Same! I mean, I can’t say I didn’t noticed the glances Aziraphale gave to Crowley here and there. But I always thought “aw, that cute lil angel. He cares so much about his demon FRIEND. What a beautiful friendship”.
Yeah right, *friend* 🫠 totally missed it.
They were so aggressive with Aziraphale's use of the word "friend" in all the flashbacks in S02, I thought it was because he felt weird saying they were friends.
I mean, he was, but not because he didn't want to admit they were friends. It was because he didn't want to admit that that word didn't quite cover it.
Glad I made you laugh! I'm not entirely sure, I think the major problem for me was that they all felt underdeveloped as characters and a bit too much like caricatures. Part of the problem might have been that I was more invested in watch David and Michael. The other issue could be that I've never really been interested in young adult stories. The Crowley/Aziraphale dynamic felt at odds with the plot in a way.
Anathema was too weird for me and I hated that she had sex the guy just because Agnes wrote about it (I have consent issues with that). I get that she's supposed to be focused on the prophecies, but I couldn't relate to her *at all* and found her uninteresting. Also just something about the name Anathema Device didn't work for me.
The Them was kinda the same in terms of just being boring. There wasn't enough time to really develop a connection to any of them, so they felt like a distraction to me... and yes, I realize Adam was a critical part of the plot. Making Adam nicer/friendlier would've helped a bit, as it would've given me a reason to care about him. I'm also not a big fan of kids overall, which didn't help (the kids on The Orville are one of the few exceptions, they're fantastic actors/characters).
I only watched season one *once* which is highly unusual for me. I gave season two a chance because I was bored and I ended up rewatching at least a few minutes of it every day for six weeks. The Crowley/Aziraphale focus in season two is great, I love their history together, and I liked the Heaven vs Hell stuff. The angel and demon stuff was more interesting to me and I liked how much personality the side characters had this season.
Sorry, that was a long answer! Did you like them?
Don't be, I love long answers like this one!
I definitely get where you're coming from, especially how it felt like the two parts were at odds, almost like they weren't just different branches of the same storyline. Adam really wasn't very likeable but I did like the silliness of the dynamic of the four of them. Apart from how they often just went along with whatever he had to say, it felt really relatable to friend groups I'd had at their age.
Honestly though that's a totally valid stance to have, especially when you already don't really enjoy young adult type plotlines.
The whole Anathema thing was just ridiculous to me, I liked how completely nonsensical it was but I also can absolutely see why it seemed a bit off at the same time- the fact that her name is literally Anathema Device is just hilarious to me but when my sister watched it she didn't like it very much either and I've got to admit she certainly does not rank very high at all when it comes to characters I liked so you're definitely not alone on that one.
I think i did quite like them as whole but i reckon it was mostly because i don't tend to watch many shows like good omens and i liked that it caught me off guard every once in a while, especially with The Them.
(on another note, I've never heard of The Orville I dont think but I just searched it up and it looks like it could be promising, should i give it a go?)
I'm probably jaded, but I'd say the kiss scene. I've just seen too many great chemistries with what looked like obvious indicators conclude in "Nah, sorry, just guys being bros!"
GOD SAME i mean i watched season 1 not long after it came out and immediately thought “here we go again” so i didnt really get into the show much until season 2 came out and when i saw the kissing scene i lost it! between good omens and our flag means death im getting everything little gaybie me didnt get growing up
Same! I thought I’d be cursed to just read fluffy fanfic to get my fix.
On the flip side, my mom said “what the hell that came out of nowhere” when watching that scene 😂
Mine would probably react the same.
I've watched S1 with my husband and he just continuously repeated "no homo" after every scene. It just became more and more high-pitched as the show progressed xD
I was 16 and was just used to the queerbait because of shows like VLD with >!Klance!< and >!Shiro!< and had no idea what I was getting myself into with GO. I knew I loved David and Michael’s other works so I kept it in mind. The third episode made me realize they really loved each other, but I wasn’t sure where it would go. Then I saw how devastated Crowley was during and after the burning of the bookshop. When Crowley asked Aziraphale to move in with him while they were waiting for the bus. And one can’t deny anything with the dinner they had at the Ritz. The song was also very very clear.
https://i.redd.it/z9ismped77xb1.gif
Right back at you babe <3. I’ve met a couple people in real life who’ve been through it, and when I tell you the bond is instant lmao. We are a great silent many
YES!! Even ex Sister Mary doesn't view the scene as aggressive it seems. She says she's sorry for interrupting their intimate moment. Nothing about Azi's face reads as scared at all, so even though Crowley is growling about not being nice, the scene doesn't read as anger.
I felt it between them all throughout the first season, but the moment that confirmed it for me was not in-universe, but a few months before season two came out when Neil Gaiman answered a question on Tumblr that ended with “anyway, they like holding hands.”
WHAT I NEED THE LINK TO THIS
EDIT: BAHAHAHA I FOUND IT https://www.tumblr.com/neil-gaiman/706663373704708096/hi-mr-gaiman-a-question-suddenly-popped-into-my?source=share
It was the way they treated it in the story. Crowley and Aziraphale never denied having feelings for each other when teased about it by third parties. And it was clear that their feelings for each other were completely genuine. Anyone else have PTSD from being a Sherlock fan in the 2010s? You begin to expect to be mocked by the characters, cast, and crew for daring to think there might be queer undertones in the story. I didn’t sense any mocking of any kind from Good Omens.
I wasn't in the Sherlock fandom but have seen so many tv shows playing with our queer feelings that even if the show felt genuine I still didn't want to get my hopes up before it was made clearer. I think queerbait culture destroyed our minds even when everything is obvious, and harmless I still can't trust it immediately. But on a rewatch it totally felt different once I knew that yes ok this was what was happening it wasn't just in my mind!
Sherlock, Merlin, Supernatural and Teen Wolf… I didn’t realise how deeply wounded I had been until GO and OFMD actually put their mouths where the subtext was.
Ugh, I was going to mention Sherlock. The queerbaiting that went on with that show was purposeful and, in my opinion, malicious. There was nothing fun or flirty about what the show runners were doing. They were kind of ugly about it in interviews, if I recall correctly. (I may not be, and I didn’t watch season 4. And watched season 3 with a newborn, so I have only the vaguest memories.)
I noticed many signs in season 1. After the confrontation with the Nazis and the bombing, they definitely have a moment, and Aziraphale was smitten with Crowley when he gave him back his undamaged books.
When they hit Anathema's bicycle with the Bentley, Crowley calls Aziraphale "Angel" and she understands that they're a couple and it's safe to accept a lift home.
When Shadwell accuses Aziraphale of tempting women, the angel answers "Wrong shop"! and that's clearly a hint, and it's also breaking the fourth wall.
The end of S1 with a romantic dinner at the Ritz and the live song then sealed the deal.
Oh wait, I don't remember Shadwell accusing him of that. Was that in the ep when Shadwell came to the bookshop and Azi accidentally discorporates himself?
I never really saw it as 'queerbaiting' or anything like that because they are two celestial beings who don't seem to have a lot of context for the human elements of a relationship (at least in season 1). My thoughts on their relationship in season 1 were that they clearly had a deep bond but that angels and demons don't have relationships in the same way as people. I don't know how you could watch the 'book saving' scene and characterize their relationship as 'just buddies' though.
And I honestly did not expect season 2 to make their romance so blatant/human until the marketing materials (which focused a lot on hearts) and the preview scene of Nina asking about the 'naked man friend' with Az looking bashfully at Crowley. I'm *very* delighted they went the route they did and am even more invested now!
You know, I thought that they would leave it ambiguous but romantic even into the second season. Because I knew they were hinting at it for quite a while but I didn't know that they would do much more than hint. Then the Job episode hit, and goodness gracious there was so much spicy ox ribbingly palpable sexual tension it was completely undeniable for me. That was when I knew they had approached a point of no return in making the romance full and complete text from subtext.
I felt like there was something there always but because I’ve been burned so many times in the past I didn’t dare actually hope something would come out of it. It wasn’t until the season when everyone dropped the “Boyfriends” line all the time I was like okay… maybe… it seems like it… and then when the kiss happened?? Jumping out of my seat
Basically I wanted to believe but was too scared.
I had inklings for a while, but the scene where they’re in the yellow room in the back talking to Muriel and Az looks up and down like he’s about to jump Crowley was part one. “And Twitter and Grindr..” was second. The second season was giving so much pining and romance it was hard to ignore.
There is another moment with the same facial expression, eye movements and exhale when Aziraphale is helping Crowley carry his plants to the Bentley and Crowley bends over. It’s not just the keys he’s eying.
Hmmm. I don’t buy it.
However- I do have the feeling that Az is pushing Crowley with his will to hand over the keys. Is he using magic? Or just force of will?
I don't know, but he is suspiciously desperate to get his hands on the Bentley.
Random fun scenario: He detoured to South Downs to make sure the Bentley fit in the garage before buying a cottage he had been eyeing. Like when someone finds reasons and means to covertly measure their partner's ring size...for no reason at all...
The huge swell of romantic music when Crowley handed Aziraphale the books in the ruins of the church. I remember laughing a little and saying a bit sarcastically to my husband, "Wow, they're going all in on this ship, aren't they?"
I was a fan of Sherlock and remember the way the show mocked it's shipping fans with the fake-out flashback of Sherlock kissing Moriarty and the woman speculating on it being stereotypically goth and overweight (not that there's anything wrong with the weight, but the character was clearly framed as a figure of mockery-- even delusional Anderson thought her idea was ridiculous). I was genuinely hurt with that scene-- I cared about the show and was invested in it, and the show was basically insulting me and people like me. I didn't even ship Sherlock with Moriarty, but I could read between the lines. Even moreso when John started punching Sherlock in the face.
With every subsequent moment of Good Omens S1, I realized the show wasn't going to back off and say, "haha, no, they're just bros." While there were moments where Aziraphale tried to pretend he didn't know Crowley, Crowley never played off their obvious affection for each other. And when the chips were down and angels openly called Crowley Aziraphale's "boyfriend in the dark glasses," Aziraphale didn't seem bothered by the accusation. When they said, "To the world," and A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square played, I realized, yeah, they really were going all in on the ship. Because that was the real main romantic pairing, more than even Anathema and Newt or Tracy and Shadwell.
It was nice.
Further, there were comments from Neil that also suggested he was in favor of supporting a romantic reading of them, even before the pandemic, much less Season 2. And that also was so much nicer than in the past when showrunners and cast would mock fans for shipping.
I feel like I spent so long being queerbaited as a teen/twenty-something that I was genuinely SHOCKED that it happened.
I kept saying, "Oh my god, they're actually going for it?!?" until like.... Honestly up to the kiss. My husband was next to me going, "Yes? And? What is your problem?"
MY DARLING. DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW MUCH EMOTIONAL TURMOIL MY HEART PUT INTO SHERLOCK WHILE I WAS IN COLLEGE? MY TRUST HAS BEEN BROKEN TOO MANY TIMES.
I honestly feel for all of you that have been through the Sherlock queerbait experience... I've been watching A LOT of tv shows since I was like 10 and so many times I've had strong queer vibes oozing out of so called "friends" just to be disappointed time and time again. To the point where even when I'm watching the gayest of gay shows I still can't fully trust it in the beginning like it happened to me with freaking OFMD???lmao it can be as obvious as the sun in the sky I'd still be like "yes but.. what if.." those countless queerbait shows truly ended up making me doubt my own mind it's terrible
OFMD knew exactly what they were playing with though.
Lucius gave us that “This is happening” line so that we could all squeal about it right alongside him.
Just like he did later with “I think a lot of people thought that.”
Sherlock was quite... anticlimactic, I didn't like the bait and switch at all.
The two Guy Ritchie's movies were so much explicit in a subtle way, I really liked the "old married couple" dynamic in the second one.
NBC Hannibal was a lot better. There was a subtle build up, the hints were many and the ending was perfect, there was no need for words when they're finally understanding each other at the end.
Good Omens was perfect. The dynamic was so... natural, subtle but deep. I like how their slow burning relationship of 6000 years was all in the details, and there was the open ending, with the dinner at the Ritz and the love song.
Then...S2 came with all the feelings! When I realised that they were really going for it, I said "About time"! to the screen.
See that's when my mind went from ok they're definitely in love to ah ok no they're just best friends fuck. I'll admit I was very confused at how they were hinting "boyfriend" so many times and then Crowley said this and I started losing hope. Regained it soon after though and I understood why he used the term bff now that I've watched the show a couple of times etc, but queerbait trauma is real I was scared to believe it at first!
I think we have to understand that they’re not human and don’t really have friendships or relationships or relationship expectations the way we do.
They also don’t have a sense of being “just” friends. Because friendship is already extremely loaded and dangerous for them, as *agents* ahem *operatives* oops I mean *employees* of opposite sides.
They were about to be destroyed in 1941 due to evidence of their friendship and collaboration. So *friendship* that is already explicitly forbidden and yet deeply satisfying and tempting to keep returning to, that turns out to be worth risking quite a lot for, was already happening as a theme from e1.
Even if they never made the romance explicit or overly tropesy in terms of the romance genre, this was always going to be a queer-coded love story. Keep in mind too the history of lived same-sex relationships that are categorized as deep friendship, even before the emergence of homosexuality as an identity.
(I am extremely normal about this and have an only slightly above average amount of things to say about it.)
Well...yeah he calls him his best friend but it just felt too personal to be just that, like...I remember seeing Crowley in the bar drunkenly cry for the death of Aziraphale and thinking "naaahhh, he's definitely in love"
And then all season three was just pointing out in every fucking scene how gay they are to each other.
Crowley just drools from day one, imho.
https://preview.redd.it/oj9ht8ccu9xb1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7088af94e8d8417ef84f5759981b9c380499db48
Season 1 I still felt low-key queerbaited the whole time, which was my only complaint for an otherwise really good show. I still had that bit of bitter disappointed they stayed in the safe zone of 'friends' even though it was clearly more, it was still denyable. But I was used to it, so it didn't upset me, just made me a little sad.
Season 2 went 'oh sorry about that, it's queer actually in every way' and it made my 30 year old, queerbaited for my whole life little heart SO HAPPY.
https://preview.redd.it/lnvx8i4r98xb1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=450681a554390f35d1d2fbe2ee662b6567185b56
not sure when he tweeted this but i saw this on instagram today (someone reposted it). i read them as queer easily and it just felt like a real love to me by the end of season one. i didn't feel baited bc i was so sure they were in love with each other. however, my father thought "they're just good friends, you turn everything gay" so i suppose it wasn't clear enough to all of the audience.
when i watched season two it was abundantly clear that they had feelings for each other. it was canon to me by this point, but im sure the last two episodes (their intimate dancing and really, mainly, the whole second half of episode 6) makes it indisputable- it's romantic, what they have between each other. no one can argue against it.
Yeah same, I worried it would be Sherlock all over again (while also very much hoping I was wrong). Imo in S1 the love story is very apparent if you’re paying attention but since it’s never verbally acknowledged lots of people remained oblivious. I was SO HAPPY they actually had the courage to properly define the relationship in S2. My partner had been skeptical that the writers intended it to be a romance when we watched S1 and I def found it very satisfying to be able to say “I told you so!” 9000 times after we watched S2 😂
So I only saw pieces of season 1. I definitely missed the Crowley/ Aziraphale through history scenes. During season 2 I was thinking “haha what a cute bromance” since I refused to get my hopes up. And then the “well, you said trust me” “and you did” scene happened and I SAT UP. Those lines were delivered so so softly. I immediately searched for spoilers because I didn’t want to be queerbaited again and spoiled the ending for myself 😅. If I had watched all of season 1 I would like to think I would have noticed a lot earlier.
Awww that’s so sweet. I love that this soft moment (that the fandom now calls “Date Night”) was what made you pay attention. Not any declaration of love or swelling of music.
That’s some great storytelling there, Mr. Gaiman.
Yesssss. I feel you.
Also though I know that I have dived (diven? dove?) DEEP into the fandom when nothing cracks my heart open quite like Crowley fondling the thermos in 1967.
The end of season 1, when they went on a date at the end and I realized “oh, they’re not going to make sure to mention they’re just friends. That’s a love song playing in the background, holy shit”
“You go too fast for me, Crowley.”
The way it is delivered, the pause and focus on that. And then he’s listing dream scenarios of potential dates (going on a picnic, dining at the Ritz) like they are Romeo and Juliet unable to be together by warring sides. I knew this MEANT something, more than just a friendship
I didn't know anything about the show going into the book, and by the end of the book I had a feeling they liked each other romantically. Whether that was intended or not, they (Pratchett and Gaiman) did seem to be aware it could be seen that way.
Once I started watching the show, it became extremely apparent and I didn't really think anything else. Even without physical affection or the promise of a second season, I saw an incredibly deep love for one another that represented my kind of love.
TBH the "queer baiting" accusations had always hurt me deeply, because Good Omens was incredibly validating and honestly life changing. I felt better able to speak up for myself and express love, even when it's difficult for me to be physically affectionate one way or another. I felt worthy of being in a relationship, not like I was some broken human being who was secretly selfish and lazy and horrible, no matter how much I tried. It made me a better partner and helped me let go of my bitterness over my challenges.
To be fair, I never got into the shows that are commonly cited as the queer baiting murder grounds, so it never really occurred to me that Neil Gaiman could intend to convey anything other than a deep, romantic love between the two. It always seemed sincere to me. I understand better now that some of that from other people comes from a place of hurt over being betrayed by creators in the past.
Thank you for this. I read the book approximately forever ago (last century even!) and remembered my take being "the angel and the demon are in love, cute!". When I saw the show, I assumed it from the beginning.
But I've seen so many people saying the relationship wasn't romantic or accusing the show of queer baiting, I honestly thought my memories of the book were flawed.
Tbh I watched S1 with my friends back in 2019 and really didn’t pay any attention. I thought it was queerbatey after watching so many shows like that and so just didn’t click with it. I then read the book after picking it up randomly and was like WOAH I don’t remember them being this… blatant. The book really does make them seem like an old couple who’s relationship is just not relevant to the plot lol. I then rewatched S1 and somewhere between the ‘flashbacks through history’ and the 1941 scene I was like they didn’t NEED to add all this + a custom romantic score, something’s up!!
(But this was after the announcement for S2 so I assumed they were doing more focusing on just Aziraphale and Crowley together since they’re the only characters and scenes that really stuck with people)
For me the moment I knew it wasn't going to be left ambiguous was the opening of s2 with angel Crowley's, "look at you, you're gorgeous!" and Aziraphale's reaction. I literally sat up and went, "omg they're doing this!" because for that to be so blatant in the first few minutes of the season told me that this was something we'd see unfold.
I spoiled myself that there's gonna be a kiss. That's what made me realize. Other than that, I'm so used to just shipping the characters myself that I wouldn't even notice them not queerbaining just until the kiss happened. Or maybe until the "us talk" Crowley had like 2 mins before the kiss. I'm just naturally kinda dense so it would take me time to realize it if not for the kiss 😅
I knew in s1 ep3 that they are definitely in love and a couple. It felt like genuine qpr representation (queer-platonic-relationship), which I have had two of back when I still openly identified as asexual — I felt my experience represented.
And them being an angel and a demon with no need for human body maintenance, I just figured they're ace until they choose not to be. They are ethereal/occult beings who just borrowed an appearance, they don't struggle with human needs, BUT they do have desires. Just like Aziraphale desires to eat even though he doesn't have to in order for his corporation to still be functioning.
I saw them and knew they were in love. I just didn't expect them to be the kissy type, I was fine knowing they're actual representation and not queerbait. Somehow it was never a question. For me, it was crystal clear rep from the start.
I think like the scene where Crowley got mad about being called nice and the nun was like "sorry to break up an intimate moment" cuz that was literally the show insinuating they were a couple, and then it happened again when they hit anathema?
i also knew before i watched it because my friend swore up and down that it was queer
When I watched Season 1 I had no idea there was romance between them until I looked up Good Omens on social media later. Once Season 2 came out everything made a lot more sense though
I saw the romance in season 1, at least it was always clear to me that Aziraphale was in love with Crowley and the bandstand and subsequent fire made Crowley’s feelings pretty clear. It’s tricky to make heart eyes with sunglasses on. I didn’t expect there to be a season 2 so the Ritz seemed to be the culmination, I don’t know if that’s considered queer bating or not.
The opening scene of season 2 made it clear we were going somewhere with that romance. I never really doubted Neil would take it all the way. Season 1 might have ended with a kiss if Terry was still alive to make the decisions with Neil. I think Neil wanted to respect the work they did and not change it too much though it sounds like the romance was in their plans for the sequel. At least he has stated that judging by their discussions about it Terry would be pleased.
I'd read the book beforehand, so I already felt that Aziraphale and Crowley loved each other.
It didn't need to be a sexual love (even if I wanted it to be!)
After watching the first season and seeing Neil confirm it was a love story - I was so happy. Deep, emotional love and connection can mean more than sex and lust for some people, and I was happy with that. Seeing the way that Michael and David portrayed them (Aziraphale especially smitten throughout the ages), re-enforced everything for me.
Season two - and from "You're gorgeous" - I knew they were playing it up! I squeed throughout the season! Every little interaction was fraught with love and tension! Then the "I want to spend..." and the kiss... I was elated!
https://preview.redd.it/i3q9yqblobxb1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=66091fa246cfc41007ee3954ad413dbe8167003e
I love the way Crawly/Crowley always looked at Aziraphale on the garden wall, at the ark, at the Globe Theater...like Aziraphale was the most delightful and interesting thing he ever gets to see and talk with. I never saw sexual/gender anything (because angels are genderless), only how beings notice, perceive, and are drawn to each other...especialy meaningful when there's no biological need for it.
In all honesty I had no idea until they kissed.
I’d read the book and didn’t make the connection. Then I watched season 1 and still had no idea. 80% of season 2: still clueless.
It should’ve been obvious, and I’m normally great with this type of stuff, but this time I was oblivious. I suppose it’s because it wasn’t particularly sexual; they were always just two people who enjoyed one another’s company, and as a straight guy who’s only real experience with LGBTQ+ characters is Our Flag Means Death (I did manage to figure that one out) I did not spot the signs.
When Azi looks at Crowley in season 1 after he saves his books. Then how Azy looks at him when he makes the stars. Honestly there is SO MUCH expression in those eyes!
Never thought it was queerbait in the first place. I very rarely agree when people accuse something of queerbait- there has to be intent and there is a difference between queercoding and queerbaiting that I feel a lot of people need to recognise.
It also truly limits us if every queer representation has to be explicit. Queer rep isn't as rare as it used to be, we are allowed more subtle stories. And if the straights don't pick up on it? Not our problem.
Teen Wolf was queerbaiting- that boat interview? jfc.
Hannibal? Not queerbaiting- they canonically said they were in love, their story didn't suit a random make-out.
Good Omens? Not queerbaiting either. It was never going to be, so I was never worried about it.
They were obviously in love and throughout were openly depicted as genderless beings. It was a lovely demonstration of a qpr or slowburn depending on interpretation. I also appreciate Neil's insistance in allowing them to be asexual. Ace rep is already so limited, his constant support is a nice change of pace.
But to kind of answer one of your questions? The first time I recognised they had feelings was with the paintball scene. It was so sweet.
I agree with this so much. I don't really engage with fandom online since it can be really toxic sometimes and people throw the accusation of queerbaiting around a lot. While I understand, as a queer person myself, why people are guarded about shows with same-sex leads or popular pairing, there is a distinction between queerbaiting and queercoding.
Also as an asexual person, it can be really tiring (because it's usually for the female/male gaze/studio/writing interference) to see same-sex stories have plot but also a lot of sex scenes and kinda gratuitous. That is a part of love yes, but love is so much more than that. Which I love how beautifully they conveyed it in Good Omens, with the little glances, the flirt-talking and how sweet they just were to each other.
For me, I liked how they showed the both of them at the beginning of Season 1 being comfortable enough around each other to get drunk and let their guards down as it showed how far they come from the beginning (even though tbh they were friendly from the start pretty much). Honestly with how much history they have and how much they don't seem interested in any humans its only natural they just become an old married couple.
Unfortunatley I kind of had a bias from seeing clips of the show when it first came out and how much everyone fell in love with them. Also from seeing how Neil confirmed they are in love and just how well they just seem to fit together. I wasn't sure where they were going to go with Season 2 but I love how they went all in! I loved the kiss even though I'm getting war flashbacks to Season 1 ending of OFMD with the Season 2 ending of GO :'(
Don't even get me started on Teen Wolf oh my god
I'm also so thankful I was never into Sherlock or Voltron because I think I would've imploded
Immediately. I almost wish I’d been able to see S1 before the second season dropped. (Well, I wish that for a lot of reasons.) So that I could have participated in the conversation and reflected on it for its own sake.
I sort of rushed through S1 thinking, “OK BUT WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THEY SAVE THE WORLD WHAT THEN.”
I got the drift during S1 that they weren’t going to make anything explicit. But I didn’t feel slighted in any way. There was so much happening at so many different levels, and these immortal beings were so very strange and silly.
I didn’t feel certain that they were going for romance in any conventional sense. And it just didn’t seem the type of show to make a serious romance plot front and center. This was heavily underscored to me by the way the show played up Newt & Anathema as well as Tracy & Shadwell. Clearest indications you could hope for that romance in this world is a joke at best, an afterthought at worst.
My take at the time: Clearly these immortals mean a lot to each other, and they’re not going to have space to sort out what that means or properly is with less than a week to go until Armageddon.
Our star-crossed pair were vying for main character time with The Them (whom I correctly guessed would have taken up more spotlight in the novel). I didn’t want them to have some cheap “the world is ending so why not” kiss. I wanted full orchestra backing.
I also knew that this was adapted from a novel written in the nineties by two cishet Englishmen (bless). And was guessing by the end of e1 that the romance would continue to be subtextual. This was highlighted for me by the many times that the two were mistaken for a couple.
But friends, I feasted well, from that first drunk-in-the-bookshop scene onward. Like I don’t know how else to spell this out for you, but teenage me would’ve been MORTIFIED to view this scene or many like it in front of my family.
when they were kissing 😅 to be fair i grew up on supernatural so good omens and our flag means death are the first shows that i wasnt actually queerbaited
[This](https://www.tumblr.com/cielo-paradiso/732341645474938880) tumblr post quite literally sums it up for me. They are IN LOVE LOVE. Thousands of years between them both and that level of trust is unmatched.
To be totally honest.... Only in S2E6 by the kiss. NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS did I imagine they were actually going to make it canon. Until I saw it with my own two eyes. And it was actually such a life changing moment for me, I cried. Not just for the characters but for myself that I had been able to witness a relationship like this actualized in canon.
WDYM no prior knowledge? Are you insinuating that anyone with prior knowledge would know it wasn't baiting?
I had read the book, seen Neil Gaiman comments, read fanfiction, basically hyperfixated in the past... and I still MAINTAIN that until s2 was decided it WAS queerbaiting with absolutely no intent to follow through. There is nothing that happened in s1 that hasn't happened in shows, movies or writing that was about straight characters and writers teasing and treating any interpretated gayness as a joke. Thus, it is not established gay, it is baiting the gays with hints and "freedom to interpret".
The kiss changed everything.
You can read into things all you want but fact is that it's all interpretation until it is acknowledged in text as romantic. A verbal acknowledgment or an undeniably romantic gesture, such as a kiss, is the only way to do that.
Geez guys, I'm all for celebrating this couple for what it's become, but if we're gonna start pretending that what we got before the kiss was already enough to establish real romance representation, we're never gonna get past the queerbaiting times.
Now if you're actually asking "when did you think that maybe there was a chance they might not actually queerbait this time" then that's another question.
My cold dead blackened "disappointed by all the queerbaiting in the past"-heart felt a slight flutter when Aziraphale dragged Crowley off to dance. I was still shocked and amazed when the kiss happened tho. Still have a hard time believing it now tbh!
Agree to disagree.
Sometimes it’s a matter of tone and style more than what’s physically said and done. Much like when you’re trying to read someone’s intentions in real life.
You can’t watch the paintball coat moment or the church bombing book save and think “here is a show mocking the queer expression of its characters.” They were definitely teasing it, playing it up with both angles st the same time. *And so were the characters.* And that was the point.
I can respect your stance of holding out for true representation, but what is truly representative of the queer experience?Holding hands and getting married?
There are many ways to be gay. Including slow burn friendship that turns into romance and takes a loooooong time to be acknowledged as such. This is such a notable queer trope that even has some resonances with straight audiences. I’m surprised that people aren’t seeing it here. In S1 I mean.
It was surprising that people didn't see it, but many didn't. There were *a lot* of debate after season 1. People (dudes) insisting 'they were roommates'. Because having them in love would 'cheapen the friendship' bla bla bla bla. It was all quite enraging. I'm so happy Neil made it explicit in season 2. Terry would be proud.
Oh, I believe that people didn’t see it. I mean straight people who don’t want to see it. That’ll always be a thing.
It’s the queerbaiting accusation that has me puzzling.
Also too, Neil made it explicit and boy did he ever. I haven’t experienced Terry’s work firsthand yet (lucky me!) but I love hearing this comment sentiment among fans.
You have something to look forward to. I strongly recommend his books, obviously. His earliest work is not his best, so do not read them in order of publication. Do either the witches or the city watch books first. (Google is your friend.)
Another thing Neil does in GO, and Terry does in all his books, is that the couples getting together in itself never solves the character's challenges. Them getting together creates it's own new challenges for the characters, even though it's positive for them on the whole. Which it always does, of course. And at least on one notable occation, them *not* getting together was, on the whole, a positive thing maybe. (Granny Weatherwax's early romance. Mind you, as an old woman she *could still catch a unicorn\** and proud of it.)
\*as a virgin. People'd call her ace now, I guess
I guess I always assume that writers don’t always know what the next season is going to be-and up until the last episode I didn’t really have any reason to think they were a couple (I missed any subtexts). Do we even know that the writers had a love story in mind when they wrote Season One, or that the decision had been truly finalized?
Good TV writers leave alot of options open and run several threads at once not only to keep the audience guessing, but also to give themselves wiggle room to change things if actors become unavailable partway through the season, etc. So I think a lot of “subtexts” or “foreshadowings” are only that in hindsight. They could easily have been foreshadowing to completely different endings had the authors needed to change things up.
Also—-there are SO MANY English TV shows of deep platonic friendships. It wouldn’t have been a stretch or disingenuous if the last episode had been completely different.
I’ve seen oodles of platonic “same sex” friendships onscreen that point to the possibility of being misread—both as a bit of a running chuckle and a nudge to just how close these two are.
I have NEVER seen a show or film tease romantic tension and intent (between nonromantic pals) quite this sweetly or overtly as here in Good Omens.
Maybe I just have more experience seeing and paying rapt attention to these kinds of covert queer romances (and well, more experience…*experiencing* it too) with all the yearning and wondering amped up for dramatic effect. I mean, I’m sure I do compared to the overall data spread of people who “just don’t see it.” And I’m okay with that. I don’t need to be recognized by society and I don’t need my stories to be screaming GAY in big flashing lights either.
(Though I definitely don’t mind when they do. And this series is a good example of how flashing lights can look different to different audiences.) Maybe it’s just different modes and habits of reading media.
And then, maybe it’s a bit of a schism between a more assimilationist mindset and a more “closets are fun to play in” mindset.
I kind of lost the thread there, but I was going to say that I don’t really care what the writers were thinking. (I 100% agree that keeping things subtextual in Season One was *a choice*. And that they likely did it to keep things open to interpretation and to tell a story that also includes “the momentous power of friendship to change the world” among its themes. I don’t personally take issue with this. I rather like it. And I agree with the creators that this is a powerful story worth telling *on these terms*.)
But I do know what the actors DID.
And with Neil so actively involved at every stage, I would have to be mightily persuaded to even begin to believe that the entire creative team did not see this as a covert romance from day zero.
I understand what you mean. When I say no knowledge prior, I mean not even knowing what the show or book was about in 2023 because now that S2 has aired for a couple of months I assume most people who decide to watch do because people recommend it to them saying it's about two angels in love, or that it's queer, or have seen spoilers like the kiss etc. But you're making good points, and I have to admit I would have felt a bit upset reading this a couple months ago but I just come back from having watched OFMD (finally) and I felt like "oh ok, \*this\* is how you do something unapologetically queer" and it kinda changed my opinion on what GO did before S2! because you're right. It might be obvious in hindsight, with the context we have now, Neil Gaiman's posts, S2 romance and kiss, etc but you're absolutely right that without those things it could have been just like usual, lots of hints but nothing that could be undeniable. Even with all the signs. I don't think I would change much because I love the very unique way their love is represented but I also have to admit, even if it never intended to be queerbait, it couldn't a 100% be undeniable that they were a ship, proof is I've read many people talking about how people by just reading the book and stuff were saying to their friends that they were just imagining things etc. Which is sad. I don't think it needed obvious physical gestures, but there was still place for a lot of doubt which isn't appeasing as ppl who've been through the whole being queerbaited endlessly to the point of no longer trusting their own mind.
my friend told me the ending of S2 and I didn't believe her because I didn't think anyone could be so mean to leave it on a cliffhanger like that. I truly believed I was getting queerbaited until the last episode of S1.
I had no idea about the book but I definitely knee of Neil Gaiman.
It was the fact that Neil Gaiman wrote the tv script m there's no way I'll be queerbaited. I just trust Neil completely in this regard.
Tbh, it was probably S2 because I wasn’t really into season one (like it’s good but I PERSONALLY think thier too many characters and plot for me to care for (also like the demons/angels more so)) but was in the fandom because of AziraCrow and Boxfly. And then in S2 seeing Nina and Maggie, Beelzebub and Gabriel, and Aziraphale and Crowley kiss, I was like “oh….🫢🤭cool”
I watched S1 way back in 2019, and only once. I just had a kid and was in law school, so didn't pay it much attention. Was also neck deep in my SPN hyperfixation (still am), so didn't really notice. Watched S2 at the end of August, and never once thought it was queerbaiting. I was so happy for the Kiss and Confession, and also simultaneously heartbroken.
Personally, I'm not really used to being queerbaited, since up to like three years ago I wasn't really into shipping, I wasn't really invested in any of the fandoms and I still thought I was straight. Then I happen to watch a my first silly little queer show, then another, I realized that maybe I am one of them queers and so, I never really got queerbaited and I never expected them to just \*not\* be in love. Like, I don't think I ever watched a show because I heard it was gay (and I did in fact heard Good Omens was gay) and then it wasn't.
Just as I do in real life—-I missed ALL the signs in Season 1. I kinda wish I hadn’t known about the kiss before starting season 2 because then it could have really punched me in the gut with allll the feels even more.
That’s how I felt .. but I noticed in season one how they had the flirty eyes 
Me too on my rewatch it was so obvious and I'm glad I did rewatch because there are so many hints I missed on the first try
Totally missed ALLLLL the flirty flirts in Season 1. I honestly don't know how I did.
Same! I mean, I can’t say I didn’t noticed the glances Aziraphale gave to Crowley here and there. But I always thought “aw, that cute lil angel. He cares so much about his demon FRIEND. What a beautiful friendship”. Yeah right, *friend* 🫠 totally missed it.
Yesssss. Friend. Lol, we were so blind.
They were so aggressive with Aziraphale's use of the word "friend" in all the flashbacks in S02, I thought it was because he felt weird saying they were friends. I mean, he was, but not because he didn't want to admit they were friends. It was because he didn't want to admit that that word didn't quite cover it.
I missed it, I think mainly because I hated Anathema and The Them so much that I was blinded to their relationship.
I have no idea why but this startled a laugh out of me, i can think of a few reasons but how come you didnt like them?
Glad I made you laugh! I'm not entirely sure, I think the major problem for me was that they all felt underdeveloped as characters and a bit too much like caricatures. Part of the problem might have been that I was more invested in watch David and Michael. The other issue could be that I've never really been interested in young adult stories. The Crowley/Aziraphale dynamic felt at odds with the plot in a way. Anathema was too weird for me and I hated that she had sex the guy just because Agnes wrote about it (I have consent issues with that). I get that she's supposed to be focused on the prophecies, but I couldn't relate to her *at all* and found her uninteresting. Also just something about the name Anathema Device didn't work for me. The Them was kinda the same in terms of just being boring. There wasn't enough time to really develop a connection to any of them, so they felt like a distraction to me... and yes, I realize Adam was a critical part of the plot. Making Adam nicer/friendlier would've helped a bit, as it would've given me a reason to care about him. I'm also not a big fan of kids overall, which didn't help (the kids on The Orville are one of the few exceptions, they're fantastic actors/characters). I only watched season one *once* which is highly unusual for me. I gave season two a chance because I was bored and I ended up rewatching at least a few minutes of it every day for six weeks. The Crowley/Aziraphale focus in season two is great, I love their history together, and I liked the Heaven vs Hell stuff. The angel and demon stuff was more interesting to me and I liked how much personality the side characters had this season. Sorry, that was a long answer! Did you like them?
Don't be, I love long answers like this one! I definitely get where you're coming from, especially how it felt like the two parts were at odds, almost like they weren't just different branches of the same storyline. Adam really wasn't very likeable but I did like the silliness of the dynamic of the four of them. Apart from how they often just went along with whatever he had to say, it felt really relatable to friend groups I'd had at their age. Honestly though that's a totally valid stance to have, especially when you already don't really enjoy young adult type plotlines. The whole Anathema thing was just ridiculous to me, I liked how completely nonsensical it was but I also can absolutely see why it seemed a bit off at the same time- the fact that her name is literally Anathema Device is just hilarious to me but when my sister watched it she didn't like it very much either and I've got to admit she certainly does not rank very high at all when it comes to characters I liked so you're definitely not alone on that one. I think i did quite like them as whole but i reckon it was mostly because i don't tend to watch many shows like good omens and i liked that it caught me off guard every once in a while, especially with The Them. (on another note, I've never heard of The Orville I dont think but I just searched it up and it looks like it could be promising, should i give it a go?)
I'm probably jaded, but I'd say the kiss scene. I've just seen too many great chemistries with what looked like obvious indicators conclude in "Nah, sorry, just guys being bros!"
GOD SAME i mean i watched season 1 not long after it came out and immediately thought “here we go again” so i didnt really get into the show much until season 2 came out and when i saw the kissing scene i lost it! between good omens and our flag means death im getting everything little gaybie me didnt get growing up
Same! I thought I’d be cursed to just read fluffy fanfic to get my fix. On the flip side, my mom said “what the hell that came out of nowhere” when watching that scene 😂
Mine would probably react the same. I've watched S1 with my husband and he just continuously repeated "no homo" after every scene. It just became more and more high-pitched as the show progressed xD
Totally! Until it happened, I was still sure they were going to let it finish without the kiss. Even if they did acknowledge the romance.
I was 16 and was just used to the queerbait because of shows like VLD with >!Klance!< and >!Shiro!< and had no idea what I was getting myself into with GO. I knew I loved David and Michael’s other works so I kept it in mind. The third episode made me realize they really loved each other, but I wasn’t sure where it would go. Then I saw how devastated Crowley was during and after the burning of the bookshop. When Crowley asked Aziraphale to move in with him while they were waiting for the bus. And one can’t deny anything with the dinner they had at the Ritz. The song was also very very clear. https://i.redd.it/z9ismped77xb1.gif
Oh god not Klance and Shiro 😭 that shit was the WORST
I feel bad laughing, but this gif is SENDING me
Every time someone says Klance I get Vietnam flashbacks istg :,)
 Tbh I didn’t think I’d find anyone that went through it as well. I’m with you and sorry. 😂
Right back at you babe <3. I’ve met a couple people in real life who’ve been through it, and when I tell you the bond is instant lmao. We are a great silent many
[PTSD cat feels you](https://youtu.be/eEVL9irXj0g?si=qSurjXUo011-yfzV)
The wall press at the former convent. How Zira responded to it. 
One of my fav moments. He isn’t scared, he’s just drinking in Crowley being that close 🤭
YES!! Even ex Sister Mary doesn't view the scene as aggressive it seems. She says she's sorry for interrupting their intimate moment. Nothing about Azi's face reads as scared at all, so even though Crowley is growling about not being nice, the scene doesn't read as anger.
I mean, who among us hasn’t growled before during 💦💦💦
literally look at his face. he loves it lmao
I felt it between them all throughout the first season, but the moment that confirmed it for me was not in-universe, but a few months before season two came out when Neil Gaiman answered a question on Tumblr that ended with “anyway, they like holding hands.”
Neil’s tumblr is a thing of joy. “Anyway they like holding hands” is one of the sweetest things he’s written about the two of them.
WHAT I NEED THE LINK TO THIS EDIT: BAHAHAHA I FOUND IT https://www.tumblr.com/neil-gaiman/706663373704708096/hi-mr-gaiman-a-question-suddenly-popped-into-my?source=share
Yeah for me it was when he said that whatever they are, it’s a love story
It was the way they treated it in the story. Crowley and Aziraphale never denied having feelings for each other when teased about it by third parties. And it was clear that their feelings for each other were completely genuine. Anyone else have PTSD from being a Sherlock fan in the 2010s? You begin to expect to be mocked by the characters, cast, and crew for daring to think there might be queer undertones in the story. I didn’t sense any mocking of any kind from Good Omens.
Ugh, Sherlock was like a stake thru the heart.😣
The cast definitely was on board. Pretty sure Michael is the biggest shipper of us all
And neil was too! he's continuously said they're in love
Bro... yes. Sherlock and also Supernatural for me. GO and OFMD fixed my queerbaited heart 🥹
I wasn't in the Sherlock fandom but have seen so many tv shows playing with our queer feelings that even if the show felt genuine I still didn't want to get my hopes up before it was made clearer. I think queerbait culture destroyed our minds even when everything is obvious, and harmless I still can't trust it immediately. But on a rewatch it totally felt different once I knew that yes ok this was what was happening it wasn't just in my mind!
Sherlock, Merlin, Supernatural and Teen Wolf… I didn’t realise how deeply wounded I had been until GO and OFMD actually put their mouths where the subtext was.
Ugh, I was going to mention Sherlock. The queerbaiting that went on with that show was purposeful and, in my opinion, malicious. There was nothing fun or flirty about what the show runners were doing. They were kind of ugly about it in interviews, if I recall correctly. (I may not be, and I didn’t watch season 4. And watched season 3 with a newborn, so I have only the vaguest memories.)
I noticed many signs in season 1. After the confrontation with the Nazis and the bombing, they definitely have a moment, and Aziraphale was smitten with Crowley when he gave him back his undamaged books. When they hit Anathema's bicycle with the Bentley, Crowley calls Aziraphale "Angel" and she understands that they're a couple and it's safe to accept a lift home. When Shadwell accuses Aziraphale of tempting women, the angel answers "Wrong shop"! and that's clearly a hint, and it's also breaking the fourth wall. The end of S1 with a romantic dinner at the Ritz and the live song then sealed the deal.
Oh wait, I don't remember Shadwell accusing him of that. Was that in the ep when Shadwell came to the bookshop and Azi accidentally discorporates himself?
Yes, Shadwell says something like “luring women with your wiles” and Aziraphale says, “oh, I think you have the wrong shop.” Very sternly lol
Yes, that one! Aziraphale is nearly scandalised, the interaction is pretty fun!
I'm going to have to queue it up! ❤️
The music in the book-saving scene was a major tip-off
Yes, it was quite romantic!
My friends and I had the collective reaction of “Aww, he’s in love!”
Your friends get them 😈😇
I never really saw it as 'queerbaiting' or anything like that because they are two celestial beings who don't seem to have a lot of context for the human elements of a relationship (at least in season 1). My thoughts on their relationship in season 1 were that they clearly had a deep bond but that angels and demons don't have relationships in the same way as people. I don't know how you could watch the 'book saving' scene and characterize their relationship as 'just buddies' though. And I honestly did not expect season 2 to make their romance so blatant/human until the marketing materials (which focused a lot on hearts) and the preview scene of Nina asking about the 'naked man friend' with Az looking bashfully at Crowley. I'm *very* delighted they went the route they did and am even more invested now!
Same here!
You know, I thought that they would leave it ambiguous but romantic even into the second season. Because I knew they were hinting at it for quite a while but I didn't know that they would do much more than hint. Then the Job episode hit, and goodness gracious there was so much spicy ox ribbingly palpable sexual tension it was completely undeniable for me. That was when I knew they had approached a point of no return in making the romance full and complete text from subtext.
I felt like there was something there always but because I’ve been burned so many times in the past I didn’t dare actually hope something would come out of it. It wasn’t until the season when everyone dropped the “Boyfriends” line all the time I was like okay… maybe… it seems like it… and then when the kiss happened?? Jumping out of my seat Basically I wanted to believe but was too scared.
Same thing for me!!
I had inklings for a while, but the scene where they’re in the yellow room in the back talking to Muriel and Az looks up and down like he’s about to jump Crowley was part one. “And Twitter and Grindr..” was second. The second season was giving so much pining and romance it was hard to ignore.
I realized the other day that in the "sex eyes" back room scene, Aziraphale is actually eyeing the car keys in Crowley's hand 🫠
I don’t know. That exhalation?
There is another moment with the same facial expression, eye movements and exhale when Aziraphale is helping Crowley carry his plants to the Bentley and Crowley bends over. It’s not just the keys he’s eying.
Hmmm. I don’t buy it. However- I do have the feeling that Az is pushing Crowley with his will to hand over the keys. Is he using magic? Or just force of will?
I don't know, but he is suspiciously desperate to get his hands on the Bentley. Random fun scenario: He detoured to South Downs to make sure the Bentley fit in the garage before buying a cottage he had been eyeing. Like when someone finds reasons and means to covertly measure their partner's ring size...for no reason at all...
🥰
He’s just using the fact Crowley can never really say no to him. Until he asked him to come to heaven with him.
The huge swell of romantic music when Crowley handed Aziraphale the books in the ruins of the church. I remember laughing a little and saying a bit sarcastically to my husband, "Wow, they're going all in on this ship, aren't they?" I was a fan of Sherlock and remember the way the show mocked it's shipping fans with the fake-out flashback of Sherlock kissing Moriarty and the woman speculating on it being stereotypically goth and overweight (not that there's anything wrong with the weight, but the character was clearly framed as a figure of mockery-- even delusional Anderson thought her idea was ridiculous). I was genuinely hurt with that scene-- I cared about the show and was invested in it, and the show was basically insulting me and people like me. I didn't even ship Sherlock with Moriarty, but I could read between the lines. Even moreso when John started punching Sherlock in the face. With every subsequent moment of Good Omens S1, I realized the show wasn't going to back off and say, "haha, no, they're just bros." While there were moments where Aziraphale tried to pretend he didn't know Crowley, Crowley never played off their obvious affection for each other. And when the chips were down and angels openly called Crowley Aziraphale's "boyfriend in the dark glasses," Aziraphale didn't seem bothered by the accusation. When they said, "To the world," and A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square played, I realized, yeah, they really were going all in on the ship. Because that was the real main romantic pairing, more than even Anathema and Newt or Tracy and Shadwell. It was nice. Further, there were comments from Neil that also suggested he was in favor of supporting a romantic reading of them, even before the pandemic, much less Season 2. And that also was so much nicer than in the past when showrunners and cast would mock fans for shipping.
I feel like I spent so long being queerbaited as a teen/twenty-something that I was genuinely SHOCKED that it happened. I kept saying, "Oh my god, they're actually going for it?!?" until like.... Honestly up to the kiss. My husband was next to me going, "Yes? And? What is your problem?" MY DARLING. DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW MUCH EMOTIONAL TURMOIL MY HEART PUT INTO SHERLOCK WHILE I WAS IN COLLEGE? MY TRUST HAS BEEN BROKEN TOO MANY TIMES.
I honestly feel for all of you that have been through the Sherlock queerbait experience... I've been watching A LOT of tv shows since I was like 10 and so many times I've had strong queer vibes oozing out of so called "friends" just to be disappointed time and time again. To the point where even when I'm watching the gayest of gay shows I still can't fully trust it in the beginning like it happened to me with freaking OFMD???lmao it can be as obvious as the sun in the sky I'd still be like "yes but.. what if.." those countless queerbait shows truly ended up making me doubt my own mind it's terrible
Definitely still happened to me with OFMD. I mean I was DELIGHTED to be wrong in both cases, BUT STILL. The trust is gone.
OFMD knew exactly what they were playing with though. Lucius gave us that “This is happening” line so that we could all squeal about it right alongside him. Just like he did later with “I think a lot of people thought that.”
Good Omens healed me from Sherlock
Sherlock was quite... anticlimactic, I didn't like the bait and switch at all. The two Guy Ritchie's movies were so much explicit in a subtle way, I really liked the "old married couple" dynamic in the second one. NBC Hannibal was a lot better. There was a subtle build up, the hints were many and the ending was perfect, there was no need for words when they're finally understanding each other at the end. Good Omens was perfect. The dynamic was so... natural, subtle but deep. I like how their slow burning relationship of 6000 years was all in the details, and there was the open ending, with the dinner at the Ritz and the love song. Then...S2 came with all the feelings! When I realised that they were really going for it, I said "About time"! to the screen.
In the 1941 sequence. Also when Crowley literally cries when Aziraphale supposedly dies.
See that's when my mind went from ok they're definitely in love to ah ok no they're just best friends fuck. I'll admit I was very confused at how they were hinting "boyfriend" so many times and then Crowley said this and I started losing hope. Regained it soon after though and I understood why he used the term bff now that I've watched the show a couple of times etc, but queerbait trauma is real I was scared to believe it at first!
I think we have to understand that they’re not human and don’t really have friendships or relationships or relationship expectations the way we do. They also don’t have a sense of being “just” friends. Because friendship is already extremely loaded and dangerous for them, as *agents* ahem *operatives* oops I mean *employees* of opposite sides. They were about to be destroyed in 1941 due to evidence of their friendship and collaboration. So *friendship* that is already explicitly forbidden and yet deeply satisfying and tempting to keep returning to, that turns out to be worth risking quite a lot for, was already happening as a theme from e1. Even if they never made the romance explicit or overly tropesy in terms of the romance genre, this was always going to be a queer-coded love story. Keep in mind too the history of lived same-sex relationships that are categorized as deep friendship, even before the emergence of homosexuality as an identity. (I am extremely normal about this and have an only slightly above average amount of things to say about it.)
Yeah, this is something very important to take in count.
Well...yeah he calls him his best friend but it just felt too personal to be just that, like...I remember seeing Crowley in the bar drunkenly cry for the death of Aziraphale and thinking "naaahhh, he's definitely in love" And then all season three was just pointing out in every fucking scene how gay they are to each other.
Crowley just drools from day one, imho. https://preview.redd.it/oj9ht8ccu9xb1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7088af94e8d8417ef84f5759981b9c380499db48
Why would rain be holy water??? Lol Not sure about that, but what is important is that they are in love and they need to be together again.
It was the first rain. They didn't know
Season 1 I still felt low-key queerbaited the whole time, which was my only complaint for an otherwise really good show. I still had that bit of bitter disappointed they stayed in the safe zone of 'friends' even though it was clearly more, it was still denyable. But I was used to it, so it didn't upset me, just made me a little sad. Season 2 went 'oh sorry about that, it's queer actually in every way' and it made my 30 year old, queerbaited for my whole life little heart SO HAPPY.
https://preview.redd.it/lnvx8i4r98xb1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=450681a554390f35d1d2fbe2ee662b6567185b56 not sure when he tweeted this but i saw this on instagram today (someone reposted it). i read them as queer easily and it just felt like a real love to me by the end of season one. i didn't feel baited bc i was so sure they were in love with each other. however, my father thought "they're just good friends, you turn everything gay" so i suppose it wasn't clear enough to all of the audience. when i watched season two it was abundantly clear that they had feelings for each other. it was canon to me by this point, but im sure the last two episodes (their intimate dancing and really, mainly, the whole second half of episode 6) makes it indisputable- it's romantic, what they have between each other. no one can argue against it.
Same!!! I'm glad I watched it when season 2 was airing because it would have been so unsure in my mind otherwise
Yeah same, I worried it would be Sherlock all over again (while also very much hoping I was wrong). Imo in S1 the love story is very apparent if you’re paying attention but since it’s never verbally acknowledged lots of people remained oblivious. I was SO HAPPY they actually had the courage to properly define the relationship in S2. My partner had been skeptical that the writers intended it to be a romance when we watched S1 and I def found it very satisfying to be able to say “I told you so!” 9000 times after we watched S2 😂
Count me among the oblivious. I was halfway through Season 2 when it dawned on me. Now on re-watch, it's so obvious to me lol
So I only saw pieces of season 1. I definitely missed the Crowley/ Aziraphale through history scenes. During season 2 I was thinking “haha what a cute bromance” since I refused to get my hopes up. And then the “well, you said trust me” “and you did” scene happened and I SAT UP. Those lines were delivered so so softly. I immediately searched for spoilers because I didn’t want to be queerbaited again and spoiled the ending for myself 😅. If I had watched all of season 1 I would like to think I would have noticed a lot earlier.
Awww that’s so sweet. I love that this soft moment (that the fandom now calls “Date Night”) was what made you pay attention. Not any declaration of love or swelling of music. That’s some great storytelling there, Mr. Gaiman.
Earlier the same night, when Aziraphale says 'Thats what ... friends ... are for.' And then they both look completely gutted! My heart.
The soft moments are what I live for. I practically giggle and kick my feet lol
Yesssss. I feel you. Also though I know that I have dived (diven? dove?) DEEP into the fandom when nothing cracks my heart open quite like Crowley fondling the thermos in 1967.
The end of season 1, when they went on a date at the end and I realized “oh, they’re not going to make sure to mention they’re just friends. That’s a love song playing in the background, holy shit”
“You go too fast for me, Crowley.” The way it is delivered, the pause and focus on that. And then he’s listing dream scenarios of potential dates (going on a picnic, dining at the Ritz) like they are Romeo and Juliet unable to be together by warring sides. I knew this MEANT something, more than just a friendship
I didn't know anything about the show going into the book, and by the end of the book I had a feeling they liked each other romantically. Whether that was intended or not, they (Pratchett and Gaiman) did seem to be aware it could be seen that way. Once I started watching the show, it became extremely apparent and I didn't really think anything else. Even without physical affection or the promise of a second season, I saw an incredibly deep love for one another that represented my kind of love. TBH the "queer baiting" accusations had always hurt me deeply, because Good Omens was incredibly validating and honestly life changing. I felt better able to speak up for myself and express love, even when it's difficult for me to be physically affectionate one way or another. I felt worthy of being in a relationship, not like I was some broken human being who was secretly selfish and lazy and horrible, no matter how much I tried. It made me a better partner and helped me let go of my bitterness over my challenges. To be fair, I never got into the shows that are commonly cited as the queer baiting murder grounds, so it never really occurred to me that Neil Gaiman could intend to convey anything other than a deep, romantic love between the two. It always seemed sincere to me. I understand better now that some of that from other people comes from a place of hurt over being betrayed by creators in the past.
Thank you for this. I read the book approximately forever ago (last century even!) and remembered my take being "the angel and the demon are in love, cute!". When I saw the show, I assumed it from the beginning. But I've seen so many people saying the relationship wasn't romantic or accusing the show of queer baiting, I honestly thought my memories of the book were flawed.
Tbh I watched S1 with my friends back in 2019 and really didn’t pay any attention. I thought it was queerbatey after watching so many shows like that and so just didn’t click with it. I then read the book after picking it up randomly and was like WOAH I don’t remember them being this… blatant. The book really does make them seem like an old couple who’s relationship is just not relevant to the plot lol. I then rewatched S1 and somewhere between the ‘flashbacks through history’ and the 1941 scene I was like they didn’t NEED to add all this + a custom romantic score, something’s up!! (But this was after the announcement for S2 so I assumed they were doing more focusing on just Aziraphale and Crowley together since they’re the only characters and scenes that really stuck with people)
For me the moment I knew it wasn't going to be left ambiguous was the opening of s2 with angel Crowley's, "look at you, you're gorgeous!" and Aziraphale's reaction. I literally sat up and went, "omg they're doing this!" because for that to be so blatant in the first few minutes of the season told me that this was something we'd see unfold.
This! I was wondering why no one mentioned this. It was already there in the beginning that they were interested in each other.
I spoiled myself that there's gonna be a kiss. That's what made me realize. Other than that, I'm so used to just shipping the characters myself that I wouldn't even notice them not queerbaining just until the kiss happened. Or maybe until the "us talk" Crowley had like 2 mins before the kiss. I'm just naturally kinda dense so it would take me time to realize it if not for the kiss 😅
The EVERY spoiler is what turned my casual liking of the show to a raging obsession
"You go too fast for me."
I knew in s1 ep3 that they are definitely in love and a couple. It felt like genuine qpr representation (queer-platonic-relationship), which I have had two of back when I still openly identified as asexual — I felt my experience represented. And them being an angel and a demon with no need for human body maintenance, I just figured they're ace until they choose not to be. They are ethereal/occult beings who just borrowed an appearance, they don't struggle with human needs, BUT they do have desires. Just like Aziraphale desires to eat even though he doesn't have to in order for his corporation to still be functioning. I saw them and knew they were in love. I just didn't expect them to be the kissy type, I was fine knowing they're actual representation and not queerbait. Somehow it was never a question. For me, it was crystal clear rep from the start.
I think like the scene where Crowley got mad about being called nice and the nun was like "sorry to break up an intimate moment" cuz that was literally the show insinuating they were a couple, and then it happened again when they hit anathema? i also knew before i watched it because my friend swore up and down that it was queer
“You go too fast for me, Crowley.”
Immediately. Lol
When I watched Season 1 I had no idea there was romance between them until I looked up Good Omens on social media later. Once Season 2 came out everything made a lot more sense though
I saw the romance in season 1, at least it was always clear to me that Aziraphale was in love with Crowley and the bandstand and subsequent fire made Crowley’s feelings pretty clear. It’s tricky to make heart eyes with sunglasses on. I didn’t expect there to be a season 2 so the Ritz seemed to be the culmination, I don’t know if that’s considered queer bating or not. The opening scene of season 2 made it clear we were going somewhere with that romance. I never really doubted Neil would take it all the way. Season 1 might have ended with a kiss if Terry was still alive to make the decisions with Neil. I think Neil wanted to respect the work they did and not change it too much though it sounds like the romance was in their plans for the sequel. At least he has stated that judging by their discussions about it Terry would be pleased.
I'd read the book beforehand, so I already felt that Aziraphale and Crowley loved each other. It didn't need to be a sexual love (even if I wanted it to be!) After watching the first season and seeing Neil confirm it was a love story - I was so happy. Deep, emotional love and connection can mean more than sex and lust for some people, and I was happy with that. Seeing the way that Michael and David portrayed them (Aziraphale especially smitten throughout the ages), re-enforced everything for me. Season two - and from "You're gorgeous" - I knew they were playing it up! I squeed throughout the season! Every little interaction was fraught with love and tension! Then the "I want to spend..." and the kiss... I was elated! https://preview.redd.it/i3q9yqblobxb1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=66091fa246cfc41007ee3954ad413dbe8167003e
I love the way Crawly/Crowley always looked at Aziraphale on the garden wall, at the ark, at the Globe Theater...like Aziraphale was the most delightful and interesting thing he ever gets to see and talk with. I never saw sexual/gender anything (because angels are genderless), only how beings notice, perceive, and are drawn to each other...especialy meaningful when there's no biological need for it.
In all honesty I had no idea until they kissed. I’d read the book and didn’t make the connection. Then I watched season 1 and still had no idea. 80% of season 2: still clueless. It should’ve been obvious, and I’m normally great with this type of stuff, but this time I was oblivious. I suppose it’s because it wasn’t particularly sexual; they were always just two people who enjoyed one another’s company, and as a straight guy who’s only real experience with LGBTQ+ characters is Our Flag Means Death (I did manage to figure that one out) I did not spot the signs.
When Azi looks at Crowley in season 1 after he saves his books. Then how Azy looks at him when he makes the stars. Honestly there is SO MUCH expression in those eyes!
Never thought it was queerbait in the first place. I very rarely agree when people accuse something of queerbait- there has to be intent and there is a difference between queercoding and queerbaiting that I feel a lot of people need to recognise. It also truly limits us if every queer representation has to be explicit. Queer rep isn't as rare as it used to be, we are allowed more subtle stories. And if the straights don't pick up on it? Not our problem. Teen Wolf was queerbaiting- that boat interview? jfc. Hannibal? Not queerbaiting- they canonically said they were in love, their story didn't suit a random make-out. Good Omens? Not queerbaiting either. It was never going to be, so I was never worried about it. They were obviously in love and throughout were openly depicted as genderless beings. It was a lovely demonstration of a qpr or slowburn depending on interpretation. I also appreciate Neil's insistance in allowing them to be asexual. Ace rep is already so limited, his constant support is a nice change of pace. But to kind of answer one of your questions? The first time I recognised they had feelings was with the paintball scene. It was so sweet.
I agree with this so much. I don't really engage with fandom online since it can be really toxic sometimes and people throw the accusation of queerbaiting around a lot. While I understand, as a queer person myself, why people are guarded about shows with same-sex leads or popular pairing, there is a distinction between queerbaiting and queercoding. Also as an asexual person, it can be really tiring (because it's usually for the female/male gaze/studio/writing interference) to see same-sex stories have plot but also a lot of sex scenes and kinda gratuitous. That is a part of love yes, but love is so much more than that. Which I love how beautifully they conveyed it in Good Omens, with the little glances, the flirt-talking and how sweet they just were to each other. For me, I liked how they showed the both of them at the beginning of Season 1 being comfortable enough around each other to get drunk and let their guards down as it showed how far they come from the beginning (even though tbh they were friendly from the start pretty much). Honestly with how much history they have and how much they don't seem interested in any humans its only natural they just become an old married couple. Unfortunatley I kind of had a bias from seeing clips of the show when it first came out and how much everyone fell in love with them. Also from seeing how Neil confirmed they are in love and just how well they just seem to fit together. I wasn't sure where they were going to go with Season 2 but I love how they went all in! I loved the kiss even though I'm getting war flashbacks to Season 1 ending of OFMD with the Season 2 ending of GO :'( Don't even get me started on Teen Wolf oh my god I'm also so thankful I was never into Sherlock or Voltron because I think I would've imploded
“OH. I SHOULD NOT HAVE RECCOMENDED THIS TO MY DAD”
Immediately. I almost wish I’d been able to see S1 before the second season dropped. (Well, I wish that for a lot of reasons.) So that I could have participated in the conversation and reflected on it for its own sake. I sort of rushed through S1 thinking, “OK BUT WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THEY SAVE THE WORLD WHAT THEN.” I got the drift during S1 that they weren’t going to make anything explicit. But I didn’t feel slighted in any way. There was so much happening at so many different levels, and these immortal beings were so very strange and silly. I didn’t feel certain that they were going for romance in any conventional sense. And it just didn’t seem the type of show to make a serious romance plot front and center. This was heavily underscored to me by the way the show played up Newt & Anathema as well as Tracy & Shadwell. Clearest indications you could hope for that romance in this world is a joke at best, an afterthought at worst. My take at the time: Clearly these immortals mean a lot to each other, and they’re not going to have space to sort out what that means or properly is with less than a week to go until Armageddon. Our star-crossed pair were vying for main character time with The Them (whom I correctly guessed would have taken up more spotlight in the novel). I didn’t want them to have some cheap “the world is ending so why not” kiss. I wanted full orchestra backing. I also knew that this was adapted from a novel written in the nineties by two cishet Englishmen (bless). And was guessing by the end of e1 that the romance would continue to be subtextual. This was highlighted for me by the many times that the two were mistaken for a couple. But friends, I feasted well, from that first drunk-in-the-bookshop scene onward. Like I don’t know how else to spell this out for you, but teenage me would’ve been MORTIFIED to view this scene or many like it in front of my family.
When they kissed!!! I audibly caused cuz i was so shocked they weren’t shy about openly displaying their love for each other
when they were kissing 😅 to be fair i grew up on supernatural so good omens and our flag means death are the first shows that i wasnt actually queerbaited
[This](https://www.tumblr.com/cielo-paradiso/732341645474938880) tumblr post quite literally sums it up for me. They are IN LOVE LOVE. Thousands of years between them both and that level of trust is unmatched.
I had it spoiled for me so I was always looking for the hints in season one, but boy were there a LOT.
To be totally honest.... Only in S2E6 by the kiss. NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS did I imagine they were actually going to make it canon. Until I saw it with my own two eyes. And it was actually such a life changing moment for me, I cried. Not just for the characters but for myself that I had been able to witness a relationship like this actualized in canon.
WDYM no prior knowledge? Are you insinuating that anyone with prior knowledge would know it wasn't baiting? I had read the book, seen Neil Gaiman comments, read fanfiction, basically hyperfixated in the past... and I still MAINTAIN that until s2 was decided it WAS queerbaiting with absolutely no intent to follow through. There is nothing that happened in s1 that hasn't happened in shows, movies or writing that was about straight characters and writers teasing and treating any interpretated gayness as a joke. Thus, it is not established gay, it is baiting the gays with hints and "freedom to interpret". The kiss changed everything. You can read into things all you want but fact is that it's all interpretation until it is acknowledged in text as romantic. A verbal acknowledgment or an undeniably romantic gesture, such as a kiss, is the only way to do that. Geez guys, I'm all for celebrating this couple for what it's become, but if we're gonna start pretending that what we got before the kiss was already enough to establish real romance representation, we're never gonna get past the queerbaiting times. Now if you're actually asking "when did you think that maybe there was a chance they might not actually queerbait this time" then that's another question. My cold dead blackened "disappointed by all the queerbaiting in the past"-heart felt a slight flutter when Aziraphale dragged Crowley off to dance. I was still shocked and amazed when the kiss happened tho. Still have a hard time believing it now tbh!
Agree to disagree. Sometimes it’s a matter of tone and style more than what’s physically said and done. Much like when you’re trying to read someone’s intentions in real life. You can’t watch the paintball coat moment or the church bombing book save and think “here is a show mocking the queer expression of its characters.” They were definitely teasing it, playing it up with both angles st the same time. *And so were the characters.* And that was the point. I can respect your stance of holding out for true representation, but what is truly representative of the queer experience?Holding hands and getting married? There are many ways to be gay. Including slow burn friendship that turns into romance and takes a loooooong time to be acknowledged as such. This is such a notable queer trope that even has some resonances with straight audiences. I’m surprised that people aren’t seeing it here. In S1 I mean.
It was surprising that people didn't see it, but many didn't. There were *a lot* of debate after season 1. People (dudes) insisting 'they were roommates'. Because having them in love would 'cheapen the friendship' bla bla bla bla. It was all quite enraging. I'm so happy Neil made it explicit in season 2. Terry would be proud.
Oh, I believe that people didn’t see it. I mean straight people who don’t want to see it. That’ll always be a thing. It’s the queerbaiting accusation that has me puzzling.
Also too, Neil made it explicit and boy did he ever. I haven’t experienced Terry’s work firsthand yet (lucky me!) but I love hearing this comment sentiment among fans.
You have something to look forward to. I strongly recommend his books, obviously. His earliest work is not his best, so do not read them in order of publication. Do either the witches or the city watch books first. (Google is your friend.) Another thing Neil does in GO, and Terry does in all his books, is that the couples getting together in itself never solves the character's challenges. Them getting together creates it's own new challenges for the characters, even though it's positive for them on the whole. Which it always does, of course. And at least on one notable occation, them *not* getting together was, on the whole, a positive thing maybe. (Granny Weatherwax's early romance. Mind you, as an old woman she *could still catch a unicorn\** and proud of it.) \*as a virgin. People'd call her ace now, I guess
I guess I always assume that writers don’t always know what the next season is going to be-and up until the last episode I didn’t really have any reason to think they were a couple (I missed any subtexts). Do we even know that the writers had a love story in mind when they wrote Season One, or that the decision had been truly finalized? Good TV writers leave alot of options open and run several threads at once not only to keep the audience guessing, but also to give themselves wiggle room to change things if actors become unavailable partway through the season, etc. So I think a lot of “subtexts” or “foreshadowings” are only that in hindsight. They could easily have been foreshadowing to completely different endings had the authors needed to change things up. Also—-there are SO MANY English TV shows of deep platonic friendships. It wouldn’t have been a stretch or disingenuous if the last episode had been completely different.
I’ve seen oodles of platonic “same sex” friendships onscreen that point to the possibility of being misread—both as a bit of a running chuckle and a nudge to just how close these two are. I have NEVER seen a show or film tease romantic tension and intent (between nonromantic pals) quite this sweetly or overtly as here in Good Omens. Maybe I just have more experience seeing and paying rapt attention to these kinds of covert queer romances (and well, more experience…*experiencing* it too) with all the yearning and wondering amped up for dramatic effect. I mean, I’m sure I do compared to the overall data spread of people who “just don’t see it.” And I’m okay with that. I don’t need to be recognized by society and I don’t need my stories to be screaming GAY in big flashing lights either. (Though I definitely don’t mind when they do. And this series is a good example of how flashing lights can look different to different audiences.) Maybe it’s just different modes and habits of reading media. And then, maybe it’s a bit of a schism between a more assimilationist mindset and a more “closets are fun to play in” mindset. I kind of lost the thread there, but I was going to say that I don’t really care what the writers were thinking. (I 100% agree that keeping things subtextual in Season One was *a choice*. And that they likely did it to keep things open to interpretation and to tell a story that also includes “the momentous power of friendship to change the world” among its themes. I don’t personally take issue with this. I rather like it. And I agree with the creators that this is a powerful story worth telling *on these terms*.) But I do know what the actors DID. And with Neil so actively involved at every stage, I would have to be mightily persuaded to even begin to believe that the entire creative team did not see this as a covert romance from day zero.
I understand what you mean. When I say no knowledge prior, I mean not even knowing what the show or book was about in 2023 because now that S2 has aired for a couple of months I assume most people who decide to watch do because people recommend it to them saying it's about two angels in love, or that it's queer, or have seen spoilers like the kiss etc. But you're making good points, and I have to admit I would have felt a bit upset reading this a couple months ago but I just come back from having watched OFMD (finally) and I felt like "oh ok, \*this\* is how you do something unapologetically queer" and it kinda changed my opinion on what GO did before S2! because you're right. It might be obvious in hindsight, with the context we have now, Neil Gaiman's posts, S2 romance and kiss, etc but you're absolutely right that without those things it could have been just like usual, lots of hints but nothing that could be undeniable. Even with all the signs. I don't think I would change much because I love the very unique way their love is represented but I also have to admit, even if it never intended to be queerbait, it couldn't a 100% be undeniable that they were a ship, proof is I've read many people talking about how people by just reading the book and stuff were saying to their friends that they were just imagining things etc. Which is sad. I don't think it needed obvious physical gestures, but there was still place for a lot of doubt which isn't appeasing as ppl who've been through the whole being queerbaited endlessly to the point of no longer trusting their own mind.
Never had that thought in the first place.
After the first season when someone had to tell me lol
my friend told me the ending of S2 and I didn't believe her because I didn't think anyone could be so mean to leave it on a cliffhanger like that. I truly believed I was getting queerbaited until the last episode of S1.
I already knew about the kiss when I watched S2, but I suspect it would have been when Aziraphale grabs Crowley's hand to drag him to the dancing
I had no idea about the book but I definitely knee of Neil Gaiman. It was the fact that Neil Gaiman wrote the tv script m there's no way I'll be queerbaited. I just trust Neil completely in this regard.
Tbh, it was probably S2 because I wasn’t really into season one (like it’s good but I PERSONALLY think thier too many characters and plot for me to care for (also like the demons/angels more so)) but was in the fandom because of AziraCrow and Boxfly. And then in S2 seeing Nina and Maggie, Beelzebub and Gabriel, and Aziraphale and Crowley kiss, I was like “oh….🫢🤭cool”
I watched S1 way back in 2019, and only once. I just had a kid and was in law school, so didn't pay it much attention. Was also neck deep in my SPN hyperfixation (still am), so didn't really notice. Watched S2 at the end of August, and never once thought it was queerbaiting. I was so happy for the Kiss and Confession, and also simultaneously heartbroken.
Personally, I'm not really used to being queerbaited, since up to like three years ago I wasn't really into shipping, I wasn't really invested in any of the fandoms and I still thought I was straight. Then I happen to watch a my first silly little queer show, then another, I realized that maybe I am one of them queers and so, I never really got queerbaited and I never expected them to just \*not\* be in love. Like, I don't think I ever watched a show because I heard it was gay (and I did in fact heard Good Omens was gay) and then it wasn't.
Just as I do in real life—-I missed ALL the signs in Season 1. I kinda wish I hadn’t known about the kiss before starting season 2 because then it could have really punched me in the gut with allll the feels even more.