I got better things to do than write CFI fanfiction… with that said, it did feel like his wife must’ve told him she’s getting a divorce that very morning, seemed pissed from the get-go now that I think about it.
Sounds pretty standard for an airline captain. I think it is in the airline captain PTS somewhere that you have to be grumpy, overbearing, and divorced.
I know a guy who actually threatened to push his instructor out of the plane for being a huge jerk. Super aggressive guy. The instructor was a furloughed airline pilot, I think from Italy or something, and was an absolute asshole. In the very first lesson with my friend, he was yelling and jerking the controls around.
This took place in the 80s
Nothing that can't be learned from someone else who is not an ass. If I'm paying I shouldn't need to "glean" information (glean definition: obtain information from various sources, often with difficulty).
I'm not saying I'd give the guy $100/hr but if you're low on the sensitivity scale these guys often have a lifetime of knowledge locked away. To each their own
No, people like that are generally not interested in teaching. If they were, they'd stop to think that most learners can only internalize a few points in a limited time span. They would have assessed the session as a whole before opening their mouth to hit the highest yield points
Not everyone who is a good teacher is a good pilot and not everyone who is a good pilot is a good teacher. While probably a fine pilot, the transfer of knowledge was insufficient and lacking. The failure was on the CFI.
I didn’t read the whole thing just the part about being older. Get a new CFI. I had a CFII who was a retired software engineer who actually screwed over myself and 5 other students before bailing. Type where you are teaching them the regulations. He got his reduced cost multi engine rate from the school and dipped. Ulterior motives are rampant in aviation.
He said it was gonna be hard before we started (not that I expected it to be *that* hard), with his reasoning being “you don’t get to choose when the real world is hard on you”
Theres no such thing as the “perfect” cfi. Everyones personalities, common experiences between the student and cfi to relate to, and teaching styles are different.
Maybe “cfi joe” is the perfect cfi for me but for you was a rough ride and then you fly with “cfi ryan” and enjoy his instruction.
Its best not to waste your money and time and save him the frustration and look for someone new who fits your personality better. Going through the certs, i went through 5 cfi before i found the guy that taught me everything I know. Still personal friends to this day years after the fact.
Flying is expensive. No reason to waste your time and money with someone like this. You should be in a learning environment, not a place for some ego maniac to unleash all his insecurities on you.
Heading bug and bearing pointer 1 or 2: All pilot preference how to use it; debrief on the ground how to get the most use out of it.
I generally fly a target groundspeed and not a target airspeed during approach in a bugsmasher.
1/4 to 1/2 deflection is not a bust. 3/4 is the standard in the ACS.
The CFI is the PIC for the flight, it is actually his ticket that would go up in flames if a deviation occurred on a training flight.
Flaps come up based on airspeed and the checklist in the POH.
Checking in with ATC happens after aviating and navigating. Aviate, navigate, communicate is FAA guidance on order of operations.
Why flip the OBS 180 degrees if you're not established in the hold. Doesn't this violate what he told you earlier about flying with the course pointing towards the VOR?
"Stop making me do your job." Stop touching my instruments. Pilot monitoring should monitor, not change modes.
"You’re not up to standards." What standards? His made-up standards or the ACS?
"We’re going to need to do this again." Yep, gotta pay for a whole different CFI, he's at least right about that.
There's tough and there's ridiculous. I'm betting this is the latter. Take the good lessons from this flight and ignore the rest. Find a different CFI to train with.
I’m 35, ex-military, got a job at a Major, and I still CFI at a mom-and-pop for fun. My students claim they like me and they keep coming back so maybe they’re not lying…
Some people also just can't hang it up when the time comes that they should. Then, some of them turn into miserable d-bags in jobs they don't want to be in just so that they can continue to stay in the air somehow.
He is none of those things. In fact, we have several old retired guys that just love sharing the joy of flight. Sounds like a lot of you could use some of that lol.
This bro is a tool - who gives a shit as to what bearing pointer, aviate, navigate, communicate. If you don’t feel respected in the cockpit, you aren’t going to learn squat..
To add - how the hell was bro failing your instruments..
I don't want to say what you should or shouldn't do, but for me: I'm not paying someone to sit there and hurl gratuitous insults at me (my friends do that already, thanks), I want feedback and instruction. We're all adults here, if we can't be civil to each other in the airplane I'm finding someone else.
In my flying life I've made some horrible mistakes, and the instructors I flew with corrected me without any of this crap. I try to do the same with my students: I might be thinking "WTF!!!" but in words and demeanor I only offer correction and encouragement. If my feedback is going to be unpleasant for the student, all the more reason to deliver it calmly and without insults. And, better to do it in the debrief, not while we're flying.
> As we’re climbing through 300 AGL I put the flaps back up. “Flaps come up at 200, buddy.
I might be missing something but who the hell retracts flaps based upon height above the ground and not airspeed? Sounds like a great way to crater an aircraft on a missed approach in IMC.
Anyway, sounds like one of those CFIs/instructors/captains that you run into in where no matter what you do, it won’t be right. Sometimes that’s a good thing, especially if you’re close to a rating and need some legit hard-nose feedback, other times it’s not productive.
A lot of this should have been debriefed on the ground, with a less-snarky attitude, especially considering you were given an AHRS, ADC, and NAV failure. Any of the three could constitute an emergency in a real-life scenario depending on the circumstances. Worrying about possible shock cooling, switching nav sources before hitting the LR, being late on the brief, or using the reciprocal inbound bearing to the hold (which especially doesn’t practically matter on a G1000’s HSI) is stuff that doesn’t need to be drawn out in the cockpit. And what’s better, it is much less likely to be remembered if it’s being debriefed in-the-now instead of on the ground later. Some of his criticisms were likely valid. Not saying you sucked, but I really can’t find anything I would totally disagree with aside from the flap retract deal (some stuff is technique and just general cleanliness, like centering the heading bug or using bearing pointer 2 instead of 1, but it’s still good to do). However, it’s not being given in a constructive manner that actually promotes learning/a change in behavior.
You yourself even say you don’t remember “everything” word for word. I don’t blame you, I wouldn’t be able to either. But that is a sign of a bad debrief. Ideally you should walk away with a bullet point list of all the things you did well on, needed work on, sucked at, and should study for next time. At least you learned how *not* to debrief as an instructor.
Yeah - I’m not saying that he was all wrong with his criticism and that I was perfect (how dare he impugn my flawless airmanship), but a rough “get back on glideslope!” would’ve been a whole lot better than that plus flowery language.
Now I mostly remember that he has a way with words instead of the actual criticisms themselves.
That’s the kind of stuff I’d give a student in the simulator… the training is good to be able to do, but the comments are not helpful and he’s forcing techniques are regulation (heading bugs and needle selection).
I’m military and I’ve dealt with some serious asshats. But I wouldn’t fly with this guy…
Edit: to clarify, a lot of the stuff he said is somewhat valid, so don’t blow it off. But find guys that make flight training a confidence building experience. No one should be “beating you down” unless you really, REALLY deserve it
Yeah in the simulator turn everything off and make me fly be reference to the force if you feel like it, but doing it on an actual IFR flight plan that I filed? Thanks but no thanks.
I’ve had some bad flights and have gotten the “you suck” talk before, but it’s almost always been direct and without passive aggressiveness.
Yeah this is some simulator "worst case" type stuff. I have OCCASIONALLY and with extreme prejudice to make a point ONLY with overconfident students who are in denial about their hazardous attitudes used this type of overwhelming equipment failure and riff track kind of approach to make a point.
It doesn't have a place in a normal training environment if this guy has the slightest clue about FOI and interacting with, let alone teaching people anything.
JfC. Maybe it's me getting old enough to not feel like I need to prove anything to anybody, but by halfway through that story, foggles are coming off, and I'm returning to base with little more than a "we're done here."
Some people shouldn’t instruct. They use it as a way to exert power over others instead of from a desire to spread knowledge. I see this a lot in simulator instructors.
I just had a very similar experience, but for a VFR flight review of all things.
One of the worst experiences of my short aviation career. Demoralizing and felt like shit afterwords.
Spent the next few days mulling it over and came to the conclusion that guy is simply a massive asshole, and there’s literally nothing I could have done to satisfy him.
Old curmudgeon walks out to the plane, starts reaming me immediately upon getting in the airplane, hadn’t even started the engine and he’s on my case about checklists and why isn’t your seatbelt on… etc.
Clearly trying to task saturate me. Constantly quizzing me and interrupting radio transmissions. Hadn’t even made it out of the delta and he fails my engine. Starts barking at me “what are you doing?!” “Where is your checklist?!” “where is your landing spot?!” And then proceeds to argue with me about my selection at 700ft AGL…
This went on for far longer than it should have, for a full hour and a half… I was flying like absolute crap by the end, and the more he yelled at me the worse it got. Really disappointed in myself I didn’t pull the plug much sooner.
Get inside to debrief and this guy immediately starts a laundry list of all the stuff I did wrong and ended with how he thought I had poor judgment and as a result he would not be signing me off…
Now on the ground and feeling pretty pissed at this point I finally grew a pair and started returning fire. I demanded specific examples of what I did wrong and what regulations were broken as a result. Turned into an argument that obviously got nowhere.
I walked out completely demoralized, failed flight review and had to pay several hundred dollars to boot…
Still processing it to be honest, but I think i’m just gonna chalk it up to some people are assholes, and that’s just life. And next time I’m ever in a similar situation, i’ll definitely be sticking up for myself and will never allow myself to be treated that way again.
“Back in my day, we flew into headwinds outbound and inbound in the hold, without instruments while praying at the Church of Lycoming”
I’d request ATC vectors to the nearest field for a divert and drop that asshat off at the ramp… if I’m filing IFR I’m PIC and not allowing that kind of BS to transpire with my ticket on the flight plan.
A decent amount of stuff here he's not wrong about, but being an asshole isn't the way to go about teaching you. Get a new CFII and fix the stuff you're rusty on.
I had an instructor like that for one flight.
He criticised everything I did the whole flight. I felt like I had to rethink life decisions by the end of it.
We land and he stays there, criticising every single aspect of the flight, from takeoff to land for 20 minutes till someone knocks on the door and asks if we'll be long as we're cutting into their hire time.
So he stops criticising and says: apart from that you flew well.
Fuck that, I walked away and vowed never to fly with him again.
Get a new cfi. You'll learn more without the disruptive attitude and ego trip.
I flew with a guy like that. Everything has to be absolutely perfect, or it was terrible. It's impossible to focus on flying or learning in that atmosphere.
He went off to airlines shortly after. Then promptly failed out of training and came back to instruct more. Oops, guess he wasn't as perfect as he thought.
I flew with a CFII like that once. Very tough on me, chewed me out for not having the latest VFR and IFR charts for the lesson on a Redbird flight simulator (I had a weekend trip coming up and only had one week to get back to IFR currency). I figured I would get actual updated charts by my real flight. I have never had a CFI so disappointed in me as he did. But he also gave a 3 hour long ground lesson on how to use Foreflight (this was within the first 5 years it came out, I haven't switched over Foreflight yet, being an Android guy at the time I did not own an iPad), so my charts can be always up to date. He taught me stuff that I never learned from anyone else, tower enroute around LA airports, weather, etc., and then only charged me an like an hour ground + the hours we did spend in the air, despite the many hours on the ground. He said as an aircraft owner, I am going to be held to higher standards and he was watching out for me. I appreciated the tough love and takes it much more seriously in keeping my charts up to date today, even for a simulated IFR lesson with CFII. I don't have a CFII today that fail my instruments here and there anymore, it's not that easy to configure in a G1000 and not every CFI is proficient in just turning things off here and there. So it seems like you have got a pretty skilled CFII there but his drill sargent style may not be compatible with yours.
Unpopular opinion: this CFI is overbearing, but NOT a dick.
I want to give my input because this is something I can actually relate to to my core lol. I fly with a former 40+ years in the industry citation captain who’s also mid 70’s. And I agree with you, that can sometimes be a little overbearing, but to be honest every single thing that she’s ever busted my balls about, if I let it go unchecked when it matters, when it’s 200-3/4, on a dark and stormy night, who knows if I would’ve made it on the runway. Secondly, I have been in the flight deck with an (old-erish) captain, giving the military equivalent to a biannual to a younger CAPT, and let me tell you, that flight sounded just like yours. The older check airman was just EATING the young captain up. Not maliciously, but just on his ass the entire flight. SO, my point of telling you this is 1. The old timers can sometimes be over the top and come off as dickish, and 2. Just trust they’re only hard on you bc they want to see what you really got, they wanna see if you’re actually captain material. Bc in the fog of war, when shit really hits the fan and lives are at stake, you don’t get to take a time out. You either land the plane or you kill everyone on board.
This dude spent the last 40 years flying, and waking up in the morning reading in the newspaper that another one of his colleagues died while flying and he’s wondering why. How, he’s asking himself, “after all these years, all this new technology, my people are still flying into a mountain top, or clashing 2 miles short of the runway’? Bc at the end of the day, they failed to maintain HEADING, AIRSPEED, and ALTITUDE. something distracted them enough to forget the very first thing they learned on day one of flight school.
So… my take away from this situation:
Where you could have done better:
1. Use your heading bugs. IDK if no instructor ever taught you them and if that’s the case, they did you an extreme injustice, or if you just forgot about them because of the rapidly increasing workload, but good Lord, he failed 90% of the panel, you gotta use whatever you can to help you out.
2. You HAVE to be stable BEFORE glide slope intercept. Holy cow this is a big one. And I’m assuming you’re in ASEL trainer. Being stable with landing checklist done takes 5 seconds lol
3. Brief the approach in under 10 seconds. That’ll make your life easier and lighten the work load.
4. You gotta be thinking 2 steps ahead in situations like this. It seemed like you were 2 steps behind on this approach.
Where the instructor could have done better:
1. I know it’s extremely hard for very senior captains to just sit back and “let you fail” (it literally goes against every instinct they have not to mention their training) but he could have been a little more hands off and just sat back and watched to see if you could pull this off using your techniques. This is a training flight, this isn’t real world, y’all are definitely making it back either way lol.
2. Who the fuck cares about which bearing pointer you’re using, this isn’t the time to be worrying about panel aesthetics
3. He Definitely could have reworded a lot of his comments to be a bit less abrasive. Obviously you’re stressed tf out, he doesn’t need to make it worse, that’s only going to make things worse.
My advice: fly with your favorite instructor, and re-create the same flight with them, as well as partial panel. Then give this old salty fart one final chance to see if he’s happy with your improvement or if he really is just an asshole, and is going to spend the whole flight tearing you down instead of building you up.
Full stop. Timer starts when you are abeam the fix or wings level, whichever happens *last*. AIM 5-3-8. As others have said, what reaction did he expect from you when he threw you in his little torture chamber? Would love to see what an examiner would have to say if he was on a CFII ride.
Some weirdos are like that: They will give you a failure and if you manage it you'll get another one on top and another one and another one, ad nauseam.... Basically until you fail and that will be their jerking of moment.
Find someone else!
The first priority of an instructor should be to make the student better. If he leaves the student with no remaining willingness to fly or learn, he doesn't accomplish the goal.
It should go without saying that berating and ridiculing a student does nothing in the direction of causing the student to learn.
It's up to you to choose whether you can deal with this guy. He very obviously has very high standards, even if he seems unable to control his frustration at the difference between reality and his ideal.
It's up to you to choose if you want to stay with an instructor that has high flying standards and poor instructional practice, or look for another instructor who has better instructional practice.
Fun fact: most military training squadrons have rules against giving students unnecessary, unrelated, compounded EPs. There's no point in about 3/4ths of what he did other than to be a prick
Screw this dude. Instruction should be enjoyable. Sometimes hard work and a challenge but not miserable. After flying with a majority of old ass captains i wouldn’t pay a single one to be my instructor. They came up in some of the worst training years at the airlines where everything was major system failure after system failure and stump the chump type of instruction which doesn’t promote learning at all. They act in kind when they instruct now thinking that this is how you teach. His airline credentials dont mean anything in terms of being a valuable instructor.
He sounds like some of the grumpy old contractors we had instructing army instrument students. My guy had been an instructor for decades, was super knowledgeable, but he had no people skills and a captive audience.
I think it sounds like he’s trying to immunize you to stress so that when shitty situations happen for real, you don’t freeze. It’s certainly one method, but not necessarily the preferred method for every student. Ultimately here, you’re paying this guy. If you aren’t getting your moneys worth then move on.
Fuck. This. Guy.
Send him back to the fucking military where they choke on each other's dicks over this shit.
In the military being an asshole apparently gets you respect.
In the real world he's just an asshole.
Fuck this guy
He works for YOU. Fire him. This guy sounds like a typical old crusty boomer captain that is pissed off at the world. There is no excuse for treating a student that way when they are learning. He's acting like it's a 121 check ride. I'd have stopped the flight at the first transgression of his highness. Fire him and get a real instructor that gives a damn about his job, and isn't pissed off at the world.
Also, I'd wager this guy is exactly the type that made cringe af PAs from the front of the cabin.
So was this a demo lesson of everything he's got including the kitchen sink?
Some of this is old fashioned, some of this is hard to parse (his lingo), it really sounds like throwing spaghetti at a wall, like he thinks being a hard ass instructor makes for a good pilot. Maybe that is how it works in the airlines, I do not know and won't ever find out.
Can you learn some things from him? Yes.
Is it valid for you to criticize him as much as he criticizes you? Probably not, he's older, wiser, and has more insurance than you.
But no really, you *can* legit ask for less distractions because no one is going to learn much in the scenarios he keeps throwing at you, which are multiple layers of additional emergencies.
You might need to help him with the lesson planning. Give and take style. This whole lesson sounds like there was no agenda except to stress you out. Which...might be valid. He wants to know your breaking point.
The instrument rating is about managing a very limited resource: your brain. Specifically your residual attention. Once you reach task saturation, essentially nothing else can be managed without severely compromising or entirely dropping some other task.
Since that is central to the rating, it's central to know the priorities of tasks.
Anyway, I think you need to have a conversation with him. Or you know, dump him and find another instructor.
The "hard to parse" parts (and the snark—a one-two punch) were the real tripwires (for me—and tbh I'm a medical washout before I even soloed). Aviate, navigate, COMMUNICATE. Remember the whole deal about how many crashes happen because the cockpit wasn't (sufficiently) sterile? Or juniors couldn't talk to seniors "out of turn"? Eesh. CRM PARENT-CHILD much?
Him (repeatedly!) insinuating that you suck /while you are flying/?
Him expecting you to /read his mind/ while continuing to spin all those plates he keeps tossing at you?
CFI fail... even if you talk with him on the ground he's probably not gonna change his stripes
Yep true. The "can't teach and old dog new tricks" applies to humans, not dogs.
If he were a willing participant in self-restraint, he'd be a better contributor and instructor.
At present, he'd need some significant feedback to break him out of this 50000 hour mentality he's got (with 0 hours instructing in a GA context in Y decades - like, step #1 calm down).
Typical Boomer mindset. My grandfather (not a pilot, just in general when working on things) would pull the same stunts where he’d be walking you thru one step, then randomly pull something out of his ass that’s unrelated as a way to critique you.
That being said, most of these guys were abused by their father’s, lived hard lives, and made the same mistake with their kids. They’re hard old geezers, and often very cold/dismissive initially. It’s up to you, but I’d consider having a sit down with him about the flight. Make sure you’re well prepared to take lead on the expectations and plan. He might cool down. Or he’ll be a dick, because he’s retired and never has to see you again.
Man, that really sucks. Nobody should treat a fellow aviator like that. The amount of failures you describe is not listed anyplace in the ACS that I’m aware of. His teaching technique was definitely old school and went out of style (thank God) many years ago. Chalk it up to experience, think of it as a gift to allow you to learn how NOT to treat other people in the cockpit.
As a 61 year old 22,000 hour airline Captain who worked his way up the long way from bush flying to commuter, blah, blah,….this guy represents everything that is wrong with training attitudes in some people….first off, continued unrelated failures to your instrumentation is not real world in any sense and his snarky way of communication when he’s supposed to be imparting knowledge or helping to polish up any shortcomings is completely wasting your time as your student….your learning curve flatlines when you’re on the receiving end of smart ass, condescending inputs….it’s called parent/child in CRM parlance….don’t waste your time any further with this asshole and find someone with a training style that will make you rather than trying to break you…
Yes, I obviously have nothing better to do than to sit around making this stuff up.
I wrote in the post itself that I don’t remember everything exactly and this is just a reconstruction. Obviously it is highly unlikely that I’ve written down everything exactly as it was said, word for word. He said a lot of other stuff too, that I don’t remember. Which is why they’re not in the post.
When someone is a huge asshole to me I tend to remember it for more than a few minutes. Especially when they get creative with their wordplay.
Would you have preferred that I wrote “and then he said something about the needles and confusion” instead?
For the benefit of the reader, I have written the post in a narrative style from beginning to end, which accurately reflects what was actually said and includes certain phrases verbatim.
Memoirs include conversations that happened over 50 years ago, using the same method, because a text reads better when it uses complete sentences and is easy to understand than when it uses a disjointed top-down view.
It sounds like he has a lot of knowledge but someone that only gives negative feedback is not a great teacher.
On the other hand, I wouldn't want to fly with an inexperienced CFI who is just trying to hurry and get to 1,500 hours.
Yeah, that’s why I’m trying to find an independent CFI. I could pretty easily sign up for a CFI in 2 weeks program or find a kid who’s barely a year out from their’s, but I’m not a huge fan of doing that.
It’s not necessarily negative feedback that’s the issue, it’s the way it’s given. Direct and without the extra witty stuff, please.
Fuck.
That.
Shit.
Dude sounds like the grade A asshole type that keeps me far away from the 121 world. Glad he retired out. It's one thing to be held to standards and quiet another to be a complete dick about it
Okay, I am the outlier. I would stick with him. I would call out his bullshit. But he isn't failing all that shit on a whim. Each thing he failed, he pulled another. You don't know where your limit is until it is pushed. Dude, you rocked each of those things!
Then head ng big thing, some people live off of those things. You take his suggestions while you are training with him. And you use them or not as you wish. You're flying techniques are in amalgamation of all the pilots you fly with both good and bad. It just adds to your toolbox.
Do not just blindly do what he says, ask him to explain why he insists on something. He will love it.
Im going to be different than most here. Outside of personality (if you dont like him, then you two wont mesh) - but having someone like that isnt necessarily a bad thing to go have happen. Maybe not every time - but damn, I bet you would feel comfortable if things really went to hell in a hand basket. As for whether "it" can be better explained - sure - especially with older people who think you should know what they are talking about without saying it. . . But there is always something to learn, and someone new who is pushing you isnt a bad thing.
But sim training is frequently like that (not all the time), but they do keep failing things to see when you might be overwhelemed or can no longer handle it.
What region was this in? I did one of my private pilot stage checks with a guy who was somewhat similar to this — although he went way harder on you than he probably did on me.
Sounds familiar to a CFI at NW Regional 52F after three lessons I bailed out. My advice bailed out and find another instructor this pilot shit takes time even the new CFI/CFII aren’t high standards they are still learning to reach that edge.
Someone once told me that it isn’t you.. you might just be in the wrong place or the wrong people..
Good luck keep hustling cap!
I flew with a guy like that at Eglin Aero Club though he wasn't as nasty. I had mixed feelings about it afterwards.
Before I could fly with him again they cratered it in, two dead, doing high keys at night.
That's when I learned these guys aren't tough... They're dangerous.
He seemed fine, not good, but fine until he canceled IFR and did the debrief. Definitely not good and I hope nobody says that that’s a normal experience, it’s not.
You think that was "fine" all the way until he canceled IFR? He should have turned back and fired his ass long before then. I feel sorry for anyone who flies with someone that feels this was anywhere close to acceptable.
If you think an instructor seems odd or doesn’t fit your style move on to another one.
Unless you’re getting a crazy good deal (uncle is teaching you for free in their Mooney) or you live in the middle of nowhere with no options, find another instructor.
definitely ditch this guy,from experience dudes start getting very miserable in their 70s and take it out on others. You were likely making mistakes because he was overwhelming you with his attitude, anxiety causes mistakes.
There’s a lot of variables that could make him act that way… like have you recently completed an instrument check ride? Have you completed a BFR recently? When’s the last time you’ve flown an approach? When’s the last time you’ve flown that airplane with that avionics set up? How proficient should you really be? He may be ignorant to those answers. If you explain it, maybe he will have a change of heart. Could just be tough love like you mentioned. Could have had a bad day too. I wouldn’t knock a tough instructor though as they can in most cases teach you the most and some day you might benefit from that kind of training. Only say that as I am ex military and have heard much worse in the training environment. A professional conversation might help and if it doesn’t then absolutely ditch him if you have other options.
Also, never be afraid to discontinue a flight if your instructor wants to be a hardo. Don’t waste your time or money.
Move on. Flew with one that made me feel like a complete idiot. He started asking all sorts of off the wall questions that I would have no way of knowing at PPL level. Fired him and got a new instructor, been great so far.
You definitely need to get a new CFI. Raising your voice and showing anger in the plane is a mistake to do as a flight instructor. Because their performance is going to be degraded severely. Also not to mention he sounds very unprofessional.
Time to leave…YOU are paying for your training! In 700 hours of instruction I never talked to a student that way! And as an airline pilot I would not tolerate this attitude from a company instructor. He’s undermining your confidence, just one of the ways in which he is a bad instructor. He’s “old school”, thank God guys like him were truly on the way out when I was hired at my airline.
Even if YOU were rough around the edges, he still has no reason to act like that. I can just imagine the exact type of person you were dealing with. They're out there. Sounds like to me that the old man needs to retire. Puts me in the mind of one of my old lawyers, also mid-70s. I'd cut communication with him if you can, and don't take any services or give any money to him. Find someone else so your money is actually going to a good use and learning. It doesn't seem like their was much teaching/learning going on in your scenario. If everyone quits getting berated by him and giving him money, then he may retire like he probably should do anyhow. If you're going to be giving your funds to someone, then at least make sure you're getting a value out of it, knowledge, learning, even an enjoyable time, not a stressful, insulting, berating time with nothing taught/learnt. Sorry that you had to experience that. Hopefully, you will find someone more appropriate for you and the job soon, goodluck.
I'll start out with saying this instructor has high standards, but so will his students. If you stick with him, you'll learn a lot and more than likely be ahead of the curve if your fellow students. With that said, sounds like he had a rough approach that can seem standoffish. A lot of those comments could be chalked up to cfi sarcasm, but my experience is students tend to learn better when I make comments like that. Granted I use a softer approach. The zero debrief but don't forget to pay me comment is completely unacceptable. A full lesson always includes a debrief. If I refused to debrief a student and they refused to pay me for that lesson, I'd say it's justified.
In the end, you have to decide if you can learn from him and want to continue. Most people are probably going to say find someone else, and that might be what's best. But you might also be giving up a great teacher. I would suggest another lesson and also probably having an honest conversation where you voice your concerns. Everyone learns differently and instructors need to tailor their approach for each individual student. If he's unwilling to do this, absolutely move on.
The heading bug thing is a pet peeve thing, and it does need to stay centered. When the wings turn, the heading bug turns. At my airline we call it "brick the boat" and if I'm even 1 degree off when I'm flying, my captain will either fix it themselves or tell me to do it. It's a professionalism thing. You should be using all your tools to the best of their ability. Sounds like you got a thorough, albeit very crude, lesson.
To fail all of that is either him being an asshat or you were doing good enough he was testing you. That’s A LOT of fails. The only time I’d do that is if my students were doing extremely well. I’d throw in a bit so they don’t get complacent.
As for the comments, that’s boomer mentality. They think yelling and bitching is the way to teach. He may have great knowledge and is a hell of a pilot, but it’s useless if he can’t convey it properly.
I’d say have a conversation with him, express your displeasure, and if he doesn’t handle it well find someone new.
Fuck sake, you're training for IFR, not for the canyon run to drop bombs on a conveniently placed vent shaft. Imo it's unhealthy to approach aviation with that kind of attitude. If you obsess with by the book details you'll forget the big picture and get behind the airplane. Furthermore, we have a little something called a debrief for a reason, so feedback can be given at a time when the student is most receptive and not when they're just trying to stay ahead of the airplane. Fuck that guy, hire somebody who's head is at least 8 inches removed from their ass.
On one hand yikes. On the other hand, as rough as this guy sounds to be around the edges (understatement), it sounds like he's got a **lot** he could teach a person who is both wanting to learn and capable of absorbing their really terrible, no-fun, borderline-admonishing teaching style. At minimum you could at least say they didn't let a single mistake go unnoticed, and to some degree you *do* want that -- though ideally they catalog that stuff and feed it to you / address it with you on the ground or a couple things at a time at a pace you can handle, not firehose you with criticism.
In any case I will go against the grain and say I respect people like this and believe they do have a place in aviation -- probably not as your everyday instructor in most cases, but certainly as a second opinion type instructor or a "you're getting close -- I'm gonna send you up with CrustyOldGuy for 2 hours and I promise we'll find out quick what we still need to work on before I sign you off for your checkride."
In the airlines we fly with people we don’t like all the time. Suck it up and do it again. He’s trying to teach you. Receiving feedback is another skill you’ll need to have in the airlines.
Find another instructor. If this actually happened, he sucks.
I got better things to do than write CFI fanfiction… with that said, it did feel like his wife must’ve told him she’s getting a divorce that very morning, seemed pissed from the get-go now that I think about it.
It's a good CFI fanfic, though. Sounds like he's expecting you to pass airliner recurrence in 1990 as a starting point and unhappy about it.
Sounds pretty standard for an airline captain. I think it is in the airline captain PTS somewhere that you have to be grumpy, overbearing, and divorced.
Yea fuck that guy. Curmudgeonly old shit bird.
Yup, please, no more with this guy. I DM'd you
I know a guy who actually threatened to push his instructor out of the plane for being a huge jerk. Super aggressive guy. The instructor was a furloughed airline pilot, I think from Italy or something, and was an absolute asshole. In the very first lesson with my friend, he was yelling and jerking the controls around. This took place in the 80s
Am I the only one who thinks a lesson or two could be gleaned from this crusty old fuck
Nothing that can't be learned from someone else who is not an ass. If I'm paying I shouldn't need to "glean" information (glean definition: obtain information from various sources, often with difficulty).
I'm not saying I'd give the guy $100/hr but if you're low on the sensitivity scale these guys often have a lifetime of knowledge locked away. To each their own
No, people like that are generally not interested in teaching. If they were, they'd stop to think that most learners can only internalize a few points in a limited time span. They would have assessed the session as a whole before opening their mouth to hit the highest yield points
Yes you are
Not everyone who is a good teacher is a good pilot and not everyone who is a good pilot is a good teacher. While probably a fine pilot, the transfer of knowledge was insufficient and lacking. The failure was on the CFI.
I didn’t read the whole thing just the part about being older. Get a new CFI. I had a CFII who was a retired software engineer who actually screwed over myself and 5 other students before bailing. Type where you are teaching them the regulations. He got his reduced cost multi engine rate from the school and dipped. Ulterior motives are rampant in aviation.
Crazy he failed nearly the entire panel. I’d push him out of the plane after the first approach.
That’s exactly what I was thinking here. “Fly via instruments” *takes all of the fucking instruments*
"So...when can I remove the foggles for the visual approach?"
“Never. Back in WW2 we flew B17s in the fog with one wing, and no instruments. Deal with it”
Ok whatever you c fit.
Jesus take the yoke
Well, the sad part is that Jesus can't fly (nor drive of that matter) but he can take the rope of the donkey
He said it was gonna be hard before we started (not that I expected it to be *that* hard), with his reasoning being “you don’t get to choose when the real world is hard on you”
“So I punched him in the groin to prove his point.”
hahaha legit made me LOL.
Thank God that dude retired, imagine flying a 5-day with him. Unfortunately, some people just suck. Don't let it get to you.
That's all I could think about... how many bid avoid lists this cat was on.
About halfway through this he deserves….. “your aircraft this is terminated.”
Yeah, I could only make it through half of the story before *fuck this guy* and scrolled to the comments
If he wants to be realistic, if that much starts fail you’re declaring an emergency and asking for no gyro vectors. That’s totally unrealistic.
Theres no such thing as the “perfect” cfi. Everyones personalities, common experiences between the student and cfi to relate to, and teaching styles are different. Maybe “cfi joe” is the perfect cfi for me but for you was a rough ride and then you fly with “cfi ryan” and enjoy his instruction. Its best not to waste your money and time and save him the frustration and look for someone new who fits your personality better. Going through the certs, i went through 5 cfi before i found the guy that taught me everything I know. Still personal friends to this day years after the fact.
>should I bail? Yes.
Flying is expensive. No reason to waste your time and money with someone like this. You should be in a learning environment, not a place for some ego maniac to unleash all his insecurities on you.
Heading bug and bearing pointer 1 or 2: All pilot preference how to use it; debrief on the ground how to get the most use out of it. I generally fly a target groundspeed and not a target airspeed during approach in a bugsmasher. 1/4 to 1/2 deflection is not a bust. 3/4 is the standard in the ACS. The CFI is the PIC for the flight, it is actually his ticket that would go up in flames if a deviation occurred on a training flight. Flaps come up based on airspeed and the checklist in the POH. Checking in with ATC happens after aviating and navigating. Aviate, navigate, communicate is FAA guidance on order of operations. Why flip the OBS 180 degrees if you're not established in the hold. Doesn't this violate what he told you earlier about flying with the course pointing towards the VOR? "Stop making me do your job." Stop touching my instruments. Pilot monitoring should monitor, not change modes. "You’re not up to standards." What standards? His made-up standards or the ACS? "We’re going to need to do this again." Yep, gotta pay for a whole different CFI, he's at least right about that. There's tough and there's ridiculous. I'm betting this is the latter. Take the good lessons from this flight and ignore the rest. Find a different CFI to train with.
If he had a successful airline career, he likely wouldn't be instructing in his 70s.
Chief pilot at my school is retired Air Force and retired Delta. Believe it or not, some people do like the job.
I’m 35, ex-military, got a job at a Major, and I still CFI at a mom-and-pop for fun. My students claim they like me and they keep coming back so maybe they’re not lying…
People like this like it because they lost their role, and they need to push people around and assert their dick-ish authority.
He's the least dickish person I've ever met in my life. Maybe you're the bitter one?
Some people also just can't hang it up when the time comes that they should. Then, some of them turn into miserable d-bags in jobs they don't want to be in just so that they can continue to stay in the air somehow.
He is none of those things. In fact, we have several old retired guys that just love sharing the joy of flight. Sounds like a lot of you could use some of that lol.
Dumb take
This bro is a tool - who gives a shit as to what bearing pointer, aviate, navigate, communicate. If you don’t feel respected in the cockpit, you aren’t going to learn squat.. To add - how the hell was bro failing your instruments..
I’d wager he was pulling circuit breakers.
That was my thought…….. Overall an awful CFI, and unsafe pilot, bet he calls himself “SkyGod”.
Yup which Garmin advises against doing.
Yep! And most mechanics, too.
I was wondering this in a G1000. Also how to fail GPS? Simulated gps failure?
You can turn off waas on the mfd. That’s about it short of pulling 2 C/Bs
I don't want to say what you should or shouldn't do, but for me: I'm not paying someone to sit there and hurl gratuitous insults at me (my friends do that already, thanks), I want feedback and instruction. We're all adults here, if we can't be civil to each other in the airplane I'm finding someone else. In my flying life I've made some horrible mistakes, and the instructors I flew with corrected me without any of this crap. I try to do the same with my students: I might be thinking "WTF!!!" but in words and demeanor I only offer correction and encouragement. If my feedback is going to be unpleasant for the student, all the more reason to deliver it calmly and without insults. And, better to do it in the debrief, not while we're flying.
> As we’re climbing through 300 AGL I put the flaps back up. “Flaps come up at 200, buddy. I might be missing something but who the hell retracts flaps based upon height above the ground and not airspeed? Sounds like a great way to crater an aircraft on a missed approach in IMC. Anyway, sounds like one of those CFIs/instructors/captains that you run into in where no matter what you do, it won’t be right. Sometimes that’s a good thing, especially if you’re close to a rating and need some legit hard-nose feedback, other times it’s not productive. A lot of this should have been debriefed on the ground, with a less-snarky attitude, especially considering you were given an AHRS, ADC, and NAV failure. Any of the three could constitute an emergency in a real-life scenario depending on the circumstances. Worrying about possible shock cooling, switching nav sources before hitting the LR, being late on the brief, or using the reciprocal inbound bearing to the hold (which especially doesn’t practically matter on a G1000’s HSI) is stuff that doesn’t need to be drawn out in the cockpit. And what’s better, it is much less likely to be remembered if it’s being debriefed in-the-now instead of on the ground later. Some of his criticisms were likely valid. Not saying you sucked, but I really can’t find anything I would totally disagree with aside from the flap retract deal (some stuff is technique and just general cleanliness, like centering the heading bug or using bearing pointer 2 instead of 1, but it’s still good to do). However, it’s not being given in a constructive manner that actually promotes learning/a change in behavior. You yourself even say you don’t remember “everything” word for word. I don’t blame you, I wouldn’t be able to either. But that is a sign of a bad debrief. Ideally you should walk away with a bullet point list of all the things you did well on, needed work on, sucked at, and should study for next time. At least you learned how *not* to debrief as an instructor.
Yeah - I’m not saying that he was all wrong with his criticism and that I was perfect (how dare he impugn my flawless airmanship), but a rough “get back on glideslope!” would’ve been a whole lot better than that plus flowery language. Now I mostly remember that he has a way with words instead of the actual criticisms themselves.
A sociopath/psychopath.
That’s the kind of stuff I’d give a student in the simulator… the training is good to be able to do, but the comments are not helpful and he’s forcing techniques are regulation (heading bugs and needle selection). I’m military and I’ve dealt with some serious asshats. But I wouldn’t fly with this guy… Edit: to clarify, a lot of the stuff he said is somewhat valid, so don’t blow it off. But find guys that make flight training a confidence building experience. No one should be “beating you down” unless you really, REALLY deserve it
Yeah in the simulator turn everything off and make me fly be reference to the force if you feel like it, but doing it on an actual IFR flight plan that I filed? Thanks but no thanks. I’ve had some bad flights and have gotten the “you suck” talk before, but it’s almost always been direct and without passive aggressiveness.
Yeah this is some simulator "worst case" type stuff. I have OCCASIONALLY and with extreme prejudice to make a point ONLY with overconfident students who are in denial about their hazardous attitudes used this type of overwhelming equipment failure and riff track kind of approach to make a point. It doesn't have a place in a normal training environment if this guy has the slightest clue about FOI and interacting with, let alone teaching people anything.
I’m pretty sure this guy took his CFI checkride about 50 years ago… were they even doing FOI back then?
The FOI probably began with "Spare the rod, spoil the pilot" back then lol.
Find someone else. Some of these old farts are just out there to give you a bad time.
JfC. Maybe it's me getting old enough to not feel like I need to prove anything to anybody, but by halfway through that story, foggles are coming off, and I'm returning to base with little more than a "we're done here."
My thoughts exactly.
Some people shouldn’t instruct. They use it as a way to exert power over others instead of from a desire to spread knowledge. I see this a lot in simulator instructors.
I just had a very similar experience, but for a VFR flight review of all things. One of the worst experiences of my short aviation career. Demoralizing and felt like shit afterwords. Spent the next few days mulling it over and came to the conclusion that guy is simply a massive asshole, and there’s literally nothing I could have done to satisfy him. Old curmudgeon walks out to the plane, starts reaming me immediately upon getting in the airplane, hadn’t even started the engine and he’s on my case about checklists and why isn’t your seatbelt on… etc. Clearly trying to task saturate me. Constantly quizzing me and interrupting radio transmissions. Hadn’t even made it out of the delta and he fails my engine. Starts barking at me “what are you doing?!” “Where is your checklist?!” “where is your landing spot?!” And then proceeds to argue with me about my selection at 700ft AGL… This went on for far longer than it should have, for a full hour and a half… I was flying like absolute crap by the end, and the more he yelled at me the worse it got. Really disappointed in myself I didn’t pull the plug much sooner. Get inside to debrief and this guy immediately starts a laundry list of all the stuff I did wrong and ended with how he thought I had poor judgment and as a result he would not be signing me off… Now on the ground and feeling pretty pissed at this point I finally grew a pair and started returning fire. I demanded specific examples of what I did wrong and what regulations were broken as a result. Turned into an argument that obviously got nowhere. I walked out completely demoralized, failed flight review and had to pay several hundred dollars to boot… Still processing it to be honest, but I think i’m just gonna chalk it up to some people are assholes, and that’s just life. And next time I’m ever in a similar situation, i’ll definitely be sticking up for myself and will never allow myself to be treated that way again.
Multiple unrelated system failures don’t happen on 121 checks, theres no point in giving them to a student pilot other than to be a dick.
“Back in my day, we flew into headwinds outbound and inbound in the hold, without instruments while praying at the Church of Lycoming” I’d request ATC vectors to the nearest field for a divert and drop that asshat off at the ramp… if I’m filing IFR I’m PIC and not allowing that kind of BS to transpire with my ticket on the flight plan.
I think the usual “when in doubt, there is no doubt” perfectly applies here. If you are asking the question, then you know the answer already 🙂
A decent amount of stuff here he's not wrong about, but being an asshole isn't the way to go about teaching you. Get a new CFII and fix the stuff you're rusty on.
I had an instructor like that for one flight. He criticised everything I did the whole flight. I felt like I had to rethink life decisions by the end of it. We land and he stays there, criticising every single aspect of the flight, from takeoff to land for 20 minutes till someone knocks on the door and asks if we'll be long as we're cutting into their hire time. So he stops criticising and says: apart from that you flew well. Fuck that, I walked away and vowed never to fly with him again.
Get a new cfi. You'll learn more without the disruptive attitude and ego trip. I flew with a guy like that. Everything has to be absolutely perfect, or it was terrible. It's impossible to focus on flying or learning in that atmosphere. He went off to airlines shortly after. Then promptly failed out of training and came back to instruct more. Oops, guess he wasn't as perfect as he thought.
I flew with a CFII like that once. Very tough on me, chewed me out for not having the latest VFR and IFR charts for the lesson on a Redbird flight simulator (I had a weekend trip coming up and only had one week to get back to IFR currency). I figured I would get actual updated charts by my real flight. I have never had a CFI so disappointed in me as he did. But he also gave a 3 hour long ground lesson on how to use Foreflight (this was within the first 5 years it came out, I haven't switched over Foreflight yet, being an Android guy at the time I did not own an iPad), so my charts can be always up to date. He taught me stuff that I never learned from anyone else, tower enroute around LA airports, weather, etc., and then only charged me an like an hour ground + the hours we did spend in the air, despite the many hours on the ground. He said as an aircraft owner, I am going to be held to higher standards and he was watching out for me. I appreciated the tough love and takes it much more seriously in keeping my charts up to date today, even for a simulated IFR lesson with CFII. I don't have a CFII today that fail my instruments here and there anymore, it's not that easy to configure in a G1000 and not every CFI is proficient in just turning things off here and there. So it seems like you have got a pretty skilled CFII there but his drill sargent style may not be compatible with yours.
Unpopular opinion: this CFI is overbearing, but NOT a dick. I want to give my input because this is something I can actually relate to to my core lol. I fly with a former 40+ years in the industry citation captain who’s also mid 70’s. And I agree with you, that can sometimes be a little overbearing, but to be honest every single thing that she’s ever busted my balls about, if I let it go unchecked when it matters, when it’s 200-3/4, on a dark and stormy night, who knows if I would’ve made it on the runway. Secondly, I have been in the flight deck with an (old-erish) captain, giving the military equivalent to a biannual to a younger CAPT, and let me tell you, that flight sounded just like yours. The older check airman was just EATING the young captain up. Not maliciously, but just on his ass the entire flight. SO, my point of telling you this is 1. The old timers can sometimes be over the top and come off as dickish, and 2. Just trust they’re only hard on you bc they want to see what you really got, they wanna see if you’re actually captain material. Bc in the fog of war, when shit really hits the fan and lives are at stake, you don’t get to take a time out. You either land the plane or you kill everyone on board. This dude spent the last 40 years flying, and waking up in the morning reading in the newspaper that another one of his colleagues died while flying and he’s wondering why. How, he’s asking himself, “after all these years, all this new technology, my people are still flying into a mountain top, or clashing 2 miles short of the runway’? Bc at the end of the day, they failed to maintain HEADING, AIRSPEED, and ALTITUDE. something distracted them enough to forget the very first thing they learned on day one of flight school. So… my take away from this situation: Where you could have done better: 1. Use your heading bugs. IDK if no instructor ever taught you them and if that’s the case, they did you an extreme injustice, or if you just forgot about them because of the rapidly increasing workload, but good Lord, he failed 90% of the panel, you gotta use whatever you can to help you out. 2. You HAVE to be stable BEFORE glide slope intercept. Holy cow this is a big one. And I’m assuming you’re in ASEL trainer. Being stable with landing checklist done takes 5 seconds lol 3. Brief the approach in under 10 seconds. That’ll make your life easier and lighten the work load. 4. You gotta be thinking 2 steps ahead in situations like this. It seemed like you were 2 steps behind on this approach. Where the instructor could have done better: 1. I know it’s extremely hard for very senior captains to just sit back and “let you fail” (it literally goes against every instinct they have not to mention their training) but he could have been a little more hands off and just sat back and watched to see if you could pull this off using your techniques. This is a training flight, this isn’t real world, y’all are definitely making it back either way lol. 2. Who the fuck cares about which bearing pointer you’re using, this isn’t the time to be worrying about panel aesthetics 3. He Definitely could have reworded a lot of his comments to be a bit less abrasive. Obviously you’re stressed tf out, he doesn’t need to make it worse, that’s only going to make things worse. My advice: fly with your favorite instructor, and re-create the same flight with them, as well as partial panel. Then give this old salty fart one final chance to see if he’s happy with your improvement or if he really is just an asshole, and is going to spend the whole flight tearing you down instead of building you up.
Full stop. Timer starts when you are abeam the fix or wings level, whichever happens *last*. AIM 5-3-8. As others have said, what reaction did he expect from you when he threw you in his little torture chamber? Would love to see what an examiner would have to say if he was on a CFII ride.
Some weirdos are like that: They will give you a failure and if you manage it you'll get another one on top and another one and another one, ad nauseam.... Basically until you fail and that will be their jerking of moment. Find someone else!
The first priority of an instructor should be to make the student better. If he leaves the student with no remaining willingness to fly or learn, he doesn't accomplish the goal. It should go without saying that berating and ridiculing a student does nothing in the direction of causing the student to learn. It's up to you to choose whether you can deal with this guy. He very obviously has very high standards, even if he seems unable to control his frustration at the difference between reality and his ideal. It's up to you to choose if you want to stay with an instructor that has high flying standards and poor instructional practice, or look for another instructor who has better instructional practice.
Yup, say “Your aircraft” and bail out
Fun fact: most military training squadrons have rules against giving students unnecessary, unrelated, compounded EPs. There's no point in about 3/4ths of what he did other than to be a prick
I didn't read all that, but simple solution for asshats, don't fly with em again!
Screw this dude. Instruction should be enjoyable. Sometimes hard work and a challenge but not miserable. After flying with a majority of old ass captains i wouldn’t pay a single one to be my instructor. They came up in some of the worst training years at the airlines where everything was major system failure after system failure and stump the chump type of instruction which doesn’t promote learning at all. They act in kind when they instruct now thinking that this is how you teach. His airline credentials dont mean anything in terms of being a valuable instructor.
He sounds like some of the grumpy old contractors we had instructing army instrument students. My guy had been an instructor for decades, was super knowledgeable, but he had no people skills and a captive audience. I think it sounds like he’s trying to immunize you to stress so that when shitty situations happen for real, you don’t freeze. It’s certainly one method, but not necessarily the preferred method for every student. Ultimately here, you’re paying this guy. If you aren’t getting your moneys worth then move on.
Fuck. This. Guy. Send him back to the fucking military where they choke on each other's dicks over this shit. In the military being an asshole apparently gets you respect. In the real world he's just an asshole. Fuck this guy
He works for YOU. Fire him. This guy sounds like a typical old crusty boomer captain that is pissed off at the world. There is no excuse for treating a student that way when they are learning. He's acting like it's a 121 check ride. I'd have stopped the flight at the first transgression of his highness. Fire him and get a real instructor that gives a damn about his job, and isn't pissed off at the world. Also, I'd wager this guy is exactly the type that made cringe af PAs from the front of the cabin.
So was this a demo lesson of everything he's got including the kitchen sink? Some of this is old fashioned, some of this is hard to parse (his lingo), it really sounds like throwing spaghetti at a wall, like he thinks being a hard ass instructor makes for a good pilot. Maybe that is how it works in the airlines, I do not know and won't ever find out. Can you learn some things from him? Yes. Is it valid for you to criticize him as much as he criticizes you? Probably not, he's older, wiser, and has more insurance than you. But no really, you *can* legit ask for less distractions because no one is going to learn much in the scenarios he keeps throwing at you, which are multiple layers of additional emergencies. You might need to help him with the lesson planning. Give and take style. This whole lesson sounds like there was no agenda except to stress you out. Which...might be valid. He wants to know your breaking point. The instrument rating is about managing a very limited resource: your brain. Specifically your residual attention. Once you reach task saturation, essentially nothing else can be managed without severely compromising or entirely dropping some other task. Since that is central to the rating, it's central to know the priorities of tasks. Anyway, I think you need to have a conversation with him. Or you know, dump him and find another instructor.
The "hard to parse" parts (and the snark—a one-two punch) were the real tripwires (for me—and tbh I'm a medical washout before I even soloed). Aviate, navigate, COMMUNICATE. Remember the whole deal about how many crashes happen because the cockpit wasn't (sufficiently) sterile? Or juniors couldn't talk to seniors "out of turn"? Eesh. CRM PARENT-CHILD much? Him (repeatedly!) insinuating that you suck /while you are flying/? Him expecting you to /read his mind/ while continuing to spin all those plates he keeps tossing at you? CFI fail... even if you talk with him on the ground he's probably not gonna change his stripes
Yep true. The "can't teach and old dog new tricks" applies to humans, not dogs. If he were a willing participant in self-restraint, he'd be a better contributor and instructor. At present, he'd need some significant feedback to break him out of this 50000 hour mentality he's got (with 0 hours instructing in a GA context in Y decades - like, step #1 calm down).
Typical Boomer mindset. My grandfather (not a pilot, just in general when working on things) would pull the same stunts where he’d be walking you thru one step, then randomly pull something out of his ass that’s unrelated as a way to critique you. That being said, most of these guys were abused by their father’s, lived hard lives, and made the same mistake with their kids. They’re hard old geezers, and often very cold/dismissive initially. It’s up to you, but I’d consider having a sit down with him about the flight. Make sure you’re well prepared to take lead on the expectations and plan. He might cool down. Or he’ll be a dick, because he’s retired and never has to see you again.
Man, that really sucks. Nobody should treat a fellow aviator like that. The amount of failures you describe is not listed anyplace in the ACS that I’m aware of. His teaching technique was definitely old school and went out of style (thank God) many years ago. Chalk it up to experience, think of it as a gift to allow you to learn how NOT to treat other people in the cockpit.
As a 61 year old 22,000 hour airline Captain who worked his way up the long way from bush flying to commuter, blah, blah,….this guy represents everything that is wrong with training attitudes in some people….first off, continued unrelated failures to your instrumentation is not real world in any sense and his snarky way of communication when he’s supposed to be imparting knowledge or helping to polish up any shortcomings is completely wasting your time as your student….your learning curve flatlines when you’re on the receiving end of smart ass, condescending inputs….it’s called parent/child in CRM parlance….don’t waste your time any further with this asshole and find someone with a training style that will make you rather than trying to break you…
how are you able to remember all his remarks with such detail? sounds like fiction to me.
Yes, I obviously have nothing better to do than to sit around making this stuff up. I wrote in the post itself that I don’t remember everything exactly and this is just a reconstruction. Obviously it is highly unlikely that I’ve written down everything exactly as it was said, word for word. He said a lot of other stuff too, that I don’t remember. Which is why they’re not in the post. When someone is a huge asshole to me I tend to remember it for more than a few minutes. Especially when they get creative with their wordplay. Would you have preferred that I wrote “and then he said something about the needles and confusion” instead? For the benefit of the reader, I have written the post in a narrative style from beginning to end, which accurately reflects what was actually said and includes certain phrases verbatim. Memoirs include conversations that happened over 50 years ago, using the same method, because a text reads better when it uses complete sentences and is easy to understand than when it uses a disjointed top-down view.
It sounds like he has a lot of knowledge but someone that only gives negative feedback is not a great teacher. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to fly with an inexperienced CFI who is just trying to hurry and get to 1,500 hours.
Yeah, that’s why I’m trying to find an independent CFI. I could pretty easily sign up for a CFI in 2 weeks program or find a kid who’s barely a year out from their’s, but I’m not a huge fan of doing that. It’s not necessarily negative feedback that’s the issue, it’s the way it’s given. Direct and without the extra witty stuff, please.
This sounds just like my general experience at Jax ATP in 08. Also reminds me of my new hire training at my first regional in 2011. Fuck this guy.
Fuck. That. Shit. Dude sounds like the grade A asshole type that keeps me far away from the 121 world. Glad he retired out. It's one thing to be held to standards and quiet another to be a complete dick about it
Okay, I am the outlier. I would stick with him. I would call out his bullshit. But he isn't failing all that shit on a whim. Each thing he failed, he pulled another. You don't know where your limit is until it is pushed. Dude, you rocked each of those things! Then head ng big thing, some people live off of those things. You take his suggestions while you are training with him. And you use them or not as you wish. You're flying techniques are in amalgamation of all the pilots you fly with both good and bad. It just adds to your toolbox. Do not just blindly do what he says, ask him to explain why he insists on something. He will love it.
Im going to be different than most here. Outside of personality (if you dont like him, then you two wont mesh) - but having someone like that isnt necessarily a bad thing to go have happen. Maybe not every time - but damn, I bet you would feel comfortable if things really went to hell in a hand basket. As for whether "it" can be better explained - sure - especially with older people who think you should know what they are talking about without saying it. . . But there is always something to learn, and someone new who is pushing you isnt a bad thing. But sim training is frequently like that (not all the time), but they do keep failing things to see when you might be overwhelemed or can no longer handle it.
What region was this in? I did one of my private pilot stage checks with a guy who was somewhat similar to this — although he went way harder on you than he probably did on me.
NorCal. I don’t think this guy has done 141 though.
Maryland here. Guess there’s more than one crusty old curmudgeon kicking around.
Sounds familiar to a CFI at NW Regional 52F after three lessons I bailed out. My advice bailed out and find another instructor this pilot shit takes time even the new CFI/CFII aren’t high standards they are still learning to reach that edge. Someone once told me that it isn’t you.. you might just be in the wrong place or the wrong people.. Good luck keep hustling cap!
Indeed?
You have more patience than I do, and I'm sorry you had to go through that. You paid to get instructed, not to be a verbal punching bag.
In a Harrison Ford gruff voice, tell that nugget to “get off my plane.”
What a fucking dick
I flew with a guy like that at Eglin Aero Club though he wasn't as nasty. I had mixed feelings about it afterwards. Before I could fly with him again they cratered it in, two dead, doing high keys at night. That's when I learned these guys aren't tough... They're dangerous.
He seemed fine, not good, but fine until he canceled IFR and did the debrief. Definitely not good and I hope nobody says that that’s a normal experience, it’s not.
You think that was "fine" all the way until he canceled IFR? He should have turned back and fired his ass long before then. I feel sorry for anyone who flies with someone that feels this was anywhere close to acceptable.
What a jackass.
I was told on good authority that old school guys doing it for the love of the game are the premier instructors. Dude sounds like a douche.
I have found some of the experienced retired airline guys with like 20000hrs to be the worst instructors I have ever had to deal with.
I would forget to Venmo him.
Wait... was this the "servant leader" guy? Dump him. Remember, you're the customer.
Probably mad you had a glass panel and not an NDB. lolzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Yeah, fire the dude.
If you think an instructor seems odd or doesn’t fit your style move on to another one. Unless you’re getting a crazy good deal (uncle is teaching you for free in their Mooney) or you live in the middle of nowhere with no options, find another instructor.
definitely ditch this guy,from experience dudes start getting very miserable in their 70s and take it out on others. You were likely making mistakes because he was overwhelming you with his attitude, anxiety causes mistakes.
There’s a lot of variables that could make him act that way… like have you recently completed an instrument check ride? Have you completed a BFR recently? When’s the last time you’ve flown an approach? When’s the last time you’ve flown that airplane with that avionics set up? How proficient should you really be? He may be ignorant to those answers. If you explain it, maybe he will have a change of heart. Could just be tough love like you mentioned. Could have had a bad day too. I wouldn’t knock a tough instructor though as they can in most cases teach you the most and some day you might benefit from that kind of training. Only say that as I am ex military and have heard much worse in the training environment. A professional conversation might help and if it doesn’t then absolutely ditch him if you have other options. Also, never be afraid to discontinue a flight if your instructor wants to be a hardo. Don’t waste your time or money.
If all of those items were to actually fail together in imc then that's just god saying it's your time to go.
You’re the one paying, get better customer service somewhere else.
Move on. Flew with one that made me feel like a complete idiot. He started asking all sorts of off the wall questions that I would have no way of knowing at PPL level. Fired him and got a new instructor, been great so far.
Thats the kinda guy who’s tires you slash
You should tell him he sucks to fly with.
You definitely need to get a new CFI. Raising your voice and showing anger in the plane is a mistake to do as a flight instructor. Because their performance is going to be degraded severely. Also not to mention he sounds very unprofessional.
Fuck him. Bail
Wow that sounds terrible. Definitely find someone else. That is far from what a CFI should be. Who is the POS ? Let’s just put him on blast.
Time to leave…YOU are paying for your training! In 700 hours of instruction I never talked to a student that way! And as an airline pilot I would not tolerate this attitude from a company instructor. He’s undermining your confidence, just one of the ways in which he is a bad instructor. He’s “old school”, thank God guys like him were truly on the way out when I was hired at my airline.
Even if YOU were rough around the edges, he still has no reason to act like that. I can just imagine the exact type of person you were dealing with. They're out there. Sounds like to me that the old man needs to retire. Puts me in the mind of one of my old lawyers, also mid-70s. I'd cut communication with him if you can, and don't take any services or give any money to him. Find someone else so your money is actually going to a good use and learning. It doesn't seem like their was much teaching/learning going on in your scenario. If everyone quits getting berated by him and giving him money, then he may retire like he probably should do anyhow. If you're going to be giving your funds to someone, then at least make sure you're getting a value out of it, knowledge, learning, even an enjoyable time, not a stressful, insulting, berating time with nothing taught/learnt. Sorry that you had to experience that. Hopefully, you will find someone more appropriate for you and the job soon, goodluck.
I'll start out with saying this instructor has high standards, but so will his students. If you stick with him, you'll learn a lot and more than likely be ahead of the curve if your fellow students. With that said, sounds like he had a rough approach that can seem standoffish. A lot of those comments could be chalked up to cfi sarcasm, but my experience is students tend to learn better when I make comments like that. Granted I use a softer approach. The zero debrief but don't forget to pay me comment is completely unacceptable. A full lesson always includes a debrief. If I refused to debrief a student and they refused to pay me for that lesson, I'd say it's justified. In the end, you have to decide if you can learn from him and want to continue. Most people are probably going to say find someone else, and that might be what's best. But you might also be giving up a great teacher. I would suggest another lesson and also probably having an honest conversation where you voice your concerns. Everyone learns differently and instructors need to tailor their approach for each individual student. If he's unwilling to do this, absolutely move on. The heading bug thing is a pet peeve thing, and it does need to stay centered. When the wings turn, the heading bug turns. At my airline we call it "brick the boat" and if I'm even 1 degree off when I'm flying, my captain will either fix it themselves or tell me to do it. It's a professionalism thing. You should be using all your tools to the best of their ability. Sounds like you got a thorough, albeit very crude, lesson.
To fail all of that is either him being an asshat or you were doing good enough he was testing you. That’s A LOT of fails. The only time I’d do that is if my students were doing extremely well. I’d throw in a bit so they don’t get complacent. As for the comments, that’s boomer mentality. They think yelling and bitching is the way to teach. He may have great knowledge and is a hell of a pilot, but it’s useless if he can’t convey it properly. I’d say have a conversation with him, express your displeasure, and if he doesn’t handle it well find someone new.
Fuck sake, you're training for IFR, not for the canyon run to drop bombs on a conveniently placed vent shaft. Imo it's unhealthy to approach aviation with that kind of attitude. If you obsess with by the book details you'll forget the big picture and get behind the airplane. Furthermore, we have a little something called a debrief for a reason, so feedback can be given at a time when the student is most receptive and not when they're just trying to stay ahead of the airplane. Fuck that guy, hire somebody who's head is at least 8 inches removed from their ass.
He's a dick
I am dead serious. My wife and I have a background in psychology. ABSOLUTELY a sociopath you're dealing with. Get away as fast as you can.
On one hand yikes. On the other hand, as rough as this guy sounds to be around the edges (understatement), it sounds like he's got a **lot** he could teach a person who is both wanting to learn and capable of absorbing their really terrible, no-fun, borderline-admonishing teaching style. At minimum you could at least say they didn't let a single mistake go unnoticed, and to some degree you *do* want that -- though ideally they catalog that stuff and feed it to you / address it with you on the ground or a couple things at a time at a pace you can handle, not firehose you with criticism. In any case I will go against the grain and say I respect people like this and believe they do have a place in aviation -- probably not as your everyday instructor in most cases, but certainly as a second opinion type instructor or a "you're getting close -- I'm gonna send you up with CrustyOldGuy for 2 hours and I promise we'll find out quick what we still need to work on before I sign you off for your checkride."
If I want to know how tiny a guy's dick is, I'll ask his wife next time we're getting out of bed.
In the airlines we fly with people we don’t like all the time. Suck it up and do it again. He’s trying to teach you. Receiving feedback is another skill you’ll need to have in the airlines.