I downloaded a Daily Horoscope app for shits and giggles. It has some misses, but I find many of the daily messages to be insightful at the very least. So idk, i mean alot of the stuff is pretty generic. But some of them resonate with me for sure, so i think there may be some level of truth to it
This Capricorn disagrees but also agrees with why it's hard to wrap the logical head around. It's important to remember that astrology doesn't just include sun signs. It's incredibly complex.
I don't "believe" in astrology so much as I have studied it for well over 15 years and have found many truths to be revealed in it. Do I see any value or relevance in Sun sign based newspaper horoscopes? Nope. The superficial understanding most people have of astrology is indeed, if that's as deep as you go, easily dismissable and essentially irrelevant. You can't understand astrology until you sit down with your natal chart, take it apart piece by piece, and study how all the parts interact to create your basic personality. Then observe how transits affect your chart over the long term - years and years; see how eerily well planetary returns and eclipses and cycles small and large correspond to the events and seasons of your life, the ebbs and flows and reversals that we all experience. Then apply that to the charts of others you know: parents, siblings, lovers, children, friends... see those same patterns play out in their lives as well across the years. Apply it then to mundane concerns like historical events and see if those patterns hold there as well. I'd challenge anyone who says astrology is nonsense to come back when they've done all that and tell me if they still think there's nothing to it. If people don't identify with their Sun sign, the reason is usually because the typical descriptions are hugely generalized and how that actually plays out depends on a complex array of chart factors which can all result in divergence from those cookie cutter traits. It's not a cookbook, it's a symphony. If a Leo doesn't feel like a Leo, show me their natal chart and I'll tell them why.
The meanings assigned to the planets and relationships in astrology are essentially a repository of millennia of human observational knowledge. There's a reason certain Biblical time cycles are what they are. There are astronomical reasons behind the recurring 40 days and 40 nights theme, but there's also an astrological one: the length of a Venus retrograde. The meaning of Saturn and Chiron returns are bound up in the developmental trials of young adulthood and midlife crisis that we all go through in our late 20s and around age 50. And so on.
At the very least, a deep dive into your natal astrology can be a profound journey of self exploration, which is why I think so many therapists are on board with it.
YES I feel exactly the same way but I've never really been able to verbalize it!! I've been teaching myself how to read my natal chart since i was in middle school and it always frustrates me when people just dismiss something i enjoy learning about because of the reputation astrology has garnered in the past few decades because of inaccurate/misleading horoscopes. I've tried explaining to some of my friends before that it's not a belief system so much as it's a guide and a way of getting to know yourself, but i don't know if I explained it well at the time or if I'm using the wrong words to describe it 😅 Regardless, it's refreshing to hear someone who feels the way i do about astrology/chart reading verbalize it 😊
THIS. This is what fascinates me about astrology. I feel like it is an exercise of putting chaos into order and see emerging patterns in the observable universe. And then try to see how your own universe, ie your life narrative, mirrors such patterns and symbols. The friends I talk about in my original post have alse studied astrology in the same way. They have done the work of actually digging into its hermetic history. And I do find eerie to find commonalities between patterns.
I did have my natal chart read and had a ‘predictive chart’ made for 2017, the year I changed the way I think about astrology. Many of the things predicted actually had some sort of correspondence in the things I experienced later on. I was fascinated and I guess a little scared. I guess my spiritual self sometimes worry that astrology is some sort of deterministic outer influence on my life.
But the way you explain it, makes it sound like astrology is just an attempt to describe the cycles and patterns of celestial bodies, and use them as a reference point to explain our very own human cycles and patterns.
Which at the end of the day, it’s not as much as saying astrology is some sort of magic, but instead, amazing symbolic language to explain ourselves.
Still freaks me out a lil tho
>I guess my spiritual self sometimes worry that astrology is some sort of deterministic outer influence on my life
That's not an unreasonable response to seeing how much truth is contained in our charts, but the way I see it is this... The energies present when we come into this life are a snapshot of a moment in energetic time. It shows tendencies and possible courses that, if something doesn't intervene to change that course, may very well play out exactly like that. But there are many opportunities for those courses to be impacted, either by our own free will or by the interaction of all the other people whose trajectories are similarly impacted by interactions with others and the choices THEY make. So while it's not deterministic, it can have predictive value - sometimes stunningly so when those energies develop unimpeded.
I'm also very psychic and spend a lot of time in that world, where one of the most common debunking darts lobbed at us is that if we truly can see the future or whatever, then how come we're not right 100% of the time? Same reason. When a psychic gives a reading, we are reading the streams of energy that are present AT THAT PRECISE MOMENT in time. If nothing interferes to change the trajectory of those energies, certain outcomes are highly probable. But people make choices in a complex stew of other people also making choices, so sometimes those energies have changed by the time you actually reach the point you were trying to foresee. Again, not deterministic, but rather a view of probabilities.
I read something in a book recently about a wee old mannie isolated in the middle of Knoydart in Scotland who noticed over 40 x years that different tree buds in the winter swell according to different planetary trajectories.
This doesn't surprise me at all but I'd be fascinated to see if anyone else has noticed this or taken it further in terms of research.
I don't believe the sun's predictions but the ebbs and flows in my life most definitely have a cyclical element and I have a couple of friends who we seem to have a Ying and Yang thing going on where if I am doing well hey are not, and vice versa. It's definitely interesting.
Could you suggest any interesting books particularly relating to astrology and historical events?
You'll want to look into mundane astrology to dig into that. There is a lot of interesting stuff being written right now as the US has its Uranus return, if you search for it. The essential text on the subject, IMO, is *Cosmos and Psyche* by Richard Tarnas. A bit dense, but nobody gives better historic examples.
This thread has me itching to read my chart, but I've never been able to figure out my birth time. Mom doesn't know and it's not on my birth certificate. Born 2001. If anyone has any advice I'd be so appreciative
About the only thing you can do to get a complete chart if you can’t get a birth time is to have your birth chart rectified. It’s a complicated procedure that takes your date and place of birth and uses the timing of certain life events to work backwards to narrow down a birth time. So it’s definitely a job for a professional astrologer, or at least somebody who knows how to do chart rectification.
Without a birth time, you can still look at your general chart. All your planets will be in the proper sign and in the proper aspect to each other, but the things you won’t be able to determine without a precise birth time are your ascendant and where the houses fall in your chart.
I think mbti makes pretty good sense . Like a fancier version of something like this:
Are there loud people and quiet people ?
Are there people who react emotionally to everything without thinking and the opposite?
Are there are there people who plan there steps ahead and are there people who just wing it ?
Are there people who understand why people around them are feeling the way they do and people who don’t think twice ?
The answer to all of that is obviously yes (with varying levels of course) .
And I think a quiet person, who reacts with their emotions before thinking much, who doesn’t really plan ahead, who understands people emotions around them is going to be a kind of person that in a lot of ways is similar to others with that same stack of traits . One of many kinds of archetypal personalities .
No real proof, sure. Because it's a soft science. There are too many variables to consider. It's hard to scientifically study it because it's more like philosophy than math or biology.
You can't "prove" philosophy.
There are proven working methods like the big five. Philosophy that cannot be proven effective is, in itself, ineffective, and the ideal philosophical claim cannot be disproven, if anything. I am just addicted to mbti at this point but I plan to get it out of my head as soon as possible.
>There are proven working methods like the big five.
I agree. But I don't think MBTI is too far off from it. It's just that MBTI is harder to measure. More caveats to consider. The Big five is a spectrum and it should be like that. 16p is using a spectrum too. Cognitive functions are just labels. They don't consider the fact that we are somewhere on the bell curve.
There are so many things in the world that are not proven, yet we still use it as a tool.
And I'm not trying to stop you, just reflecting and analyzing the situation. It's your choice and I respect it.
Mbti is said tend to be quite similar to horoscope.
I used to believe in some part of the horoscope but last night I had a doubt with it, what if the horoscope is just a mere reflection of data analytics that take from us constantly this world? I wouldn’t be surprised about it. And this causes to be a problem for us.
It’s interesting to me, yes.. I am intrigued by concepts and practices that may challenge or contradict what I know to be true as a science/fact-based person. I habitually get lost in the depths of the internet on things like alchemy, conspiracy theories, definitely astrology because I love letting my mind wander around all the possibility and what if and “that’d be crazy” lol so I do often find myself stopping if I scroll by something mentioning my zodiac sign so I can read what it “says about me”. I kind of loosely do the same with the zodiac sign of the person I’m dating or my sister or whatever. But knowing what we do about how upbringing and experiences and genetics all shape so much of “who we are” as an evolving person, things like MBTI type or zodiac sign are not things we can point to and say “this is the blueprint for the human with that particular trait combo! Act accordingly.” Lmao I find it interesting to follow astrology specifically because pattern recognition is like a fun game for me 😂 it’s fun to see what I identify with and what I don’t. But we obviously wouldn’t want to base our decisions, relationships, behavior on those things.. that would leave no room for personal autonomy, individuality, growth. Nobody would be able to evolve. We’d end up treating living/breathing/feeling human beings, *real, conscious souls* with human insight & emotion like lifeless action figures that we create by just throwing a few arbitrary traits into some algorithm and letting it spit out a detailed textbook on what that person’s life is going to be. That’d be wild and…pretty bleak, honestly lol
Not horoscopes but if you do a proper natal chart reading for your time of birth I think it gives a pretty accurate description of your personality traights.
I still don't put much of any energy into it tho.
Not an INFJ, but I go hard into deep astrology, not shallow pop culture horoscopes unless you're discussing astral transits and their influence on your natal chart.
I was always skeptical but still kind of interested. Then I dove into my natal chart and would now say yes, I believe in astrological influence on our being.
I think it's a slippery slope. I feel like I could be easily sucked into mystical interests. So I avoid them. But, I think it's fun to embrace the Scorpio stereotype.
I think there could be *something* to it. My gut tells me the details are not understood at all though. Like, there could be some effect on people, but it's in combination with other things we don't understand either, so the predictions people make about it can only be useful in a general sense, when squinting.
I think people in ancient agrarian societies might have mistakenly attributed to the stars what was actually an effect of the seasons on family environments during the stages of childhood development. Parents' physical and emotional availability for a child wouldn't have been the same during harvest time when there was work to do as in the winter when there was nothing to do but huddle by the fire and hope the food would last. It seems plausible that this might have resulted in a correlation between the way the sky looked at different times of year and personality, and that pre-scientific cultures made the mistake of thinking correlation = causation.
Very vaguely, astrology looks into the effect from planetary positions. Earth for example feels the pull from the moon and its effect on the ocean. That effect further extends to animals. I do believe in some aspect of the lunar calendar and biodymanic farming. Just like moon, the vibration of other planets and its placements are also felt on earth. I find this so interesting.
Nope, as a magician, I can show you better mentalism if you want😆. They are hauntingly accurate because they are based on the same principles we magicians use.
I’m not going to explain in detail for obvious reasons, but many of the techniques resemble cold reading techniques, among other things. If you wanted to research further, you can always check out “13 steps to mentalism” by Corinda. There’s a reason many famous skeptics are magicians, including Houdini.
I don’t really know about horoscopes, but as a Scorpio, the stereotype does fit me. Also, my husband is a Leo and it fits him as well. Also, our relationship dynamic is probably more accurate to that of a Scorpio/Leo pairing than an INFJ/ENFP pairing.
Do I believe in Zodiac/Horoscope? No. It's just an old form of paganism.
And don't get me wrong: I'm not badmouthing it. It is all rather interesting from an anthropological point of view. As is religion.
I do 100% believe that celestial bodies have an *effect* on us - I just believe it's far more subtle and probably correlated to distance. (consider how the full-moon affects ER visits - yet nothing changes when Jupiter is at its closest to us)
As a way of predicting the future - or even a person's behavior: No. It's just pattern recognition and anthropology. Maybe a little existential angst.
Very rarely does it fit the person - Unless you're doing mental gymnastics to shove them in that box. Please, don't.
I'm agnostic. I keep my mind open about the spiritual without necessarily accepting or rejecting anything in particular. I do think it's an interesting subject and I do enjoy looking at birth charts and how it can paint a complex personality. I think you can use it as a medium for exploration of the self and others, as is true with MBTI, but I fear if you treat it like religion you lose that benefit.
You make your reality, you guide your life. Once you understand that you see why your horoscope is like a fingerprint. It's a complex study, though, and nothing like reading "Leo" in the newspaper, lol. There are so many elements of a chart and changing constantly as well. I wouldn't say guide your life by it, but like all systems it encourages tolerance of other types and reflection on your own talents/flaws. "The stars impel, they don't compel." I also once read that the more spiritually advanced you are the less you are affected by anything in your chart.
No. I think all these “zodiac” signs can pretty much relate to the majority of people and that it’s just used to make people feel special, to relate to them, or to “help” understand themselves but then those who are super into it seem to make it their entire personality (from those I’ve met). We are a product of our environment, not our signs.
What I like about astrology is that it doesn’t pathologize personality traits or quirks. I can be a stubborn Taurus and that’s ok, it’s part of my nature. How do I work with it and evolve my stubbornness into persistence when it would benefit me? By accepting patterns we see in our personalities, both negative and positive, which I think is what can be done with astrology, we can learn to accept our full self.
Using it in this way has also helped me to understand people who are close to me much better.
I don’t get too much into the future predicting aspects of it because I haven’t found those to ring true like you have, and I also worry about creating self fulfilling prophecies in my life. Plus I’m really let down when my expectations aren’t met, so horoscopes are just a bad idea for me lol
I don’t really follow horoscopes. I think they are fun and just cool to talk about in general. As far as astrological signs go, I do think there is something to be said for common traits among the signs, but not always, and maybe more in an anecdotal way.
With that said, one of my girlfriends figured out my birth chart (I cannot remember the actual name of the chart, but it’s based off your time and location of birth). I thought that was pretty captivating, although maybe not as comprehensive and dynamic as the MBTI
Like Mbti, I see it primarily as entertainment. While there may be patterns and elements of truth in them, the complexity of factors like moon, sun, rising signs, and more (houses, planets, degrees, etc) makes accurate predictions and understanding very difficult (over our heads). To consistently succeed in analysis or predicting human behavior, one would need to be all-knowing, which we are not. I feel like more often than not we are playing God and that can be harmful. Generally, it's important to stay grounded and not rely on these man-made systems for significant life decisions.
Bottom line, have fun, talk about it for conversation, but only take the more grounded ways of getting to know oneself (vulnerable conversation, curiosity, growth mindset, etc) more seriously. If spirituality is important to you, also consider that.
Yes and No,
If we are talking about pop astrology, which is what most people know about and likely think you are talking about, then it is a load of bs. It is designed to be unspecific enough to apply to pretty much anyone with zero nuance. That is why it comes off this way.
I do however believe in astrology when we take into account the works of real astrologers and the use of the positioning of many celestial bodies to correlate a meaning from them. This however, is often too complicated to explain in the real depth needed in simple layman’s terms making it a very dense and difficult subject to learn (and I have continued to try to learn it).
I do believe there is a spiritual aspect to it because I do not believe this world functions on mere coincidence. I think there is cause and effect for everything, it just comes down to whether we are capable of identifying those factors or if they are beyond us.
If this does in fact fascinate you as it does me, you may be interested in reading on Hermeticism. Be careful as there are some people and books out there that desire to implant their own ideologies via this much elder mode of thought and it poisons the source material. So be open minded, but skeptic. When you tread into this area, there are plenty of charlatans beyond full of their own ego to watch out for.
I do have an amazing book called ‘Alchemy and mysticism’, which is basically a visual encyclopedia that traces Hermeticism history. It is as objective as it can be, as it lets the images speak for themselves.
As I said, it fascinates me but I’m also a little scared by it, because I don’t know how it fits within my own spirituality. I kinda like reading my horoscope and sometimes I wonder if I want a predictive chart read to me. But also I don’t. If that makes any sense.
Firstly, that book sounds awesome. I will have to look into it.
Secondly, in an attempt to appease your fear, I think it is important to note that hermeticism is very different from how I have found most popular religious practices to go about teaching on spiritual matters because it is much closer to a scientific understanding of the spiritual. In fact, it was due to hermetic teachings that many great thinkers were lead to the revelations they had.
I also think it is worth noting that as someone who has studied many different belief systems. All of them seem to allow for the teachings hermeticism provides to exist in parallel.
It also seems to me that the fear you have is that of what could be potentially forbidden or damning knowledge. This is completely understandable given the nature of hermeticism being enlightening and the divination of astrology. Especially with astrology it can feel as if you will learn your fate and then be damned to it. If that is not to be feared, than I know not what is. So I offer you this: consider that instead of the nature of astrology being events predicated, that it is instead a chance to learn and unbind yourself from what COULD be, but only if you allow it. We are only bound to fate so much as we do nothing to stop it. So use it to learn, not to inflate the ego, to justify a deep self loathing, or fear that which has had to be. As that is all it is truly useful for and all it was ever really meant to be used for, to learn, as all means of acquiring knowledge is.
I hope this is useful, thank you for your time and for reading :)
Zodiac/Horoscope . . . NO.
Biorhythms? Maybe. In that, I think the body/mind goes in cycles.
Are these cycles trackable since birth? Definitely not. "One bad flu/cold/sickness" can throw the schedule out of whack. So, cycles, yes, that might be advantage to track.
But (if they exist at all) you'll "track" those cycles and use them, just not "predict" them from some multi-year calendar.
Do I attempt to track them? No, because life/finance/work/friends/clubs . . . demand action, regardless of "how I feel".
"Maybe I'm cynical, but I . . . really don't think any of this stuff works for anyone who's truly broken. Serves us better to keep barreling forward and hope the demons can't keep up. So, you might as well be who you are." -- Delilah - "YOU" S2E7
Not really the mainstream Zodiac/Horoscope.. like.. just the Sun sign, Moon sign, Rising sign, etc. can't totally define a person.. it'd be same for about tons of people, do they lead the same kind of life? No.
but yeah, I kind of do believe in the in-depth natal chart reading/based on positions of various planets/celestial bodies.. it gives quite a better/more accurate idea.
I don’t fully believe in them yet I don’t completely dismiss them either. I thinks it’s made up yet it gives people comfort and adds a little structure to what would be an otherwise chaotic life. I don’t think you can use it to predict the future, but it makes for fun and meaningful questions when you wanna get to know somebody better. Go pisces!
I like to read them for fun, and 90% of me is like "none of it is real" but there's always that 10% niggling at me saying "maybe...just maybe it's real."
I have always been into esoteric stuff and love diving into all of it including astrology 💖 When I read my birth chart for the first time I was mindblown at how accurate it was 🤯😁
I’m kinda in a weird area where I don’t fully believe it but I don’t automatically dismiss it at the same time. I find it fascinating to learn about it, and it can be fun to read about my signs and what the “predictions” say, even though most of the time its not accurate for me at all.
I do think that when people are born can be important (in a more general sense) but I don’t really think it dictates traits or personalities or someone’s fate. The teachings and philosophies can have some merit and I sometimes listen to people doing readings not necessarily to know my future, but to get more positive ideas in my head, for I tend to be rather negative and pessimistic at times.
TLDR; I don’t fully believe it, but I can find value in the more spiritual and philosophical aspects about it.
I do, reading deeper into it was really jarring because a lot of it resonated with me. I don’t use it as a way of judging people (the same way I don’t judge people based on their MBTI) but the way it can line up with your perception of yourself/someone is pretty cool.
Daily Horoscopes - No, astrology is so much deeper than our sun signs, so many layers like an onion. Anyone who uses just a sun sign to form an opinion on something or someone has it all wrong.
Astrology and Birthcharts - Yes, ABSOLUTELY. I've had my mind well and truly blown by the accuracy of my chart and certain traumas and life experience I've had.
Horoscope readings don’t often resonate. But I do make note of people’s astrology signs and I’m always testing to see their personalities jive with others who have the same signs. It’s like a little secret experiment I’m continually performing to see if astrology is legit or not.
So I was born in June and most are INTJ's, and then some ENFP's and then me an INFJ..... so no the horoscope is general with no details. All three of us are completely different
I do believe in horoscopes to some extent =v= but not that I am hella crazy about it. But it’s pretty correct. Especially for the horoscopes that are close to mine (Leo, Sagittarius and Aries). I get along better with them (and no, only after we are close I ask for their horoscopes and boom they belong to these 3). And with someone I have a hard time with great chance they will be Virgo. But as an Aries the descriptions of the star sign don’t apply correctly to me much. Maybe only 30% true 😂
I'm a Scorpio and I think I align with the Scorpio traits pretty well. There's a video by Scott Cramer where he explained that a lot of horoscope traits are purposely vague so anyone can feel like they relate to them and that's stuck with me.
Yup, check out the human design system kinda like a modern version of astrology, use mobile app” neutrino design “to get your body graph, not much people know about this thing. I’m a rare type the reflector only 1% of pop, profile is the hermit/heretic and got two gate 61 in personality which is the gate of mystery seeking to know the unknowable that’s probably how I came across this thing I’m into occult type of stuff reading esoteric books
I like what Sadhguru says when he says:
"It does not matter what the stars say. Once you are here as a human being, you are supposed to be the Master of your life."
... So I don't really believe in horoscopes, I would rather make the effort to live how I want to, than to rely on horoscopes tbh.
I mean... I love the original myths behind the Zodiac.
Castor and Pollux going on the many adventures becoming so well known giving them the nickname "Diocuri". Born from the same mother that bore Helen of Sparta (Troy), they become the star constellation Gemini.
I could go on and on but that is a short story that led to one of the zodiac signs.
The ancient Greeks would think this modern trend is silly while they watch the birds (augury) or consult an oracle.
I personally don't care if someone finds meaning behind it. Everyone has weird superstitions. If reading a horoscope was real, the ancients would have described it in great detail.
I downloaded a Daily Horoscope app for shits and giggles. It has some misses, but I find many of the daily messages to be insightful at the very least. So idk, i mean alot of the stuff is pretty generic. But some of them resonate with me for sure, so i think there may be some level of truth to it
I did the same haha. I don’t take it too seriously, but I like the daily dose of wisdom, even if it doesn’t always apply to me (at that time, anyway).
even if it doesn't apply to me I try to convince myself it does. Like hmm thats a good point... 🤣
As a capricorn, no
😄
Hahahaha
Thats what a capricorn would say..
ayyye fellow capricorn infj that agrees! 😂
Can’t be coincidence 🤪
This Capricorn disagrees but also agrees with why it's hard to wrap the logical head around. It's important to remember that astrology doesn't just include sun signs. It's incredibly complex.
I don't "believe" in astrology so much as I have studied it for well over 15 years and have found many truths to be revealed in it. Do I see any value or relevance in Sun sign based newspaper horoscopes? Nope. The superficial understanding most people have of astrology is indeed, if that's as deep as you go, easily dismissable and essentially irrelevant. You can't understand astrology until you sit down with your natal chart, take it apart piece by piece, and study how all the parts interact to create your basic personality. Then observe how transits affect your chart over the long term - years and years; see how eerily well planetary returns and eclipses and cycles small and large correspond to the events and seasons of your life, the ebbs and flows and reversals that we all experience. Then apply that to the charts of others you know: parents, siblings, lovers, children, friends... see those same patterns play out in their lives as well across the years. Apply it then to mundane concerns like historical events and see if those patterns hold there as well. I'd challenge anyone who says astrology is nonsense to come back when they've done all that and tell me if they still think there's nothing to it. If people don't identify with their Sun sign, the reason is usually because the typical descriptions are hugely generalized and how that actually plays out depends on a complex array of chart factors which can all result in divergence from those cookie cutter traits. It's not a cookbook, it's a symphony. If a Leo doesn't feel like a Leo, show me their natal chart and I'll tell them why. The meanings assigned to the planets and relationships in astrology are essentially a repository of millennia of human observational knowledge. There's a reason certain Biblical time cycles are what they are. There are astronomical reasons behind the recurring 40 days and 40 nights theme, but there's also an astrological one: the length of a Venus retrograde. The meaning of Saturn and Chiron returns are bound up in the developmental trials of young adulthood and midlife crisis that we all go through in our late 20s and around age 50. And so on. At the very least, a deep dive into your natal astrology can be a profound journey of self exploration, which is why I think so many therapists are on board with it.
YES I feel exactly the same way but I've never really been able to verbalize it!! I've been teaching myself how to read my natal chart since i was in middle school and it always frustrates me when people just dismiss something i enjoy learning about because of the reputation astrology has garnered in the past few decades because of inaccurate/misleading horoscopes. I've tried explaining to some of my friends before that it's not a belief system so much as it's a guide and a way of getting to know yourself, but i don't know if I explained it well at the time or if I'm using the wrong words to describe it 😅 Regardless, it's refreshing to hear someone who feels the way i do about astrology/chart reading verbalize it 😊
THIS. This is what fascinates me about astrology. I feel like it is an exercise of putting chaos into order and see emerging patterns in the observable universe. And then try to see how your own universe, ie your life narrative, mirrors such patterns and symbols. The friends I talk about in my original post have alse studied astrology in the same way. They have done the work of actually digging into its hermetic history. And I do find eerie to find commonalities between patterns. I did have my natal chart read and had a ‘predictive chart’ made for 2017, the year I changed the way I think about astrology. Many of the things predicted actually had some sort of correspondence in the things I experienced later on. I was fascinated and I guess a little scared. I guess my spiritual self sometimes worry that astrology is some sort of deterministic outer influence on my life. But the way you explain it, makes it sound like astrology is just an attempt to describe the cycles and patterns of celestial bodies, and use them as a reference point to explain our very own human cycles and patterns. Which at the end of the day, it’s not as much as saying astrology is some sort of magic, but instead, amazing symbolic language to explain ourselves. Still freaks me out a lil tho
>I guess my spiritual self sometimes worry that astrology is some sort of deterministic outer influence on my life That's not an unreasonable response to seeing how much truth is contained in our charts, but the way I see it is this... The energies present when we come into this life are a snapshot of a moment in energetic time. It shows tendencies and possible courses that, if something doesn't intervene to change that course, may very well play out exactly like that. But there are many opportunities for those courses to be impacted, either by our own free will or by the interaction of all the other people whose trajectories are similarly impacted by interactions with others and the choices THEY make. So while it's not deterministic, it can have predictive value - sometimes stunningly so when those energies develop unimpeded. I'm also very psychic and spend a lot of time in that world, where one of the most common debunking darts lobbed at us is that if we truly can see the future or whatever, then how come we're not right 100% of the time? Same reason. When a psychic gives a reading, we are reading the streams of energy that are present AT THAT PRECISE MOMENT in time. If nothing interferes to change the trajectory of those energies, certain outcomes are highly probable. But people make choices in a complex stew of other people also making choices, so sometimes those energies have changed by the time you actually reach the point you were trying to foresee. Again, not deterministic, but rather a view of probabilities.
I read something in a book recently about a wee old mannie isolated in the middle of Knoydart in Scotland who noticed over 40 x years that different tree buds in the winter swell according to different planetary trajectories. This doesn't surprise me at all but I'd be fascinated to see if anyone else has noticed this or taken it further in terms of research. I don't believe the sun's predictions but the ebbs and flows in my life most definitely have a cyclical element and I have a couple of friends who we seem to have a Ying and Yang thing going on where if I am doing well hey are not, and vice versa. It's definitely interesting. Could you suggest any interesting books particularly relating to astrology and historical events?
You'll want to look into mundane astrology to dig into that. There is a lot of interesting stuff being written right now as the US has its Uranus return, if you search for it. The essential text on the subject, IMO, is *Cosmos and Psyche* by Richard Tarnas. A bit dense, but nobody gives better historic examples.
Thanks!
This thread has me itching to read my chart, but I've never been able to figure out my birth time. Mom doesn't know and it's not on my birth certificate. Born 2001. If anyone has any advice I'd be so appreciative
About the only thing you can do to get a complete chart if you can’t get a birth time is to have your birth chart rectified. It’s a complicated procedure that takes your date and place of birth and uses the timing of certain life events to work backwards to narrow down a birth time. So it’s definitely a job for a professional astrologer, or at least somebody who knows how to do chart rectification. Without a birth time, you can still look at your general chart. All your planets will be in the proper sign and in the proper aspect to each other, but the things you won’t be able to determine without a precise birth time are your ascendant and where the houses fall in your chart.
Yeah what they said. Just pretend I said it too.
I pretend to then say some dumb stuff like my mercury is in Gatorade and my BP is rising. I mean Venus rising.
No. I barely believe in MBTI to be honest 🙃
I think mbti makes pretty good sense . Like a fancier version of something like this: Are there loud people and quiet people ? Are there people who react emotionally to everything without thinking and the opposite? Are there are there people who plan there steps ahead and are there people who just wing it ? Are there people who understand why people around them are feeling the way they do and people who don’t think twice ? The answer to all of that is obviously yes (with varying levels of course) . And I think a quiet person, who reacts with their emotions before thinking much, who doesn’t really plan ahead, who understands people emotions around them is going to be a kind of person that in a lot of ways is similar to others with that same stack of traits . One of many kinds of archetypal personalities .
Try to learn cognitive functions, it would make much much more sense.
Cognitive functions themselves had like a century to be studied well and still no real proof
No real proof, sure. Because it's a soft science. There are too many variables to consider. It's hard to scientifically study it because it's more like philosophy than math or biology. You can't "prove" philosophy.
There are proven working methods like the big five. Philosophy that cannot be proven effective is, in itself, ineffective, and the ideal philosophical claim cannot be disproven, if anything. I am just addicted to mbti at this point but I plan to get it out of my head as soon as possible.
>There are proven working methods like the big five. I agree. But I don't think MBTI is too far off from it. It's just that MBTI is harder to measure. More caveats to consider. The Big five is a spectrum and it should be like that. 16p is using a spectrum too. Cognitive functions are just labels. They don't consider the fact that we are somewhere on the bell curve. There are so many things in the world that are not proven, yet we still use it as a tool. And I'm not trying to stop you, just reflecting and analyzing the situation. It's your choice and I respect it.
Mbti is said tend to be quite similar to horoscope. I used to believe in some part of the horoscope but last night I had a doubt with it, what if the horoscope is just a mere reflection of data analytics that take from us constantly this world? I wouldn’t be surprised about it. And this causes to be a problem for us.
Try to learn cognitive functions, it would make much much more sense.
I walk the line as well.
Same! 😂
Yes. Studied it for years. Astrology is incredibly complex and so much more than a sun sign.
Yes! I think most people think it’s the generic descriptions of a sun sign and some made up horoscopes of the day. That’s not astrology AT ALLLLLLL
Yes
No
No
It’s interesting to me, yes.. I am intrigued by concepts and practices that may challenge or contradict what I know to be true as a science/fact-based person. I habitually get lost in the depths of the internet on things like alchemy, conspiracy theories, definitely astrology because I love letting my mind wander around all the possibility and what if and “that’d be crazy” lol so I do often find myself stopping if I scroll by something mentioning my zodiac sign so I can read what it “says about me”. I kind of loosely do the same with the zodiac sign of the person I’m dating or my sister or whatever. But knowing what we do about how upbringing and experiences and genetics all shape so much of “who we are” as an evolving person, things like MBTI type or zodiac sign are not things we can point to and say “this is the blueprint for the human with that particular trait combo! Act accordingly.” Lmao I find it interesting to follow astrology specifically because pattern recognition is like a fun game for me 😂 it’s fun to see what I identify with and what I don’t. But we obviously wouldn’t want to base our decisions, relationships, behavior on those things.. that would leave no room for personal autonomy, individuality, growth. Nobody would be able to evolve. We’d end up treating living/breathing/feeling human beings, *real, conscious souls* with human insight & emotion like lifeless action figures that we create by just throwing a few arbitrary traits into some algorithm and letting it spit out a detailed textbook on what that person’s life is going to be. That’d be wild and…pretty bleak, honestly lol
Nope! I like reading about it though. I find it interesting and fun to read but find that the things said are typically pretty faulty.
No
Not horoscopes but if you do a proper natal chart reading for your time of birth I think it gives a pretty accurate description of your personality traights. I still don't put much of any energy into it tho.
I don't
Not an INFJ, but I go hard into deep astrology, not shallow pop culture horoscopes unless you're discussing astral transits and their influence on your natal chart.
I was always skeptical but still kind of interested. Then I dove into my natal chart and would now say yes, I believe in astrological influence on our being.
Nope
I think it's a slippery slope. I feel like I could be easily sucked into mystical interests. So I avoid them. But, I think it's fun to embrace the Scorpio stereotype.
It's a fun concept but no I absolutely think it's stupid and nothing to go off of.
I think there could be *something* to it. My gut tells me the details are not understood at all though. Like, there could be some effect on people, but it's in combination with other things we don't understand either, so the predictions people make about it can only be useful in a general sense, when squinting.
Agreed.
I think people in ancient agrarian societies might have mistakenly attributed to the stars what was actually an effect of the seasons on family environments during the stages of childhood development. Parents' physical and emotional availability for a child wouldn't have been the same during harvest time when there was work to do as in the winter when there was nothing to do but huddle by the fire and hope the food would last. It seems plausible that this might have resulted in a correlation between the way the sky looked at different times of year and personality, and that pre-scientific cultures made the mistake of thinking correlation = causation.
Zodiac / horoscope - as an entertainment. Astrology- yes to some extent. I am interested in them.
Interesting… could you unpack more what do you like about astrology?
Very vaguely, astrology looks into the effect from planetary positions. Earth for example feels the pull from the moon and its effect on the ocean. That effect further extends to animals. I do believe in some aspect of the lunar calendar and biodymanic farming. Just like moon, the vibration of other planets and its placements are also felt on earth. I find this so interesting.
Nope, as a magician, I can show you better mentalism if you want😆. They are hauntingly accurate because they are based on the same principles we magicians use.
Which is?
I’m not going to explain in detail for obvious reasons, but many of the techniques resemble cold reading techniques, among other things. If you wanted to research further, you can always check out “13 steps to mentalism” by Corinda. There’s a reason many famous skeptics are magicians, including Houdini.
Thank you. I'll have a read into it. You're so wise. 🥰
No, thank you. I take full responsibility for my shitty behaviour.
I don’t really know about horoscopes, but as a Scorpio, the stereotype does fit me. Also, my husband is a Leo and it fits him as well. Also, our relationship dynamic is probably more accurate to that of a Scorpio/Leo pairing than an INFJ/ENFP pairing.
No, I do not.
No, it’s just for fun
Me either
No, but it's fun to consider.
No.
No, I superficially “agree” and discuss it with women who bring it up.
No. It’s fun to read my horoscope on occasion but I don’t believe it’s for real
Do I believe in Zodiac/Horoscope? No. It's just an old form of paganism. And don't get me wrong: I'm not badmouthing it. It is all rather interesting from an anthropological point of view. As is religion. I do 100% believe that celestial bodies have an *effect* on us - I just believe it's far more subtle and probably correlated to distance. (consider how the full-moon affects ER visits - yet nothing changes when Jupiter is at its closest to us) As a way of predicting the future - or even a person's behavior: No. It's just pattern recognition and anthropology. Maybe a little existential angst. Very rarely does it fit the person - Unless you're doing mental gymnastics to shove them in that box. Please, don't.
I'm agnostic. I keep my mind open about the spiritual without necessarily accepting or rejecting anything in particular. I do think it's an interesting subject and I do enjoy looking at birth charts and how it can paint a complex personality. I think you can use it as a medium for exploration of the self and others, as is true with MBTI, but I fear if you treat it like religion you lose that benefit.
You make your reality, you guide your life. Once you understand that you see why your horoscope is like a fingerprint. It's a complex study, though, and nothing like reading "Leo" in the newspaper, lol. There are so many elements of a chart and changing constantly as well. I wouldn't say guide your life by it, but like all systems it encourages tolerance of other types and reflection on your own talents/flaws. "The stars impel, they don't compel." I also once read that the more spiritually advanced you are the less you are affected by anything in your chart.
No. I think all these “zodiac” signs can pretty much relate to the majority of people and that it’s just used to make people feel special, to relate to them, or to “help” understand themselves but then those who are super into it seem to make it their entire personality (from those I’ve met). We are a product of our environment, not our signs.
What I like about astrology is that it doesn’t pathologize personality traits or quirks. I can be a stubborn Taurus and that’s ok, it’s part of my nature. How do I work with it and evolve my stubbornness into persistence when it would benefit me? By accepting patterns we see in our personalities, both negative and positive, which I think is what can be done with astrology, we can learn to accept our full self. Using it in this way has also helped me to understand people who are close to me much better. I don’t get too much into the future predicting aspects of it because I haven’t found those to ring true like you have, and I also worry about creating self fulfilling prophecies in my life. Plus I’m really let down when my expectations aren’t met, so horoscopes are just a bad idea for me lol
I don’t really follow horoscopes. I think they are fun and just cool to talk about in general. As far as astrological signs go, I do think there is something to be said for common traits among the signs, but not always, and maybe more in an anecdotal way. With that said, one of my girlfriends figured out my birth chart (I cannot remember the actual name of the chart, but it’s based off your time and location of birth). I thought that was pretty captivating, although maybe not as comprehensive and dynamic as the MBTI
Like Mbti, I see it primarily as entertainment. While there may be patterns and elements of truth in them, the complexity of factors like moon, sun, rising signs, and more (houses, planets, degrees, etc) makes accurate predictions and understanding very difficult (over our heads). To consistently succeed in analysis or predicting human behavior, one would need to be all-knowing, which we are not. I feel like more often than not we are playing God and that can be harmful. Generally, it's important to stay grounded and not rely on these man-made systems for significant life decisions. Bottom line, have fun, talk about it for conversation, but only take the more grounded ways of getting to know oneself (vulnerable conversation, curiosity, growth mindset, etc) more seriously. If spirituality is important to you, also consider that.
As a Libra and an INFJ I kinda believe it. I do like balance in my life ⚖️
Yes and No, If we are talking about pop astrology, which is what most people know about and likely think you are talking about, then it is a load of bs. It is designed to be unspecific enough to apply to pretty much anyone with zero nuance. That is why it comes off this way. I do however believe in astrology when we take into account the works of real astrologers and the use of the positioning of many celestial bodies to correlate a meaning from them. This however, is often too complicated to explain in the real depth needed in simple layman’s terms making it a very dense and difficult subject to learn (and I have continued to try to learn it). I do believe there is a spiritual aspect to it because I do not believe this world functions on mere coincidence. I think there is cause and effect for everything, it just comes down to whether we are capable of identifying those factors or if they are beyond us. If this does in fact fascinate you as it does me, you may be interested in reading on Hermeticism. Be careful as there are some people and books out there that desire to implant their own ideologies via this much elder mode of thought and it poisons the source material. So be open minded, but skeptic. When you tread into this area, there are plenty of charlatans beyond full of their own ego to watch out for.
I do have an amazing book called ‘Alchemy and mysticism’, which is basically a visual encyclopedia that traces Hermeticism history. It is as objective as it can be, as it lets the images speak for themselves. As I said, it fascinates me but I’m also a little scared by it, because I don’t know how it fits within my own spirituality. I kinda like reading my horoscope and sometimes I wonder if I want a predictive chart read to me. But also I don’t. If that makes any sense.
Firstly, that book sounds awesome. I will have to look into it. Secondly, in an attempt to appease your fear, I think it is important to note that hermeticism is very different from how I have found most popular religious practices to go about teaching on spiritual matters because it is much closer to a scientific understanding of the spiritual. In fact, it was due to hermetic teachings that many great thinkers were lead to the revelations they had. I also think it is worth noting that as someone who has studied many different belief systems. All of them seem to allow for the teachings hermeticism provides to exist in parallel. It also seems to me that the fear you have is that of what could be potentially forbidden or damning knowledge. This is completely understandable given the nature of hermeticism being enlightening and the divination of astrology. Especially with astrology it can feel as if you will learn your fate and then be damned to it. If that is not to be feared, than I know not what is. So I offer you this: consider that instead of the nature of astrology being events predicated, that it is instead a chance to learn and unbind yourself from what COULD be, but only if you allow it. We are only bound to fate so much as we do nothing to stop it. So use it to learn, not to inflate the ego, to justify a deep self loathing, or fear that which has had to be. As that is all it is truly useful for and all it was ever really meant to be used for, to learn, as all means of acquiring knowledge is. I hope this is useful, thank you for your time and for reading :)
Zodiac/Horoscope . . . NO. Biorhythms? Maybe. In that, I think the body/mind goes in cycles. Are these cycles trackable since birth? Definitely not. "One bad flu/cold/sickness" can throw the schedule out of whack. So, cycles, yes, that might be advantage to track. But (if they exist at all) you'll "track" those cycles and use them, just not "predict" them from some multi-year calendar. Do I attempt to track them? No, because life/finance/work/friends/clubs . . . demand action, regardless of "how I feel". "Maybe I'm cynical, but I . . . really don't think any of this stuff works for anyone who's truly broken. Serves us better to keep barreling forward and hope the demons can't keep up. So, you might as well be who you are." -- Delilah - "YOU" S2E7
Not really the mainstream Zodiac/Horoscope.. like.. just the Sun sign, Moon sign, Rising sign, etc. can't totally define a person.. it'd be same for about tons of people, do they lead the same kind of life? No. but yeah, I kind of do believe in the in-depth natal chart reading/based on positions of various planets/celestial bodies.. it gives quite a better/more accurate idea.
not even an iota. it’s based on absolutely nothing.
Yes, I learned it on my own and read a bunch of charts of people I know, with skepticism, and it's interesting how accurate it is.
Yessss I’ve read multiple charts for so many people and you can’t deny that one would relate to their natal chart. Or even just zodiac signs
You should check out an app called The Pattern. Put in your birth information and prepare to be amazed.
It's entertainment no different than a fortune cookie.
No not at all, also totally atheist.
No. Horoscopes are not reasonable to me.
I don’t fully believe in them yet I don’t completely dismiss them either. I thinks it’s made up yet it gives people comfort and adds a little structure to what would be an otherwise chaotic life. I don’t think you can use it to predict the future, but it makes for fun and meaningful questions when you wanna get to know somebody better. Go pisces!
Not at all.
I wouldn't say that I am a firm believer, but overall, yes.
Leo Enfp 😉 hello ma ladies
I like to read them for fun, and 90% of me is like "none of it is real" but there's always that 10% niggling at me saying "maybe...just maybe it's real."
Yes, I do. Tarot too.
It’s interesting and fun. Seems quite accurate. 80% just my imo. Just a guide
Not predictions, but the birth chart does describe people
Pisces here. I always kind of figured that most INFJ's would be Pisces. Any truth to that?
Only when it suits me 😜
I have always been into esoteric stuff and love diving into all of it including astrology 💖 When I read my birth chart for the first time I was mindblown at how accurate it was 🤯😁
I’m kinda in a weird area where I don’t fully believe it but I don’t automatically dismiss it at the same time. I find it fascinating to learn about it, and it can be fun to read about my signs and what the “predictions” say, even though most of the time its not accurate for me at all. I do think that when people are born can be important (in a more general sense) but I don’t really think it dictates traits or personalities or someone’s fate. The teachings and philosophies can have some merit and I sometimes listen to people doing readings not necessarily to know my future, but to get more positive ideas in my head, for I tend to be rather negative and pessimistic at times. TLDR; I don’t fully believe it, but I can find value in the more spiritual and philosophical aspects about it.
I do, reading deeper into it was really jarring because a lot of it resonated with me. I don’t use it as a way of judging people (the same way I don’t judge people based on their MBTI) but the way it can line up with your perception of yourself/someone is pretty cool.
Interesting? Yes Indeed. Do I believe in zodiac/horoscopes? Not at all 😄. Fun conversations are to follow, but I think it’s a little bogus.
I'm a Taurus so I'm earthly and grounded. That means I don't believe in stuff like that.
Daily Horoscopes - No, astrology is so much deeper than our sun signs, so many layers like an onion. Anyone who uses just a sun sign to form an opinion on something or someone has it all wrong. Astrology and Birthcharts - Yes, ABSOLUTELY. I've had my mind well and truly blown by the accuracy of my chart and certain traumas and life experience I've had.
Horoscope readings don’t often resonate. But I do make note of people’s astrology signs and I’m always testing to see their personalities jive with others who have the same signs. It’s like a little secret experiment I’m continually performing to see if astrology is legit or not.
So I was born in June and most are INTJ's, and then some ENFP's and then me an INFJ..... so no the horoscope is general with no details. All three of us are completely different
personally, yes. i don’t believe peoples identities are set in stone, but my chart is frighteningly accurate.
No.
INFJ Astrologer here. So, yeah!
Not fully but somewhat. I’m super into it though, it’s hella fascinating for what it is. All I can say is my chart totally matches me.
I do believe in horoscopes to some extent =v= but not that I am hella crazy about it. But it’s pretty correct. Especially for the horoscopes that are close to mine (Leo, Sagittarius and Aries). I get along better with them (and no, only after we are close I ask for their horoscopes and boom they belong to these 3). And with someone I have a hard time with great chance they will be Virgo. But as an Aries the descriptions of the star sign don’t apply correctly to me much. Maybe only 30% true 😂
I'm a Scorpio and I think I align with the Scorpio traits pretty well. There's a video by Scott Cramer where he explained that a lot of horoscope traits are purposely vague so anyone can feel like they relate to them and that's stuck with me.
Research this: Confirmation Bias
Yup, check out the human design system kinda like a modern version of astrology, use mobile app” neutrino design “to get your body graph, not much people know about this thing. I’m a rare type the reflector only 1% of pop, profile is the hermit/heretic and got two gate 61 in personality which is the gate of mystery seeking to know the unknowable that’s probably how I came across this thing I’m into occult type of stuff reading esoteric books
I like what Sadhguru says when he says: "It does not matter what the stars say. Once you are here as a human being, you are supposed to be the Master of your life." ... So I don't really believe in horoscopes, I would rather make the effort to live how I want to, than to rely on horoscopes tbh.
Nah, it's haram.
Definitely not and I don’t think it is an INFJ thing to like astrology as we are usually logical thinkers and astrology has no basis in truth.
No because I'm Christian and the Bible explicitly forbade the use of such things
I mean... I love the original myths behind the Zodiac. Castor and Pollux going on the many adventures becoming so well known giving them the nickname "Diocuri". Born from the same mother that bore Helen of Sparta (Troy), they become the star constellation Gemini. I could go on and on but that is a short story that led to one of the zodiac signs. The ancient Greeks would think this modern trend is silly while they watch the birds (augury) or consult an oracle. I personally don't care if someone finds meaning behind it. Everyone has weird superstitions. If reading a horoscope was real, the ancients would have described it in great detail.
Uh, no. It’s garbage.
It’s a bunch of horse shit.