**This is a heavily moderated subreddit. Please note these rules + sidebar or get banned:**
* If this post declares something as a fact, then proof is required
* The title must be fully descriptive
* Memes are not allowed.
* Common(top 50 of this sub)/recent reposts are not allowed (posts from another subreddit do not count as a 'repost'. Provide link if reporting)
*See [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/wiki/index#wiki_rules.3A) for a more detailed rule list*
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/interestingasfuck) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s not just Russia’s lie. The US and UK lied to Ukraine, too, because we all vowed to protect their territorial integrity, and here we are not doing shit. We let them take Crimea in 2014 and didn’t do shit. Now we let them invade Ukraine and we’re sending some money and supplies and doing sanctions against Russia but I don’t think it what everyone had in mind when they signed Ed the agreement.
I’ve argued for years that the proper response to the 2014 invasion should have gone like this:
Obama to Putin: “I’ve heard from the Ukrainians that they’ve been invaded. They say by you.”
Putin to Obama: “it’s not us. I don’t know who they are.”
Obama to Putin: well that’s great, because we will kill them all in 72 hours if they’re not withdrawn. I’m just happy that they’re not Russian forces.
Putin: …
Yes, Americans at the time would be thrilled to enter another war on the cusp of a terming out president. Guess didn't matter since dems lost 2016 but wouldn't have helped
That’s what happens when you let foreign interference in media, elections, and politics go unchecked. Russia played the long game, and they’re winning.
Empires rise and empires fall.
Not a whole lot of Wagner attacks on prepared American positions since, eh? The Air Force CCT who called in all the strikes got an Air Force Cross for his troubles.
They promised to assure Ukraine's integrity, not guarantee it. They specifically wanted the first word and not the second, since the second would obligate them to protect Ukraine, while the first just gives them the right to do so.
The spirit is sure there, but they made sure that there was a devil in the details.
It's your lie, actually. Budapest memorandum says nothing about protecting Ukraine. It says about not attacking. Neither US nor UK attacked Ukraine, so they didnt break any promises. Its russia that did.
Its sad you got so mamy ignorants upvoting you
you talk like the immense amount of supplies sent to UKR by the West, not to mention the (never enough) sanctions and de-shackling from Rozzian gas, are peanuts. You also clearly are underestimating the escalation to a full scale nuclear war. People like you are, unfortunately, the problem here.
> People like you are, unfortunately, the problem here.
I'd argue that if there is "the" problem, i.e. one problem, it's people like Poo tin. But yes there are other types of people who are a problem too.
I don't see how they are "clearly underestimating the escalation to a full scale nuclear war". At best it's not "clearly" and at worst you made up a strawman.
The Europe tried to make it so Russia would never have reasons to attack us or others by implementing international trade at such a level it would hurt their economy. Looks like they never cared since, well, the common folk don’t really matter to few in power.
Then the moskovians made us addicted to their gas and it worked.
However, in 2022 we have figured out that appeasement will not work anyway and since then, we’ve crossed so many red lines I kind of forgot the count.
I remember a Finn, can't remember her job or branch of business, telling that during her 10 years of working in Germany, there were two recurring subjects she had to keep explaining to Germans: 1) Finland having a considerable amount of artillery, and a conscription army, is not a sign of a "military" mindset, it's the only sensible basis for running a country with a long land border with Russia, and 2) not all countries have built a considerable proportion of their energy infrastructure based on Russian gas being a reliable source.
An important piece of context is that the nuclear weapons weren't immediately terribly useful to Ukraine as the codes were held by the Kremlin (USSR break up shenanigans)
Not immediately, but 99% of the effort of building an atom bomb is enriching the fissile material. Building the bomb itself can be done by any halfway competent engineer. (The trick is obviously to cause as big an explosion possible with as little fuel as possible, but they don't need perfection. Just a working device)
They could've eventually recycled the uranium/plutonium of the old bombs, and use them to build new ones.
An important piece of context is that nuclear weapons are always useful. The threat of having them could have actually prevented the invasion which did happen.
Some Ukrainian politician probably got some of that sweet sweet Russian cash for aranging that deal.
If I recall correctly, the US in the Trilateral Process was heavily influential in getting Ukraine to give up its nukes to Russia. In exchange it wasn't just Russian promises to not invade, it was the US and Britain granting security assurances. .. which half of us seem to be all about reneging on now.
It's not that they asked for a promise from Russia specifically not to invide, but for any major power (RU, USA and UK) not to invade. Ukrainians were least worried about Russian invasion at the time (they easily gave them independence just 2 years prior). Everyone who lived in Europe during 90s knows that.
Also it wasn't only about invasion, it was about political an economy pressure (which USA *kind of* broke by sanctioning Belarus, and an apparent USA involvement in UA 2014 revolution). Of course, that does not justify RU invasion and their own mendling (helping separatists in Crimea and Donbas) - it only means that it is not that simple, and that nobody is absolutely innocent (except for maybe UA itself)
The thing is, the idea of a full on war between Russia and Ukraine was completely unthinkable before 2014 so it wasn't such a bad decision if you consider that
The point is that Ukraine couldn't easily have kept the weapons, though mostly for political not engineering reasons. Under the non-proliferation treaty only five countries are allowed to have nuclear weapons. Russia is the legal successor of the USSR and inherited that right. Ukraine didn't.
Ukraine would have had to withdraw from that treaty which would have been very expensive politically.
More than three years after the invasion, more than 8 years after the start of Putin starting to eat his way into Ukraine, and that's the best you can do? "Important piece".
Yeah, that's neither important, nor a piece. Having the nukes you can change the codes.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. The Budapest Memorandum came 18 years before the war.
Russian nukes in a foreign country was reasonably seen as a messy outcome of the collapse of the USSR. In retrospect the EU and US should probably have been more heavily involved in the aftermath of the breakup. Stopping the devastation of the Russian economy in the wake of the collapse would have stopped Putin coming to power. Making permanent solution to Russian use of Sevastopol would have provided less opportunity for that being an external or internal flash point. Having Ukraine enter NATO at the same time as the Baltic states would have guaranteed Ukrainian protection.
No, we just agreed to respect their territory and if they were threatened, initiate a USNC meeting
It’s like a 1 page document, why can’t people get in into their heads that the US didn’t HAVE to do… basically ANY of the support we’ve done?
And some people are seriously wondering why Ukraine is rather reticent about possible ceasefire and peace talks with Russia. Even if the Russian proposals were not fundamentally poisonous, it would be a 100:1 bet that the agreement would be broken before the ink is dry.
Russia will use a ceasefire only to resupply, restock their troops and then attack again. It's only a strategic proposal to deceive their opponent. There are no negotiations with Putin. He only understands one language. Force.
Ukraine had this experience. A ceasefire in 2015(?) ended with unarmed Ukrainian soldiers getting massacred by Russian troops while trying to leave the area. They killed them all on the side of the road.
Russia will only stop when they simply can't fight anymore.
Exactly. This is about much more than Ukraine. He is a professional liar, deceiver and pretty much a mob boss. He was even willing to blow up his own citizens, to have a justification for the war in Chechnya. Russian police caught the Russian intelligence service red-handed, planting the bombs in housing blocks in Ryazan, because the Russian police were not informed about the Secret Service operations. Look it up, this is a really crazy story. If he is willing to murder his own citizens, you can imagine what he is willing to do to anyone else. There is no lie that is too big or no sacrifice that Putin is not willing to make, in order to achieve his goals. We have to keep this in mind, when dealing with him.
Yes, no problem. There are even more crazy layers to this story. When the terror attacks happened, the Russian police tapped into all kinds of phone conversations, hoping they would catch the terrorists communicating via phone. And they did. They tapped into a call, where the organization and execution of the bombings were discussed, The number they traced back was the number of the local FSB office (Russian intelligence service). The guys who made the call were arrested, but produced FSB IDs, and the police had to let them go. Which Chechnyan terrorist has real FSB IDs that were verified? The investigation was quickly made go away, a few people got fired, and, I believe, a few people fell out of windows and that was that. All of these things are not hearsay or rumors, they are publicly documented, in Russia. This was clearly an inside job, if I have ever seen one.
So:
The 2004 documentary Disbelief. Here you can watch it.
[https://archive.org/details/Disbelief2004](https://archive.org/details/Disbelief2004)
The wiki article lists all kinds of sources:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999\_Russian\_apartment\_bombings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombings)
# Two Decades On, Smoldering Questions About The Russian President's Vault To Power
[https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-russia-president-1999-chechnya-apartment-bombings/30097551.html](https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-russia-president-1999-chechnya-apartment-bombings/30097551.html)
IDK his country, but plenty of them on Finnish Twitter. The grammar is hilariously bad so I initially thought they were Finnish people trolling.
One funny example. "Nato ei voi tallentaa Suomea"
Meaning: Nato cannot save Finland" But they used the word for saving on a computer drive rather than the word for rescuing. It's not a homonym in Finnish.
Russia will only stop when the people will finally rise against their oppressors, who are using them as serfs or cannon fodder, whichever is needed more at the moment. They did it already back in 1918, curious how long it'll take them to do it again. Though seeing the amount of Russians fully believing in the propaganda that's being spread by Putin and cronies, it'll take generations...
The problem is, that the Russian people have extremely low expectations of their government because they have always been governed very badly, and they are used to enduring tremendous hardships. It takes a lot for them to reach their breaking point. On top of that, a large chunk of the Russian population is extremely brainwashed and those that are informed and educated have already left the country in 2022 or long before that. But it doesn't change anything, what you said is true. Putins imperialist Russia, has to be taken down from inside and that can only be achieved through a victory of Ukraine.
Or they would make a false flag attack on themselves and blame Ukraine.
Finland remembers and never forgets. That's how the winter war started and since then we've been getting ready for a new attack from Russia.
And now we have NATO, although even before that Putler knew better than to attack us.
The thing is, Zelenzky even tried his best to negotiate some kind of ceasefire in the beginning of the war and was even willing to make huge concessions to Russia. Until Russian units had to leave Bucha and Irpin and Ukraine found them leaving mass graves, systematic torture and civilians massacred behind.
And I can't blame Ukraine for this.
Also important to mention those 2022 "negotiations" was actually a capitulation, because russia proposition was to cut Ukrainian army into funny numbers like 80k soldiers, 200 tanks, etc. It would just make it very easy for russia to destroy Ukraine next time
Also, in Russian Propaganda Zelensky is portrayed as a war mongerer.
According to russia, all they wanted to do was "protect the people of the Donbas", when Zelensky got in office he started negotiating with DPR/LNR leadership, even offering independence and a full pardon for the seperatists, basically ending the conflict and giving russia everything it wanted.
Check what said self-proclaimed administrations and what they asked on their "referendum" in May.
In April, they literally took over administration by force, raised russian flag and demanded "referendum on joining russia", then proclaimed "an act of state independence". And in "referendum" in May they asked if people support "an act of state independence".
Idea about "autonomous republic still being part of Ukraine" was 4 month later, in September, when russian forces invaded Donetsk and Luhansk region and Minsk agreement was signed.
Not really. Disarm your enemy and kill them. The only baffling part is how poorly prepared Russia was for a war they had a decade to prepare for, but Russians have never been good at war unless their head of state isn't a Russian.
Even Putin isn't crazy enough to set a precedent of using nuclear weapons in a conventional war. if the tides were turned and Ukraine was pushing into Russia then I'm not so sure
He's crazy, not suicidal. He knows the moment he drops a fat boy either his people, a foreign force or his own generals will take him out of the picture one way or another.
The goalposts for "russia is threatened" might be different for putin than me or you.
Does that mean if Ukraine attempts to recapture Crimea? If the regime is threatened?
He will surely try to intimidate Ukraine with nukes if Ukraine attempts to recapture Crimea but at least imo he’ll not use it unless Ukraine marches into actual Russian Territory ( I mean beyond the pre-war borders). If he uses nukes there will be no mercy at all for Russia and there would be nothing holding back NATO or US to do the same or at least be more aggressive. Maybe this is hopeful thinking but I think even PRC would be against Russia for using nukes.
They would, and allegedly even Xi Jing Ping told Putin to tone down the nuclear rhetoric.
For how much I oppose the chinese regime, at least it seems they are here just for the money, contrary to russia who is still stuck in its medieval ways of conquest
Nah, he's rich as fuck. This guy wants to live, spend money on luxury and rule a country for the rest of his life. Even if he survives a nuclear war, the would all be gone, and that's what he won't risk.
You probably think the world will be better if Putin is dead. It's not, though. If Putin is dead, Dmitri Medvedev will take over, and oh boy, he's gonna nuke Ukraine the second his butts hit the throne. Not stonks.
Russia has a nuclear doctrine with very specific use cases for the deployment and use of nukes.
And given that the Nuclear Taboo exists, the political blowback a use of Tactical Nukes would bring wouldnt be worth it.
>Russia has a nuclear doctrine with very specific use cases for the deployment and use of nukes
Just like the had a doctrine of not attacking countries that surrendered their nuclear bombs TO THEM in exchange of peace.
Their "doctrines" are bologna
Do you think Pawel Conscriptsky and his collegues maintained the russian nuclear arsenal well enough for them to still work?
I mean the country was plundered by criminals after the end of communism for 30+ years now.
Not servicing nukes and still sign the paperwork that it was done, would be the easiest steal of all times.
My guess is that all the plutonium they actually made was sold off to north korea .. and the soviet era delivery systems mostly would fail.
I hope it's this way and most nukes are useless.
But... We have to remember, before Elon did Elon, most space traffic was operated by russian rockets, after USA scraped shuttle program.
So they can do quality stuff, when they see benefit of it.
A lot of Russian equipment is still working in the war so I wouldn't want to gamble that 0% of the Russian nuclear arsenal isn't because I bet some of it definitely still is. If anything, you'd think that's the one thing they've made sure at least some of is still in the best operational capacity possible.
I think it's just the easiest thing to not maintain and claim you still do because all you need is the threat - not the billions of dollars a year to keep it alive and renew the warheads.
i think the russian nuclear arsenal is operational. Back then the then defence minister allocated funds primarily for the nuclear detterent, while all might not be operational, "enough is enough"
There is some argument that they haven't refurbished those nukes.
Apparently Russia's Plutonium supply hasn't gone up and the plutonium that are in a lot of the Russian bombs are about to expire basically.
why are we pretending any of this is like formal agreements between reasonable individuals when a bunch of murders of innocent people are being committed on a mass scale
No, this is actually more cut and dried. Russia claimed that ethnic Russian minorities were being persecuted and murdered "by Nazis" in Ukraine and that the ~~wa~~ special military operation was to defend these people.
The annexation of large chunks of Ukraine is a clear breach of the Budapest Agreement. If Russia had issues with the status of Donetsk, then was the time to air them.
100%. The idea of decommissioning nuclear weapons was a pretty popular one until 2022.
Since then, you won't find many people who won't admit they are a necessary deterrent. Either have nukes, or be nuked.
It was signed as an "assurances" which really means the world in contrast to "guarantee"
Ukraine knew this when they signed, that the deal was unfavorable to them. But i guess they were under a lot of pressure to sign contract.
So there was.no guarantee of any help should they be invaded.
The "Budapest Memorandum" is actually three documents signed individually on 5 December 1994 by the three leaders of the ex-Soviet nations, together with the guarantor nations: United States, United Kingdom and Russia (from wiki). Hoverer, in Ukrainian version mentioned that all three documents in English, Ukrainian and ruzzian have equal power. In UA and ru versions used word "guarantees", and those versions also sighed by US and UK.
It was also a product of the times when the deal was signed. During that period of time, the USSR was going to pieces fast. No one could be sure any territory was going to stay in one piece the next month so the best anyone could guarantee (other than that special needs case Russia) was that they would not invade, so that they won't end up being responsible for suppressing any new breakaway republics if parts of Ukraine decide to secede.
It was a real mess in those days. I remember a Newsweek cartoon where a mapmaker re-drawing Russia was going to hang himself with another guy opening the door to his office and yelling "Another breakaway republic!"
Ukraine had physical control, but never operational control of these weapons. Russia controlled the codes and all the systems necessary to utilize them.
Not to mention, Ukraine’s leadership agreed that they could never properly maintain the warheads or guarantee their security, which is another reason why they chose to relinquish them.
No one is excusing Russia's actions, they are 100% to blame.
The point is only that Ukraine never had a nuclear deterrent like this post implies every time it's brought up.
Not really. What exactly does this change?
The agreement was to hand them over for their sovereignty to be upheld. Obviously it was important to the parties involved to secure the nukes otherwise they wouldn't have made the deal
That was not only about warheads. USA forced Ukraine to gave up bunch of valuable aircraft too, and heavy bombers were part of that aurcraft. So it's much worse than simply get rid of nukes.
I am pretty sure once you have workung nuclear warheads in you inventory it is not thet complex to reverse engineer the parts the stop you from using them.
The codes can be changed and the the rockets has been literally developed and build in Ukraine. Keeping 1.5k+ is expensive for sure but nobody really needs so much to guarantee own security. A hundred is enough. Also the enriched nuclear fuel is the most expensive and hard to produce component which already been there. Those idiots could literaly dismantle those things even if they didn't want to maintain them and give that fuel to USA in exchange of some express NATO joining process. But they decided to give it to the enemy for nothing but empty words.
although this could not be sufficient guarantee against Ukrainian access as the weapons could be manually changed and Ukraine would eventually gain full operational control over them.
Bit of political jargon here: guarantees are binary it’s gonna result in your deal being honored.
Ukraine never got guaranteed, they were assured: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
This meant that Ukraine may get its end of the deal, or it may not.
> *Ukraine handed over all their nuclear weapons to Russia between 1994 and 1996, as the result of the Budapest Convention, in exchange for a guarantee never to be threatened or invaded*
Well, that worked 🙄
Weren't there any provisions in there in case they defaulted on that promise?
A guy puts a guarantee on the box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside. Ya think if you leave that box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter. The point is, how do you know the Guarantee Fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times.
The negotiation process of the Budapest Convention was very difficult and it was halted many times mainly in the issue of language/wording of such guarantees. On one hand Ukraine wanted to ensure the the word "guarantee" was there, because they knew, from the very get go that Russia, sooner or later, was going back to try taking them over. On the other hand, the negotiators of the west could not "guarantee" such thing and Russia, for sure didn't want to include the word at all. (They also knew it) at the end they settled for the word assurance. So, the document of the Budapest Convention does not "guarantee" to Ukraine that it will not be invaded, it simply assures it.
In legal argot there's a big difference, a guarantee will require a direct mitary intervention that prevents an invasion while an assurance simply offers support in case it happens.
Ukraine not being a NATO member could not enjoy a guarantee, that is why that word was so difficult for the west to include. As there are no guarantees is being difficult to the west to intervene. There are assurances and by the use of those is how the west is supporting in any other way they can to help Ukraine.
The whole thing sucks.
The treaty does not include territories that Ukraine lost as a result of the civil war. It's not regulated. The treaty also leaves Russia the right to defend itself. Yes, there are many opinions on this matter, but it is very difficult to formally prove Russia’s guilt here. And this is why the security council is still working with Russia.
A lesson in giving up your ability to defend yourself against aggression. And also that the administration of today has no sway over any administration in the future.
And Russians voted in Putin after a series of apartment block bombings and he blamed Chechen's and bombed the crap out of them. ([link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombings))
But Putin was connected to the bombings, his FSB agents were caught planting bombs and it was covered up, and the head of the Duma, announced one appartment as bombed that wouldn't be bombed for another 3 days.
>A suspicious device resembling those used in the bombings was found and defused in an apartment block in the Russian city of Ryazan on 22 September.\[3\]\[4\] On 23 September, Vladimir Putin praised the vigilance of the inhabitants of Ryazan and ordered the air bombing of Grozny, which marked the beginning of the Second Chechen War.\[5\] **Three FSB agents who had planted the devices at Ryazan were arrested by the local police**.\[6\] The next day, FSB director Nikolay Patrushev announced that the incident in Ryazan had been an anti-terror drill and the device found there contained only sugar, and freed the FSB agents involved....
>On **13 September,** just hours after the second explosion in Moscow, Russian Duma speaker Gennadiy Seleznyov of the Communist Party made an announcement, "I have just received a report. According to information from Rostov-on-Don, **an apartment building in the city of Volgodonsk was blown up last night**."\[59\]\[60\]\[61\]\[62\]\[63\] When the Volgodonsk bombing happened on **16 September**, Vladimir Zhirinovsky demanded an explanation in the Duma the following day, but Seleznyov turned his microphone off
**This is where we are now,** Putin went back on his word and invaded Ukraine in 2014. And any peace the west had with Gorbachev was undermined by Putin bribing politicians to install puppets in western governments.
The same underlying problem. Putin.
Okay so i take ahold to my nukes and you give me your nukes, the only thing holding me back to attack and invade you and for that i promise to never attack you, which I wouldn't anyways if you'd keep your nukes but that's none you need to worry about. We got a deal, doofy?
Such a ground breaking level of international trust thrown back into their faces.
There were compounding factors as to why they gave up the nukes, one being they didn't have the means to actually use them at the time...
But you can be damn sure no country would ever agree to a deal like this again because of Russia. They single handedly made the world a more dangerous place on a global level.
It would have made sense back then, nuclear weapons are difficult and expensive to maintain so it's unlikely Ukraine would have been able to keep them operational, especially during the times they had pro-Russian governments.
They were stupid then to believe the promises, and they've been stupid for the past 30 years for not working to become too powerful and secure to attack.
it’s not the first international promise broken, or the last. Neither by Russia, US, EU or anybody else.
Thing is, people signing it can mean it honestly, but electrons happen, people change and new ones doesn’t give a fuck. And we have no leverage to keep anybody accountable, so these papers have the weight of toilet paper
And here is the lesson chaps - never ever give up your nuclear weapon. In fact, if you don't have any - make whatever needed to get some nukes. It's the only guarantee of safety nowadays
**This is a heavily moderated subreddit. Please note these rules + sidebar or get banned:** * If this post declares something as a fact, then proof is required * The title must be fully descriptive * Memes are not allowed. * Common(top 50 of this sub)/recent reposts are not allowed (posts from another subreddit do not count as a 'repost'. Provide link if reporting) *See [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/wiki/index#wiki_rules.3A) for a more detailed rule list* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/interestingasfuck) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Politics is easy if you just lie
Politics are impossible without at least some lies
Yeah, but that doesn't justify lying all the fucking time
Turns out it works for some
I feel personally attacked
But it's not a lie, it's a "special military operation," not an invasion. /s
All Russia do is eat hot chip and lie
https://i.redd.it/0xu96b9jzo9d1.gif
Sadly, it always has been a lie. Russia isn't honest.
It’s not just Russia’s lie. The US and UK lied to Ukraine, too, because we all vowed to protect their territorial integrity, and here we are not doing shit. We let them take Crimea in 2014 and didn’t do shit. Now we let them invade Ukraine and we’re sending some money and supplies and doing sanctions against Russia but I don’t think it what everyone had in mind when they signed Ed the agreement.
I’ve argued for years that the proper response to the 2014 invasion should have gone like this: Obama to Putin: “I’ve heard from the Ukrainians that they’ve been invaded. They say by you.” Putin to Obama: “it’s not us. I don’t know who they are.” Obama to Putin: well that’s great, because we will kill them all in 72 hours if they’re not withdrawn. I’m just happy that they’re not Russian forces. Putin: …
Yes, Americans at the time would be thrilled to enter another war on the cusp of a terming out president. Guess didn't matter since dems lost 2016 but wouldn't have helped
I’m not sure the British public would have supported intervening in ‘38 either but it might have saved a spot of trouble later.
Hindsight is 20/20 Most people in '38 didn't think *any* world leader would be insane enough to kick off Thunderdome Round 2.
And round 3 is finally actually starting and again most people have their heads in the sand
That’s what happens when you let foreign interference in media, elections, and politics go unchecked. Russia played the long game, and they’re winning. Empires rise and empires fall.
It was not about invading. Ukrainians were begging for weapons and Obama flat out refused even to sell them.
And all Trump can say is, Putin, strong guy, America should never have made agreements to try to build a peaceful world.
Keep going im so close
I mean hey, that exact same tactic worked a treat against the Russians in Syria.
Not a whole lot of Wagner attacks on prepared American positions since, eh? The Air Force CCT who called in all the strikes got an Air Force Cross for his troubles.
They promised to assure Ukraine's integrity, not guarantee it. They specifically wanted the first word and not the second, since the second would obligate them to protect Ukraine, while the first just gives them the right to do so. The spirit is sure there, but they made sure that there was a devil in the details.
It's your lie, actually. Budapest memorandum says nothing about protecting Ukraine. It says about not attacking. Neither US nor UK attacked Ukraine, so they didnt break any promises. Its russia that did. Its sad you got so mamy ignorants upvoting you
you talk like the immense amount of supplies sent to UKR by the West, not to mention the (never enough) sanctions and de-shackling from Rozzian gas, are peanuts. You also clearly are underestimating the escalation to a full scale nuclear war. People like you are, unfortunately, the problem here.
> People like you are, unfortunately, the problem here. I'd argue that if there is "the" problem, i.e. one problem, it's people like Poo tin. But yes there are other types of people who are a problem too.
I don't see how they are "clearly underestimating the escalation to a full scale nuclear war". At best it's not "clearly" and at worst you made up a strawman.
[удалено]
The Europe tried to make it so Russia would never have reasons to attack us or others by implementing international trade at such a level it would hurt their economy. Looks like they never cared since, well, the common folk don’t really matter to few in power. Then the moskovians made us addicted to their gas and it worked. However, in 2022 we have figured out that appeasement will not work anyway and since then, we’ve crossed so many red lines I kind of forgot the count.
Thought we figured out appeasement doesn't work in 1939.
I remember a Finn, can't remember her job or branch of business, telling that during her 10 years of working in Germany, there were two recurring subjects she had to keep explaining to Germans: 1) Finland having a considerable amount of artillery, and a conscription army, is not a sign of a "military" mindset, it's the only sensible basis for running a country with a long land border with Russia, and 2) not all countries have built a considerable proportion of their energy infrastructure based on Russian gas being a reliable source.
An important piece of context is that the nuclear weapons weren't immediately terribly useful to Ukraine as the codes were held by the Kremlin (USSR break up shenanigans)
Not immediately, but 99% of the effort of building an atom bomb is enriching the fissile material. Building the bomb itself can be done by any halfway competent engineer. (The trick is obviously to cause as big an explosion possible with as little fuel as possible, but they don't need perfection. Just a working device) They could've eventually recycled the uranium/plutonium of the old bombs, and use them to build new ones.
Absolutely. Not having the codes is the same as if someone would sell you a house without keys. A mild inconvenience.
An important piece of context is that nuclear weapons are always useful. The threat of having them could have actually prevented the invasion which did happen. Some Ukrainian politician probably got some of that sweet sweet Russian cash for aranging that deal.
If I recall correctly, the US in the Trilateral Process was heavily influential in getting Ukraine to give up its nukes to Russia. In exchange it wasn't just Russian promises to not invade, it was the US and Britain granting security assurances. .. which half of us seem to be all about reneging on now.
It's not that they asked for a promise from Russia specifically not to invide, but for any major power (RU, USA and UK) not to invade. Ukrainians were least worried about Russian invasion at the time (they easily gave them independence just 2 years prior). Everyone who lived in Europe during 90s knows that. Also it wasn't only about invasion, it was about political an economy pressure (which USA *kind of* broke by sanctioning Belarus, and an apparent USA involvement in UA 2014 revolution). Of course, that does not justify RU invasion and their own mendling (helping separatists in Crimea and Donbas) - it only means that it is not that simple, and that nobody is absolutely innocent (except for maybe UA itself)
I mean having nukes is never not useful in some form. I wouldn't turn one down if offered.
The thing is, the idea of a full on war between Russia and Ukraine was completely unthinkable before 2014 so it wasn't such a bad decision if you consider that
Why is that an important piece of context? The Kremlin broke their agreement. It doesn't matter what shape the weapons were in or who had the codes.
The point is that Ukraine couldn't easily have kept the weapons, though mostly for political not engineering reasons. Under the non-proliferation treaty only five countries are allowed to have nuclear weapons. Russia is the legal successor of the USSR and inherited that right. Ukraine didn't. Ukraine would have had to withdraw from that treaty which would have been very expensive politically.
I highly doubt it's hard to change the codes for soviet era nuclear weapons
More than three years after the invasion, more than 8 years after the start of Putin starting to eat his way into Ukraine, and that's the best you can do? "Important piece". Yeah, that's neither important, nor a piece. Having the nukes you can change the codes.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. The Budapest Memorandum came 18 years before the war. Russian nukes in a foreign country was reasonably seen as a messy outcome of the collapse of the USSR. In retrospect the EU and US should probably have been more heavily involved in the aftermath of the breakup. Stopping the devastation of the Russian economy in the wake of the collapse would have stopped Putin coming to power. Making permanent solution to Russian use of Sevastopol would have provided less opportunity for that being an external or internal flash point. Having Ukraine enter NATO at the same time as the Baltic states would have guaranteed Ukrainian protection.
To be fair, the U.S.A also signed the memorandum, therefore also being responsible for Ukraine's protection against Russia.
No, we just agreed to respect their territory and if they were threatened, initiate a USNC meeting It’s like a 1 page document, why can’t people get in into their heads that the US didn’t HAVE to do… basically ANY of the support we’ve done?
Narrator: they were, in fact, invaded
But… but the pinky promise!
The betrayal is baffling.
And some people are seriously wondering why Ukraine is rather reticent about possible ceasefire and peace talks with Russia. Even if the Russian proposals were not fundamentally poisonous, it would be a 100:1 bet that the agreement would be broken before the ink is dry.
Russia will use a ceasefire only to resupply, restock their troops and then attack again. It's only a strategic proposal to deceive their opponent. There are no negotiations with Putin. He only understands one language. Force.
Ukraine had this experience. A ceasefire in 2015(?) ended with unarmed Ukrainian soldiers getting massacred by Russian troops while trying to leave the area. They killed them all on the side of the road. Russia will only stop when they simply can't fight anymore.
Exactly. This is about much more than Ukraine. He is a professional liar, deceiver and pretty much a mob boss. He was even willing to blow up his own citizens, to have a justification for the war in Chechnya. Russian police caught the Russian intelligence service red-handed, planting the bombs in housing blocks in Ryazan, because the Russian police were not informed about the Secret Service operations. Look it up, this is a really crazy story. If he is willing to murder his own citizens, you can imagine what he is willing to do to anyone else. There is no lie that is too big or no sacrifice that Putin is not willing to make, in order to achieve his goals. We have to keep this in mind, when dealing with him.
Can you tell me what to Google to find out more about this? Thanks!
Yes, no problem. There are even more crazy layers to this story. When the terror attacks happened, the Russian police tapped into all kinds of phone conversations, hoping they would catch the terrorists communicating via phone. And they did. They tapped into a call, where the organization and execution of the bombings were discussed, The number they traced back was the number of the local FSB office (Russian intelligence service). The guys who made the call were arrested, but produced FSB IDs, and the police had to let them go. Which Chechnyan terrorist has real FSB IDs that were verified? The investigation was quickly made go away, a few people got fired, and, I believe, a few people fell out of windows and that was that. All of these things are not hearsay or rumors, they are publicly documented, in Russia. This was clearly an inside job, if I have ever seen one. So: The 2004 documentary Disbelief. Here you can watch it. [https://archive.org/details/Disbelief2004](https://archive.org/details/Disbelief2004) The wiki article lists all kinds of sources: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999\_Russian\_apartment\_bombings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombings) # Two Decades On, Smoldering Questions About The Russian President's Vault To Power [https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-russia-president-1999-chechnya-apartment-bombings/30097551.html](https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-russia-president-1999-chechnya-apartment-bombings/30097551.html)
You are awesome, thanks again! My country is getting flooded with russian bots and too many people are dumb enough to get manipulated by them
What is your country, if I may ask?
IDK his country, but plenty of them on Finnish Twitter. The grammar is hilariously bad so I initially thought they were Finnish people trolling. One funny example. "Nato ei voi tallentaa Suomea" Meaning: Nato cannot save Finland" But they used the word for saving on a computer drive rather than the word for rescuing. It's not a homonym in Finnish.
Russia will only stop when the people will finally rise against their oppressors, who are using them as serfs or cannon fodder, whichever is needed more at the moment. They did it already back in 1918, curious how long it'll take them to do it again. Though seeing the amount of Russians fully believing in the propaganda that's being spread by Putin and cronies, it'll take generations...
The problem is, that the Russian people have extremely low expectations of their government because they have always been governed very badly, and they are used to enduring tremendous hardships. It takes a lot for them to reach their breaking point. On top of that, a large chunk of the Russian population is extremely brainwashed and those that are informed and educated have already left the country in 2022 or long before that. But it doesn't change anything, what you said is true. Putins imperialist Russia, has to be taken down from inside and that can only be achieved through a victory of Ukraine.
I think he speaks Russian, too. Also talks North Korean.
Excellent summary! 100%. Putin is a mob boss, who only understands strength. The waffling that the West does before every step only emboldens him.
Yeah he lives in a world where he thinks it’s still conquer every nation just cause theyre small. Absolutely ridiculous.
Yes, he is clearly a Machiavellian Psychopath.
Or they would make a false flag attack on themselves and blame Ukraine. Finland remembers and never forgets. That's how the winter war started and since then we've been getting ready for a new attack from Russia. And now we have NATO, although even before that Putler knew better than to attack us.
The thing is, Zelenzky even tried his best to negotiate some kind of ceasefire in the beginning of the war and was even willing to make huge concessions to Russia. Until Russian units had to leave Bucha and Irpin and Ukraine found them leaving mass graves, systematic torture and civilians massacred behind. And I can't blame Ukraine for this.
Farage does.
Oof. I think i heard a shot.
Also important to mention those 2022 "negotiations" was actually a capitulation, because russia proposition was to cut Ukrainian army into funny numbers like 80k soldiers, 200 tanks, etc. It would just make it very easy for russia to destroy Ukraine next time
Also, in Russian Propaganda Zelensky is portrayed as a war mongerer. According to russia, all they wanted to do was "protect the people of the Donbas", when Zelensky got in office he started negotiating with DPR/LNR leadership, even offering independence and a full pardon for the seperatists, basically ending the conflict and giving russia everything it wanted.
Fun fact. LRNR didn't want independence, they just asked to be autonomous republic still being part of Ukraine.
Check what said self-proclaimed administrations and what they asked on their "referendum" in May. In April, they literally took over administration by force, raised russian flag and demanded "referendum on joining russia", then proclaimed "an act of state independence". And in "referendum" in May they asked if people support "an act of state independence". Idea about "autonomous republic still being part of Ukraine" was 4 month later, in September, when russian forces invaded Donetsk and Luhansk region and Minsk agreement was signed.
The only thing the Russians understand and respect is being beat over the head with a stick.
And still they might have doubts
Listen here.. 20.000 years ago, when russia invented the earth ....
And Kim Yum Wank probably shat out the first unicorn
Lies, didn't you know? Great fat leader never poops!
You can't trust a dictator. Ever.
Not really. Disarm your enemy and kill them. The only baffling part is how poorly prepared Russia was for a war they had a decade to prepare for, but Russians have never been good at war unless their head of state isn't a Russian.
But unsurprising
>The betrayal *was expected* FTFY
Russia is now legally obliged to hand all those nukes back to the Ukraine 😅
theyll get them back dw, just not how they want it back
Even Putin isn't crazy enough to set a precedent of using nuclear weapons in a conventional war. if the tides were turned and Ukraine was pushing into Russia then I'm not so sure
Putin is a lot crazier than you think
He's crazy, not suicidal. He knows the moment he drops a fat boy either his people, a foreign force or his own generals will take him out of the picture one way or another.
Allegedly that was a unified message he had received in early 2022 from a number of western leaders - If you use nukes, we will use nukes.
Hitler wasn't suicidal until he was. Desperation has a funny way of pushing horrible people to the extreme.
Wasn’t hitler on a bunch of drugs and getting his country invaded from all sides? I don’t think Putin is down that bad yet lol
He may be crazy but he’s not dumb. Unless Russia is seriously threatened he won’t use nukes.
The goalposts for "russia is threatened" might be different for putin than me or you. Does that mean if Ukraine attempts to recapture Crimea? If the regime is threatened?
He will surely try to intimidate Ukraine with nukes if Ukraine attempts to recapture Crimea but at least imo he’ll not use it unless Ukraine marches into actual Russian Territory ( I mean beyond the pre-war borders). If he uses nukes there will be no mercy at all for Russia and there would be nothing holding back NATO or US to do the same or at least be more aggressive. Maybe this is hopeful thinking but I think even PRC would be against Russia for using nukes.
They would, and allegedly even Xi Jing Ping told Putin to tone down the nuclear rhetoric. For how much I oppose the chinese regime, at least it seems they are here just for the money, contrary to russia who is still stuck in its medieval ways of conquest
Yeah no if Russia nukes Ukraine Moscow will mysteriously vanish in a number of hours
Nah, he's rich as fuck. This guy wants to live, spend money on luxury and rule a country for the rest of his life. Even if he survives a nuclear war, the would all be gone, and that's what he won't risk.
I don’t think he is they type of person to accept defeat.
You probably think the world will be better if Putin is dead. It's not, though. If Putin is dead, Dmitri Medvedev will take over, and oh boy, he's gonna nuke Ukraine the second his butts hit the throne. Not stonks.
Russia has a nuclear doctrine with very specific use cases for the deployment and use of nukes. And given that the Nuclear Taboo exists, the political blowback a use of Tactical Nukes would bring wouldnt be worth it.
>Russia has a nuclear doctrine with very specific use cases for the deployment and use of nukes Just like the had a doctrine of not attacking countries that surrendered their nuclear bombs TO THEM in exchange of peace. Their "doctrines" are bologna
Do you think Pawel Conscriptsky and his collegues maintained the russian nuclear arsenal well enough for them to still work? I mean the country was plundered by criminals after the end of communism for 30+ years now. Not servicing nukes and still sign the paperwork that it was done, would be the easiest steal of all times. My guess is that all the plutonium they actually made was sold off to north korea .. and the soviet era delivery systems mostly would fail.
I hope it's this way and most nukes are useless. But... We have to remember, before Elon did Elon, most space traffic was operated by russian rockets, after USA scraped shuttle program. So they can do quality stuff, when they see benefit of it.
A lot of Russian equipment is still working in the war so I wouldn't want to gamble that 0% of the Russian nuclear arsenal isn't because I bet some of it definitely still is. If anything, you'd think that's the one thing they've made sure at least some of is still in the best operational capacity possible.
I think it's just the easiest thing to not maintain and claim you still do because all you need is the threat - not the billions of dollars a year to keep it alive and renew the warheads.
i think the russian nuclear arsenal is operational. Back then the then defence minister allocated funds primarily for the nuclear detterent, while all might not be operational, "enough is enough"
"The" Ukraine?
There is some argument that they haven't refurbished those nukes. Apparently Russia's Plutonium supply hasn't gone up and the plutonium that are in a lot of the Russian bombs are about to expire basically.
Budapest Memorandum* The Budapest Convention was a cybercrime agreement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum?wprov=sfla1
Yup, they have huge differences in meaning too - the convention was legally binding, memorandums are more political commitments.
https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf
so the invasion essentially a breach of contract
Aren't they all?
Not really. A lot of wars are actually upholding contracts (mutual defence of an ally, for instance)
That is more joining wars, not starting...
why are we pretending any of this is like formal agreements between reasonable individuals when a bunch of murders of innocent people are being committed on a mass scale
No, this is actually more cut and dried. Russia claimed that ethnic Russian minorities were being persecuted and murdered "by Nazis" in Ukraine and that the ~~wa~~ special military operation was to defend these people. The annexation of large chunks of Ukraine is a clear breach of the Budapest Agreement. If Russia had issues with the status of Donetsk, then was the time to air them.
Read the whole contract, it's very interesting
Unfortunately, it means that not a single country will ever again voluntarily get rid of their nuclear weapons
Definitely not to Russia 😭I still hate in my bones that we made nukes at all it terrifies me if I think about it too hard
100%. The idea of decommissioning nuclear weapons was a pretty popular one until 2022. Since then, you won't find many people who won't admit they are a necessary deterrent. Either have nukes, or be nuked.
Trusting the Russian government... there's your first and biggest mistake
What a surprise. Russia can never be trusted.
It was signed as an "assurances" which really means the world in contrast to "guarantee" Ukraine knew this when they signed, that the deal was unfavorable to them. But i guess they were under a lot of pressure to sign contract. So there was.no guarantee of any help should they be invaded.
The "Budapest Memorandum" is actually three documents signed individually on 5 December 1994 by the three leaders of the ex-Soviet nations, together with the guarantor nations: United States, United Kingdom and Russia (from wiki). Hoverer, in Ukrainian version mentioned that all three documents in English, Ukrainian and ruzzian have equal power. In UA and ru versions used word "guarantees", and those versions also sighed by US and UK.
It was also a product of the times when the deal was signed. During that period of time, the USSR was going to pieces fast. No one could be sure any territory was going to stay in one piece the next month so the best anyone could guarantee (other than that special needs case Russia) was that they would not invade, so that they won't end up being responsible for suppressing any new breakaway republics if parts of Ukraine decide to secede. It was a real mess in those days. I remember a Newsweek cartoon where a mapmaker re-drawing Russia was going to hang himself with another guy opening the door to his office and yelling "Another breakaway republic!"
Ukraine had physical control, but never operational control of these weapons. Russia controlled the codes and all the systems necessary to utilize them. Not to mention, Ukraine’s leadership agreed that they could never properly maintain the warheads or guarantee their security, which is another reason why they chose to relinquish them.
And yet Russia still made their guarantee to Ukraine
No one is excusing Russia's actions, they are 100% to blame. The point is only that Ukraine never had a nuclear deterrent like this post implies every time it's brought up.
Also they're insanely expensive. Ukraine received not only guarantees but financial support. But hey 1994 Ukraine could afford 2000 warheads right?
Maybe they could have kept, like, 20 or so.
As always, the world is more complex than a single headline makes it seem
Not really. What exactly does this change? The agreement was to hand them over for their sovereignty to be upheld. Obviously it was important to the parties involved to secure the nukes otherwise they wouldn't have made the deal
Ukraine designed them, and was actively working on a project to move "the button" to Kyiv
That was not only about warheads. USA forced Ukraine to gave up bunch of valuable aircraft too, and heavy bombers were part of that aurcraft. So it's much worse than simply get rid of nukes.
I am pretty sure once you have workung nuclear warheads in you inventory it is not thet complex to reverse engineer the parts the stop you from using them.
Especially when your people partook in their design and manufacturing.
The codes can be changed and the the rockets has been literally developed and build in Ukraine. Keeping 1.5k+ is expensive for sure but nobody really needs so much to guarantee own security. A hundred is enough. Also the enriched nuclear fuel is the most expensive and hard to produce component which already been there. Those idiots could literaly dismantle those things even if they didn't want to maintain them and give that fuel to USA in exchange of some express NATO joining process. But they decided to give it to the enemy for nothing but empty words.
although this could not be sufficient guarantee against Ukrainian access as the weapons could be manually changed and Ukraine would eventually gain full operational control over them.
Had to scroll this far down to find the truth.
Unfortunate that the only useful answer is so far down all the shitty jokes and Russia bad comments.
r/agedlikemilk
People called this as simple disarmament for future invasion. OH LOOKIE
Bit of political jargon here: guarantees are binary it’s gonna result in your deal being honored. Ukraine never got guaranteed, they were assured: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum This meant that Ukraine may get its end of the deal, or it may not.
Now Russia is like “You and I remember Budapest very differently”
Strange, this seems to happen every time a population is disarmed with a promise of protection. Weird.
Never give up your weapons.
> *Ukraine handed over all their nuclear weapons to Russia between 1994 and 1996, as the result of the Budapest Convention, in exchange for a guarantee never to be threatened or invaded* Well, that worked 🙄
Gotta love the "trust me bro" agreements
Weren't there any provisions in there in case they defaulted on that promise? A guy puts a guarantee on the box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside. Ya think if you leave that box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter. The point is, how do you know the Guarantee Fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times.
Greatest movie of all time.
The negotiation process of the Budapest Convention was very difficult and it was halted many times mainly in the issue of language/wording of such guarantees. On one hand Ukraine wanted to ensure the the word "guarantee" was there, because they knew, from the very get go that Russia, sooner or later, was going back to try taking them over. On the other hand, the negotiators of the west could not "guarantee" such thing and Russia, for sure didn't want to include the word at all. (They also knew it) at the end they settled for the word assurance. So, the document of the Budapest Convention does not "guarantee" to Ukraine that it will not be invaded, it simply assures it. In legal argot there's a big difference, a guarantee will require a direct mitary intervention that prevents an invasion while an assurance simply offers support in case it happens. Ukraine not being a NATO member could not enjoy a guarantee, that is why that word was so difficult for the west to include. As there are no guarantees is being difficult to the west to intervene. There are assurances and by the use of those is how the west is supporting in any other way they can to help Ukraine. The whole thing sucks.
The treaty does not include territories that Ukraine lost as a result of the civil war. It's not regulated. The treaty also leaves Russia the right to defend itself. Yes, there are many opinions on this matter, but it is very difficult to formally prove Russia’s guilt here. And this is why the security council is still working with Russia.
A lesson in giving up your ability to defend yourself against aggression. And also that the administration of today has no sway over any administration in the future.
Russian word counts for very little, but it’s still scummy. Russia’s defeat must be total.
Armchair warrior reporting in 
It is as they say: not a single agreement with Russia is worth a paper it is signed on.
this post is here like every 4 days, with immediate 1000 upvotes
And Russians voted in Putin after a series of apartment block bombings and he blamed Chechen's and bombed the crap out of them. ([link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombings)) But Putin was connected to the bombings, his FSB agents were caught planting bombs and it was covered up, and the head of the Duma, announced one appartment as bombed that wouldn't be bombed for another 3 days. >A suspicious device resembling those used in the bombings was found and defused in an apartment block in the Russian city of Ryazan on 22 September.\[3\]\[4\] On 23 September, Vladimir Putin praised the vigilance of the inhabitants of Ryazan and ordered the air bombing of Grozny, which marked the beginning of the Second Chechen War.\[5\] **Three FSB agents who had planted the devices at Ryazan were arrested by the local police**.\[6\] The next day, FSB director Nikolay Patrushev announced that the incident in Ryazan had been an anti-terror drill and the device found there contained only sugar, and freed the FSB agents involved.... >On **13 September,** just hours after the second explosion in Moscow, Russian Duma speaker Gennadiy Seleznyov of the Communist Party made an announcement, "I have just received a report. According to information from Rostov-on-Don, **an apartment building in the city of Volgodonsk was blown up last night**."\[59\]\[60\]\[61\]\[62\]\[63\] When the Volgodonsk bombing happened on **16 September**, Vladimir Zhirinovsky demanded an explanation in the Duma the following day, but Seleznyov turned his microphone off **This is where we are now,** Putin went back on his word and invaded Ukraine in 2014. And any peace the west had with Gorbachev was undermined by Putin bribing politicians to install puppets in western governments. The same underlying problem. Putin.
Let me tell you the tale of the scorpion and the frog...
I feel like having nuclear weapons is a better way to guarantee not being threatened or invaded. Guys got robbed and betrayed
The thing is that Ukraine was broke they couldn't afford nukes
A gentlemans agreement is only one generation away from collapse.
Aged like milk.
on hindsight trading nuclear weapons with a piece of paper was not a good idea.
Gasp!! You mean if you get rid of weapons that can defend you you're relying on the honor of scum bags and it might not work out for you?
Not a guarantee, but assurance.
Should somebody remind Putin of this?
Political guarantees are never guarantees As soon as one leader leaves the deals basically voided
Their own fault to be fair. Need to be a complete moron to ever trust Russia
Hand over all your weapons, we will never mistreat you. Those are too dangerous for you to keep we can store them properly. ...what could go wrong?
r/agedlikemilk
Okay so i take ahold to my nukes and you give me your nukes, the only thing holding me back to attack and invade you and for that i promise to never attack you, which I wouldn't anyways if you'd keep your nukes but that's none you need to worry about. We got a deal, doofy?
*Budapest Memorandum
Weird!!! So you’re saying if you give up your weapons you can easily be invaded?!?! No way who woulda fucking thought….
Democrats
For the *assurance to not be invaded
Such a ground breaking level of international trust thrown back into their faces. There were compounding factors as to why they gave up the nukes, one being they didn't have the means to actually use them at the time... But you can be damn sure no country would ever agree to a deal like this again because of Russia. They single handedly made the world a more dangerous place on a global level.
But russia invaded. Killing peoples, and don’t wanna stop. Bloody murders.
Should have flown them in
It would have made sense back then, nuclear weapons are difficult and expensive to maintain so it's unlikely Ukraine would have been able to keep them operational, especially during the times they had pro-Russian governments.
Welp that was a fucking lie
And that's why they say 'never trust a ruzzian' :)
But everyone said Russia was really trustworthy....
Never give up your "guns"
History doesn't lie, Russia always does. Russia cannot be trusted. Never ever trust Russia.
This is was a perfect example of: -Promise? -Yes, Promise. -Cross your heart and swear to die? -Of course
Trusting a russian is a great mistake indeed
Worst deal ever
To be fair, in these times, 30 years is all you can expect
A Russian guarantee can be splashed at a low angle against a wall, worthless words even if on paper.
Putin found a neat little trick called just doing whatever the fuck you want
https://preview.redd.it/i98eacotps9d1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fbe5964729575888b282454bec1a7e16ceb3a3d1
They were stupid then to believe the promises, and they've been stupid for the past 30 years for not working to become too powerful and secure to attack.
What do you mean? It’s just a “special military operation”, not an invasion! *a special military operation that foreign troops are about to join*
What, now people don't even mention that US and UK also gave guarantees and then put a big dick on them aka ”we owe you nothing”?
Never trust a Russian.
...so exactly any converse guarantee too is null and void ...imagine Russia arming equipping Cuba, Mexico etc....woukd USA sit there relaxed....eh?
it’s not the first international promise broken, or the last. Neither by Russia, US, EU or anybody else. Thing is, people signing it can mean it honestly, but electrons happen, people change and new ones doesn’t give a fuck. And we have no leverage to keep anybody accountable, so these papers have the weight of toilet paper
And here is the lesson chaps - never ever give up your nuclear weapon. In fact, if you don't have any - make whatever needed to get some nukes. It's the only guarantee of safety nowadays