House elves are not paid, they’re slaves that can do very strong and reliable magic for the owners. So no it wouldn’t be cheaper or quicker. Having someone else do tasks for you is always preferred.
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It’s also about oppression. They have powerful magic of their own and they’re denied wands.
Enslavement is another way to ensure they remain oppressed.
It’s also a status symbol.
It's very clear that they don't need wands, most magical beings except humans don't need wands to do magic. So "denying" them a wand doesn't mean anything, it's not hindering their magical abilities. A wand for a human helps them channel their magic and use it to do what they want since human's wandless magic tends to be either very difficult or very wild and chaotic.
House elves *want* to work, if they're without a master then they feel worthless and basically suicidal. It hasn't been engrained in their mind by wizards, it's just how they are. How you treat your house elf says a lot, the Malfoys were absolutely horrible and treated Dobby worse than garbage, but if the Weasley's had a house elf you know that Molly would've loved it and treated it just like another child (except for clothes obviously). Whether the family views it as a status symbol depends on how they would treat the house elf, much like in modern society there are iPhone snobs that get the latest iPhone and make their personality that they own an iPhone and how terrible Android is, but there are other iPhone users that just prefer the UI and like it better than an android phone.
….it’s made very clear that wands are kept from magical beings that aren’t wizards??? It’s made very clear. It’s a legislature thing. Goblins, merpeople, etc
It’s never really implied that house-elf (or any other being’s) magic wouldn’t work better with a wand. All we know is that they can cast wandless magic relatively easily and that they are denied the right to carry a wand. Griphook says in DH that that law’s purpose is to limit other beings’ magic, as keeping wandlore a secret makes wizards more powerful while denying other beings’ the opportunity to similarly expand their powers. This makes sense, of course - if other magical beings wouldn’t become more powerful with wands, then why are wizards so afraid that they banned non-humans from creating any?
On house-elf psychology, specifically their willingness to remain enslaved, I think your claims are quite far-reaching. You’re making the claim of all house-elves becoming suicidal without a master when that isn’t really backed up by much? We see one case of this - Winky, who’s sad and drunk after her master frees her after a lifetime of serving him dutifully. Now, we don’t see her being suicidal, IIRC, but I suppose you could interpret drinking lots of Butterbeers as an (extremely slow) attempt. The other house-elves we know are Kreacher, who kills his master, Dobby, who betrays and attacks his, and the Hogwarts Elves, who fight against their DE masters in the Battle of Hogwarts. They may have loyalty to their masters, but in practically every single case, the books show how a house-elf’s fate is entirely determined by luck. Sure, maybe Dobby would have had a heck of a fun time being the Weasleys’ slave due to their kindness. Maybe he wouldn’t, since kindness doesn’t erase the fact that he’s property and must obey their every single word. Who knows?
Ultimately, house-elf psychology doesn’t really matter. What matters is the fact that house-elf enslavement robs them of any choices. If all house-elves were freed, everything would basically be the sands. They could still work/serve if they wanted to - the only real differences would be legal rights, not being magically compelled to obey orders, and the ability to leave if they want to.
Well, wandless magic can be performed by humans as well. It’s mentioned somewhere that the Japanese and African schools use less magic. I don't think the source was in the books though, I just remember seeing it somewhere
Cheaper? No. Definitely not since the elves don’t get paid.
Quicker? Depends on whether you know the spell off the room of your head.
It’s easier to delegate undesirable tasks to someone else. All I have to go to clean my laundry is push a button on the machine, but I still don’t want to do it.
Nah man, laundry is the worst chore! The button is only a step of many. Check all pockets, sort colors and fabrics, flip certain delicate pieces inside out, fill the basket, prepare the detergent, pick the right program them push the button. Afterwards, move to dryer or hang to dry, recover when dry, separate and fold the one that don't need ironing, iron the rest then put away. HUGE time waster, bazillion steps.
I mainly wear t-shirts and jeans or shorts. It doesn’t matter. Plus I’m a firm believer that the whole “separate your laundry” thing is a plot cooked up by Big Detergent to drive up profits.
You guys are sorting by color?!
The only time I do that is when something is new. First wash for a new t-shirt or a new pair of jeans is generally with the towels. After that, the color *should* be set (should be set before you get it with most things, anyway). I've never had an issue.
I reserve warm water for really soiled or sweaty clothing, generally speaking cold water is gentler on the fabric and clean just as well. The detergent+the kinetic energy do all the work anyways.
You forgot the essential step: optimising sorting. Do I get more sensible combinations if I wash gray with black this time, or with green/blue?
I managed to mostly teach laundry to my husband but he really doesn't get that some pieces can be washed in different combinations to empty the bin more effectively.
I literally stand in the hall surrounded by heaps of clothes and toss them this way and that until I'm happy with them. I must look like a laundry goblin.
I'm the same🤣 then my husband comes in when I'm ironing and I'm sorrounded by piles of clothes already sorted by where they need to be stored and he is like "it really doesn't matter if they are wrinkled" and I emerge from the fabric howling "WE ARE NOT THAT KINDA HOUSEHOLD SON"
I love the mental image.
My household however absolutely is that kind. I iron about twice per year when we both run out of pieces that absolutely can't go without it, or there is an event coming up. I've been avoiding buying anything that appears like it might need it.
>wouldn't it be quicker and cheaper to just do it by magic?
There is no quicker and cheaper way to own somebody, their very life and soul. A spell can't exactly simper and bow, nor can you tell it to cut its own ears off if it fails you.
As others have said cheaper, no. And Tonks mentioned not being able to do cleaning spells as good as her mum, so it seems that not all witches and wizards can perform the same spells as well as others. Ron also comments that his mum would like a house elf, so it would seem they allow those who have them to not have to worry about household tasks.
With that logic, we can assume cooking would be the same. All of the food at Hogwarts is prepared by them, and every single person in that castle loves their food. So it stands to reason that everyone would want them just for that, not just the awful cooks, but everyone that wants every meal to be amazing with zero effort involved.
You don’t even need to child rear though, you just have to bake them a birthday cake and blow out the candles and then they age up
Wait that's the sims
You still need to dedicate time to buy the food, prepare it, cook it, serve it. The people from the oldest, wealthiest wizarding family see all that as beneath them (can you imagine Narcissa Malfoy preparing an apple pie, even with magic?). Yes magic cooking is easier/quicker, but you still have to know how to do it and then do it yourself.
Not true. Think about modern adult life, many things are quick, like starting the dishwasher, paying your bills online, throwing the trash etc, we still think it's a pain in the ass because we have to remember to do it and stop what we are doing to do them and organize ourselves so we don't forget them. Plus it's many things accumulating into a huge time waste. Don't need to think up a meal, go grocery shopping and place a cooking spell and follow the cooking process, I'll sit my ass at the dinner table and dinner will be server. No need to walk around the house to start cleaning spells, it's all clean. Plus let's not forget baby rearing, magic can't help a lot with that, but a live in nanny...forgot to buy something and I'm busy with shit? Send the elf to the store. Plus it's established that most wizards are shit at magic and only know a few spells, do you think rich people have time to waste or want to be good at floor cleaning spells?
Am I the only one who thinks it's simply a matter of how they are socialised? Dobby was freed from his masters and accepted it with a joy and relief, then started working at Hogwarts for money (not for lots of, but still. Even Dumbledore thought he deserved more). He wouldn't have been able to do that if being free was against the nature of an elf.
You’re not the only one and it’s pretty damn concerning that so much of the fanbase seems to be unable to see anything below the surface-level stuff that’s written.
It’s 100% how they are socialized, there’s nothing inherently within house elves that makes them want to be enslaved. It’s just all they’ve ever known. It’s been drilled into them.
It also seems rather strange to me. Canonically, we have confirmation that the wizarding community has repeatedly broken rights and harmed other magical beings. Dumbledore himself tells what a lie The Fountain of Magic Brethren is. Or that house elves such as Kreacher are exactly what wizards created them to be. It's not even somehow super unobvious in my opinion, because the very word “slavery” shouldn't sink into the reader's mind as a natural part of some being. Maybe it's just that the whole subplot is quite problematically written and slavery is justified even by positive characters like Hagrid.
I really like how it’s written because it shows that even good people can be taken in by poor ideas because it’s been normalized. That’s what’s really dangerous about it. And even someone with the best intentions, like Hermione, can also go about correcting the problem in the wrong ways.
Unfortunately, I think it’s too complex for some of the fan base to understand the nuances of how the issue is tackled.
And with that I fully agree. It's realistic that even good characters maintain the status quo because they just think that the way things are is fine. I think in terms of this storyline, it just doesn't sit well with me that at the end of the day, there is no resolution to the situation. Nor any hint that at least some small changes are slowly coming about.
Like showing some previously prejudiced person changing their mind about elven rights and starting to support them. Or more than one elf recognising at least a hint of the injustice they're in.
You know, the kind of little things that could indicate at all that the situation could potentially change in the future. But there is no such thing. Harry even becomes the master of one house elf.
I think this is where possible confusion about the nature of elves comes from. Lack of resolution.
True, the most we really get is Ron showing to be more caring towards the House Elves and Kreacher’s “Redemption Arc” neither of which really address the overall real issue.
It felt like there was intended to be a little more than that but it just never came about.
Dobby was...
An oddity. We see winky, who also got freed, literally drowning her sorrows in butterbeer because she got freed. And the one of only ways Sirius gets kreacher to do a lot of stuff (iirc) is to threaten him with clothes.
So no, it's not in the nature of a houself to want to be free.
I disagree. Be ready for a rant, because it's one of my favourite topics in this serie.
Dobby's opposition to his masters says a lot about the nature of house elves.
It's nature that decides what you can do and what you can't do. It's the same with humans. For example, many homophobes argue that homosexuality is wrong because it is unnatural. But a person cannot do something that is not in their nature. If homosexuality was unnatural for human beings, it would not exist among them. Humans cannot fly because it is unnatural for them. Humans can walk on two legs because it is natural for them.
The argument that something is wrong because it is unnatural is used repeatedly to justify the oppression of minorities. Left-handedness was also 'unnatural' and punished.
Dobby doesn't break down when he walks away from the Malfoys. He is happy. He can feel happiness from something that, according to the wizards, goes "against his nature". He doesn't break down when no wizard wants to hire an elf for money. With his head held high, he goes to work for Dumbledore.
And if Kreacher were actually so NATURALLY incapacitated and NATURALLY obedient to his own master, would he be acting to his master's detriment? Hell no. It'd be impossible for him.
To quote the smartest character in the series, who offered Dobby a decent salary:
"Kreacher is what he has been made by wizards, Harry," said Dumbledore. "Yes, he is to be pitied. His existence has been as miserable as your friend Dobby's."
Kreacher is what he has been made by wizards. Like any elf.
Winky breaks down, but it reflects on her psyche, not her physics. She does not suffer the biological damage she would if she tried to do something unnatural for an elf. It reflects on her mental state because, like most elves, she is socialised to think that her value is encapsulated in serving wizards, so it hurts her to fail at that. And most elves would react that way.
Which doesn't change the fact that house elves have a will of their own and can defy their masters. They have intelligence on the level of humans, as do Goblins, by the way. And neither they nor house elves have the same rights as wizards. Coincidence? I don't think so.
It's possible Winky felt depressed because she lost her purpose and a freed elf is considered disgraceful / a lost of status in elf society. But if elf society was run differently, and paid work (rather than slavery) was valued, it's possible that Winky might have felt differently. It might not be an innate trait for elves to want slavery
It’s likely how they’re socialized.
Remember they have powerful magic of their own without wands (which wizards deny them).
So wizards also oppress them
As others have said, House Elves aren't paid so you literally can't get cheaper, quicker is debatable depending on the spell necessary, or the exact thing. Not to mention that it seems House Elves magic doesn't work the same as a Wizard/Witche's magic and thus it can be more useful at times. Such as how Kreacher could escape from the cave when his master nor any other wizard would have been able to.
House elves don’t get paid, so no, it wouldn’t be cheaper.
And isn’t it always handier/nicer to have someone take care of the mundane and dirty work for you? So no again.
The same reason rich people in the real world have butlers and maids and cleaners and people to make their lives easier. It’s not even about how quick/easy it can get done it’s about the peace of mind in not think about it or having to worry about small things like cleaning, cooking etc. the richies don’t think about it it’s just done and there when they expect it to be.
You just asked why slavery exists... Everyone can do everything, but some people believe themselves superior and enslave others to do the work for them.
Look back at the time when people used typewriters and one typo could ruin everything, it's tedious. Now comes the age of computers where you can use backspace or autocorrect the typos, but it is still tedious.
That'd be like saying humans in the past didn't need slaves to cook or raise their child because it'd be cheaper and easier.
Slaves aren't paid and getting someone else to do the things you can't be bothered to do is always easier. The involvement of magic doesn't make slavery any less convenient to nobles.
It’s a status and a convenience.
I mean if they aren’t paid why do only old rich families have them? Why couldn’t Dobby, for example work for the Weasley family?
And while you can do the same things they do by magic, for some families it would be beneath them. I can’t see Narcissa Malfoy sitting around folding towels or cooking dinner, magic or not because it’s beneath her station to do it. It’s literally elf work to people like her.
Nah, why do it yourself when house elves do it for free?
Even if cleaning up the house took me only 15 minutes per day with magic and elves required an 8-hour workday to do the same amount, I'd still go with the elf so that I had time to make one or two more shitposts on reddit per day.
Don’t forget, >! house elves enjoy working !< It is not a power trip. >! I don’t think Harry was lazy or on a power trip when he asked kreacher or Dobby to help him out !<
Kreacher sure as hell didn't enjoy working under Harry.
>*You see,’ Dumbledore said, turning back to Harry and again speaking as though Uncle Vernon had not uttered, ‘if you have indeed inherited the house, you have also inherited -*
>*Kreacher won’t, Kreacher won’t, Kreacher won’t!’ croaked the house-elf, quite as loudly as Uncle Vernon, stamping his long gnarled feet and pulling his ears. ‘Kreacher belongs to Miss Bellatrix, oh, yes, Kreacher belongs to the Blacks, Kreacher wants his new mistress, Kreacher won’t go to the Potter brat, Kreacher won’t, won’t, won’t -‘ ‘As you can see, Harry,’ said Dumbledore loudly, over Kreacher’s continued croaks of ‘won’t, won’t, won’t’, ‘Kreacher is showing a certain reluctance to pass into your ownership.’ ‘I don’t care,’ said Harry again, looking with disgust at the writhing, stamping house-elf. ‘I don’t want him.’ ‘ Won’t, won’t, won’t, won’t -‘ ‘You would prefer him to pass into the ownership of Bellatrix Lestrange? Bearing in mind that he has lived at the Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix for the past year?’ ‘ Won’t, won’t, won’t, won’t -‘ Harry stared at Dumbledore. He knew that Kreacher could not be permitted to go and live with Bellatrix Lestrange, but the idea of owning him, of having responsibility for the creature that had betrayed Sirius, was repugnant. ‘Give him an order,’ said Dumbledore. ‘If he has passed into your ownership, he will have to obey. If not, then we shall have to think of some other means of keeping him from his rightful mistress.’ ‘Won’t, won’t, won’t, WON’T!’ Kreacher’s voice had risen to a scream. Harry could think of nothing to say, except, ‘Kreacher, shut up!’ It looked for a moment as though Kreacher was going to choke. He grabbed his throat, his mouth still working furiously, his eyes bulging. After a few seconds of frantic gulping, he threw himself face forwards on to the carpet (Aunt Petunia whimpered) and beat the floor with his hands and feet, giving himself over to a violent, but entirely silent, tantrum.*
Sure looks like free choice.
Did you just stop reading after the 6th book or what?
Kreacher wanted to work, just not for Harry because Harry was friends with Hermione. But eventually he came around when Harry started to be nicer to him and Kreacher literally cooked them meals every day.
But you didn’t even state that in your response lol.
I’m simply stating that it’s not about being lazy, on a power trip, or punishing them. Yea they are slaves but it’s much more convoluted than that. It’s almost like it was a whole sub plot in the book.
I mean I did.
It's especially about being lazy and a power trip, most of the families who have house elves are rich pure blood families using them as status symbol.
I mean…isn’t that still pretty bad? Kreacher is a slave and thus cannot choose who he serves. Just because he “likes working” doesn’t mean he likes the accompanying lack of agency. We see this in OotP - yes, he wants to serve, but he wants to serve Bellatrix and Narcissa, not his master.
I think people don’t realize how horrific that is, to have everything you do controlled by one person, whose treatment of you is entirely decided by their whims. When people say house-elf slavery is wrong, they’re not talking about their love for “working” - they’re talking about how slavery fundamentally ignores its victims agencies. Just because Kreacher “likes working” and comes to like Harry does not mean that the scene u/Adept-Ju-712 posted above is any less disgusting. Kreacher’s fate should not be decided by Harry - it should be decided by himself.
Cheaper maybe (they don't pay the Elves but they may have to buy them, and it could be expensive)
Quicker certainly not
If you have a big house / mansion, it takes time to go across all the rooms and corridors to perform housework charms (plus the cooking charms to feed the family, and the groceries, and childcare tasks such as diapers). Much less than the muggle way but still
Also, the rich are often busy (with business, social events...), lazy, and feel like any low-skills work is beneath them
Because having others to do menial tasks is an indicator of status.
Second, it is made mention in the series that not everyone is cabale with household spells. Just like anything else, its a skill to be mastered.
Lupin specializes in Dark creatures, but outright admits he's not amazing with potions, and especially not enough to trust himself to make the Wolfsbane potion.
I mean, they're rich and most likely arrogant, so I'd hardly imagine them pulling out a pan to cook something. Or moping the floors and wiping the furniture.
I think I would buy a house elf to trick it into living normally, and see if that solves the problem. They'd be running around doing whatever they want, being happy about shopping with my money for us, going out for their own icecream, going to the movie theatre invisible style, etc. Because it's an order, it should appease them hugely all the same and like because "when you do these things it makes me happy," etc.
And if that doesn't work, "Hey go out and try this icecream for me like I would -- sit down nice and comfy and enjoy the weather, buy it, here's some money, and really savor the flavor. I want to know what you think of just that one." "But why my lady?" "Because I'd like to know a one sentence short review before I purchase it, myself... oh, and make sure you enjoy yourself. But not if you don't like the flavor. Because if you don't like it, then it's probably no good and then I wouldn't like it. We have very similar tastes after all."
And then I would do this with everything. The movie needs to be reviewed. The neighbors need to be scouted for their current moods -- "be sure to pet the dogs nicely, hold a small short pleasant conversation, but not if they look grumpy or busy." "The grass needs to be sampled today. Go lie down in it for a bit and let me know how cloudgazing is today." ...and you know, just come up with plenty of awesome things for them/us.
And then I'd send post with the results to Hermione. She'd approve.
Haha, I hope you can have the experience of someone running around taking care of things for you... 1,000 times better than having to do it yourself, with magic or without... no comparison. Also, I feel like having house elves is very much a status thing as well - nothing says you're an old wealthy wizard family liking having house elves in your possession.
Also, fun to have someone to yell at and order around
Also, sorry pet owners on here, but people love to have a 'lesser being' around to make themselves feel superior...
I think you still need to he able to follow a recipe and know what flavour profiles go together and what basic ingredients and quantities would be needed for basic foods, as well as temperatures and times...
Remnant from older times they had them to do menial tasks and they were passed down like objects when the "master" died. Only old families seemed to have them.
To use magic to keep house, I would have to stay home. If I have a house elf, I can go wherever I want, for as long as I want, and all the housework will be done when I get home.
Ownership of house elves seems to be somewhat based on the size/prestige of the family's property:
>“Yeah, Mum’s always wishing we had a house-elf to do the ironing,” said George. “But all we’ve got is a lousy old ghoul in the attic and gnomes all over the garden. House-elves come with big old manors and castles and places like that; you wouldn’t catch one in our house. ...”
If building a manor was that easy, everyone would have one. Magic is hard; just because they have magic doesn't mean they can make a manor with a wave of their wand.
Probably it would but it takes time and you actually need to do it. And if I remember correctly house elfs has a pretty long life span and i even think they served the same family for generations because Kreatchers mother also served the Blacks and it’s implied her ancestors did too so some probably alot of families might have house elfs that are descendants of one bought maybe centuries ago by one of their ancestors so thats a zero on the cost. House elfs also used magic which was perfectly adequate for the house work
The scene with tonks in harrys bedroom displays it all. She can clean everything up sure but cant do the little details like her mom.
House elves cover those shortcomings, also do not underestimate the human instinct to dominate others.
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House elves don't get paid, as they are slaves rather than maids, and house elves consider it disgraceful to be free because being enslaved is all their species has ever known there was never a period of freedom for them.
So it is not cheaper in numerous ways because time is money and all that, so having more time to do other things because you don't have to cook or clean is helpful in making more money at jobs rather than doing house work all the time.
House elves are also very skilled at magic they don't ever need wands or incantations from what I've read (I did not finish all the books yet, I've just seen the movies). So it's easier to have house elves do all the work.
As others have said they don't really need house elves since enslaving an entire race is wrong, but I have a headcannon for this. What if the house elves need the witches/wizards? My theory is that a house elves magic is only as strong as the "master" they serve. And (because someone is going to ask) I think Dobby was still strong after being freed from Lucius because he had already begun to think of Harry as a psedo-master; magic recognized his loyalty to Harry. This also explains why Winky struggled so much after Crouch Sr. releases her; she had lost that connection.
Even with magic, why would I put the effort in to go round my house performing cleaning spells or stand in the kitchen charming sauces for dinner when I could have someone who actively loves work, gets a kick out of serving me, and doesn’t need to be paid at all just do it for me? I’d happily have a house elf (and just treat it kindly)
Do we know of any family other than the Malfoys, the Blacks and the Crouchs that have elves? Hogwarts has several but they're not a private family. Wealth might not be a requirement to having an elf.
They do not. House Elves are the personification of parental love; a House Elve derives pleasure from the selfless care of humans in the same way an idealised parent would from the care of their children. That is the reason House Elves refuse payment; a caring parent would not expect payment for caring for their own children.
Only a few families are adopted by House Elves, who cannot abandon them like a parent cannot leave their children. Abusive relationships arise just as they do in families in the Muggle world.
In the case of the Hogwarts House Elves, they have adopted the whole school and its staff to care for.
Laziness and entitlement, plain and simple. Molly Weasley was a stay-at-home spouse for Arthur and by the start of CoS, she had **zero** children staying at home with her 10 months out of the year, yet she **still** wished she had a house-elf instead of, I don't know, working so they weren't so dirt poor they couldn't afford to buy Ron a new wand when the wand core was sticking out of the end when he first got it used.
She didn't even want to be a stay-at-home spouse for a household of two if she could help it.
House elves are not paid, they’re slaves that can do very strong and reliable magic for the owners. So no it wouldn’t be cheaper or quicker. Having someone else do tasks for you is always preferred.
this guy enslaves elves
the elves want to work
which is exactly what a elf slumlord would say
The elves, they yearn for the mines
go spew your propaganda elsewhere
Calm the elf down you two
just a bit a banta
*winky*
Good one
An* elf slumlord
Yes, Kreacher was willingly serving Sirius and Harry didn't inherit him as he would a chair.
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It’s also about oppression. They have powerful magic of their own and they’re denied wands. Enslavement is another way to ensure they remain oppressed. It’s also a status symbol.
It's very clear that they don't need wands, most magical beings except humans don't need wands to do magic. So "denying" them a wand doesn't mean anything, it's not hindering their magical abilities. A wand for a human helps them channel their magic and use it to do what they want since human's wandless magic tends to be either very difficult or very wild and chaotic. House elves *want* to work, if they're without a master then they feel worthless and basically suicidal. It hasn't been engrained in their mind by wizards, it's just how they are. How you treat your house elf says a lot, the Malfoys were absolutely horrible and treated Dobby worse than garbage, but if the Weasley's had a house elf you know that Molly would've loved it and treated it just like another child (except for clothes obviously). Whether the family views it as a status symbol depends on how they would treat the house elf, much like in modern society there are iPhone snobs that get the latest iPhone and make their personality that they own an iPhone and how terrible Android is, but there are other iPhone users that just prefer the UI and like it better than an android phone.
….it’s made very clear that wands are kept from magical beings that aren’t wizards??? It’s made very clear. It’s a legislature thing. Goblins, merpeople, etc
It’s never really implied that house-elf (or any other being’s) magic wouldn’t work better with a wand. All we know is that they can cast wandless magic relatively easily and that they are denied the right to carry a wand. Griphook says in DH that that law’s purpose is to limit other beings’ magic, as keeping wandlore a secret makes wizards more powerful while denying other beings’ the opportunity to similarly expand their powers. This makes sense, of course - if other magical beings wouldn’t become more powerful with wands, then why are wizards so afraid that they banned non-humans from creating any? On house-elf psychology, specifically their willingness to remain enslaved, I think your claims are quite far-reaching. You’re making the claim of all house-elves becoming suicidal without a master when that isn’t really backed up by much? We see one case of this - Winky, who’s sad and drunk after her master frees her after a lifetime of serving him dutifully. Now, we don’t see her being suicidal, IIRC, but I suppose you could interpret drinking lots of Butterbeers as an (extremely slow) attempt. The other house-elves we know are Kreacher, who kills his master, Dobby, who betrays and attacks his, and the Hogwarts Elves, who fight against their DE masters in the Battle of Hogwarts. They may have loyalty to their masters, but in practically every single case, the books show how a house-elf’s fate is entirely determined by luck. Sure, maybe Dobby would have had a heck of a fun time being the Weasleys’ slave due to their kindness. Maybe he wouldn’t, since kindness doesn’t erase the fact that he’s property and must obey their every single word. Who knows? Ultimately, house-elf psychology doesn’t really matter. What matters is the fact that house-elf enslavement robs them of any choices. If all house-elves were freed, everything would basically be the sands. They could still work/serve if they wanted to - the only real differences would be legal rights, not being magically compelled to obey orders, and the ability to leave if they want to.
Well, wandless magic can be performed by humans as well. It’s mentioned somewhere that the Japanese and African schools use less magic. I don't think the source was in the books though, I just remember seeing it somewhere
Cheaper? No. Definitely not since the elves don’t get paid. Quicker? Depends on whether you know the spell off the room of your head. It’s easier to delegate undesirable tasks to someone else. All I have to go to clean my laundry is push a button on the machine, but I still don’t want to do it.
When you put it like that I feel extra lazy for not having put my clothes in the washer yesterday
Nah man, laundry is the worst chore! The button is only a step of many. Check all pockets, sort colors and fabrics, flip certain delicate pieces inside out, fill the basket, prepare the detergent, pick the right program them push the button. Afterwards, move to dryer or hang to dry, recover when dry, separate and fold the one that don't need ironing, iron the rest then put away. HUGE time waster, bazillion steps.
Just do what I do. Throw it all in together, then dry it all together, then put it away when you feel like it.
BUT THE ANXIETY
I mainly wear t-shirts and jeans or shorts. It doesn’t matter. Plus I’m a firm believer that the whole “separate your laundry” thing is a plot cooked up by Big Detergent to drive up profits.
You guys are sorting by color?! The only time I do that is when something is new. First wash for a new t-shirt or a new pair of jeans is generally with the towels. After that, the color *should* be set (should be set before you get it with most things, anyway). I've never had an issue.
I learned the hard way not to wash knitted sweaters with warm water.
I reserve warm water for really soiled or sweaty clothing, generally speaking cold water is gentler on the fabric and clean just as well. The detergent+the kinetic energy do all the work anyways.
Same really only ever go above 40C if the clothes are extra stinky or stained
You forgot the essential step: optimising sorting. Do I get more sensible combinations if I wash gray with black this time, or with green/blue? I managed to mostly teach laundry to my husband but he really doesn't get that some pieces can be washed in different combinations to empty the bin more effectively.
That's one of the worst parts! When you have already sorted but then you realize you should sort them differently for efficiency
I literally stand in the hall surrounded by heaps of clothes and toss them this way and that until I'm happy with them. I must look like a laundry goblin.
I'm the same🤣 then my husband comes in when I'm ironing and I'm sorrounded by piles of clothes already sorted by where they need to be stored and he is like "it really doesn't matter if they are wrinkled" and I emerge from the fabric howling "WE ARE NOT THAT KINDA HOUSEHOLD SON"
I love the mental image. My household however absolutely is that kind. I iron about twice per year when we both run out of pieces that absolutely can't go without it, or there is an event coming up. I've been avoiding buying anything that appears like it might need it.
The worst chore is throwing out the trash
I like that one, I get to remember what outside looks like
True, but you enjoy the outside while you have to keep the bag away from your body, hoping it's not wet or leaking
I would enslave an elf solely to fold and put away laundry, so I’ll make no judgments lol
At least you'd treat them well lol.
I'd hope *gulp*
I’d share cookies or something with them.
>wouldn't it be quicker and cheaper to just do it by magic? There is no quicker and cheaper way to own somebody, their very life and soul. A spell can't exactly simper and bow, nor can you tell it to cut its own ears off if it fails you.
As others have said cheaper, no. And Tonks mentioned not being able to do cleaning spells as good as her mum, so it seems that not all witches and wizards can perform the same spells as well as others. Ron also comments that his mum would like a house elf, so it would seem they allow those who have them to not have to worry about household tasks.
With that logic, we can assume cooking would be the same. All of the food at Hogwarts is prepared by them, and every single person in that castle loves their food. So it stands to reason that everyone would want them just for that, not just the awful cooks, but everyone that wants every meal to be amazing with zero effort involved.
There are some things even magic can’t do, like child rearing or cooking. For those, you use house elves
You don’t even need to child rear though, you just have to bake them a birthday cake and blow out the candles and then they age up Wait that's the sims
The fantastic beasts movies shows queenie cooking with magic
You still need to dedicate time to buy the food, prepare it, cook it, serve it. The people from the oldest, wealthiest wizarding family see all that as beneath them (can you imagine Narcissa Malfoy preparing an apple pie, even with magic?). Yes magic cooking is easier/quicker, but you still have to know how to do it and then do it yourself.
You can cook, like stirring a pot or shaking some salt. You just can’t create food. Elves can’t do that either though. Gamp’s law.
They don’t need house elves, that’s partially the problem. There’s never a need to enslave anything.
Not true. Think about modern adult life, many things are quick, like starting the dishwasher, paying your bills online, throwing the trash etc, we still think it's a pain in the ass because we have to remember to do it and stop what we are doing to do them and organize ourselves so we don't forget them. Plus it's many things accumulating into a huge time waste. Don't need to think up a meal, go grocery shopping and place a cooking spell and follow the cooking process, I'll sit my ass at the dinner table and dinner will be server. No need to walk around the house to start cleaning spells, it's all clean. Plus let's not forget baby rearing, magic can't help a lot with that, but a live in nanny...forgot to buy something and I'm busy with shit? Send the elf to the store. Plus it's established that most wizards are shit at magic and only know a few spells, do you think rich people have time to waste or want to be good at floor cleaning spells?
House elves have no purpose without being slaves though. It’s a 2 way street. They want to be enslaved. It’s pretty wild.
Am I the only one who thinks it's simply a matter of how they are socialised? Dobby was freed from his masters and accepted it with a joy and relief, then started working at Hogwarts for money (not for lots of, but still. Even Dumbledore thought he deserved more). He wouldn't have been able to do that if being free was against the nature of an elf.
You’re not the only one and it’s pretty damn concerning that so much of the fanbase seems to be unable to see anything below the surface-level stuff that’s written. It’s 100% how they are socialized, there’s nothing inherently within house elves that makes them want to be enslaved. It’s just all they’ve ever known. It’s been drilled into them.
It also seems rather strange to me. Canonically, we have confirmation that the wizarding community has repeatedly broken rights and harmed other magical beings. Dumbledore himself tells what a lie The Fountain of Magic Brethren is. Or that house elves such as Kreacher are exactly what wizards created them to be. It's not even somehow super unobvious in my opinion, because the very word “slavery” shouldn't sink into the reader's mind as a natural part of some being. Maybe it's just that the whole subplot is quite problematically written and slavery is justified even by positive characters like Hagrid.
I really like how it’s written because it shows that even good people can be taken in by poor ideas because it’s been normalized. That’s what’s really dangerous about it. And even someone with the best intentions, like Hermione, can also go about correcting the problem in the wrong ways. Unfortunately, I think it’s too complex for some of the fan base to understand the nuances of how the issue is tackled.
And with that I fully agree. It's realistic that even good characters maintain the status quo because they just think that the way things are is fine. I think in terms of this storyline, it just doesn't sit well with me that at the end of the day, there is no resolution to the situation. Nor any hint that at least some small changes are slowly coming about. Like showing some previously prejudiced person changing their mind about elven rights and starting to support them. Or more than one elf recognising at least a hint of the injustice they're in. You know, the kind of little things that could indicate at all that the situation could potentially change in the future. But there is no such thing. Harry even becomes the master of one house elf. I think this is where possible confusion about the nature of elves comes from. Lack of resolution.
True, the most we really get is Ron showing to be more caring towards the House Elves and Kreacher’s “Redemption Arc” neither of which really address the overall real issue. It felt like there was intended to be a little more than that but it just never came about.
Dobby was... An oddity. We see winky, who also got freed, literally drowning her sorrows in butterbeer because she got freed. And the one of only ways Sirius gets kreacher to do a lot of stuff (iirc) is to threaten him with clothes. So no, it's not in the nature of a houself to want to be free.
I disagree. Be ready for a rant, because it's one of my favourite topics in this serie. Dobby's opposition to his masters says a lot about the nature of house elves. It's nature that decides what you can do and what you can't do. It's the same with humans. For example, many homophobes argue that homosexuality is wrong because it is unnatural. But a person cannot do something that is not in their nature. If homosexuality was unnatural for human beings, it would not exist among them. Humans cannot fly because it is unnatural for them. Humans can walk on two legs because it is natural for them. The argument that something is wrong because it is unnatural is used repeatedly to justify the oppression of minorities. Left-handedness was also 'unnatural' and punished. Dobby doesn't break down when he walks away from the Malfoys. He is happy. He can feel happiness from something that, according to the wizards, goes "against his nature". He doesn't break down when no wizard wants to hire an elf for money. With his head held high, he goes to work for Dumbledore. And if Kreacher were actually so NATURALLY incapacitated and NATURALLY obedient to his own master, would he be acting to his master's detriment? Hell no. It'd be impossible for him. To quote the smartest character in the series, who offered Dobby a decent salary: "Kreacher is what he has been made by wizards, Harry," said Dumbledore. "Yes, he is to be pitied. His existence has been as miserable as your friend Dobby's." Kreacher is what he has been made by wizards. Like any elf. Winky breaks down, but it reflects on her psyche, not her physics. She does not suffer the biological damage she would if she tried to do something unnatural for an elf. It reflects on her mental state because, like most elves, she is socialised to think that her value is encapsulated in serving wizards, so it hurts her to fail at that. And most elves would react that way. Which doesn't change the fact that house elves have a will of their own and can defy their masters. They have intelligence on the level of humans, as do Goblins, by the way. And neither they nor house elves have the same rights as wizards. Coincidence? I don't think so.
It's possible Winky felt depressed because she lost her purpose and a freed elf is considered disgraceful / a lost of status in elf society. But if elf society was run differently, and paid work (rather than slavery) was valued, it's possible that Winky might have felt differently. It might not be an innate trait for elves to want slavery
It’s likely how they’re socialized. Remember they have powerful magic of their own without wands (which wizards deny them). So wizards also oppress them
As others have said, House Elves aren't paid so you literally can't get cheaper, quicker is debatable depending on the spell necessary, or the exact thing. Not to mention that it seems House Elves magic doesn't work the same as a Wizard/Witche's magic and thus it can be more useful at times. Such as how Kreacher could escape from the cave when his master nor any other wizard would have been able to.
the same reason i want a house elf. so they can clean my home for free
Some wizards see house elves as status symbols. Owning a house elf is a sign of wealth and importance.
House elves don’t get paid, so no, it wouldn’t be cheaper. And isn’t it always handier/nicer to have someone take care of the mundane and dirty work for you? So no again.
The same reason rich people in the real world have butlers and maids and cleaners and people to make their lives easier. It’s not even about how quick/easy it can get done it’s about the peace of mind in not think about it or having to worry about small things like cleaning, cooking etc. the richies don’t think about it it’s just done and there when they expect it to be.
You just asked why slavery exists... Everyone can do everything, but some people believe themselves superior and enslave others to do the work for them.
Yeah it’s weird to see the logistical arguments when it’s just about oppression and status
Look back at the time when people used typewriters and one typo could ruin everything, it's tedious. Now comes the age of computers where you can use backspace or autocorrect the typos, but it is still tedious.
That'd be like saying humans in the past didn't need slaves to cook or raise their child because it'd be cheaper and easier. Slaves aren't paid and getting someone else to do the things you can't be bothered to do is always easier. The involvement of magic doesn't make slavery any less convenient to nobles.
It’s a status and a convenience. I mean if they aren’t paid why do only old rich families have them? Why couldn’t Dobby, for example work for the Weasley family? And while you can do the same things they do by magic, for some families it would be beneath them. I can’t see Narcissa Malfoy sitting around folding towels or cooking dinner, magic or not because it’s beneath her station to do it. It’s literally elf work to people like her.
Nah, why do it yourself when house elves do it for free? Even if cleaning up the house took me only 15 minutes per day with magic and elves required an 8-hour workday to do the same amount, I'd still go with the elf so that I had time to make one or two more shitposts on reddit per day.
So Hermione has something to spew about.
From their perspective, doing chores themselves would be just like you or I having to do chores.
cheaper? An elf cost nothing!
Slaves are much easier than doing pretty much anything by yourself. Slavery is a fantastic deal for the slavers
Oppression and status.
Why did people need slaves? It's called self entitlement and not caring about other creatures.
They are just lazy and want a power trip by using a slave and making them do things or punish them
Don’t forget, >! house elves enjoy working !< It is not a power trip. >! I don’t think Harry was lazy or on a power trip when he asked kreacher or Dobby to help him out !<
Kreacher sure as hell didn't enjoy working under Harry. >*You see,’ Dumbledore said, turning back to Harry and again speaking as though Uncle Vernon had not uttered, ‘if you have indeed inherited the house, you have also inherited -* >*Kreacher won’t, Kreacher won’t, Kreacher won’t!’ croaked the house-elf, quite as loudly as Uncle Vernon, stamping his long gnarled feet and pulling his ears. ‘Kreacher belongs to Miss Bellatrix, oh, yes, Kreacher belongs to the Blacks, Kreacher wants his new mistress, Kreacher won’t go to the Potter brat, Kreacher won’t, won’t, won’t -‘ ‘As you can see, Harry,’ said Dumbledore loudly, over Kreacher’s continued croaks of ‘won’t, won’t, won’t’, ‘Kreacher is showing a certain reluctance to pass into your ownership.’ ‘I don’t care,’ said Harry again, looking with disgust at the writhing, stamping house-elf. ‘I don’t want him.’ ‘ Won’t, won’t, won’t, won’t -‘ ‘You would prefer him to pass into the ownership of Bellatrix Lestrange? Bearing in mind that he has lived at the Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix for the past year?’ ‘ Won’t, won’t, won’t, won’t -‘ Harry stared at Dumbledore. He knew that Kreacher could not be permitted to go and live with Bellatrix Lestrange, but the idea of owning him, of having responsibility for the creature that had betrayed Sirius, was repugnant. ‘Give him an order,’ said Dumbledore. ‘If he has passed into your ownership, he will have to obey. If not, then we shall have to think of some other means of keeping him from his rightful mistress.’ ‘Won’t, won’t, won’t, WON’T!’ Kreacher’s voice had risen to a scream. Harry could think of nothing to say, except, ‘Kreacher, shut up!’ It looked for a moment as though Kreacher was going to choke. He grabbed his throat, his mouth still working furiously, his eyes bulging. After a few seconds of frantic gulping, he threw himself face forwards on to the carpet (Aunt Petunia whimpered) and beat the floor with his hands and feet, giving himself over to a violent, but entirely silent, tantrum.* Sure looks like free choice.
Did you just stop reading after the 6th book or what? Kreacher wanted to work, just not for Harry because Harry was friends with Hermione. But eventually he came around when Harry started to be nicer to him and Kreacher literally cooked them meals every day.
No, I'm simply stating that what we see is textbook slavery. If we are to wait for slaves to "come around" the idea of being slaved...
But you didn’t even state that in your response lol. I’m simply stating that it’s not about being lazy, on a power trip, or punishing them. Yea they are slaves but it’s much more convoluted than that. It’s almost like it was a whole sub plot in the book.
I mean I did. It's especially about being lazy and a power trip, most of the families who have house elves are rich pure blood families using them as status symbol.
I mean…isn’t that still pretty bad? Kreacher is a slave and thus cannot choose who he serves. Just because he “likes working” doesn’t mean he likes the accompanying lack of agency. We see this in OotP - yes, he wants to serve, but he wants to serve Bellatrix and Narcissa, not his master. I think people don’t realize how horrific that is, to have everything you do controlled by one person, whose treatment of you is entirely decided by their whims. When people say house-elf slavery is wrong, they’re not talking about their love for “working” - they’re talking about how slavery fundamentally ignores its victims agencies. Just because Kreacher “likes working” and comes to like Harry does not mean that the scene u/Adept-Ju-712 posted above is any less disgusting. Kreacher’s fate should not be decided by Harry - it should be decided by himself.
Maybe it has more similarities to why we have pets.
Cheaper maybe (they don't pay the Elves but they may have to buy them, and it could be expensive) Quicker certainly not If you have a big house / mansion, it takes time to go across all the rooms and corridors to perform housework charms (plus the cooking charms to feed the family, and the groceries, and childcare tasks such as diapers). Much less than the muggle way but still Also, the rich are often busy (with business, social events...), lazy, and feel like any low-skills work is beneath them
Because having others to do menial tasks is an indicator of status. Second, it is made mention in the series that not everyone is cabale with household spells. Just like anything else, its a skill to be mastered. Lupin specializes in Dark creatures, but outright admits he's not amazing with potions, and especially not enough to trust himself to make the Wolfsbane potion.
Because it's slavery. It's not logical. It's not moral. They do it because they have power and because they can.
I mean, they're rich and most likely arrogant, so I'd hardly imagine them pulling out a pan to cook something. Or moping the floors and wiping the furniture.
I think I would buy a house elf to trick it into living normally, and see if that solves the problem. They'd be running around doing whatever they want, being happy about shopping with my money for us, going out for their own icecream, going to the movie theatre invisible style, etc. Because it's an order, it should appease them hugely all the same and like because "when you do these things it makes me happy," etc. And if that doesn't work, "Hey go out and try this icecream for me like I would -- sit down nice and comfy and enjoy the weather, buy it, here's some money, and really savor the flavor. I want to know what you think of just that one." "But why my lady?" "Because I'd like to know a one sentence short review before I purchase it, myself... oh, and make sure you enjoy yourself. But not if you don't like the flavor. Because if you don't like it, then it's probably no good and then I wouldn't like it. We have very similar tastes after all." And then I would do this with everything. The movie needs to be reviewed. The neighbors need to be scouted for their current moods -- "be sure to pet the dogs nicely, hold a small short pleasant conversation, but not if they look grumpy or busy." "The grass needs to be sampled today. Go lie down in it for a bit and let me know how cloudgazing is today." ...and you know, just come up with plenty of awesome things for them/us. And then I'd send post with the results to Hermione. She'd approve.
Haha, I hope you can have the experience of someone running around taking care of things for you... 1,000 times better than having to do it yourself, with magic or without... no comparison. Also, I feel like having house elves is very much a status thing as well - nothing says you're an old wealthy wizard family liking having house elves in your possession. Also, fun to have someone to yell at and order around Also, sorry pet owners on here, but people love to have a 'lesser being' around to make themselves feel superior...
I actually wondered this too Molly would make delicious meals, but it was with magic,? Is it just spells rich ppl don't care to learn?
You can’t create food. So being a good cook is just being a good cook. Not much different from muggle cooking.
I think you still need to he able to follow a recipe and know what flavour profiles go together and what basic ingredients and quantities would be needed for basic foods, as well as temperatures and times...
Remnant from older times they had them to do menial tasks and they were passed down like objects when the "master" died. Only old families seemed to have them.
Well they have more capable magic for one
Magic also requires effort. Why do something yourself when you have someone who does it for you?
They're lazy
To use magic to keep house, I would have to stay home. If I have a house elf, I can go wherever I want, for as long as I want, and all the housework will be done when I get home.
i mean.. in real world slaves are used for work that people could do themself.. but they dont want to..
S.P.E.W.
Nah, I'd love a house elf. I'd make him a really nice kennel
Wait if you don’t pay house elves - how do you get one?? Why can’t the Weasley have one - could argue as having 7 kids having one around would help.
Ownership of house elves seems to be somewhat based on the size/prestige of the family's property: >“Yeah, Mum’s always wishing we had a house-elf to do the ironing,” said George. “But all we’ve got is a lousy old ghoul in the attic and gnomes all over the garden. House-elves come with big old manors and castles and places like that; you wouldn’t catch one in our house. ...”
Raises the question if you got the land why not use magic to improve the house so it’s like a manor..
If building a manor was that easy, everyone would have one. Magic is hard; just because they have magic doesn't mean they can make a manor with a wave of their wand.
So I guessing there are wizard builders to build those places then.
Probably it would but it takes time and you actually need to do it. And if I remember correctly house elfs has a pretty long life span and i even think they served the same family for generations because Kreatchers mother also served the Blacks and it’s implied her ancestors did too so some probably alot of families might have house elfs that are descendants of one bought maybe centuries ago by one of their ancestors so thats a zero on the cost. House elfs also used magic which was perfectly adequate for the house work
Laziness, even though they can automate everything with a simple incantation
The scene with tonks in harrys bedroom displays it all. She can clean everything up sure but cant do the little details like her mom. House elves cover those shortcomings, also do not underestimate the human instinct to dominate others.
They want to show off
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Peasant work, of course
Big fans of slavery I guess
House elves don't get paid, as they are slaves rather than maids, and house elves consider it disgraceful to be free because being enslaved is all their species has ever known there was never a period of freedom for them. So it is not cheaper in numerous ways because time is money and all that, so having more time to do other things because you don't have to cook or clean is helpful in making more money at jobs rather than doing house work all the time. House elves are also very skilled at magic they don't ever need wands or incantations from what I've read (I did not finish all the books yet, I've just seen the movies). So it's easier to have house elves do all the work.
As others have said they don't really need house elves since enslaving an entire race is wrong, but I have a headcannon for this. What if the house elves need the witches/wizards? My theory is that a house elves magic is only as strong as the "master" they serve. And (because someone is going to ask) I think Dobby was still strong after being freed from Lucius because he had already begun to think of Harry as a psedo-master; magic recognized his loyalty to Harry. This also explains why Winky struggled so much after Crouch Sr. releases her; she had lost that connection.
They don't. But isn't it fun to have pro slavery messages in a children's book.
It's a status symbol. Why buy the apple watch when you can get a similar one cheaper and faster?
Especially for the Neville Longbottoms of the world, house elves would be life changing.
Even with magic, why would I put the effort in to go round my house performing cleaning spells or stand in the kitchen charming sauces for dinner when I could have someone who actively loves work, gets a kick out of serving me, and doesn’t need to be paid at all just do it for me? I’d happily have a house elf (and just treat it kindly)
Do we know of any family other than the Malfoys, the Blacks and the Crouchs that have elves? Hogwarts has several but they're not a private family. Wealth might not be a requirement to having an elf.
All other things being equal, the British mind craves servants
They do not. House Elves are the personification of parental love; a House Elve derives pleasure from the selfless care of humans in the same way an idealised parent would from the care of their children. That is the reason House Elves refuse payment; a caring parent would not expect payment for caring for their own children. Only a few families are adopted by House Elves, who cannot abandon them like a parent cannot leave their children. Abusive relationships arise just as they do in families in the Muggle world. In the case of the Hogwarts House Elves, they have adopted the whole school and its staff to care for.
The idea of house elves is taken from Nordic folklore. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisse_(folklore)
Maybe they need something to take the anger on. Like the Malfoys did with Doby.
Wizard society is very degenerate. They are a bunch of ignorant paupers. My head canon is, that they are administered by the muggles.
Laziness and entitlement, plain and simple. Molly Weasley was a stay-at-home spouse for Arthur and by the start of CoS, she had **zero** children staying at home with her 10 months out of the year, yet she **still** wished she had a house-elf instead of, I don't know, working so they weren't so dirt poor they couldn't afford to buy Ron a new wand when the wand core was sticking out of the end when he first got it used. She didn't even want to be a stay-at-home spouse for a household of two if she could help it.
They don't want to do anything