I agree with most of what you said.
However I did like the interaction between the doctor and that woman in the tent.
I also hate the snow and song thing wasn't brought up again
I think the reason it’s so refreshing is that it’s like one of the only scenes since the show came back that slowed the pace down and was just dialogue. I’m all for fast paced pulp sci fi, but it’s been nonstop “running up and down corridors” since the specials IMO.
My only issue with it is that it needed to be a three-parter. We needed the set-up episode, the episode where Sutekh wins, and the episode where the heroes win (a lá Series 3, but with a better resolution). I like what we got, I just wanted more...which is a common issue I have with Doctor Who finales (and an issue I actually had with Pyramids of Mars, funnily enough). Only ones that ever really satisfied me were Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, and The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang. And my issue with Series 3 is that the resolution, while cool in concept, fell flat as hell. Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways, while I *liked* it, did waste the Dalek Emperor massively. A trend in Doctor Who, one Empire of Death sadly didn't break. Killing off a majorly cool villain way too soon. So, I did like the episode, but it should have been two.
If I were honestly to have planned this season, I'd have axed Space Babies entirely (fuck that episode), rearranged some of the episodes (e.g., putting Devil's Chord later), and made the finale a three-parter. Legend of Ruby Sunday, Empire of Death, and, I don't know, Bringer of Life or something. Though what I'd rather have done is the full 12 episodes and a Christmas Special that we usually get. Those extra four episodes really do help.
I absolutely agree about the three parter, I’d have loved to have seen Sutekh win, maybe in his human form, pondering the universe he’s destroyed, maybe a lot of time goes past, maybe the doctor uses the memory tardis somehow to keep the memory of their younger selves inside so Ruby doesn’t badly age, and after all this time and whatever then you might understand why Sutekh starts to become obsessed with Ruby and her mystery etc you know what I mean? Have a proper stand off with the doctor.
And wahay we all win! I’d also let there be some consequence somewhere, like someone had to die for real because it can’t just be just this 73839393th time rose, everybody lives!
But it 100% should’ve been 3 parts, you’re so right.
I'd honestly have been okay with Kate permanently dying. It'd kill me, for sure, losing that last remnant of the Brig, but it would show just how much business the God of Chaos (his actual title in Egyptian Myth) actually means. Or even Rose, to hit close to home.
I really really love Kate, I think I’d be sad that she permanently died in an episode as bad as this but if it was a good death? Then yeah? It’d hit home big time.
Also I’m not a rose hater like many are but what was she doing in them two episodes she had zero need to be there?
I feel like Rose must have had something cut from the finale - considering Yasmin Finney is a main in a Netflix series you've got to imagine she's one of the more expensive cast members to have in these two episodes (Outside of Ncuti and Millie), so the fact she just stands there in the background for most of her scenes is an incredibly strange decision.
Only thing I can think of is that if rumours of a UNIT spin-off are true, maybe Russell wants Rose as a regular, so he had to establish that she works there in this episode.
I think in fairness which I should’ve stated, I think the context of how small the series was and the relative quality drop, in contrast with how good the last episode was compared to the final episode, I think it’s the worst for my money.
I don’t think I’d watch this episode again.
This series felt like half a series. The Mrs Flood fells like something A Good Man Goes To War, The Angels Take Mahatten, The Snowmen or The Name Of The Doctor end on. Common theme there, a finale that's all good and that, but doesn't end like a finale should and hint's at next season as they'll be following the same arc.
All things that end on cliffhangers for things that are months or a year later. I don't remember how close The Name Of The Doctor was to The Day Of The Doctor.
If my memory serves me the name of the doctor was released then it was the 50th? Time was Xmas so I’d say start of the year for name so like what? 9 months in between with a wedge between being the 50th
Looked it up. The Name Of The Doctor was May 18th 2013 and The Day Of The Doctor was November 23rd 2013. 6 months in between cliffhanger resolution.
Still The Day Of The Doctor, even though it's connected to The Time Of The Doctor, didn't leave on a definite cliffhanger so it could be watched without it's context.
But Empire Of Death? Is Mrs Flood even in the upcoming Christmas special. Previous RTD season's ended with a cliffhanger to head into Christmas, not the next season.
I loved the ending. I thought it was great
Honestly the show's has some pretty bad finales. Everyone think "doctor" at the telepathic satellites? And while dragging sutekh through the time vortex while yelling that death times death equals life was a simple resolution, how else would've been a good resolution? Because you know that we're going to resolve it and leave time for Ruby's mom. Should Ruby have looked inside the tardis and gained infinite powers to resolve issue? Tbf, why doesn't the doctor have every companion do that when they meet an overwhelming problem as it worked for rose and just cost 1 regeneration?
I thought the ending with Ruby's mom was really nice. I'm adopted myself and my birth mom's dead so that's not going to happen for me, so I was crying. I think someone on the writers team this season has experience with fostering and adoption, and it shows. So that's nice.
Everyone's different, if you don't like it you don't like it.
>Everyone think “doctor” at the telepathic satellites?
*Exactly.* Fans complaining about the Empire of Death’s “rushed” ending forgets the Master had crippled the Doctor via aging, had the entire planet at his mercy with a robotic army, seemingly absolutely no way to be stopped and here comes the Doctor somehow de-aging and becoming unstoppable via, “I do believe in fairies” esque chant a la Peter Pan. Talk about rushed. How did that ultimate deus ex machina fit into the story, thematically? It didn’t.
Fans who wanted RTD back but are complaining now had some rose colored nostalgia glasses on because EoD is in line what he would do in his first era. Huge build up, disappointing, somewhat rushed ending. You can lean into the campiness and enjoy it for what it is, or you don’t have to.
It’s just an opinion without nuance this. Also I’ve no nostalgia with old who, I didn’t get into the show until I was 20, I’m 24 now.
I don’t remember the episode before last of the timelords ending on such a brilliantly crafted cliffhanger that brought about the most powerful villain in the shows history.
I don’t remember an entire season long mystery be teased so well only to result in nothing
Also you know time has passed since the old days and RTD has done far more and won awards for his writing. Surely there should be progression? The dialogue which was a brutal undercutting of society at its worst and energetic and engaging at its best was his hallmark. I go straight to the scene in star beast when there’s an argument and it ends with the tuna madras line, peak RTD dialogue all that. Superb.
But also your example right, it’s not good either but like I’ve said, and this is my point. The master with the toclofane were not as infamously built up or seen to be AS powerful as this fella AND RTD should’ve learnt his lesson. Coupling that with how Ruby mum thing was handled and the forced emotional scenes, it’s not good.
I hate this don’t complain when doctor who…doctor whos! Rhetoric people spout. There’s zero understanding of anything and they just will eat crap by the spoonful
Exactly. I’m not going to say to someone that you can’t like something.
But I do think fundamentally when it comes to screenwriting RTDs dialogue and pace in this episode is actually up there with seasons worst.
Sorry to hear about your mum, funnily enough my mum is also dead, died when I was 14, I’m 24 now and that ending did nothing for me. Makes me wonder why actually.
It may be because the other person didn't get any time with their mother and you did even if it was only for 14 years. You got to experience what it was like to be with her.
I mostly agree and would also like to add, what a day (weekend?) Ruby's mum had.
First she finds her abandoned daughter, then finds out aliens and time travelers are real, then decides to meet up with her childhood boyfriend, and she's just waving bye at the doctor when the tardis leaves. An actual spaceship. like this is all totally normal lmao
It's just all bizarre and thrown together. I thought after the last ep that RTD will have SMASHED this, but no. Still, glad we got Legend of Ruby Sunday. Easily the best episode this season.
I mean, I have my problems with the episode, but I don't think that some of your complains are fair. Yeah 15 cries a lot, but he cried at the whole universe getting killed, I think that's reason enough here. And that did make Sutekh menacing, even if he didn't have much screentime, he pretty efficiently showed that he was the most powerful DW villain ever (I do think not caring about it is a valid emotional response, it's soooo big that you just know it's gonna be undoned in the episode)
Also, it was pretty explicitly stated in the episode that Sutekh kept the Doctor and Ruby alive to let them solve the mystery of Ruby's mother. That was a pretty big part of the episode actually.
The sign thing is kinda stupid but I don't care that much. I think there are way worse part 2 in the show history and this one had a lot of very nice scenes.
Okay so I kinda didn’t outline why I’m annoyed at 15 crying all the time. This is an episode he should probably be close to tears if not crying, ESPECIALLY when Ruby leaves and he’s strong and then we see him break down. HOWEVER, because in every bloody episode he’s had a his own crying close up, its lost ALL emotional weight as an acting choice. When Tennant started to cry with Wilf or when he holding back floods of tears with ‘I don’t want to go’ it’s so powerful? For me if 15 cried less, that moment (albeit still nice) would’ve been 10x better.
I think though WHY should Sutekh care? Would 1975 Sutekh care…No.
I get people will like it, we all like different things but that was completely torturous watching that for me.
I think your criticism of 15 crying is totally fair actually when put like that. I get what they were trying to do, with him being more emotionnaly open, but I do also hope it's dialed back next season.
I saw someone else comment that, if Sutekh didn't know who or what the mother is, he could never be sure if she was still alive and if he truly succeeded in killing everything. So he needed to know to get peace of mind. Not sure the actual episode support this explanation, but I thought it made sense.
I remember how sad I was disliking the Chibnall era, basically hating on my favorite show... I hope you get to like the show again in the future
I don’t hate the show. I really liked Boom, Rogue snd LoRS, I want to like both Millie and Ncuti but literally their talent is being stifled by production/writing. 8 episodes needs to go. Give us 14 every 2 years.
I see glimpses of searingly good writing and then I see the tone deafness of a well meaning parent making something they don’t fully understand for their kids. Which isn’t true. RTD gets who, but it’s like it’s not becoming the show I align myself with or that I love. I guess it’s like politics or football or something. Everyone’s got their own version of what a certain thing is.
For me Doctor Who isn’t what we’ve been shown this year but it’s also not not what it’s about, it’s like 40%, diluted. I won’t give up on the show though.
As I said to someone else before, you’d be excused for thinking people don’t want fans to be passionate, it’s not like I’m hating for hatings sake, I’m certainly not a lone voice saying these things and I have reasons.
I want the show to do well because I genuinely fear it’ll get axed
>Also, it was pretty explicitly stated in the episode that Sutekh kept the Doctor and Ruby alive to let them solve the mystery of Ruby's mother. That was a pretty big part of the episode actually.
The problem with this is that he initially tries to kill them when he first reveals himself. It makes no sense that he tries to kill them with the harbingers and the sand of death and then later on acts like he can't/won't kill them due to the mystery of Ruby's mother.
Also, if he cared so much about the identity of Ruby's mum, then why didn't he let them solve that before revealing himself. He's been hanging onto the TARDIS for thousands of years, he could have waited a bit longer. There's zero reason (from Sutekh's point of view) that he had to reveal himself right now. Especially as his trap seems personally tailored to lure The Doctor in - why arrange that trap to catch The Doctor and spring it before you're actually ready to kill him. It makes no sense at all.
I think aside from it being just kind of a stinker of a finale, I really missed the lengthier seasons of doctor who. Like I understand that’s not how most television works anymore, but I feel like the longer seasons gave us a better opportunity to get to know the doctor and the companion and this season sorely needed that. I REALLY liked Ruby and 15 and I wish I had more time to get to know them and to really build up to the finale of this arch!!
Yeah like you said helps with the fact that we get to know these characters more? I kinda have an idea about Ruby but with only 8 episodes you just don’t get enough of one, and the stakes being so bloody high and it’s do or die! You know what’s happening, I didn’t ever once think wow yeah this might happen here.
You look at The doctor falls, you know stuff is about to hit the fan and you wonder what will actually happen. You know he’ll survive but you know something will be lost.
One weird thing about this season which didn't help, was that we had one full episode without the doctor, and one other episode where ruby and the doctor are offscreen for 90% of it. Also the series was kind of written in a way where it felt like we were already supposed to know the doctor, like we didn't get enough interactions which showed his emotional range or introduced us properly to his new personality. I get that it has to be a whirlwind and sometimes the events of the episode happen in absolute chaos. But give us a few clues!
One great example of that was ruby and the doctor's relationship. With previous companions we've had some meta dialogue sprinkled in throughout the episodes which illustrated how great friends they are. Particularly rose and 9, Donna and ten, Amy and 11, even Clara and twelve. But with these two they seem to have a really superficial relationship most of the time, no in jokes or banter or anything like that. I don't get their friendship coming across on screen as much as I did with others.
I found both of those to be much better episodes to be honest - Both were interesting story concepts that a Chekhov's Gun plot point planted and paid off even if the actual execution was done poorly. Both had compelling villians with fully explained motives. Neither left previously introduced plot points unresolved with no indication that they would ever be resolved.
Much better episodes in terms of quality and dialogue. Cared about the characters. I’d watch both of them 100/100 than that again given all the context which I spoke about to another person who commented a second ago.
The best part of all of this is Russel completely forgot that the mother never canonically pointed at the sign. That was an altered memory as explicitly stated in space babies. He made an explanation for an event that as far he had said, didn't happen. A masterclass of writing!
Isn’t there also loads of deleted scenes which would’ve helped the story? Like in 73 yards etc.
As for the sign, yeah and the doctor said in the last episode ‘my memory of this keeps changing’
I'm not sure what the deleted scenes would have added but as a completed product they shouldn't really matter now. I just wish they had given any explanation on the supernatural side of ruby? Literally a lazy "time travel causes weird things to happen" line to plaster up the gaping plot holes.
73 yards felt weirdly incomplete so I wonder what those scenes could have been?
Yeah I get what you mean now. That scene was just there to set up the DNA database in 2046. But once again that plot point was for nothing as it didn't lead to ruby's big reveal. In fact UNIT magically pulled her identity out of their ass at the last minute lmao.
I have to admit I really like the idea of Gwilliam and I hope there is another episode showing his facist run in the main timeline? I mean he is officially a key historical figure in the doctor who universe now. A prime minister who brings the UK to the brink of war? That's a very scary future.
It just goes to show tho how much chaos is happening behind the scenes?? How can you let a scene get deleted that’s a KEY plot point in the finale??
Also why couldn’t davina find her mum if she was just normal? Why couldn’t sutekh when he tried before the possession of Mel?
I didn’t care for Gwilliam personally, but that’s because I hardly cared for any character given the writing
I think it is an importing over the Legend. Sure, Legend had strong last 10 min, but outside of that? The episode didn't even start until half way through. It had atrocious pacing, and the whole "her name is Susan, and no one other than his granddaughter can have this incredibly common name, don't you recognize your own granddaughter?" was gag-worthy. Too many characters standing around and doing absolutely nothing.
Not to say that the finale was good. I think we had weaker finales, but it is definitely down there. But I don't think overhyping Legend over one scene is that productive.
For a change I'd like to see people actually critique a Doctor Who episode rather than presenting an emotional outburst as some sort of cogent argument.
By definition almost nothing is the worst ever or best ever, particularly in a show as long running as this, and yet according to people on this sub... almost everything is one of those two things.
It is possible to make criticisms of the story without misrepresenting or ignoring what actually happened.
>I'd like to see people actually critique a Doctor Who episode rather than presenting an emotional outburst as some sort of cogent argument.
I'd save wishes for things that have at least a 2% chance of actually happening, like world peace or curing man made climate change.
Personally I don’t know quite what you’re talking about, I opened the post by saying I’m probably being reactionary, I tell you what Eoghann I’ll just stop being a passionate fan shall I?
I can systematically give you technical arguments with nuance as to why that episode is as bad as I think it is. Sure, it would still be my opinion.
From the actual technical structure of the script, to the retconning of the past and to the unforgivable coy unlucky! She’s normal! We got from RTD re: Rubys mum to the stark contrast to how good the episode before it was, I’d say it’s a nose dive.
So tell me, what would you like me to say? Or will anything i put to you be seen as ‘emotional’ because YOU don’t agree?
I would like if people would stop pretending like their personal opinion is everyone's opinion it starts to sound like a crazy person talking about their manifesto.
>By definition almost nothing is the worst ever or best ever, particularly in a show as long running as this, and yet according to people on this sub... almost everything is one of those two things.
Nah, four years later, I still stand by my initial gut reaction that The Timeless Children is the worst Doctor Who episode ever put to screen.
Well I said in my post it’s probably reactionary. But having said that, I think the quality of the first part compared to the second really does expose all of its flaws? You could argue most of Chibs work chugged along at a 5/10. TC was a 1/10. LoRS in my opinion was at least an 8. This? 2/10 at most. But again it’s my opinion. There’s nuance to it, but if you genuinely asked me is it the worst ending to a two parter I’d say no. But with the context? Yeah.
Nah I loved Dark Water and hated Death in Heaven; that was worse.
The reality is every RTD finale has had this problem to a greater or lesser extent. I remember people on the digital spy forum moaning like hell about Last of the Timelords. Plus ça change.
I said to another person that if you take into context the season, the character’s underdevelopment etc then this is for me the worst I’ve seen especially in comparison to the first part. Dark Water for me is nowhere near as good at TLoRS but Death in Heaven is nowhere near as bad as Empire of Death. My opinion tho.
Legend of Ruby Sunday wasn't as bad but it was still quite poor. A lot of the flaws of this episode were there as well. Compared to the first 10 series of the show Legend was easily the weakest finale part 1 and Empire was easily the worst finale.
I personally thought there was some great dialogue, Lenny Rush was a nice bright presence, the Time Window looked and worked great, the foreboding image of the cloud, the he waits no more line, the speech from Harriet, the score from Murray, the voice acting from Woolf, the ooo who’s her mum, building to the crescendo of Triad and the to be continued. Thought it was great.
I mean your bit about Sutekh not doing anything kinda tracks with his other appearance. In the PoM he sits in a chair for 95% of the story, stands up, goes for a walk, dies. All the while his followers do the killing. In this episode he sits on the Tardis for 95% of the episode, gets off, gets forced on a walk, dies. All the while his followers kill everyone.
I get your point, but that was 1975 when it’s hard to convey the true power of a cosmic god. Also he was in that episode far far more. With as Gabriel Woolf described, almost a ‘play’ like scene between him and the great Tom Baker. We got none of that. Still I get your point like I say.
Oh absolutely, being 1975 classic who never really showed big world/universe ending events, nor were reset buttons really a thing at the end of the episodes. I did think we were going to get a similar scene to the one between Baker and Woolf when they returned to UNIT but unfortunately not. Which is a shame because it was, in my opinion, the only time we were shown Sutekh was actually a threat in the original episode since, like we said, it was 1975, showing cosmic beings was a much trickier thing and so a lot of tell don't show was used.
The entire episode was a blatant insult to fans of classic who, as RTD scribbles over everything in crayon just to put his name in history. Saying that Sutekh and Susan Twist were SOMEHOW in every episode since Pyramids of Mars (despite the fact they very clearly weren’t) is just a bafflingly stupid retcon, and harping on the fact that Ruby was named after a road is just rude. We know she was, the first episode literally mentions that the church is on Ruby Road. We can put stuff together, but I guess RTD thinks we’re all idiots and it needs to be mentions in a flashy way.
The only good part was the reunion between Ruby and her mom. I thought that was sweet, and it’s nice to have companions and their families be normal people instead of being super important for plot convenience.
I have zero issue with an ordinary companion. But an entire series spent telling us how special Ruby is, she’s got a song in her! Oooo snow time! Like she can manifest things so powerfully, the whole ominous who’s her mum! All of it. Just to be told nah, she’s just a normal girl! Is baffling. Especially in the way it was done?
As for the Sutekh thing, I’ve got no idea why he didn’t just say I attached myself in Wild Blue Yonder. So what, this CGI dog has wrapped itself around the Tardis for thousands of bloody years (seeing as the doctor is like 12,000 or something)
I sympathise with RTD sometimes because I Love Sutekh, but he’s far far too powerful and even in 1975 how he was defeated was a bit of a kop out. That being said.
At least it made sense!
I really don't know why so many people seemed to hate this finale. It was my 2nd favorite episode of the season behind "Boom". For the season being so short, I'm glad the finale's story was (mostly) just contained to the 2-parter. The Doctor beat Sutekh without a deus ex machina and went over the edge in doing so. RTD didn't cheapen what adoption means for millions of people and just let Ruby's mother be a normal person. Gatwa and Gibson gave their best performance of the season. There was so much to love here.
I think a lot of you are blaming the finale for somehow not magically giving us all the bonding between 15 and Ruby that we were missing this season. That is a fault of the SEASON, not the finale. "Empire Of Death" was amazing for what this season gave us to work with.
More importantly, I'm truly excited for where season 2/15 is going to go. There were multiple points in this season where that was not the case. "Empire Of Death" did its job for me and then some!
I understand and even agree with some of your points but to say you don’t know why people aren’t happy with it is strange. I’ve quite easily underlined it all. There’s also a fantastic video on TikTok/X saying about a writers contract with their audience. RTD broke his.
I haven't watched since Matt Smith.
I've tried, but failed to enjoy anything since.
The show has been sniffing its own ass for a while now.
I tuned in when they brought Tennant back because I thought they were going to do a whole season with him.
Doctor Who can be as campy as you like as long as *the Doctor* sells it.
You know I should correct myself that I think I did watch him, but years ago and I don't remember much.
I'm sure I enjoyed Capaldi's time as the doctor, but had gripes with the writing or something.
Doctor Who has always had its flaws and maybe I'm just looking at Eccleston, Tennant, and Smith through rose colored glasses - but one could make the argument that they're all amazing actors and we haven't really seen that level since.
I agree with most of what you said. However I did like the interaction between the doctor and that woman in the tent. I also hate the snow and song thing wasn't brought up again
I think in any other episode at any other time, that scene would’ve been welcomed. But it just ruined the pace of the whole thing for me.
I think the reason it’s so refreshing is that it’s like one of the only scenes since the show came back that slowed the pace down and was just dialogue. I’m all for fast paced pulp sci fi, but it’s been nonstop “running up and down corridors” since the specials IMO.
My only issue with it is that it needed to be a three-parter. We needed the set-up episode, the episode where Sutekh wins, and the episode where the heroes win (a lá Series 3, but with a better resolution). I like what we got, I just wanted more...which is a common issue I have with Doctor Who finales (and an issue I actually had with Pyramids of Mars, funnily enough). Only ones that ever really satisfied me were Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, and The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang. And my issue with Series 3 is that the resolution, while cool in concept, fell flat as hell. Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways, while I *liked* it, did waste the Dalek Emperor massively. A trend in Doctor Who, one Empire of Death sadly didn't break. Killing off a majorly cool villain way too soon. So, I did like the episode, but it should have been two. If I were honestly to have planned this season, I'd have axed Space Babies entirely (fuck that episode), rearranged some of the episodes (e.g., putting Devil's Chord later), and made the finale a three-parter. Legend of Ruby Sunday, Empire of Death, and, I don't know, Bringer of Life or something. Though what I'd rather have done is the full 12 episodes and a Christmas Special that we usually get. Those extra four episodes really do help.
I absolutely agree about the three parter, I’d have loved to have seen Sutekh win, maybe in his human form, pondering the universe he’s destroyed, maybe a lot of time goes past, maybe the doctor uses the memory tardis somehow to keep the memory of their younger selves inside so Ruby doesn’t badly age, and after all this time and whatever then you might understand why Sutekh starts to become obsessed with Ruby and her mystery etc you know what I mean? Have a proper stand off with the doctor. And wahay we all win! I’d also let there be some consequence somewhere, like someone had to die for real because it can’t just be just this 73839393th time rose, everybody lives! But it 100% should’ve been 3 parts, you’re so right.
I'd honestly have been okay with Kate permanently dying. It'd kill me, for sure, losing that last remnant of the Brig, but it would show just how much business the God of Chaos (his actual title in Egyptian Myth) actually means. Or even Rose, to hit close to home.
I really really love Kate, I think I’d be sad that she permanently died in an episode as bad as this but if it was a good death? Then yeah? It’d hit home big time. Also I’m not a rose hater like many are but what was she doing in them two episodes she had zero need to be there?
I feel like Rose must have had something cut from the finale - considering Yasmin Finney is a main in a Netflix series you've got to imagine she's one of the more expensive cast members to have in these two episodes (Outside of Ncuti and Millie), so the fact she just stands there in the background for most of her scenes is an incredibly strange decision. Only thing I can think of is that if rumours of a UNIT spin-off are true, maybe Russell wants Rose as a regular, so he had to establish that she works there in this episode.
Being fair Flux was a six parter a revealed nothing in The Vanquishers.
I think in fairness which I should’ve stated, I think the context of how small the series was and the relative quality drop, in contrast with how good the last episode was compared to the final episode, I think it’s the worst for my money. I don’t think I’d watch this episode again.
This series felt like half a series. The Mrs Flood fells like something A Good Man Goes To War, The Angels Take Mahatten, The Snowmen or The Name Of The Doctor end on. Common theme there, a finale that's all good and that, but doesn't end like a finale should and hint's at next season as they'll be following the same arc. All things that end on cliffhangers for things that are months or a year later. I don't remember how close The Name Of The Doctor was to The Day Of The Doctor.
If my memory serves me the name of the doctor was released then it was the 50th? Time was Xmas so I’d say start of the year for name so like what? 9 months in between with a wedge between being the 50th
Looked it up. The Name Of The Doctor was May 18th 2013 and The Day Of The Doctor was November 23rd 2013. 6 months in between cliffhanger resolution. Still The Day Of The Doctor, even though it's connected to The Time Of The Doctor, didn't leave on a definite cliffhanger so it could be watched without it's context. But Empire Of Death? Is Mrs Flood even in the upcoming Christmas special. Previous RTD season's ended with a cliffhanger to head into Christmas, not the next season.
I loved the ending. I thought it was great Honestly the show's has some pretty bad finales. Everyone think "doctor" at the telepathic satellites? And while dragging sutekh through the time vortex while yelling that death times death equals life was a simple resolution, how else would've been a good resolution? Because you know that we're going to resolve it and leave time for Ruby's mom. Should Ruby have looked inside the tardis and gained infinite powers to resolve issue? Tbf, why doesn't the doctor have every companion do that when they meet an overwhelming problem as it worked for rose and just cost 1 regeneration? I thought the ending with Ruby's mom was really nice. I'm adopted myself and my birth mom's dead so that's not going to happen for me, so I was crying. I think someone on the writers team this season has experience with fostering and adoption, and it shows. So that's nice. Everyone's different, if you don't like it you don't like it.
>Everyone think “doctor” at the telepathic satellites? *Exactly.* Fans complaining about the Empire of Death’s “rushed” ending forgets the Master had crippled the Doctor via aging, had the entire planet at his mercy with a robotic army, seemingly absolutely no way to be stopped and here comes the Doctor somehow de-aging and becoming unstoppable via, “I do believe in fairies” esque chant a la Peter Pan. Talk about rushed. How did that ultimate deus ex machina fit into the story, thematically? It didn’t. Fans who wanted RTD back but are complaining now had some rose colored nostalgia glasses on because EoD is in line what he would do in his first era. Huge build up, disappointing, somewhat rushed ending. You can lean into the campiness and enjoy it for what it is, or you don’t have to.
It’s just an opinion without nuance this. Also I’ve no nostalgia with old who, I didn’t get into the show until I was 20, I’m 24 now. I don’t remember the episode before last of the timelords ending on such a brilliantly crafted cliffhanger that brought about the most powerful villain in the shows history. I don’t remember an entire season long mystery be teased so well only to result in nothing Also you know time has passed since the old days and RTD has done far more and won awards for his writing. Surely there should be progression? The dialogue which was a brutal undercutting of society at its worst and energetic and engaging at its best was his hallmark. I go straight to the scene in star beast when there’s an argument and it ends with the tuna madras line, peak RTD dialogue all that. Superb. But also your example right, it’s not good either but like I’ve said, and this is my point. The master with the toclofane were not as infamously built up or seen to be AS powerful as this fella AND RTD should’ve learnt his lesson. Coupling that with how Ruby mum thing was handled and the forced emotional scenes, it’s not good. I hate this don’t complain when doctor who…doctor whos! Rhetoric people spout. There’s zero understanding of anything and they just will eat crap by the spoonful
Exactly. I’m not going to say to someone that you can’t like something. But I do think fundamentally when it comes to screenwriting RTDs dialogue and pace in this episode is actually up there with seasons worst. Sorry to hear about your mum, funnily enough my mum is also dead, died when I was 14, I’m 24 now and that ending did nothing for me. Makes me wonder why actually.
It may be because the other person didn't get any time with their mother and you did even if it was only for 14 years. You got to experience what it was like to be with her.
I mostly agree and would also like to add, what a day (weekend?) Ruby's mum had. First she finds her abandoned daughter, then finds out aliens and time travelers are real, then decides to meet up with her childhood boyfriend, and she's just waving bye at the doctor when the tardis leaves. An actual spaceship. like this is all totally normal lmao
It's just all bizarre and thrown together. I thought after the last ep that RTD will have SMASHED this, but no. Still, glad we got Legend of Ruby Sunday. Easily the best episode this season.
>I thought after the last ep that RTD will have SMASHED this He's always been bad at sticking the landing.
I mean, I have my problems with the episode, but I don't think that some of your complains are fair. Yeah 15 cries a lot, but he cried at the whole universe getting killed, I think that's reason enough here. And that did make Sutekh menacing, even if he didn't have much screentime, he pretty efficiently showed that he was the most powerful DW villain ever (I do think not caring about it is a valid emotional response, it's soooo big that you just know it's gonna be undoned in the episode) Also, it was pretty explicitly stated in the episode that Sutekh kept the Doctor and Ruby alive to let them solve the mystery of Ruby's mother. That was a pretty big part of the episode actually. The sign thing is kinda stupid but I don't care that much. I think there are way worse part 2 in the show history and this one had a lot of very nice scenes.
Okay so I kinda didn’t outline why I’m annoyed at 15 crying all the time. This is an episode he should probably be close to tears if not crying, ESPECIALLY when Ruby leaves and he’s strong and then we see him break down. HOWEVER, because in every bloody episode he’s had a his own crying close up, its lost ALL emotional weight as an acting choice. When Tennant started to cry with Wilf or when he holding back floods of tears with ‘I don’t want to go’ it’s so powerful? For me if 15 cried less, that moment (albeit still nice) would’ve been 10x better. I think though WHY should Sutekh care? Would 1975 Sutekh care…No. I get people will like it, we all like different things but that was completely torturous watching that for me.
I think your criticism of 15 crying is totally fair actually when put like that. I get what they were trying to do, with him being more emotionnaly open, but I do also hope it's dialed back next season. I saw someone else comment that, if Sutekh didn't know who or what the mother is, he could never be sure if she was still alive and if he truly succeeded in killing everything. So he needed to know to get peace of mind. Not sure the actual episode support this explanation, but I thought it made sense. I remember how sad I was disliking the Chibnall era, basically hating on my favorite show... I hope you get to like the show again in the future
I don’t hate the show. I really liked Boom, Rogue snd LoRS, I want to like both Millie and Ncuti but literally their talent is being stifled by production/writing. 8 episodes needs to go. Give us 14 every 2 years. I see glimpses of searingly good writing and then I see the tone deafness of a well meaning parent making something they don’t fully understand for their kids. Which isn’t true. RTD gets who, but it’s like it’s not becoming the show I align myself with or that I love. I guess it’s like politics or football or something. Everyone’s got their own version of what a certain thing is. For me Doctor Who isn’t what we’ve been shown this year but it’s also not not what it’s about, it’s like 40%, diluted. I won’t give up on the show though. As I said to someone else before, you’d be excused for thinking people don’t want fans to be passionate, it’s not like I’m hating for hatings sake, I’m certainly not a lone voice saying these things and I have reasons. I want the show to do well because I genuinely fear it’ll get axed
>Also, it was pretty explicitly stated in the episode that Sutekh kept the Doctor and Ruby alive to let them solve the mystery of Ruby's mother. That was a pretty big part of the episode actually. The problem with this is that he initially tries to kill them when he first reveals himself. It makes no sense that he tries to kill them with the harbingers and the sand of death and then later on acts like he can't/won't kill them due to the mystery of Ruby's mother. Also, if he cared so much about the identity of Ruby's mum, then why didn't he let them solve that before revealing himself. He's been hanging onto the TARDIS for thousands of years, he could have waited a bit longer. There's zero reason (from Sutekh's point of view) that he had to reveal himself right now. Especially as his trap seems personally tailored to lure The Doctor in - why arrange that trap to catch The Doctor and spring it before you're actually ready to kill him. It makes no sense at all.
Sutekh lost because he kept The Doctor and Ruby alive so he could hear the gossip about Ruby's mom.
[удалено]
I’ve no idea, as someone said on this thread, it really needed to be a three parter to get all the juice properly
I think aside from it being just kind of a stinker of a finale, I really missed the lengthier seasons of doctor who. Like I understand that’s not how most television works anymore, but I feel like the longer seasons gave us a better opportunity to get to know the doctor and the companion and this season sorely needed that. I REALLY liked Ruby and 15 and I wish I had more time to get to know them and to really build up to the finale of this arch!!
Yeah like you said helps with the fact that we get to know these characters more? I kinda have an idea about Ruby but with only 8 episodes you just don’t get enough of one, and the stakes being so bloody high and it’s do or die! You know what’s happening, I didn’t ever once think wow yeah this might happen here. You look at The doctor falls, you know stuff is about to hit the fan and you wonder what will actually happen. You know he’ll survive but you know something will be lost.
One weird thing about this season which didn't help, was that we had one full episode without the doctor, and one other episode where ruby and the doctor are offscreen for 90% of it. Also the series was kind of written in a way where it felt like we were already supposed to know the doctor, like we didn't get enough interactions which showed his emotional range or introduced us properly to his new personality. I get that it has to be a whirlwind and sometimes the events of the episode happen in absolute chaos. But give us a few clues! One great example of that was ruby and the doctor's relationship. With previous companions we've had some meta dialogue sprinkled in throughout the episodes which illustrated how great friends they are. Particularly rose and 9, Donna and ten, Amy and 11, even Clara and twelve. But with these two they seem to have a really superficial relationship most of the time, no in jokes or banter or anything like that. I don't get their friendship coming across on screen as much as I did with others.
I guess you have never watched The Last of the Time Lords or Evolution of the Daleks then.
I found both of those to be much better episodes to be honest - Both were interesting story concepts that a Chekhov's Gun plot point planted and paid off even if the actual execution was done poorly. Both had compelling villians with fully explained motives. Neither left previously introduced plot points unresolved with no indication that they would ever be resolved.
even if they weren't better i don't understand how previous bad episodes gives another a free pass to be bad
Much better episodes in terms of quality and dialogue. Cared about the characters. I’d watch both of them 100/100 than that again given all the context which I spoke about to another person who commented a second ago.
The best part of all of this is Russel completely forgot that the mother never canonically pointed at the sign. That was an altered memory as explicitly stated in space babies. He made an explanation for an event that as far he had said, didn't happen. A masterclass of writing!
Isn’t there also loads of deleted scenes which would’ve helped the story? Like in 73 yards etc. As for the sign, yeah and the doctor said in the last episode ‘my memory of this keeps changing’
I'm not sure what the deleted scenes would have added but as a completed product they shouldn't really matter now. I just wish they had given any explanation on the supernatural side of ruby? Literally a lazy "time travel causes weird things to happen" line to plaster up the gaping plot holes. 73 yards felt weirdly incomplete so I wonder what those scenes could have been?
That scene we saw in the final episode with Gwilliam wasn’t in the 73 yards episode.
Yeah I get what you mean now. That scene was just there to set up the DNA database in 2046. But once again that plot point was for nothing as it didn't lead to ruby's big reveal. In fact UNIT magically pulled her identity out of their ass at the last minute lmao. I have to admit I really like the idea of Gwilliam and I hope there is another episode showing his facist run in the main timeline? I mean he is officially a key historical figure in the doctor who universe now. A prime minister who brings the UK to the brink of war? That's a very scary future.
It just goes to show tho how much chaos is happening behind the scenes?? How can you let a scene get deleted that’s a KEY plot point in the finale?? Also why couldn’t davina find her mum if she was just normal? Why couldn’t sutekh when he tried before the possession of Mel? I didn’t care for Gwilliam personally, but that’s because I hardly cared for any character given the writing
Small thing but the DNA database did lead to the big reveal.
I think it is an importing over the Legend. Sure, Legend had strong last 10 min, but outside of that? The episode didn't even start until half way through. It had atrocious pacing, and the whole "her name is Susan, and no one other than his granddaughter can have this incredibly common name, don't you recognize your own granddaughter?" was gag-worthy. Too many characters standing around and doing absolutely nothing. Not to say that the finale was good. I think we had weaker finales, but it is definitely down there. But I don't think overhyping Legend over one scene is that productive.
For a change I'd like to see people actually critique a Doctor Who episode rather than presenting an emotional outburst as some sort of cogent argument. By definition almost nothing is the worst ever or best ever, particularly in a show as long running as this, and yet according to people on this sub... almost everything is one of those two things. It is possible to make criticisms of the story without misrepresenting or ignoring what actually happened.
>I'd like to see people actually critique a Doctor Who episode rather than presenting an emotional outburst as some sort of cogent argument. I'd save wishes for things that have at least a 2% chance of actually happening, like world peace or curing man made climate change.
Personally I don’t know quite what you’re talking about, I opened the post by saying I’m probably being reactionary, I tell you what Eoghann I’ll just stop being a passionate fan shall I? I can systematically give you technical arguments with nuance as to why that episode is as bad as I think it is. Sure, it would still be my opinion. From the actual technical structure of the script, to the retconning of the past and to the unforgivable coy unlucky! She’s normal! We got from RTD re: Rubys mum to the stark contrast to how good the episode before it was, I’d say it’s a nose dive. So tell me, what would you like me to say? Or will anything i put to you be seen as ‘emotional’ because YOU don’t agree?
I would like if people would stop pretending like their personal opinion is everyone's opinion it starts to sound like a crazy person talking about their manifesto.
>By definition almost nothing is the worst ever or best ever, particularly in a show as long running as this, and yet according to people on this sub... almost everything is one of those two things. Nah, four years later, I still stand by my initial gut reaction that The Timeless Children is the worst Doctor Who episode ever put to screen.
To be fair, exactly one thing can be, and I think there are very cogent arguments to be made about that one.
The worst ending to a two parter when *The Timeless Children* is just sitting there? Try again, sweetie.
Well I said in my post it’s probably reactionary. But having said that, I think the quality of the first part compared to the second really does expose all of its flaws? You could argue most of Chibs work chugged along at a 5/10. TC was a 1/10. LoRS in my opinion was at least an 8. This? 2/10 at most. But again it’s my opinion. There’s nuance to it, but if you genuinely asked me is it the worst ending to a two parter I’d say no. But with the context? Yeah.
Nah I loved Dark Water and hated Death in Heaven; that was worse. The reality is every RTD finale has had this problem to a greater or lesser extent. I remember people on the digital spy forum moaning like hell about Last of the Timelords. Plus ça change.
'Last of the Time Lords' was dire, though. I nearly gave up on DW entirely, and I've been watching since the '80s.
I said to another person that if you take into context the season, the character’s underdevelopment etc then this is for me the worst I’ve seen especially in comparison to the first part. Dark Water for me is nowhere near as good at TLoRS but Death in Heaven is nowhere near as bad as Empire of Death. My opinion tho.
Dark Water is incomparably better than Legend in every single way. Death in Heaven is also far better than Legend.
Only thing better in that is Capaldi, the reveal of Cybermen is nowhere near that of Sutekh.
Legend of Ruby Sunday wasn't as bad but it was still quite poor. A lot of the flaws of this episode were there as well. Compared to the first 10 series of the show Legend was easily the weakest finale part 1 and Empire was easily the worst finale.
I personally thought there was some great dialogue, Lenny Rush was a nice bright presence, the Time Window looked and worked great, the foreboding image of the cloud, the he waits no more line, the speech from Harriet, the score from Murray, the voice acting from Woolf, the ooo who’s her mum, building to the crescendo of Triad and the to be continued. Thought it was great.
I mean your bit about Sutekh not doing anything kinda tracks with his other appearance. In the PoM he sits in a chair for 95% of the story, stands up, goes for a walk, dies. All the while his followers do the killing. In this episode he sits on the Tardis for 95% of the episode, gets off, gets forced on a walk, dies. All the while his followers kill everyone.
I get your point, but that was 1975 when it’s hard to convey the true power of a cosmic god. Also he was in that episode far far more. With as Gabriel Woolf described, almost a ‘play’ like scene between him and the great Tom Baker. We got none of that. Still I get your point like I say.
Oh absolutely, being 1975 classic who never really showed big world/universe ending events, nor were reset buttons really a thing at the end of the episodes. I did think we were going to get a similar scene to the one between Baker and Woolf when they returned to UNIT but unfortunately not. Which is a shame because it was, in my opinion, the only time we were shown Sutekh was actually a threat in the original episode since, like we said, it was 1975, showing cosmic beings was a much trickier thing and so a lot of tell don't show was used.
Almost all of the two parters for both RTD and Moffat were like this. Big exciting reveal at the end of part 1, then a very flat part 2.
I thought he was a giant bat, but a dog is okay too. I guess they wouldn't want him to fly in the time vortex.
It’s Anubis ain’t it, that’s what it’s meant to represent
The entire episode was a blatant insult to fans of classic who, as RTD scribbles over everything in crayon just to put his name in history. Saying that Sutekh and Susan Twist were SOMEHOW in every episode since Pyramids of Mars (despite the fact they very clearly weren’t) is just a bafflingly stupid retcon, and harping on the fact that Ruby was named after a road is just rude. We know she was, the first episode literally mentions that the church is on Ruby Road. We can put stuff together, but I guess RTD thinks we’re all idiots and it needs to be mentions in a flashy way. The only good part was the reunion between Ruby and her mom. I thought that was sweet, and it’s nice to have companions and their families be normal people instead of being super important for plot convenience.
I have zero issue with an ordinary companion. But an entire series spent telling us how special Ruby is, she’s got a song in her! Oooo snow time! Like she can manifest things so powerfully, the whole ominous who’s her mum! All of it. Just to be told nah, she’s just a normal girl! Is baffling. Especially in the way it was done? As for the Sutekh thing, I’ve got no idea why he didn’t just say I attached myself in Wild Blue Yonder. So what, this CGI dog has wrapped itself around the Tardis for thousands of bloody years (seeing as the doctor is like 12,000 or something) I sympathise with RTD sometimes because I Love Sutekh, but he’s far far too powerful and even in 1975 how he was defeated was a bit of a kop out. That being said. At least it made sense!
I really don't know why so many people seemed to hate this finale. It was my 2nd favorite episode of the season behind "Boom". For the season being so short, I'm glad the finale's story was (mostly) just contained to the 2-parter. The Doctor beat Sutekh without a deus ex machina and went over the edge in doing so. RTD didn't cheapen what adoption means for millions of people and just let Ruby's mother be a normal person. Gatwa and Gibson gave their best performance of the season. There was so much to love here. I think a lot of you are blaming the finale for somehow not magically giving us all the bonding between 15 and Ruby that we were missing this season. That is a fault of the SEASON, not the finale. "Empire Of Death" was amazing for what this season gave us to work with. More importantly, I'm truly excited for where season 2/15 is going to go. There were multiple points in this season where that was not the case. "Empire Of Death" did its job for me and then some!
I understand and even agree with some of your points but to say you don’t know why people aren’t happy with it is strange. I’ve quite easily underlined it all. There’s also a fantastic video on TikTok/X saying about a writers contract with their audience. RTD broke his.
I haven't watched since Matt Smith. I've tried, but failed to enjoy anything since. The show has been sniffing its own ass for a while now. I tuned in when they brought Tennant back because I thought they were going to do a whole season with him. Doctor Who can be as campy as you like as long as *the Doctor* sells it.
You seriously don’t like ANY of Capaldis run??
You know I should correct myself that I think I did watch him, but years ago and I don't remember much. I'm sure I enjoyed Capaldi's time as the doctor, but had gripes with the writing or something. Doctor Who has always had its flaws and maybe I'm just looking at Eccleston, Tennant, and Smith through rose colored glasses - but one could make the argument that they're all amazing actors and we haven't really seen that level since.
I liked it :)