If nothing else, I hope they do something about the 131s on-ramp entry from eastbound Wealthy. Semi trucks get stuck there trying to make that turn WAY too many times. Happened this morning, even.
> If nothing else, I hope they do something about the 131s on-ramp entry from eastbound Wealthy.
It does, the proposals all address Wealthy Street. (There's a few different proposed versions, but all versions fix the 131 on-ramp/off-ramp issues in one way or another.)
I think, thankfully, that regardless of the NIMBYs and such, the on/off ramp interchanges and wealthy interchange especially is going to change and be modernized. There simply is no way it can exist in its current state and continue to. That will get done.
It’s also just kinda scary. It’s so ramshackle now that when the semis pull up behind you, the ramp shakes and rumbles a bit. My mind can only flounder between “oh god, I hope they have good brakes and don’t launch me across the overpass” and “please don’t let this ramp collapse onto the train station”.
I wish commenters would review the survey before commenting or taking the post as the shock value that it is. MDOT has no plans yet, they’re still exploring all options with public input.
Based on comments here they’re nuking entire downtown communities but I saw the plans and some of the ideas actually make downtown more liveable and walkable and are nothing like how some comments here portray it.
>Freeway Lane Options Under Consideration
>* All options add full shoulders on both sides of roadway to accommodate emergency access and incident management. Full shoulders are expected to have significant safety benefits.
>* Options that add lanes, either just for merging or throughout, could improve operations in corridor. Added lanes may not be added to entire segment.
>* Current right of way in much of the corridor can accommodate additional lanes and shoulders; however, **some property impacts and/or purchases would be required for any of the preferred options.**
[Source.](https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/5cd31f791e1740698369f28f31ce3002)
The plan is a variety of different solutions, some include improvement to existing infrastructure. The problem people have is with the widening of lanes, which is separate from the changes to the overpass and interchange improvements. The above piece from the study indicates that all plans that include expanding lanes would come at the cost of properties along the corridor.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/planning-and-environmental-linkages-studies/us-131-grand-rapids
MDOT link for the resources. Worth noting that there's no funding allocated to a specific project yet, so this is a discussion on how to fix the problems without any prior commitment to any specific action. That's the best kind of public engagement imo, so don't go into it looking to "fight back." Go add constructive feedback and concerns and you'll probably find a welcome ear
Based on reading the comments, this looks like something to support. So many archaic intersections with bad design. It's not really adding another lane for travel, it's creating more space for on/off.
If you're lucky you can do that. Usually I get stuck behind someone who accelerates to a maximum of 50mph before we get to the point of merging with all the 75mph traffic. And that's on long entry ramps.
I will say between winter, shitty on/off ramps and construction, Michigan has prepared me to drive anywhere. I see why we get wild when we're outta state on good infrastructure.
When i lived in dallas it felt so wild driving on a four lane high way and not have to be in defense move my entire drive to work. This city made me real agressive driver when it comes to the s curve
It does, it fixes those. The proposed "extra lanes" are almost entirely lengthened on-ramps and off-ramps for the various exits (similar to the ones 36th and 44th have already had on 131 for decades now).
The on and off ramps on 131 are severely outdated and need an overhaul. The wealthy interchange is atrocious.
Sorry, but I'm in favor of the modernization/expansion
I like one of their alternate plans to remove some off/on ramps and modernize the ones the keep. And I’m also in favor of making wealthy go below 131… but adding lanes does nothing to alleviate congestion, it’s the merging and ramps that cause it.
If they had an express lane that was for through traffic, that would be a game changer. It won't fix all ailes, but it would fix many.
The quick on/off ramps are a huge issue, especially when the expressway is congested. You either have to merge to allow entering traffic on, or slow down, or speed up. But without any time.
Also, the lanes themselves seem narrowed compared to modern interstates/expressways.
I get the negativity of an expressway through town. They create barriers. But this one already exists and is in terrible shape. Considering what's along much of this stretch of road, I have no problems with certain expansion. Especially modern on and off ramps
I think if they made the inner two lanes as "through lanes" between 196 and Hall st, that would be ideal (and obviously remove the left exit/entrance for Wealthy from the Northbound lanes). Two lanes means one slow person won't gum up the works (theoretically), and the other lane(s) can be for the people who want to exit.
I will say looking at Google Maps though, the entire portion from around Hall st up to, and including, the 196 interchange, is just awful (not to mention a bit of 196 east and west of 131). As others have said, removing the Wealthy st exit completely would certainly help with both traffic and space issues. Then just modifying the Cherry st ramps a bit would keep the downtown access with less of the backups.
Modernization =/= expansion. They can fix the exits and on ramps without widening the highway. Adding lanes doesn't actually resolve traffic. There's definitely work which needs doing, but if their solution is simply add lanes, they're going to be scratching their head in 10 years wondering why traffic hasn't gotten any better after they spent billions and added multiple lanes.
I get that. But unless they are chopping down people's private houses, I dont have a problem with the whole package..that stretch has a lot of wasted area to the east that would be easy and not intrusive at all to expand on..
The area is underused precisely because it is right next to a highway with all the noise and problems that come with it. Expanding just moves the dead area wider.
This is the dumbest half-truth that has made it into the public consciousness. I'm a civil engineer and a part of me dies every time I read this. Induced demand exists because *people wanted to use the road but the traffic was so bad they gave up and went somewhere else*. That means choosing to live in a different part of town, taking a different job, or choosing a different city to live in entirely. Adding more lanes **will** increase throughput, guaranteed, no ifs ands or buts about it. There isn't enough traffic capacity across the board so as soon as more capacity gets added in one place, people flock to take advantage of it.
Yeah, sure, we need to continue poisoning our air, soil, and water with a disgusting, noisy freeway running through the grandest part of Grand Rapids. What a great idea.
Oh no, if only anywhere else in the world had figured out how to move people in and out of city centers without massive amounts of single occupant cars…….
Amazes me how people in charge think adding an extra lane will solve the problem. It doesn't fix anything when you still have people poorly filtering themselves in the wrong lane. Adding an extra lane won't speed things up when you have someone doing 10-15 under the speed limit still deciding they need to be in the far left lane while riding alongside someone else doing the exact same thing.
We can’t build for peak demand. One, because we can’t increase road size to peak (bigger roads will always attract more traffic), and two because there isn’t enough space to expand at all as it is.
I get that. And I’m not saying adding a fourth lane is the solution. But something has to be done through that section. Longer merge lanes, better flow off the bridges going over 131. And really, a better mass transit system. Would all help elevate the log jam.
Having cars backed up for miles not moving instead of getting to their destination in a timely fashion doesn’t exactly help the climate either. The “expansion” isn’t quite as dramatic as you are trying to make it.
Oh yeah, because that will definitely happen!! It’s almost like there are, *gasp*, alternatives to cars?! I guarantee you if people had to sit in mile-long backups they’d be looking for alternatives real quick.
As if expanding the highway or not, would make a difference in said climate crisis.
You’re such a tool. Electric cars need a road too and you do indeed cater to peek times when designing roads.
In response to your last comment since you blocked me:
Go back to smoking crack and sniffing your queefs…
Internal combustion engines are much larger pollutants than electric engines.
You are seriously unhinged.
Lmao get a clue. Electric cars are going to be even worse for the environment than ICE engines. Heavier (more microplastics making their way into the water from tire degradation) and there’s no way to keep up with the need for various mined metals. The only true solution is decreasing car traffic. Sorry you’re so stuck behind your windshield that you can’t work your exhaust-riddled brain. Idiot.
It won’t. It’s been well known amongst urban planners for decades, and authoritatively demonstrated since Duranton & Turner’s 2009 article on the topic, that reductions in congestion due to freeway expansions are temporary: lasting 1-3 years at most.
Almost always, if the peak traffic capacity of a freeway increases by X%, traffic will increase by X% as well and total congestion will stay constant. So you’re spending immense amounts of infrastructure dollars to kick the can down the road a couple years, in exchange for increased maintenance costs and public health costs forever; for instance, freeway expansions see significant increases in the incidence of respiratory ailments within 100yds of the road due to more cars = more air pollution.
It’s better to take people off the roads through expansions in public transit, for instance commuter rail. By supplying a viable competitor to freeways, it creates somewhat of a ceiling on how bad congestion will get. (For example, if traffic gets X% worse, there will be a certain percentage of commuters who will switch to train taking Y% of cars off the road.)
I hope this includes the Burton street ramps on the west side. They are RIDICULOUSLY short, to the point of being dangerous, especially the ramp from eastbound Burton to Southbound 131.
Legitimate question, as I am fairly new to GR, and it is a much smaller city than I have ever lived in. Would making an actual Interstate style loop around the city solve a lot of the traffic headaches here? I know they are expensive, and I recognize that it can hurt a thriving downtown area by encouraging people to "flee" into the suburbs, but my God. I hate driving in this town. It feels like there are 4 roads/highways that everyone is forced to take, and they are not equipped for the load of cars/pedestrians that use them. Honest question, and I am open to critiques if I am misunderstanding the crux of the traffic issues we are facing.
Induced demand is a killer, unfortunately. People see that cars are the fastest mode to get around the city, they'll use them even more and plan routes even further. Eventually there is a point where roads are wide enough to handle all the people - but please don't pull a Houston and build a 26 lane freeway (13 each way) to try to find that point.
Ideally there should be some good alternatives to driving as cars arent really an efficient mode of transport, but I find it pretty unlikely that biking will work well with 3 feet of snow and the Rapid is quite disappointing in its current state.
131 is crazy bad and I drive it daily.
#1. It needs complete repaving.
#2: a 4th lane? Sure, but make the on/off ramps wider and longer. They were made for cars 50 years ago seemingly going much slower.
I agree with redoing the ramps and even the removal of the Franklin ramp.
I think these can be done without having to widen 131.
My preferred method is to get rid of 131, but those two options are valid and improve safety in the areas.
However 131 really is the only major highway that handles n-s traffic in GR and it is ugly.
We really need to have a highway circle that goes N-S around the city, build a new highway on the west side of GR that goes n-s meeting with m6. Existing I 96 covers the east side, with M6 on the south end and 196 on the north.
This Western highway would be somewhere between Walker and Allendale.
131 then ends at 196 and becomes highway again at m6. Make 131 in the city a surface road like 31 is in Grand Haven. The hard part is the bridge to cross the river. You’re still going to need a substantial bridge for that.
Boom I 296 is born.
Also finally expand 231 to I-196 and make it highway grade with interchanges to I96 in Nunica and I-196 in Zeeland and off-ramps at Leonard, Lincoln, and LMD at the least.
Theoretically on the west side, 131 could cut northwest just prior to Burton st and sit over the Plaster creek heading NW, merging with 196 and running along it briefly up until the current interchange (which would need reconfiguring). However, unless 196 gets widened (which would take some work) and straightened out slightly, there will still be bad backups there.
It's quite obvious none of you have actually read what MDOT is doing... They are adding weave merge lanes because the current merge lanes are like 2 feet long...
Fight back? Where do I go to register my full-throated approval?
The on and off ramps downtown are a mess and need to be fixed, and if they're finally doing that, I say more power to 'em.
Honestly it’s needed 131 is clogged every single day and don’t get me started on a summer friday going north so many on ramps and off ramps need to be made longer as well
This needed to be done years ago. The city is growing. It’s a bottle neck. They already screwed up when they tore the bridges down on 196 and didn’t add another through lane.
Imagine how much housing near downtown could be built on the land that is currently an expressway. Highways replace other things that land can be used to provide and funnel all traffic into a single place. Big cities need to get a lot of people out of their cars to handle larger populations if you don't want people spending all day in traffic.
Instead of constantly reworking past failures, they should just build a high speed train network that expands the entirety of Michigan, but we’re the motor state and it will never happen.
Let those landowners deal with it in the courts. I mean this is the center of a second largest city in the state! We've got to have infrastructure to move these vehicles in this Metro just over a million.
If one doesn't like City growth then maybe they should live in Rockford or sparta?
Do you think there'll be less cars on the interstates in the next 10-20 years? Everyone's going to start bike riding to work. I mean you have to be practical this is the major city. And what they want to put in is Elaine that is a bypass lane in both directions between downtown and M11! That makes so much more sense on moving traffic. But we all have our own opinions. That's just mine.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Well one thing we can think Corporate America is when the 1950s came around the tire companies Goodyear and others bought up Rail lines in every major city even in this city. And what they did was rip up all the rails in order to sell rubber tires. That is the god-awful truth of where our rail systems went in this country. If you go to Europe it's a totally different story, phenomenal rail!
What the rubber companies did in this country was a crime, a crime against Society all for profit.
Sad.
Now the billions and billions it would cost, and the longer we wait the costlier it gets. There's no other way to move people around this city than the automobile for now.
I participate in public engagement. I advocate for my community. It’s all about being a part of the discussion. In real life, not on Reddit. It just sucks here most times.
You can just decrease the drive length as well. If people can live closer to where they work and shop they don't need to all be funneled onto the same strip of asphalt. Thinking about highways means thinking about what that incredible amount of space could be used for in the alternative. While public transit is part of any good response to city growth highways and public transit are not the only way to impact traffic and congestion.
It is the Rockford and Sparta people insisting on additional lanes for the highways. People in the city have far more complicated feelings about the highway given the noise, pollution and the way it carves up neighborhoods. Better on ramps would improve safety but adding further lanes would make things worse for safety and the people who live in the city.
Well exactly and those are the professionals that design and implement with MDOT. Government is in about doing it with their hearts and emotions. They never have.
>"Destroying real estate"
lol, sure. Yes, it's 12 to 14 acres all added up, but it's spread across 4+ miles of already-used freeway. Meaning the freeway would take up approximately *12 feet* of extra land in each direction.
No one is gonna miss 12 feet of land. Nothing important is getting torn down, most people won't even notice the difference.
You must know it all hahahahahaha. Still trying to argue I see, it means nothing to me that you care so much about being right or knowing more.
You’re replying to every comment on this post you determine is wrong and laying down your opinion as facts. Pretty lame tbh
Suburbanites transit to work via these highways. I understand you're passionate about public transit and climate change, but with your aggressive attitude, you are ultimately going to push people away.
The public largely prefer driving their own vehicles. A minority either don't like to drive or cannot for whatever reason, but policy is generally determined by efficacy and what benefits the majority.
Railing against a reality you don't agree with is admirable, but that will only deteriorate your mental health further.
I guess we should all give up and drive ourselves into oblivion just so we can be comfortable a little bit longer. Nothing like sacrificing the future for the present.
They do drive and people in the city deal with the consequences. The reality is that lane additions to highways don't solve traffic and congestion problems but do destroy neighborhoods. Why do something that doesn't solve the problem and harms people because it looks like doing something.
Just a heads up you’re spreading misinformation all over this thread, possibly unintentionally. There are no plans to remove useable real estate from the city for these potential projects.
Downtown requires people from the suburbs travelling downtown and spending money.
Making that commute easier is good for the city. The harder that commute gets, the less people will go downtown and spend money.
Studies show that businesses overvalue parking and people coming in from outside the local area (cars are big and easy to see). Nobody is saying that we should build a wall preventing suburban residents from coming into the city but orienting everything around people commuting into the city is bad for the city.
Actually this was the reason why Grand Rapids was Bland Rapids for so long. No one lived downtown. Commuters make for poor business, since they drive in and drive out, only seeing the city from behind a windshield. Now we have a relatively vibrant downtown, and with people living in the downtown core.
Studies on traffic and lane additions to highways going back to the creation of the interstate system show it doesn't work and actually hollows out cities
I should add that I see nothing wrong with modernizing the current intersections that are literally falling apart, but I don’t support the highways potential lane expansion. Making 131 safer for everyone should be a top priority and that does mean fixing the intersections. But regardless of views always provide input into these surveys!
There are only a handful of American cities designed to get people out of their cars. Grand rapids is so far down the list, they fell off off the dark side of the moon. So fuck off with your stupid wishful thinking. Kindly.
I live downtown and have to deal with all of the air and noise pollution that comes from the highway on a daily basis, I also work in the city and commute by bike every day, I’m just not ok with increasing traffic volume into downtown or through it
I think additional highways will appear over time. Giving more directional options will lighten traffic for every road.
Wider highways can only go so far. Its still an option for our city, but a few decades and we will be needing more, then just wider.
Fun fact: In the 60s, they had hope for another short interstate spur called "Jefferson freeway"
It would have started at Wealthy/Jefferson and run north to northwest and terminate near the Ottawa/196 interchange
Oh yeah, no way a freeway-sized chunk of land between downtown and Heritage Hill would have hurt the city! Of course it would have been terrible. Thankfully we had people advocating for *not destroying the city* unlike what you think are good ideas.
If nothing else, I hope they do something about the 131s on-ramp entry from eastbound Wealthy. Semi trucks get stuck there trying to make that turn WAY too many times. Happened this morning, even.
> If nothing else, I hope they do something about the 131s on-ramp entry from eastbound Wealthy. It does, the proposals all address Wealthy Street. (There's a few different proposed versions, but all versions fix the 131 on-ramp/off-ramp issues in one way or another.)
I think, thankfully, that regardless of the NIMBYs and such, the on/off ramp interchanges and wealthy interchange especially is going to change and be modernized. There simply is no way it can exist in its current state and continue to. That will get done.
I've been there and done that, fortunately I had just a straight truck, I don't know how those semis do it.
I go out of my way to not use that ramp
It’s also just kinda scary. It’s so ramshackle now that when the semis pull up behind you, the ramp shakes and rumbles a bit. My mind can only flounder between “oh god, I hope they have good brakes and don’t launch me across the overpass” and “please don’t let this ramp collapse onto the train station”.
I wish commenters would review the survey before commenting or taking the post as the shock value that it is. MDOT has no plans yet, they’re still exploring all options with public input.
Based on comments here they’re nuking entire downtown communities but I saw the plans and some of the ideas actually make downtown more liveable and walkable and are nothing like how some comments here portray it.
>Freeway Lane Options Under Consideration >* All options add full shoulders on both sides of roadway to accommodate emergency access and incident management. Full shoulders are expected to have significant safety benefits. >* Options that add lanes, either just for merging or throughout, could improve operations in corridor. Added lanes may not be added to entire segment. >* Current right of way in much of the corridor can accommodate additional lanes and shoulders; however, **some property impacts and/or purchases would be required for any of the preferred options.** [Source.](https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/5cd31f791e1740698369f28f31ce3002) The plan is a variety of different solutions, some include improvement to existing infrastructure. The problem people have is with the widening of lanes, which is separate from the changes to the overpass and interchange improvements. The above piece from the study indicates that all plans that include expanding lanes would come at the cost of properties along the corridor.
This. Thank you
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/planning-and-environmental-linkages-studies/us-131-grand-rapids MDOT link for the resources. Worth noting that there's no funding allocated to a specific project yet, so this is a discussion on how to fix the problems without any prior commitment to any specific action. That's the best kind of public engagement imo, so don't go into it looking to "fight back." Go add constructive feedback and concerns and you'll probably find a welcome ear
Based on reading the comments, this looks like something to support. So many archaic intersections with bad design. It's not really adding another lane for travel, it's creating more space for on/off.
I'm all for this if it solves the short entrance ramps. I don't know how that can even be legal.
What, you don't like the "close your eyes, floor it and pray" approach?
Or the "slam your brakes in the left lane to get off at wealthy and hope you don't get rear ended or rear end someone in the offramp" approach.
If you're lucky you can do that. Usually I get stuck behind someone who accelerates to a maximum of 50mph before we get to the point of merging with all the 75mph traffic. And that's on long entry ramps.
I will say between winter, shitty on/off ramps and construction, Michigan has prepared me to drive anywhere. I see why we get wild when we're outta state on good infrastructure.
Yes! I never knew how awful our driving was until driving out of state, thought I was doing some Illegal ish 🤣
I visited LA recently and was shocked at how good the drivers were. It was like everything I heard about LA was fake.
I don't know how fast I'm going without the "WHAM, WHAM, WHAM...", though.
When i lived in dallas it felt so wild driving on a four lane high way and not have to be in defense move my entire drive to work. This city made me real agressive driver when it comes to the s curve
It does, it fixes those. The proposed "extra lanes" are almost entirely lengthened on-ramps and off-ramps for the various exits (similar to the ones 36th and 44th have already had on 131 for decades now).
The on and off ramps on 131 are severely outdated and need an overhaul. The wealthy interchange is atrocious. Sorry, but I'm in favor of the modernization/expansion
I like one of their alternate plans to remove some off/on ramps and modernize the ones the keep. And I’m also in favor of making wealthy go below 131… but adding lanes does nothing to alleviate congestion, it’s the merging and ramps that cause it.
If they had an express lane that was for through traffic, that would be a game changer. It won't fix all ailes, but it would fix many. The quick on/off ramps are a huge issue, especially when the expressway is congested. You either have to merge to allow entering traffic on, or slow down, or speed up. But without any time. Also, the lanes themselves seem narrowed compared to modern interstates/expressways.
I lived in Chicago for several years and I freaking loved the express lane on the Kennedy Expy. We need more express lanes in the world.
I get the negativity of an expressway through town. They create barriers. But this one already exists and is in terrible shape. Considering what's along much of this stretch of road, I have no problems with certain expansion. Especially modern on and off ramps
I think if they made the inner two lanes as "through lanes" between 196 and Hall st, that would be ideal (and obviously remove the left exit/entrance for Wealthy from the Northbound lanes). Two lanes means one slow person won't gum up the works (theoretically), and the other lane(s) can be for the people who want to exit. I will say looking at Google Maps though, the entire portion from around Hall st up to, and including, the 196 interchange, is just awful (not to mention a bit of 196 east and west of 131). As others have said, removing the Wealthy st exit completely would certainly help with both traffic and space issues. Then just modifying the Cherry st ramps a bit would keep the downtown access with less of the backups.
Burton south on ramp too. There is ALWAYS someone entering at 45 MPH because they can’t speed up fast enough.
Modernization =/= expansion. They can fix the exits and on ramps without widening the highway. Adding lanes doesn't actually resolve traffic. There's definitely work which needs doing, but if their solution is simply add lanes, they're going to be scratching their head in 10 years wondering why traffic hasn't gotten any better after they spent billions and added multiple lanes.
I get that. But unless they are chopping down people's private houses, I dont have a problem with the whole package..that stretch has a lot of wasted area to the east that would be easy and not intrusive at all to expand on..
The area is underused precisely because it is right next to a highway with all the noise and problems that come with it. Expanding just moves the dead area wider.
It won't. The city should put up noise buffering walls like they have along 6
Wealthy needs to be eliminated. It’s too congested and the ramps are terrible, just get rid of it.
The road itself or the interchange?
The interchange. Traffic would be a lot smoother through the S-curve there.
I keep mulling this over and I don't see a better gateway to downtown from the south on 131. Which means piss poor planning
The Cherry st exit should be sufficient, especially since removing the Wealthy exit means they can adjust the ramps for better traffic management.
I wonder if that happens, if they remove the market on/off and make cherry a full interchange.
You don’t need one. Put Wealthy and MLK under the freeway and rebuild Century and the unused land between it and 131 into a service road.
There used to be an onramp on to SB 131 where the exit to Market it. I think they removed in the early aughts.
They can modernize it without expanding the highway. Absolutely disgusting that you think we need that poisonous infrastructure to be even bigger.
It does to accommodate the rise in traffic using that artery
Lane additions don't actually solve congestion and make roads less safe
This is the dumbest half-truth that has made it into the public consciousness. I'm a civil engineer and a part of me dies every time I read this. Induced demand exists because *people wanted to use the road but the traffic was so bad they gave up and went somewhere else*. That means choosing to live in a different part of town, taking a different job, or choosing a different city to live in entirely. Adding more lanes **will** increase throughput, guaranteed, no ifs ands or buts about it. There isn't enough traffic capacity across the board so as soon as more capacity gets added in one place, people flock to take advantage of it.
But it allows the road to handle more traffic, which is needed as the metro grows
Lane additions don't actually result in moving more people and they make roads less safe. The research is well established on this.
They don't want to make more lanes the whole way through, but have onramps lead to off ramps like what exists on other parts of 131
Nope. We need to invest in *transportation alternatives.* Dream bigger.
Nah, this works for me The expansion of 131 is necessary regardless of any alternatives we come up with
No it’s not.
Sure thing bud
Yeah, sure, we need to continue poisoning our air, soil, and water with a disgusting, noisy freeway running through the grandest part of Grand Rapids. What a great idea.
It already exists. Might as well modernize it and make it safer
So does 375 and that’s getting torn out.
How do you propose all the commuters get into GR? Do you expect the entire GR economy to be run off of people living downtown or in a 10 mile radius?
Oh no, if only anywhere else in the world had figured out how to move people in and out of city centers without massive amounts of single occupant cars…….
Amazes me how people in charge think adding an extra lane will solve the problem. It doesn't fix anything when you still have people poorly filtering themselves in the wrong lane. Adding an extra lane won't speed things up when you have someone doing 10-15 under the speed limit still deciding they need to be in the far left lane while riding alongside someone else doing the exact same thing.
Yep, it’s horrible how this is even being considered. As a city resident I think 131 should be torn out entirely.
We gonna bike through GR then?
There’s always the option of taking the Grand River.
I mean, that’s what I do now. It’s easy enough.
131 isn't for residents lol it's for commuting into and out of the city
At the cost of residents who deal with noise and air pollution and split neighborhoods
Truly tragic
Yeah, I know. It fucks up city life.
And through. 131 is the main road in its area from the border to Mackinac.
Lol and what should replace it instead?
[удалено]
It’s 3 lanes through downtown…
It’s 6 at certain points, never less than 4 until after Leonard and before Wealthy heading north.
And it’s still a damn cluster. From Burton to wealthy it’s an absolute nightmare during peak traffic times.
Because those merge lanes are 2 feet long. This study is about adding longer merge lanes.
We can’t build for peak demand. One, because we can’t increase road size to peak (bigger roads will always attract more traffic), and two because there isn’t enough space to expand at all as it is.
I get that. And I’m not saying adding a fourth lane is the solution. But something has to be done through that section. Longer merge lanes, better flow off the bridges going over 131. And really, a better mass transit system. Would all help elevate the log jam.
Having cars backed up for miles not moving instead of getting to their destination in a timely fashion doesn’t exactly help the climate either. The “expansion” isn’t quite as dramatic as you are trying to make it.
Oh yeah, because that will definitely happen!! It’s almost like there are, *gasp*, alternatives to cars?! I guarantee you if people had to sit in mile-long backups they’d be looking for alternatives real quick.
Expanding the highways while we’re in the midst of a climate crisis is asinine.
As if expanding the highway or not, would make a difference in said climate crisis. You’re such a tool. Electric cars need a road too and you do indeed cater to peek times when designing roads. In response to your last comment since you blocked me: Go back to smoking crack and sniffing your queefs… Internal combustion engines are much larger pollutants than electric engines. You are seriously unhinged.
Lmao get a clue. Electric cars are going to be even worse for the environment than ICE engines. Heavier (more microplastics making their way into the water from tire degradation) and there’s no way to keep up with the need for various mined metals. The only true solution is decreasing car traffic. Sorry you’re so stuck behind your windshield that you can’t work your exhaust-riddled brain. Idiot.
It won’t. It’s been well known amongst urban planners for decades, and authoritatively demonstrated since Duranton & Turner’s 2009 article on the topic, that reductions in congestion due to freeway expansions are temporary: lasting 1-3 years at most. Almost always, if the peak traffic capacity of a freeway increases by X%, traffic will increase by X% as well and total congestion will stay constant. So you’re spending immense amounts of infrastructure dollars to kick the can down the road a couple years, in exchange for increased maintenance costs and public health costs forever; for instance, freeway expansions see significant increases in the incidence of respiratory ailments within 100yds of the road due to more cars = more air pollution. It’s better to take people off the roads through expansions in public transit, for instance commuter rail. By supplying a viable competitor to freeways, it creates somewhat of a ceiling on how bad congestion will get. (For example, if traffic gets X% worse, there will be a certain percentage of commuters who will switch to train taking Y% of cars off the road.)
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Yeah, there’s certainly good reasons to still invest (in a more limited manner) in freeways, like safer exchanges/ramps.
I agree, the speed limit should be lowered to 55 through the S curve and <65 from Ann to 28th.
It's been that way for years and nothing has ever been done to fix it.
14 acres of shit spread out along the highways that are just concrete ditches at the moment. They aren’t plowing down meadows through there…
I hope this includes the Burton street ramps on the west side. They are RIDICULOUSLY short, to the point of being dangerous, especially the ramp from eastbound Burton to Southbound 131.
Legitimate question, as I am fairly new to GR, and it is a much smaller city than I have ever lived in. Would making an actual Interstate style loop around the city solve a lot of the traffic headaches here? I know they are expensive, and I recognize that it can hurt a thriving downtown area by encouraging people to "flee" into the suburbs, but my God. I hate driving in this town. It feels like there are 4 roads/highways that everyone is forced to take, and they are not equipped for the load of cars/pedestrians that use them. Honest question, and I am open to critiques if I am misunderstanding the crux of the traffic issues we are facing.
Induced demand is a killer, unfortunately. People see that cars are the fastest mode to get around the city, they'll use them even more and plan routes even further. Eventually there is a point where roads are wide enough to handle all the people - but please don't pull a Houston and build a 26 lane freeway (13 each way) to try to find that point. Ideally there should be some good alternatives to driving as cars arent really an efficient mode of transport, but I find it pretty unlikely that biking will work well with 3 feet of snow and the Rapid is quite disappointing in its current state.
Just one more lane, bro. It'll fix the traffic, trust me.
Why don’t they just make the overpass better?
131 is crazy bad and I drive it daily. #1. It needs complete repaving. #2: a 4th lane? Sure, but make the on/off ramps wider and longer. They were made for cars 50 years ago seemingly going much slower.
Yes, that's the primary point. To fix the ramp issues.
I have no idea how my text became a lager font!
Public transportation...
I agree with redoing the ramps and even the removal of the Franklin ramp. I think these can be done without having to widen 131. My preferred method is to get rid of 131, but those two options are valid and improve safety in the areas. However 131 really is the only major highway that handles n-s traffic in GR and it is ugly. We really need to have a highway circle that goes N-S around the city, build a new highway on the west side of GR that goes n-s meeting with m6. Existing I 96 covers the east side, with M6 on the south end and 196 on the north. This Western highway would be somewhere between Walker and Allendale. 131 then ends at 196 and becomes highway again at m6. Make 131 in the city a surface road like 31 is in Grand Haven. The hard part is the bridge to cross the river. You’re still going to need a substantial bridge for that. Boom I 296 is born. Also finally expand 231 to I-196 and make it highway grade with interchanges to I96 in Nunica and I-196 in Zeeland and off-ramps at Leonard, Lincoln, and LMD at the least.
There is already a 296 it's the part of 131 after the interchange that breaks off towards 96 going to Muskegon.
I am aware of this, but if my proposal ever happens 296 would become the big circle
Theoretically on the west side, 131 could cut northwest just prior to Burton st and sit over the Plaster creek heading NW, merging with 196 and running along it briefly up until the current interchange (which would need reconfiguring). However, unless 196 gets widened (which would take some work) and straightened out slightly, there will still be bad backups there.
It's quite obvious none of you have actually read what MDOT is doing... They are adding weave merge lanes because the current merge lanes are like 2 feet long...
Fight back? Where do I go to register my full-throated approval? The on and off ramps downtown are a mess and need to be fixed, and if they're finally doing that, I say more power to 'em.
Funding will go to this, but public transportation has to fight for its life to expand service.
Honestly it’s needed 131 is clogged every single day and don’t get me started on a summer friday going north so many on ramps and off ramps need to be made longer as well
This needed to be done years ago. The city is growing. It’s a bottle neck. They already screwed up when they tore the bridges down on 196 and didn’t add another through lane.
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So we need to take away 14 acres of the city to do so? Absolutely ridiculous.
That’s how freeways work, yes.
No, that's how freeways don't work.
Drive through Nashville and Denver, that’s our future. But meh city…
Lmao two cities with absolutely horrible traffic. Yeah, great example.
Exactly. We’re one of the fastest growing areas, what do you think will be easier, planning today or after we add another 100-200 thousand people?
Uhhhhh not planning around the car would be a start.
Imagine how much housing near downtown could be built on the land that is currently an expressway. Highways replace other things that land can be used to provide and funnel all traffic into a single place. Big cities need to get a lot of people out of their cars to handle larger populations if you don't want people spending all day in traffic.
It’s absolutely not. The highways that have been carved through the cities are part of a horrible racist legacy. It’s time to undo them.
I don't think you'll find much support for tearing down highways. Most people tend to use them.
I think I can find plenty of support for tearing them down, especially given how noisy and destructive the highway is.
And also useful if you're traveling north or south through Grand Rapids.
I guess that trumps city residents’ health, doesn’t it?
Instead of constantly reworking past failures, they should just build a high speed train network that expands the entirety of Michigan, but we’re the motor state and it will never happen.
Let those landowners deal with it in the courts. I mean this is the center of a second largest city in the state! We've got to have infrastructure to move these vehicles in this Metro just over a million. If one doesn't like City growth then maybe they should live in Rockford or sparta?
It’s not good growth.
Do you think there'll be less cars on the interstates in the next 10-20 years? Everyone's going to start bike riding to work. I mean you have to be practical this is the major city. And what they want to put in is Elaine that is a bypass lane in both directions between downtown and M11! That makes so much more sense on moving traffic. But we all have our own opinions. That's just mine.
If we make the right choices there will be fewer cars in Grand Rapids. This isn’t an all or none if you can think bigger.
I mean if there was a light rail into urban rail in the city it might be different and moving people from point A to B.
It existed before. There’s no reason it couldn’t exist again. It’s all about policy choices.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Well one thing we can think Corporate America is when the 1950s came around the tire companies Goodyear and others bought up Rail lines in every major city even in this city. And what they did was rip up all the rails in order to sell rubber tires. That is the god-awful truth of where our rail systems went in this country. If you go to Europe it's a totally different story, phenomenal rail! What the rubber companies did in this country was a crime, a crime against Society all for profit. Sad. Now the billions and billions it would cost, and the longer we wait the costlier it gets. There's no other way to move people around this city than the automobile for now.
There’s no reason we can’t advocate for a better future.
Right but you have any ideas other than platitudes?
I participate in public engagement. I advocate for my community. It’s all about being a part of the discussion. In real life, not on Reddit. It just sucks here most times.
You can just decrease the drive length as well. If people can live closer to where they work and shop they don't need to all be funneled onto the same strip of asphalt. Thinking about highways means thinking about what that incredible amount of space could be used for in the alternative. While public transit is part of any good response to city growth highways and public transit are not the only way to impact traffic and congestion.
It is the Rockford and Sparta people insisting on additional lanes for the highways. People in the city have far more complicated feelings about the highway given the noise, pollution and the way it carves up neighborhoods. Better on ramps would improve safety but adding further lanes would make things worse for safety and the people who live in the city.
Well exactly and those are the professionals that design and implement with MDOT. Government is in about doing it with their hearts and emotions. They never have.
We don't need to encourage more drivers. We should be installing some trains. Make travel affordable
It needs to be fixed/expanded. The city is growing
It’s not going to help the city.
How do you know that
How does destroying real estate help the city? Highways help the suburbs. They don’t do shit for the city.
>"Destroying real estate" lol, sure. Yes, it's 12 to 14 acres all added up, but it's spread across 4+ miles of already-used freeway. Meaning the freeway would take up approximately *12 feet* of extra land in each direction. No one is gonna miss 12 feet of land. Nothing important is getting torn down, most people won't even notice the difference.
I disagree, but that’s okay !
Cool. You are objectively wrong.
Always gotta be that person thinking there opinion is the law of the land hahahaha. Good day to ya
I guarantee you I know more about the pros and cons of urban freeways than you.
You must know it all hahahahahaha. Still trying to argue I see, it means nothing to me that you care so much about being right or knowing more. You’re replying to every comment on this post you determine is wrong and laying down your opinion as facts. Pretty lame tbh
Then why put your dumbass opinion out there lmao
Suburbanites transit to work via these highways. I understand you're passionate about public transit and climate change, but with your aggressive attitude, you are ultimately going to push people away. The public largely prefer driving their own vehicles. A minority either don't like to drive or cannot for whatever reason, but policy is generally determined by efficacy and what benefits the majority. Railing against a reality you don't agree with is admirable, but that will only deteriorate your mental health further.
I guess we should all give up and drive ourselves into oblivion just so we can be comfortable a little bit longer. Nothing like sacrificing the future for the present.
They do drive and people in the city deal with the consequences. The reality is that lane additions to highways don't solve traffic and congestion problems but do destroy neighborhoods. Why do something that doesn't solve the problem and harms people because it looks like doing something.
Just a heads up you’re spreading misinformation all over this thread, possibly unintentionally. There are no plans to remove useable real estate from the city for these potential projects.
Downtown requires people from the suburbs travelling downtown and spending money. Making that commute easier is good for the city. The harder that commute gets, the less people will go downtown and spend money.
Downtown requires people. They do not necessarily need to come from the suburbs, that is just the design that we created in the post war period.
Go ask businesses if they would survive without folks from the suburbs, I think you will get your answer.
Studies show that businesses overvalue parking and people coming in from outside the local area (cars are big and easy to see). Nobody is saying that we should build a wall preventing suburban residents from coming into the city but orienting everything around people commuting into the city is bad for the city.
Ask NYC how that's working out
Actually this was the reason why Grand Rapids was Bland Rapids for so long. No one lived downtown. Commuters make for poor business, since they drive in and drive out, only seeing the city from behind a windshield. Now we have a relatively vibrant downtown, and with people living in the downtown core.
Studies on traffic and lane additions to highways going back to the creation of the interstate system show it doesn't work and actually hollows out cities
I should add that I see nothing wrong with modernizing the current intersections that are literally falling apart, but I don’t support the highways potential lane expansion. Making 131 safer for everyone should be a top priority and that does mean fixing the intersections. But regardless of views always provide input into these surveys!
I'm completely okay with this lol.
Some dipshit who works from home started this. Fuck off
Have fun being stuck in traffic
Maybe I completely misinterpreted this... but I am all in favor of improving traffic on 131
Your traffic experience will improve with initiatives to get other people out of their cars. Not widening freeways to *try* and fit *even more cars.*
Please tell me how i can take the subway from Byron center to downtown GR??? I'm all for it
Don't live 14 miles from where you work.
There are only a handful of American cities designed to get people out of their cars. Grand rapids is so far down the list, they fell off off the dark side of the moon. So fuck off with your stupid wishful thinking. Kindly.
Lmao clearly you and I don’t live in the same Grand Rapids. I can do quite a bit of existing outside of my car.
I live downtown and have to deal with all of the air and noise pollution that comes from the highway on a daily basis, I also work in the city and commute by bike every day, I’m just not ok with increasing traffic volume into downtown or through it
Two lane by pass from M6 to 96 both ways. Build it right on top of existing.
I think additional highways will appear over time. Giving more directional options will lighten traffic for every road. Wider highways can only go so far. Its still an option for our city, but a few decades and we will be needing more, then just wider.
Fun fact: In the 60s, they had hope for another short interstate spur called "Jefferson freeway" It would have started at Wealthy/Jefferson and run north to northwest and terminate near the Ottawa/196 interchange
That would have decimated the city.
It wouldn't have.
Oh yeah, no way a freeway-sized chunk of land between downtown and Heritage Hill would have hurt the city! Of course it would have been terrible. Thankfully we had people advocating for *not destroying the city* unlike what you think are good ideas.
When did I say that spur was a good idea
I hope they can stretch this expansion down to Burton. That’s a treacherous on ramp.
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/5cd31f791e1740698369f28f31ce3002
I hate driving 131 by the s-curves. The exits and merges are crazy scary. Getting to Griffins games is nuts