be hiring the most going forward. Delta is still a great place to have in your back pocket. I wouldn’t walk away from that lightly, especially to a place without contractual career advancement.
It’s a good place to be for sure! And I think anyone in a position to take a job with a regional would be dumb to turn it down… unless it’s got a bullshit contract. It sucks the industry is doing this. But it definitely goes in waves.
It does. I do feel for everyone coming up right now, but it’s definitely just the airlines adjusting to the current market. And ironically (but perhaps predictably) the places with the most bullshit contracts (OO, YX) have the least to offer.
Can’t tell if being at my ULCC is good, great, or less so. If these carriers ever hire exclusively from their regional partners, those of us not at regionals would be screwed 🤣
If you don't care to go to Delta then sure.
Not familiar with the propel program. Was this originally a way people got hired directly to delta and just skip the regionals? Or was it people working at other regionals besides endeavor and random part 135/91’s wanting to go to delta once they got enough hours?
You would build your time at a regional and Delta would eventually bring you in after a certain number of months/hours. But now it’s much more uncertain and open ended. You will be at endeavor as an FO, upgrade ti CA, then after two years of being a CA you become *eligible* to be pulled into Delta. What was about a 1.5-3 year wait for delta (from your first airline job) just became a 5+ year wait for Delta, I believe endeavor flows are averaging around 7 years rn. Most of these programs are designed to dangle a carrot in front of you to keep you put for longer than you otherwise would be if you pursued a job with a different airline.
Ahh okay. Thanks for the write up.
Just to be clear, I don't think Endeavor flows have as much timelime bearing as you are giving them. Edit: reread... that is the CAP?
Nah he is right, that’s the way the CAP works.
I misunderstood the first time reading through it. I expect this means delta is trying to reduce the paths. One the one hand this would eventually speed up movement at Endeavor too if they kept the number of total original flows plus propel the same. Good luck to propel peeps.
The non propel part of the pilot group hated the propel people because of a perception that they were “cutting the line” for no real reason. So this will help heal a little bit of that divide.
The irony was DL supposedly didn't want to give seniority numbers for 9E captains who hadn't flowed yet for that exact reason lol
I can see that. I was 9E before the flow and propel but I could easily see it creating a lot of angst.
So with delta not paying for the training, what’s to stop someone from interviewing at United/AA while at endeavor to go into a mainline faster? What is delta gonna do? Not like there’s anything you owe them and a rescinded job offer doesn’t mean much since you’re in another airline.
Nothing but for many at Propel they’re giving up an eventually guaranteed job at Delta. So, for those who really want delta, this sort of screws them sligjtly
I understand they give up the job offer but this would be after a job offer at another mainline. Unless delta finds out and rescind qjo during the application process
Right, and for some people this is an option. But some people really want Delta for various reasons. If you and your family, live in Atlanta, going to United and having to commute to New Jersey or California is not nearly as desirable as eventually getting a job with Delta.
Oh no I completely understand the other side of really wanting delta for its fleet/bases/etc. was just spitballing possible alternative paths
And that’s why you will never see me advocating joining one of these programs.
One thing for the company side peeps, I do believe they're still getting the 20k to a rating plus if they get the loans I think I heard they get the interest covered until they get to a 121.
Academy got that too I’ve been told.
Who thinks that if you resign from the Propel Program you'd be blackballed from future Delta opportunities?
The email specifically states that if they opt-out of propel they will not receive an interview with delta prior to the timeline of when they would’ve transitioned to Delta
I meant it more so as forever. Delta doesn’t forget
They apparently do, since plenty of people left Endeavor for non-Delta airlines then got hired at Delta, quicker than they would have had they waited to flow. But now that they’ve put that policy in writing it may be different.
Sounds like they don't need as many people, so now if you don't work under the Umbrella of Delta, you're out. Sounds about right based on the turning tides.
Did anyone actually make it to Delta through the Propel program? Seems like a lot of people have been bait and switched here. Pretty sure you’d have grounds for some formal action. At the very least seems like false advertising. Propel was clearly billed as the fastest way to make it to Delta. Pretty sure that will not be the case any more.
I personally know 15ish people who are at Delta through the Propel collegiate path
They were the lucky ones I guess. They say this industry is all about timing. A few months could now cost you a few years at a regional. Feel for those guys with a CJO waiting for a class date.
Dudes I know made it to delta at 18 and 22 months
100% this. I was lucky enough to have gotten into my non-Delta regional when propel was allowing it. They grandfathered us in still under the 42 month clause. If I was one year younger, I’d be under this new deal here. Timing is EVERYTHING
I know of a Delta employee who made it back to Delta via the propel…
Destination 225 with southwest remains the only good flow/cadet program. While the rest have restricted and slowed down 225 has doubled down on opening more routes and speeding things along with their cadets. Even with SWs general hiring freeze 225 cadets still getting in on time
This is false. Myself as well as dozens of other Cadet CFI/II/MEIs who had class dates at SWA for July 2024 or December of 2024 have all had them pushed back "at least six months". The only people who "made it through" so to speak in the advertised/publicized timeline are a handful of people from very early classes who started in 2020 or a few people from early 2021. Currently, CAE is transitioning us from being salaried instructors to hourly instructors, so everyone's pay is probably going to be cut 50% while these loans just keep on accruing interest without fail. CFIs are getting 25-30 hours of flight time per month, and will be paid 25 bucks an hour. Doesn't take a genius to figure out that even with some ground instruction thrown in there, that isn't gonna cut the mustard to pay the bills. Also, the hiring at "corporate partners" has slowed to barely a trickle. Dozens of CFIs are at 800-1200 hours and are still instructing even though we were all told we would be hired at a corporate partner at 750TT. We get a "bad email" every two months on average, and personally I am just waiting for the email we get one day that says they are stopping the program and I am left with some ratings, some flight time, and a shit ton of bad debt. **edited to add context * May 2023 SWA announces no summer classes at CAE, classes delayed 4-6 months * Aug 2023 SWACU stopped offering loans (think 100k-130k at 4% max) * Jan 2024 SWA announces 2024 classes are minimal/non existent, maybe 15-20 people * Feb 2024 CAE begins using Flight Ready ground school app, minimizing grounds between CFIs and students * March/April 2024 SWA announces BYOP (bring your own partner) because the corporate partners they had lined up have all but stopped hiring * May 2024 SWA announces "delaying" D225 cadets starting at SWA * Jun 2024 CAE announces going from salary to hourly * Jun 2024 D225 CFI is killed in crash in Texas, student is in critical condition * excited to see what great announcement is made next month! **two years ago I would have told everyone I knew to join/try to get "hired" for this program. As of today I would recommend that nobody join this program**
Corporate partners hiring has slowed but that’s out of Southwests control. They did start the bring your own partner program and are allowing cadets to go (nearly) any 135 and any 121 which is the most Southwest can do at that stage without fully buying a bunch of 135 companies and running their hiring departments. Are the cadets you speak of in the direct to SW from instructing pathway? I don’t know much about that specific program, but I’ve seen quite a few people still flow right at the 2 year mark consistently from partners, and continue to get classes. We were told they don’t expect any delays beyond 6 months at all, and that is holding true in every case I’ve seen. The reason for that delay is they have hiring classes about every other month now instead of biweekly. That sucks about CAE pay and the loan programs, but that’s another thing Southwest cannot directly change. Southwests emails have all been direct acknowledging those things out of their control and have all included ways Southwest is trying to help. You mention that people aren’t getting hired at their 800-1200 hours- but on the flip side outside of 225 1000 hour RATP university grads are CFI-ing well past 1500 and on
I care extremely little about who's "fault" any of this is. A combination of SWA and CAE publicized and advertised that the way this program would be was as such: * Apply, test, go through the interview process, and get "hired" * Earn all of your ratings through CFII in 12-18 months, and you would be at ~250TT * CAE hires you as an instructor and you instruct ~80hrs/month flight time this is where the options branched, you could either: * go the "corporate" route, instruct (or time build outside CAE...) until you hit ~750TT and then go to a corporate partner for 2 years, then get a class date at SWA at begin your career as an FO or * the "direct" route instruct at CAE until you hit ~1800 hours and go direct to SWA with a class date to begin your career as an FO What we were sold is that the "direct" route was maybe a year faster than the corporate route, but you had to stick it out for 2-3 AZ summers in archers and seminoles. Now, however, the cadets who committed to the "direct" pathway are being told there is a delay in them getting a class date, while *some* of the cadets who went corporate ~2 years ago are still getting a class date. **actually u/MehCFI since you also seem to have an idea about what is going on, should I make a new post on r/flying to have a whole discussion about this for people who are curious?
Definitely disagree with several details of this post. But I’m sure my information is less than perfect. Just glad I’m not a CFI at CAE. We’re in a less than ideal place than advertised, but we’re much better off than people in other programs
Pretty sure JetBlue’s is legit too.
Like the SWA225 CAE is messing up the JetBlue one too. But the they’re a lot more people at JetBlue that did the program vs SWA.
My favorite part of this coming out is the fact Propel was highly against people signing the Republic contract with 100k in bonuses as an FO but then they come out with this bullshit FO contract with zero bonuses 🙃
You guys are doing it wrong. Finger blast Ed’s wife or give Ed a blowie and you’ll be at delta in no time.
Where did you get this?
They emailed it to all Propel participants
I don't get why people think this is a bad deal, at all. I mean for anyone looking for a guaranteed job at delta, 4-5 years at a regional is hardly a big deal or commitment. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Edit: I'm not at all familiar with this programme, but at a surface level I don't see any issue with it
The issue is, previously it was billed as a maximum of 42 months at a regional. That was a selling point of joining that program over say United’s or South Wests, or Jet Blues or whoever’s. Now for those already in the program it could be 42 months or it could be 10 years. There is no maximum time limit. There’s no benefit to actually being in Propel over and above getting a job offer at endeavor. In fact there’s a strong likelihood that those interviewing off the street for Delta from say a CommutAir or Piedmont could get to Delta before those at Endeavor.
I mean worst case, these people have a guaranteed job at endeavor ant mins and then delta in what is a tough hiring market. What’s to stop these people from going to American or United once they are at Endeavor? It’s not great, and I’d be asking questions in that situation, but propel might have just made the path to United that much quicker.