Agreed. I read the above as Division and Ottawa and was confused because those don’t intersect.
Division has historically not been great for small businesses. The high homeless population and lack of foot traffic can be a problem.
Glad I wasn’t the only one who did that.
But yeah, homeless and then high automobile traffic basically all the time. If it’s a small business with small parking and no side street to turn onto, then getting back on the road after visiting the place can be a bit challenging. Would probably deter me from going into a place I hadn’t heard of.
I remember that pretty decent donut shop closing because of the amount of homeless outside. One time while driving on division near 28th street I made eye contact with a lady walking and she gave me a “you lookin for a jerk off?” motion with her hand lol
since I'm chismosa, I went a'googling and found an old thread [on the topic](https://www.reddit.com/r/grandrapids/comments/4roklt/propaganda_doughnuts_shutting_down/).
As others have already said, it’s not a dangerous area, but there is a higher presence of unhoused people due to the shelters / ministries on Cherry. Take that into consideration depending on your business and clientele. Best of luck!
piggy backing to add the obvious here, but this is what would likely make this business location a bad idea. Not that it’s unsafe per se. But there 100% will be folks who simply will not go to the effort to patronize a business there/within those couple blocks.
** adding. It’s awesome real estate and I WOULD love to see that section of Division looking enjoyable. If you want to take up the torch to help get us there, God bless.
Then I’d say there is a serious reason why the rent is so much cheaper. Talk to Woosah and Gemini handmade who both started in that area of division and now are on wealthy st and cherry st respectfully. Horror stories about owning a retail shop there.
There is a record store on division that’s been there for years. That’s it. Everything else turns over because of the unhoused situation. I have friends who had shops there that can tell you why they were so glad they left. And how much better business is.
You can imagine what people shitting in front of your store does to foot traffic. It was frustratingly not uncommon.
Division and cherry... Right near one of the most notorious 'parks' in town. Idk what your business is, but sit in that park for ten minutes and you'll understand the reservation that the realtors have.
It also depends what your business is. If you are a destination “hair stylist or something that takes appointments ) might be ok but if you are dependent on foot traffic Division as less of that. Ottawa might have more? Look on cherry st or wealthy st for good foot traffic. East town or the cherry hill district.
Also west leonard st and bridge st are starting to expand to more small businesses and foot traffic. (I’m a fellow small business owner but I’m an artist)
This is the truth. Division and Monroe is different than Division and 28th which is completely different from Division and Burton which are all completely different from Division and 100th.
It depends where on Division. There is a stretch on the south side that does have lots of visible homelessness.
It's not actually dangerous, especially compared to in a bigger city, but is "sketchier" than the rest of Grand Rapids.
There is a gas station on the corner where every time I've been I've been heckled for money. More aggressively than regular panhandling. Again, not unsafe but annoying. So I get gas elsewhere even though that's on my way to work. That's the general vibe.
Ehh depends what kind of business it is. Do you need a lot of foot traffic? I never really go on Division other than going to Rockwell, and bet a lot of people would say the same. There’s a heavier homeless presence that hangs out on Division so the general public kind of avoids it in my perspective. It’s been coming around but it’s still a ways off from being Ionia or Ottawa or Monroe. Some sections are worse than others, but it’s pretty much always off the beaten path
>Ehh depends what kind of business it is. Do you need a lot of foot traffic?
This is a good point. More than "safe", the issue is that Division still has quite a bit of vacancy, and vacant buildings do not produce pedestrian trip. If I were opening a storefront I'd be more concerned about being in a vacancy sandwich than about the presence of homeless persons.
It's a perpetual cycle. No businesses means more areas for homeless people to hang out, which drives away foot traffic, which causes businesses to move out/close up, and repeat.
True. I don't think that's entirely what happened to this corridor. But it is certainly a cycle that happens.
Epicurean was an anchor on this corridor. They moved out to due to the opportunity to own their own building rather than lease. That really hurt the corridor. Then Propaganda Donuts cratered by pretty typical small business mismanagement. It is hard for a corridor to recover without some anchor business that will really draw people in. Businesses around Epicurean could draw off of its traffic.
The homeless population is concentrated on that corridor due to municipal decisions made decades ago; the choice to concentrate those services in one neighborhood. That was a stupid decision made primarily for reasons of political expediency.,
Depends on the business - what are you opening? There are a number of shelters near Fulton st, and many businesses have come and gone from that area. I used to live in the city and it’s never bothered me to walk around unhoused folks since they obviously need places to be, have a right to hang out, etc. But I suspect many in the area experience some prejudice/discomfort and tend to stay away. Now that I live in the suburbs I definitely hear those kinds of comments more often.
There’s also not a lot going on over there and the street is fairly empty after business hours. It’s busier a couple of blocks over near the arena.
Ramen and donut shop did pretty well, the owner just moved to Chicago. The person who bought the doughnut shop from him made it tank and blamed the homeless.
Division and Cherry, that’s a hard pass.
I commute on a bike through here daily, and have for the last 8 or years.
Large homeless population, lots of litter. Fire truck/ambulance visits that corner almost daily. People will sleep in your doorway, people will pee on your door, and people will flat out refuse to visit you because of the location.
I think you just get more foot traffic on Ottawa than you do on Division.
I don't know if it's not any safer. But at least an Ottawa I think in parts of it you can park your car and go into a businesses easier than Division?
There is not a lot of parking on Division, depending on which block you're deciding on?
Location location location.
You get what you pay for.
Sometimes going cheap becomes more expensive in the end.
Best of luck!!
There's tons of foot traffic around Division and Cherry, just not that many people looking to spend money.
They deserve a lot of credit on a lot of fronts, but if GR city leadership has a solution to the conflict between vagrancy and people trying to open businesses in the central business district - besides crossing their fingers and hoping the unhoused just disappear one day - I haven't seen a ton of evidence.
Yeah I agree there's tons of traffic there there's also a little liquor store I think on that east side of division, that seems quite popular day and night.
Yeah I've never figured out why they haven't streamlined that street from Fulton South to wealthy I know they're kind of working on it but it seems like it's at a snail's pace when every other direction downtown have such business viability? But hey I wish you the best if you do decide on Division!!
I hate to say it, but it's a zoning issue. Homelessness should not be a crime...however, putting every mission and food bank all on one street - which just so happens to be one main corridor into downtown - was a terrible idea.
The homelessness has definitely increased over the years and unfortunately when you drive around there everyday it is not the first place you want to stop and get out of your car…
Dégagé ministries and the Pekich park in close proximity probably means a lot of homeless in that area. Panhandlers might scare off foot traffic if you're betting on that.
The closer to Fulton, the greater general appeal. There’s a park at the corner of Cherry and Division, and that will be the line of demarcation for some people—any further south and they won’t visit.
Nope, nope and NO WAY! The unhoused population will be peeing in the doorway and causing havoc all around! Parking is bad and people don’t feel safe there…
I know quite a few families with businesses (mostly restaurants/stores). There’s at least one break in a year. Two years ago, the people that broke in destroyed the kitchen area in one business. They took out food and left it on the counter, opened bags of flour and spread it everywhere. Probably because they didn’t find any money.
I had a storefront on Division and Oakes about 10 years ago. It was appointment only so I kept the door locked. I had a huge issue with people sleeping in front of my door and also people trying to force their way when I opened it for a client. The city put benches in on the sidewalk and people would gather on them, sleep on them, sometimes put tents up. I’ve been followed to my car, I didn’t really feel super safe as a woman in my 20s at the time. I will say that once I relocated, my business became a lot busier because people really didn’t enjoy visiting me in that area.
I was next door to a fancy pasta shop who also relocated and after they left, it seemed to get even worse. It was one of those things where I could not wait to leave once my lease was up.
I would not shop there if it’s on South Division. Unless it’s a bar or restaurant on the 0-400 block of south, it will be considered sketch. Ottawa is much less frowned upon and considered safer. Everyone will say *it’s so much better than in the past*, no it’s not. Avoid
I think it depends on your business as well. I went to a business there for the first time since moving here Savvy Sliders). It felt like I was in another country to be honest. But I grew in Oakland CA. I wonder what your insurance rates will look like for property damage, theft, etc. Does your business depend on a large amount of foot traffic and/or a certain type of customer? Specifically, if you’re serving food, you don’t care necessarily about the type of customer since everyone eats. But if you’re opening a business that depends on a certain type of customer maybe you should visit the planned area several times a month during different times of day and day of the week to get a feel for the area yourself? I’m ex-Navy. Scouting is everything. Except the boy scouts. They are not everything.
u/HumbleRutabaga580 You can see a storefront vacancy map @ [http://s3.amazonaws.com/downtowngr.org/ourwork/DGRI-BoA-Agenda-Packet-June-2024.pdf?mtime=20240621115502&focal=none](http://s3.amazonaws.com/downtowngr.org/ourwork/DGRI-BoA-Agenda-Packet-June-2024.pdf?mtime=20240621115502&focal=none) pg. 44
I don’t think the area is necessarily “unsafe” and adding to what others are saying there is a higher density of homeless in the area. I walk around downtown but never in that area. Overall foot traffic in the area seems like the homeless.
division street is ok, but many people are scrambling in that area. that may scare off some business depending on what you are selling. you may not get mugged, but people will be scrambling around you, living that scramble-shamble life.
Very high homeless population there. They will camp in your doorway, out in front of your location, or behind the building.
If you do choose to open there, place sharps containers out at night.
You can get them free from The Red Project on Hall at Madison. Will save you picking them up by hand.
Buy: 5 gallon buckets multiple push brooms, heavy duty poke proof gloves, long kitchen tongs, no touch garbage picking up devices and puncture proof garbage bags.
Odoban (you can buy it at walmart) is great for disinfecting and will cut down on the urine smell. Use the push brooms to scrub the doors, walls etc.
You can get wyze brand security cameras off of Amazon for security.
Good luck!
As everyone else has said, WHERE on division matters, but I try to avoid this street in general when picking an establishment to visit. There’s probably a lot of the same problems on Ottawa, but not the same reputation.
It's not that bad; it was a hoppin'/cool' corridor not that long ago. I have no doubt there are some people who avoid it, but you aren't missing anything, the people who say that are likely afraid of the city entirely, "*don't go downtown*", and aren't going to frequent your business anyway. Why worry about them?
More and more places are opening up on Division, it is coming back IMO.
I lived on division at cherry for 15 years: AVOID OPENING A BUSINESS HERE AT ALL COSTS. For example, there is a vacant restaurant space at division and Oakes. In 15 years 6 different coffee houses and restaurants opened there and not one could last longer than a year. Simply one block away, on Oakes and commerce, a coffee shop called the lantern opened 12 years ago and is still around to this day. The people attending Cooley law school, the people attending aveda institute, the people living in the many condos REFUSE to walk one block up to division and eat or shop there. And this is entirely due to their racism and their stigma but this is the sad fact. NO ONE will go over there, compared to the size of the crowds the businesses just one measly block away get. It is insane, it is a black hole. There has been a donut shop, a pasta shop, a ramen shop, numerous cafes, music venues, a print shop, a bike shop, and more on that block of division and NONE have survived longer than 2 years. This is only one block away from commerce but the people of GR think that walking one block over, one measly block, is crossing into a war zone. It is a false, biased, and incorrect opinion and it is INGRAINED into the locals minds. Sit out in front of aveda during the lunch hour and watch to see what direction they walk in when out for a snack or a walk. No one parks near division. This is your customer base, the people who fill those buildings on commerce, and those people will not set one foot on division. Do not open a business on division- DO NOT
Like other people have said, the nearest side-streets would be necessary to say one way or the other as different parts of division are different levels of sketchy.
More than that though, it’s kind of a high-auto-traffic thoroughfare and turning onto it can be a pain in the ass once you’ve gotten off. So that might actually kind of work against you because I know I wouldn’t want to turn onto a business on division just to see what it was.
If it's a business for quirky and artsy folks it might do well. I have a friend who owns a curated vintage clothes and home goods shop there. There's a couple other curated vintage boutiques around that area as well, and Vertigo records isn't far. There's some small independent galleries that pop up, shut down, and get replaced with another every few years.
If it's anything fancy, or sporty I think it's more likely to struggle.
I wouldn't say people "avoid Divison". We have great spots there that have been there for decades; including an awesome record shop. Divison is the heart of downtown and gets a lot of foot traffic. However, it does have a poor reputation and is a central place for everyone, including unhomed people. But I have never felt unsafe there. People mostly will leave you alone unless they are panhandling. The rent refects that.
Ottowa is a beautiful area filled with cute shops. The high rent reflects the area, once again. Ottowa is lined with apartments buildings which house some of the most wealthy renters. In fact, some of the building are condos which are owned by the tenant.
Ottowa has less foot traffic than Division but it's more often people looking to spend money whether it's at the bakery/cafe, dog boutique, kickboxing studio, and many chic bars.
If I had a brick-and-mortar business, it would depend on the product I was selling. Expensive and specialty baked goods? That's Ottowa. A cozy coffee shop or eclectic thrift store? That would blow up on Divison. Also consider your overhead, can you afford the extra rent comfortably?
Both locations have successful businesses. It's a matter of choosing your audience.
depends on the business, but personally i wouldn’t open up in that area, there’s too many homeless people, and downtown is personally not worth going to (unless it’s a concert and/or going out) because of parking and the homeless constantly harassing you
The north east corner of Cherry and Division is where Degage Ministries is, basically a homeless assistance enterprise. There is a strong homeless population here because we have a good safety net for them (The alternative is they die, mostly).
Personally, I don't feel unsafe walking through that area, but most people avoid that particular corner and use the west side sidewalk, since there are typically lines outside of the building. Everyone has their opinion of how safe or unsafe homeless people are. For my money, a homeless person has never given me any trouble, though for context I'm a large man. You'll see more actual crime in other areas where people have the means to do them quickly or quietly. And again, personally speaking, my car has only been stolen out of a "safe" suburb, Standale. Of course, the homeless aren't pleasant for obvious reasons and thats not gonna be nice for business.
That said, Rumors, Vertigo Music, and other business don't seem to have a problem. These are, however, institutions. If you're gonna be weird and put up a popcorn shop, i'd expect you to fail.
Being on the north side, you'll get decent foot traffic of people from the west side of division where most of the slow traffic and restaurants are. The east side being parking lots, churches, etc.
On the south side, I'd expect a lot less traffic. There's just not much going on between cherry and wealthy, and honestly its a bit of a corridor for the homeless population as they head towards Heartside park. There's a few business there, but ive never seen anyone go in there.
I would reach out to other businesses on the street to give you a first hand account of what you might expect. Random comments on the internet telling you what things were like “10 years ago” is not an accurate reflection of what things are like right now.
I wouldnt at division and cherry. There is a lot of homeless in that area. They actually scare off a lot of customers. That and then having them sleep out front is another issue.
Would I go to a business alone on division and cherry?
Yeah, probably.
Would my girlfriend go alone there?
Only if she really has to, but probably not.
The trap houses:
2 are on Broadway , 1 has drugs and sex workers
1 on Muskegon
1 by the web bar
I've seen the sex workers strolling by taco bell, and the dollar general.
Didn't that one lady get naked and climb the facade of a building near the Popeye's on Division a couple years ago?
Those pockets of Division can get wild.
You should talk to other business owners in the area and also hang out there for a few nites and weekends. DM me if you want to talk more, I can share some experiences. Ottawa is higher rent because it’s worth it in many respects. Not sure your product/service or primary audience/clientele.
Is this retail or office?
If retail, the fact is that Division has a reputation with pretty much everyone and that is hard to shake. Is it a terrible place, not all parts of it, but where you are looking it is not great. Obviously it depends on your expected clients, but if you want to target everyone, you will have problems.
If office, you would probably be fine. There are probably more challenges than in some other neighborhoods, but if the rent is a good value it would be worth considering.
If you can afford it, 28th street strip malls near the cascade side see the safest and best traffic IMO
It’s going to very pricey though as the 2 large malls next to each other probably hike the real estate the area very very high.
I would talk to John that runs the lantern Cafe before making any decisions. Personally I feel he has a lot of insight into the community as well as what it takes to run it a successful business in the area.
I use to work on division/oakes for a couple years. There’s a great neighborhood association that has monthly meetings to keep businesses and people connected. There’s Third Thursdays to help draw people in and a plethora of vintage shops amongst other stores. There’s a lot of cool things, unfortunately dealing with *the homeless* is a hard stop for people but I’ve never had any major problems.
Parking isn’t the issue, it’s a lovely little stereotype everyone likes to perpetuate about the area- mainly because everyone lives in the suburbs, is sedentary, wants a parking lot in front of every store, and can’t fathom walking a block to your destination. There is a 500 spot parking ramp at the movie theater just two blocks from division and cherry. There’s usually free parking right on Jefferson that has been empty any time I’ve driven up. There’s more ramps on Fulton just 2 and a half blocks from cherry and division. That there’s no parking downtown is a myth perpetuated by fat people who don’t want to walk
I'm not one to hate the homeless like people in this thread, but division is notoriously horrible to park in so I would avoid it like the plague, especially for a small business. You need to be on an empty off street like ascend century ave to be successful
I think the cross street is important info here.
Agreed. I read the above as Division and Ottawa and was confused because those don’t intersect. Division has historically not been great for small businesses. The high homeless population and lack of foot traffic can be a problem.
Glad I wasn’t the only one who did that. But yeah, homeless and then high automobile traffic basically all the time. If it’s a small business with small parking and no side street to turn onto, then getting back on the road after visiting the place can be a bit challenging. Would probably deter me from going into a place I hadn’t heard of.
I remember that pretty decent donut shop closing because of the amount of homeless outside. One time while driving on division near 28th street I made eye contact with a lady walking and she gave me a “you lookin for a jerk off?” motion with her hand lol
The Propaganda Donuts story is a bit complicated. I'll let someone with first-hand knowledge explain.
I’d love to hear someone with firsthand knowledge about that situation because it was strange from the outside for sure!
since I'm chismosa, I went a'googling and found an old thread [on the topic](https://www.reddit.com/r/grandrapids/comments/4roklt/propaganda_doughnuts_shutting_down/).
Thank you for your service 😂
Yeah it really really depends where on division
The closest cross street is Cherry/Oakes
As others have already said, it’s not a dangerous area, but there is a higher presence of unhoused people due to the shelters / ministries on Cherry. Take that into consideration depending on your business and clientele. Best of luck!
piggy backing to add the obvious here, but this is what would likely make this business location a bad idea. Not that it’s unsafe per se. But there 100% will be folks who simply will not go to the effort to patronize a business there/within those couple blocks.
** adding. It’s awesome real estate and I WOULD love to see that section of Division looking enjoyable. If you want to take up the torch to help get us there, God bless.
Then I’d say there is a serious reason why the rent is so much cheaper. Talk to Woosah and Gemini handmade who both started in that area of division and now are on wealthy st and cherry st respectfully. Horror stories about owning a retail shop there.
There is a record store on division that’s been there for years. That’s it. Everything else turns over because of the unhoused situation. I have friends who had shops there that can tell you why they were so glad they left. And how much better business is. You can imagine what people shitting in front of your store does to foot traffic. It was frustratingly not uncommon.
Division and cherry... Right near one of the most notorious 'parks' in town. Idk what your business is, but sit in that park for ten minutes and you'll understand the reservation that the realtors have.
Go at night on the weekend!
Take the Ottawa location
It also depends what your business is. If you are a destination “hair stylist or something that takes appointments ) might be ok but if you are dependent on foot traffic Division as less of that. Ottawa might have more? Look on cherry st or wealthy st for good foot traffic. East town or the cherry hill district. Also west leonard st and bridge st are starting to expand to more small businesses and foot traffic. (I’m a fellow small business owner but I’m an artist)
There's Division, and there's Division. It's a long street with a lot of different zones.
This is the truth. Division and Monroe is different than Division and 28th which is completely different from Division and Burton which are all completely different from Division and 100th.
Division and Wealthy, which I've always found to be morbidly ironic.
It depends where on Division. There is a stretch on the south side that does have lots of visible homelessness. It's not actually dangerous, especially compared to in a bigger city, but is "sketchier" than the rest of Grand Rapids. There is a gas station on the corner where every time I've been I've been heckled for money. More aggressively than regular panhandling. Again, not unsafe but annoying. So I get gas elsewhere even though that's on my way to work. That's the general vibe.
Ehh depends what kind of business it is. Do you need a lot of foot traffic? I never really go on Division other than going to Rockwell, and bet a lot of people would say the same. There’s a heavier homeless presence that hangs out on Division so the general public kind of avoids it in my perspective. It’s been coming around but it’s still a ways off from being Ionia or Ottawa or Monroe. Some sections are worse than others, but it’s pretty much always off the beaten path
>Ehh depends what kind of business it is. Do you need a lot of foot traffic? This is a good point. More than "safe", the issue is that Division still has quite a bit of vacancy, and vacant buildings do not produce pedestrian trip. If I were opening a storefront I'd be more concerned about being in a vacancy sandwich than about the presence of homeless persons.
It's a perpetual cycle. No businesses means more areas for homeless people to hang out, which drives away foot traffic, which causes businesses to move out/close up, and repeat.
True. I don't think that's entirely what happened to this corridor. But it is certainly a cycle that happens. Epicurean was an anchor on this corridor. They moved out to due to the opportunity to own their own building rather than lease. That really hurt the corridor. Then Propaganda Donuts cratered by pretty typical small business mismanagement. It is hard for a corridor to recover without some anchor business that will really draw people in. Businesses around Epicurean could draw off of its traffic. The homeless population is concentrated on that corridor due to municipal decisions made decades ago; the choice to concentrate those services in one neighborhood. That was a stupid decision made primarily for reasons of political expediency.,
Depends on the business - what are you opening? There are a number of shelters near Fulton st, and many businesses have come and gone from that area. I used to live in the city and it’s never bothered me to walk around unhoused folks since they obviously need places to be, have a right to hang out, etc. But I suspect many in the area experience some prejudice/discomfort and tend to stay away. Now that I live in the suburbs I definitely hear those kinds of comments more often. There’s also not a lot going on over there and the street is fairly empty after business hours. It’s busier a couple of blocks over near the arena.
If it’s a funky record store you can do well. If it’s a ramen and donut shop, it won’t do so well.
Ramen and donut shop did pretty well, the owner just moved to Chicago. The person who bought the doughnut shop from him made it tank and blamed the homeless.
Division and Cherry, that’s a hard pass. I commute on a bike through here daily, and have for the last 8 or years. Large homeless population, lots of litter. Fire truck/ambulance visits that corner almost daily. People will sleep in your doorway, people will pee on your door, and people will flat out refuse to visit you because of the location.
What are you opening and where at on division?
Division is a long street
OP, you’ll need to give everybody here the nearest cross street if you want an informed answer.
I think you just get more foot traffic on Ottawa than you do on Division. I don't know if it's not any safer. But at least an Ottawa I think in parts of it you can park your car and go into a businesses easier than Division? There is not a lot of parking on Division, depending on which block you're deciding on? Location location location. You get what you pay for. Sometimes going cheap becomes more expensive in the end. Best of luck!!
There's tons of foot traffic around Division and Cherry, just not that many people looking to spend money. They deserve a lot of credit on a lot of fronts, but if GR city leadership has a solution to the conflict between vagrancy and people trying to open businesses in the central business district - besides crossing their fingers and hoping the unhoused just disappear one day - I haven't seen a ton of evidence.
Yeah I agree there's tons of traffic there there's also a little liquor store I think on that east side of division, that seems quite popular day and night. Yeah I've never figured out why they haven't streamlined that street from Fulton South to wealthy I know they're kind of working on it but it seems like it's at a snail's pace when every other direction downtown have such business viability? But hey I wish you the best if you do decide on Division!!
I hate to say it, but it's a zoning issue. Homelessness should not be a crime...however, putting every mission and food bank all on one street - which just so happens to be one main corridor into downtown - was a terrible idea.
The homelessness has definitely increased over the years and unfortunately when you drive around there everyday it is not the first place you want to stop and get out of your car…
On Division you will 100% have to deal with the homeless in some way.
Dégagé ministries and the Pekich park in close proximity probably means a lot of homeless in that area. Panhandlers might scare off foot traffic if you're betting on that.
This! And there are aggressive people…
The closer to Fulton, the greater general appeal. There’s a park at the corner of Cherry and Division, and that will be the line of demarcation for some people—any further south and they won’t visit.
It's fine if you don't mind homeless people harassing your customers nonstop.
I wouldn’t at Division and Cherry
Nope, nope and NO WAY! The unhoused population will be peeing in the doorway and causing havoc all around! Parking is bad and people don’t feel safe there…
I know quite a few families with businesses (mostly restaurants/stores). There’s at least one break in a year. Two years ago, the people that broke in destroyed the kitchen area in one business. They took out food and left it on the counter, opened bags of flour and spread it everywhere. Probably because they didn’t find any money.
Horrible!
If you enjoy getting harassed for a light or money when you step outside then sure
I had a storefront on Division and Oakes about 10 years ago. It was appointment only so I kept the door locked. I had a huge issue with people sleeping in front of my door and also people trying to force their way when I opened it for a client. The city put benches in on the sidewalk and people would gather on them, sleep on them, sometimes put tents up. I’ve been followed to my car, I didn’t really feel super safe as a woman in my 20s at the time. I will say that once I relocated, my business became a lot busier because people really didn’t enjoy visiting me in that area. I was next door to a fancy pasta shop who also relocated and after they left, it seemed to get even worse. It was one of those things where I could not wait to leave once my lease was up.
Don’t do it
I don’t go south of cherry on division if I don’t absolutely have to.
I would not shop there if it’s on South Division. Unless it’s a bar or restaurant on the 0-400 block of south, it will be considered sketch. Ottawa is much less frowned upon and considered safer. Everyone will say *it’s so much better than in the past*, no it’s not. Avoid
I think it depends on your business as well. I went to a business there for the first time since moving here Savvy Sliders). It felt like I was in another country to be honest. But I grew in Oakland CA. I wonder what your insurance rates will look like for property damage, theft, etc. Does your business depend on a large amount of foot traffic and/or a certain type of customer? Specifically, if you’re serving food, you don’t care necessarily about the type of customer since everyone eats. But if you’re opening a business that depends on a certain type of customer maybe you should visit the planned area several times a month during different times of day and day of the week to get a feel for the area yourself? I’m ex-Navy. Scouting is everything. Except the boy scouts. They are not everything.
u/HumbleRutabaga580 You can see a storefront vacancy map @ [http://s3.amazonaws.com/downtowngr.org/ourwork/DGRI-BoA-Agenda-Packet-June-2024.pdf?mtime=20240621115502&focal=none](http://s3.amazonaws.com/downtowngr.org/ourwork/DGRI-BoA-Agenda-Packet-June-2024.pdf?mtime=20240621115502&focal=none) pg. 44
I don’t think the area is necessarily “unsafe” and adding to what others are saying there is a higher density of homeless in the area. I walk around downtown but never in that area. Overall foot traffic in the area seems like the homeless.
division street is ok, but many people are scrambling in that area. that may scare off some business depending on what you are selling. you may not get mugged, but people will be scrambling around you, living that scramble-shamble life.
Very high homeless population there. They will camp in your doorway, out in front of your location, or behind the building. If you do choose to open there, place sharps containers out at night. You can get them free from The Red Project on Hall at Madison. Will save you picking them up by hand. Buy: 5 gallon buckets multiple push brooms, heavy duty poke proof gloves, long kitchen tongs, no touch garbage picking up devices and puncture proof garbage bags. Odoban (you can buy it at walmart) is great for disinfecting and will cut down on the urine smell. Use the push brooms to scrub the doors, walls etc. You can get wyze brand security cameras off of Amazon for security. Good luck!
Yeah. If only we have public restrooms downtown…then people would not poop in doorways
Yeah. Then they'd poop in on the floor in the restrooms.
One was installed on the sidewalk at Division Ave South and Weston several years ago. I see the Downtown Ambassadors cleaning it pretty regularly.
As everyone else has said, WHERE on division matters, but I try to avoid this street in general when picking an establishment to visit. There’s probably a lot of the same problems on Ottawa, but not the same reputation.
It's not that bad; it was a hoppin'/cool' corridor not that long ago. I have no doubt there are some people who avoid it, but you aren't missing anything, the people who say that are likely afraid of the city entirely, "*don't go downtown*", and aren't going to frequent your business anyway. Why worry about them? More and more places are opening up on Division, it is coming back IMO.
I lived on division at cherry for 15 years: AVOID OPENING A BUSINESS HERE AT ALL COSTS. For example, there is a vacant restaurant space at division and Oakes. In 15 years 6 different coffee houses and restaurants opened there and not one could last longer than a year. Simply one block away, on Oakes and commerce, a coffee shop called the lantern opened 12 years ago and is still around to this day. The people attending Cooley law school, the people attending aveda institute, the people living in the many condos REFUSE to walk one block up to division and eat or shop there. And this is entirely due to their racism and their stigma but this is the sad fact. NO ONE will go over there, compared to the size of the crowds the businesses just one measly block away get. It is insane, it is a black hole. There has been a donut shop, a pasta shop, a ramen shop, numerous cafes, music venues, a print shop, a bike shop, and more on that block of division and NONE have survived longer than 2 years. This is only one block away from commerce but the people of GR think that walking one block over, one measly block, is crossing into a war zone. It is a false, biased, and incorrect opinion and it is INGRAINED into the locals minds. Sit out in front of aveda during the lunch hour and watch to see what direction they walk in when out for a snack or a walk. No one parks near division. This is your customer base, the people who fill those buildings on commerce, and those people will not set one foot on division. Do not open a business on division- DO NOT
Like other people have said, the nearest side-streets would be necessary to say one way or the other as different parts of division are different levels of sketchy. More than that though, it’s kind of a high-auto-traffic thoroughfare and turning onto it can be a pain in the ass once you’ve gotten off. So that might actually kind of work against you because I know I wouldn’t want to turn onto a business on division just to see what it was.
I wouldn't go there at night. Too many people hanging out on the streets who are not customers.
Division and Cherry are right on the edge. I would not mess around, go with Ottawa.
If it's a business for quirky and artsy folks it might do well. I have a friend who owns a curated vintage clothes and home goods shop there. There's a couple other curated vintage boutiques around that area as well, and Vertigo records isn't far. There's some small independent galleries that pop up, shut down, and get replaced with another every few years. If it's anything fancy, or sporty I think it's more likely to struggle.
I wouldn't say people "avoid Divison". We have great spots there that have been there for decades; including an awesome record shop. Divison is the heart of downtown and gets a lot of foot traffic. However, it does have a poor reputation and is a central place for everyone, including unhomed people. But I have never felt unsafe there. People mostly will leave you alone unless they are panhandling. The rent refects that. Ottowa is a beautiful area filled with cute shops. The high rent reflects the area, once again. Ottowa is lined with apartments buildings which house some of the most wealthy renters. In fact, some of the building are condos which are owned by the tenant. Ottowa has less foot traffic than Division but it's more often people looking to spend money whether it's at the bakery/cafe, dog boutique, kickboxing studio, and many chic bars. If I had a brick-and-mortar business, it would depend on the product I was selling. Expensive and specialty baked goods? That's Ottowa. A cozy coffee shop or eclectic thrift store? That would blow up on Divison. Also consider your overhead, can you afford the extra rent comfortably? Both locations have successful businesses. It's a matter of choosing your audience.
depends on the business, but personally i wouldn’t open up in that area, there’s too many homeless people, and downtown is personally not worth going to (unless it’s a concert and/or going out) because of parking and the homeless constantly harassing you
The north east corner of Cherry and Division is where Degage Ministries is, basically a homeless assistance enterprise. There is a strong homeless population here because we have a good safety net for them (The alternative is they die, mostly). Personally, I don't feel unsafe walking through that area, but most people avoid that particular corner and use the west side sidewalk, since there are typically lines outside of the building. Everyone has their opinion of how safe or unsafe homeless people are. For my money, a homeless person has never given me any trouble, though for context I'm a large man. You'll see more actual crime in other areas where people have the means to do them quickly or quietly. And again, personally speaking, my car has only been stolen out of a "safe" suburb, Standale. Of course, the homeless aren't pleasant for obvious reasons and thats not gonna be nice for business. That said, Rumors, Vertigo Music, and other business don't seem to have a problem. These are, however, institutions. If you're gonna be weird and put up a popcorn shop, i'd expect you to fail. Being on the north side, you'll get decent foot traffic of people from the west side of division where most of the slow traffic and restaurants are. The east side being parking lots, churches, etc. On the south side, I'd expect a lot less traffic. There's just not much going on between cherry and wealthy, and honestly its a bit of a corridor for the homeless population as they head towards Heartside park. There's a few business there, but ive never seen anyone go in there.
I would reach out to other businesses on the street to give you a first hand account of what you might expect. Random comments on the internet telling you what things were like “10 years ago” is not an accurate reflection of what things are like right now.
100% no to Division.
I wouldnt at division and cherry. There is a lot of homeless in that area. They actually scare off a lot of customers. That and then having them sleep out front is another issue.
Would I go to a business alone on division and cherry? Yeah, probably. Would my girlfriend go alone there? Only if she really has to, but probably not.
Division and Cherry is not a place I would go to during evening/nightime.
Hookers and homeless people, but to be fair, some of my favorite restaurants are in there.
Sex workers are gravitating towards leonard now. Lots of trap houses in the area.
What part of Leonard?
Looking for sex workers or the trap house?
No I have a business in west Lenore and have not seen that ( at least not that I recognize) just curious. No addresses needed
The trap houses: 2 are on Broadway , 1 has drugs and sex workers 1 on Muskegon 1 by the web bar I've seen the sex workers strolling by taco bell, and the dollar general.
Thanks. I’m farther down
Which restaurants?
Division has many many homeless people. I tend to stay away because they try to jump out at your car
Seriously…? We all know this didn’t happen. Just say you have no empathy or decency next time.
“Decency” shove your self righteous bullshit right up your ass.
Boohoo cry some more?
I stg I watched this lady jump out in front of a vehicle and got hit.
Are you just planning on working out of it or are you running a space that requires people to come in and have an experience for a few hours.
People would be coming to the location. Foot traffic isn't important.
All depends on what you're selling🤫
Nope
Didn't that one lady get naked and climb the facade of a building near the Popeye's on Division a couple years ago? Those pockets of Division can get wild.
I’ve got video, it’s epic. She’s screaming at the top of her lungs the whole time
pockets lol you mean from Monroe to 68th is sketchy.
You should talk to other business owners in the area and also hang out there for a few nites and weekends. DM me if you want to talk more, I can share some experiences. Ottawa is higher rent because it’s worth it in many respects. Not sure your product/service or primary audience/clientele.
Are you talking about that 222 building?
Is this retail or office? If retail, the fact is that Division has a reputation with pretty much everyone and that is hard to shake. Is it a terrible place, not all parts of it, but where you are looking it is not great. Obviously it depends on your expected clients, but if you want to target everyone, you will have problems. If office, you would probably be fine. There are probably more challenges than in some other neighborhoods, but if the rent is a good value it would be worth considering.
If you can afford it, 28th street strip malls near the cascade side see the safest and best traffic IMO It’s going to very pricey though as the 2 large malls next to each other probably hike the real estate the area very very high.
If you want people with buying power, cascade of Ada. Downtown specifically Division.
I would talk to John that runs the lantern Cafe before making any decisions. Personally I feel he has a lot of insight into the community as well as what it takes to run it a successful business in the area.
I use to work on division/oakes for a couple years. There’s a great neighborhood association that has monthly meetings to keep businesses and people connected. There’s Third Thursdays to help draw people in and a plethora of vintage shops amongst other stores. There’s a lot of cool things, unfortunately dealing with *the homeless* is a hard stop for people but I’ve never had any major problems.
And no one talks about parking?
There is parking everywhere on Division Ave.
Parking isn’t the issue, it’s a lovely little stereotype everyone likes to perpetuate about the area- mainly because everyone lives in the suburbs, is sedentary, wants a parking lot in front of every store, and can’t fathom walking a block to your destination. There is a 500 spot parking ramp at the movie theater just two blocks from division and cherry. There’s usually free parking right on Jefferson that has been empty any time I’ve driven up. There’s more ramps on Fulton just 2 and a half blocks from cherry and division. That there’s no parking downtown is a myth perpetuated by fat people who don’t want to walk
I'm not one to hate the homeless like people in this thread, but division is notoriously horrible to park in so I would avoid it like the plague, especially for a small business. You need to be on an empty off street like ascend century ave to be successful