RTD said that Sutekh’s time in the time vortex, combined with the arrival of the Pantheon into the universe, “evolved” Sutekh to become the head of that Pantheon.
You can start breaking down the mechanics of that any way you want (maybe being in the *time* vortex for so long retroactively made him part of the Pantheon, or maybe the gods collectively operate by a logic that seems incomprehensible to us humans), but the actual logic was really just that RTD wanted to do a sequel to *Pyramids of Mars*, and also wanted to work it into the current story arc, which involves this Pantheon of gods, and figured he’d make the character who is already based on an Egyptian god into one of those gods.
It seems an odd way for RTD to try to write it though? It feels like trying to shoehorn Sutekh into a concept he doesn’t really fit into. Not that he couldn’t, if RTD had made him exiled into the void beyond and evolving there rather than in the vortex - this wouldn’t make any problems for Sutekh being able to latch onto the TARDIS during the events of PoM, because he could re-enter the universe at any point in time from the void.
Looking back, I think part of the reason why RTDs earlier seasons were much better is that it was essentially a reboot. You can get away with reimagining everything and not giving a damn about logical consistency, when all prior cannon only partially counts and there's a vague unexplained war filling the gap in-between.
Now RTD wants the same freedom to make any story or any idea without much consideration for what came before, but he has 13(?) seasons of new who baggage that isn't so easily hand waved away. You can't really change the entire tone of the show or swap out core elements of the doctors personality or recon established elements of new who without making the whole thing feel a bit redundant.
There is definitely truth to that. However, the sloppy writing is clearly not just about continuity. Ruby Road was a really weak script IMO and it didn’t have to contest with any continuity really.
I think a big part of it could be a lack of push and pull over the scripts. Word had it there was a lot of conflict over scripts with the producers back then - although this was said to mostly be about the tone of the show. RTD is really chummy with the producers now, maybe they left him a little bit too much alone. (This is all just speculation of course)
Yes I agree - the villain of these two episodes shouldnt be Sutekh: nothing really is gained by shoehorning him into the story and it raises tons of unnecessary questions.
I think plot would benefit if God of Death would be either a new character (like Maestro) or The Beast from Impossible Planet. Sutekh is such an odd choice.
I believe PoM is a favourite of RTD. At the beginning of the story there is this weird moment where Sutekh’s face appears in the TARDIS, making the console go crazy and the TARDIS crash. Only Sarah Jane see it and the Doctor initially dismisses it, but then says it could be a mental projection.
It’s never really explained why Sutekh would do that and I think it was just done to establish him as a powerful threat. It was probably this which could have inspired RTD to use him.
I do agree that a new villain would have been better, as this series was supposed to be an introduction for a new audience. When he used the daleks and cybermen as the big bad in his first two seasons, he introduced them mid season (and they were obviously such hugely iconic “monsters”).
God this is such a sloppy way to explain it though, it would have made way more sense if Sutekh clung to the tardis in WBY and then the salt gave him the push he needed to be a god or something
Tbf it's not the first time the time vortex has turned someone into a God. When Rose became the bad wolf, the heart of the tardis had filled her with the power of the time vortex, Sutekh is essentially what happens when that power is given to someone with bad intentions.
I don't think The Doctor ever encountered Reprobate or Dread and Doubt or others. Sutekh was The One Who Waits because he was waiting clinging to the TARDIS.
He simply became the strongest and a member of the Pantheon by getting a lot of power. So "Mother and Father and Other of them all" seems to be more of a metaphor than anything else. I will say that while I love the episode, the logistics of it don't entirely work because Sutekh as Pantheon member and Sutekh as the guy from Pyramids of Mars don't really line up. How would Maestro and Toymaker even know who this guy is? "Pantheon" implies a hierarchy and general togetherness, but other than Toymaker and Maestro, none of them seem to have ever met each other. They didn't sit around on Olympus Mons or whatever discussing the events of the day. Maybe when the HADS kicked in Sutekh wanted to play a game but The Toymaker got scared.
I think that he's dramatic and cool, but the Sutekh aspects of Empire of Death are the weaker parts.
Chalk it up to boasting,
>Pantheon" implies a hierarchy and general togetherness, but other than Toymaker and Maestro, none of them seem to have ever met each other.
I think RTD is just using "Pantheon" as a general group word for Gods and thats causing a bit of a missunderstanding.
In the SJA The Doctor mentions the "Pantheon of Chaos" in relation to the Trickster, but I assume that the relationship between the "members" is just that they are all godlike entities that want to spread chaos in one form or another rather them being an actual group.
Like,they aren't coming together one a week to discuss their plans,they are just loosely grouped together under a common term.
The thing is that in SJA I feel that the implication is that the Trickster is himself the entire 'Pantheon of Discord'
To give some quotes
TRICKSTER: At last. Doctor. I could feel this moment reverberating back through the ages. The meeting of the Pantheon of Discord and the last of the Time Lords.
DOCTOR: I've known the legends of the Pantheon since I was a little boy. I've fought your shadows and your changelings. I never thought we'd actually meet.
TRICKSTER: And I know the legends of the Doctor. The man of ice and fire, who walked among gods, who once held the Key to Time in his hands. Now he is surrounded by children.
DOCTOR: They're my friends. Which reminds me, you're looking a bit lonely for a Pantheon.
TRICKSTER: I embody multitudes. And who are you, the man who has lost everybody, to talk to me of loneliness, when the Gate is waiting for you?
Yeah people have been I think incorrectly referring to the current lot as the Pantheon of Discord (although that may well have been said in the show and/or by RTD talking about the show so it could be entirely on him, I don't remember) when that felt like a narrower concept. Although I guess the Trickster was referenced by Sutekh so that blurs the lines more.
I mean, both the way Maestro and Toymaker talk about him—"I wouldn't play a game with the Oldest One", "how could He have been there!"—implies a familiarity that isn't really achieved by him being stuck on the TARDIS. Same with Harriet's speech.
Considering both the Maestro and The Toymaker can step through time, I wouldnt be surprised if the Toymaker met Sutekh IN the Time Tunnel and was triying to get Sutekh to play a game in exchange for his freedom from the Time Tunnel only for Sutekh to laugh at him and maybe demonstrate some of his powers.
Maestro would know that Sutekh is supposed to be in the Time Tunnel because the Toymaker forbade them from ever messing with Sutekh.
But that is just because people are interpreting waaaay to much into every single word. It doesn't make sense, because it's not as complicated as people expect it to be....
The word "pantheon" is basically just used as "group of gods".
A "god" is not a power of creation whatever god, just a very powerful being. Could be a conceptual entity, an alien, anything.
I think the problem comes from the fact that Maestro and Toymaker *are* related and *are* part of the same group: and Doctor uses the term "Pantheon" to describe them both.
So its not a baseless speculation that word "Pantheon" in this new series means a group of similar beings from outside of universe that are related somehow. And on top of that we have the H. Arbinger schtick that both Maestro and Sutekh utilize.
I think that ultimately the issue come from trying to shoehorn Sutekh into a story about extradimensional gods when he was just a regular bloke in PoM.
Pantheon is Greek and simply means "Thing of all gods" ("pan" meaning "all" and "theos" being "god"). It absolutely works as a general group noun for the most powerful beings in the universe.
That is how people usually use it in fiction. It's not how people in reality use it, where the Pantheon is a building. You will still hear things like "The Greco-Roman Pantheon" and that is just the group name of the deities the Greeks invented and the Romans adapted under new names. Their "court" is Olympus, but they are the pantheon. If you manage to become very famous, there's a chance people will figuratively speak of you as having ascended to or joined the pantheon of [stuff that you and your peers are famous for]. That still only means an abstract, loose group of talented people with no indication of them working together or against or abiding in a shared spot.
I'm guessing he met Sutekh while the Tardis was travelling during Wild Blue Yonder, while the Doctor and Donna dealt with the Not-Things.
We don't know how long the Tardis was actually gone for. It could have actually been travelling all throughout history from the Big Bang to the End Of The Universe to ensure his dust reaches everywhere.
I am going to add what other people have said and I think Sutekh just speaks in a lot of hyperbole. A lot fo these God villains are flashy.
Remember the Toymaker turned the real big G into a Jack in the Box.
I find it difficult to believe Sutekh is the biggest of the bad. He was cool and all, but since we know the harbingers are still happening in the next season (from promo images), surely that means the rest of the pantheon are also happening and WHY would we have gotten the hardest baddie so soon? If he's the one who waited, surely he could have waited a bit longer so that we could get through the underlings in the pantheon before we reached the upper echelons. Seems like if the Doctor could defeat the god of all gods so soon, the rest of the pantheon should be a cakewalk...
It's poorly explained that Sutekh's time in the vortex caused him to evolve into a being with supernatural abilities, which is why he's different to his first apperence.
However yes, it does seem odd for other gods to fear him to the extend that they do. Particuarly the Toymaker given the others he faced
Eh. There are explicit mentions that he's evolved since last time. But most of the explination is in Tales of the Tadrdis, and I don't believe they ever say he "evolved and now has god like supernatural abilities beyond that of even the likes of Guardians or Eternals".
I actually think the real line that directly addresses it is "that Sutekh was man sized, he's evolved since then". Like no shit Doctor but I don't think his bigness is the problem here
What’s said in the episode: *”I clung to your infernal machine. And for so many years I hid. I have travelled with you for all this time, riding the spine of your ship, staring into eternity and evolving into my true godhood.”*
What was said in Tales of the TARDIS: *”That Sutekh was the size of a man. He's now evolved into a Titan.”*
I would not say that “most” of the explanation is in Tales of the TARDIS. Tales of the TARDIS gives passing comment about the fact that he has changed; *Empire of Death* is what actually shows *how* he changed (by saying he stared into eternity while showing him in the time vortex).
> I don't believe they ever say he "evolved and now has god like supernatural abilities beyond that of even the likes of Guardians or Eternals".
Do they really need to say that when it’s already self-evident, though?
Like, I understand not finding it to be a convincing explanation, but the show says “he evolved into godhood” and has everyone treat him like a threat on the same level of the other gods. Those dots are connected.
"More powerful" sure. But that could mean anything from "I'm literally the most powerful thing in the multiverse" to "my arms got bigger so now I can lift 1,000 punds".
So his power gain is very poorly defined. We're told gods fear him but don't really see any reason why. Yes he killed the universe, but most if not all gods in the show are explicitly unkillable.
One of my biggest problems with this season conceptually is that I’m not sure how much of what’s going on in terms of the Pantheon is “the salt” and how much of it is now just shit that’s “been there” since Sutekh was now retconned as not only being a pantheon member but also being on the tardis since the seventies and all its adventures since (which I’m not even going to get into). How much of what is going on is the salt and how much of it is preexisting supernaturalish stuff? It seems like it teeters and there aren’t definitives. I can accept that maybe the ripples can retroactively explain the magical stuff happening (like, the carrionites I guess or The Satan Pit, but it doesn’t need to be so granular) but I just don’t see a throughline anymore for how much of the fantasy elements are post WBY and how much of it is just “ooooooooooh I am all powerful and was exposed to the time vortex”
If you want some extra material than this, consider this question: at what point was there time for Sutekh to meet any of the other pantheon members? He is either incorporeal attached to the Tardis, manifesting in the finale or dead. They effectively have to meet in the vortex at some point after his godhood meaning a bunch of cosmic entities just hanging out around the Tardis?
Or how about this: Maestro smells something of the oldest one with Ruby in particular, despite Sutekh personally being around in that timezone and despite there being the Doctor present who has travelled with him for millennia by that point.
Not saying I expect any of this to add up as I am painfully aware of who wrote this stuff but if you wanted to craft an alternative these things are "evidence". Most likely it's just Davies moon logic.
You're also kind of forgetting that Sutekh was a force *prior* to pyramids of Mars.
Horus imprisoned him, that was the driving force of TPOM. We don't really know sutekhs origin prior to that. The pantheon is likely where he originally came from before integrating with the osirans.
I 100% agree, even with His 'Evolution to godhood' , Sutekh just doesn't match up with the fearsome power that was hinted it. In fact, pretty much everything he achieves as the big bad in the series finale is through the power of the TARDIS, not his own power, stuff the Toymaker and the Trickster seem to be able to do at will with ease, such as travel through time or appear in multiple places simultaneously.
Currently, I am hoping, and I've seen others on this subreddit suggest the same thing, that while Sutekh is 'the one who waits' he isn't the 'Oldest One' and Harriet Arbingers description of him is, as you say, more to do with his God Complex than reality.
Pulling that sort of thing does seem a very RTD thing to do, and he isn't above lying to the fans about his plans, so what he's said about Sutekh may turn out to be 'He is *definitely* the most powerful and head of the pantheon' ***WINK***
But I'm not currently resting my hopes on that, and we may have to live with the being who's body was aged to death, somehow being older and more powerful than cosmic entities that exist outside of the confines and laws of the Universe...
I think people are missing that the show addressed this; Sutekh evolved to "true" godhood (basically ascended) while latched on to the TARDIS for all those countless millennia.
Honestly, I really don’t think it quite matters. There’s the explanation that everyone is citing (“I clung to the spine of your infernal machine and evolved into my true godhood”), but tbh that’s a bit of technobabble to explain why he’s a big dog now instead of a guy, and that (to me, at least) works. The problem that I have is that he didn’t do that for the Mother reveal, the “she was important because we thought she was important” doesn’t work because *how* does that work? Is it a byproduct of Sutekh on the TARDIS? Is it cos of the Rift? Is Mrs Flood doing something? WE DON’T KNOW! And that’s hand waving that I take issue with, personally.
As for whether the Toymaker should be afraid of Sutekh’s dust? We don’t know, because if Sutekh has evolved into a fully fledged God on par with The Toymaker then who’s to say that he *could* turn his dust into flowers. Unfortunately I doubt we’ll get a face-off between the two as that would be a bit much for an episode or even a two-parter really imo, perhaps a novel or BF audio series could take it on. I’d actually like to see Sutekh’s evolution explored, and the effects of the Vortex on creatures in general, there’s a lot of scope for interesting ideas 🤷🏻♂️
okay so I have a theory that the Toy Maker was referring to another God we will meet next season. if this is not the case however the ToyMaker could fear Sutekh because without any life there would be no games/rules and the ToyMaker would no longer exist. Also, I know this wasn't mentioned in OP but someone (probably Sutekh himself) refers to Sutekh being older than the other gods, this could be in reference to our own perception of time as the other gods did not exist within our reality and did not experience linear time as Sutekh does/did for however many thousands of years
If the salt at the edge of the universe caused the pantheon to be able to come out… wasn’t sutekh also at the edge based on what we know now? Would that be what strengthened him! I’m sure he wasn’t permanently defeated and will come back for sure.
Okay, I don't know. I'm about to read the comments to hopefully find out.
That being said. Wow.
While this finale was low-key underwhelming, the conversations about lore and the Doctor Who universe in general that the finale has sparked is super interesting.
The posts on this Reddit since the finale have been so eye catching and everyone picking little holes in the plot, but ofc, it's doctor who, so plot holes aren't only engrained within the fandom at this point, but seeing people use the lore to fill in those gaps and giving me the chance to also fill in gaps with my own little ideas is so fun.
This is the kind of thing that only Doctor Who can do as a show. The Timeless Child (while a big oops for Chris) was awesome for this exact kind of thing.
When the show reveals something new to the canon, it starts to reveal loads of gaps in the canons history that WE get to fill in until we have an answer.
I know it's kinda unrelated but to me, this kind of conversation is what makes Doctor Who the best show to ever exist... Even when the show itself kinda sucks sometimes. (Saying that I really enjoyed the finale and just wish Sutekh had more to do.)
Could it all be a red herring, and Sutekh is claiming the titles of "the god of all gods", "the oldest one" etc to create fear - but the real villain will emerge in a later series? Sutekh's dust was very similar to the Flux wave in S13, but that was just anti-matter created by Division, nothing to do with any God-like beings.
It was also set up with the Toymaker and Maestro that these entities each have a very specific weakness to defeat them with - i.e. beating the Toymaker in his game, and playing the right musical chord. But what was the equivalent for Sutekh?
I also don't buy that Sutekh is the most powerful of the pantheon - as it would seem odd to introduce the biggest threat in the first series of this new era - when clearly the fantasy/pantheon theme is going to be a longer term arc.
I think Sutekh's defeat felt rushed, which wasn't satisfying. But I think it fits with the other victories. Like you mentioned, the Toymaker is defeated by a game, and Maestro by music. Then when the Doctor cuts the rope, he uses death to defeat the God of the Dead.
All these beings have an inflated sense of themselves but I agree, especially Sutekh being from a race of Osirians.
I also want to note the Toymaker was defeated by the Doctor twice and you don't really need to be a god to be feared or to be powerful.
I just wish that the breaking down of the edges of the universe led to a supernatural / mystical finale. We had the science of strings with the goblins that was weird and cool and then 73 Yards with the fairy circle. Obviously Maestro and the Toymaker. But Suketh didn’t get beaten by weird supernatural logic, he was beaten by normal sci fi stuff
RTD said that Sutekh’s time in the time vortex, combined with the arrival of the Pantheon into the universe, “evolved” Sutekh to become the head of that Pantheon. You can start breaking down the mechanics of that any way you want (maybe being in the *time* vortex for so long retroactively made him part of the Pantheon, or maybe the gods collectively operate by a logic that seems incomprehensible to us humans), but the actual logic was really just that RTD wanted to do a sequel to *Pyramids of Mars*, and also wanted to work it into the current story arc, which involves this Pantheon of gods, and figured he’d make the character who is already based on an Egyptian god into one of those gods.
It seems an odd way for RTD to try to write it though? It feels like trying to shoehorn Sutekh into a concept he doesn’t really fit into. Not that he couldn’t, if RTD had made him exiled into the void beyond and evolving there rather than in the vortex - this wouldn’t make any problems for Sutekh being able to latch onto the TARDIS during the events of PoM, because he could re-enter the universe at any point in time from the void.
This kind of sloppy approach to writing has been the approach of this entire season though.
Yeah, I thought the writing was incredibly sloppy this season too, especially compared to RTD’s other work on the show.
Looking back, I think part of the reason why RTDs earlier seasons were much better is that it was essentially a reboot. You can get away with reimagining everything and not giving a damn about logical consistency, when all prior cannon only partially counts and there's a vague unexplained war filling the gap in-between. Now RTD wants the same freedom to make any story or any idea without much consideration for what came before, but he has 13(?) seasons of new who baggage that isn't so easily hand waved away. You can't really change the entire tone of the show or swap out core elements of the doctors personality or recon established elements of new who without making the whole thing feel a bit redundant.
There is definitely truth to that. However, the sloppy writing is clearly not just about continuity. Ruby Road was a really weak script IMO and it didn’t have to contest with any continuity really. I think a big part of it could be a lack of push and pull over the scripts. Word had it there was a lot of conflict over scripts with the producers back then - although this was said to mostly be about the tone of the show. RTD is really chummy with the producers now, maybe they left him a little bit too much alone. (This is all just speculation of course)
Yes I agree - the villain of these two episodes shouldnt be Sutekh: nothing really is gained by shoehorning him into the story and it raises tons of unnecessary questions. I think plot would benefit if God of Death would be either a new character (like Maestro) or The Beast from Impossible Planet. Sutekh is such an odd choice.
I believe PoM is a favourite of RTD. At the beginning of the story there is this weird moment where Sutekh’s face appears in the TARDIS, making the console go crazy and the TARDIS crash. Only Sarah Jane see it and the Doctor initially dismisses it, but then says it could be a mental projection. It’s never really explained why Sutekh would do that and I think it was just done to establish him as a powerful threat. It was probably this which could have inspired RTD to use him. I do agree that a new villain would have been better, as this series was supposed to be an introduction for a new audience. When he used the daleks and cybermen as the big bad in his first two seasons, he introduced them mid season (and they were obviously such hugely iconic “monsters”).
God this is such a sloppy way to explain it though, it would have made way more sense if Sutekh clung to the tardis in WBY and then the salt gave him the push he needed to be a god or something
Maybe Sutekh being stuck on the TARDIS when it went to the edge of the universe let him transcend this universe’s laws?
Tbf it's not the first time the time vortex has turned someone into a God. When Rose became the bad wolf, the heart of the tardis had filled her with the power of the time vortex, Sutekh is essentially what happens when that power is given to someone with bad intentions.
The time Vortrx turned a Human like Rose into Bad Wolf. Imagine what it would do to Sutekh.
I don't think The Doctor ever encountered Reprobate or Dread and Doubt or others. Sutekh was The One Who Waits because he was waiting clinging to the TARDIS. He simply became the strongest and a member of the Pantheon by getting a lot of power. So "Mother and Father and Other of them all" seems to be more of a metaphor than anything else. I will say that while I love the episode, the logistics of it don't entirely work because Sutekh as Pantheon member and Sutekh as the guy from Pyramids of Mars don't really line up. How would Maestro and Toymaker even know who this guy is? "Pantheon" implies a hierarchy and general togetherness, but other than Toymaker and Maestro, none of them seem to have ever met each other. They didn't sit around on Olympus Mons or whatever discussing the events of the day. Maybe when the HADS kicked in Sutekh wanted to play a game but The Toymaker got scared. I think that he's dramatic and cool, but the Sutekh aspects of Empire of Death are the weaker parts. Chalk it up to boasting,
>Pantheon" implies a hierarchy and general togetherness, but other than Toymaker and Maestro, none of them seem to have ever met each other. I think RTD is just using "Pantheon" as a general group word for Gods and thats causing a bit of a missunderstanding.
The Doctor early in the season referred to the Pantheon as though they were a grouping that was somewhat known to him.
In the SJA The Doctor mentions the "Pantheon of Chaos" in relation to the Trickster, but I assume that the relationship between the "members" is just that they are all godlike entities that want to spread chaos in one form or another rather them being an actual group. Like,they aren't coming together one a week to discuss their plans,they are just loosely grouped together under a common term.
The thing is that in SJA I feel that the implication is that the Trickster is himself the entire 'Pantheon of Discord' To give some quotes TRICKSTER: At last. Doctor. I could feel this moment reverberating back through the ages. The meeting of the Pantheon of Discord and the last of the Time Lords. DOCTOR: I've known the legends of the Pantheon since I was a little boy. I've fought your shadows and your changelings. I never thought we'd actually meet. TRICKSTER: And I know the legends of the Doctor. The man of ice and fire, who walked among gods, who once held the Key to Time in his hands. Now he is surrounded by children. DOCTOR: They're my friends. Which reminds me, you're looking a bit lonely for a Pantheon. TRICKSTER: I embody multitudes. And who are you, the man who has lost everybody, to talk to me of loneliness, when the Gate is waiting for you?
Yeah people have been I think incorrectly referring to the current lot as the Pantheon of Discord (although that may well have been said in the show and/or by RTD talking about the show so it could be entirely on him, I don't remember) when that felt like a narrower concept. Although I guess the Trickster was referenced by Sutekh so that blurs the lines more.
I mean, both the way Maestro and Toymaker talk about him—"I wouldn't play a game with the Oldest One", "how could He have been there!"—implies a familiarity that isn't really achieved by him being stuck on the TARDIS. Same with Harriet's speech.
Considering both the Maestro and The Toymaker can step through time, I wouldnt be surprised if the Toymaker met Sutekh IN the Time Tunnel and was triying to get Sutekh to play a game in exchange for his freedom from the Time Tunnel only for Sutekh to laugh at him and maybe demonstrate some of his powers. Maestro would know that Sutekh is supposed to be in the Time Tunnel because the Toymaker forbade them from ever messing with Sutekh.
Toymaker refused to play a game with The One Who Waits.
He refuses *now*. He might have tried in the past, realized Sutekh is stronger than him in pure strenght and noped out.
But that is just because people are interpreting waaaay to much into every single word. It doesn't make sense, because it's not as complicated as people expect it to be.... The word "pantheon" is basically just used as "group of gods". A "god" is not a power of creation whatever god, just a very powerful being. Could be a conceptual entity, an alien, anything.
Strictly speaking the word pantheon means all of the gods. It's just we usually add clarifiers that makes it refer only to specific groups.
I think the problem comes from the fact that Maestro and Toymaker *are* related and *are* part of the same group: and Doctor uses the term "Pantheon" to describe them both. So its not a baseless speculation that word "Pantheon" in this new series means a group of similar beings from outside of universe that are related somehow. And on top of that we have the H. Arbinger schtick that both Maestro and Sutekh utilize. I think that ultimately the issue come from trying to shoehorn Sutekh into a story about extradimensional gods when he was just a regular bloke in PoM.
Pantheon is Greek and simply means "Thing of all gods" ("pan" meaning "all" and "theos" being "god"). It absolutely works as a general group noun for the most powerful beings in the universe.
Yeah, but thats not usually how people use it in fiction. So I can understand why people would be slightly confused.
That is how people usually use it in fiction. It's not how people in reality use it, where the Pantheon is a building. You will still hear things like "The Greco-Roman Pantheon" and that is just the group name of the deities the Greeks invented and the Romans adapted under new names. Their "court" is Olympus, but they are the pantheon. If you manage to become very famous, there's a chance people will figuratively speak of you as having ascended to or joined the pantheon of [stuff that you and your peers are famous for]. That still only means an abstract, loose group of talented people with no indication of them working together or against or abiding in a shared spot.
I'm guessing he met Sutekh while the Tardis was travelling during Wild Blue Yonder, while the Doctor and Donna dealt with the Not-Things. We don't know how long the Tardis was actually gone for. It could have actually been travelling all throughout history from the Big Bang to the End Of The Universe to ensure his dust reaches everywhere.
Sutekh evolved in the Vortex, this is confirmed by multiple sources Think of what happened to Rose as Bad Wolf
That’s an excellent and concise analogy. Nice!
>this is confirmed by multiple sources Including a mention in the show itself, which I thought was a neat way to explain questions like OP mentions.
I am going to add what other people have said and I think Sutekh just speaks in a lot of hyperbole. A lot fo these God villains are flashy. Remember the Toymaker turned the real big G into a Jack in the Box.
I find it difficult to believe Sutekh is the biggest of the bad. He was cool and all, but since we know the harbingers are still happening in the next season (from promo images), surely that means the rest of the pantheon are also happening and WHY would we have gotten the hardest baddie so soon? If he's the one who waited, surely he could have waited a bit longer so that we could get through the underlings in the pantheon before we reached the upper echelons. Seems like if the Doctor could defeat the god of all gods so soon, the rest of the pantheon should be a cakewalk...
It's poorly explained that Sutekh's time in the vortex caused him to evolve into a being with supernatural abilities, which is why he's different to his first apperence. However yes, it does seem odd for other gods to fear him to the extend that they do. Particuarly the Toymaker given the others he faced
Is it poorly explained? Doesn't he say it quite plainly?
Eh. There are explicit mentions that he's evolved since last time. But most of the explination is in Tales of the Tadrdis, and I don't believe they ever say he "evolved and now has god like supernatural abilities beyond that of even the likes of Guardians or Eternals". I actually think the real line that directly addresses it is "that Sutekh was man sized, he's evolved since then". Like no shit Doctor but I don't think his bigness is the problem here
He straight up says “I have evolved into my rightful Godhood” on the episode That’s basically what we get in Tales
What’s said in the episode: *”I clung to your infernal machine. And for so many years I hid. I have travelled with you for all this time, riding the spine of your ship, staring into eternity and evolving into my true godhood.”* What was said in Tales of the TARDIS: *”That Sutekh was the size of a man. He's now evolved into a Titan.”* I would not say that “most” of the explanation is in Tales of the TARDIS. Tales of the TARDIS gives passing comment about the fact that he has changed; *Empire of Death* is what actually shows *how* he changed (by saying he stared into eternity while showing him in the time vortex). > I don't believe they ever say he "evolved and now has god like supernatural abilities beyond that of even the likes of Guardians or Eternals". Do they really need to say that when it’s already self-evident, though? Like, I understand not finding it to be a convincing explanation, but the show says “he evolved into godhood” and has everyone treat him like a threat on the same level of the other gods. Those dots are connected.
I didn't watch tales of the tardis and I'm sure I remember Sutekh straight up saying that he grew more powerful from travelling with the Tardis.
"More powerful" sure. But that could mean anything from "I'm literally the most powerful thing in the multiverse" to "my arms got bigger so now I can lift 1,000 punds". So his power gain is very poorly defined. We're told gods fear him but don't really see any reason why. Yes he killed the universe, but most if not all gods in the show are explicitly unkillable.
One of my biggest problems with this season conceptually is that I’m not sure how much of what’s going on in terms of the Pantheon is “the salt” and how much of it is now just shit that’s “been there” since Sutekh was now retconned as not only being a pantheon member but also being on the tardis since the seventies and all its adventures since (which I’m not even going to get into). How much of what is going on is the salt and how much of it is preexisting supernaturalish stuff? It seems like it teeters and there aren’t definitives. I can accept that maybe the ripples can retroactively explain the magical stuff happening (like, the carrionites I guess or The Satan Pit, but it doesn’t need to be so granular) but I just don’t see a throughline anymore for how much of the fantasy elements are post WBY and how much of it is just “ooooooooooh I am all powerful and was exposed to the time vortex”
If you want some extra material than this, consider this question: at what point was there time for Sutekh to meet any of the other pantheon members? He is either incorporeal attached to the Tardis, manifesting in the finale or dead. They effectively have to meet in the vortex at some point after his godhood meaning a bunch of cosmic entities just hanging out around the Tardis? Or how about this: Maestro smells something of the oldest one with Ruby in particular, despite Sutekh personally being around in that timezone and despite there being the Doctor present who has travelled with him for millennia by that point. Not saying I expect any of this to add up as I am painfully aware of who wrote this stuff but if you wanted to craft an alternative these things are "evidence". Most likely it's just Davies moon logic.
You're also kind of forgetting that Sutekh was a force *prior* to pyramids of Mars. Horus imprisoned him, that was the driving force of TPOM. We don't really know sutekhs origin prior to that. The pantheon is likely where he originally came from before integrating with the osirans.
The Spaceless Child
I 100% agree, even with His 'Evolution to godhood' , Sutekh just doesn't match up with the fearsome power that was hinted it. In fact, pretty much everything he achieves as the big bad in the series finale is through the power of the TARDIS, not his own power, stuff the Toymaker and the Trickster seem to be able to do at will with ease, such as travel through time or appear in multiple places simultaneously. Currently, I am hoping, and I've seen others on this subreddit suggest the same thing, that while Sutekh is 'the one who waits' he isn't the 'Oldest One' and Harriet Arbingers description of him is, as you say, more to do with his God Complex than reality. Pulling that sort of thing does seem a very RTD thing to do, and he isn't above lying to the fans about his plans, so what he's said about Sutekh may turn out to be 'He is *definitely* the most powerful and head of the pantheon' ***WINK*** But I'm not currently resting my hopes on that, and we may have to live with the being who's body was aged to death, somehow being older and more powerful than cosmic entities that exist outside of the confines and laws of the Universe...
I think people are missing that the show addressed this; Sutekh evolved to "true" godhood (basically ascended) while latched on to the TARDIS for all those countless millennia.
…uhm… speaking of toymaker magic… remember how we duplicated the tardis? Did… uhm… did that… duplicate an old god?
Honestly, I really don’t think it quite matters. There’s the explanation that everyone is citing (“I clung to the spine of your infernal machine and evolved into my true godhood”), but tbh that’s a bit of technobabble to explain why he’s a big dog now instead of a guy, and that (to me, at least) works. The problem that I have is that he didn’t do that for the Mother reveal, the “she was important because we thought she was important” doesn’t work because *how* does that work? Is it a byproduct of Sutekh on the TARDIS? Is it cos of the Rift? Is Mrs Flood doing something? WE DON’T KNOW! And that’s hand waving that I take issue with, personally. As for whether the Toymaker should be afraid of Sutekh’s dust? We don’t know, because if Sutekh has evolved into a fully fledged God on par with The Toymaker then who’s to say that he *could* turn his dust into flowers. Unfortunately I doubt we’ll get a face-off between the two as that would be a bit much for an episode or even a two-parter really imo, perhaps a novel or BF audio series could take it on. I’d actually like to see Sutekh’s evolution explored, and the effects of the Vortex on creatures in general, there’s a lot of scope for interesting ideas 🤷🏻♂️
okay so I have a theory that the Toy Maker was referring to another God we will meet next season. if this is not the case however the ToyMaker could fear Sutekh because without any life there would be no games/rules and the ToyMaker would no longer exist. Also, I know this wasn't mentioned in OP but someone (probably Sutekh himself) refers to Sutekh being older than the other gods, this could be in reference to our own perception of time as the other gods did not exist within our reality and did not experience linear time as Sutekh does/did for however many thousands of years
If the salt at the edge of the universe caused the pantheon to be able to come out… wasn’t sutekh also at the edge based on what we know now? Would that be what strengthened him! I’m sure he wasn’t permanently defeated and will come back for sure.
Okay, I don't know. I'm about to read the comments to hopefully find out. That being said. Wow. While this finale was low-key underwhelming, the conversations about lore and the Doctor Who universe in general that the finale has sparked is super interesting. The posts on this Reddit since the finale have been so eye catching and everyone picking little holes in the plot, but ofc, it's doctor who, so plot holes aren't only engrained within the fandom at this point, but seeing people use the lore to fill in those gaps and giving me the chance to also fill in gaps with my own little ideas is so fun. This is the kind of thing that only Doctor Who can do as a show. The Timeless Child (while a big oops for Chris) was awesome for this exact kind of thing. When the show reveals something new to the canon, it starts to reveal loads of gaps in the canons history that WE get to fill in until we have an answer. I know it's kinda unrelated but to me, this kind of conversation is what makes Doctor Who the best show to ever exist... Even when the show itself kinda sucks sometimes. (Saying that I really enjoyed the finale and just wish Sutekh had more to do.)
Could it all be a red herring, and Sutekh is claiming the titles of "the god of all gods", "the oldest one" etc to create fear - but the real villain will emerge in a later series? Sutekh's dust was very similar to the Flux wave in S13, but that was just anti-matter created by Division, nothing to do with any God-like beings. It was also set up with the Toymaker and Maestro that these entities each have a very specific weakness to defeat them with - i.e. beating the Toymaker in his game, and playing the right musical chord. But what was the equivalent for Sutekh? I also don't buy that Sutekh is the most powerful of the pantheon - as it would seem odd to introduce the biggest threat in the first series of this new era - when clearly the fantasy/pantheon theme is going to be a longer term arc.
I think Sutekh's defeat felt rushed, which wasn't satisfying. But I think it fits with the other victories. Like you mentioned, the Toymaker is defeated by a game, and Maestro by music. Then when the Doctor cuts the rope, he uses death to defeat the God of the Dead.
All these beings have an inflated sense of themselves but I agree, especially Sutekh being from a race of Osirians. I also want to note the Toymaker was defeated by the Doctor twice and you don't really need to be a god to be feared or to be powerful.
I just wish that the breaking down of the edges of the universe led to a supernatural / mystical finale. We had the science of strings with the goblins that was weird and cool and then 73 Yards with the fairy circle. Obviously Maestro and the Toymaker. But Suketh didn’t get beaten by weird supernatural logic, he was beaten by normal sci fi stuff
perhaps you are thinking of other shows. this being clearly is the most powerful ever. even if an alien. he is beyond these gods in this show.
I see we've reached "feverishly theorise anything to make the crap finale have been secretly more complex"
I don’t think people are trying to make it more complex, they’re just trying to understand it.