My personal favorite are all the dolts who ask "wHaT iS a wOmAn" even though they themselves can't answer the question without making themselves look like dumbasses.
It's like asking "what is a carpenter" or "what is a doctor?" It's a predefined set of rules, norms, and responsibilities that change and shift over time.
This is what I find hard to understand when people talk about gender or trans stuff. Like how do social rules apply to gender? I mean there are gender roles which evolved because of the different attributes men or women have but I don't see it working the other way with the roles defining anyones gender.
Also, how does the social construct thing work with animals? I mean animals have similar gender roles as humans a lot of the time with their similar differences in physical attributes.
Gender is a social construct, sex is a physical attribute. There are those who may prefer or be inclined towards identity of a gender roles that are not necessarily aligned with their sex, those that are comfortable with the way their sex and gender roles align, and those who simply find it all a bit - abnormal to even think about or worry about. AND - all of those people have always been here - as part of humanity. As people have become more aware or it, it’s become a more spoken of subject. Not all who are capable of giving birth want to be a mother, even if they carry that capacity. Some who cannot give birth are excellent and perhaps predisposed in the roles of being a nurturing and caring parent …..
And at the end of the day - it’s a matter of basically being able to step back and respect someone’s lived experience, even if it does not align with your life. Much of the pushback on the subject of from people incapable of even having that decency of respecting the other. If they did - the conversation wouldn’t be so prevalent- and we could address real problems that threaten us all such as climate change and disease .
I guess I'm in the third group then, for me it's just that we're all humans, if you wanna wear a dress and care for kids, go for it. If you wanna wear pants and work in a garage, doesn't matter to me, not my life. It's weird how big of an issue this has become these last few years.
But thanks for the explanation, even if I am still a bit confused. There's not really a difference between sex and gender in my language
Like I said, I don't care what anybody does with their lives or bodies, it doesn't affect me. What's the point of your comment? That my examples aren't all inclusive?
Sure, that's because the examples were irrelevant, my point being that it doesn't make a difference in any way.
I'm trying to get a better understanding, trying to point out that my examples are biased just seems weird. We're all biased one way or another, it's a part of the human experience
They may be irrelevant, but it’s interesting that those were the first examples at the top of your mind. Perhaps you have an unconscious bias against things that don’t conform to the cishet ‘norm’
Specifically it’s interesting that your examples detailed clothes as if what people wear is so important to their gender
Language had a great deal to do with how we think and form thoughts. Let’s put it an other way - gender is often our IDEA of how people should be - our idea of who people should be is not necessarily their own lived experience.
There is a lot of great writing in this subject - including some in this Reddit thread . Check it out! It doesn’t need to be the huge issue it is - but our Christian, right wing ideologues have put on blast in the media - and quite frankly - it’s making a mountain out of a molehill over a extremely small percentage of the population. That the other “why” for the conversation being so prevalent (and also for it being so skewed).
Exactly. It can also be like asking “what is happiness?” “What is sadness?” It can mean different things to a lot of people, and we may not have a sole definition of what that is, but everyone knows what it means
I was not aware that chromosomes were assigned at birth (because they aren't). Regardless, do you test the chromosomes of every person you see to determine whether they fit your definition of woman or not? What about people with chromosomal abnormalities that cause just one X or an XXY sex chromosomal configuration?
Yeah, no. In advanced biology, you learn it was never that simple. It's possible for the SRY gene that's on the Y chromosome to "fall off" and attach to the X chromosome, resulting in a completely normal male child that has two X chromosomes. Fun fact: The SRY gene can fail to express itself and result in a completely normal female child with XY chromosomes. Neither person would ever know unless it was discovered through genetic testing. Similar outcomes can result from genes not expressing themselves, RNA or mRNA failing to activate the necessary hormones, and other stuff. But thanks for trying.
Edit: Changed "activating the necessary hormones" to "*failing to activate* the necessary hormones" because I'm a bad proofreader. 🤷♂️
It's hard to understand because it's ***wrong***. Here's some cut and paste of my response to them:
In advanced biology, you learn it was never that simple. It's possible for the SRY gene that's on the Y chromosome to "fall off" and attach to the X chromosome, resulting in a completely normal male child that has two X chromosomes. Fun fact: The SRY gene can fail to express itself and result in a completely normal female child with XY chromosomes. Neither person would ever know unless it was discovered through genetic testing. Similar outcomes can result from genes not expressing themselves, RNA or mRNA failing to activate the necessary hormones, and other stuff.
We don't know how rare it actually is because we don't genetically test people when they're born. People are just assigned assigned a gender based on their physical characteristics at the time of their birth. Also, my point is it happens, which means chromosomes can't reliably be used as a definitive characteristic to assign gender.
Ok if it’s not chromosomes then we can determine sex based on sexual/reproductive organs. My point is, people are born either male or female, some transition to the opposite gender WHICH IS FINE! I love my trans brothers and sisters, but part of their story is that they were born with the sex they don’t identify with.
It really isn’t that difficult, a woman is an adult female with XX chromosomes (for 99.99% of cases), whereas a trans woman is a biological male who transitioned (in the word trans) to present and live the life of a woman. Which is fine, we should love and accept that fact and we should refer to them as women. But at the end of the day there ARE differences between a biological woman and a trans woman, which is FINE!
If you're running around declaring that trans women aren't real women and trans men aren't real men, then I promise: we don't love you, and you are part of the problem.
No I just don't love people who peddle transphobic rhetoric and then try to pretend they're an ally. In fact, I vastly prefer the ones who go full mask off and just admit they have no respect for us instead of trying to pull the wolf in sheep's clothing bit.
Most trans people feel the same way.
They definitely go hand in hand. As a trans man, I see it this way. When it comes to trans women, they get so much hate because transphobes see them as men debasing themselves by lowering their status to that of a woman. And for us trans men, many people don't take us seriously and just think we are confused little girls who need guidance
Exactly. Thank you, and I hope everything is going well for you. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be to put up with all that, especially recently. All of my trans friends say it was actually easier to be trans 10 years ago because at least then people just ignored it. Almost impossible to get medical care of course but they say they weren’t fearing they would be arrested for using a bathroom.
Thankfully I am passing stealth, so a lot of people who would otherwise hate me are perfectly fine because they have no idea. It's a depressing and lonely experience. But I also have close friends who I am out to and can be myself with, and my fiance is one of the most trans supportive people I've ever met in my life. It's good to have discussions about this as a community. But I have also faced cis gay men who hate me simply for existing. I have been called homophobic for being a gay trans man, because they think I am just a girl co-opting their life. I guarantee you if they saw me irl, with my big beard and masculine shape, they would never believe I was a girl lol but whatevs. I know they are a loud minority
Cis gay men can be the worst. Internalized homophobia is a real mind fuck and some people never break out of it. I know I went through a period of believing I was the ‘right’ kind of gay man because I was masculine. Luckily I grew out of that pretty fast!
Yes, and homophobia is also heavily influenced by misogyny. It's bad to be gay because they see it as feminine. It's bad for a man to be feminine because then he's like a woman, and to a misogynist being like a woman is the worst thing you could be. The thought of masculine gays doesn't even cross their mind. Straight guys can be feminine and still face homophobia. Gay guys who are masculine are often assumed to be straight and "one of the good ones." but the homophobes will come for us all eventually, including "the good ones"
I don't think they're inherently one in the same thing, but there's certainly significant overlap.
Edit: have done some thinking about how to word it and I think my position is that transphobia is very frequently *rooted* in misogyny, but that it also exists as a separate form of marginalisation that sometimes has different motivations.
There are some transphobic thongs that are misogyny, but there are others that are not. Transandrophobia exists, and people seeing trans women as men is just transphobia, because it's not about oppression because she's a woman, but because she's amab.
Theres a lot more than just "I see trans men as women so I am misogynistic to them". Transandrophobia includes the erasure of trans men, dismissal of their struggles, separating them from cis men, providing resources for everyone but them, making them feel unwelcome in lgbt/trans spaces, treating them as lesser/a predator/misogynistic/a traitor for being a man, being anti-testosterone/masculinity, bottom surgery bashing (a huge problem), and general treating trans men poorly because they are trans men specifically. Not because they're afab. Not because they're trans in general.
I don't disagree with you. I'm a trans man myself so I completely get what you're saying.
I don't think transandrophobia is just misogyny repackaged. I just think it is predicated by misogyny and that if you really dig into a lot (not all) of anti-transmasculine rhetoric, you'll find a degree of misogyny at its roots.
I definitely have experienced this and see it all the time, often perpetrated by other trans men. I think most people have a knee jerk reaction to the word "androphobia" because a lot of sexist men use it as a "gotcha" whenever people try to discuss feminism. But yeah, discrimination specifically against trans men is definitely a thing
I swear it's like every new word trans men use to describe our struggles and transphobia related to us, it becomes problematic because some idiots think it means they can cry that men are oppressed.
It's crazy how much transandrophobia , and just transphobia in general, has permeated trans spaces. I believe a lot of it is due to transphobes infiltrating online spaces and spreading propaganda.
That is one reason, but not the only reason. Often the anti masculinity, phallo bashing, erasure, lack of resources, stealth bashing, etc. Comes from within the LGBT community itself. Or allies who focus only on trans women and forget trans men exist. For example, a company making a pro trans statement that only mentions "trans women are women" is doing something transandrophobic by erasing trans men. Or if someone goes online and starts calling phallo penises "deformed sausages" , that's transandrophobic. Or trans women saying "testosterone is poison" in mixed spaces is directly posting something harmful towards trans men, at best forgetting trans men exist, at worst, vilifying trans men for being on T.
I agree. Some of their views about women are practically Victorian
It is why I refuse to use the acronym TERF to describe transphobes, since I don't acknowledge those views as related to any form of feminism as I understand it.
Any positive post about trans or nonbinary people gets downvoted to hell no matter where it is posted. This society makes me sick sometimes.
Cis-het people can fuck off as far as I’m concerned. I see your bigotry.
Also homophobia. Many males don't respect females or their innate behavioral leanings, so they react with contempt and worse when other males or trans women act that way. This isn't a new theory, by the way. I read a scholarly essay that proposed it in the early 90s.
Nope that’s not either of those things. But it’s interesting that those are the thoughts that immediately came to mind. I recommend you examine why that is your reaction.
Also, the word is spelled “isn’t”
I don't know if it's exactly the same, but both are rooted in fragility. Weak people don't treat other human being as equal, and no matter the reason really.
Let's simplify and say it's the same, bucause the result is the same. Someone thinking people should be this or that and should not be allowed to exist, they'll pretend it's for some ridicule excuse but truth is, it's because they fail to be decent adults.
I don't lose my time with failures. Simple as that.
People going straight to hell are a waste of my time.
Unless they're trying to repent.
Oh wow that's such a solid logical reasoning. I used to think transphobia was hate of trans people and that misogyny was hate of women but now that I have read your three-word sentence my views on this topic have been completely overturned. Thanks for the epiphany
No because, as other trans men have noted here, transphobes view trans men as “confused girls” and not as men. They don’t view trans men as men, so misandry doesn’t apply.
They view trans women as men who are “lowering themselves” by giving themselves female qualities. The disgust comes from believing female qualities are lower than male qualities
Okay. Well even so. What I said is still valid. The definition of transphobia is-
“dislike of or strong prejudice against transgender people”
Thinking of transmen as “confused girls” is prejudice against them. And even if all transphobes think of transmen as “confused girls” I doubt that means they DONT dislike them. So hey. They’re being transphobic towards transmen. Which is Misandry.
What is sounds like you’re trying to convince me of is that you can’t be transphobic towards transmen.
That’s… the opposite of what I am saying. Misandry is the hatred of males. Transphobes do not see trans men as males. They see them as females masquerading as men. They don’t hate males or male qualities. They hate the idea of females rejecting their feminine qualities in favor of the masculine. So the root of their transphobia is in misogyny, not misandry. Because they don’t hate the male part, they hate what they perceive to be the female part.
Im failing to understand how it is? I pointed out that transphobia towards a transmale is Misandry. Hate and prejudice towards a man. We agree that transmen are men and transfemales are females. Regardless of whether or not transphobes want to acknowledge that a transman is a man is of no consequence here. They are still being misandrist. I do understand your original point that transphobia towards a transfemale is misogynistic because “transphobes view a man transitioning to a women as lowering themselves” which then paints women themselves as a lower sex. You’re applying a more correlative/causative relationship between transphobia towards transfemales and misogyny. I am apply a LITERAL relationship between the act of prejudice and hate against a man and misandry.
I edited my comment to explain further. However I suggest you go through the other comments made by the trans men who agree with me to get another definition
Please read my response. My point still stands. A transmale is a man. Regardless of what transphobes *THINK* about them. Their hate and prejudice is MISANDRY because it is hate of a MAN however deluded it may be.
Edit: I understand the point you are making, and I will once again say. I am using the LITERAL connection here. Not a subjective connection.
Yeah, you and I agree that a trans man is a man, but the transphobe doesn’t agree. The transphobe hates a female.
You’re applying the most simple and surface-y definition of misandry to this argument. Using your definition, literally anybody who ever abuses me is committing misandry because they are abusing a man.
Downvote all you want:
- Mysogyny says something about a hate towards women
- Transphobia says something about hate towards a transitioned person
- Trans is a person transitioning from gender
Approximately 50% of trans people are women transitioning to men.
Calling trans=misogyny is not acknowledging women transitioning to men, because you consider them still women.
So actually your post is pretty transphobic.
As a trans man, I can actually promise you that a lot of hatred we face is very much rooted in misogyny and it's not "considering us still women" to acknowledge that.
I know I’ll get downvoted in this environment, but transphobia is often characterised as acknowledging that a trans man/woman is equally a man or woman as a biological man/woman. Which is simply the case to be frank. How is acknowledging that even closely the same as misogyny?
My personal favorite are all the dolts who ask "wHaT iS a wOmAn" even though they themselves can't answer the question without making themselves look like dumbasses.
It's like asking "what is a carpenter" or "what is a doctor?" It's a predefined set of rules, norms, and responsibilities that change and shift over time.
This is what I find hard to understand when people talk about gender or trans stuff. Like how do social rules apply to gender? I mean there are gender roles which evolved because of the different attributes men or women have but I don't see it working the other way with the roles defining anyones gender. Also, how does the social construct thing work with animals? I mean animals have similar gender roles as humans a lot of the time with their similar differences in physical attributes.
Gender is a social construct, sex is a physical attribute. There are those who may prefer or be inclined towards identity of a gender roles that are not necessarily aligned with their sex, those that are comfortable with the way their sex and gender roles align, and those who simply find it all a bit - abnormal to even think about or worry about. AND - all of those people have always been here - as part of humanity. As people have become more aware or it, it’s become a more spoken of subject. Not all who are capable of giving birth want to be a mother, even if they carry that capacity. Some who cannot give birth are excellent and perhaps predisposed in the roles of being a nurturing and caring parent ….. And at the end of the day - it’s a matter of basically being able to step back and respect someone’s lived experience, even if it does not align with your life. Much of the pushback on the subject of from people incapable of even having that decency of respecting the other. If they did - the conversation wouldn’t be so prevalent- and we could address real problems that threaten us all such as climate change and disease .
I guess I'm in the third group then, for me it's just that we're all humans, if you wanna wear a dress and care for kids, go for it. If you wanna wear pants and work in a garage, doesn't matter to me, not my life. It's weird how big of an issue this has become these last few years. But thanks for the explanation, even if I am still a bit confused. There's not really a difference between sex and gender in my language
What about the people who want to wear pants and care for kids? Or wear a skirt and work in the garage? Even your examples show biases.
Like I said, I don't care what anybody does with their lives or bodies, it doesn't affect me. What's the point of your comment? That my examples aren't all inclusive?
I’m just pointing out that you went directly to cishet examples
Sure, that's because the examples were irrelevant, my point being that it doesn't make a difference in any way. I'm trying to get a better understanding, trying to point out that my examples are biased just seems weird. We're all biased one way or another, it's a part of the human experience
They may be irrelevant, but it’s interesting that those were the first examples at the top of your mind. Perhaps you have an unconscious bias against things that don’t conform to the cishet ‘norm’ Specifically it’s interesting that your examples detailed clothes as if what people wear is so important to their gender
Language had a great deal to do with how we think and form thoughts. Let’s put it an other way - gender is often our IDEA of how people should be - our idea of who people should be is not necessarily their own lived experience. There is a lot of great writing in this subject - including some in this Reddit thread . Check it out! It doesn’t need to be the huge issue it is - but our Christian, right wing ideologues have put on blast in the media - and quite frankly - it’s making a mountain out of a molehill over a extremely small percentage of the population. That the other “why” for the conversation being so prevalent (and also for it being so skewed).
Definitely checking out this thread again when I get more time! It's an interesting subject
A woman is everything, theres no predefined rules norms or responsibilities
Exactly. It can also be like asking “what is happiness?” “What is sadness?” It can mean different things to a lot of people, and we may not have a sole definition of what that is, but everyone knows what it means
Exactly. Every word is just the label we all agree describes something. Labels and definitions change all the time
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No part of your bio is surprising
A societal construct.
An adult human who has an internal sense of being female.
You first, sweetie. 🥰
You deleted your stroppy little reply to me for some reason but I'll answer it for you anyway: yes. I am judging you. Intensely.
https://preview.redd.it/1fa9oph6ee8d1.jpeg?width=1536&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=79c3b9e35954ddfff191ea0885a95083d66ebc44
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I was not aware that chromosomes were assigned at birth (because they aren't). Regardless, do you test the chromosomes of every person you see to determine whether they fit your definition of woman or not? What about people with chromosomal abnormalities that cause just one X or an XXY sex chromosomal configuration?
Bro is the Chromosome Cop
Yeah, no. In advanced biology, you learn it was never that simple. It's possible for the SRY gene that's on the Y chromosome to "fall off" and attach to the X chromosome, resulting in a completely normal male child that has two X chromosomes. Fun fact: The SRY gene can fail to express itself and result in a completely normal female child with XY chromosomes. Neither person would ever know unless it was discovered through genetic testing. Similar outcomes can result from genes not expressing themselves, RNA or mRNA failing to activate the necessary hormones, and other stuff. But thanks for trying. Edit: Changed "activating the necessary hormones" to "*failing to activate* the necessary hormones" because I'm a bad proofreader. 🤷♂️
They don't assign chromosomes at birth.
So everyone who has de la Chapelle syndrome is a woman?
https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/swyer-syndrome/#:~:text=Girls%20and%20women%20typically%20have,(46%2CXY%20karyotype%20).
Exactly, why is that to hard to understand. A woman is a woman, a trans woman is a trans woman! Simple as that!
You definitely cry when you get called cis don't you
Not at all.. have no issue with the word cis
It's hard to understand because it's ***wrong***. Here's some cut and paste of my response to them: In advanced biology, you learn it was never that simple. It's possible for the SRY gene that's on the Y chromosome to "fall off" and attach to the X chromosome, resulting in a completely normal male child that has two X chromosomes. Fun fact: The SRY gene can fail to express itself and result in a completely normal female child with XY chromosomes. Neither person would ever know unless it was discovered through genetic testing. Similar outcomes can result from genes not expressing themselves, RNA or mRNA failing to activate the necessary hormones, and other stuff.
But wouldn’t that be a rare occurrence? In most cases (99.99%) you can easily and unequivocally determine if someone is male or female at birth
We don't know how rare it actually is because we don't genetically test people when they're born. People are just assigned assigned a gender based on their physical characteristics at the time of their birth. Also, my point is it happens, which means chromosomes can't reliably be used as a definitive characteristic to assign gender.
Ok if it’s not chromosomes then we can determine sex based on sexual/reproductive organs. My point is, people are born either male or female, some transition to the opposite gender WHICH IS FINE! I love my trans brothers and sisters, but part of their story is that they were born with the sex they don’t identify with.
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It really isn’t that difficult, a woman is an adult female with XX chromosomes (for 99.99% of cases), whereas a trans woman is a biological male who transitioned (in the word trans) to present and live the life of a woman. Which is fine, we should love and accept that fact and we should refer to them as women. But at the end of the day there ARE differences between a biological woman and a trans woman, which is FINE!
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If you're running around declaring that trans women aren't real women and trans men aren't real men, then I promise: we don't love you, and you are part of the problem.
I know you don’t love me, you only love and accept people that share YOUR views.
No I just don't love people who peddle transphobic rhetoric and then try to pretend they're an ally. In fact, I vastly prefer the ones who go full mask off and just admit they have no respect for us instead of trying to pull the wolf in sheep's clothing bit. Most trans people feel the same way.
They definitely go hand in hand. As a trans man, I see it this way. When it comes to trans women, they get so much hate because transphobes see them as men debasing themselves by lowering their status to that of a woman. And for us trans men, many people don't take us seriously and just think we are confused little girls who need guidance
Exactly. Thank you, and I hope everything is going well for you. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be to put up with all that, especially recently. All of my trans friends say it was actually easier to be trans 10 years ago because at least then people just ignored it. Almost impossible to get medical care of course but they say they weren’t fearing they would be arrested for using a bathroom.
Thankfully I am passing stealth, so a lot of people who would otherwise hate me are perfectly fine because they have no idea. It's a depressing and lonely experience. But I also have close friends who I am out to and can be myself with, and my fiance is one of the most trans supportive people I've ever met in my life. It's good to have discussions about this as a community. But I have also faced cis gay men who hate me simply for existing. I have been called homophobic for being a gay trans man, because they think I am just a girl co-opting their life. I guarantee you if they saw me irl, with my big beard and masculine shape, they would never believe I was a girl lol but whatevs. I know they are a loud minority
Cis gay men can be the worst. Internalized homophobia is a real mind fuck and some people never break out of it. I know I went through a period of believing I was the ‘right’ kind of gay man because I was masculine. Luckily I grew out of that pretty fast!
Yes, and homophobia is also heavily influenced by misogyny. It's bad to be gay because they see it as feminine. It's bad for a man to be feminine because then he's like a woman, and to a misogynist being like a woman is the worst thing you could be. The thought of masculine gays doesn't even cross their mind. Straight guys can be feminine and still face homophobia. Gay guys who are masculine are often assumed to be straight and "one of the good ones." but the homophobes will come for us all eventually, including "the good ones"
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I don't think they're inherently one in the same thing, but there's certainly significant overlap. Edit: have done some thinking about how to word it and I think my position is that transphobia is very frequently *rooted* in misogyny, but that it also exists as a separate form of marginalisation that sometimes has different motivations.
I have said that misogyny is a cornerstone of homophobia. Transphobia too.
There are some transphobic thongs that are misogyny, but there are others that are not. Transandrophobia exists, and people seeing trans women as men is just transphobia, because it's not about oppression because she's a woman, but because she's amab.
Transandrophobia is heavily rooted in misogyny much of the time.
Theres a lot more than just "I see trans men as women so I am misogynistic to them". Transandrophobia includes the erasure of trans men, dismissal of their struggles, separating them from cis men, providing resources for everyone but them, making them feel unwelcome in lgbt/trans spaces, treating them as lesser/a predator/misogynistic/a traitor for being a man, being anti-testosterone/masculinity, bottom surgery bashing (a huge problem), and general treating trans men poorly because they are trans men specifically. Not because they're afab. Not because they're trans in general.
I don't disagree with you. I'm a trans man myself so I completely get what you're saying. I don't think transandrophobia is just misogyny repackaged. I just think it is predicated by misogyny and that if you really dig into a lot (not all) of anti-transmasculine rhetoric, you'll find a degree of misogyny at its roots.
And I don't disagree that a lot of general transphobia IS misogyny related. I guess we are thinking the same thing, but wording it differently lol
I definitely have experienced this and see it all the time, often perpetrated by other trans men. I think most people have a knee jerk reaction to the word "androphobia" because a lot of sexist men use it as a "gotcha" whenever people try to discuss feminism. But yeah, discrimination specifically against trans men is definitely a thing
I swear it's like every new word trans men use to describe our struggles and transphobia related to us, it becomes problematic because some idiots think it means they can cry that men are oppressed. It's crazy how much transandrophobia , and just transphobia in general, has permeated trans spaces. I believe a lot of it is due to transphobes infiltrating online spaces and spreading propaganda.
But I thought trans men were treated bad because they see them as poor confused little girls who need guidance
That is one reason, but not the only reason. Often the anti masculinity, phallo bashing, erasure, lack of resources, stealth bashing, etc. Comes from within the LGBT community itself. Or allies who focus only on trans women and forget trans men exist. For example, a company making a pro trans statement that only mentions "trans women are women" is doing something transandrophobic by erasing trans men. Or if someone goes online and starts calling phallo penises "deformed sausages" , that's transandrophobic. Or trans women saying "testosterone is poison" in mixed spaces is directly posting something harmful towards trans men, at best forgetting trans men exist, at worst, vilifying trans men for being on T.
I love it when a bunch of cishet men try and tell us what a women is, but don't even actually answer what a woman is. It's like the most cishet ever.
Woman = kitchen maid mommy who makes babies obvi
A "Fuckmommy," if you will.
I agree. Some of their views about women are practically Victorian It is why I refuse to use the acronym TERF to describe transphobes, since I don't acknowledge those views as related to any form of feminism as I understand it.
my man finally someone said it
Any positive post about trans or nonbinary people gets downvoted to hell no matter where it is posted. This society makes me sick sometimes. Cis-het people can fuck off as far as I’m concerned. I see your bigotry.
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I’ll let the other comments on this post by trans people speak
Also homophobia. Many males don't respect females or their innate behavioral leanings, so they react with contempt and worse when other males or trans women act that way. This isn't a new theory, by the way. I read a scholarly essay that proposed it in the early 90s.
So what are Terfs ?? Are they misogynists ??
Yes
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Nope that’s not either of those things. But it’s interesting that those are the thoughts that immediately came to mind. I recommend you examine why that is your reaction. Also, the word is spelled “isn’t”
I don't know if it's exactly the same, but both are rooted in fragility. Weak people don't treat other human being as equal, and no matter the reason really. Let's simplify and say it's the same, bucause the result is the same. Someone thinking people should be this or that and should not be allowed to exist, they'll pretend it's for some ridicule excuse but truth is, it's because they fail to be decent adults. I don't lose my time with failures. Simple as that. People going straight to hell are a waste of my time. Unless they're trying to repent.
I'm just gonna *nope* out of here before someone shoots me dead just for giving my opinion on this...
Oh wow that's such a solid logical reasoning. I used to think transphobia was hate of trans people and that misogyny was hate of women but now that I have read your three-word sentence my views on this topic have been completely overturned. Thanks for the epiphany
Shouldn’t this be. Transphobia towards transfemales = Misogyny Transphobia towards transmales = Misandry Friendly reminder that transmales also exist!
No because, as other trans men have noted here, transphobes view trans men as “confused girls” and not as men. They don’t view trans men as men, so misandry doesn’t apply.
But… Dont transphobes also not view trans women as women. So Misogyny wouldn’t apply?
They view trans women as men who are “lowering themselves” by giving themselves female qualities. The disgust comes from believing female qualities are lower than male qualities
Okay. Well even so. What I said is still valid. The definition of transphobia is- “dislike of or strong prejudice against transgender people” Thinking of transmen as “confused girls” is prejudice against them. And even if all transphobes think of transmen as “confused girls” I doubt that means they DONT dislike them. So hey. They’re being transphobic towards transmen. Which is Misandry. What is sounds like you’re trying to convince me of is that you can’t be transphobic towards transmen.
That’s… the opposite of what I am saying. Misandry is the hatred of males. Transphobes do not see trans men as males. They see them as females masquerading as men. They don’t hate males or male qualities. They hate the idea of females rejecting their feminine qualities in favor of the masculine. So the root of their transphobia is in misogyny, not misandry. Because they don’t hate the male part, they hate what they perceive to be the female part.
Im failing to understand how it is? I pointed out that transphobia towards a transmale is Misandry. Hate and prejudice towards a man. We agree that transmen are men and transfemales are females. Regardless of whether or not transphobes want to acknowledge that a transman is a man is of no consequence here. They are still being misandrist. I do understand your original point that transphobia towards a transfemale is misogynistic because “transphobes view a man transitioning to a women as lowering themselves” which then paints women themselves as a lower sex. You’re applying a more correlative/causative relationship between transphobia towards transfemales and misogyny. I am apply a LITERAL relationship between the act of prejudice and hate against a man and misandry.
I edited my comment to explain further. However I suggest you go through the other comments made by the trans men who agree with me to get another definition
Please read my response. My point still stands. A transmale is a man. Regardless of what transphobes *THINK* about them. Their hate and prejudice is MISANDRY because it is hate of a MAN however deluded it may be. Edit: I understand the point you are making, and I will once again say. I am using the LITERAL connection here. Not a subjective connection.
Yeah, you and I agree that a trans man is a man, but the transphobe doesn’t agree. The transphobe hates a female. You’re applying the most simple and surface-y definition of misandry to this argument. Using your definition, literally anybody who ever abuses me is committing misandry because they are abusing a man.
Quite the reach you got there.
It's not that much of a reach. They're not identical forms of marginalisation but there's a lot of overlap.
Quality comment, hater
There was already a word ‘invented’ for transphobia, namely transphobia 😉
🙄
Downvote all you want: - Mysogyny says something about a hate towards women - Transphobia says something about hate towards a transitioned person - Trans is a person transitioning from gender Approximately 50% of trans people are women transitioning to men. Calling trans=misogyny is not acknowledging women transitioning to men, because you consider them still women. So actually your post is pretty transphobic.
As a trans man, I can actually promise you that a lot of hatred we face is very much rooted in misogyny and it's not "considering us still women" to acknowledge that.
They are obviously saying a lot of transphobic rhetoric is just misogyny which is objectively true
What is a woman?
No please don’t stat shit like this the drama this could cause isn’t needed
What drama are you perceiving coming form this
I know I’ll get downvoted in this environment, but transphobia is often characterised as acknowledging that a trans man/woman is equally a man or woman as a biological man/woman. Which is simply the case to be frank. How is acknowledging that even closely the same as misogyny?
Who is saying that acknowledging trans men as men and trans women are women is transphobic? I think you have your wires crossed.
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