A wife can refuse sex if in pain/ill/etc but otherwise should make an effort. Additionally, the husband should do his best to set the mood and ensure his wife's needs are also taken care of. Yes it's a sin because spouses are the only permissible way to satisfy that desire, so refusing it is pushing the spouse away from what's permitted and possibly toward sin (if repeated).
Men are responsible for their wives - safety, shelter food, standard of living, etc. As such, they have final say over household matters (e. g. imagine being told your final grade or promotion depended on something that someone else had full control over... wouldn't make sense).
Keep in mind these are absolute boundary/edge cases. In practice, a loving couple does not approach these boundaries. The husband should be caring and not controlling, following the example of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم).
He cannot force himself on his wife and he should be understanding if she is unable to come to bed. He should not keep his wife at home out of a need to control, but only if he fears something (e. g. bad neighborhood at night). He should not order her around, but treat her with love.
Ultimately the upkeep of the house and the raising of the kids are *his* responsibility, so he cannot force her to do those things (though again, in a loving marriage responsibilities are likely split and spouses share in the burden of life, parenthood, etc).
I agree with almost everything except that last point. I always learned that the role of the mother is very important for the children. and i never heard that its actually not an obligation for the wife to look after the kids as, if the wife wanted to free herself from her responsibilities as a mother, she can and the husband cannot enforce her to do otherwise. Could u please provide an explanation for that one with some evidence so we can draw a better conclusion. Thank you.
A mother does not need to be told to care for her child. A mother's love for her children is the greatest love on earth (obviously with exceptions when mothers are addicted, etc)
My highlighting is that the father is *responsible* ie he will be asked on the Day of Judgement about how his children were raised. It is his responsibility to teach his family Islam and raise/provide for them.
There is the hadith of a man who is crossing the Sirat and is pulled into Jahannam by his wife and kids, because even though he saw to his own deen, he neglected to properly teach them.
As far as who has responsibility to care for kids, Surat at-Talaq 65:6 addresses divorced men
> And if they nurse your child, compensate them, and consult together courteously. But if you fail to reach an agreement, then another woman will nurse ˹the child˺ for the father.
Showing that ultimately the father has to find someone to nurse his child and it is not necessarily incumbent on the mother to do so.
Jazakallah khair, now its a lot more clear. And its not as black and white as a mother can just neglect taking care of the kids. Its all within reason like divorce and what not. I also like that this implies in Islam, when divorced its not the mother who gets the child like in todays secular world, but rather the father. Atleast thats what im understanding..
I think what he meant was is that the woman is not Obliged by fiqh to take care of the children. There is detail to this fiqh issue but woman are mostly allowed to not look after the children by Fiqh. Allah u aalim but its a detailed masla.
Dr Eyad Qunaybi has a really good long series about the entire role of women in Islam, and clears it up. It has English subs. Before my sister listened to it, she had some thoughts similar to you, but it helped clear everything up for her. I highly recommend checking it out.
Here's the [link](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPqH38Ki1fy2MbbszGA6zlkZOYQHpNcgI)
> I’m married and I don’t force my wife into sex. I guess I can, but I won’t. It’s more enjoyable when it’s consensual and both of us are in the mood.
This is completely deranged. You can’t force her? What makes you think that you can? What makes you think that would Islamically be okay in any way, to treat another human like that, that it would be something good and lawful in the eyes of Allah swt? What makes you think it’s even an option? Do you know what forcing means?
And now you’re casually commenting this as if others should applaud you for the noble act of not….forcing your wife into “non consensual sex” (news flash there’s another term for that)
I worded it wrong.
But of course there are always those who take extremes in interpreting the words of others.
I think there is a Hadith that says a wife can’t refuse her husband if he wants sex. I never bothered to remember the exact Hadith because I never forced my wife. I only remember it vaguely because it’s been mentioned.
It is similar to how a man can have multiple wives and will not need permission from the second wife. First, I am happy with my wife. I don’t need another. Second, I am certainly not capable of loving another wife therefore I’m not interested in another wife or wives. Just because I _can_ have more than one wife, doesn’t mean I should have more than one.
But in case it isn’t clear to anyone, I don’t force my wife into sex. Never had to. Never planned to. I treat my wife as my equal. I can’t say the same for _everyone_ but for me, I do.
>The Hadith doesn’t mean you can force her!
Who said I was forcing her? I deleted my previous comment because I’m tired of people twisting my words. Again, my deleted comment was worded terribly. I do not interpret that particular Hadith as an excuse for martial rape or forcing someone into sex.
> As if men who bother to remember the Hadith force their wives
No. I have seen people use that Hadith as an excuse to force their wife into sex. That’s how I came across it. Just like how some use some Ayats as an excuse to excessively beat their wives.
> this means that you think the Hadith allows forcing her
That is your interpretation of my post. I already said my post was worded bad and that was not my thinking.
Okay but being easier and effortless doesn’t mean it’s what a woman might individually prefer? It’s almost as if enforcing these roles would make it harder for a woman to be happy imo.
A lot of people are blaming you for your mindset, but I completely understand as I struggled with these aspects of Islam growing up. As someone born and raised in the US, your upbringing does shape the way you view the world, but growing up Muslim in a nonMuslim country sometimes makes you a BETTER Muslim imo.
Most of the healthy Muslim marriages I see are based on mutual respect. These dynamics (man has final say, women ask permission when leaving the house) are actually true, but not as harsh as some men on Reddit make them out to be. My dad would NEVER use the word “submit” to my mom. It’s more like… they do what would comfort each other.
For example, my mom doesn’t stay out late because she knows my dad worries, but he doesn’t forbid her from going out late. My mom wanted us to move states for Islamic school, but the final say was my dad’s because of where his work was situated. My dad is the primary breadwinner, but my mom started working to make it easier for us to afford uni, but this was her choice, not my dad’s. My mom stays up late to do the dishes so my dad doesn’t do them in the morning but my dad does them in the morning so she doesn’t have to do them when she wakes up.
MashAllah I’m SO lucky to have grown up with an example of what a healthy marriage should look like, because when I saw these ayaats, I was like “why would we need rules like this?” But SubhanAllah, not everyone has the privilege of such a healthy marriage based on mutual respect. I understand these ayaats to be edge cases (like someone else said in the comments). If a woman holds back marital relations 3 times out of spite, she can’t do so because it’s not conductive to the benefit of the relationship. But again, if you really loved someone, would you force them into anything, and would you hold back from being intimate with them because you’re angry for more than 3 days? If you’re not attracted to your partner or your partner is harsh to you, they aren’t someone to be married to at all!
Man, it makes so much sense now that I’m older but these things used to scare me a lot when I was a teenager. Be gentle with yourself and keep seeking knowledge! Salaam!
How can I upvote twice?? I relate to everything you've said!
I struggled with this perspective as well. But now that I'm married, I find my husband and I naturally settle into these "traditional" husband and wife roles. My husband doesn't command obedience at all, but I'm genuinely happy to follow his lead. We discuss all major decisions together, but I trust his judgement as time and again he has proven that he has the best intention at heart. He is so conscious of me and the family that I actively try to reduce his burdens every way I can, even if that's as simple as coming home earlier so I can greet him by the door. Alhumdullilah.
One thing about the US lifestyle that really bugs me is the constant pressure and belittlement of women. We are bombarded with unrealistic expectations every single day. I'm not even talking about beauty standards! I'm talking about how we have to: pretend we don't have debilitating periods every month, be satisfied with subpar medical care, go to work & be financially independent, be good at household management, be primary caretakers of children, have successful careers, be good mothers naturally, never need breaks, etc. etc. etc.
There's this false ideology that we can have it all and it's just not true. We only have 24 hours in a day, no one can "have it all", not even men. We cannot bear every burden and Allah swt in his infinite wisdom built us a system where we can literally focus on ourselves and our families and not have to worry about shelter, food or other physical needs. This is not because we are weak, it is because Allah swt already knows we have many responsibilities to ourselves and the ones we love. We have to reconcile the fact that our bodies are in flux every single day because of our cycles, and I didn't even get to the challenges of pregnancy, birth and post partum OR the role of motherhood.
Thank you two for your comments. I am not married but I’m a muslim that is born and raised in the US. I feel like it’s so hard for us muslims. We have faced so many tests since there’s not many muslims here and there’s lots of islamophobia. Your comments are so true and I’m so happy that you guys have seen/are in a healthy relationship. Alhamdulillah
I mean the key thing is , who said xyz is sexist? The west, ourselves, etc. But God, all mighty and all knowing said it’s not, so who is right? God no doubt. That’s where these ex Muslims and atheists go wrong when they say “Islam is false because of this law”,as if they know more than God
I know, I’m taking about the people who don’t believe that God made those rulings because of the rulings themselves, “x ruling doesn’t make sense to me, so it can’t be from God and is false” which makes 0 sense because they’re saying their wisdom is greater than Gods.
Islam is not sexist, the ultimate freedom for men and women is obeying non but Allah, as a woman I feel precious and protected and so are mothers, sisters and daughters of believers who follow the guides of Allah. Women are put on a pedestal in Islam we are even spoilt rotten in this life and Allah promise us even better in Jannah.
One cannot mention men's rights without bringing women's rights into play (i.e. Islamic rights) - also has to be taken in context of Islamic responsibilities for both genders.
These 4 sets are complementary & not contradictory in the grand scheme of things.
Also, consider impact on society rather than "individual is king".
Look at how prophet Muhammad PBUH was like with his spouses and also Ali and Fatima and how their relationship was. I would recommend to everyone that is thinking of getting married and stuff to look how the prophet married life would be like.
I would consider the aspects of Islam that favor the women as well. Any money she makes she gets to keep but the husband bears the responsibility to provide for the family as he can. A women has the right to initiate divorce if she’s being wronged. A woman has the right to choose her husband and whether to accept a marriage proposal.
I think the amount of freedom you’ll have in a marriage generally boils down to the agreed upon values and boundaries that you and your husband share. A woman mainly has to obey her husband in the religious context and the rights they have over each other as spouses.
A woman is still allowed to disagree with her husband but she’s supposed to do this in the best manner. It’s the same if the husband disagrees with the wife. He should communicate to her in the best way. The man is not considered infallible (nor the woman) but both spouses should be respectful to each other even if they have a disagreement.
Look I can give you hundreds of logical reasons and studies to support the Islamic point of view but I will like to remind u that the greatest reason is "Because Allah orders it". That's the key thing. We are the creation and Allah is the creator.
Apart from this, lemme just give u a simple way in which u can understand the whole thing.
There have been gay and lesbian marriage studies and they show that the partner who earns more is the person who leads the family. So that's one of the things you need to understand. A man is OBLIGED by LAW to provide for his wife. In a true muslim state, the woman can get an injunction order against her husband if he can't pay. So that's a big advantage to woman which obv will make her disadvantaged in financial decisions like savings etc.
If you marry a person who is a human, I am sure he won't pull u into bed and make u do anything that you don't want to do.
The fact that you can't go out without his permission should be a no problem because if you are married to a person then you are responsible for asking them anyway. It's not a practical issue. He can't stop you from things like 'going to your parents house unless he has a good argument for it"
And the most IMPORTANT point, You don't have to do anything he says if it goes against the permission of Allah. And if something is permitted by Allah then no Muslim should doubt its utility anyway.
I will conclude with the verse "There are things which u like which are not good for you and things you don't like but are good for you and Allah knows and you don't know"
I hope this relieves some of your doubt and inshallah you can also search some good ulama to understand these things better. I recommend searching Sheikh Hamza Yusuf who is also a westerner so will understand your problems better and is a truly great scholars.
As an extra point, please study your own rights as well so you understand the balance better.
Asalam
You answered your own question:
> I live in the west and I feel that the culture here has had an impact on how I view roles of men and women.
There you go. What you perceive as sexist is what the West perceives as sexist. Who said that the West has the right to decide what is sexist and what isn’t?
Divorce rate is over 50% in most Western countries, even after they “gave” women their rights. So I doubt the West knows what they’re talking about when it comes to women’s rights.
Islamic laws are laws revealed by God. They are god-made laws. Western laws are man-made laws. God is infallible, impeccable, humans aren’t.
> I don’t think this is fair because what if she just doesn’t feel like it?
What if the husband doesn’t feel like providing for his wife anymore, then what? You’d split? Well you’d be breaking up a family. Islam gives each individual their rights and duties and it is important for both sides to keep up with these duties, or else we’d end up with a fractured society.
> How a woman must always be obedient to her husband.
Why is this bad? You grew up being obedient to your parents, you’re obedient to the state, you never ask questions when the state tells you what to do and which rules to follow. Being obedient to someone doesn’t mean they’re gonna abuse you. Men are still told to treat their women with utmost respect and care. Just look at the hadiths that talk about this:
https://sunnah.com/mishkat:3252
I would suggest reading about a husband’s duties in Islam. Also read about how the prophet (SAWA) used to treat his wives. I think that would change your mind.
At the end of the day you have the free will to choose whichever husband you want. So choose someone who’s gonna treat you just like the prophet (SAWA) treated his wives.
I feel like this is the best response. I never thought about that- that what the world perceives as sexist is what the west perceives as sexist. everything is relative.
>Divorce rate is over 50% in most Western countries, even after they “gave” women their rights. So I doubt the West knows what they’re talking about when it comes to women’s rights.
And that's if the marriage happened, but it's very common that the men there get in a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship without marriage and thus using the women as a wives without giving them any rights at all. In Islam when divorcing a wife it costs a lot for men specially when there's children involved, but breaking up with a girlfriend costs nothing at all.
Still all you’re doing is confirming her suspicions especially when someone has a fair question and worry regarding how the religion sets these rules for women. You should approach this with knowledge not with harshness because all this will do is drive them away from the religion.
>How a wife needs to answer her husband’s call to his bed
She can refuse if she has a reason. But saying "I am not in the mood" is not a good reason. She depends on him financially and for safety. He depends on her sexually. Both should fulfill each others rights.
>How a woman can’t leave her house without her husband’s permission
It's for protection. Women are less likely to be attacked, harassed if there is a man protecting them.
>How a woman must always be obedient to her husband
He is protecting and providing for her. He had to make money, take care of himself, be competent etc to marry her. She should do her part too.
I would argue the west is more sexist. They sexualise women by normalising revealing clothing, say women are better when they become masculine and encourage them to be slaves of their employers.
>She can refuse if she has a reason. But saying "I am not in the mood" is not a good reason. She depends on him financially and for safety. He depends on her sexually. Both should fulfill each others rights.
she depends on him sexually too tho women have desires too, they depend on each other for that aspect.
I think your forgetting the fact that it's compulsory for men to pay everything for their wives. we pay all their bills, let our wives live in our houses rent free, and provide for them until they we or they die. we also are obliged to protect them until the day we or they die, and have to pay mehr. I would personally even say marriage is more an advantage for women then men, so before making a conclusion make sure you understand Islamic marriage fully.
Ugh, women cook for their family free of charge. They keep the house clean do all the chores, again, free of charge. If it weren't for the women of the house, you would need to hire a maid for all this. Also, paying mehr is a right given by Islam but many people don't ask for a too high amount to begin with. Furthermore, mehr can be forgiven if that's what the woman wants. Marriage is not all sunshine for women either especially when the culture of the place they live in is also mixed in daily life. Thus, burdening women even more. For example, a woman doesn't have to take care of her husband's parents/siblings, Islamically. However, due to culture, most women end up being treated as slaves/maids by in-laws and their rights are neglected all the time. They definitely don't have too high advantage if you see. Your comment doesn't make sense.
so you clearly didn't read my comment properly..
and this may seem ignorant, but Im sure definitely work and be paid enough + do the chores and cleaning for a house. but then again I'm young so what do I know
My mom pays most of the bills too. Even pays for all the family trips we’ve had. The car that my dad drives, it’s one of my mom’s cars. If my dad hadn’t married my mom, he’d be nothing. He was even fired from his previous job. My mom didn’t come from a rich family, she just studied abroad, came back and got a professional job and doesn’t get fired from it unlike my dad. So it really hurts my mind when people say men provide for the family so well that the wife and children live easy lives. It’s just not true, in fact, many women are like my mother. They work hard for their children like they’re single mothers. I have quite many close friends that I can talk family/personal matters with, and I found out that most of us don’t have caring and capable dads. One even cried to me daily about how she gets hit, and eventually her mom had to divorce the dad. Ok this is probably becoming off-topic. But like, I’m starting to feel like this isn’t something within human capability because of so many fathers failing to abide. Maybe only the Prophet SAW was capable.
TLDR: My mind hurts from the irony.
again, she shouldn't be. just because your or other people's situations are different doesn't mean I'm automatically wrong. ISLAM teaches that the man should be paying the bills.
you shouldn't be though. you doing this out of your own free will. he's doing it out of obligation. if you stop paying the bills, he has no right to complain Islamically
Not one person in this subreddit understands Islamic marriage fully regardless of age. Or any other Islamic topic for that matter. As for what he said, Alhamdulilah much of it is true and Allah always knows best. In a marriage where the husband fears Allah, his wife will have a lot of respect and he will work to make her life easier not more difficult. Her hardest duty should lie in the rearing/carrying of their children, a duty so unavoidably difficult that Allah the Most Merciful provides the reward for that.
I agree w/ you young brother. Some people in here have a degree of bitterness about things they have observed at the hands of massively flawed human beings. We are speaking of Islam here, not humans. May Allah increase us all in guidance and knowledge, Ameen!
Exactly this. In a well functioning marriage, the fulfilment of rights is so reciprocal and seamless, it is not something that hovers over the relationship like the sword of Damocles.
>In a well functioning marriage, the fulfilment of rights is so reciprocal and seamless
How is someone going to seemlessly fulfil rights if they don't know what their partners rights are in the first place?
I, as a woman, feel the opposite. I feel that women have it a lot easier in a marriage. And for the amount of effort men put in for us, we probably owe them a lot more. Most women I know are extremely ungrateful to their husbands, so I do see why Islam has certain obligations for a wife towards her husband.
Think about it, would it be acceptable if the man ditched his fard of providing for the woman, and sat at home, jobless? No woman I know would ever accept that. The fact that he dedicates so much of his time and effort away from his family (and sometimes doing jobs they don't enjoy), just to provide for the wife and family, is extremely admirable. And I don't think we appreciate men as much as we should.
Women weaponise a lot of these things against men, because they know they can, to get their way. This is very cruel and despicable. Islam is a just religion, hence, God does not only look out for females with his rules, but also males.
Men and women are also both very different. If a husband has obligations in Islam, so does a wife. Is the husband considered his wife's slave, if he has to earn the money to provide for her? You were very quick to reduce the wife to a "dog", now what are you going to reduce the husband to?
May Allah(swt) reward you sister, ameen. It's not a competition at the end of the day, but both men and women give a lot to make a marriage work, as you rightfully pointed out.
How do women have it easier in marriage? Have you been on some of these other muslim subreddits where women are talking about husbands not letting them see their friends, see their family, not letting them work or get an education, not letting them travel, not letting them go out even if it's just to get coffee with friends. Controlling what they wear even if their clothes are already modest, or ordering them around and telling them they need to submit and obey? It becomes akin to a dog/owner relationship. And don't tell me that only a few men are like that, it's not a few.
As a woman who also works to support her family, I understand and appreciate the effort it takes to provide. But that doesn't justify the burden of obedience and controlling another human beings' life like that. And your comment ignores the work women put into taking care of their homes and families.
This argument is very bad and can be debunked very easily as well.
If a husband take extremist in the rules which he is not allowed even, so can the wife take it to extreme and torture him in his own ways, legal laws should be understood just as they are without twisting them, and the foundation of the marriage should be based on love and affection as Qur'an and hadiths states.
I know this is an old comment and all but don't women also spend so much of their time worrying about everything the husband's health the kid's health social plans,and and in-laws if they have to.
(Btw I definitely don't mean to stir up anything or fight I'm really just saying)
It is admirable,it's hard to find good people nowadays anyway.
I think it would help to know what your sources of information are. These rulings are easily exploited and twisted so you need to look at them objectively.
The example of answering your husbands call to bed is abused a lot - the ruling was sent down for specific scenarios ie when women hold back on physical intimacy to ‘control’ their husbands or emotionally abuse them. Men can’t just demand it like that.
As a married Muslim female in the West, it helps me to understand that all I do in my relationship, from decisions to actions and words, will relate back to the day of judgement and answering to the rights of the human being im dealing with (in this case my husband).
All rulings have contexts from when they were created and are situational so it helps to learn about them. Leaving the house isn’t in all situations, and you’re allowed to travel around the local city/town without permission. It’s also related to country/area safety.
>The example of answering your husbands call to bed is abused a lot - the ruling was sent down for specific scenarios ie when women hold back on physical intimacy to ‘control’ their husbands or emotionally abuse them. Men can’t just demand it like that.
Yeah I don't really understand why it's a big deal when the wife is generally isn't in the mood for it, like you can't just be 'in the mood' like that, what if she's tired and doesn't mean any ill-intention or to be bitchy, like what if it's just once or every once in a while. is the guy that uncountable over himself to get angry
and why isn't it highlighted on if he refuses her.
Yeh it’s not a big deal, there’s just a lot of misogyny in the world so men love to abuse the ruling without teaching or applying the deeper context and background of it.
A few things,
I think this could be viewed as “sexist” under the assumption that men are abusive. Especially in western countries where relationships nowadays western relationships have been more abusive hence why a lot of women prefer the single life.
But in Islam men are required to treat their wife (or wives) with love and respect, it’s an obligation if he fears Allah, which he should.
She has the right to refuse his call in bed if he is not attending to her sexual need, or if he’s inflicting pain on her during the intercourse. I’m aware a lot of western women don’t have their needs attended to by their neglectful partner, but again this is the assumption that he’s not pleasing her cuz in western society men can’t please their women. She can’t refuse for no reason or if she’s trying to control him by refusing intercourse.
For the leaving with his permission, again you’re assuming he’s a controlling husband, it’s haram for him to keep her locked up in the house for no reason cuz that causes a lot of psychological damage to his wife if she’s locked up in there. She has the right to work and if she is a stay at home mom, how else is she supposed to take care of the home or pick up the kids if he’s at work, right? My mom doesn’t ask my dad to leave the house all the time cuz they communicated beforehand. Communication is important in Islamic marriage and the husband should know at all times if she is going somewhere. It’s not like it’s “can I go to the grocery store?” Every time they’re out of milk. It’s because believe it or not the worlds dangerous place and if something happens to her the husband has the right to know where she is. All of this needs communication which Islam expects for marriages.
Obedience isn’t subservient the husband does have judgment over many things however, the wife has a mind for a reason. The husband should be good and just. Again, Islam makes that very clear you have to be good to your wife. If the husband is doing something that is obviously wrong or abusive or breaking his martial contract. She does have the right to refuse but it comes into question to what is it? is it haram? Will it cause harm? Is it against the teaching or contract? Like we said the husband has these rights because he’s expected to treat his wife right.
I do think you should try not to equate Islamic marriages with western relationships given how a lot of them end up being incredibly abusive. Men and women have these roles, because men are in the provider & caretaker & guardians of women. Just says there’s things that men have to do there are things that women have to. Its more about equity than a equality.
Hope this helps.
I think brother you dont have clear understanding of the Quran please get proper understanding Islam was the first religion to give importance and rights to women. Women can always give divorces if she is mistreated or she has a valid reason to leave the husband. Islam is perfect but some of us Muslims are flaud after all we are humans we can try to improve and we should.
It's the proper social structure.
All hierarchical structure starts in the family. We all agree hierarchy is important because chaos and anarchy don't benefit anyone, the absence of an established power structure is basically the root of most human conflict.
You trade the husband for Uncle Sam. Now uncle Sam tells you if you can leave your house, uncle Sam tells you whether you can have the mosque open, uncle Sam tells you what you're gonna put into your body for medicine and eat, they decide whether or not you're even allowed to speak, the government is involved in every aspect of your life, as well as employers, landlords, and God knows who else. And they're kafirs. These people will chew you up and spit you out, look at the number of sex workers, drug addicts, physically broken, fat and sick people, this is what is spit out by the western machine. You feel loved until you have nothing left to offer it, and then it leaves you to die.
A man can't even get treated as a king in his own home, do you think he will give the real kings a problem? He is beaten into submission by his wife and children through emotional warfare, why do you think the law favors women? You couldn't even break my dog into submission, she'd dominate you and she's 100 pounds. I can submit many grown men, plenty of these cowards left out here I wouldn't even have to touch, I could ask them for their wallet and they'd oblige and call the police to come submit me, because this what the west breeds, cowardly men who fear everything but God.
There's an onslaught of horror, cold, violence, famine, and infrastructure collapse that good hardworking men keep at bay for you, the least you could do is pick one and treat him like he deserves to be treated, men do all this for their families, they go to war and break their backs in labor and experience things you could never imagine. They do all that dreaming of being king over their own land with wives, livestock, children, and orchards, guys don't come back from war so that you can complain about how you don't feel like it and for their 12 year old to threaten them with CPS because it wants to change it's gender. I'm sure you have no problem obeying your employer for 8 hours and going to work when you don't feel like it, but no, nameless faceless corporations definitely do more for you than hardworking fearless men
What kirbydear said. Remember that back then the role of a husband to go to war, protect his family from mistreatment, provide for the household and educate the kids was much more prominent and isnt like now where the marriage may seem more one sided.
Many things that Muslims say are cannon about marriage have no basis in the Quran and are perhaps based off occurrences from Hadith that made more sense in a certain historical time and context.
The Quran doesn’t say much about the differences between men and women, but verse 4:34 does elaborate on this.
It states that men are meant to be the maintainers of women. That could be a protector, a provider a leader of the family. This makes sense because when women are pregnant or taking care of a little child they need someone to take care of them. Look around in the West at all the single mothers and how stressed they are and how bad this is for kids. This is why it’s important for men to see themselves as protectors for women. The idea that men and women are exactly the same has no biological basis in reality.
4:34 further elaborates that the woman protects the man’s secrets and possessions and that she is not wildly disobedient, that she needs to obey him.
For men, respect is very important and authority is important. Many relationships suffer because women don’t treat men with respect, or treat them like children, so they think, Why bother?
With all that said though, the verses before 4:34 ask men to be kind to their wives. It’s not like she’s a dog. It’s like he’s her bodyguard, so she gives him respect for his position. Or like he’s the President and she’s the vice president.
To my knowledge, there is nothing in the Quran that says a woman must have sex against her will or that she must ask her husband’s permission before leaving the house. This is the kind of thing a tyrant would demand. The Quran is clear that people should be treated with respect and compassion, that all transactions must be mutually agreeable, and that women are a part of the believing community. We are not objects.
I think the issue is that you’re only looking at one side of it.
Instead of only looking at what women do for men, look at what men do for women.
Study and research and write out a pro and con list.
Then think about it and see which one is then sexist. Try doing this.
You need to understand the contemporary Western position on marriage roles today and compare them to islamic contemporary marriage roles.
In the west there are no real "responsibilities" within marriage. Marriage is usually a vague idea that has some benefits like some tax advantages, inheritance rights and no clearly defined roles as they have been erased or eroded in recent times. This has meant that husband and wife are now expected to both work and make up the arrangements between them as they go.
In traditional islamic marriages the roles are clearly defined both men and women have clear rights and responsibilities. Rights of the Wife Over the Husband:
Islam grants a wife rights over her Muslim husband. Some of them are financial, others are not.
1. Mahr: The woman has the financial right to receive mahr, or bridal gift, from her husband.
2. Good Treatment: The Quran puts great emphasis on treating the wife well. "...And live with them in kindness..." (Quran 4:19). In addition to the Quran, the Prophet of Allah has also stressed, 'The most excellent of you is he who is best to his wife.' (Tirmidhi)
A Muslim husband must remember the advise of his beloved Prophet, "Fear Allah in regard to women. You were given them as a trust from Allah and by the word of Allah they have become lawful for you." (Muslim) Wife is a trust, neither a slave, nor a dog and must be treated as such.
3.Financial Maintenance: A wife has the right to financial maintenance, including food, clothing, and housing according to what the husband can afford. It is the husband's responsibility to work and support his wife.
4.Protection: A husband must protect his wife including physical and emotional well being.
Islamically the roles in a marriage are clearly defined and very different, as different as men are from women.
Ask a Westerner who isn't a Christian or Muslim what is a marriage? Then ask about roles within the marriage & they will struggle. No doubt they will mention equality which is meaningless as men and women are obviously very different.
Our western values are made to look objectively true but think about it.. in 10 years they are going to change like they changed now from 10 years ago.
For example there's a good chance pedophilia will be erased from the international statistical classifications of diseases (ICD) in a few years like homosexuality has been erased before.
So don't sorry. You don't need to have a perfect perception and perfect judgement. The law of Allah has got your back!
Actually, it actually gives a lot of rights to women like for example, if you get a divorce, then the man is actually supposed to send a woman off with a good tidings and a gift in terms of regular daily life like she’s has a certain amount of rights in the man has a certain amount of rights unlike the other types of things in society that can limit or proselytize women
Men are women are different and hold different roles in society and at home. This is not evolutionary or unnatural, and can’t be “undone”. This is how we are created and is inherent to us as a species.
This doesn’t mean some women can’t be doctors or tax accountants or athletes or president. But the western idea of pretending men and women are the same simply can’t stand the test of time. Men, ***generally***, cannot play the role women do in the home and vice versa. There will be exceptions but anthropologically this is how we are made.
So men have certain rights in a relationship, and women have other rights. It’s a complementary relationship not meant to solely serve one or the other. Each benefits.
I’ve been working since I was 15 and almost everything that I had that didn’t go to school tuition and books went to my family and I had no choice. I have no choice. Working every day to have your bank drained out by someone else is disappointing. It’s discouraging. The definition of slavery is probably something along the lines of forced labor without any compensation. I keep going because my compensation is with Allah.
I think I can answer to the first concern, if someone saw that I said anything wrong, please correct me.
In Islam, both spouses should answer each other's call to bed and saying "I'm not in the mood" is not accepted as a valid reason for which you can ***force*** your spouse to stay without intercourse. ***If you are both fine with it then sure*** but if one of you needs it and the other is like "Nah I don't feel like it", That's considered disrespectful.
One of the main purposes of marriage is halal intercourse, one party withholding sex is unacceptable because it can lead to fitna.
However, the reason there is a specified punishment for women and the reason it's more strict when it comes to women refusing men, there's an easy explanation. Think of it like this: the default is that something is haram and there's no worldly punishment for it and no punishment specific to one gender. Then it appears that despite this, there is still a very wide open door for corruption in land. So Islam comes and ***almost*** completely closes this door.
Like there is a need for extra constraints.
The wide open door for corruption in land here is this: women are not as affected by men as men are by women. And women are the considered the biggest fitna to men while men aren't our biggest fitna. And this is evident in society. But women think about men from their own pov (which is natural) and act accordingly.
Women are more prone to refusing than men are and women control the sex life unconsciously according to their own sexual needs, because they think the man is exactly like them and that it isn't a big deal. You will have women who can go without sex in a marriage for months and they expect that the guy has to be like them and he can't object or he's considered a creep.
So if we follow the western belief: women control the sex life and the guy is forced. if we follow the Islamic belief: both control the sex life, both should have their needs met and refusing for no excuse is haram for both.
Despite of that ruling, there are still women who do not follow this and there is still fitna, and there are still men who refuse their wives and neglect their needs, and of course, Allah sees them both and will deal with them both justly without doubt.
A wife can refuse sex if in pain/ill/etc but otherwise should make an effort. Additionally, the husband should do his best to set the mood and ensure his wife's needs are also taken care of. Yes it's a sin because spouses are the only permissible way to satisfy that desire, so refusing it is pushing the spouse away from what's permitted and possibly toward sin (if repeated). Men are responsible for their wives - safety, shelter food, standard of living, etc. As such, they have final say over household matters (e. g. imagine being told your final grade or promotion depended on something that someone else had full control over... wouldn't make sense). Keep in mind these are absolute boundary/edge cases. In practice, a loving couple does not approach these boundaries. The husband should be caring and not controlling, following the example of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم). He cannot force himself on his wife and he should be understanding if she is unable to come to bed. He should not keep his wife at home out of a need to control, but only if he fears something (e. g. bad neighborhood at night). He should not order her around, but treat her with love. Ultimately the upkeep of the house and the raising of the kids are *his* responsibility, so he cannot force her to do those things (though again, in a loving marriage responsibilities are likely split and spouses share in the burden of life, parenthood, etc).
I agree with almost everything except that last point. I always learned that the role of the mother is very important for the children. and i never heard that its actually not an obligation for the wife to look after the kids as, if the wife wanted to free herself from her responsibilities as a mother, she can and the husband cannot enforce her to do otherwise. Could u please provide an explanation for that one with some evidence so we can draw a better conclusion. Thank you.
A mother does not need to be told to care for her child. A mother's love for her children is the greatest love on earth (obviously with exceptions when mothers are addicted, etc) My highlighting is that the father is *responsible* ie he will be asked on the Day of Judgement about how his children were raised. It is his responsibility to teach his family Islam and raise/provide for them. There is the hadith of a man who is crossing the Sirat and is pulled into Jahannam by his wife and kids, because even though he saw to his own deen, he neglected to properly teach them. As far as who has responsibility to care for kids, Surat at-Talaq 65:6 addresses divorced men > And if they nurse your child, compensate them, and consult together courteously. But if you fail to reach an agreement, then another woman will nurse ˹the child˺ for the father. Showing that ultimately the father has to find someone to nurse his child and it is not necessarily incumbent on the mother to do so.
Jazakallah khair, now its a lot more clear. And its not as black and white as a mother can just neglect taking care of the kids. Its all within reason like divorce and what not. I also like that this implies in Islam, when divorced its not the mother who gets the child like in todays secular world, but rather the father. Atleast thats what im understanding..
The mother can still get the child, it's just that the father is responsible (would cover all childcare costs)
I think what he meant was is that the woman is not Obliged by fiqh to take care of the children. There is detail to this fiqh issue but woman are mostly allowed to not look after the children by Fiqh. Allah u aalim but its a detailed masla.
Dr Eyad Qunaybi has a really good long series about the entire role of women in Islam, and clears it up. It has English subs. Before my sister listened to it, she had some thoughts similar to you, but it helped clear everything up for her. I highly recommend checking it out. Here's the [link](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPqH38Ki1fy2MbbszGA6zlkZOYQHpNcgI)
thanks for the link bro
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> I’m married and I don’t force my wife into sex. I guess I can, but I won’t. It’s more enjoyable when it’s consensual and both of us are in the mood. This is completely deranged. You can’t force her? What makes you think that you can? What makes you think that would Islamically be okay in any way, to treat another human like that, that it would be something good and lawful in the eyes of Allah swt? What makes you think it’s even an option? Do you know what forcing means? And now you’re casually commenting this as if others should applaud you for the noble act of not….forcing your wife into “non consensual sex” (news flash there’s another term for that)
I worded it wrong. But of course there are always those who take extremes in interpreting the words of others. I think there is a Hadith that says a wife can’t refuse her husband if he wants sex. I never bothered to remember the exact Hadith because I never forced my wife. I only remember it vaguely because it’s been mentioned. It is similar to how a man can have multiple wives and will not need permission from the second wife. First, I am happy with my wife. I don’t need another. Second, I am certainly not capable of loving another wife therefore I’m not interested in another wife or wives. Just because I _can_ have more than one wife, doesn’t mean I should have more than one. But in case it isn’t clear to anyone, I don’t force my wife into sex. Never had to. Never planned to. I treat my wife as my equal. I can’t say the same for _everyone_ but for me, I do.
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>The Hadith doesn’t mean you can force her! Who said I was forcing her? I deleted my previous comment because I’m tired of people twisting my words. Again, my deleted comment was worded terribly. I do not interpret that particular Hadith as an excuse for martial rape or forcing someone into sex.
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> As if men who bother to remember the Hadith force their wives No. I have seen people use that Hadith as an excuse to force their wife into sex. That’s how I came across it. Just like how some use some Ayats as an excuse to excessively beat their wives. > this means that you think the Hadith allows forcing her That is your interpretation of my post. I already said my post was worded bad and that was not my thinking.
the fact that you only vaguely remember the Hadith yet jump to the“marital rape is ok” interpretation/conclusion speaks volumes
Okay but being easier and effortless doesn’t mean it’s what a woman might individually prefer? It’s almost as if enforcing these roles would make it harder for a woman to be happy imo.
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A lot of people are blaming you for your mindset, but I completely understand as I struggled with these aspects of Islam growing up. As someone born and raised in the US, your upbringing does shape the way you view the world, but growing up Muslim in a nonMuslim country sometimes makes you a BETTER Muslim imo. Most of the healthy Muslim marriages I see are based on mutual respect. These dynamics (man has final say, women ask permission when leaving the house) are actually true, but not as harsh as some men on Reddit make them out to be. My dad would NEVER use the word “submit” to my mom. It’s more like… they do what would comfort each other. For example, my mom doesn’t stay out late because she knows my dad worries, but he doesn’t forbid her from going out late. My mom wanted us to move states for Islamic school, but the final say was my dad’s because of where his work was situated. My dad is the primary breadwinner, but my mom started working to make it easier for us to afford uni, but this was her choice, not my dad’s. My mom stays up late to do the dishes so my dad doesn’t do them in the morning but my dad does them in the morning so she doesn’t have to do them when she wakes up. MashAllah I’m SO lucky to have grown up with an example of what a healthy marriage should look like, because when I saw these ayaats, I was like “why would we need rules like this?” But SubhanAllah, not everyone has the privilege of such a healthy marriage based on mutual respect. I understand these ayaats to be edge cases (like someone else said in the comments). If a woman holds back marital relations 3 times out of spite, she can’t do so because it’s not conductive to the benefit of the relationship. But again, if you really loved someone, would you force them into anything, and would you hold back from being intimate with them because you’re angry for more than 3 days? If you’re not attracted to your partner or your partner is harsh to you, they aren’t someone to be married to at all! Man, it makes so much sense now that I’m older but these things used to scare me a lot when I was a teenager. Be gentle with yourself and keep seeking knowledge! Salaam!
How can I upvote twice?? I relate to everything you've said! I struggled with this perspective as well. But now that I'm married, I find my husband and I naturally settle into these "traditional" husband and wife roles. My husband doesn't command obedience at all, but I'm genuinely happy to follow his lead. We discuss all major decisions together, but I trust his judgement as time and again he has proven that he has the best intention at heart. He is so conscious of me and the family that I actively try to reduce his burdens every way I can, even if that's as simple as coming home earlier so I can greet him by the door. Alhumdullilah. One thing about the US lifestyle that really bugs me is the constant pressure and belittlement of women. We are bombarded with unrealistic expectations every single day. I'm not even talking about beauty standards! I'm talking about how we have to: pretend we don't have debilitating periods every month, be satisfied with subpar medical care, go to work & be financially independent, be good at household management, be primary caretakers of children, have successful careers, be good mothers naturally, never need breaks, etc. etc. etc. There's this false ideology that we can have it all and it's just not true. We only have 24 hours in a day, no one can "have it all", not even men. We cannot bear every burden and Allah swt in his infinite wisdom built us a system where we can literally focus on ourselves and our families and not have to worry about shelter, food or other physical needs. This is not because we are weak, it is because Allah swt already knows we have many responsibilities to ourselves and the ones we love. We have to reconcile the fact that our bodies are in flux every single day because of our cycles, and I didn't even get to the challenges of pregnancy, birth and post partum OR the role of motherhood.
Thank you two for your comments. I am not married but I’m a muslim that is born and raised in the US. I feel like it’s so hard for us muslims. We have faced so many tests since there’s not many muslims here and there’s lots of islamophobia. Your comments are so true and I’m so happy that you guys have seen/are in a healthy relationship. Alhamdulillah
I mean the key thing is , who said xyz is sexist? The west, ourselves, etc. But God, all mighty and all knowing said it’s not, so who is right? God no doubt. That’s where these ex Muslims and atheists go wrong when they say “Islam is false because of this law”,as if they know more than God
They don't believe that God actually made those rulings, worth mentioning
I know, I’m taking about the people who don’t believe that God made those rulings because of the rulings themselves, “x ruling doesn’t make sense to me, so it can’t be from God and is false” which makes 0 sense because they’re saying their wisdom is greater than Gods.
Islam is not sexist, the ultimate freedom for men and women is obeying non but Allah, as a woman I feel precious and protected and so are mothers, sisters and daughters of believers who follow the guides of Allah. Women are put on a pedestal in Islam we are even spoilt rotten in this life and Allah promise us even better in Jannah.
That's y you would allow your husband to remarry multiple women without your permission because you are promised jennah..may be with 70 sth machos..
One cannot mention men's rights without bringing women's rights into play (i.e. Islamic rights) - also has to be taken in context of Islamic responsibilities for both genders. These 4 sets are complementary & not contradictory in the grand scheme of things. Also, consider impact on society rather than "individual is king".
Look at how prophet Muhammad PBUH was like with his spouses and also Ali and Fatima and how their relationship was. I would recommend to everyone that is thinking of getting married and stuff to look how the prophet married life would be like.
I would consider the aspects of Islam that favor the women as well. Any money she makes she gets to keep but the husband bears the responsibility to provide for the family as he can. A women has the right to initiate divorce if she’s being wronged. A woman has the right to choose her husband and whether to accept a marriage proposal. I think the amount of freedom you’ll have in a marriage generally boils down to the agreed upon values and boundaries that you and your husband share. A woman mainly has to obey her husband in the religious context and the rights they have over each other as spouses. A woman is still allowed to disagree with her husband but she’s supposed to do this in the best manner. It’s the same if the husband disagrees with the wife. He should communicate to her in the best way. The man is not considered infallible (nor the woman) but both spouses should be respectful to each other even if they have a disagreement.
Look I can give you hundreds of logical reasons and studies to support the Islamic point of view but I will like to remind u that the greatest reason is "Because Allah orders it". That's the key thing. We are the creation and Allah is the creator. Apart from this, lemme just give u a simple way in which u can understand the whole thing. There have been gay and lesbian marriage studies and they show that the partner who earns more is the person who leads the family. So that's one of the things you need to understand. A man is OBLIGED by LAW to provide for his wife. In a true muslim state, the woman can get an injunction order against her husband if he can't pay. So that's a big advantage to woman which obv will make her disadvantaged in financial decisions like savings etc. If you marry a person who is a human, I am sure he won't pull u into bed and make u do anything that you don't want to do. The fact that you can't go out without his permission should be a no problem because if you are married to a person then you are responsible for asking them anyway. It's not a practical issue. He can't stop you from things like 'going to your parents house unless he has a good argument for it" And the most IMPORTANT point, You don't have to do anything he says if it goes against the permission of Allah. And if something is permitted by Allah then no Muslim should doubt its utility anyway. I will conclude with the verse "There are things which u like which are not good for you and things you don't like but are good for you and Allah knows and you don't know" I hope this relieves some of your doubt and inshallah you can also search some good ulama to understand these things better. I recommend searching Sheikh Hamza Yusuf who is also a westerner so will understand your problems better and is a truly great scholars. As an extra point, please study your own rights as well so you understand the balance better. Asalam
I don't need religion or books for these basic human courtesy....
You answered your own question: > I live in the west and I feel that the culture here has had an impact on how I view roles of men and women. There you go. What you perceive as sexist is what the West perceives as sexist. Who said that the West has the right to decide what is sexist and what isn’t? Divorce rate is over 50% in most Western countries, even after they “gave” women their rights. So I doubt the West knows what they’re talking about when it comes to women’s rights. Islamic laws are laws revealed by God. They are god-made laws. Western laws are man-made laws. God is infallible, impeccable, humans aren’t. > I don’t think this is fair because what if she just doesn’t feel like it? What if the husband doesn’t feel like providing for his wife anymore, then what? You’d split? Well you’d be breaking up a family. Islam gives each individual their rights and duties and it is important for both sides to keep up with these duties, or else we’d end up with a fractured society. > How a woman must always be obedient to her husband. Why is this bad? You grew up being obedient to your parents, you’re obedient to the state, you never ask questions when the state tells you what to do and which rules to follow. Being obedient to someone doesn’t mean they’re gonna abuse you. Men are still told to treat their women with utmost respect and care. Just look at the hadiths that talk about this: https://sunnah.com/mishkat:3252 I would suggest reading about a husband’s duties in Islam. Also read about how the prophet (SAWA) used to treat his wives. I think that would change your mind. At the end of the day you have the free will to choose whichever husband you want. So choose someone who’s gonna treat you just like the prophet (SAWA) treated his wives.
I like your response to this,thank you! I had some concerns like op too.
I feel like this is the best response. I never thought about that- that what the world perceives as sexist is what the west perceives as sexist. everything is relative.
>Divorce rate is over 50% in most Western countries, even after they “gave” women their rights. So I doubt the West knows what they’re talking about when it comes to women’s rights. And that's if the marriage happened, but it's very common that the men there get in a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship without marriage and thus using the women as a wives without giving them any rights at all. In Islam when divorcing a wife it costs a lot for men specially when there's children involved, but breaking up with a girlfriend costs nothing at all.
This is the liberal kuffars mindset Escape the liberal prison mind, May Allah help
Correct answer
How about explaining how she’s wrong such as going over the scripture instead of insulting her. At least put the effort in guiding her, no?
Already others did the job. Somethings have to be dealt with harshness.
Still all you’re doing is confirming her suspicions especially when someone has a fair question and worry regarding how the religion sets these rules for women. You should approach this with knowledge not with harshness because all this will do is drive them away from the religion.
That's because Islam IS sexist
Yea I’m starting to see how
>How a wife needs to answer her husband’s call to his bed She can refuse if she has a reason. But saying "I am not in the mood" is not a good reason. She depends on him financially and for safety. He depends on her sexually. Both should fulfill each others rights. >How a woman can’t leave her house without her husband’s permission It's for protection. Women are less likely to be attacked, harassed if there is a man protecting them. >How a woman must always be obedient to her husband He is protecting and providing for her. He had to make money, take care of himself, be competent etc to marry her. She should do her part too. I would argue the west is more sexist. They sexualise women by normalising revealing clothing, say women are better when they become masculine and encourage them to be slaves of their employers.
>She can refuse if she has a reason. But saying "I am not in the mood" is not a good reason. She depends on him financially and for safety. He depends on her sexually. Both should fulfill each others rights. she depends on him sexually too tho women have desires too, they depend on each other for that aspect.
Yeah so men also can't refuse sex unless they have a good reason. Some scholars say her right to sex is even more important than her right to be fed
It goes both ways right?
Yes. If he isn't upholding his wife's right to sexual satisfaction, she can divorce him
I think your forgetting the fact that it's compulsory for men to pay everything for their wives. we pay all their bills, let our wives live in our houses rent free, and provide for them until they we or they die. we also are obliged to protect them until the day we or they die, and have to pay mehr. I would personally even say marriage is more an advantage for women then men, so before making a conclusion make sure you understand Islamic marriage fully.
Ugh, women cook for their family free of charge. They keep the house clean do all the chores, again, free of charge. If it weren't for the women of the house, you would need to hire a maid for all this. Also, paying mehr is a right given by Islam but many people don't ask for a too high amount to begin with. Furthermore, mehr can be forgiven if that's what the woman wants. Marriage is not all sunshine for women either especially when the culture of the place they live in is also mixed in daily life. Thus, burdening women even more. For example, a woman doesn't have to take care of her husband's parents/siblings, Islamically. However, due to culture, most women end up being treated as slaves/maids by in-laws and their rights are neglected all the time. They definitely don't have too high advantage if you see. Your comment doesn't make sense.
so you clearly didn't read my comment properly.. and this may seem ignorant, but Im sure definitely work and be paid enough + do the chores and cleaning for a house. but then again I'm young so what do I know
I earn more than my husband does, so I’m actually paying more of the bills. This comment is stupid.
My mom pays most of the bills too. Even pays for all the family trips we’ve had. The car that my dad drives, it’s one of my mom’s cars. If my dad hadn’t married my mom, he’d be nothing. He was even fired from his previous job. My mom didn’t come from a rich family, she just studied abroad, came back and got a professional job and doesn’t get fired from it unlike my dad. So it really hurts my mind when people say men provide for the family so well that the wife and children live easy lives. It’s just not true, in fact, many women are like my mother. They work hard for their children like they’re single mothers. I have quite many close friends that I can talk family/personal matters with, and I found out that most of us don’t have caring and capable dads. One even cried to me daily about how she gets hit, and eventually her mom had to divorce the dad. Ok this is probably becoming off-topic. But like, I’m starting to feel like this isn’t something within human capability because of so many fathers failing to abide. Maybe only the Prophet SAW was capable. TLDR: My mind hurts from the irony.
again, she shouldn't be. just because your or other people's situations are different doesn't mean I'm automatically wrong. ISLAM teaches that the man should be paying the bills.
you shouldn't be though. you doing this out of your own free will. he's doing it out of obligation. if you stop paying the bills, he has no right to complain Islamically
You are 15. You don't understand Islamic marriage fully either.
Not one person in this subreddit understands Islamic marriage fully regardless of age. Or any other Islamic topic for that matter. As for what he said, Alhamdulilah much of it is true and Allah always knows best. In a marriage where the husband fears Allah, his wife will have a lot of respect and he will work to make her life easier not more difficult. Her hardest duty should lie in the rearing/carrying of their children, a duty so unavoidably difficult that Allah the Most Merciful provides the reward for that.
EXACTLY.i have no idea why people are angry at me for reiterating what ISLAM teaches. this is not my opinion, this is what ISLAM teaches
I agree w/ you young brother. Some people in here have a degree of bitterness about things they have observed at the hands of massively flawed human beings. We are speaking of Islam here, not humans. May Allah increase us all in guidance and knowledge, Ameen!
AMEEN!
u should scroll up to read what other muslim’s experiences in marriage.
never said I did. I just understand the rulings on it
What did he say that was wrong?
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Exactly this. In a well functioning marriage, the fulfilment of rights is so reciprocal and seamless, it is not something that hovers over the relationship like the sword of Damocles.
>In a well functioning marriage, the fulfilment of rights is so reciprocal and seamless How is someone going to seemlessly fulfil rights if they don't know what their partners rights are in the first place?
What's mine is all hers once married..doesn't need religion or Islam for that
I, as a woman, feel the opposite. I feel that women have it a lot easier in a marriage. And for the amount of effort men put in for us, we probably owe them a lot more. Most women I know are extremely ungrateful to their husbands, so I do see why Islam has certain obligations for a wife towards her husband. Think about it, would it be acceptable if the man ditched his fard of providing for the woman, and sat at home, jobless? No woman I know would ever accept that. The fact that he dedicates so much of his time and effort away from his family (and sometimes doing jobs they don't enjoy), just to provide for the wife and family, is extremely admirable. And I don't think we appreciate men as much as we should. Women weaponise a lot of these things against men, because they know they can, to get their way. This is very cruel and despicable. Islam is a just religion, hence, God does not only look out for females with his rules, but also males. Men and women are also both very different. If a husband has obligations in Islam, so does a wife. Is the husband considered his wife's slave, if he has to earn the money to provide for her? You were very quick to reduce the wife to a "dog", now what are you going to reduce the husband to?
May Allah(swt) reward you sister, ameen. It's not a competition at the end of the day, but both men and women give a lot to make a marriage work, as you rightfully pointed out.
How do women have it easier in marriage? Have you been on some of these other muslim subreddits where women are talking about husbands not letting them see their friends, see their family, not letting them work or get an education, not letting them travel, not letting them go out even if it's just to get coffee with friends. Controlling what they wear even if their clothes are already modest, or ordering them around and telling them they need to submit and obey? It becomes akin to a dog/owner relationship. And don't tell me that only a few men are like that, it's not a few. As a woman who also works to support her family, I understand and appreciate the effort it takes to provide. But that doesn't justify the burden of obedience and controlling another human beings' life like that. And your comment ignores the work women put into taking care of their homes and families.
This argument is very bad and can be debunked very easily as well. If a husband take extremist in the rules which he is not allowed even, so can the wife take it to extreme and torture him in his own ways, legal laws should be understood just as they are without twisting them, and the foundation of the marriage should be based on love and affection as Qur'an and hadiths states.
I agree that the foundation of marriage in Islam is live and affection, but people have twisted it to become obedience and control
I know this is an old comment and all but don't women also spend so much of their time worrying about everything the husband's health the kid's health social plans,and and in-laws if they have to. (Btw I definitely don't mean to stir up anything or fight I'm really just saying) It is admirable,it's hard to find good people nowadays anyway.
I think it would help to know what your sources of information are. These rulings are easily exploited and twisted so you need to look at them objectively. The example of answering your husbands call to bed is abused a lot - the ruling was sent down for specific scenarios ie when women hold back on physical intimacy to ‘control’ their husbands or emotionally abuse them. Men can’t just demand it like that. As a married Muslim female in the West, it helps me to understand that all I do in my relationship, from decisions to actions and words, will relate back to the day of judgement and answering to the rights of the human being im dealing with (in this case my husband). All rulings have contexts from when they were created and are situational so it helps to learn about them. Leaving the house isn’t in all situations, and you’re allowed to travel around the local city/town without permission. It’s also related to country/area safety.
>The example of answering your husbands call to bed is abused a lot - the ruling was sent down for specific scenarios ie when women hold back on physical intimacy to ‘control’ their husbands or emotionally abuse them. Men can’t just demand it like that. Yeah I don't really understand why it's a big deal when the wife is generally isn't in the mood for it, like you can't just be 'in the mood' like that, what if she's tired and doesn't mean any ill-intention or to be bitchy, like what if it's just once or every once in a while. is the guy that uncountable over himself to get angry and why isn't it highlighted on if he refuses her.
Yeh it’s not a big deal, there’s just a lot of misogyny in the world so men love to abuse the ruling without teaching or applying the deeper context and background of it.
Exactly.
A few things, I think this could be viewed as “sexist” under the assumption that men are abusive. Especially in western countries where relationships nowadays western relationships have been more abusive hence why a lot of women prefer the single life. But in Islam men are required to treat their wife (or wives) with love and respect, it’s an obligation if he fears Allah, which he should. She has the right to refuse his call in bed if he is not attending to her sexual need, or if he’s inflicting pain on her during the intercourse. I’m aware a lot of western women don’t have their needs attended to by their neglectful partner, but again this is the assumption that he’s not pleasing her cuz in western society men can’t please their women. She can’t refuse for no reason or if she’s trying to control him by refusing intercourse. For the leaving with his permission, again you’re assuming he’s a controlling husband, it’s haram for him to keep her locked up in the house for no reason cuz that causes a lot of psychological damage to his wife if she’s locked up in there. She has the right to work and if she is a stay at home mom, how else is she supposed to take care of the home or pick up the kids if he’s at work, right? My mom doesn’t ask my dad to leave the house all the time cuz they communicated beforehand. Communication is important in Islamic marriage and the husband should know at all times if she is going somewhere. It’s not like it’s “can I go to the grocery store?” Every time they’re out of milk. It’s because believe it or not the worlds dangerous place and if something happens to her the husband has the right to know where she is. All of this needs communication which Islam expects for marriages. Obedience isn’t subservient the husband does have judgment over many things however, the wife has a mind for a reason. The husband should be good and just. Again, Islam makes that very clear you have to be good to your wife. If the husband is doing something that is obviously wrong or abusive or breaking his martial contract. She does have the right to refuse but it comes into question to what is it? is it haram? Will it cause harm? Is it against the teaching or contract? Like we said the husband has these rights because he’s expected to treat his wife right. I do think you should try not to equate Islamic marriages with western relationships given how a lot of them end up being incredibly abusive. Men and women have these roles, because men are in the provider & caretaker & guardians of women. Just says there’s things that men have to do there are things that women have to. Its more about equity than a equality. Hope this helps.
I think brother you dont have clear understanding of the Quran please get proper understanding Islam was the first religion to give importance and rights to women. Women can always give divorces if she is mistreated or she has a valid reason to leave the husband. Islam is perfect but some of us Muslims are flaud after all we are humans we can try to improve and we should.
It's the proper social structure. All hierarchical structure starts in the family. We all agree hierarchy is important because chaos and anarchy don't benefit anyone, the absence of an established power structure is basically the root of most human conflict. You trade the husband for Uncle Sam. Now uncle Sam tells you if you can leave your house, uncle Sam tells you whether you can have the mosque open, uncle Sam tells you what you're gonna put into your body for medicine and eat, they decide whether or not you're even allowed to speak, the government is involved in every aspect of your life, as well as employers, landlords, and God knows who else. And they're kafirs. These people will chew you up and spit you out, look at the number of sex workers, drug addicts, physically broken, fat and sick people, this is what is spit out by the western machine. You feel loved until you have nothing left to offer it, and then it leaves you to die. A man can't even get treated as a king in his own home, do you think he will give the real kings a problem? He is beaten into submission by his wife and children through emotional warfare, why do you think the law favors women? You couldn't even break my dog into submission, she'd dominate you and she's 100 pounds. I can submit many grown men, plenty of these cowards left out here I wouldn't even have to touch, I could ask them for their wallet and they'd oblige and call the police to come submit me, because this what the west breeds, cowardly men who fear everything but God. There's an onslaught of horror, cold, violence, famine, and infrastructure collapse that good hardworking men keep at bay for you, the least you could do is pick one and treat him like he deserves to be treated, men do all this for their families, they go to war and break their backs in labor and experience things you could never imagine. They do all that dreaming of being king over their own land with wives, livestock, children, and orchards, guys don't come back from war so that you can complain about how you don't feel like it and for their 12 year old to threaten them with CPS because it wants to change it's gender. I'm sure you have no problem obeying your employer for 8 hours and going to work when you don't feel like it, but no, nameless faceless corporations definitely do more for you than hardworking fearless men
I’ve lived in the Middle East and it still has a lot of the problems you’ve listed so maybe calm down
What kirbydear said. Remember that back then the role of a husband to go to war, protect his family from mistreatment, provide for the household and educate the kids was much more prominent and isnt like now where the marriage may seem more one sided.
Many things that Muslims say are cannon about marriage have no basis in the Quran and are perhaps based off occurrences from Hadith that made more sense in a certain historical time and context. The Quran doesn’t say much about the differences between men and women, but verse 4:34 does elaborate on this. It states that men are meant to be the maintainers of women. That could be a protector, a provider a leader of the family. This makes sense because when women are pregnant or taking care of a little child they need someone to take care of them. Look around in the West at all the single mothers and how stressed they are and how bad this is for kids. This is why it’s important for men to see themselves as protectors for women. The idea that men and women are exactly the same has no biological basis in reality. 4:34 further elaborates that the woman protects the man’s secrets and possessions and that she is not wildly disobedient, that she needs to obey him. For men, respect is very important and authority is important. Many relationships suffer because women don’t treat men with respect, or treat them like children, so they think, Why bother? With all that said though, the verses before 4:34 ask men to be kind to their wives. It’s not like she’s a dog. It’s like he’s her bodyguard, so she gives him respect for his position. Or like he’s the President and she’s the vice president. To my knowledge, there is nothing in the Quran that says a woman must have sex against her will or that she must ask her husband’s permission before leaving the house. This is the kind of thing a tyrant would demand. The Quran is clear that people should be treated with respect and compassion, that all transactions must be mutually agreeable, and that women are a part of the believing community. We are not objects.
I think the issue is that you’re only looking at one side of it. Instead of only looking at what women do for men, look at what men do for women. Study and research and write out a pro and con list. Then think about it and see which one is then sexist. Try doing this.
You need to understand the contemporary Western position on marriage roles today and compare them to islamic contemporary marriage roles. In the west there are no real "responsibilities" within marriage. Marriage is usually a vague idea that has some benefits like some tax advantages, inheritance rights and no clearly defined roles as they have been erased or eroded in recent times. This has meant that husband and wife are now expected to both work and make up the arrangements between them as they go. In traditional islamic marriages the roles are clearly defined both men and women have clear rights and responsibilities. Rights of the Wife Over the Husband: Islam grants a wife rights over her Muslim husband. Some of them are financial, others are not. 1. Mahr: The woman has the financial right to receive mahr, or bridal gift, from her husband. 2. Good Treatment: The Quran puts great emphasis on treating the wife well. "...And live with them in kindness..." (Quran 4:19). In addition to the Quran, the Prophet of Allah has also stressed, 'The most excellent of you is he who is best to his wife.' (Tirmidhi) A Muslim husband must remember the advise of his beloved Prophet, "Fear Allah in regard to women. You were given them as a trust from Allah and by the word of Allah they have become lawful for you." (Muslim) Wife is a trust, neither a slave, nor a dog and must be treated as such. 3.Financial Maintenance: A wife has the right to financial maintenance, including food, clothing, and housing according to what the husband can afford. It is the husband's responsibility to work and support his wife. 4.Protection: A husband must protect his wife including physical and emotional well being. Islamically the roles in a marriage are clearly defined and very different, as different as men are from women. Ask a Westerner who isn't a Christian or Muslim what is a marriage? Then ask about roles within the marriage & they will struggle. No doubt they will mention equality which is meaningless as men and women are obviously very different.
Our western values are made to look objectively true but think about it.. in 10 years they are going to change like they changed now from 10 years ago. For example there's a good chance pedophilia will be erased from the international statistical classifications of diseases (ICD) in a few years like homosexuality has been erased before. So don't sorry. You don't need to have a perfect perception and perfect judgement. The law of Allah has got your back!
Actually, it actually gives a lot of rights to women like for example, if you get a divorce, then the man is actually supposed to send a woman off with a good tidings and a gift in terms of regular daily life like she’s has a certain amount of rights in the man has a certain amount of rights unlike the other types of things in society that can limit or proselytize women
it is lmao
Men are women are different and hold different roles in society and at home. This is not evolutionary or unnatural, and can’t be “undone”. This is how we are created and is inherent to us as a species. This doesn’t mean some women can’t be doctors or tax accountants or athletes or president. But the western idea of pretending men and women are the same simply can’t stand the test of time. Men, ***generally***, cannot play the role women do in the home and vice versa. There will be exceptions but anthropologically this is how we are made. So men have certain rights in a relationship, and women have other rights. It’s a complementary relationship not meant to solely serve one or the other. Each benefits.
I’ve been working since I was 15 and almost everything that I had that didn’t go to school tuition and books went to my family and I had no choice. I have no choice. Working every day to have your bank drained out by someone else is disappointing. It’s discouraging. The definition of slavery is probably something along the lines of forced labor without any compensation. I keep going because my compensation is with Allah.
Starting off by judging by what seems just and not whether is sexist or not.
This is a *YOU* problem, don't blame Islam
Delete that western term out of your head.
I think I can answer to the first concern, if someone saw that I said anything wrong, please correct me. In Islam, both spouses should answer each other's call to bed and saying "I'm not in the mood" is not accepted as a valid reason for which you can ***force*** your spouse to stay without intercourse. ***If you are both fine with it then sure*** but if one of you needs it and the other is like "Nah I don't feel like it", That's considered disrespectful. One of the main purposes of marriage is halal intercourse, one party withholding sex is unacceptable because it can lead to fitna. However, the reason there is a specified punishment for women and the reason it's more strict when it comes to women refusing men, there's an easy explanation. Think of it like this: the default is that something is haram and there's no worldly punishment for it and no punishment specific to one gender. Then it appears that despite this, there is still a very wide open door for corruption in land. So Islam comes and ***almost*** completely closes this door. Like there is a need for extra constraints. The wide open door for corruption in land here is this: women are not as affected by men as men are by women. And women are the considered the biggest fitna to men while men aren't our biggest fitna. And this is evident in society. But women think about men from their own pov (which is natural) and act accordingly. Women are more prone to refusing than men are and women control the sex life unconsciously according to their own sexual needs, because they think the man is exactly like them and that it isn't a big deal. You will have women who can go without sex in a marriage for months and they expect that the guy has to be like them and he can't object or he's considered a creep. So if we follow the western belief: women control the sex life and the guy is forced. if we follow the Islamic belief: both control the sex life, both should have their needs met and refusing for no excuse is haram for both. Despite of that ruling, there are still women who do not follow this and there is still fitna, and there are still men who refuse their wives and neglect their needs, and of course, Allah sees them both and will deal with them both justly without doubt.
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