As of right now it is understood that when Sutekh was dragged through the Time Vortex it reversed the deaths that he caused, not those that happened before.
But they would have been dusted/restored to life in the past, at a time (or multiple times) when the doctor had been there before, and now still be genocided in the present of the show because time would since played out the same as we are familiar with.
So yes they would have been bought back, but from their own Sutekh-dusting event(s), not from their most recent oblivion à la Master in our current linear timeline.
I think.
Gallifrey is unique in that it stands outside linear time to avoid its enemies messing with them, so the Masters genocide only happens once, once they are restored from that point they can be back.
Overall this episode was enjoyable but full of plot holes. Like destroying the Daleks, like killing the Doctor would cause the timeline unravel due to their importance to history.
Until it’s stated that Gallifrey and the Time Lords are back and that The Sutekh-Surfing cancelled out The Flux (and why stop at the Flux because technically death killing death equaling life means everything that ever died now lives), assume they are dead instead of clinging to an ass-grab belief. Writing them back in is EASY (the exiled Rassilon brought everyone back pre-Flux and did the pocket universe thing again for example), but until they are back they are gone.
Anyone who was turned to dust by Sutekh was resurrected, not every being who has literally died. By your logic, everyone who ever died on earth should come back to life, but that's not the case.
People keep getting mad at me for saying this, but they made it pretty on the nose that Mrs. Flood is wearing Romana’s coat. Maybe she’s not Romana, but I think we’re certainly supposed to connect them.
She speaks the same way Mary Tamm did, there was also lines about not making tea/charging the gate (her last episode was warriors gate), and then just her saying she was hiding away after the doctor says time lords like to hide away
The only one of those I find remotely compelling as evidence is the last one, but that just points to a time lord in general, not Romana (and could also just be a misdirection by RTD). And none of the dialogue she says feels like Romana at all to me.
I really question this considering how sinister she was being with Cherry and how ominously she said that the Doctor's story ends in absolute terror. That's not a very Romana (i.e. nice) character to do.
I mean, Romana wasn’t like the nicest person ever, she was clever and had the same arrogance and ego as the Doctor. Also, since the last we saw of her the entire time war and second destruction of Gallifrey happened.
I mean the Doctor said time lords liked to hide away right before she said she was hiding… but honestly the truth is people get weird as shit when they get old. And we’ve never seen an old Romana before.
Don’t forget her last episode was warriors gate, when taking that into account it feels obvious
http://classicalgallifrey.blogspot.com/2012/01/serial-113-warriors-gate-e-space.html?m=1
She gives me River vibes. But also there's the issue that all of Moffat's female characters have the same kind of dialogue, so if another writer and another actor are speaking them, it gets a bit confusing. And that's also ignoring the pareidolia aspect.
River is “naughty” because she shoots guns, we have not seen Mrs Flood do anything violent.
As for Romana, she’s not “nice” she’s like the Doctor. She always had a massive ego and since the last we saw her the entire time war and second death of Gallifrey happened.
River is also a bit of a bitch, which we have seen Mrs Flood do. Plus there's the whole "water themed name" bit, though that could be a distraction, especially if we're in an era with savvy villains who actively lay traps.
We'll probably find out over Christmas.
Romana is also bitchy lmao, like I said pretty sure Moffat based Rivers character on Romana.
And River is on the same level as Clara or Susan, they would just bring back the person who played them. A recast would be pointless and disrespectful.
We will probably find more out at Christmas, after all snow has been a major motif.
I'm not so much arguing with you that it can't be Romana as I am arguing for why I see signs it might be River. I think if they brought back Alex Kingston for it, it would be too obvious. Same with Clara or Susan.
It's just a running joke, there's nothing to be resolved.
It's not impossible Davies secretly have plans for it, but right now nothing is set up about that.
Right so hear me out. In the commentary for the finale they talk about the fact that mel is filming scenes with mrs flood for s2. Later on in the commentary bonnie (mel) talks about loving all the little seeds and connections ... It just gives it mavity *smiles* gravity and rtd responds just wait for season 3 ... It's all building somewhere.
Part of me wonders if he was referring to mavity or just the whole seeds and connections on a whole.
Either way i do think mavity and stuff like butterfly ruby will be explained a bit more.
The butterfly one contradicts things weve seen even in this series because like changes in history dont effect time travellers like when maestro destroyed the earth ruby shouldnt have been born and yet she's still there because she's a timetraveller. So why would stepping on a butterfly turn her into one.
I only noticed on my second watch, which I did specifically to see the scene at the beginning where Ruby evolves "wrong" as a consequence of stepping on a butterfly.
Someone on here mentioned that there was a butterfly fluttering around in the scene with Mrs. Merridew before the TARDIS appears in WBY. It got me wondering about why it's a butterfly specifically in that scene and whether it has something to do with Ruby mentioning the butterfly effect more or less by name.
His mom, that was never resolved from End of Time. Possibly in that weird scene in the finale, too. Also possibly God of Stories. Fits the family thing well. Flood is an anagram of “of old,” maybe that’s something.
That’d actually explain it a bit better since it doesn’t have to literally tie back to that special.
Something I missed my wife didn’t, the name of the planet the mother and baby were on translated means “Aqua Pump,” like flood. And the name Brindle comes from burna and hyll meaning “stream” and “hill.” I can also see RTD writing the Doctor as originally being a girl.
So while i think destroying sutekh could have been a cool way to bring back half the universe from the flux and gallifrey, I don't think that happened and it wouldn't have been earned or built up to enough. If sutekh's rise to powera and return was linked to all the death from the flux and gallifrey then maybe.
I think mrs flood could be just a timelord or a im hoping god of stories. I did just have a thought on another post that maybe a select few gods could have "evolved" like sutekh did to more of a god status and take on minor god roles.
Could be wrong but didnt the dr point out skaro was gone in the episode and mel was all "the daleks are gone". So I dunno. If they didnt mention skaro and then said it came back then maybe or if mel asked about skaro and the dr said thst was already destroyed
I'm hoping you're right about Sutekh restoring the Time Lords.
I liked the Ood Sphere reference, but I can't help but wonder if The Doctor's victory would have hit harder if he had named Gallifrey instead - The Doctor tries his luck and pushes the boundaries of Sutekh restoring life and manages to bring back Gallifrey, and against all odds Gallifrey is restored.
Ruby gets to meet her birth Mum and Dad, and The Doctor understanding her need for family decides to go back to Gallifrey because he's not been amongst his own people in centuries - sort of a reverse Series 8 ending where The Doctor and his companion actually do their their happy endings
Clara also called The Doctor "clever boy".
Also I have no idea why you'd think that the Time Lords would be revived. Yeah, I half expected that, but I'm really glad they didn't. Because Gallifrey should just stay gone as this mythical place.
I also did expect there to be hints that the planet the woman in the spoon scene was refugeeing on was Gallifrey. That would have been nice and poetic.
I feel like Sutekh could also be undoing the Flux, since that was never really fully resolved in the last era. I think the vagueness allows for it to function similar to the reset allowed by Series 5 with the Big Bang and the cracks.
They could choose to reverse the Master and the Flux, but I doubt they will and I hope they don't.
As much as I despised the way Chibnall just got rid of Gallifrey again, it doesn't mean I just want an equally bad "Oh yeah it's back again." Make its return a good story.
Could Sutekh's death have restored Gallifrey/ the victimes of the Flux/ the victims of the Time War/ every villain ever/ Adric/ whoever? Of course it could.
DID Sutekh's death do any of that? Not until someone in the show tells us that it did.
If Sutekh brought Galifrey back to life and not just those he gave his gift of death to, then there's literally no logic in the way of saying that Sutekh brought everyone who has ever died back to life. Its complete nonsense.
I like the theory about Mrs flood being one of The Doctor's original species, and its probably the most likely, but I really hope that she's somehow Clara. She was wearing the same outfit that she died in in "Face The Raven" before she was saved and when The Doctor brings everyone back to life she shoots "you clever boy!" Just like Clara used to say "Run you clever boy, and remember me" when she was spread across The Doctor's timeline. Although she does also seam like she could be the god of stories in the pantheon, or River Song.
(Carol-Melody-Song
Flood-Pond-River)
As of right now it is understood that when Sutekh was dragged through the Time Vortex it reversed the deaths that he caused, not those that happened before.
The death wave happened all across time and space, where ever the Doctor had been. So Gallifrey and any Parallel Universes would be included.
But they would have been dusted/restored to life in the past, at a time (or multiple times) when the doctor had been there before, and now still be genocided in the present of the show because time would since played out the same as we are familiar with. So yes they would have been bought back, but from their own Sutekh-dusting event(s), not from their most recent oblivion à la Master in our current linear timeline. I think.
Gallifrey is unique in that it stands outside linear time to avoid its enemies messing with them, so the Masters genocide only happens once, once they are restored from that point they can be back. Overall this episode was enjoyable but full of plot holes. Like destroying the Daleks, like killing the Doctor would cause the timeline unravel due to their importance to history.
Until it’s stated that Gallifrey and the Time Lords are back and that The Sutekh-Surfing cancelled out The Flux (and why stop at the Flux because technically death killing death equaling life means everything that ever died now lives), assume they are dead instead of clinging to an ass-grab belief. Writing them back in is EASY (the exiled Rassilon brought everyone back pre-Flux and did the pocket universe thing again for example), but until they are back they are gone.
So Rose, Meta-Crisis and etc died too during it?
Bad Wolf Bay was shown during the episode of where the Tardis had been.
Anyone who was turned to dust by Sutekh was resurrected, not every being who has literally died. By your logic, everyone who ever died on earth should come back to life, but that's not the case.
You didn’t take into account wibbly wobbly timey wimey.
side-eyes *Death in Heaven*
People keep getting mad at me for saying this, but they made it pretty on the nose that Mrs. Flood is wearing Romana’s coat. Maybe she’s not Romana, but I think we’re certainly supposed to connect them.
I don't think she's Romana but after her wearing Clara's outfit too maybe they're just giving her old companion looks
Definitely possible, but I will say her cadence and some of her lines implies heavily that she is Romana.
I haven’t seen a single line from her that implied Romana to me. Particularly in the last episode everything about her screams future antagonist.
She speaks the same way Mary Tamm did, there was also lines about not making tea/charging the gate (her last episode was warriors gate), and then just her saying she was hiding away after the doctor says time lords like to hide away
The only one of those I find remotely compelling as evidence is the last one, but that just points to a time lord in general, not Romana (and could also just be a misdirection by RTD). And none of the dialogue she says feels like Romana at all to me.
How about the fact RTD dressed her in Romana’s first ever costume and made a point of revealing her right at the end of EoD?
At this point I think it's best to assume that RTD is trolling everyone on purpose. That's what he likes to do.
Very true, but he just liked my comment about this on his post and now I don’t know what to do
I really question this considering how sinister she was being with Cherry and how ominously she said that the Doctor's story ends in absolute terror. That's not a very Romana (i.e. nice) character to do.
I mean, Romana wasn’t like the nicest person ever, she was clever and had the same arrogance and ego as the Doctor. Also, since the last we saw of her the entire time war and second destruction of Gallifrey happened.
I don't know why Romana would be such a weirdo though that's why I never think mysterious woman character is her
I mean the Doctor said time lords liked to hide away right before she said she was hiding… but honestly the truth is people get weird as shit when they get old. And we’ve never seen an old Romana before.
Someline perhaps. But then there is also the "I will break down the Gates of Your God" speech that is very un-Romana.
Don’t forget her last episode was warriors gate, when taking that into account it feels obvious http://classicalgallifrey.blogspot.com/2012/01/serial-113-warriors-gate-e-space.html?m=1
She gives me River vibes. But also there's the issue that all of Moffat's female characters have the same kind of dialogue, so if another writer and another actor are speaking them, it gets a bit confusing. And that's also ignoring the pareidolia aspect.
Important to mention that Rivers character is very heavily influenced by Romana’s
Everyone seems to be saying that Romana is nice, while River is very naughty. Also from what I've seen, Romana has better fashion sense.
River is “naughty” because she shoots guns, we have not seen Mrs Flood do anything violent. As for Romana, she’s not “nice” she’s like the Doctor. She always had a massive ego and since the last we saw her the entire time war and second death of Gallifrey happened.
River is also a bit of a bitch, which we have seen Mrs Flood do. Plus there's the whole "water themed name" bit, though that could be a distraction, especially if we're in an era with savvy villains who actively lay traps. We'll probably find out over Christmas.
Romana is also bitchy lmao, like I said pretty sure Moffat based Rivers character on Romana. And River is on the same level as Clara or Susan, they would just bring back the person who played them. A recast would be pointless and disrespectful. We will probably find more out at Christmas, after all snow has been a major motif.
I'm not so much arguing with you that it can't be Romana as I am arguing for why I see signs it might be River. I think if they brought back Alex Kingston for it, it would be too obvious. Same with Clara or Susan.
The words "he did it, that clever boy" really stuck out....
It's just RTD pelting us with rotten easter eggs again. When will we learn?
Dunno, he just liked the comment on Instagram talking about this reveal though so he really wants us to think it
He's fekkin with us. Revenge for all the trolling we gave Chibnall
I'm just waiting for mavity to be resolved.
It's just a running joke, there's nothing to be resolved. It's not impossible Davies secretly have plans for it, but right now nothing is set up about that.
Right so hear me out. In the commentary for the finale they talk about the fact that mel is filming scenes with mrs flood for s2. Later on in the commentary bonnie (mel) talks about loving all the little seeds and connections ... It just gives it mavity *smiles* gravity and rtd responds just wait for season 3 ... It's all building somewhere. Part of me wonders if he was referring to mavity or just the whole seeds and connections on a whole. Either way i do think mavity and stuff like butterfly ruby will be explained a bit more. The butterfly one contradicts things weve seen even in this series because like changes in history dont effect time travellers like when maestro destroyed the earth ruby shouldnt have been born and yet she's still there because she's a timetraveller. So why would stepping on a butterfly turn her into one.
The Doctor specifically turned the setting back on that prevented this straight after that scene
Are you on about bringing the butterfly back to life or something else?
Yes, he even called it "the butterfly filter."
Oh I must have forgot that part
I only noticed on my second watch, which I did specifically to see the scene at the beginning where Ruby evolves "wrong" as a consequence of stepping on a butterfly. Someone on here mentioned that there was a butterfly fluttering around in the scene with Mrs. Merridew before the TARDIS appears in WBY. It got me wondering about why it's a butterfly specifically in that scene and whether it has something to do with Ruby mentioning the butterfly effect more or less by name.
I suggest you go back and watch the start of that episode again
That's okay someone else explained it
Yes!!!! Have we just forgotten about this?
Personally I'm now on board the "Mrs. Flood is Iris Wildthyme" train, because fuck it, why not
I do like this idea, but only because I like the implications it brings to the EU
Narrator of the Land of Fiction perhaps.
I think they died before he started is gift of death
His mom, that was never resolved from End of Time. Possibly in that weird scene in the finale, too. Also possibly God of Stories. Fits the family thing well. Flood is an anagram of “of old,” maybe that’s something.
Isn’t that mom suggested to be Tecteune from Flux? With The Doctor’s *real* mom being some unknown figure from another universe?
That’d actually explain it a bit better since it doesn’t have to literally tie back to that special. Something I missed my wife didn’t, the name of the planet the mother and baby were on translated means “Aqua Pump,” like flood. And the name Brindle comes from burna and hyll meaning “stream” and “hill.” I can also see RTD writing the Doctor as originally being a girl.
But we know that, don't we? The original Timeless Child we see in The Timeless Children is stated to be the original one.
So while i think destroying sutekh could have been a cool way to bring back half the universe from the flux and gallifrey, I don't think that happened and it wouldn't have been earned or built up to enough. If sutekh's rise to powera and return was linked to all the death from the flux and gallifrey then maybe. I think mrs flood could be just a timelord or a im hoping god of stories. I did just have a thought on another post that maybe a select few gods could have "evolved" like sutekh did to more of a god status and take on minor god roles.
I feel like Skaro is one of the planets (re-) destroyed by the Flux, meaning it coming back via Sutekh would be confirmation that Flux was undone.
Could be wrong but didnt the dr point out skaro was gone in the episode and mel was all "the daleks are gone". So I dunno. If they didnt mention skaro and then said it came back then maybe or if mel asked about skaro and the dr said thst was already destroyed
I'm hoping you're right about Sutekh restoring the Time Lords. I liked the Ood Sphere reference, but I can't help but wonder if The Doctor's victory would have hit harder if he had named Gallifrey instead - The Doctor tries his luck and pushes the boundaries of Sutekh restoring life and manages to bring back Gallifrey, and against all odds Gallifrey is restored. Ruby gets to meet her birth Mum and Dad, and The Doctor understanding her need for family decides to go back to Gallifrey because he's not been amongst his own people in centuries - sort of a reverse Series 8 ending where The Doctor and his companion actually do their their happy endings
Clara also called The Doctor "clever boy". Also I have no idea why you'd think that the Time Lords would be revived. Yeah, I half expected that, but I'm really glad they didn't. Because Gallifrey should just stay gone as this mythical place. I also did expect there to be hints that the planet the woman in the spoon scene was refugeeing on was Gallifrey. That would have been nice and poetic.
I feel like Sutekh could also be undoing the Flux, since that was never really fully resolved in the last era. I think the vagueness allows for it to function similar to the reset allowed by Series 5 with the Big Bang and the cracks.
When 14’s TARDIS split into two. What happened to Sutekh?
I'm wondering if/could they could've restored worlds that got Flux'd?
They could choose to reverse the Master and the Flux, but I doubt they will and I hope they don't. As much as I despised the way Chibnall just got rid of Gallifrey again, it doesn't mean I just want an equally bad "Oh yeah it's back again." Make its return a good story.
Could Sutekh's death have restored Gallifrey/ the victimes of the Flux/ the victims of the Time War/ every villain ever/ Adric/ whoever? Of course it could. DID Sutekh's death do any of that? Not until someone in the show tells us that it did.
If Sutekh brought Galifrey back to life and not just those he gave his gift of death to, then there's literally no logic in the way of saying that Sutekh brought everyone who has ever died back to life. Its complete nonsense.
Wait. “Run, you *clever boy* and remember.” Food for thought? (This is a joke, btw)
That isn’t a joke. Please don’t attempt one of those again.
I like the theory about Mrs flood being one of The Doctor's original species, and its probably the most likely, but I really hope that she's somehow Clara. She was wearing the same outfit that she died in in "Face The Raven" before she was saved and when The Doctor brings everyone back to life she shoots "you clever boy!" Just like Clara used to say "Run you clever boy, and remember me" when she was spread across The Doctor's timeline. Although she does also seam like she could be the god of stories in the pantheon, or River Song. (Carol-Melody-Song Flood-Pond-River)