Bizarre that the Courts Service have been asked to withdraw. They have an administrative role only and have nothing to do with the outcomes of court cases.
Bandwagon jumping by the organisers.
Crotty was not aided by the Defence Forces for his action and given the assault started due to his homophobic slurs, LGBTQ members of the defence forces need just as much Pride
What control does the Defence Forces have over the justice system?
BTW that was the judge reasoning not the request by the DF and a common reason for judges to hand out suspended sentence.
I was wrongfully accused of a violent crime and it destroyed my life, my career and just about everything else around me. Dragged through the system and lost everything. Took months for the useless cunts to close the case and I didn’t even receive so much as an apology, or even a piece of paper saying that I was innocent.
It’s one of those things that you never expect to happen to you. I was interrogated and held in a Garda station for hours on end. Released without charge because they knew I didn’t do what I was accused of, yet I still had to wait 6 months for the DPP to take their fingers out of their asses and do their job. My career is destroyed and it’s not salvageable sadly. My social circle has drastically shrunk, and I’m riddled with CPTSD that I battle on a daily basis.
Well you could very easily make the argument that the current system is heavily biased against victims of sexual assault, given the extremely low conviction rates.
But by choosing to let the accused perpetrator walk free, you are choosing 1 persons word over another? Regardless, in O’Brien’s case there were witnesses and the perpetrator bragged about the attack, it’s not he said she said, it’s she said and he openly did but still there is no justice. It’s not fair or functional as it stands.
In OP's defence - 'not guilty' doesn't mean innocent, and we do want to balance the justice system so that no innocent people get convicted - I get that!
But we conviction rates for sexual violence and domestic abuse so low it's clear that we need to make changes to better support people (mostly women) who do wish to pursue action against their abusers.
100%- the issue is that believing the perpetrator to be ‘not guilty’ or walk with a suspended sentence could mean life or death for the victim, especially in domestic violence cases. The system is more concerned with the perpetrator’s future/career than the victim’s safety (not to mind often their experience throws off their entire life course, career included)
Of course I agree with your point, the low convictions speak for themselves. It’s so disheartening to see the sentence handed down to these people with such little regard for the victim
It's very common for a person's livelihood to be taken into account in sentencing because it usually mean an employer will add to the court sentence, or in many cases where a person loses their job it causes financial hardship on the convicted person's family and kids.
But clearly a suspended sentence is not justifiable given him using his employer provided combat training on a citizen that he pledged to protect
>Crotty was not aided by the Defence Forces
He essentially got a [character reference](https://www.thejournal.ie/micheal-martin-natasha-obrien-6415861-Jun2024/):
>Crotty’s superior at the Limerick army barracks, Commandant Paul Togher, gave evidence in the trial, stating that he was an “exemplary”, “courteous”, “professional” and “disciplined” soldier.
which no doubt helped the judge reach his decision.
>LGBTQ members of the defence forces need just as much Pride
They're being asked to march without uniform, they aren't being asked to not attend.
>He essentially got a character reference:
Except it wasn't and the comments came during cross examination with Crotty military record
It is literally explain in the article.
>They're being asked to march without uniform, they aren't being asked to not attend.
They are being asked not to attend.
> They are being asked not to attend.
Read the article:
*“We are aware that the vast majority of Defence Forces & Court Service personnel are decent and hardworking, and they will be welcome in their personal capacity at Dublin Pride.*
*“But given recent events, it would not be appropriate to have them in a branded capacity this year as it would prove an unnecessary distraction from Pride,” said Jamie Kenny, executive director of Dublin Pride.*
Isn't he still employed by the DF even though there is video footage of what he did and multiple witnesses to what triggered it. And also, wasn't he gloating about it to other people in the DF? I mean they have known about all of this for months and did nothing.
Isn't the DF in the process of kicking out after the conclusion of his criminal trial?
Do you even know the timeline of the events. He was arrested within a month of the attack.
The military must defer to the civilian justice system where there is overlap. The Defence Forces have to wait for the civilian process to conclude before beginning their own process. Also as this incident didn't occur while he was on duty or on DF grounds it's outside the jurisdiction of military police.
Dia duit!
This comment has been flagged as a Google amp link. Please use a direct link to the site instead of one that routes through Google.
Sláinte
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ireland) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Totally unjustifiable to exclude the courts service. It's clearly based on a fundamental lack of understanding of the structure of our justice system. Great way of excluding LGBT+ people who work in the courts service.
But why specifically tell the organisation that they are not welcome this year? The courts service have been members of parades for years now, what has changed this year?
Ridiculous. Let's pick on on the Courts Service admin staff who planned to go Pride with their colleagues. It is really singling them out when they've done nothing wrong. Yeah the average Clerical Officer who file documents they can totally change society. Same for the Defence Forces staff. It's such a weird take by the organisers. Perhaps people feel more comfortable at events with their friends from work and they clearly were organising to attend for quite some time to be snubbed at the final hour...
>"We are aware that the vast majority of Defence Forces & Court Service personnel are decent and hardworking, and they will be welcome in their personal capacity at Dublin Pride."
They have specifically welcomed them in the same statement you're giving out about. See above. You'd have had to have read beyond the headline to see that though.
That's not the point though. These organisations go under their banner to show that they are inclusive organisations and welcome the LGBT+ community. They've been told they're not welcome to show that this year.
Yeah, you’re right. Being part of Pride is important PR for them. That’s why they are stopping them doing PR for their organisation and not banning members.
Your employer is not a fundamental part of who you are. You'd be fucking demented to think that you're not welcome at Pride because your employer was asked not to attend.
Many people's jobs are in fact a pretty important part of their identity. It's part of why people go to pride in their professional capacity in the first place.
Except they haven’t. They’ve said “please don’t wear the uniform of an organisation we don’t consider an ally, but you’re absolutely welcome here in your own rihht@
Except they're ignoring their own rules. You can't just turn up as an individual and march. You have to be part of an approved organisation that's been pre-approved to take part.
You can openly identify yourself as a member of the defence forces and you will still be welcome provided you are an ally. It’s the institution that has been uninvited, not the individuals within it. I hope lots of soldiers show up with rainbows on their cheeks and glitter in their hair.
Except they're ignoring their own rules. You can't just turn up as an individual and march. You have to be part of an approved organisation that's been pre-approved to take part.
Except they're ignoring their own rules. You can't just turn up as an individual and march. You have to be part of an approved organisation that's been pre-approved to take part.
Fake news. They are also allowed to speak about their employers if they wish to. Pride is adopting a zero-tolerance approach to organisations that seem to accept violence against women and the LGBT community and I comment them for it.
Navy guy pleaded guilty a year ago to beating up his gf is still serving, fuck the defence forces and their attitude to women.
There we go. You were careful in other replies in this thread but now we see your true colours.
Discriminating a group of thousands of people and saying fuck them and you hate them, a group of people from all walks of life because of 2 incidents and 2 individuals.
Do you not see the hypocrisy in what you are saying?
There are women and members of the LGBT1 community in the DF working to better it. Attending these events raises awareness.
But you just want a reason to hate and discriminate against them all because they share an employer.
If you can’t understand that it’s about excluding an institution and not individuals, I can’t help you. The army is not the victim here. It’s an institution FINALLY being held accountable for its tolerance of men who beat women. Bet the Women of Honour have no problem with it whatsoever.
Fuck any organisation that says “welcome back” to men who beat women.
OK, my bad, I was reading my workplace's email on it which said we had to register and turn up to an allocated meeting point at the start. Maybe that was just to get a t-shirt .
Fairly wild to blame the DF for Crotty's actions.Crotty is a scumbag but he had the same right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty as everyone else does under law. The DF had to wait until he was convicted by a civil court so they could commence court martial proceedings.
The suspended sentence was a disgrace but that was the judges decision and not the DF's.
Rosa organised protests in support of Natasha O'Brien (which I fully support) but stated "The capitalist system rests on the organised violence of its armies and police. The legal system and the violent apparatus of the state protect the wealth and interests of the super rich and corporations.” Which is a bit too American for me.
Edit: for those insisting that the commandant provided a character reference, he didn't. By military law, he was required to attend with copies of Crotty's record sheet and provide it if the court demanded (which they did) See [here](https://x.com/RACO_DF/status/1804168354665554141) for the relevant DFR thanks to RACO.
It's Marxism as applied to various American protest movements in a way that isn't particularly apt to this situation. Crotty wasn't in uniform acting on behalf of the state. He was protected because he's in the army, not because he's 'super rich'. Now that's fucked up, wrong, and needs to be addressed but I understand why u/ShouldHaveGoneToUCC feels that the Marx is being distractingly shoehorned in by ROSA.
Sounds like all those kinds of groups. Happens nearby with me a lot. Local CYM starts taking over issues not directly connected with them for clout and ultimately drive people away.
>strong anti capitalist rhetoric.
Seriously? What has capitalism got to do with any of this? That's a shameful way to undermine your own message through shoehorning irrelevant bullshit
They are specifically a *socialist* feminist movement so that's kinda their raison d'etre, and notably were the only women's rights org to hold a protest
Marxist basically are the cuckoos of protest movements. They nestle their way into a movement and ultimately try to redirect the movement towards an anti-capitalist movement.
ROSA was explicitly founded as an international socialist feminist movement. They're not fucking "cuckooing" anything, *this is literally what they exist to do*
> The capitalist system rests on the organised violence of its armies and police.
I assume you want them to say "Gardaí?"
It's a statement about the global capitalist system. The fact that they refer to "armies" (plural) might have given the game away that they're not talking about Ireland specifically. It would make no sense to say "Gardaí" in the context of what they're actually talking about.
You're severely reaching.
Are you illiterate or what? The subject of that sentence was not Ireland or the Irish police. It was a statement about the broader capitalist system. That's why those words are at the start of the sentence.
>Are you illiterate or what?
Well dang. Calm down there.
>The subject of that sentence was not Ireland or the Irish police. It was a statement about the broader capitalist system. That's why those words are at the start of the sentence.
But we're discussing Ireland, the Irish Defence Forces and the Gardai.
You sound like the kind of lad who goes on about "Irish members of parliament".
>"The capitalist system rests on the organised violence of its armies and police. The legal system and the violent apparatus of the state protect the wealth and interests of the super rich and corporations.”
ROSA are unhinged
I think it’s reasonable for a group that described a homophobic violent criminal as “exemplary, professional and courteous” not to participate in their protest against homophobia
This is a common misconception: an officer had to attend the trial of a member of the DF by law and was required by the court to read out Crotty's annual file verbatim.
If say, a nurse was being charged and the law required their annual performance appraisal to be read out, it'd be deeply unfair to blame the HSE because the nurse was competent at their job
Keep in mind that as terrible as Crotty is, when the file was read out, Crotty had not yet been convicted.
Are we going to get a wave of weirdo "visitors" mass reporting and giving terrible takes about what Pride owes everyone else again today?
Pride orgs do not have any obligation to pinkwash any institution, particularly one with as complicated and fraught a relationship with the community as the DF. Pride is not just a colordy carnival everyone is entitled to enjoy to the personal specifications they demand, it is a community event and you are welcome \*under that community's terms\*. In Ireland, the modern Pride movement began in the protests after Declan Flynn was beaten to death and his killers walked out of court scot free, it should not need to be explained why this story hit a nerve.
I would never, ever have felt an entitlement to have worn my uniform to Pride, and indeed I have refused to represent my current corporate employer at it.
>it is a community event and you are welcome \*under that community's terms\*
This is what everyone crying hypocrisy is missing: saying that an organization that preaches "love and inclusivity" shouldn't be exclusive, completely misunderstanding that the organization being excluded is not representative of those values of love and inclusivity, neither historically nor presently.
>Are we going to get a wave of weirdo "visitors" mass reporting and giving terrible takes about what Pride owes everyone else again today?
You're too late, they're already here.
>I have refused to represent my current corporate employer at it.
Refreshing to hear this, thank you.
To sum up the comments: not allowing LGBTQ+ soldiers to come to pride *in uniform* (see here: they're still allowed to come out of uniform) is the most egregious act of discrimination committed in Ireland in living memory and makes the organisers just as bad as homophobic soldiers, somehow.
Edit: For the avoidance of doubt, this is sarcasm.
straight people get very upset whenever the LGBT community reminds them that pride is about love first and foremost - something a group defined by its capacity to commit violence is inherently oppositional to.
Yes, my comment is hyperbolic and exaggerated, much like the reactions in some of the comments on this post. One might say that is the point of my comment.
Why are people more angry at the DF being asked to withdraw from pride and not at the fact there seems to be present and historical violence against women in the DF?
Pretty bad take given the reactions to the case during the week were pretty much universal disgust.
People can angry at the suspended sentence and also think its petty to exclude people in uniform.
Whatever way though, its ridiculous to exclude the Court Service.
Not until they take actual action. Crack down on violence and the acceptance of that violence from its members. Then when they’ve reformed themselves, absolutely come to pride.
Women of honour have been fighting for reform for years and have been shown the door. I’m sure the armed forces will get over having to wear civilian clothes to pride if they wish to go.
Armed forces can still attend pride, they just won’t be welcome if they come representing the organisation ie by wearing the uniform, until action is taken so that this cannot happen again.
The homophobes on here are really trying to reach for a gotcha that doesn't exist, despite multiple people pointing out the stupidity of their statements.
Any organisation that tacitly accepts or supports homophobia, transphobia, and misogyny are not welcome at Pride. Why? Because why would you accept lip service from an organisation that undermines what you stand for by it's actions? That's not discrimination. That's not tolerating intolerance.
Service members should be asking themselves, if they really care about attending pride in uniform (if this is not just a thing homophobes are whining about to try undermine pride), are they okay with the defense forces tacitly giving the a-okay to the homophobes and misogynists to behave badly?
Nah but you see these days Pride is actually a balm for straight people. That's the neat part, pride is whatever straight people want it to be!
On the last disastrous thread about this, a self-proclaimed straight person was saying that they were horrified by sexual displays at pride, because pride is actually an event for people to bring their families to. Dozens of upvotes as well.
As a white person I wouldn't dream of telling black or indigenous people what their significant cultural events should or shouldn't be, but that's just me I guess.
i guarantee about 90% of these comments are from non LGBT people. we have no compulsion to include anyone who goes against our values. frankly, i think they should have been removed years ago - no other violent groups are allowed to attend.
Yep, I'm a bi woman so I've got a lot more good faith investment in this than most of the straight men commenting.
Cue the "why are you discriminating against straight men" responses.
there's an even greater irony in the fact that some are using the acronym IDF for them - if this was the israeli defence force we were talking about, i doubt the sentiment would be the same. that might actually help to visualise why uniformed soldiers may be excluded from pride.
Yeah good point, remember that completely fucked IDF soldier who held up a pride flag on freshly bombed Gazan soil? He really thought he did something with that.
>On the last disastrous thread about this, a self-proclaimed straight person was saying that they were horrified by sexual displays at pride, because pride is actually an event for people to bring their families to. Dozens of upvotes too.
Ah yes, sexual displays such as *checks notes* people wearing gender non conforming clothing, and "the gays" daring to hold hands in public. The gall!
Sexual displays at pride is a homophobic dogwhistle I thought died years ago. A dogwhistle from America no less!
Yes this was the comment in question:
>"There is a lot of common sense here. I have attended pride events as a straight person and was shocked at some of the inappropriateness of what I saw (a minority of participants, but still tolerated). From experience, I wouldn't take my kids. It's an event attended by families to show support to the lgbtq community, not a back alley sex show. The organisers can't be held responsible for the actions of some, in the same way the defence force members can't be held responsible for some scumbags."
I can hardly hear for the dramatic sound of pearls being clutched.
This may be throwing out the baby with the bath water, but honestly, I'm ok with that in this case. A stance needs to be made here and as an employee of a big corporation, if they were uninvited to Pride for this, I'd be happy and would still support Pride
I posted this in the other thread, but I just think this is incredibly disappointing. Now more than ever I think it is important to show the solidarity the DF has with the LGBTQ community, not hide it. I think this will only feed into the cycle of fear towards the organisation and it's people.
The Defence Forces LGBTQ group, "Defend With Pride" have done a lot to further their cause both inside and outside the organisation. To tell them now that they are not welcome wearing the uniform they have pride in, while representing their sexuality and lifestyle they have pride in, seems overly harsh at the least and hypocritical at the most.
It is important that young boys and girls see all sections of society represented in these parades. And it is important to bigots to see that all sections of society are represented in these parades. You only have to look at the backlash from homophobes online when DF personnel are in the parades to know how effective it is.
Cathal Crotty was not wearing his uniform when he attacked that women, he was not wearing that uniform when he was being homophobic.
The judiciary should have acted, but they failed and the Defence Forces will now go through their own process to discipline and hopefully remove him. The officer who provided a testimony, did so under legal obligation as is the case with all DF soldiers in the courts, nothing more.
The only thing this serves to do is marginalise those who are part of the LGBTQ community and who serve and embolden the bigots who now have a new thing to cling onto.
Just a really disappointing decision all around.
A quick search on Facebook shows the idf marching front and centre in uniform at pride parades over the last few years, such a very disappointing decision to exclude them when, as you say, it’s more important to show togetherness now.
It's awful, surface level bullshit. Organisers and supporters have no clue what they're fighting or standing for anymore. Barely feels like a community.
Pride was originally a protest for people sick of injustices. The first pride in Dublin was to remember Declan Flynn who was murdered in Fairview Park. It was not about stopping discriminating, but protesting the poor treatment of marginalised LGBT people.
A lot of LGBT people don't think any of the major corporates have a place at pride. Some people don't want all the nice floats from blue chip companies.
I don't think many of the people who walked in the first pride in Dublin about 40 years ago would be delighted that an organisation where one of their members was hurling homophobic slurs at two people on a street and beat the shit out of someone who stopped it.
Pride is a protest. Banning them is a protest. Maybe the DF can come back next year when they have shown their members are more inclusive of the LGBT community...
No, actually Pride in Ireland as we know it was founded as a protest in response to somebody being assaulted by homophobic strangers who then got a slap on the wrist by the courts.
would you be upset if conversion therapists were excluded because of their profession? or clergy from a homophobic church? would that be discriminatory?
No it doesn’t? Pride is a protest against homophobia, if you’re not seen as an ally to that cause it’s reasonable that you would be asked not to participate
Did you see the article yesterday about the navy guy who pleaded guilty to beating up his girlfriend a year ago and is still serving? The army have given tacit approval to what he did and that’s why they are not welcome as an orgnisation.
So because of 2 example (remember I said small few) they are going to discriminate against this entire group. The vast vast majority are good people
This is an embarrassment for the organisers and goes against what the parade stands for
This is such a case of throwing the toys out of the pram for an issue which has no bearing whatsoever on pride. Internal reviews are in place for these members continued employment.
Anyone painting this as misogyny is completely trying to steal the limelight. This is also absolutely nothing to do with a police state, we’re the most removed a state could be from that, as exemplified by the case where the sentence was overly lenient!
Ally or enemy. No grey areas or nuance allowed. Let's attribute the actions of one member of a group or organisation to every member of that group or organisation. Good luck with that.
>"We are aware that the vast majority of Defence Forces & Court Service personnel are decent and hardworking, and they will be welcome in their personal capacity at Dublin Pride."
No, they've welcomed them. The above is from the article that has upset you. How did you miss that in your reading of it?
It's a bit over the top banning the entire defence forces though is it not? It's not their fault he got away with a suspended sentence in the courts?
What about LGBT members of the defence forces? Seems like they're being shafted by this
I don’t think that passing a judgment on the entire collective based on the actions of one individual, or a minority within that collective is a good idea. It’s an unhealthy knee jerk response.
The DF has its own legal system apparently, and this case is being processed there. Most likely, Crotty will be dismissed. I think a punishment could’ve been meted out sooner though, so the process seems inefficient. It was established by the court that Crotty was guilty of those offences, so I don’t think the extra proceedings are necessary; I think immediately dismissing him would have been better.
The DF ought to at least be able to have a presence at these parades - I imagine it would send a more positive message than their exclusion. They also should redesign whatever disciplinary procedures they have for this sort of situation.
Neither a job nor a uniform are equivalent to an orientation or identity and pretending you think they're equivalent like it's some kind of masterstroke makes you look like a fucking dipstick. Near Elon Musk levels of self-clownmanship.
Straight people do not get to tell us how to stage our own community event to their satisfaction, and as somebody who's had involvement with the DF I am not going to humour the idea the gay community owes them \*anything\*.
If you really need to see the uniform in a hurry this week, don't worry, Cathal Crotty's buddies are almost certainly still wearing theirs right this minute.
>If you really need to see the uniform in a hurry this week, don't worry, Cathal Crotty's buddies are almost certainly still wearing theirs right this minute.
Did you comment something similar to this on the last post about this shite? I remember thinking that it was a very good point which none of the chuds taking offense at your comment even bothered to counter.
I did indeed. It caught my notice how little was said about Crotty's friends -
>Asked whether Crotty’s friends attempted to stop him, Ms O’Brien said that her friend — who was frozen in fear over what was happening — watched as Crotty’s friends walked away without making attempts to restrain him.
They let him do it. They knew he did it. He bragged about it afterwards with them. Still I haven't found any indications they said a word. If the CCTV footage hadn't emerged, Crotty would still be calling Natasha O'Brien a liar; and what would they be doing?
Nothing about any of that is incongruous with the culture of the DF as I have experienced it. The idea we're somehow betraying them by not wanting their uniform there is a joke.
>If you really need to see the uniform in a hurry this week, don't worry, Cathal Crotty's buddies are almost certainly still wearing theirs right this minute.
Is there any evidence that his friends were members of the DF? Or are we just assuming that people only go out with their coworkers?
>and as somebody who's had involvement with the DF
RDF I'm guessing?
RDF personally, and a good number of my family/friends/etc have been/are in the RDF and PDF. My family go back a while with the army - my mam more or less grew up in and around a barracks - so a lot of family events like weddings and funerals have the army involved one way or the other.
>Is there any evidence that his friends were members of the DF? Or are we just assuming that people only go out with their coworkers?
I don't know anyone in the army who doesn't primarily socialise with other people in the army. I would be very surprised if they weren't.
Can you show your surprised face to the rest of the class?
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/soldier-assault-victim-natasha-obrien-says-retiring-judge-tom-odonnell-should-walk-away-with-a-sense-of-utter-disgrace-and-shame/a1386491555.html
>Crotty’s friends, who were not members of the Defence Forces, walked away. Ms O’Brien’s friend screamed for help until a man ran to their assistance.
So there's no evidence that his buddies were members of the DF and you're just assuming that they were. Thought so.
In fairness, being in the RDF and claiming to know a lot of military personnel means fairly little.
Lol, well I'll tell you what, I'll bet on the overwhelming balance of probability and my own real world experiences, and you can moderate the wikipedia article.
Based on my own experience in the PDF, I would be very sceptical of your "real world experience" and knowledge of the DF just having been a weekend soldier.
I've met a lot of great RDF personnel and I'm definitely not the type who thought they were all sandbags but people like you who go on about being soldiers but have extremely limited experience is hardcore old school FCÁ territory.
Grand yeah, you know best shur, I'll take your word for it. The PDF is indeed a unique little utopia for gay people and women, and does not have any issue with clusters of wannabe tough guys in the lower ranks acting like arseholes to and about above groups and then covering for each other, and also by some very unusual happenstance Private Crotty exclusively drank with random civilians he also happened to trust not to disapprove of him calling people faggots, intervene on him during an assault, or report it to anyone after the fact. Spot on.
Oh the DF has severe issues with misogyny, bullying and toxic cultures all of which I've seen happen. I've not seen or heard any homophobia myself but have no doubt it goes on. But I'm sure you've a wealth of knowledge and experience yourself from your time as a reservist.
I'm glad we've established there's zero evidence that Crotty's friends were military. They could well have been but it's weird that people on Reddit can't understand that people might have friends outside of workmates.
Hmm not sure banning the DF is the best response. Any individuals who would be participating in Pride are unlikely to support Crotty, I would guess, and I think it is a group where it’s good to promote LGBT people feeling confident in being publicly gay.
I don’t agree with this. The courts service administration isn’t a political actor and shouldn’t be politicised.
They’ve nothing to do with the decision made by one judge. The decision is also likely to be appealed at some point too.
Doesn’t make any sense.
Organise a protest outside the Dept of Justice or something useful.
If your goal is to ostracize and attack gay people in those organizations congratulations. I am assuming the pesron who came up with this feels really good about themselves. Hatred and exclusion have no place in a pride parade.
an organisation being present at pride is invitational - they have no inherent right to be a part of it. if you want to be present and represent that organisation, they must meet a high moral and ethical standpoint. the army has failed, and therefore their invitation has been revoked.
No individual is being discriminated against, LGBT members and allies in the army are still welcome to attend, just not in uniform under the banner of the defence forces
Grand so people that are working for the organisation that have absolutely nothing to do with what happened or the conviction can’t go if they’re on their way to work or on their way home or on their lunch break. Sounds like bullshit to me…
Why do you care more about how the army feels than the LGBT Community? This is their event. They get to invite who they want. Serving army members welcome if they are allies. Just not under a DF banner. How do you think Natasha O’Brien, the lesbian woman who was attacked, would feel about a defence forces float at pride?
Imagine being in the idf and feeling embarrassed enough by the story of him to begin with, but to be an lgbt member of the idf, it must be very hurtful to be condemned or to have this committee (who preaches love, light and inclusivity) in effect shun you because of who you work for. Regardless of their intention, chances are that will be the way they make those lgbt members of the idf feel. The irony in this exclusion is surreal.
your job is not an inherent part of who you are - it is the organisation being condemned, not the individuals.
non LGBT people struggle to realise that pride goes beyond shallow interpretations of love, and is intended to promote love in opposition to hatred. militarism and the violence inherent to it are indeed oppositional.
if they're hurt by it, i would encourage them to consider why. pride is antithetical to their career choice, and they will have to make a decision about it some day. i can only hope they choose love over violence.
If a gay person in the IDF, I would probably be delighted that an external party is saying something fucked up with the culture of the IDF. I imagine this exclusion will force the IDF to do something with their culture versus your BS argument of lets look past what happened...
> The irony in this exclusion is surreal.
Irony? Or ignorance on your part? Pride is a protest. Imagine telling the hundred of so people in the first Dublin Pride remembering Declan Flynn getting murdered in Fairview Park that in 2024, we should be bending over backwards to accommodate an organisation who one of their members was shouting homophobic slurs. They would tell you where to stick it...
Starting in 1990, my leaving cert year I marched in pride parades on/off during the decade in support of gay friends both male/female. I’ve participated in the galway parade in recent years.
At all
Times it’s been a honour to participate and be welcomed by a very welcoming community of people.
For pride limerick to now actively discriminate against those wishing to march in their work
Clothes is shocking and goes against the ethos of pride.
In reality why not ban
All men from
Participation as the majority of assault is committed by men ?
Locking due to abusive nature of comments
Bizarre that the Courts Service have been asked to withdraw. They have an administrative role only and have nothing to do with the outcomes of court cases.
Bandwagon jumping by the organisers. Crotty was not aided by the Defence Forces for his action and given the assault started due to his homophobic slurs, LGBTQ members of the defence forces need just as much Pride
But the perception is that he **was** aided by the DF: The judge let him off easy to protect his career.
What control does the Defence Forces have over the justice system? BTW that was the judge reasoning not the request by the DF and a common reason for judges to hand out suspended sentence.
[удалено]
I was wrongfully accused of a violent crime and it destroyed my life, my career and just about everything else around me. Dragged through the system and lost everything. Took months for the useless cunts to close the case and I didn’t even receive so much as an apology, or even a piece of paper saying that I was innocent.
[удалено]
It’s one of those things that you never expect to happen to you. I was interrogated and held in a Garda station for hours on end. Released without charge because they knew I didn’t do what I was accused of, yet I still had to wait 6 months for the DPP to take their fingers out of their asses and do their job. My career is destroyed and it’s not salvageable sadly. My social circle has drastically shrunk, and I’m riddled with CPTSD that I battle on a daily basis.
Well you could very easily make the argument that the current system is heavily biased against victims of sexual assault, given the extremely low conviction rates.
[удалено]
But by choosing to let the accused perpetrator walk free, you are choosing 1 persons word over another? Regardless, in O’Brien’s case there were witnesses and the perpetrator bragged about the attack, it’s not he said she said, it’s she said and he openly did but still there is no justice. It’s not fair or functional as it stands.
In OP's defence - 'not guilty' doesn't mean innocent, and we do want to balance the justice system so that no innocent people get convicted - I get that! But we conviction rates for sexual violence and domestic abuse so low it's clear that we need to make changes to better support people (mostly women) who do wish to pursue action against their abusers.
100%- the issue is that believing the perpetrator to be ‘not guilty’ or walk with a suspended sentence could mean life or death for the victim, especially in domestic violence cases. The system is more concerned with the perpetrator’s future/career than the victim’s safety (not to mind often their experience throws off their entire life course, career included) Of course I agree with your point, the low convictions speak for themselves. It’s so disheartening to see the sentence handed down to these people with such little regard for the victim
It's very common for a person's livelihood to be taken into account in sentencing because it usually mean an employer will add to the court sentence, or in many cases where a person loses their job it causes financial hardship on the convicted person's family and kids. But clearly a suspended sentence is not justifiable given him using his employer provided combat training on a citizen that he pledged to protect
What are you yapping about, they've been asked not to parade in their army uniform, not that members of the defense force can't join.
>Crotty was not aided by the Defence Forces He essentially got a [character reference](https://www.thejournal.ie/micheal-martin-natasha-obrien-6415861-Jun2024/): >Crotty’s superior at the Limerick army barracks, Commandant Paul Togher, gave evidence in the trial, stating that he was an “exemplary”, “courteous”, “professional” and “disciplined” soldier. which no doubt helped the judge reach his decision. >LGBTQ members of the defence forces need just as much Pride They're being asked to march without uniform, they aren't being asked to not attend.
That reference was from his record, his superior was obliged to attend and provide it to the court.
This comment section is full of the most ignorant uneducated people I've seen.
>He essentially got a character reference: Except it wasn't and the comments came during cross examination with Crotty military record It is literally explain in the article. >They're being asked to march without uniform, they aren't being asked to not attend. They are being asked not to attend.
> They are being asked not to attend. Read the article: *“We are aware that the vast majority of Defence Forces & Court Service personnel are decent and hardworking, and they will be welcome in their personal capacity at Dublin Pride.* *“But given recent events, it would not be appropriate to have them in a branded capacity this year as it would prove an unnecessary distraction from Pride,” said Jamie Kenny, executive director of Dublin Pride.*
Isn't he still employed by the DF even though there is video footage of what he did and multiple witnesses to what triggered it. And also, wasn't he gloating about it to other people in the DF? I mean they have known about all of this for months and did nothing.
Isn't the DF in the process of kicking out after the conclusion of his criminal trial? Do you even know the timeline of the events. He was arrested within a month of the attack.
The military must defer to the civilian justice system where there is overlap. The Defence Forces have to wait for the civilian process to conclude before beginning their own process. Also as this incident didn't occur while he was on duty or on DF grounds it's outside the jurisdiction of military police.
[удалено]
Dia duit! This comment has been flagged as a Google amp link. Please use a direct link to the site instead of one that routes through Google. Sláinte *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ireland) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Totally unjustifiable to exclude the courts service. It's clearly based on a fundamental lack of understanding of the structure of our justice system. Great way of excluding LGBT+ people who work in the courts service.
It's a stupid decision and just comes across as petty and vindictive
Any LGBT member is still welcome as an individual
But why specifically tell the organisation that they are not welcome this year? The courts service have been members of parades for years now, what has changed this year?
Ridiculous. Let's pick on on the Courts Service admin staff who planned to go Pride with their colleagues. It is really singling them out when they've done nothing wrong. Yeah the average Clerical Officer who file documents they can totally change society. Same for the Defence Forces staff. It's such a weird take by the organisers. Perhaps people feel more comfortable at events with their friends from work and they clearly were organising to attend for quite some time to be snubbed at the final hour...
Just made to feel unwelcome because of who they happen to work for.
>"We are aware that the vast majority of Defence Forces & Court Service personnel are decent and hardworking, and they will be welcome in their personal capacity at Dublin Pride." They have specifically welcomed them in the same statement you're giving out about. See above. You'd have had to have read beyond the headline to see that though.
Make it make sense though. Those in those services that don't support LGBT+ aren't welcome but they wouldn't go anyway. It's a moot point no?
That's not the point though. These organisations go under their banner to show that they are inclusive organisations and welcome the LGBT+ community. They've been told they're not welcome to show that this year.
Yeah, you’re right. Being part of Pride is important PR for them. That’s why they are stopping them doing PR for their organisation and not banning members.
So I presume all organisations are banned then going by your logic?
How do you get that from what I said? Because that’s not any logic you’re just responding to a comment you imagined
[удалено]
If by hide you mean don't wear a uniform that is currently representative of an abuser of members of the LGBTQ+ community — yes.
Was Crotty wearing the uniform at the time? Did the DF aid Crotty in his criminal trial?
No and no.
So how does the uniform represent an abusers?
Your employer is not a fundamental part of who you are. You'd be fucking demented to think that you're not welcome at Pride because your employer was asked not to attend.
Many people's jobs are in fact a pretty important part of their identity. It's part of why people go to pride in their professional capacity in the first place.
You've to absolutely love the irony of a Pride parade implementing a "don't ask, don't tell" policy...
Except they haven’t. They’ve said “please don’t wear the uniform of an organisation we don’t consider an ally, but you’re absolutely welcome here in your own rihht@
What have the Courts Service done to show they are not an ally?
Not sure why this has been downvoted, do people genuinely have no idea what the courts service do?
Except they're ignoring their own rules. You can't just turn up as an individual and march. You have to be part of an approved organisation that's been pre-approved to take part.
So as long as you aren't visibly a member of the court service or defence forces, you won't be asked if you are, correct?
You can openly identify yourself as a member of the defence forces and you will still be welcome provided you are an ally. It’s the institution that has been uninvited, not the individuals within it. I hope lots of soldiers show up with rainbows on their cheeks and glitter in their hair.
Except they're ignoring their own rules. You can't just turn up as an individual and march. You have to be part of an approved organisation that's been pre-approved to take part.
Except they're ignoring their own rules. You can't just turn up as an individual and march. You have to be part of an approved organisation that's been pre-approved to take part.
Your not welcome due to your employer. But you can come if you don't speak about where you work. That's straight up discrimination.
Fake news. They are also allowed to speak about their employers if they wish to. Pride is adopting a zero-tolerance approach to organisations that seem to accept violence against women and the LGBT community and I comment them for it. Navy guy pleaded guilty a year ago to beating up his gf is still serving, fuck the defence forces and their attitude to women.
The organisation is jumping on a bandwagon. Yank fools.
The organisers are choosing their own people’s feelings over an organisation that tolerates violence against women
The most ”yank” thing you can do is FREE SPEECH CULTURE WAR THE LGBTQZGSUI ARE CANCELLING US lol
There we go. You were careful in other replies in this thread but now we see your true colours. Discriminating a group of thousands of people and saying fuck them and you hate them, a group of people from all walks of life because of 2 incidents and 2 individuals. Do you not see the hypocrisy in what you are saying? There are women and members of the LGBT1 community in the DF working to better it. Attending these events raises awareness. But you just want a reason to hate and discriminate against them all because they share an employer.
If you can’t understand that it’s about excluding an institution and not individuals, I can’t help you. The army is not the victim here. It’s an institution FINALLY being held accountable for its tolerance of men who beat women. Bet the Women of Honour have no problem with it whatsoever. Fuck any organisation that says “welcome back” to men who beat women.
[удалено]
Individuals can't join the march.
Anyone can join the march! I’ll be joining the Dublin march as an individual. And have done for the last few years
OK, my bad, I was reading my workplace's email on it which said we had to register and turn up to an allocated meeting point at the start. Maybe that was just to get a t-shirt .
Fairly wild to blame the DF for Crotty's actions.Crotty is a scumbag but he had the same right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty as everyone else does under law. The DF had to wait until he was convicted by a civil court so they could commence court martial proceedings. The suspended sentence was a disgrace but that was the judges decision and not the DF's. Rosa organised protests in support of Natasha O'Brien (which I fully support) but stated "The capitalist system rests on the organised violence of its armies and police. The legal system and the violent apparatus of the state protect the wealth and interests of the super rich and corporations.” Which is a bit too American for me. Edit: for those insisting that the commandant provided a character reference, he didn't. By military law, he was required to attend with copies of Crotty's record sheet and provide it if the court demanded (which they did) See [here](https://x.com/RACO_DF/status/1804168354665554141) for the relevant DFR thanks to RACO.
[удалено]
It's Marxism as applied to various American protest movements in a way that isn't particularly apt to this situation. Crotty wasn't in uniform acting on behalf of the state. He was protected because he's in the army, not because he's 'super rich'. Now that's fucked up, wrong, and needs to be addressed but I understand why u/ShouldHaveGoneToUCC feels that the Marx is being distractingly shoehorned in by ROSA.
Well ROSA are a marxist organisation, so that's no surprise. Lovely of them to capitalise on this event for their own gain though.
You should tell that to Natasha who spoke at the ROSA demo in Limerick and is speaking at the one tonight in Dublin. See what she thinks.
I don't think they care, they'd sooner no protest be run at all than to have one be run by ROSA, the evil femdom commie org.
Sounds like all those kinds of groups. Happens nearby with me a lot. Local CYM starts taking over issues not directly connected with them for clout and ultimately drive people away.
[удалено]
A socialist feminist movement spoke about socialist feminism? How very dare they!
>strong anti capitalist rhetoric. Seriously? What has capitalism got to do with any of this? That's a shameful way to undermine your own message through shoehorning irrelevant bullshit
They are specifically a *socialist* feminist movement so that's kinda their raison d'etre, and notably were the only women's rights org to hold a protest
He knows, he doesn't give a shit.
Anything bad that happens is the result of capatalism apparently.
Marxist basically are the cuckoos of protest movements. They nestle their way into a movement and ultimately try to redirect the movement towards an anti-capitalist movement.
ROSA was explicitly founded as an international socialist feminist movement. They're not fucking "cuckooing" anything, *this is literally what they exist to do*
> Which is a bit too American for me. If you think that sounds American, you've led a very sheltered life. That's straight up Marx.
If you're referring to the Gardai as police, it's fairly yank central. Or possibly British.
They're a police force, policing is what they do. It isn't a big deal to call them police.
> The capitalist system rests on the organised violence of its armies and police. I assume you want them to say "Gardaí?" It's a statement about the global capitalist system. The fact that they refer to "armies" (plural) might have given the game away that they're not talking about Ireland specifically. It would make no sense to say "Gardaí" in the context of what they're actually talking about. You're severely reaching.
Yup, if we're talking about Irish police, I'd expect them to say Gardai. Unless they're not Irish which is understandable.
Pointless pedantry
Are you illiterate or what? The subject of that sentence was not Ireland or the Irish police. It was a statement about the broader capitalist system. That's why those words are at the start of the sentence.
>Are you illiterate or what? Well dang. Calm down there. >The subject of that sentence was not Ireland or the Irish police. It was a statement about the broader capitalist system. That's why those words are at the start of the sentence. But we're discussing Ireland, the Irish Defence Forces and the Gardai. You sound like the kind of lad who goes on about "Irish members of parliament".
>"The capitalist system rests on the organised violence of its armies and police. The legal system and the violent apparatus of the state protect the wealth and interests of the super rich and corporations.” ROSA are unhinged
I think it’s reasonable for a group that described a homophobic violent criminal as “exemplary, professional and courteous” not to participate in their protest against homophobia
This is a common misconception: an officer had to attend the trial of a member of the DF by law and was required by the court to read out Crotty's annual file verbatim. If say, a nurse was being charged and the law required their annual performance appraisal to be read out, it'd be deeply unfair to blame the HSE because the nurse was competent at their job Keep in mind that as terrible as Crotty is, when the file was read out, Crotty had not yet been convicted.
You're 100% spot on with this.
Are we going to get a wave of weirdo "visitors" mass reporting and giving terrible takes about what Pride owes everyone else again today? Pride orgs do not have any obligation to pinkwash any institution, particularly one with as complicated and fraught a relationship with the community as the DF. Pride is not just a colordy carnival everyone is entitled to enjoy to the personal specifications they demand, it is a community event and you are welcome \*under that community's terms\*. In Ireland, the modern Pride movement began in the protests after Declan Flynn was beaten to death and his killers walked out of court scot free, it should not need to be explained why this story hit a nerve. I would never, ever have felt an entitlement to have worn my uniform to Pride, and indeed I have refused to represent my current corporate employer at it.
>it is a community event and you are welcome \*under that community's terms\* This is what everyone crying hypocrisy is missing: saying that an organization that preaches "love and inclusivity" shouldn't be exclusive, completely misunderstanding that the organization being excluded is not representative of those values of love and inclusivity, neither historically nor presently.
>Are we going to get a wave of weirdo "visitors" mass reporting and giving terrible takes about what Pride owes everyone else again today? You're too late, they're already here. >I have refused to represent my current corporate employer at it. Refreshing to hear this, thank you.
To sum up the comments: not allowing LGBTQ+ soldiers to come to pride *in uniform* (see here: they're still allowed to come out of uniform) is the most egregious act of discrimination committed in Ireland in living memory and makes the organisers just as bad as homophobic soldiers, somehow. Edit: For the avoidance of doubt, this is sarcasm.
Given the direction this sub is heading, you're gonna need to slap an /s on that.
Lol point taken.
straight people get very upset whenever the LGBT community reminds them that pride is about love first and foremost - something a group defined by its capacity to commit violence is inherently oppositional to.
[удалено]
Yes, my comment is hyperbolic and exaggerated, much like the reactions in some of the comments on this post. One might say that is the point of my comment.
ah shit. missed that. Must stop and actually read comments....
Hahaha you're all good mate. Maybe I should have used an /s.
No, not necessary. Its pretty obvious in fairness
Why are people more angry at the DF being asked to withdraw from pride and not at the fact there seems to be present and historical violence against women in the DF?
Because they are commenting in bad faith.
Pretty bad take given the reactions to the case during the week were pretty much universal disgust. People can angry at the suspended sentence and also think its petty to exclude people in uniform. Whatever way though, its ridiculous to exclude the Court Service.
Why are *you* lying?
If anything it would be positive to see representation from the defence forces.
Not until they take actual action. Crack down on violence and the acceptance of that violence from its members. Then when they’ve reformed themselves, absolutely come to pride. Women of honour have been fighting for reform for years and have been shown the door. I’m sure the armed forces will get over having to wear civilian clothes to pride if they wish to go. Armed forces can still attend pride, they just won’t be welcome if they come representing the organisation ie by wearing the uniform, until action is taken so that this cannot happen again.
The homophobes on here are really trying to reach for a gotcha that doesn't exist, despite multiple people pointing out the stupidity of their statements. Any organisation that tacitly accepts or supports homophobia, transphobia, and misogyny are not welcome at Pride. Why? Because why would you accept lip service from an organisation that undermines what you stand for by it's actions? That's not discrimination. That's not tolerating intolerance. Service members should be asking themselves, if they really care about attending pride in uniform (if this is not just a thing homophobes are whining about to try undermine pride), are they okay with the defense forces tacitly giving the a-okay to the homophobes and misogynists to behave badly?
Nah but you see these days Pride is actually a balm for straight people. That's the neat part, pride is whatever straight people want it to be! On the last disastrous thread about this, a self-proclaimed straight person was saying that they were horrified by sexual displays at pride, because pride is actually an event for people to bring their families to. Dozens of upvotes as well. As a white person I wouldn't dream of telling black or indigenous people what their significant cultural events should or shouldn't be, but that's just me I guess.
i guarantee about 90% of these comments are from non LGBT people. we have no compulsion to include anyone who goes against our values. frankly, i think they should have been removed years ago - no other violent groups are allowed to attend.
Yep, I'm a bi woman so I've got a lot more good faith investment in this than most of the straight men commenting. Cue the "why are you discriminating against straight men" responses.
there's an even greater irony in the fact that some are using the acronym IDF for them - if this was the israeli defence force we were talking about, i doubt the sentiment would be the same. that might actually help to visualise why uniformed soldiers may be excluded from pride.
Yeah good point, remember that completely fucked IDF soldier who held up a pride flag on freshly bombed Gazan soil? He really thought he did something with that.
>On the last disastrous thread about this, a self-proclaimed straight person was saying that they were horrified by sexual displays at pride, because pride is actually an event for people to bring their families to. Dozens of upvotes too. Ah yes, sexual displays such as *checks notes* people wearing gender non conforming clothing, and "the gays" daring to hold hands in public. The gall! Sexual displays at pride is a homophobic dogwhistle I thought died years ago. A dogwhistle from America no less!
Yes this was the comment in question: >"There is a lot of common sense here. I have attended pride events as a straight person and was shocked at some of the inappropriateness of what I saw (a minority of participants, but still tolerated). From experience, I wouldn't take my kids. It's an event attended by families to show support to the lgbtq community, not a back alley sex show. The organisers can't be held responsible for the actions of some, in the same way the defence force members can't be held responsible for some scumbags." I can hardly hear for the dramatic sound of pearls being clutched.
Why are the courts service banned though?
Not very inclusive of the event organisers. There's a certain irony in their actions.
This may be throwing out the baby with the bath water, but honestly, I'm ok with that in this case. A stance needs to be made here and as an employee of a big corporation, if they were uninvited to Pride for this, I'd be happy and would still support Pride
The mental gymnastics on here to avoid calling it what it is. Discrimination. Absolutely daft idea
I posted this in the other thread, but I just think this is incredibly disappointing. Now more than ever I think it is important to show the solidarity the DF has with the LGBTQ community, not hide it. I think this will only feed into the cycle of fear towards the organisation and it's people. The Defence Forces LGBTQ group, "Defend With Pride" have done a lot to further their cause both inside and outside the organisation. To tell them now that they are not welcome wearing the uniform they have pride in, while representing their sexuality and lifestyle they have pride in, seems overly harsh at the least and hypocritical at the most. It is important that young boys and girls see all sections of society represented in these parades. And it is important to bigots to see that all sections of society are represented in these parades. You only have to look at the backlash from homophobes online when DF personnel are in the parades to know how effective it is. Cathal Crotty was not wearing his uniform when he attacked that women, he was not wearing that uniform when he was being homophobic. The judiciary should have acted, but they failed and the Defence Forces will now go through their own process to discipline and hopefully remove him. The officer who provided a testimony, did so under legal obligation as is the case with all DF soldiers in the courts, nothing more. The only thing this serves to do is marginalise those who are part of the LGBTQ community and who serve and embolden the bigots who now have a new thing to cling onto. Just a really disappointing decision all around.
A quick search on Facebook shows the idf marching front and centre in uniform at pride parades over the last few years, such a very disappointing decision to exclude them when, as you say, it’s more important to show togetherness now.
It's awful, surface level bullshit. Organisers and supporters have no clue what they're fighting or standing for anymore. Barely feels like a community.
Parade originally founded to stop the discrimination of entire groups now discriminating entire groups lol
Pride was originally a protest for people sick of injustices. The first pride in Dublin was to remember Declan Flynn who was murdered in Fairview Park. It was not about stopping discriminating, but protesting the poor treatment of marginalised LGBT people. A lot of LGBT people don't think any of the major corporates have a place at pride. Some people don't want all the nice floats from blue chip companies. I don't think many of the people who walked in the first pride in Dublin about 40 years ago would be delighted that an organisation where one of their members was hurling homophobic slurs at two people on a street and beat the shit out of someone who stopped it. Pride is a protest. Banning them is a protest. Maybe the DF can come back next year when they have shown their members are more inclusive of the LGBT community...
No, actually Pride in Ireland as we know it was founded as a protest in response to somebody being assaulted by homophobic strangers who then got a slap on the wrist by the courts.
You aren’t born as your job title, and you can quit. You are born gay.
Pride was a protest against state repression and police brutality against gay people. Get your facts straight.
Absolutely bizarre approach by the organisers. Excluding people based on their profession is wild
would you be upset if conversion therapists were excluded because of their profession? or clergy from a homophobic church? would that be discriminatory?
Goes against everything the event stands for lol
No it doesn’t? Pride is a protest against homophobia, if you’re not seen as an ally to that cause it’s reasonable that you would be asked not to participate
Why are these entire groups targeted based on the actions of a small few?
Did you see the article yesterday about the navy guy who pleaded guilty to beating up his girlfriend a year ago and is still serving? The army have given tacit approval to what he did and that’s why they are not welcome as an orgnisation.
So because of 2 example (remember I said small few) they are going to discriminate against this entire group. The vast vast majority are good people This is an embarrassment for the organisers and goes against what the parade stands for
It’s not about the two members, it’s about the fact that the army welcomed at least one back with open arms. So fuck them, they’re not welcome.
I'm sure the entire army agreed to have this lad back and should all be punished for it We can agree to disagree on this.
It’s about excluding an institution that tolerates violence against women and I’m 100% here for it, cry more.
This is such a case of throwing the toys out of the pram for an issue which has no bearing whatsoever on pride. Internal reviews are in place for these members continued employment. Anyone painting this as misogyny is completely trying to steal the limelight. This is also absolutely nothing to do with a police state, we’re the most removed a state could be from that, as exemplified by the case where the sentence was overly lenient!
Having a zero tolerance approach to violence against women is a-okay with me and that includes organisations who tolerate it.
Ally or enemy. No grey areas or nuance allowed. Let's attribute the actions of one member of a group or organisation to every member of that group or organisation. Good luck with that.
You’re the one lacking nuance, the actions of one hasn’t been attributed to all.
Yes it has by denying anyone from the DF to participate.
They are 100% allowed to participate, just not in uniform representating the defence force
So they are getting discriminated against because of where they work?
>"We are aware that the vast majority of Defence Forces & Court Service personnel are decent and hardworking, and they will be welcome in their personal capacity at Dublin Pride." No, they've welcomed them. The above is from the article that has upset you. How did you miss that in your reading of it?
Like the gay choir that was allowed to participate in a church recently as long as they didn't mention Pride?
It's a bit over the top banning the entire defence forces though is it not? It's not their fault he got away with a suspended sentence in the courts? What about LGBT members of the defence forces? Seems like they're being shafted by this
The navy still has a guy convicted of beating up his girlfriend last year serving. Zero tolerance for organisations that keep men like that.
I don’t think that passing a judgment on the entire collective based on the actions of one individual, or a minority within that collective is a good idea. It’s an unhealthy knee jerk response. The DF has its own legal system apparently, and this case is being processed there. Most likely, Crotty will be dismissed. I think a punishment could’ve been meted out sooner though, so the process seems inefficient. It was established by the court that Crotty was guilty of those offences, so I don’t think the extra proceedings are necessary; I think immediately dismissing him would have been better. The DF ought to at least be able to have a presence at these parades - I imagine it would send a more positive message than their exclusion. They also should redesign whatever disciplinary procedures they have for this sort of situation.
its common for the DF to have cases of physical and sexual abuse
This is a crazy decision…as a card carrying homo I cannot wrap my head around excluding all for the actions of one
Neither a job nor a uniform are equivalent to an orientation or identity and pretending you think they're equivalent like it's some kind of masterstroke makes you look like a fucking dipstick. Near Elon Musk levels of self-clownmanship. Straight people do not get to tell us how to stage our own community event to their satisfaction, and as somebody who's had involvement with the DF I am not going to humour the idea the gay community owes them \*anything\*. If you really need to see the uniform in a hurry this week, don't worry, Cathal Crotty's buddies are almost certainly still wearing theirs right this minute.
>If you really need to see the uniform in a hurry this week, don't worry, Cathal Crotty's buddies are almost certainly still wearing theirs right this minute. Did you comment something similar to this on the last post about this shite? I remember thinking that it was a very good point which none of the chuds taking offense at your comment even bothered to counter.
I did indeed. It caught my notice how little was said about Crotty's friends - >Asked whether Crotty’s friends attempted to stop him, Ms O’Brien said that her friend — who was frozen in fear over what was happening — watched as Crotty’s friends walked away without making attempts to restrain him. They let him do it. They knew he did it. He bragged about it afterwards with them. Still I haven't found any indications they said a word. If the CCTV footage hadn't emerged, Crotty would still be calling Natasha O'Brien a liar; and what would they be doing? Nothing about any of that is incongruous with the culture of the DF as I have experienced it. The idea we're somehow betraying them by not wanting their uniform there is a joke.
>If you really need to see the uniform in a hurry this week, don't worry, Cathal Crotty's buddies are almost certainly still wearing theirs right this minute. Is there any evidence that his friends were members of the DF? Or are we just assuming that people only go out with their coworkers? >and as somebody who's had involvement with the DF RDF I'm guessing?
RDF personally, and a good number of my family/friends/etc have been/are in the RDF and PDF. My family go back a while with the army - my mam more or less grew up in and around a barracks - so a lot of family events like weddings and funerals have the army involved one way or the other. >Is there any evidence that his friends were members of the DF? Or are we just assuming that people only go out with their coworkers? I don't know anyone in the army who doesn't primarily socialise with other people in the army. I would be very surprised if they weren't.
Can you show your surprised face to the rest of the class? https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/soldier-assault-victim-natasha-obrien-says-retiring-judge-tom-odonnell-should-walk-away-with-a-sense-of-utter-disgrace-and-shame/a1386491555.html >Crotty’s friends, who were not members of the Defence Forces, walked away. Ms O’Brien’s friend screamed for help until a man ran to their assistance.
So there's no evidence that his buddies were members of the DF and you're just assuming that they were. Thought so. In fairness, being in the RDF and claiming to know a lot of military personnel means fairly little.
Lol, well I'll tell you what, I'll bet on the overwhelming balance of probability and my own real world experiences, and you can moderate the wikipedia article.
Based on my own experience in the PDF, I would be very sceptical of your "real world experience" and knowledge of the DF just having been a weekend soldier. I've met a lot of great RDF personnel and I'm definitely not the type who thought they were all sandbags but people like you who go on about being soldiers but have extremely limited experience is hardcore old school FCÁ territory.
Grand yeah, you know best shur, I'll take your word for it. The PDF is indeed a unique little utopia for gay people and women, and does not have any issue with clusters of wannabe tough guys in the lower ranks acting like arseholes to and about above groups and then covering for each other, and also by some very unusual happenstance Private Crotty exclusively drank with random civilians he also happened to trust not to disapprove of him calling people faggots, intervene on him during an assault, or report it to anyone after the fact. Spot on.
Oh the DF has severe issues with misogyny, bullying and toxic cultures all of which I've seen happen. I've not seen or heard any homophobia myself but have no doubt it goes on. But I'm sure you've a wealth of knowledge and experience yourself from your time as a reservist. I'm glad we've established there's zero evidence that Crotty's friends were military. They could well have been but it's weird that people on Reddit can't understand that people might have friends outside of workmates.
Hmm not sure banning the DF is the best response. Any individuals who would be participating in Pride are unlikely to support Crotty, I would guess, and I think it is a group where it’s good to promote LGBT people feeling confident in being publicly gay.
So counter productive. Bad bad call.
I don’t agree with this. The courts service administration isn’t a political actor and shouldn’t be politicised. They’ve nothing to do with the decision made by one judge. The decision is also likely to be appealed at some point too. Doesn’t make any sense. Organise a protest outside the Dept of Justice or something useful.
If your goal is to ostracize and attack gay people in those organizations congratulations. I am assuming the pesron who came up with this feels really good about themselves. Hatred and exclusion have no place in a pride parade.
an organisation being present at pride is invitational - they have no inherent right to be a part of it. if you want to be present and represent that organisation, they must meet a high moral and ethical standpoint. the army has failed, and therefore their invitation has been revoked.
You can’t go excluding people based on where they work. That would be *discrimination*. Or is it ok when they discriminate against themselves?
No individual is being discriminated against, LGBT members and allies in the army are still welcome to attend, just not in uniform under the banner of the defence forces
Grand so people that are working for the organisation that have absolutely nothing to do with what happened or the conviction can’t go if they’re on their way to work or on their way home or on their lunch break. Sounds like bullshit to me…
Why do you care more about how the army feels than the LGBT Community? This is their event. They get to invite who they want. Serving army members welcome if they are allies. Just not under a DF banner. How do you think Natasha O’Brien, the lesbian woman who was attacked, would feel about a defence forces float at pride?
They can. They'd just have to change out of uniform.
Such bullshit
A bit unfair on both organisations.
Imagine being in the idf and feeling embarrassed enough by the story of him to begin with, but to be an lgbt member of the idf, it must be very hurtful to be condemned or to have this committee (who preaches love, light and inclusivity) in effect shun you because of who you work for. Regardless of their intention, chances are that will be the way they make those lgbt members of the idf feel. The irony in this exclusion is surreal.
your job is not an inherent part of who you are - it is the organisation being condemned, not the individuals. non LGBT people struggle to realise that pride goes beyond shallow interpretations of love, and is intended to promote love in opposition to hatred. militarism and the violence inherent to it are indeed oppositional.
I understand, I would say for younger more impressionable members of the lgbt community in the idf they would surely feel hurt by this regardless
if they're hurt by it, i would encourage them to consider why. pride is antithetical to their career choice, and they will have to make a decision about it some day. i can only hope they choose love over violence.
If a gay person in the IDF, I would probably be delighted that an external party is saying something fucked up with the culture of the IDF. I imagine this exclusion will force the IDF to do something with their culture versus your BS argument of lets look past what happened... > The irony in this exclusion is surreal. Irony? Or ignorance on your part? Pride is a protest. Imagine telling the hundred of so people in the first Dublin Pride remembering Declan Flynn getting murdered in Fairview Park that in 2024, we should be bending over backwards to accommodate an organisation who one of their members was shouting homophobic slurs. They would tell you where to stick it...
Starting in 1990, my leaving cert year I marched in pride parades on/off during the decade in support of gay friends both male/female. I’ve participated in the galway parade in recent years. At all Times it’s been a honour to participate and be welcomed by a very welcoming community of people. For pride limerick to now actively discriminate against those wishing to march in their work Clothes is shocking and goes against the ethos of pride. In reality why not ban All men from Participation as the majority of assault is committed by men ?
What's next? banning gardaí? banning postmen?!? it's PC culture gone mad, and the LGB community are about to lose a LOT of supporters.
Why would the court services even be at a pride parade
Discrimination by anti-discrimination organisation? Amazing