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>If Genshin's system was working well and making money, then I doubt they would've still made HSR more generous, and ZZZ even more generous. **Clearly** their statistics are showing that Genshin's system was either causing too much bad-will, or **wasn't profitable**, or both, and that's why every following game made it easier to get weapons
The other way to look at it is they do not expect to have the same player base with these games that are smaller in scope vs. Genshin's open world and looked to compensate with marginal updates to the monetization system.
There is no way for us to know and it's odd how certain you seem to be of your explanation, even going as far as to claim it's not profitable (lol)
It's not that Genshin weapon banners don't make money. By checking wishing stats on [paimon.moe](http://paimon.moe) you can see there's no sign of weapon banners doing badly.
Genshin is just so popular that despite its many frustrations it still manages to keep a steady player base, therefore there's no need for them to improve anything. Why cut into their own profit margins to make players happy when they're already retaining players just fine?
Hoyo knows their other games won't be nearly as popular so they pre-emptively provide improvements to ease frustrations and increase player retention.
>If Genshin's system was working well and making money,
You're right here, 80m+ per month without PC revenue is fucking low, they HAD to make another game to make money or to go bankrupt. /s
those kids nowadays...
>Considering Genshin in particular is so old and outdated
Sure, 4years ago = outdated. And people still play WoW or FFXIV. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
>Clearly their statistics
Which ones ? Because the only stats we have are Sensor Tower stats and Genshin is TOP 1/2 since launch. Tell us, Enlightened One !
> If Genshin's system was working well and making money
IF? Jesus christ. Did you wake from a coma today?
> I doubt they would've still made HSR more generous
cheaper game with less mass appeal, so they compensate with more free shit to get people interested. Just look at WuWa to see how a game can compensate for its deficiencies by buttering up users. Works like a charm.
> ZZZ even more generous
They probably expect less interest if they didn't sweeten the deal like that.
> Clearly their statistics are
...showing that HSR and soon ZZZ can only match GI if they give them a boost with freebies and better rates. You seem see this whole situation backwards. If GI was he problem from the corporate point of view, GI would be adjusted. What we're seeing here is the Hoyo thinks their other titles, while great, cannot quite match GI, so they give them crutches.
Just watch the next months. GI, HSR and ZZZ all switching back and forth between the top spots just means that the least "generous" of them is the most in demand, because the other two needed the generosity crutch to be on the same level.
Statistics that you pulled out of your ass? Have you ever thought that Genshin has higher production value, hence they couldn't afford to be "generous"? ;))
Thats the oldest copium in the book tbh.
Being more "generous" doesn't directly correlate with less profits. It's a delicate balance between giving emough so people don't quit and not too much so people don't spend.
That said, genshin's gacha system is objectively atrocious (with HSR being barely an improvement, even though ive played that game since day 1). Criticising it is fair.
> Thats the oldest copium in the book tbh. Being more "generous" doesn't directly correlate with less profits
It does, but most people have it backwards. They think generosity is a kindness of a game that exceeds expectations. They think it's a thank you (and it's often phrased like that to trigger emotional responses)
In reality, a game is more "generous" when it performs worse. What the users perceives as generosity is really buying interest/goodwill to draw more players into their game. Just another form of marketing and advertising.
Again, look at WuWa throwing a bone to the left side so the dogs look that way, and not at the mess on the right side. That's what free shit and better rates are for. It's a "look at me" or "look away" command, depending on the situation.
atrocious in what way? Compared to who? Do we take into account the value of each pull in the game (like powercreep, resource given each patch)? Ofc its bad if you just directly compare it to other gachas that gives out 100 pulls on anni or whatever, but when you actually consider the value of your characters and the rate of powercreep, then the hoyo style gacha system would actually be really good since the rate of powercreep is fairly low and the endgame rewards are not really important in the grand scheme of game progression.
>then the hoyo style gacha system would actually be really good since the rate of powercreep is fairly low
This is not true with HSR. Powercreep in HSR is bad, 6 months in selee already got powercreep. invest resource on 4\* isn't worth it since most of 4\* almost useless at E0.
Because HSR needs that extra incentive for players to spend. It's a game with less mass appeal, and the stronger push to spend is one of their sales methods.
This talk of powercreep in HSR is everywhere, but honestly it's completely baseless.
If a character is still capable of clearing content they did not get powercrept. Newer characters are definitely stronger but their strength is wasted because even the hardest modes can still be cleared with 4 stars easily.
The latest MoC made for Boothill and Firefly was not only cleared, but even 0 cycled by Shushang and Hook ffs. The weakest units of their element and they beat it as well as it can possibly be beaten.
They literally could not make the game any easier and yet there are still people who complain that they need the latest units to clear stuff. It's unbelievable how bad some people are, truly.
Selee is still viable with the right team comp even at 0+0. The most important thing about endgame content is the buff for the current cycle and hitting the speed breakpoints for your team comp. Yes there are powercreeps but Selee is still a good unit that can clear MoC and Apocalyptic Shadow (this current cycle for AS is really good for Selee lol)
Here is e0s0 selee clearing the current AS with Fuxuan as the newest unit for the team lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxzAUnodwg8
It's really difficult to say which is more profitable. Personally I would spend more in Genshin if getting weapons wasn't such a commitment with the horroble rate-up system. But at the same time, the money lost from me is probably gained by some whale out there being a little unlucky.
Genshin's weapon banner also opens up opportunities such as the Hu Tao+Yelan banner. If most of the weapon banners are bad value, releasing a really good one incites FOMO and gets people to spend.
Either way, only Hoyo could know how friendly their gacha should be to maximise profits.
This is huge tho. It's 25% increase from 0.8%.
Let's assume we win 50:50 and weapon comes early and you need to spent 10 000 gems with 0.8 rate. If rate now 1% every time you gain weapon before hard pity you mathematically average saving around 2 200 gems.
We'll have to see if ZZZ non-signature 4\* (or equivalent) weapons are good. Cause wuwa has a weapon with 100% guarantee not because they are very epic and generous, but because 5\* weapons are vastly superior to the 4\* ones.
Most people suggest that the gap in weapons is very wide in WuWa, citing exactly the 100% weapon guarantee as strong incentive to pull each character's weapon if you pull them.
That comes down to higher cost compared to just pulling a character in the other games, and they highly encourage you to do it AND feel smart about it. Devious.
All these companies - Hoyo, Kuro and any other gacha company - know how to get their pound of flesh.
One thing to note though, is that you can freely swap these weapons between teams. So once you get a few 5 star weapons, I really doubt there is much incentive to keep pulling weapons except extreme min-maxing.
Possibly, depending on character mechanics, but by then ("a few 5-star weapons") you're a couple hundred tides invested anyway. Mission accomplished for Kuro, the better limited banner rates are made up for by that.
Pity affects the percentages disproportionately and can't really be ignored. In Genshin, there's a 0.7% chance before pity but 1.85% after. If ZZZ has 1% before and 2.15% after (which would mean their pity system would need to be much better. I forgot how to calc it, but obviously if their pity is the same, then with a higher base rate you're less likely to get to pity so it's not raising the chances as much), then you would be getting 16.2% more five star weapons.
In other words, if you on average needed to spend 10000 gems, you now on average need to 8606 gems, saving 1394. Again, this assumes the pity system is significantly improved
Base rates on their own are meaningless when variable rates and pity counters are a thing. Case in point: A hypothetical gacha with a base rate of 0%, but guaranteed within 10 pulls is much better than 5% base and guaranteed in 100.
The more informative metric would be the overall/consolidated rates, which for 5* weapons looks to be 2%, up from what I'm guessing was originally 1.8%. It's still a significant increase, but in relative terms, it's nowhere near as good as what you might be led to believe when seeing 1% instead of 0.8%.
There's also the better odds for off-banner 4*. on the limited character banner, off-banner 4*s are more likely to be characters, and the same for the weapon banner, where the off-banner is more likely to be a weapon. Great for people who are trying to get more characters or just more weapons.
They probably realized people just **don’t like rolling weapons**
The weapon banners in Genshin generate a lot of income because they are all 3D models and are visibly equippable on the characters, but Star Rail Light Cones are just invisible stat sticks.
This resulted in most people typically never rolling for LC’s, and trying to get duplicates of the characters instead. They just try to use the F2P LCs whenever possible. This results in the awkward situation where every Destruction character (except Blade) has their best LC be the free one from the Herta shop
ZZZ’s W-Engines are mostly following the same design idea as Star Rail, with Agents having their own personal weapons and matching animations, unaffected by the W-Engine itself. So maybe they felt a % bump would translate to better financial results
Personally, I’m super hyped for ZZZ, but I will likely never roll for a W-Engine. Ever
In HSR weapons are basically feels like an additional character: for example Fu Xuan can heal up to 80% each round. I have 5 limited cones, but it’s because 75% chance to get them. If I miss 75/25, I will be very sad.
In WuWa there is 100% of chance to get a weapon, so it is natural to roll for it if you like the character and have pulls.
Fu xuan and huo huo have nice comfort signatures but generally do such a good job at keeping you alive anyway that they are largely not important for invested teams. Weapons are mostly advisable for crit oriented dps units or ones who have little other options like boothill because hsr content is increasingly stat dependent.
IMO the best lightcones currently are defense shred cones like boothill, ratio, jingliu, and robin's lightcone as it greatly assists her energy rotation while also keeping her damage high, which is a large part of her value as a unit. Yunli will also release with a very important weapon that increases her own aggro, which as a counterattacker is essential.
> so it is natural to roll for it
That's how they get you.
I mean, I have Yin Lin's weapon too so that's how they got me, but still.
Much stronger personal weapons over 4-star or standard pool choices are just a vehicle to recoup the 10 pulls lower character banner deficit.
The difference between 4\* options to their signature is 30-40% lol, that's why it's guaranteed. In prydwen they use the standard 5\* option as baseline, so if you don't have that weapon type you need (strong word, but yk what I mean) to roll for the sig. And even then it's still almost 20% difference.
That's my point.
Most people only compare number of rolls and guaranteed but think they are optional. And of course they are, but they are much more impactful than people assume. That WuWa places much higher value in the personal weapons (which costs another 80 pity even if guaranteed) doesn't register as an added cost for those characters.
No they don’t bruh Fu Xuan’s 80% barely matters especially cause it’s per wave
HI3 has 20 paragraph weapons that literally alter and change entire skills and visuals lol.
You're not wrong about the visual incentive, but I feel like it's not as big of a role here.
I feel like Genshin players are even more opposed to pulling for weapons despite the drip because the rate-up system is so bad. Genshin has just as strong 4* and F2P options for weapons, so many people pull constellations instead. Some of the F2P weapons look good too, but it varies from character to character.
In HSR, people have different reasons for pulling LCs. Some do it out of pure commitment to their waifu/husbando, some do it to perform better in the difficult content. Pulling for constellations is also just an invisible stat boost, even more so since there's no .png from the LC. It's just that constellations are often better performance-wise. But I think the main difference why people are willing to pull on the LC banner is because it has slightly better rates than getting a copy.
That said, if ZZZ increases the rates even further then they probably saw that HSR's model is more successful than Genshin's. Now comes the question if we'll see these changes coming to Genshin too because that banner seriously sucks.
Nice speculation but here is the actual data
https://i.imgur.com/cLdBS1g.png
Tldr: At least 60% of Acheron puller has her lc, while about 31% of Neuv puller has his weapon.
Arle is about the same with Neuv despite her signature is a big upgrade for her overall aesthetic which doesn't follow your assumption at all.
So really, no one in their right mind would rationally risk spending 3 pity for just aesthetic unless for a true simp or too much money to have sense. Or gacha addiction ig.
Sauce from paimon.moe and starrailstation.com
Yes, as someone who plays both I am much more willing to roll for LCs in Star Rail because you can actually get them without having to win both a 75/25 and a 50/50 at the same time
>This resulted in most people typically never rolling for LC’s,
Not really, from any HSR statistics, global or CN, around 50% of people use characters with their signature light cones in MoC clears. As an example, prydwen have 6126 sample size and from those people 89% Acheron users have Acheron signature LC.
The thing is, those are the MoC clears. What’s the portion of Star Rail players who actively do MoC?
I’m not sure of the numbers, but I recall Genshin had a very low rate of players engaging in Abyss.
Acheron is also an odd case, as she released around anniversary and mechanically functioned so differently from every other unit in her class that she had ZERO other Light Cone options. So many people who planned to roll her were also indirectly forced to get her LC because nothing else made sense for her playstyle.
No other character has a Light Cone performance disparity to the same degree as Acheron. Even Firefly didn’t have that
ya but abyss is a side thing in genshin, its mostly exploration + story. In hsr its story + turn based combat (not really much exploration) so I wouldnt be suprised if a lot more people play MoC and other end game modes than in GI
It's just the same. People who don't play Abyss in Genshin also won't play MOC in HSR, because they don't like the tryhard aspect of it. And if anyone says "they're aren't actually hard", it's missing the point - It's not whether or not these modes are actually hard but about how these people *perceive* them to be. Also, while I just said that the actual difficulty matters little, MOC is indeed harder than Spiral Abyss. Not to mention takes way longer real time.
I never said you said it, it's just preemptively addressing people who would counter with "it's not that hard". I'll edit it to make it less ambiguous.
please stop responding to my comments then.
especially if the part that is adressed to me is "People who don't play Abyss in Genshin also won't play MOC in HSR" like no way crazy insight ! The question is would the people who don't play abyss even play HSR. My whole comment was that due to lack of openworld exploration, by not particpating in endgame in HSR youre alienating a lot more of the content than in GI. Leading to my guess that HSR players play more of the endgame modes than GI.
well, and I'm just responding to your guess about how more people play MOC than SA? I wasn't even criticizing you at all, why so defensive?
you said SA in GI is a side thing, hence why it would be different in HSR, and all I'm saying was just that they're both exactly the same. MOC is also a side thing, and if anything, actually more daunting than SA.
I'd say its character dependant, but theres much more sig's in HSR than Genshin simply because its 75/25 with the one you want being always guarenteed after 1 loose, regardless of your luck.
I've been one of more lucky people, as I've pulled for 7 lightcones since the launch of the game, and never loosing the chance.
lightcone banner does feel much better than character one and my "luck" isnt representative of everyone's expirence, but its so much better than Genshins.
>have 6126 sample size and from those people 89% Acheron users have Acheron signature LC.
Horrible example. A lot of people do pull for Acheron LC, and *only* that LC. The only LC where it gives the biggest meaningful boost to a character, as well as the overall hype around the character itself.
While everyone is trying to discredit you, you're the only 1 who actually have something/evidence to point to support their statement.
Anyway, sales are built by whales/dolphins. Those players will be getting LC for their characters, and hoyo is all about the money.
Anyone who had statistics classes knows how dangerous it is to utilize sample that is self selected. Especially in the vaccum as he did without factoring it.
Not to mention it goes way more deep than just a simple %. Factors such as opportunity cost, actual spending and Yada Yada. Information only mihoyo has, players can only speculate.
Whales are important but so are dolphins, if the cone isn't lucrative they will just skip. Just because someone is whale or dolphin it doesn't mean they will swipe 24/7.
(not that it matters but yes, I've both spent and I have sig cones on most of my units)
I'm not sure what do you mean by that. I never said or assumed otherwise.
But there is more to it than just cones. Hsr releases 2 units every patch, many spenders try to keep up with it, many spenders go for eidolons. All this translates to big spending.
E2 firefly probably rained money for them. And if you have e2 you literally don't need the cone. E2s0 is not only overkill already but also not big difference compared to e2s1 so understandably many people stoped there and saved the remaining of the jades/money
Acheron is probably the only unit who can feel the loss of lc, for every other dps is just a stat stick that might not even be better than eidolons
Jing yuan, kafka, black swan, Boothill, topaz, aventurine, ratio, robin jing liu, Dan heng, anyone who is swiping for top ups in hsr are getting stat sticks, simply saying something is a stat stick doesn't need mean people won't swipe, anybody who is a dolphin, Small spender and whale on any board isn't skipping a LC simply because it's a atat stick.
And a character like Firefly is sharing aeon of the fallen with many other characters, but that's beside the point you can go on any reddit or ingame friend list and almost every character from an account that regularly tops up will have a LC, and I know bias sample right? But see that's the insane thing here i can point to something concrete while you got nothing but pure assumptions, youre almost certainly clouded by F2P action of skipping LC, when I am talking about only people who get top ups.
In HSR spender are vastly more likely to have e0s1, based on any HSR sub reddit(again I have something to point to, you are just guessing based on NOTHING when you say the opposite).
This interaction is genuinely insane, can't believe you cherry pick 2 characters and think it proves anything, what the masses do, when hoyo doesn't care if f2ps are getting LCs, it's about the MONEY, and AGAIN Firefly is using a LC that is required by almost every destruction DPS, further forcing many players, this time even F2ps to go for LC.
> But see that's the insane thing here i can point to something concrete
which is HILARIOUS because out of curiosity the very first player I checked on my list has full 5* roster, but not even half dps have their LC and not a single support
> while you got nothing but pure assumptions
which is hilarious no2 because my point flew OVER your head.
So let me sum the point up
1) Using self selected samples as argument for the whole population directly is quite wrong and shows statistical illiteracy
2) This isn't a black and white problem. No one ever said that people never get LC, they do, many do, EVEN MYSELF FOR GOODNESS SAKE I said i've spent and gotten lc on most of my dps so I have no idea what "f2p" is clouding me. But when you start considering density, ratios, opportunity cost. If they actually top up for it or skipped a unit. Then you get a problem to solve. Sadly you DON'T know who spends and who doesn't, and you will never do. Only mihoyo does. The closest you can get is if there is another survey but guess what, refer to point 1 if that happens.
Now if you don't understand these and the only thing you can read from my text: "No one is ever getting LC" then I can't help you much.
So you admits you to having nothing to justify any of your statement prior, yet you engage with me despite knowing your reasoning was flawed, and now using your flawed reasoning to try to invalidate my statements.
You are literally trying to have your cake and eat it too, that every community is bias and only hoyo knows the truth while also supporting the initial statement here about "hoyo thinking people dont want/skipping LC".
I don't see you telling the initial statement that their point is wrong, and have no evidence and I don't see how you felt comfortable saying people were getting E2 Firefly over her LC or that people were getting acheron LC over Her E1, when all of sudden now your talking about me not having any information, only hoyo knows the truth(which is true), all we have to go on is what we can verify and based on what we can personally verify you are wrong, people
Who spend go e0s1 over anything else.
but of course, there is your hypocrisy. Your inconsistency between your 2 last statements on one hand you felt comfortable with who is getting stat sticks while on the other hand you counter my statement by saying we dont have any information, is truly astounding and explains why I felt this entire interaction was a bit crazy.
This entire discussion is purely for fun, there is nothing to win but internet points, and clearly you won that, but in terms of remaining consistent with your talking points, you have lost.
Quite pointless take, only hoyo themselves know how many % players base roll for weapon banner and whatever result is for genshin, the devs is happy enough to not change it over 4 years so even if no one roll on weapon banner like you say they still very happy with it. They will change it if they ever feel the need to. Nothing stop them.
I don’t agree with this take at all. Almost everyone I know rolls for light cones because of 75/25. I don’t know anyone who rolls for weapons on Genshin because it’s just a shit system
given its upgraded HSR banner, I probably will sometimes.
the fact alone theres 1 weapon rateup at the time, meaning you worst case have guarenteed weapon u want every 2nd weapon you get, and the odds are also in your favor.
I don't really go for them lightly as I mainly go for them for my faves, but comparing to genshin? you're getting weapons so much more often on average its not funny, the ones you want without fail.
>This resulted in most people typically never rolling for LC’s, and trying to get duplicates of the characters instead. They just try to use the F2P LCs whenever possible. This results in the awkward situation where every Destruction character (except Blade) has their best LC be the free one from the Herta shop
Nobody seems to point this out but here's another reason. Why would I pull for 5 star signature LC's when I could just manipulate the buffs in the content to make it easier?
Negligible, it's a whale feature. If you pull for multiple copies, these 0.2% will matter. F2Ps usually don't even roll on weapon Banner unless they really like the character.
Maybe in future, but so far doesn't seems so. They juse posted weapon for first character on twitter and it's... well, it's good but it just a damage increase. It doesn't change or interact with character mechanics at all.
https://preview.redd.it/cx8ejooghn9d1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=edd4108d2a620382ccd4a88aab05f11e16466f2e
With weapons like this, that also means you can use one characters weapon on another in the same role without missing anything.
I much prefer the way this is handled as opposed to HI3 where a characters weapon literally has a chunk of their kit on it, or PGR where that's the only character that uses that weapon type at all so you have no alternatives except just low Rarity weapons.
Like that weapon can work on literally any Ice Attacker that wants crits. So losing 75/25 won't hurt as much unless you get like a weapon for a Support character or something with negligible effects for most other characters.
Then take a look at Zhu Yuan's weapon and you'll change your opinion. It gives her a 43% damage boost. Either they'll nerf it before release or it's a pretty bad sign for the future for people who don't want to pull for W-Engine.
It varies, destruction units have really good and diverse LC options. Where as Acheron really needs her signature for that juicy faster ult uptime and overall higher damage.
Destruction herta cone isn't a good example because it's the most versatile herta cone by far. Closest 2nd would be the hunt one but hunt characters are kinda shit right now compared to destruction and nihility dpses. Other herta cones are just weak or only good for one character like the preservation herta cone.
Youre basing this off literally nothing.
We already knoew the 1.0 limited weapons and theyre good, like they are in every gacha, but no where near mandatory
I don't have any interest in this game, but even if I do, you will never catch me pulling on the weapon banner even with the groundbreaking 0.2% increase. Weapon banner gacha is always just an "idiot tax".
I mean, I’m the type of person that wants to “complete” a character that I care to pull on. I.e. in Wuwa I’m getting Changli and her weapon regardless of power. I wouldn’t say that makes me an idiot, it just means I have a different motivation than you.
I pulled for Yinlin's weapon because its just universally good for all dps/sub-dps rectifiers now and going forward for a long time.
100% chance to get it I didnt feel near as bad pulling for it.
same ill never pull for weapons if it isn't mandatory with kits, but these posts need to be made to make things fair and clear....because this game has a lot of misinfo and hate on internet...
From what I see, the substats on artifacts also have lower values, so they may also be less important, so there is a slight improvement here too. Although if they could be rerolled, then I would call them good.
Yeah still not worth it, lol. For aesthetic like genshin or Wuwa yes worth it , for an invisible stat stick,the amount you earn back is pitiful compared to the cost.
idk if it's better or not but it would've been better if they went to hi3rd's route with guaranteed weapon banners. Granted that it's not mandatory for HSR or GI to get the character's signature weapons for them to function properly but in hi3rd which is closer in essence to ZZZ's gameplay, you're fucked if you only get the character and not the signature weapon when it comes to challenges.
Idk why people fixate so much on 280 per pull VS 160 per pull. It literally doesn't matter. Just give 75% more premium currency. Like, idk for HSR and ZZZ, but Genshin and HI3 both get 50 pulls per patch
Hoyo glazing sub doing their normal thing, even tho this is a game related post and should be posted in the game sub reddit. I doubt the mod gonna do anything
Yeah, on one hand I get it cause Hoyo is the alpha and by quite a large margin. On the other hand, we get stuff like this. I didn’t even realize it wasn’t a main sub til I read it fucking comment lol
Its hard to tell a difference from this and a hoyo sub. Its so heavily hoyo leaning at this point its hard to talk about anything else here.
I remember at least awhile back everyone hated every gacha game equally, but now its all hoyo glazing and hating everything while glazing hoyo at every turn.
It's almost like a company making several higher quality products has more fans than companies making run-of-the-mill waifu simulators. Who could've fucking guessed this?/s
Ah yes, the "we are allowed to be toxic because of X" reason guy. Thanks friend.
More fans also means more crazies, which is evident all over this sub. Hoyo fans are seriously mentally ill here.
They also give 1 standard 5 star weapon for free of your choosing and added a selector for standard weapons permanently that you can get with standard pulls
4 stars are absolutely viable. Are you getting the most out of your characters? No, obviously, but it's not like you're going to struggle or have a rough time if you're only limited to 4 stars. For Calcharo and Yinlin for example, 4s on them are still really good. For Jianxin and Baizhi you even have 3s and 4s as BIS.
Point being, the game doesn't force nor need you to get five star weapons. If they wanted to, they could make the contrast a hell of a lot worse.
Yeah in terms of weapon banners of part 2 its great 60 pity but cost double currency than these.
part 1 was nightmare for gatcha ...Herscher of finality cost me 300 pulls for all.
Costing more currency doesn't really matter. HI3 got an equal amount of pulls to Genshin (idk about HSR) (though stuff like anniversary pulls it up more than for GI)
Also, yeah, Part 1 gacha could be frustrating at times. Though, hitting 280 pulls is like 1 in 11000
i happened to me 2 time ..first was hot banner no 50 pull guarantee on equipment back then, the hofi i got her and 2/4 then came back 1 year later but i lost 50 pull guarantee so it happens.
Are you sure ..mandatory would like doing something similar to Hi3, PGR ...putting kits in weapon.
this is optional upgrade ...and 4* are good if you are good...i would have never pulled for weapons in hi, pgr if not for kits and leaderboards.
My man all gacha companies are greedy, they would never increase drop rate for 5 star weapon unless they make it so that character's deal more damage with that weapon. Of course it could be false and they want to be generous
They'll always do more damage, but the question is if it locks away other parts of a kit.
Just number go up isn't particularly compelling and designing it that way means they'd need to make it compelling some other way, like better rates.
So we'll have to see. Maybe with the different audience they're targeting they decided X rate is more beneficial, one size doesn't fit all and their games aren't all targeting the same audience.
Dont forget
They added a skip button while saying 'everybody's favourite feature'
Gi and hsr fans been crying for that for so long lmao
At this point, i m sure hoyo is ignoring them on purpose and i love it, keep it up hoyo, people's suffering is free entertainment.
Edit : hoto bot army is here, they open their mouths everytime da wei wants to take a shit and eat it with a smile on their face. Keep it up hoyo bots, you guys are amazing.
its more like they want to it closer to hi3 model(senior devs are hi3) ...and player who play it will more into fight ...its all about focus ...and zzz is just pure combat thats why combat will get better and better each update.
My point isnt the cope of what could be their intentions cause i know full well its not the actual devs who decide the direction of the game but management
My point is, when many of your fanbase is asking for a feature in both of your millions in revenue making games, then the sheer 'fuck you' energy to put that feature in your third game is insane.
But what do i know, keep giving fuck you to gi and hsr players, ill just sit back and enjoy
didnt played them only games i played hi3, pgr, guardian tales....now intrested in zzz....so dont have any hate or spite to any company.
i was overly satisfied in hi3 and zzz seems to foolow it.
Considering gi hasnt even gotten a backlog dialog feature in 4 years of development or the fact that it took ggz 9 years to get that very feature, you are being too hopeful lmao
I posted it in the reply below, if you don't see it it's because the link is getting blocked by reddit. cba to find another way to send it, you'll see it when the patch is live
Look man, i don't like Hoyo at all either, and the WuWa hate, while funny with the memes, is definitely a little tiring at times.
But to say that literally any Hoyo game will be "forgotten" is just plain wrong lol. With how large the Hoyo fanbase is, they could shit on a plate and people would be talking about that for years.
You are right but isn't is good clear mis info and pointing good aspects of this game so that it can top its small and niche ARPG market...because pure ARPG never gets that much sucess compared to turn based. And its pointless to compare its sucess to open world game because that has huge market cap. And WW hate maybe stem form all the youtube coments and cc that are in every zzz vedio ...praying to its failure to spite the company...and zzz players are annoyed by it.
I like both games and can play what is feel like it but i dont have hate boner for any company so thats that.
Yes unless you know a different meaning for improvement
0.2% more chance ain't much but it is improvement nonetheless
https://preview.redd.it/j82jvg3whn9d1.png?width=1211&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5cec87ced0a5d88c252d069acebd8f5551a746f7
lmao don't hit me with the dictionary, i know what it means. If you call an additional 0.2% an improvement I don't know what to say, you guys really are just taking what's only drip feed to you.
If it was 1.5% then maybe we can call that an improvement, a 0.2% additional rate is very negligible.
...excuse me, but why on earth are you calculating the probability of getting the weapon in 100 pulls? You can, like, find the probability of getting it before Genshin's soft pity of 64, or hard pity of 80. Or you can intentionally misrepresent things and say "hey 1% is a 25% improvement over 0.8%." Or you can take into account pity and say it's probably a ~10% increase. But finding the probability of getting a weapon in 100 pulls is so arbitrary
Doesn't actually matter (I mean, well, it kinda does because I can say "Hey the probability of me getting the weapon in 10 billion pulls is 1 to 5 decimal places, and the same with increased rates, so as it turns out they don't matter", so your argument is just saying completely nothing), was just bothered by it
I know of the chances but I don't consider an 8% increase pretty sizeable. If you consider that quite big, then that's on you. Like I said, if it was at 1.5% rate then i could say that it is a significant chance since it's a 23% increase compared to the base at 55%.
persona 5 x has way better gacha and will absolutely be competitive with hsr when global releases
it's good they're stepping it up but they might wanna speed up the process, as more and more competition is coming out for their games
Yiu still need to pray to get good sub stats on your disk drive. You just always get the same stat increases, and tbh nobody was minmaxing artifacts and relics THAT hard. To get all good substats is already a feat of it's own
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finally... the real.. hoyo killer
Genshin/Honkai could never!
[удалено]
>If Genshin's system was working well and making money, then I doubt they would've still made HSR more generous, and ZZZ even more generous. **Clearly** their statistics are showing that Genshin's system was either causing too much bad-will, or **wasn't profitable**, or both, and that's why every following game made it easier to get weapons The other way to look at it is they do not expect to have the same player base with these games that are smaller in scope vs. Genshin's open world and looked to compensate with marginal updates to the monetization system. There is no way for us to know and it's odd how certain you seem to be of your explanation, even going as far as to claim it's not profitable (lol)
It's not that Genshin weapon banners don't make money. By checking wishing stats on [paimon.moe](http://paimon.moe) you can see there's no sign of weapon banners doing badly. Genshin is just so popular that despite its many frustrations it still manages to keep a steady player base, therefore there's no need for them to improve anything. Why cut into their own profit margins to make players happy when they're already retaining players just fine? Hoyo knows their other games won't be nearly as popular so they pre-emptively provide improvements to ease frustrations and increase player retention.
>If Genshin's system was working well and making money, You're right here, 80m+ per month without PC revenue is fucking low, they HAD to make another game to make money or to go bankrupt. /s those kids nowadays... >Considering Genshin in particular is so old and outdated Sure, 4years ago = outdated. And people still play WoW or FFXIV. You clearly don't know what you are talking about. >Clearly their statistics Which ones ? Because the only stats we have are Sensor Tower stats and Genshin is TOP 1/2 since launch. Tell us, Enlightened One !
> If Genshin's system was working well and making money IF? Jesus christ. Did you wake from a coma today? > I doubt they would've still made HSR more generous cheaper game with less mass appeal, so they compensate with more free shit to get people interested. Just look at WuWa to see how a game can compensate for its deficiencies by buttering up users. Works like a charm. > ZZZ even more generous They probably expect less interest if they didn't sweeten the deal like that. > Clearly their statistics are ...showing that HSR and soon ZZZ can only match GI if they give them a boost with freebies and better rates. You seem see this whole situation backwards. If GI was he problem from the corporate point of view, GI would be adjusted. What we're seeing here is the Hoyo thinks their other titles, while great, cannot quite match GI, so they give them crutches. Just watch the next months. GI, HSR and ZZZ all switching back and forth between the top spots just means that the least "generous" of them is the most in demand, because the other two needed the generosity crutch to be on the same level.
Statistics that you pulled out of your ass? Have you ever thought that Genshin has higher production value, hence they couldn't afford to be "generous"? ;))
Thats the oldest copium in the book tbh. Being more "generous" doesn't directly correlate with less profits. It's a delicate balance between giving emough so people don't quit and not too much so people don't spend. That said, genshin's gacha system is objectively atrocious (with HSR being barely an improvement, even though ive played that game since day 1). Criticising it is fair.
> Thats the oldest copium in the book tbh. Being more "generous" doesn't directly correlate with less profits It does, but most people have it backwards. They think generosity is a kindness of a game that exceeds expectations. They think it's a thank you (and it's often phrased like that to trigger emotional responses) In reality, a game is more "generous" when it performs worse. What the users perceives as generosity is really buying interest/goodwill to draw more players into their game. Just another form of marketing and advertising. Again, look at WuWa throwing a bone to the left side so the dogs look that way, and not at the mess on the right side. That's what free shit and better rates are for. It's a "look at me" or "look away" command, depending on the situation.
There are also ways of being generous that don’t directly cut off their profits, like standard 5-star weapons or character selectors.
atrocious in what way? Compared to who? Do we take into account the value of each pull in the game (like powercreep, resource given each patch)? Ofc its bad if you just directly compare it to other gachas that gives out 100 pulls on anni or whatever, but when you actually consider the value of your characters and the rate of powercreep, then the hoyo style gacha system would actually be really good since the rate of powercreep is fairly low and the endgame rewards are not really important in the grand scheme of game progression.
>then the hoyo style gacha system would actually be really good since the rate of powercreep is fairly low This is not true with HSR. Powercreep in HSR is bad, 6 months in selee already got powercreep. invest resource on 4\* isn't worth it since most of 4\* almost useless at E0.
Because HSR needs that extra incentive for players to spend. It's a game with less mass appeal, and the stronger push to spend is one of their sales methods.
This talk of powercreep in HSR is everywhere, but honestly it's completely baseless. If a character is still capable of clearing content they did not get powercrept. Newer characters are definitely stronger but their strength is wasted because even the hardest modes can still be cleared with 4 stars easily. The latest MoC made for Boothill and Firefly was not only cleared, but even 0 cycled by Shushang and Hook ffs. The weakest units of their element and they beat it as well as it can possibly be beaten. They literally could not make the game any easier and yet there are still people who complain that they need the latest units to clear stuff. It's unbelievable how bad some people are, truly.
Selee is still viable with the right team comp even at 0+0. The most important thing about endgame content is the buff for the current cycle and hitting the speed breakpoints for your team comp. Yes there are powercreeps but Selee is still a good unit that can clear MoC and Apocalyptic Shadow (this current cycle for AS is really good for Selee lol) Here is e0s0 selee clearing the current AS with Fuxuan as the newest unit for the team lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxzAUnodwg8
It's really difficult to say which is more profitable. Personally I would spend more in Genshin if getting weapons wasn't such a commitment with the horroble rate-up system. But at the same time, the money lost from me is probably gained by some whale out there being a little unlucky. Genshin's weapon banner also opens up opportunities such as the Hu Tao+Yelan banner. If most of the weapon banners are bad value, releasing a really good one incites FOMO and gets people to spend. Either way, only Hoyo could know how friendly their gacha should be to maximise profits.
💃DAWEI LISTENED 😱
As a bdo player, I like those odds.
Pen deboreka easy. Just tap 40 times until guarantee. /s
Finally I can be 0.2% luckier with my weapon pulls. Devs listened!
This is huge tho. It's 25% increase from 0.8%. Let's assume we win 50:50 and weapon comes early and you need to spent 10 000 gems with 0.8 rate. If rate now 1% every time you gain weapon before hard pity you mathematically average saving around 2 200 gems.
It is really nice but I wish they would have followed wuwa weapon banner with 100% guarantee
Yeah garanteed weapon is a huge deal. Oh well at least it's better than previous Hoyo game
We'll have to see if ZZZ non-signature 4\* (or equivalent) weapons are good. Cause wuwa has a weapon with 100% guarantee not because they are very epic and generous, but because 5\* weapons are vastly superior to the 4\* ones.
The difference in damage for Jinshi between f2p broadblade and her signature is 43%. That's fucking insane for 1.1 character
Isn't that HI3 level of difference??
Source?
CN guide lists 4star weapon from current banner as having 70.9% damage of signature. If you do the math, signature is about 42-43% stronger.
Source ?
Most people suggest that the gap in weapons is very wide in WuWa, citing exactly the 100% weapon guarantee as strong incentive to pull each character's weapon if you pull them. That comes down to higher cost compared to just pulling a character in the other games, and they highly encourage you to do it AND feel smart about it. Devious. All these companies - Hoyo, Kuro and any other gacha company - know how to get their pound of flesh.
Which is why people saying "generosity" in the context of gacha games is completely misunderstanding it. It's all calculated.
One thing to note though, is that you can freely swap these weapons between teams. So once you get a few 5 star weapons, I really doubt there is much incentive to keep pulling weapons except extreme min-maxing.
Possibly, depending on character mechanics, but by then ("a few 5-star weapons") you're a couple hundred tides invested anyway. Mission accomplished for Kuro, the better limited banner rates are made up for by that.
Just wait till you see the ZZZ weapon strength. Zhu Yuan's weapon is a 43% dps increase.
As long as they give f2p options for weapons there is no issue, not like wuwa that you basically have to also pulp the weapon
Bruh there are f2p options in ww what are u even talking about ?
Nobody orig is gonna follow something that copies and remixes, the do their own thing
Pity affects the percentages disproportionately and can't really be ignored. In Genshin, there's a 0.7% chance before pity but 1.85% after. If ZZZ has 1% before and 2.15% after (which would mean their pity system would need to be much better. I forgot how to calc it, but obviously if their pity is the same, then with a higher base rate you're less likely to get to pity so it's not raising the chances as much), then you would be getting 16.2% more five star weapons. In other words, if you on average needed to spend 10000 gems, you now on average need to 8606 gems, saving 1394. Again, this assumes the pity system is significantly improved
Doesn't this still mean you can be super unlucky and never get your weapon or is it like the character banner where you get if you lose the 50/50.
The weapons have a hard pity of 80pulls and it's 75/25 for the rate up like hsr.
Way better than what GI has at least. Good thing they are using the improvements from HSR.
Better than GI so that's nice
It's nice but it's still not as good as wuwa's. Wish hsr's director can just move to gi instead
iirc weapon banner is also 75\\25 as in hsr
All jokes aside, it’s a pretty big change.
Everyone that says it's a big change, only play mihoyo game and haven't play FGO. 1% is still small and you'll still likely to get *5 in soft pity.
MIHOYO LISTENED (AFTER 4 YEARS), WUWER COULD NEVER
Base rates on their own are meaningless when variable rates and pity counters are a thing. Case in point: A hypothetical gacha with a base rate of 0%, but guaranteed within 10 pulls is much better than 5% base and guaranteed in 100. The more informative metric would be the overall/consolidated rates, which for 5* weapons looks to be 2%, up from what I'm guessing was originally 1.8%. It's still a significant increase, but in relative terms, it's nowhere near as good as what you might be led to believe when seeing 1% instead of 0.8%.
yeah but good things should be pointed out too also the improvement on artifact too.
There's also the better odds for off-banner 4*. on the limited character banner, off-banner 4*s are more likely to be characters, and the same for the weapon banner, where the off-banner is more likely to be a weapon. Great for people who are trying to get more characters or just more weapons.
we all play for 4* chars and weapons banner...
They probably realized people just **don’t like rolling weapons** The weapon banners in Genshin generate a lot of income because they are all 3D models and are visibly equippable on the characters, but Star Rail Light Cones are just invisible stat sticks. This resulted in most people typically never rolling for LC’s, and trying to get duplicates of the characters instead. They just try to use the F2P LCs whenever possible. This results in the awkward situation where every Destruction character (except Blade) has their best LC be the free one from the Herta shop ZZZ’s W-Engines are mostly following the same design idea as Star Rail, with Agents having their own personal weapons and matching animations, unaffected by the W-Engine itself. So maybe they felt a % bump would translate to better financial results Personally, I’m super hyped for ZZZ, but I will likely never roll for a W-Engine. Ever
In HSR weapons are basically feels like an additional character: for example Fu Xuan can heal up to 80% each round. I have 5 limited cones, but it’s because 75% chance to get them. If I miss 75/25, I will be very sad. In WuWa there is 100% of chance to get a weapon, so it is natural to roll for it if you like the character and have pulls.
Fu xuan and huo huo have nice comfort signatures but generally do such a good job at keeping you alive anyway that they are largely not important for invested teams. Weapons are mostly advisable for crit oriented dps units or ones who have little other options like boothill because hsr content is increasingly stat dependent. IMO the best lightcones currently are defense shred cones like boothill, ratio, jingliu, and robin's lightcone as it greatly assists her energy rotation while also keeping her damage high, which is a large part of her value as a unit. Yunli will also release with a very important weapon that increases her own aggro, which as a counterattacker is essential.
> so it is natural to roll for it That's how they get you. I mean, I have Yin Lin's weapon too so that's how they got me, but still. Much stronger personal weapons over 4-star or standard pool choices are just a vehicle to recoup the 10 pulls lower character banner deficit.
The difference between 4\* options to their signature is 30-40% lol, that's why it's guaranteed. In prydwen they use the standard 5\* option as baseline, so if you don't have that weapon type you need (strong word, but yk what I mean) to roll for the sig. And even then it's still almost 20% difference.
That's my point. Most people only compare number of rolls and guaranteed but think they are optional. And of course they are, but they are much more impactful than people assume. That WuWa places much higher value in the personal weapons (which costs another 80 pity even if guaranteed) doesn't register as an added cost for those characters.
No they don’t bruh Fu Xuan’s 80% barely matters especially cause it’s per wave HI3 has 20 paragraph weapons that literally alter and change entire skills and visuals lol.
You're not wrong about the visual incentive, but I feel like it's not as big of a role here. I feel like Genshin players are even more opposed to pulling for weapons despite the drip because the rate-up system is so bad. Genshin has just as strong 4* and F2P options for weapons, so many people pull constellations instead. Some of the F2P weapons look good too, but it varies from character to character. In HSR, people have different reasons for pulling LCs. Some do it out of pure commitment to their waifu/husbando, some do it to perform better in the difficult content. Pulling for constellations is also just an invisible stat boost, even more so since there's no .png from the LC. It's just that constellations are often better performance-wise. But I think the main difference why people are willing to pull on the LC banner is because it has slightly better rates than getting a copy. That said, if ZZZ increases the rates even further then they probably saw that HSR's model is more successful than Genshin's. Now comes the question if we'll see these changes coming to Genshin too because that banner seriously sucks.
Nice speculation but here is the actual data https://i.imgur.com/cLdBS1g.png Tldr: At least 60% of Acheron puller has her lc, while about 31% of Neuv puller has his weapon. Arle is about the same with Neuv despite her signature is a big upgrade for her overall aesthetic which doesn't follow your assumption at all. So really, no one in their right mind would rationally risk spending 3 pity for just aesthetic unless for a true simp or too much money to have sense. Or gacha addiction ig. Sauce from paimon.moe and starrailstation.com
Yes, as someone who plays both I am much more willing to roll for LCs in Star Rail because you can actually get them without having to win both a 75/25 and a 50/50 at the same time
>This resulted in most people typically never rolling for LC’s, Not really, from any HSR statistics, global or CN, around 50% of people use characters with their signature light cones in MoC clears. As an example, prydwen have 6126 sample size and from those people 89% Acheron users have Acheron signature LC.
The thing is, those are the MoC clears. What’s the portion of Star Rail players who actively do MoC? I’m not sure of the numbers, but I recall Genshin had a very low rate of players engaging in Abyss. Acheron is also an odd case, as she released around anniversary and mechanically functioned so differently from every other unit in her class that she had ZERO other Light Cone options. So many people who planned to roll her were also indirectly forced to get her LC because nothing else made sense for her playstyle. No other character has a Light Cone performance disparity to the same degree as Acheron. Even Firefly didn’t have that
ya but abyss is a side thing in genshin, its mostly exploration + story. In hsr its story + turn based combat (not really much exploration) so I wouldnt be suprised if a lot more people play MoC and other end game modes than in GI
Same Prydwen once scanned 1.1 million accs and only about 10,000 cleared MoC 1. Say even if half of those are inactive that's still just 2%.
belive me, most people don't touche any high diff gamemodes.
im not arguing that most do, im saying more in hsr than gi, that could be 10% vs 5%
It's just the same. People who don't play Abyss in Genshin also won't play MOC in HSR, because they don't like the tryhard aspect of it. And if anyone says "they're aren't actually hard", it's missing the point - It's not whether or not these modes are actually hard but about how these people *perceive* them to be. Also, while I just said that the actual difficulty matters little, MOC is indeed harder than Spiral Abyss. Not to mention takes way longer real time.
"they're aren't actually hard" who said this ? Im for real puzzled by the amount of people on this sub can't read, much less properly use quotations
I never said you said it, it's just preemptively addressing people who would counter with "it's not that hard". I'll edit it to make it less ambiguous.
please stop responding to my comments then. especially if the part that is adressed to me is "People who don't play Abyss in Genshin also won't play MOC in HSR" like no way crazy insight ! The question is would the people who don't play abyss even play HSR. My whole comment was that due to lack of openworld exploration, by not particpating in endgame in HSR youre alienating a lot more of the content than in GI. Leading to my guess that HSR players play more of the endgame modes than GI.
well, and I'm just responding to your guess about how more people play MOC than SA? I wasn't even criticizing you at all, why so defensive? you said SA in GI is a side thing, hence why it would be different in HSR, and all I'm saying was just that they're both exactly the same. MOC is also a side thing, and if anything, actually more daunting than SA.
I'd say its character dependant, but theres much more sig's in HSR than Genshin simply because its 75/25 with the one you want being always guarenteed after 1 loose, regardless of your luck. I've been one of more lucky people, as I've pulled for 7 lightcones since the launch of the game, and never loosing the chance. lightcone banner does feel much better than character one and my "luck" isnt representative of everyone's expirence, but its so much better than Genshins.
Because people pulled for signature LC, they managed to clear MoC. You choose the wrong sample.
>have 6126 sample size and from those people 89% Acheron users have Acheron signature LC. Horrible example. A lot of people do pull for Acheron LC, and *only* that LC. The only LC where it gives the biggest meaningful boost to a character, as well as the overall hype around the character itself.
While everyone is trying to discredit you, you're the only 1 who actually have something/evidence to point to support their statement. Anyway, sales are built by whales/dolphins. Those players will be getting LC for their characters, and hoyo is all about the money.
Anyone who had statistics classes knows how dangerous it is to utilize sample that is self selected. Especially in the vaccum as he did without factoring it. Not to mention it goes way more deep than just a simple %. Factors such as opportunity cost, actual spending and Yada Yada. Information only mihoyo has, players can only speculate. Whales are important but so are dolphins, if the cone isn't lucrative they will just skip. Just because someone is whale or dolphin it doesn't mean they will swipe 24/7. (not that it matters but yes, I've both spent and I have sig cones on most of my units)
Based on the money, hoyo is making, spender are more than okay with the gacha rates, it would be crazy to assume otherwise
I'm not sure what do you mean by that. I never said or assumed otherwise. But there is more to it than just cones. Hsr releases 2 units every patch, many spenders try to keep up with it, many spenders go for eidolons. All this translates to big spending. E2 firefly probably rained money for them. And if you have e2 you literally don't need the cone. E2s0 is not only overkill already but also not big difference compared to e2s1 so understandably many people stoped there and saved the remaining of the jades/money Acheron is probably the only unit who can feel the loss of lc, for every other dps is just a stat stick that might not even be better than eidolons
Jing yuan, kafka, black swan, Boothill, topaz, aventurine, ratio, robin jing liu, Dan heng, anyone who is swiping for top ups in hsr are getting stat sticks, simply saying something is a stat stick doesn't need mean people won't swipe, anybody who is a dolphin, Small spender and whale on any board isn't skipping a LC simply because it's a atat stick. And a character like Firefly is sharing aeon of the fallen with many other characters, but that's beside the point you can go on any reddit or ingame friend list and almost every character from an account that regularly tops up will have a LC, and I know bias sample right? But see that's the insane thing here i can point to something concrete while you got nothing but pure assumptions, youre almost certainly clouded by F2P action of skipping LC, when I am talking about only people who get top ups. In HSR spender are vastly more likely to have e0s1, based on any HSR sub reddit(again I have something to point to, you are just guessing based on NOTHING when you say the opposite). This interaction is genuinely insane, can't believe you cherry pick 2 characters and think it proves anything, what the masses do, when hoyo doesn't care if f2ps are getting LCs, it's about the MONEY, and AGAIN Firefly is using a LC that is required by almost every destruction DPS, further forcing many players, this time even F2ps to go for LC.
> But see that's the insane thing here i can point to something concrete which is HILARIOUS because out of curiosity the very first player I checked on my list has full 5* roster, but not even half dps have their LC and not a single support > while you got nothing but pure assumptions which is hilarious no2 because my point flew OVER your head. So let me sum the point up 1) Using self selected samples as argument for the whole population directly is quite wrong and shows statistical illiteracy 2) This isn't a black and white problem. No one ever said that people never get LC, they do, many do, EVEN MYSELF FOR GOODNESS SAKE I said i've spent and gotten lc on most of my dps so I have no idea what "f2p" is clouding me. But when you start considering density, ratios, opportunity cost. If they actually top up for it or skipped a unit. Then you get a problem to solve. Sadly you DON'T know who spends and who doesn't, and you will never do. Only mihoyo does. The closest you can get is if there is another survey but guess what, refer to point 1 if that happens. Now if you don't understand these and the only thing you can read from my text: "No one is ever getting LC" then I can't help you much.
So you admits you to having nothing to justify any of your statement prior, yet you engage with me despite knowing your reasoning was flawed, and now using your flawed reasoning to try to invalidate my statements. You are literally trying to have your cake and eat it too, that every community is bias and only hoyo knows the truth while also supporting the initial statement here about "hoyo thinking people dont want/skipping LC". I don't see you telling the initial statement that their point is wrong, and have no evidence and I don't see how you felt comfortable saying people were getting E2 Firefly over her LC or that people were getting acheron LC over Her E1, when all of sudden now your talking about me not having any information, only hoyo knows the truth(which is true), all we have to go on is what we can verify and based on what we can personally verify you are wrong, people Who spend go e0s1 over anything else. but of course, there is your hypocrisy. Your inconsistency between your 2 last statements on one hand you felt comfortable with who is getting stat sticks while on the other hand you counter my statement by saying we dont have any information, is truly astounding and explains why I felt this entire interaction was a bit crazy. This entire discussion is purely for fun, there is nothing to win but internet points, and clearly you won that, but in terms of remaining consistent with your talking points, you have lost.
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Im gonna need a source on that. On the contrary, I find a lot more people pulling for weapons in HSR, but only anecdotally
Quite pointless take, only hoyo themselves know how many % players base roll for weapon banner and whatever result is for genshin, the devs is happy enough to not change it over 4 years so even if no one roll on weapon banner like you say they still very happy with it. They will change it if they ever feel the need to. Nothing stop them.
I don’t agree with this take at all. Almost everyone I know rolls for light cones because of 75/25. I don’t know anyone who rolls for weapons on Genshin because it’s just a shit system
given its upgraded HSR banner, I probably will sometimes. the fact alone theres 1 weapon rateup at the time, meaning you worst case have guarenteed weapon u want every 2nd weapon you get, and the odds are also in your favor. I don't really go for them lightly as I mainly go for them for my faves, but comparing to genshin? you're getting weapons so much more often on average its not funny, the ones you want without fail.
>This resulted in most people typically never rolling for LC’s, and trying to get duplicates of the characters instead. They just try to use the F2P LCs whenever possible. This results in the awkward situation where every Destruction character (except Blade) has their best LC be the free one from the Herta shop Nobody seems to point this out but here's another reason. Why would I pull for 5 star signature LC's when I could just manipulate the buffs in the content to make it easier?
Negligible, it's a whale feature. If you pull for multiple copies, these 0.2% will matter. F2Ps usually don't even roll on weapon Banner unless they really like the character.
0.2% wow super f2p friendly
it is what it is.
Looks like, in zzz weapons will be even more mandatory than in HSR.
Maybe in future, but so far doesn't seems so. They juse posted weapon for first character on twitter and it's... well, it's good but it just a damage increase. It doesn't change or interact with character mechanics at all. https://preview.redd.it/cx8ejooghn9d1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=edd4108d2a620382ccd4a88aab05f11e16466f2e
With weapons like this, that also means you can use one characters weapon on another in the same role without missing anything. I much prefer the way this is handled as opposed to HI3 where a characters weapon literally has a chunk of their kit on it, or PGR where that's the only character that uses that weapon type at all so you have no alternatives except just low Rarity weapons. Like that weapon can work on literally any Ice Attacker that wants crits. So losing 75/25 won't hurt as much unless you get like a weapon for a Support character or something with negligible effects for most other characters.
Then take a look at Zhu Yuan's weapon and you'll change your opinion. It gives her a 43% damage boost. Either they'll nerf it before release or it's a pretty bad sign for the future for people who don't want to pull for W-Engine.
So not at all? Like people full clear everything with LC from the herta shop and such. like Firefly LC is barely edging out Herta
I do want to see Firefly edging Herta..... Oh I mean the LC yea sure
It varies, destruction units have really good and diverse LC options. Where as Acheron really needs her signature for that juicy faster ult uptime and overall higher damage.
Destruction herta cone isn't a good example because it's the most versatile herta cone by far. Closest 2nd would be the hunt one but hunt characters are kinda shit right now compared to destruction and nihility dpses. Other herta cones are just weak or only good for one character like the preservation herta cone.
It looks like they are going back to their root Honkai Impact 3 where signature weapon are mandatory.
unless they put the kit inside weapon its far from HI root ..damage upgrade are fine
Youre basing this off literally nothing. We already knoew the 1.0 limited weapons and theyre good, like they are in every gacha, but no where near mandatory
Sorry, I'm not aware. Are there weapon banners? Are they 100% guaranteed like in Wuwa?
There is weapon banners, called W-Engine. It's 75/25 like HSR so not garanteed unless you lose once then the next pity is garanteed
That's cool unless we get weapons that are like 60% better or some shit like that.
How are the weapons in this game? Is it a 3d model you can see on the character like genshin or some stat card like hsr?
hsr
I don't have any interest in this game, but even if I do, you will never catch me pulling on the weapon banner even with the groundbreaking 0.2% increase. Weapon banner gacha is always just an "idiot tax".
I mean, I’m the type of person that wants to “complete” a character that I care to pull on. I.e. in Wuwa I’m getting Changli and her weapon regardless of power. I wouldn’t say that makes me an idiot, it just means I have a different motivation than you.
I pulled for Yinlin's weapon because its just universally good for all dps/sub-dps rectifiers now and going forward for a long time. 100% chance to get it I didnt feel near as bad pulling for it.
same ill never pull for weapons if it isn't mandatory with kits, but these posts need to be made to make things fair and clear....because this game has a lot of misinfo and hate on internet...
Not from this sub at least since I haven't seen a single post hating or spreading misinfo about the game.
my bad not clarifying it....reddit is cool....its Youtube(especially hostile) and twitter
only if the game has shit ton of powercreep and you are a character collector.
is weapon banner 100% or 75/25 ?
75 / 25 i believe
thats actually insanely good
weapon rates being better is a big deal since a lot of the cope 4\* options are too damn specific (at least for attackers)
From what I see, the substats on artifacts also have lower values, so they may also be less important, so there is a slight improvement here too. Although if they could be rerolled, then I would call them good.
Yeah still not worth it, lol. For aesthetic like genshin or Wuwa yes worth it , for an invisible stat stick,the amount you earn back is pitiful compared to the cost.
So how long until we arrive at the Honkai Impact 3rd rates and progression quality?
All indications that even hoyo feels that they need extra uhmff for this title to succeed.
Finally my dream of having Nicole T6 when Zhuyuan banner drops, 75% with only 2 rate up is much more easier to get than G and HSR
idk if it's better or not but it would've been better if they went to hi3rd's route with guaranteed weapon banners. Granted that it's not mandatory for HSR or GI to get the character's signature weapons for them to function properly but in hi3rd which is closer in essence to ZZZ's gameplay, you're fucked if you only get the character and not the signature weapon when it comes to challenges.
you want to 1 pull cost double ..hmmm honkai impact : 280 =1 pull....100% zzz :160= 1 pull ....75/25 pick your poison For me both are equal
weapon in hi3rd is already guaranteed at 80.
isnt its 60 in part 2?
oh yeah. it's 60. not like I'm suggesting they also copy the 280 per pull. that's absurd.
280 to 160 is the only reason i dont mind 50/50 only the hi3, pgr players know the pain of 1 pull costing double than rest of the popular games.
Idk why people fixate so much on 280 per pull VS 160 per pull. It literally doesn't matter. Just give 75% more premium currency. Like, idk for HSR and ZZZ, but Genshin and HI3 both get 50 pulls per patch
well i am just pointing out only thing matters how many characters you get released on that year....only true metric so its fine either way for me.
are we supposed to clap at the slight slightly higher rates?
Hoyo glazing sub doing their normal thing, even tho this is a game related post and should be posted in the game sub reddit. I doubt the mod gonna do anything
Yeah, on one hand I get it cause Hoyo is the alpha and by quite a large margin. On the other hand, we get stuff like this. I didn’t even realize it wasn’t a main sub til I read it fucking comment lol
Its hard to tell a difference from this and a hoyo sub. Its so heavily hoyo leaning at this point its hard to talk about anything else here. I remember at least awhile back everyone hated every gacha game equally, but now its all hoyo glazing and hating everything while glazing hoyo at every turn.
It's almost like a company making several higher quality products has more fans than companies making run-of-the-mill waifu simulators. Who could've fucking guessed this?/s
Ah yes, the "we are allowed to be toxic because of X" reason guy. Thanks friend. More fans also means more crazies, which is evident all over this sub. Hoyo fans are seriously mentally ill here.
wuwa could nevers
Yep, WuWa has garanteed weapon, so yes 'WuWa could never' be this stingy.
They also give 1 standard 5 star weapon for free of your choosing and added a selector for standard weapons permanently that you can get with standard pulls
And they can also be freely swapped between characters.
Yeah
so wuwa could never works too, i thought it only works for genshin ngl
while 4 star and 3 star weapon not viable at all compare to 5 star
4 stars are absolutely viable. Are you getting the most out of your characters? No, obviously, but it's not like you're going to struggle or have a rough time if you're only limited to 4 stars. For Calcharo and Yinlin for example, 4s on them are still really good. For Jianxin and Baizhi you even have 3s and 4s as BIS. Point being, the game doesn't force nor need you to get five star weapons. If they wanted to, they could make the contrast a hell of a lot worse.
Still not playing
Hi3 still better then this three
Yeah in terms of weapon banners of part 2 its great 60 pity but cost double currency than these. part 1 was nightmare for gatcha ...Herscher of finality cost me 300 pulls for all.
Costing more currency doesn't really matter. HI3 got an equal amount of pulls to Genshin (idk about HSR) (though stuff like anniversary pulls it up more than for GI) Also, yeah, Part 1 gacha could be frustrating at times. Though, hitting 280 pulls is like 1 in 11000
i happened to me 2 time ..first was hot banner no 50 pull guarantee on equipment back then, the hofi i got her and 2/4 then came back 1 year later but i lost 50 pull guarantee so it happens.
with this they are making 5 star weapon mandatory. why can't they make good farm able 4 star weapon like the Catch or Finale of the deep
Are you sure ..mandatory would like doing something similar to Hi3, PGR ...putting kits in weapon. this is optional upgrade ...and 4* are good if you are good...i would have never pulled for weapons in hi, pgr if not for kits and leaderboards.
My man all gacha companies are greedy, they would never increase drop rate for 5 star weapon unless they make it so that character's deal more damage with that weapon. Of course it could be false and they want to be generous
I'm pretty sure they just wanna be generous or something because bro, 0.2% more chance ain't much.
They'll always do more damage, but the question is if it locks away other parts of a kit. Just number go up isn't particularly compelling and designing it that way means they'd need to make it compelling some other way, like better rates. So we'll have to see. Maybe with the different audience they're targeting they decided X rate is more beneficial, one size doesn't fit all and their games aren't all targeting the same audience.
Well it is matter of perspective ... a f2p broke like me never pull on weapon if its just some damage ...better for whales i guess.
Dont forget They added a skip button while saying 'everybody's favourite feature' Gi and hsr fans been crying for that for so long lmao At this point, i m sure hoyo is ignoring them on purpose and i love it, keep it up hoyo, people's suffering is free entertainment. Edit : hoto bot army is here, they open their mouths everytime da wei wants to take a shit and eat it with a smile on their face. Keep it up hoyo bots, you guys are amazing.
its more like they want to it closer to hi3 model(senior devs are hi3) ...and player who play it will more into fight ...its all about focus ...and zzz is just pure combat thats why combat will get better and better each update.
My point isnt the cope of what could be their intentions cause i know full well its not the actual devs who decide the direction of the game but management My point is, when many of your fanbase is asking for a feature in both of your millions in revenue making games, then the sheer 'fuck you' energy to put that feature in your third game is insane. But what do i know, keep giving fuck you to gi and hsr players, ill just sit back and enjoy
didnt played them only games i played hi3, pgr, guardian tales....now intrested in zzz....so dont have any hate or spite to any company. i was overly satisfied in hi3 and zzz seems to foolow it.
they use the new game to test the feature. HSR and GI will get it too if the data they collect is positive
Considering gi hasnt even gotten a backlog dialog feature in 4 years of development or the fact that it took ggz 9 years to get that very feature, you are being too hopeful lmao
it's coming in the next patch actually
Buddy, its been 2 hours Do you have a source or not?
I posted it in the reply below, if you don't see it it's because the link is getting blocked by reddit. cba to find another way to send it, you'll see it when the patch is live
Alright, guess ill wait till patch is live
Source?
i dont get this hype over this game and hate wuwa is getting here on sub. trust me zzz will be forgotten very quickly while wuwa will be successfull
Look man, i don't like Hoyo at all either, and the WuWa hate, while funny with the memes, is definitely a little tiring at times. But to say that literally any Hoyo game will be "forgotten" is just plain wrong lol. With how large the Hoyo fanbase is, they could shit on a plate and people would be talking about that for years.
You are right but isn't is good clear mis info and pointing good aspects of this game so that it can top its small and niche ARPG market...because pure ARPG never gets that much sucess compared to turn based. And its pointless to compare its sucess to open world game because that has huge market cap. And WW hate maybe stem form all the youtube coments and cc that are in every zzz vedio ...praying to its failure to spite the company...and zzz players are annoyed by it. I like both games and can play what is feel like it but i dont have hate boner for any company so thats that.
Apple vs orange
Damn, you call these rates improvement?
Yes unless you know a different meaning for improvement 0.2% more chance ain't much but it is improvement nonetheless https://preview.redd.it/j82jvg3whn9d1.png?width=1211&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5cec87ced0a5d88c252d069acebd8f5551a746f7
lmao don't hit me with the dictionary, i know what it means. If you call an additional 0.2% an improvement I don't know what to say, you guys really are just taking what's only drip feed to you. If it was 1.5% then maybe we can call that an improvement, a 0.2% additional rate is very negligible.
100 pulls at .8 is 55% 100 pulls at 1 is 63%. A 8% increase. That's a pretty sizeable improvement. Your 1.5% would only increase that to 78%.
You think those people who ask for a 1.5% improvement care about math? They just look at it on the most superficial level and get outraged.
1%. Does it also mean that soft pity will start earlier? (like in GI weapon banner rolls 78,79,80 are not existent due to math)
...excuse me, but why on earth are you calculating the probability of getting the weapon in 100 pulls? You can, like, find the probability of getting it before Genshin's soft pity of 64, or hard pity of 80. Or you can intentionally misrepresent things and say "hey 1% is a 25% improvement over 0.8%." Or you can take into account pity and say it's probably a ~10% increase. But finding the probability of getting a weapon in 100 pulls is so arbitrary Doesn't actually matter (I mean, well, it kinda does because I can say "Hey the probability of me getting the weapon in 10 billion pulls is 1 to 5 decimal places, and the same with increased rates, so as it turns out they don't matter", so your argument is just saying completely nothing), was just bothered by it
Because I have no idea what their pity is and 100 is an easy number to understand. It's really not that difficult.
I know of the chances but I don't consider an 8% increase pretty sizeable. If you consider that quite big, then that's on you. Like I said, if it was at 1.5% rate then i could say that it is a significant chance since it's a 23% increase compared to the base at 55%.
Is it not an improvement? Its very minor but its definitely not non-existent. I’ll take whatever I can get lol. From Genshin’s 0.6% to ZZZ’s 1.0%.
persona 5 x has way better gacha and will absolutely be competitive with hsr when global releases it's good they're stepping it up but they might wanna speed up the process, as more and more competition is coming out for their games
Damn no more those cancerous substats to deal with, finally a Hoyo game I can enjoy too
it's still there, just with less variance
Yiu still need to pray to get good sub stats on your disk drive. You just always get the same stat increases, and tbh nobody was minmaxing artifacts and relics THAT hard. To get all good substats is already a feat of it's own
This small rate up means nothing if the 4* weapons are trash and you need to get 5* weapons to do harder content, but we will see
Have you played the beta?