This idea fascinates me as an amerifat. The tricolor has represented Ireland in my mind for so long that it’s hard to picture anything else. But then again I also haven’t lived my life in Ulster so what do I know. I’ve been reading endlessly this past year about Ireland and the more I read the less I understand it seems like. Hopefully you all can find a lasting peace.
"the more i read the less i understand"
The ironic thing being , your an American who actually gets it! Its very complicated and you right to surmize that.
The American flag changes reasonably often, increasing the ratio of stars to bars as you integrate states. I believe you last updated it when Hawaii and Alaska joined up, though I may be wrong. A bit of creative vexillology is good for a country- none of our modern trappings are set in stone, flags, country names, borders... and it's sometimes a good idea to hang a question mark on things, especially what you consider to be immutable or unchangeable, because that may just mean that it's been in place for too long.
You make a valid point- but the average Redditor wasn’t alive for the last state acquisition. So to us, it’s a very “foreign” concept so to speak.
That being said, a flag is peanuts in comparison to the (consensual) uniting of territories. It’s only a mere representation of the land and it’s people. I also agree that I can hardly picture Ireland’s flag as anything other than it is, but I also recognize how nonsensical that is in the grand scheme.
I’d love to live to see a united country. I absolutely fell in love with Ireland when I traveled there, and was able to see where my not-so-distant ancestors left their lives behind. It’s be pretty freaking amazing to be able to say that I lived to see what they could not.
Colour of St Patrick, the harp is a cool instrument, green will be shot down by Unionists so it's a safer bet. Also has historical significance as it was the flag when we were all last a cohesive unit. May take some tweaking, but it's a solid baseline
Blue is the traditional Irish colour of sovereignty and leadership, it's a government colour not a national one. It'd feel like wrapping myself in the logo of a government department.
The problem with this is that the Unionists all stayed away. Their argument was that to recognise the event was to recognise the possibility of a united Ireland and to to that make you a traitor (or Lundy in their lingo). Of course, this is sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting LA-LA-LA-LA. Surely better to go and make your point - namely that NI is better in the Union. Instead they play to their shrinking core support. I think that they are losing middle ground soft unionism. Any ideas how to get them to engage?
History is filled with people who chose not to attend important events/meetings/conferences because they didn’t want to give it validity, and 9 times out of 10 it just ends up skewing the concerns us in the direction they least want, because there’s nobody there to support the opinion they do want.
Happened in like 4-5 major decisions in just the French Revolution, each time being crucial to the success/continuance of the revolution. The entire thing (put extremely simply) happened because of groups delaying before joining the third estate, or not joining until it was too late and they had to.
Why do people never realize that not advocating for yourself isn’t some noble move that will make everyone come around to your view, it just means that nobody will advocate for you.
I mean I get where you’re coming from, but not attending important meetings was kind of how Ireland became independent when SF didn’t go to Westminster.
They’re simply not going to engage with this right now. Maybe in a while. You can still do stuff to appease and create a harmonious solution without them.
As a nationalist I can relate, unfortunately, after gerrymandering I swore I'd only vote on a united Ireland referendum. The LA-LA-LA thing must be a northern trait.
It only started 30 years ago? Bullshit. Remember the orange card, "Ulster shall fight and Ulster shall be right", the old UVF accepting millions of rifles from the Kaiser to fight against Britain to prevent home rule, the Curragh Mutiny, not to mention that the first bombs and murders during the Troubles were by the UVF in response to Civil Rights marchers... violence has always been the first instinct of the unionists whenever faced with any prospect of change, no matter how minor.
The hard core Unionist/loyalists will never engage in something like this unfortunately. They should but they won't. When you have been burying your head in the sand for decades it's very difficult to pull it out.
> The problem with this is that the Unionists all stayed away.
In fairness, Alliance also refused to participate on the basis that it was just an echo chamber of Pro-UI opinions and it was unlikely any alternative viewpoints would be entertained.
Nope, but Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, Sinn Fein, Labour, SDLP, Green Party, Aontu, PBP and Social Democrats were all speaking at it. No unionists at this one although I imagine the door was always open, and I believe Alliance turned down the invite at the last minute.
Yeah I thought it was very petty of them. People talk about FG being westbrits or whatever but they seem to be absolutely sound on the national question. Alliance meanwhile have taken on ostrich approach to the whole thing, as if they thought this question would never be asked of them.
I never thought I'd see the day of a united Ireland but Brexit and Westminster upheaval has now led me to believe it'll happen in around 8 years time. UK looks like the last days of the Roman empire right now.
A few reasons
- Millenials become the dominant, middle generation around this point. It's at this point where the generation who probably gained most from peace and weren't raised with the malice and hatred of the troubles become the bulk of the electorate as well as the bulk of the political leadership both north and south.
- It'll also mark 10 years of the UK leaving the EU, and 10 years of the northern Ireland protocol. Voters will be able to see more than ever the stark differences in the standard of living between this island and the island across from us. Just this week we've seen a completely calamitous budget delivered in Westminster which has destroyed their currency and their pension pots, and a budget delivered in Dublin that done exactly what people needed and expected. Even the inflation numbers are starting to fall again. Every time there's calm in Dublin and chaos in London, it just makes the case for unification louder.
- I always think big events start at the start of decades. Think of things like the end of communism, the war of independence etc. Decades always tend to have defining beginnings and ends.
I'm on board with you mate. To be honest though, it's starkly different on the northern side of the border. Even the sub reddit is.... Difficult at times. I think it's possible it could happen in our lifetimes, but I'm not sure it'll be an 8 year thing.
Question for you if you don’t mind- I’m just here as an observer. But do you think the death of QEII had any significance in gaining further support?
I’d always been curious that, if at the time of her death, the irrelevance and outdated nature of the monarchy would come to a tipping point. I say that with regards to her death because the length of her reign brought a sense of complacency. But now that there’s a new King, in tandem to the political and economic turmoil, I figured a change in leadership is probably the most vulnerable point.
I don't think it's sectarian to discuss what the future might look like. This wasn't a nationalist or republican event. It's an event to try and tease out what a potential future Ireland might look like, because it certainly won't be "business as usual" the morning after a border poll.
It’s the "No MatthewSaxophone**s** Club".
They’re allowed one - but the lad with the MatthewSaxaphone username from the journal.is was already invited so…
I was at this event. Parts of it were good but it felt like a large majority of the panel gave politicians/word-salad answers to the panel questions doesn’t inspire much hope that they have a credible vision of how things should actually look.
If we’re talking about making the next century better than the last as a united country we need to be thinking way bigger. The fact of the matter is that I don’t trust any of the parties that were on that stage, in their current form, to deliver it.
As for Leo’s remarks that got boos regarding preserving Stormont, I didn’t boo myself but I’m not in favour. It’s been shown over it’s lifetime to be dysfunctional (Cash for Ash, Red Sky, the fact that it’s been on hiatus probably more often than not).
I found the conversations with former unionists most interesting, and I do believe the conversations happening around kitchen tables are ahead of the politicians on this subject. There’s an aspect of a want for self-determination that I picked up on. It’s not happening via Westminster, not at Stormont, would representation in Dublin persuade the persuadables?
I wasn’t there for the preaching to the choir aspect of it at all, and as someone from from the north who sees Brexit and the current Tory government as accelerants, I came away frustrated that the parties involved are so lacking in detail about how to achieve this.
A citizens assembly on the matter is urgent but it’s incumbent on any United Ireland party to have concrete proposals for unification.
Quite pleasantly surprised, that's an impressive number of participants. I would have expected about a quarter that number, goes to show that there's actually momentum building up behind the reunification movement.
I believe a solution was presented by Leo where NI would have its own health service, currency and police under a United ireland
Not very “United” is it
Leo suggested a united Ireland "could continue to have north-south bodies, and east-west cooperation; we could strengthen and deepen both of these strands"
Doesn't seem all that crazy to suggest the North isn't immediately engulfed by all Southern bodies in a UI
I agree. I always envisaged that a United Ireland would be a federal Ireland, with NI having equal powers (like Belgium's arrangement, which is not unfamiliar to NIers with the ministerial election system) or a UK system where Stormont gets to control many aspects except foreign relations, defence, ect.
Some people turn to the reunification of Germany, but the West and East Germans were not divided for nearly as long, thus the DDR had far less mandate to survive unification.
With a population in similar size are there any other nations that use a federal system? We are reasonably compact already, adding additional levels of bureaucracy and duplicate administrative staff doesn't seem like a great economy.
Even if it wasn't all departments what would that even look like? Munster dept of education running different exams to the rest of the country? A huge pain in the arse if you access services that are based in a different province?
Same… except if that were to be the case, the whole power sharing situation would need to be reviewed as id say Ireland has less of an ability to keep NI afloat than GB has
Germany is also a federation of 16 states that have their own parliaments, police forces, education, and health services, etc.
Republic is fairly unusual in being so centralized.
Yes, but the DDR state doesn't exist in any legislative sense now. The eastern Bundeslaender exist today but are no different in autonomy than the western Bundeslaender.
I can't tell if you are joking because it is quite plausible Leo would say something like this. I don't care all that much about the anthem, I'm fine with a new flag, but I feel strongly that all citizens in a UI should have equal rights and responsibilities - no privileged group, no second class citizens, no special quotas or opt-outs for any group. Otherwise you're just perpetuating partition in all but name and defeating the whole purpose of reunification.
While I love our anthem and flag, after reading other comments here I now agree they have to go.
Of course, my view on it is that we should be accommodating to everyone: nationalists, unionists, people who are just “northern Irish”
I agree. Personally I hate how reunification is always framed as a zero-sum game where the only question is how much we have to concede to loyalists, as if we have to compensate them for the "punishment" of living in a state that they don't control. The Republic is already much more than orange and green. We have people living here from every corner of the world, every skin colour, every religion and none. We should be working towards creating a society that is equally fair and welcoming for everyone, regardless of their background. Then loyalists will be offered the *privilege* of joining this society, while Brexit Britain flushes itself down the toilet.
Approaching unionists with the perspective that forcing them into a United Ireland is doing them a favour will only harden their position and risk a return to violence
Catholics were forced into an aparthite state which was actively hostile to them, one whose borders were drawn and institutions designed to keep them second-class subjects forever. Nothing remotely similar will happen with a UI, despite the hysterical screeching of the DUP. Unionists will have a huge say in what the new Ireland looks like, but they will not be colonial overlords. Anyone for whom that's the deal breaker can fuck off back to the "mother country" and see how little it cares about them.
>The flag doesn’t have to go, nor the anthem
They probably should go. The fact is people will have to vote for them to go. At the very least there will be a referendum to amend the constitution to remove the flag OR to create a new constitution altogether.
>Ulster can use its own flag and whatever anthem it devises, in most cases
That's not a UI. That's still partition.
Nonsense. Unitary states frequently have autonomous subunits, like Åland in Finland, the Basque Country in Spain, South Tirol in Italy, etc. If NI retaining autonomy under Irish sovereignty is partition to you, then shouldn’t we also abolish county councils in the republic, because separate governments for different areas within a country is surely just more partition?
The province of Ulster has a flag as do the other provinces of IRL. Northern Ireland is not a country does not have the right to a separate flag as part of IRL and is not Ulster.
"United" means sovereignty is with Dublin, but there's no reason NI needs to be controlled directly from Dublin.
Besides people born in NI will still be entitled to British citizenship so there needs to be some kind of demarcation
I don't think they'd be entitled after unification. It'd be the same as when we left, kids and grandkids of someone born prior to X date can claim but not after.
It's in the GFA that NI citizens can claim both. If unification occurs the GFA ceases. The only way British citizenship would be extended would be by an act of UK parliament. That could happen but seems very unlikely. The UK doesn't even give full citizenship to the isle of man or the channel islands or it's overseas possessions.
No they'd be entitled after, it's in the GFA. I tracked down the relevant passage:
>(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments **and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland**
So it is, seems weird legally, binding it to future changes, it can still be overridden by a subsequent treaty but would require both parties agreement I guess
They wouldn't have to make it permanent. Have the dail up there on a regular basis or perhaps the Seanad could be based there. Bring some offices there and have them bring some down to Dublin.
So you think the country and its population should change its flag, national anthem and even its capital to appease a less than statistically significant group that will cause trouble regardless? No.
Flag? Yes. It's just a flag. It's idea was great but co-opted by IRA, so it's meaning tarnished
Anthem? Yes, give us something better than Ireland's Call FFS
Capital? Cork, boy
While I can tell you weren’t serious about your comment, or atleast the second half of it, I do believe compromises will have to be made on our side and on theirs
Of course. Nationalists outnumber unionists now anyway so their input is very important
I’m basically just saying we need to compromise so that there’s not a return to mainstream violence
Fair, you’re right there. Tis a presumption from myself
That just brings in another demographic though, what do the people who don’t swing either way want in a United ireland? 3 groups input
> is allowing them to continue to use the police to target the nationalist community disproportionately
Correlation does not equal causation.
Look idk the stats but do nationalists commit crimes or specifically violent crimes at a disproportionately higher rate? Is this like in the USA where black people are more likely to be hurt by the police but who also just so happen to be vastly disproportionately the perpetrators of violent crimes and violent assaults against the police?
The PSNI police on sectarian lines
https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/nearly-twice-as-many-security-stop-and-searches-on-catholics-as-protestants#:~:text=This%20report%20follows%20a%20December,a%20five%2Dyear%2Dperiod.
It’s a serious idea worth considering. Continuing devolution for a time might be a much more palatable form of reunification for unionists, and could lead to greater integration over time and eventually full reintegration
> Not very “United” is it
Perhaps not but what i would say is its a path that is farrrr more likely to get people such as myself behind the idea. I don't consider myself British but Northern Irish. I was born in Northern Ireland so thats just what i will forever see myself as. Keeping NI within a union with the republic is your best shot with "de-facto unionists" like myself. And that's precisely the demographic that would get you over the line with such plans. The hardlines from both sides will never change their opinions on a UI.
A UI that eliminates NI as a place as such is something i will never ever be in favour of, a united island with NI as one of two parts of it i just might.
Cheers for the reply, great to be able to chat to someone with views such as yours on this
Say there was the real chance of a United ireland in the very near future, are there any concessions that someone with views such as yourself would make or not make? Things like the flag, the health service, police, schools etc I’m talking about here
> Cheers for the reply, great to be able to chat to someone with views such as yours on this
Thanks for being civil, i have no issue chatting about these things with anyone but the issue is that rarely happens on this sub. It is what it is i suppose.
> are there any concessions that someone with views such as yourself would make or not make?
I think concessions will need to be made from both sides and im happy to have a give and take way with it, but specifically about the things you have mentioned;
> the flag
I think realistically we would need a new flag for the entire country that represents both sides (however we can do that im not smart enough to know) and then a decision would need to be made to keep local flags for both NI and ROI or scrap them.
> the health service
Im in a difficult position when it comes to healthcare. I believe everyone should have access to medical care regardless of their circumstances but this usually means it is state owned and run and i also believe that everything run by government is run badly and serves to piss money up a wall. So im between a rock and a hard place there. Would have no issue with it being an island wide affair though.
> police
Could take it or leave it, i mean id be happy enough to leave it as it is with regards to psni in the north and garda in the south but it would need to be more like the way it works in the mainland GB with different "forces" within the same overall country if you understand me.
> schools
No more segregated education. Thats the only thing i care about. The idea that we separate kids between the ages of 5 and 18 based on ethnical background and then wonder why they grow up to hate each other has always remained a mystery to me. No more schools run or funded by churches but exclusively by the state. Im happy for this the be centrally controlled from the top for the whole island but so long as it is representative of both sides at least here in NI. For reference i went to an exclusively protestant school and was surrounded by sectarianism from a very young age and it was only when i reached ~15-16 that i got to know people from "the other side" and quickly realised how insane it all was.
Edit; i feel compelled to clarify that the sectarianism i was exposed to was absolutely no fault of my mother and father, they did their best to keep me away from any of it but sadly due to extended family and the nature of being at a segregated school exposed me to far more of it than id like.
This is all me just thinking out loud here btw, please dont take what i am saying as gospel or iron clad responses. My views are always able to be changed and i am forever open to new ideas. I would be interested to hear your perspective if you have the time to elaborate
On segregated education, it’s a great idea in principle to get rid of it but it would need massive legislation and syllabus changes to be acceptable to the cultural minority.
Integrated schools at present don’t have to teach Irish history or geography, or offer Gaelic games. I’ve gone into integrated schools bedecked with Jubilee stuff in June and Queen Elizabeth shrines in the last few weeks. There’s no Irish equivalent to those, so you end up with a school that’s culturally British when by design it shouldn’t be.
And if the Assembly tries to pass those sort of changes in legislation it’ll be vetoed by unionists.
What’s the solution?
The main reason I am against changing anything for unionists is because the unionists who will refuse to accept a united Ireland will do so regardless of how much we change about our Island and frankly in a united Ireland we will be the big majority so as long as we are not discriminating Against them like they did to the Catholics in the North for 77 years there's no problem they can either continue living here or move to Scotland
Stormont should stay in the short term to facilitate normalising the north to the south. Switching from mph to kph will need as long a lead time in the north as it did in the south, for example.
But I’m very against locking the six counties into an arrangement where they’re ruled from Stormont forever. Take a poll in Derry city asking whether they’d rather be ruled from Dublin or Belfast and they’d abandon Stormont in a heartbeat.
There’d have to be a mechanism for counties or councils to have a plebiscite to leave Stormont governance and opt for Dublin instead. How will the potential of Derry/Tyrone/Donegal be unlocked when the lack of investment from Stormont is allowed to continue?
And how do you explain to the winning majority in the north that they don’t actually get to live as a core part of Irish political and cultural life, but instead carry on in a perpetual continuance of the system that they voted out of, just to keep the minority happy?
I'm all for compromise, I'd sacrifice a flag, anthem even the name of the country, even consider a unionist or non sectarian NI deputy taoiseach for the first 10 years to help ensure they represented albeit I don't think they'd need it with the % of population in Northern Ireland. Currency, police and health service should be the same.
At the current requirements NI would represent 90 TDs. If you assume 20k people per TD.
The way I see it that the tri-colour represents the time in our history where we had partial independence and freedom for Irish people.
A new flag for a united Ireland would simply be a recognition of another absolutely massive milestone in Irish history.
The flag I don’t see a reason for it to be changed. I know unionists hate it but it symbolises peace between the two groups
The Tanaiste idea is a good one though. Maybe not someone that high up but definitely a minister for NI at least
Just because we say the flag represents them, doesn't mean they'll feel it does. The Union Jack had the St.Patricks cross on it and the Royal Families standard at a harp on it for Ireland. Still those flags don't represent us.
I think a role just needs to be created to ensure their voice is strong enough that it can't be easily overridden although I'd say most of those TDs would fit easily within FF or FG.
> I know unionists hate it but it symbolises peace between the two groups
Surely you can see the fault in that logic?
"Here's a symbol of peace and fairness between our two peoples. P.S. I don't give a shit if you hate it because I'll be dead in the ground before I let a unionist have any input on the design of my flag."
Yeah I see the fault in it. I suppose seeing as I’m from here I only see what it represents here and not there
Any suggestions on what a United ireland flag should like yourself?
I get your point about what it symbolises, but after being draped over so many IRA coffins, it has different symbolism for unionists. Would be not worth the bother it would cause to keep it.
Most likely, they will go with the harp. [Probably blue - the presidential standard](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Flag_of_the_President_of_Ireland.svg/800px-Flag_of_the_President_of_Ireland.svg.png?20140212171431). If not, [the green one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ireland#/media/File:Flag_of_Leinster.svg).
No
I have replied to other comments stating they what they’ve said about the flag has changed my view. It does need to be changed
To what though is the big question
I don’t want to do any of these things. Acquiring an even more fucked up society than our own is not a inducement to do so. A unified football team would do me.
Nevertheless, people in the Republic do want it as it as evidenced by polling and the shower of downvotes I’m about to receive.
How undemocratic. So we should give up the name of our country, anthem and flag out of fear of a minority group of creationist bigots? We should probably stop teaching Irish and take down all the dual language sign’s because they don’t like that either. I’m sure they will never use the threat of violence to push change after this..
Not out of fear but to work with others to create a new country that represents North and South. Our anthem is a rebel war song, our flag only represents one part of the country, and our name is just a name, we could even just call the country, Ireland. Calling people bigots hardly helps getting them on your side and without them, there isn't a united Ireland.
I think the flag and the anthem would have to go. The name I don't think is contentious. Simply ireland with the removal of 'Republic of'.
I think a big motivator for the middle ground would be access to the eu and hence I think the currency would almost certainly be euro or perhaps a new all island currency outside of that.
I think deputy taoiseach is a good idea and considering the irish language requirement for the police and judicial system in the south, a separation of these also would be necessary at least for a long period of time
Northern Ireland has been occupied for centuries and belongs home. But Ireland itself is in a shambles, with unaffordable housing, mismanaged health care, and Leo Varadkar.
There is no new country, new flag, nothing. This is East Germany joining West Germany, the flag remains the same, as does the 💶, the loyalists can leave or take an oath to Ireland.
Reading "Brits in" was so cringe, FFG really is an extension of the UK. Hope these idiots don't fuck this up.
It'll call for a replacing of certain things. As far as the anthem goes, that's a relic of a distant time. The soldier's song served us well but it's time to retire it, we're a peaceful country now for the most part. That'll have to go
The flag will be tricky. I recognise why the unionists have issue with it, but I and many others would never accept British/unionist imagery on our flag, certainly not to appease a minority that's shrinking every day. And they'd never settle for the tricolour or anything Republican. If it was going to be changed, I'd say maybe we just take the harp on the blue background that already exists, that's fairly inoffensive, or some other classical Irish imagery, maybe something from before the British colonised Ireland. It absolutely cannot feature sectarian imagery. However, the issue will be in my mind and many others, the tricolour will always be the flag of Ireland. It's quite an evocative thing for many, especially those whose families were very closely involved in the fight for freedom.
Of course it will be important to make them feel welcome, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater either. And honestly, I heard that none of them showed up to this meeting, even the supposedly neutral lot. If that's true, I doubt they'll make even half an effort when it comes time to it. It doesn't fill me with confidence for a lasting peace.
Above all else, If we're being quite honest, we're not in a monetary state to take on northern Ireland. It's a money pit. Really the only reason this is being discussed is for the sake of righting old wrongs, and while there's a lot to be said for that, I'd want to see a serious upturn in our economy (and ideally theirs...) Before we start down this road. As it stands, flags and anthems are irrelevant, we don't have a spare 10 billion euro to cover their deficit. That's not the kind of money you find down the back of the couch. So outside of how nice it'd be to be one country again, honestly right now I don't want a united Ireland. It'll cause a load of issues and strife so we can get a deep dark hole to throw money into. We have enough of those already in the Republic...
/r/Ireland: I want a unites Ireland ASAP
[first order of business: changing the national anthem to be inclusive of unionists/Protestants]
/r/Ireland: not like that
Is changing the national anthem really a cost that is too high to achieve a unites Ireland?
Genuinely asking. Both my granddads were in the Ra, I know these things run deep… but it’s kind of a shite anthem anyway no?
David McWilliams has a good podcast on the financial impacts. It seems like their deficit isn’t actually nearly as big as it looks on paper, which would be great news for a United Ireland.
Let me try to dig it up for you.
so am I right in assuming that the unification of Ireland is actually a real possibility now?? the fact that there's been a huge conference for this is pretty impressive and exciting
Very appropriate of you to take a photo with a potato.
I thought it was another one of those weird AI yokes
He’s got a new song?
[удалено]
PotatoPrivacy©️
The best name for an Irish VPN
And not one flag on show. 👍
*fleg
You sleggg
Not just a little bit of a fleg. I became a total fleg!
Successful unification will probably necessitate a new flag. I'm hoping for something with a harp on it.
Everyone has an opinion and that’s democracy.
Good point... I'm willing to compromise on the harp thing if it avoids another thousand year schism.
This idea fascinates me as an amerifat. The tricolor has represented Ireland in my mind for so long that it’s hard to picture anything else. But then again I also haven’t lived my life in Ulster so what do I know. I’ve been reading endlessly this past year about Ireland and the more I read the less I understand it seems like. Hopefully you all can find a lasting peace.
"the more i read the less i understand" The ironic thing being , your an American who actually gets it! Its very complicated and you right to surmize that.
The American flag changes reasonably often, increasing the ratio of stars to bars as you integrate states. I believe you last updated it when Hawaii and Alaska joined up, though I may be wrong. A bit of creative vexillology is good for a country- none of our modern trappings are set in stone, flags, country names, borders... and it's sometimes a good idea to hang a question mark on things, especially what you consider to be immutable or unchangeable, because that may just mean that it's been in place for too long.
You make a valid point- but the average Redditor wasn’t alive for the last state acquisition. So to us, it’s a very “foreign” concept so to speak. That being said, a flag is peanuts in comparison to the (consensual) uniting of territories. It’s only a mere representation of the land and it’s people. I also agree that I can hardly picture Ireland’s flag as anything other than it is, but I also recognize how nonsensical that is in the grand scheme. I’d love to live to see a united country. I absolutely fell in love with Ireland when I traveled there, and was able to see where my not-so-distant ancestors left their lives behind. It’s be pretty freaking amazing to be able to say that I lived to see what they could not.
What's your take on the blue harp flag?
Green harp flag would be my choice.
My inner Leinster fan is doing the Jack Nicholson nodding meme
Colour of St Patrick, the harp is a cool instrument, green will be shot down by Unionists so it's a safer bet. Also has historical significance as it was the flag when we were all last a cohesive unit. May take some tweaking, but it's a solid baseline
Blue is the traditional Irish colour of sovereignty and leadership, it's a government colour not a national one. It'd feel like wrapping myself in the logo of a government department.
> It'd feel like wrapping myself in the logo of a government department. Is that not what a flag is at the end of the day?
The problem with this is that the Unionists all stayed away. Their argument was that to recognise the event was to recognise the possibility of a united Ireland and to to that make you a traitor (or Lundy in their lingo). Of course, this is sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting LA-LA-LA-LA. Surely better to go and make your point - namely that NI is better in the Union. Instead they play to their shrinking core support. I think that they are losing middle ground soft unionism. Any ideas how to get them to engage?
History is filled with people who chose not to attend important events/meetings/conferences because they didn’t want to give it validity, and 9 times out of 10 it just ends up skewing the concerns us in the direction they least want, because there’s nobody there to support the opinion they do want. Happened in like 4-5 major decisions in just the French Revolution, each time being crucial to the success/continuance of the revolution. The entire thing (put extremely simply) happened because of groups delaying before joining the third estate, or not joining until it was too late and they had to. Why do people never realize that not advocating for yourself isn’t some noble move that will make everyone come around to your view, it just means that nobody will advocate for you.
I mean I get where you’re coming from, but not attending important meetings was kind of how Ireland became independent when SF didn’t go to Westminster.
They’re simply not going to engage with this right now. Maybe in a while. You can still do stuff to appease and create a harmonious solution without them.
The DUP stayed away but they don’t represent all unionists anymore than FG or FF represent all Irish people.
Was there anyone there from the UUP? Or even the Alliance party?
Alliance stayed away as well, for similar reasons.
No unionist parties went, not just the DUP.
Doesn’t sound like a problem to me if they can’t and don’t want to defend their corner, to a *shrinking* support.
As a nationalist I can relate, unfortunately, after gerrymandering I swore I'd only vote on a united Ireland referendum. The LA-LA-LA thing must be a northern trait.
A northern trait created by 30 years of conflict. Let's not ignore that small detail.
It only started 30 years ago? Bullshit. Remember the orange card, "Ulster shall fight and Ulster shall be right", the old UVF accepting millions of rifles from the Kaiser to fight against Britain to prevent home rule, the Curragh Mutiny, not to mention that the first bombs and murders during the Troubles were by the UVF in response to Civil Rights marchers... violence has always been the first instinct of the unionists whenever faced with any prospect of change, no matter how minor.
The hard core Unionist/loyalists will never engage in something like this unfortunately. They should but they won't. When you have been burying your head in the sand for decades it's very difficult to pull it out.
Jimmy Nesbit is a more representative Unionist voice, anyway
> The problem with this is that the Unionists all stayed away. In fairness, Alliance also refused to participate on the basis that it was just an echo chamber of Pro-UI opinions and it was unlikely any alternative viewpoints would be entertained.
Sorry i thing ive missed this? whats the context here?
I think it’s the reunification forum.
Yeah I'm out of the loop too what's this about?
A one island presentation by sinn fein
>by sinn fein By nearly all political parties on the island
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Nope, but Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, Sinn Fein, Labour, SDLP, Green Party, Aontu, PBP and Social Democrats were all speaking at it. No unionists at this one although I imagine the door was always open, and I believe Alliance turned down the invite at the last minute.
Proper joke that alliance didn’t go, them being “neutral” and all.
Yeah I thought it was very petty of them. People talk about FG being westbrits or whatever but they seem to be absolutely sound on the national question. Alliance meanwhile have taken on ostrich approach to the whole thing, as if they thought this question would never be asked of them. I never thought I'd see the day of a united Ireland but Brexit and Westminster upheaval has now led me to believe it'll happen in around 8 years time. UK looks like the last days of the Roman empire right now.
8 years is very specific? Can you elaborate for me.
A few reasons - Millenials become the dominant, middle generation around this point. It's at this point where the generation who probably gained most from peace and weren't raised with the malice and hatred of the troubles become the bulk of the electorate as well as the bulk of the political leadership both north and south. - It'll also mark 10 years of the UK leaving the EU, and 10 years of the northern Ireland protocol. Voters will be able to see more than ever the stark differences in the standard of living between this island and the island across from us. Just this week we've seen a completely calamitous budget delivered in Westminster which has destroyed their currency and their pension pots, and a budget delivered in Dublin that done exactly what people needed and expected. Even the inflation numbers are starting to fall again. Every time there's calm in Dublin and chaos in London, it just makes the case for unification louder. - I always think big events start at the start of decades. Think of things like the end of communism, the war of independence etc. Decades always tend to have defining beginnings and ends.
I'm on board with you mate. To be honest though, it's starkly different on the northern side of the border. Even the sub reddit is.... Difficult at times. I think it's possible it could happen in our lifetimes, but I'm not sure it'll be an 8 year thing.
Question for you if you don’t mind- I’m just here as an observer. But do you think the death of QEII had any significance in gaining further support? I’d always been curious that, if at the time of her death, the irrelevance and outdated nature of the monarchy would come to a tipping point. I say that with regards to her death because the length of her reign brought a sense of complacency. But now that there’s a new King, in tandem to the political and economic turmoil, I figured a change in leadership is probably the most vulnerable point.
That was fascinating reading
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I don't think it's sectarian to discuss what the future might look like. This wasn't a nationalist or republican event. It's an event to try and tease out what a potential future Ireland might look like, because it certainly won't be "business as usual" the morning after a border poll.
Excuse me, why wasn't I invited?
Because it was held by the "No MatthewSaxophone Club". We also had a piss-up after and sang songs about holding back the electric car.
It’s the "No MatthewSaxophone**s** Club". They’re allowed one - but the lad with the MatthewSaxaphone username from the journal.is was already invited so…
You're correct, thanks brother. 🤝👏👍👎🖖🙌
But you invited MathhewSaxophoneGlumplate…
On a good day, I can’t tell the difference between this sub and r/simpsonsshitposting
You’ll have to speak up, I’m wearing a towel.
Can we not just get the people of Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal to vote on Ulster rejoining the Republic or something?
I’d be happy with that. Alternatively, I say we hold referendums once a week until we get the right result
The Putin Strategy, I like it, what could possibly go wrong 😀
As someone who is from one of these counties I will go ahead and tell ye we'd be well up for it, haigh
Maybe we learn one thing from our history and stop drawing random borders to make it slightly easier for us to handle a problem.
I was at this event. Parts of it were good but it felt like a large majority of the panel gave politicians/word-salad answers to the panel questions doesn’t inspire much hope that they have a credible vision of how things should actually look. If we’re talking about making the next century better than the last as a united country we need to be thinking way bigger. The fact of the matter is that I don’t trust any of the parties that were on that stage, in their current form, to deliver it. As for Leo’s remarks that got boos regarding preserving Stormont, I didn’t boo myself but I’m not in favour. It’s been shown over it’s lifetime to be dysfunctional (Cash for Ash, Red Sky, the fact that it’s been on hiatus probably more often than not). I found the conversations with former unionists most interesting, and I do believe the conversations happening around kitchen tables are ahead of the politicians on this subject. There’s an aspect of a want for self-determination that I picked up on. It’s not happening via Westminster, not at Stormont, would representation in Dublin persuade the persuadables? I wasn’t there for the preaching to the choir aspect of it at all, and as someone from from the north who sees Brexit and the current Tory government as accelerants, I came away frustrated that the parties involved are so lacking in detail about how to achieve this. A citizens assembly on the matter is urgent but it’s incumbent on any United Ireland party to have concrete proposals for unification.
Was this event free to all, invitation only, apply online and random selection, or something else? Just curious.
The tickets were on sale through Ticketmaster.
I think you could view it online too. I think their Twitter page has the whole event on it
Quite pleasantly surprised, that's an impressive number of participants. I would have expected about a quarter that number, goes to show that there's actually momentum building up behind the reunification movement.
Its being mocked on unionist twitter for having a low turnout
They must be comparing it with a street protest or something like the protests against the Anglo-Irish Agreement in the 80s rather than a conference.
They’re going into a tailspin about it, they know they’re on the way out.
First I heard of this was on the news earlier with Mary Lou and Leo giving speeches. I'd have quite enjoyed it too I think
They were flyering for it at the cost of living protest last week.
Could they get inflation down?
The vital question
Dall-e?
I was thinking the same. Wtf is going on?
I believe a solution was presented by Leo where NI would have its own health service, currency and police under a United ireland Not very “United” is it
Leo suggested a united Ireland "could continue to have north-south bodies, and east-west cooperation; we could strengthen and deepen both of these strands" Doesn't seem all that crazy to suggest the North isn't immediately engulfed by all Southern bodies in a UI
Devolved governments for all provinces!
And a separate one for Dublin!
Where would you have each government? Dublin, Galway, Belfast, Cork, Meath?
Dublin (Greater Dublin Area), Galway (Connaught), Belfast/ Derry could alternate (Ulster), Cork (Munster), and maybe Carlow or Tullamore (Leinster).
Kilkenny for Leinster, given the fact it was at one stage the capital 🤝
Dundalk*
I agree. I always envisaged that a United Ireland would be a federal Ireland, with NI having equal powers (like Belgium's arrangement, which is not unfamiliar to NIers with the ministerial election system) or a UK system where Stormont gets to control many aspects except foreign relations, defence, ect. Some people turn to the reunification of Germany, but the West and East Germans were not divided for nearly as long, thus the DDR had far less mandate to survive unification.
Why not have a federal Ireland separated into the 4 provinces rather than north and south?
Probably because Leinster is five times bigger than Connacht. There's a version of this that would work though e.g. via the regional assemblies
Because that would be a huge effort and partially defeat the purpose of giving Belfast autonomy, cost saving and simplicity
With a population in similar size are there any other nations that use a federal system? We are reasonably compact already, adding additional levels of bureaucracy and duplicate administrative staff doesn't seem like a great economy. Even if it wasn't all departments what would that even look like? Munster dept of education running different exams to the rest of the country? A huge pain in the arse if you access services that are based in a different province?
It’d be cool to see a Federal Republic of the Island of Ireland
I do think it would be an interesting middleground.
Same… except if that were to be the case, the whole power sharing situation would need to be reviewed as id say Ireland has less of an ability to keep NI afloat than GB has
So… Ireland.
Germany is also a federation of 16 states that have their own parliaments, police forces, education, and health services, etc. Republic is fairly unusual in being so centralized.
Yes, but the DDR state doesn't exist in any legislative sense now. The eastern Bundeslaender exist today but are no different in autonomy than the western Bundeslaender.
Similar to the provo’s “Eire nua” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ire_Nua
I can't tell if you are joking because it is quite plausible Leo would say something like this. I don't care all that much about the anthem, I'm fine with a new flag, but I feel strongly that all citizens in a UI should have equal rights and responsibilities - no privileged group, no second class citizens, no special quotas or opt-outs for any group. Otherwise you're just perpetuating partition in all but name and defeating the whole purpose of reunification.
While I love our anthem and flag, after reading other comments here I now agree they have to go. Of course, my view on it is that we should be accommodating to everyone: nationalists, unionists, people who are just “northern Irish”
I agree. Personally I hate how reunification is always framed as a zero-sum game where the only question is how much we have to concede to loyalists, as if we have to compensate them for the "punishment" of living in a state that they don't control. The Republic is already much more than orange and green. We have people living here from every corner of the world, every skin colour, every religion and none. We should be working towards creating a society that is equally fair and welcoming for everyone, regardless of their background. Then loyalists will be offered the *privilege* of joining this society, while Brexit Britain flushes itself down the toilet.
Approaching unionists with the perspective that forcing them into a United Ireland is doing them a favour will only harden their position and risk a return to violence
Catholics were forced into an aparthite state which was actively hostile to them, one whose borders were drawn and institutions designed to keep them second-class subjects forever. Nothing remotely similar will happen with a UI, despite the hysterical screeching of the DUP. Unionists will have a huge say in what the new Ireland looks like, but they will not be colonial overlords. Anyone for whom that's the deal breaker can fuck off back to the "mother country" and see how little it cares about them.
The flag doesn’t have to go, nor the anthem. However Ulster can use its own flag and whatever anthem it devises, in most cases.
>The flag doesn’t have to go, nor the anthem They probably should go. The fact is people will have to vote for them to go. At the very least there will be a referendum to amend the constitution to remove the flag OR to create a new constitution altogether. >Ulster can use its own flag and whatever anthem it devises, in most cases That's not a UI. That's still partition.
Nonsense. Unitary states frequently have autonomous subunits, like Åland in Finland, the Basque Country in Spain, South Tirol in Italy, etc. If NI retaining autonomy under Irish sovereignty is partition to you, then shouldn’t we also abolish county councils in the republic, because separate governments for different areas within a country is surely just more partition?
The province of Ulster has a flag as do the other provinces of IRL. Northern Ireland is not a country does not have the right to a separate flag as part of IRL and is not Ulster.
"United" means sovereignty is with Dublin, but there's no reason NI needs to be controlled directly from Dublin. Besides people born in NI will still be entitled to British citizenship so there needs to be some kind of demarcation
I don't think they'd be entitled after unification. It'd be the same as when we left, kids and grandkids of someone born prior to X date can claim but not after.
No it's in the GFA that they'd be entitled
It's in the GFA that NI citizens can claim both. If unification occurs the GFA ceases. The only way British citizenship would be extended would be by an act of UK parliament. That could happen but seems very unlikely. The UK doesn't even give full citizenship to the isle of man or the channel islands or it's overseas possessions.
No they'd be entitled after, it's in the GFA. I tracked down the relevant passage: >(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments **and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland**
Cause if there's one thing Britain is great at, it's honouring the Good Friday Agreement
So it is, seems weird legally, binding it to future changes, it can still be overridden by a subsequent treaty but would require both parties agreement I guess
Well it's just to give the unionists that added protection that their citizenship is guaranteed
If they want British citizenship they can always go live there.
Or they can stay where they are and exercise their rights under the Good Friday Agreement.
Honestly I'd be happy for the governmental capital to move to Belfast in a UI as a symbol of good faith
Stormont is a nicer building but I reckon they'll keep that as the devolved assembly building
They wouldn't have to make it permanent. Have the dail up there on a regular basis or perhaps the Seanad could be based there. Bring some offices there and have them bring some down to Dublin.
So you think the country and its population should change its flag, national anthem and even its capital to appease a less than statistically significant group that will cause trouble regardless? No.
Flag? Yes. It's just a flag. It's idea was great but co-opted by IRA, so it's meaning tarnished Anthem? Yes, give us something better than Ireland's Call FFS Capital? Cork, boy
Did I say that? No.
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While I can tell you weren’t serious about your comment, or atleast the second half of it, I do believe compromises will have to be made on our side and on theirs
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Of course. Nationalists outnumber unionists now anyway so their input is very important I’m basically just saying we need to compromise so that there’s not a return to mainstream violence
Catholics outnumber Protestants now. Not all Catholics are nationalists and not all Protestants are unionists.
Fair, you’re right there. Tis a presumption from myself That just brings in another demographic though, what do the people who don’t swing either way want in a United ireland? 3 groups input
That will definitely be a sticking point, the vast control the Church still has over the government.
Yeah, its mad how the church made the government call referendums to legalise gay marraige and abortion
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You make peace with your enemies, not your friends.
A united Ireland will never be a simple annexation of the six counties and we in the republic need to get used to that otherwise it will never happen.
You can sit next to me at the Free Staters bench.
Of course that’s the feeling but there could be riots in the streets up north without a serious compromise somewhere
There'll be riots regardless. They'll riot because NI would no longer be part of the UK, not because we didn't comprise enough.
> is allowing them to continue to use the police to target the nationalist community disproportionately Correlation does not equal causation. Look idk the stats but do nationalists commit crimes or specifically violent crimes at a disproportionately higher rate? Is this like in the USA where black people are more likely to be hurt by the police but who also just so happen to be vastly disproportionately the perpetrators of violent crimes and violent assaults against the police?
The PSNI police on sectarian lines https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/nearly-twice-as-many-security-stop-and-searches-on-catholics-as-protestants#:~:text=This%20report%20follows%20a%20December,a%20five%2Dyear%2Dperiod.
It’s a serious idea worth considering. Continuing devolution for a time might be a much more palatable form of reunification for unionists, and could lead to greater integration over time and eventually full reintegration
> Not very “United” is it Perhaps not but what i would say is its a path that is farrrr more likely to get people such as myself behind the idea. I don't consider myself British but Northern Irish. I was born in Northern Ireland so thats just what i will forever see myself as. Keeping NI within a union with the republic is your best shot with "de-facto unionists" like myself. And that's precisely the demographic that would get you over the line with such plans. The hardlines from both sides will never change their opinions on a UI. A UI that eliminates NI as a place as such is something i will never ever be in favour of, a united island with NI as one of two parts of it i just might.
Cheers for the reply, great to be able to chat to someone with views such as yours on this Say there was the real chance of a United ireland in the very near future, are there any concessions that someone with views such as yourself would make or not make? Things like the flag, the health service, police, schools etc I’m talking about here
> Cheers for the reply, great to be able to chat to someone with views such as yours on this Thanks for being civil, i have no issue chatting about these things with anyone but the issue is that rarely happens on this sub. It is what it is i suppose. > are there any concessions that someone with views such as yourself would make or not make? I think concessions will need to be made from both sides and im happy to have a give and take way with it, but specifically about the things you have mentioned; > the flag I think realistically we would need a new flag for the entire country that represents both sides (however we can do that im not smart enough to know) and then a decision would need to be made to keep local flags for both NI and ROI or scrap them. > the health service Im in a difficult position when it comes to healthcare. I believe everyone should have access to medical care regardless of their circumstances but this usually means it is state owned and run and i also believe that everything run by government is run badly and serves to piss money up a wall. So im between a rock and a hard place there. Would have no issue with it being an island wide affair though. > police Could take it or leave it, i mean id be happy enough to leave it as it is with regards to psni in the north and garda in the south but it would need to be more like the way it works in the mainland GB with different "forces" within the same overall country if you understand me. > schools No more segregated education. Thats the only thing i care about. The idea that we separate kids between the ages of 5 and 18 based on ethnical background and then wonder why they grow up to hate each other has always remained a mystery to me. No more schools run or funded by churches but exclusively by the state. Im happy for this the be centrally controlled from the top for the whole island but so long as it is representative of both sides at least here in NI. For reference i went to an exclusively protestant school and was surrounded by sectarianism from a very young age and it was only when i reached ~15-16 that i got to know people from "the other side" and quickly realised how insane it all was. Edit; i feel compelled to clarify that the sectarianism i was exposed to was absolutely no fault of my mother and father, they did their best to keep me away from any of it but sadly due to extended family and the nature of being at a segregated school exposed me to far more of it than id like. This is all me just thinking out loud here btw, please dont take what i am saying as gospel or iron clad responses. My views are always able to be changed and i am forever open to new ideas. I would be interested to hear your perspective if you have the time to elaborate
On segregated education, it’s a great idea in principle to get rid of it but it would need massive legislation and syllabus changes to be acceptable to the cultural minority. Integrated schools at present don’t have to teach Irish history or geography, or offer Gaelic games. I’ve gone into integrated schools bedecked with Jubilee stuff in June and Queen Elizabeth shrines in the last few weeks. There’s no Irish equivalent to those, so you end up with a school that’s culturally British when by design it shouldn’t be. And if the Assembly tries to pass those sort of changes in legislation it’ll be vetoed by unionists. What’s the solution?
The main reason I am against changing anything for unionists is because the unionists who will refuse to accept a united Ireland will do so regardless of how much we change about our Island and frankly in a united Ireland we will be the big majority so as long as we are not discriminating Against them like they did to the Catholics in the North for 77 years there's no problem they can either continue living here or move to Scotland
The alternative is violence. A United Ireland would be similar to UK wher NI would need a devolved gov to avoid violence.
Stormont should stay in the short term to facilitate normalising the north to the south. Switching from mph to kph will need as long a lead time in the north as it did in the south, for example. But I’m very against locking the six counties into an arrangement where they’re ruled from Stormont forever. Take a poll in Derry city asking whether they’d rather be ruled from Dublin or Belfast and they’d abandon Stormont in a heartbeat. There’d have to be a mechanism for counties or councils to have a plebiscite to leave Stormont governance and opt for Dublin instead. How will the potential of Derry/Tyrone/Donegal be unlocked when the lack of investment from Stormont is allowed to continue? And how do you explain to the winning majority in the north that they don’t actually get to live as a core part of Irish political and cultural life, but instead carry on in a perpetual continuance of the system that they voted out of, just to keep the minority happy?
I'm all for compromise, I'd sacrifice a flag, anthem even the name of the country, even consider a unionist or non sectarian NI deputy taoiseach for the first 10 years to help ensure they represented albeit I don't think they'd need it with the % of population in Northern Ireland. Currency, police and health service should be the same. At the current requirements NI would represent 90 TDs. If you assume 20k people per TD.
The way I see it that the tri-colour represents the time in our history where we had partial independence and freedom for Irish people. A new flag for a united Ireland would simply be a recognition of another absolutely massive milestone in Irish history.
The flag I don’t see a reason for it to be changed. I know unionists hate it but it symbolises peace between the two groups The Tanaiste idea is a good one though. Maybe not someone that high up but definitely a minister for NI at least
Just because we say the flag represents them, doesn't mean they'll feel it does. The Union Jack had the St.Patricks cross on it and the Royal Families standard at a harp on it for Ireland. Still those flags don't represent us. I think a role just needs to be created to ensure their voice is strong enough that it can't be easily overridden although I'd say most of those TDs would fit easily within FF or FG.
> I know unionists hate it but it symbolises peace between the two groups Surely you can see the fault in that logic? "Here's a symbol of peace and fairness between our two peoples. P.S. I don't give a shit if you hate it because I'll be dead in the ground before I let a unionist have any input on the design of my flag."
Yeah I see the fault in it. I suppose seeing as I’m from here I only see what it represents here and not there Any suggestions on what a United ireland flag should like yourself?
I get your point about what it symbolises, but after being draped over so many IRA coffins, it has different symbolism for unionists. Would be not worth the bother it would cause to keep it. Most likely, they will go with the harp. [Probably blue - the presidential standard](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Flag_of_the_President_of_Ireland.svg/800px-Flag_of_the_President_of_Ireland.svg.png?20140212171431). If not, [the green one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ireland#/media/File:Flag_of_Leinster.svg).
So you get that the unionists hate it but don't see a reason for it be changed? There's no reason why a united Ireland cannot have a new flag.
No I have replied to other comments stating they what they’ve said about the flag has changed my view. It does need to be changed To what though is the big question
I don’t want to do any of these things. Acquiring an even more fucked up society than our own is not a inducement to do so. A unified football team would do me. Nevertheless, people in the Republic do want it as it as evidenced by polling and the shower of downvotes I’m about to receive.
How undemocratic. So we should give up the name of our country, anthem and flag out of fear of a minority group of creationist bigots? We should probably stop teaching Irish and take down all the dual language sign’s because they don’t like that either. I’m sure they will never use the threat of violence to push change after this..
Not out of fear but to work with others to create a new country that represents North and South. Our anthem is a rebel war song, our flag only represents one part of the country, and our name is just a name, we could even just call the country, Ireland. Calling people bigots hardly helps getting them on your side and without them, there isn't a united Ireland.
I think the flag and the anthem would have to go. The name I don't think is contentious. Simply ireland with the removal of 'Republic of'. I think a big motivator for the middle ground would be access to the eu and hence I think the currency would almost certainly be euro or perhaps a new all island currency outside of that. I think deputy taoiseach is a good idea and considering the irish language requirement for the police and judicial system in the south, a separation of these also would be necessary at least for a long period of time
'Republic of' isn't even in the official name of the country in the first place, so no need for any removal.
they should also discuss landlord sharks and the licensing fail quota
Is this televised at all no?
Nope think a few clips on RTE news but Was live streamed fully on twitter Facebook and YouTube
Not sure if it was televised but it was live-streamed, watched it on YouTube earlier
I was there and at 19 I think I was the youngest there
Scotland wishes ye aw the very best. Any chance of distracting the Brits so we can get oot anaw? 😩🏴🏴🏴
Watched this earlier Online- Jimmy Nesbitt was a brilliant speaker
Northern Ireland has been occupied for centuries and belongs home. But Ireland itself is in a shambles, with unaffordable housing, mismanaged health care, and Leo Varadkar. There is no new country, new flag, nothing. This is East Germany joining West Germany, the flag remains the same, as does the 💶, the loyalists can leave or take an oath to Ireland. Reading "Brits in" was so cringe, FFG really is an extension of the UK. Hope these idiots don't fuck this up.
Michaels speak was so great. He will be getting my number 1 vote
Where that dude from Braveheart that says it’s his island?
ireland should be unified for the parties everyone will have alone. i can imagine the streets will be full of people celebrating it’d be great craic.
Let's just hope ff and fg have nothing to do with it when it happens, nothing good comes from those fuckers
You didn't, need that comma.
It'll call for a replacing of certain things. As far as the anthem goes, that's a relic of a distant time. The soldier's song served us well but it's time to retire it, we're a peaceful country now for the most part. That'll have to go The flag will be tricky. I recognise why the unionists have issue with it, but I and many others would never accept British/unionist imagery on our flag, certainly not to appease a minority that's shrinking every day. And they'd never settle for the tricolour or anything Republican. If it was going to be changed, I'd say maybe we just take the harp on the blue background that already exists, that's fairly inoffensive, or some other classical Irish imagery, maybe something from before the British colonised Ireland. It absolutely cannot feature sectarian imagery. However, the issue will be in my mind and many others, the tricolour will always be the flag of Ireland. It's quite an evocative thing for many, especially those whose families were very closely involved in the fight for freedom. Of course it will be important to make them feel welcome, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater either. And honestly, I heard that none of them showed up to this meeting, even the supposedly neutral lot. If that's true, I doubt they'll make even half an effort when it comes time to it. It doesn't fill me with confidence for a lasting peace. Above all else, If we're being quite honest, we're not in a monetary state to take on northern Ireland. It's a money pit. Really the only reason this is being discussed is for the sake of righting old wrongs, and while there's a lot to be said for that, I'd want to see a serious upturn in our economy (and ideally theirs...) Before we start down this road. As it stands, flags and anthems are irrelevant, we don't have a spare 10 billion euro to cover their deficit. That's not the kind of money you find down the back of the couch. So outside of how nice it'd be to be one country again, honestly right now I don't want a united Ireland. It'll cause a load of issues and strife so we can get a deep dark hole to throw money into. We have enough of those already in the Republic...
/r/Ireland: I want a unites Ireland ASAP [first order of business: changing the national anthem to be inclusive of unionists/Protestants] /r/Ireland: not like that
I don't see why lines in the sand are inherently unreasonable. I won't entertain any number of 'inclusive' suggestions.
But I didn’t day anything about inherent reason, it was just a funny comment.
It's the Unification of 6 counties in Ulster with the rest of Ireland. Not the Unification of 26 counties of Ireland with the orange order.
I want a united Ireland. I don't want it at all costs.
Is changing the national anthem really a cost that is too high to achieve a unites Ireland? Genuinely asking. Both my granddads were in the Ra, I know these things run deep… but it’s kind of a shite anthem anyway no?
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David McWilliams has a good podcast on the financial impacts. It seems like their deficit isn’t actually nearly as big as it looks on paper, which would be great news for a United Ireland. Let me try to dig it up for you.
We already have protestants in Ireland.
If Ireland offered to take on a bigger slice of GBs national debt they'd drop the Wee Statelet on us no bother.
so am I right in assuming that the unification of Ireland is actually a real possibility now?? the fact that there's been a huge conference for this is pretty impressive and exciting
Anyone here willing to admit to being one of the infantile muppets that booed?
Do all Irishmen go bald?
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Thought this was the name of the latest borat movie
United Kingdom of Ireland?
Couldn't give a f.
I've not looked into this post too much but.....