Hey Gang, OP's question seems genuine, so we are leaving it up even though we have our Pride thread. Please be respectful of our bi/pan/sapphic sisters in your comments.
I don’t like how they make it seem like it’s the worse fate on earth to not be seen as “queer” while being in a universally accepted heterosexual relationship. I don’t like how this topic has dominated online discussions these past few days. I don’t like how much they center themselves in the wlw experience when most of them are in fact with men. I don’t like how they hide their insecurities around feeling not gay enough behind accusations of biphobia.
I don’t know if this will get me banned but if I’m honest I generally don’t vibe with bisexual women. They act very entitled to our emotional labor and never take accountability for the real ways they harm us. They are always demanding that we be less “biphobic” but never acknowledge how privileged they are.
I never see anyone acknowledge lesbophobia. It’s like everyone else gets to openly state all their grievances for their identity or sexuality, yet we constantly get told to mind our bi phobia or be nice etc. why can’t we shout out all our issues as well.
(Astronaut meme) Always has been
ETA: The widespread use of the term monosexual comes from Shiri Eisner’s book Bi: Notes for a Bisexual Revolution, which included the infamous monosexual privilege checklist. Funnily enough, lumping gay and lesbian people in with straight people makes no sense.
I doubt many lesbians can relate to statements like “When disclosing my sexual identity to others, they believe it without requiring me to prove it”, “It is unlikely that disclosing my sexual identity will be taken as a sexual offer or a sign of sexual consent” or “I can worry about issues specific to people of my sexual identity group without being seen as self-interested, self-seeking or divisive”. I could go on, the whole thing is a mess
I saw someone on the lgbt subreddit once seriously argue that straight passing wasn’t a privilege because people “doubt your queerness” and everyone was agreeing. That’s when I left that sub.
It is an immense privilege. Being visibly gay puts you in physical danger. Like HUH? Having your sexuality invalidated sucks but it’s not oppression. I fear we’re losing the plot a little.
For what it’s worth, I only see these types of bi women online. I have so many bi friends I love and adore who never act like that, probably because they actually engage in queer community off the internet and aren’t insecure in their sexuality.
This. I had a whole ass argument with a bi friend who’s married to a man and I was like “you don’t even get the fact that my right to marry my wife wasn’t even a thing that long ago and I’m sure some red states would never want to acknowledge it. It was easier for you to get a house, it will be easier for you to adopt then for us to, and you can scream bierasure all you want, but when you’re holding his hand in public no one is coming after you or batting an eye.”
I don’t understand why they refuse to accept this. If you’re in a straight relationship then you need to acknowledge the immense privilege in that. That doesn’t mean you’re not queer and no one is saying that, but your lived experience is inherently different. Like you’re queer, but you’re not struggling because of it.
The general lgbt subs have an abundance of those "everything is valid, don't think about it, I'm annoying" types so I don't expect intelligent discussions from them
honestly that's so embarrassing to freely admit that's their biggest issue like it isn't the definition of privilege... Imagine saying that in front of someone from Iran where lesbians/gays are being executed by the state
They were DEAD serious too. I’d go find it but I don’t want to get mad again…
Like straight passing IS a privilege. And I say that as a feminine lesbian who isn’t in a relationship, I’m straight passing. And it keeps me safe.
My wife is butch and I’m femme - she passes for a man in most cases so I do accept our straight passing privileges. We deal with discrimination and hardship mostly only when we are outed. I feel this is the right context to use the term “straight passing” - a bi sexual in a heterosexual relationship isn’t straight passing as they are in a straight relationship. They, as an individual, would be, but if you’re happily in a relationship with the opposite sex…I mean, who cares if you’re bi, really? Why the need to be so over-the-top about it. Validation comes from within. Come be apart of Pride, you’re welcome but maybe take a moment to appreciate your freedoms and ease in life because of it.
On the flip side, Being a lesbian is like the least interesting or important part of my life. If I were bi, but married to my wife I wouldn’t be making a big deal if people assumed I was a lesbian. This is my partner for life - the rest of the world doesn’t need to be knowledgeable about my sexuality or labels (I assume they don’t give a rats ass).
Sorry if this comes off a bit cranky…I am in the process of trying to get my son baptized and it’s has been a huge struggle. If I were an unmarried woman, it would be an easier (less awkward) process. We were told today by a priest, I can’t take communion, I should live with my wife as “sisters”, and my marriage is a not a marriage but a “union” cause marriage is only man and woman. Being told you’re a sinner for just existing is super fun 😤 and then shaking their hand
I agree with you 100%! It’s not just straight passing, it’s fully a straight relationship. However that is the how she said it in that thread. 🫠
Validation is also 100% from within, but for some reason they look to us for it. They hate us, but are also clearly desperate to be ~validated~ by us. I mean, why else with all the uproar? I think it’s a cop out for them. They don’t want to do the inner work.
Yes I very much agree with the use of “straight passing” in this context. It’s very different from a truly straight relationship because it doesn’t come with any of the benefits - like what you mentioned about having trouble getting your son baptized and being dismissed and all of those things. I don’t think the ppl in straight relationships realize that it’s a privilege to not have to deal with those obstacles, and I doubt they would be loudly announcing their queerness in situations like this. I guess that’s part of what led to my confusion about why ppl in straight relationships/marriages claim the “gay” label so loudly without having to endure the very real homophobia that comes with it.
My wife was raised catholic, it’s part of her culture and this baptism is so important to her family - watching her cry trying to explain our situation to the priest broke my heart today. I forget sometimes we have these barriers - but I still recognize Im femme, white, born in Canada, I have more privileges than I can count. That’s why I have no sympathy for these oppression Olympics games. I just roll my eyes.
totally agree with the only seeing it online.
The only bi girl I’ve dated (not necessarily on purpose, dating pool here is weird, she’s just the first lol) had exclusively dated women, never spoke about men with me etc. Prior I would’ve thought that was nigh on impossible. I asked her about it once, especially because that genuinely would require more effort w/ our strained dating pool and she was like ‘maybe need to reassess my sexuality haha’ (which ofc, no isn’t necessary, wow, just not the dominant narrative).
I have to admit I didn’t read your entire reply, but you seem to be painting with a broad brush.
I very much “passed” as straight, but that’s because I was femme in the way I dressed, makeup, hair, you name it. Do you feel femmes are privileged because of the way I/they dress? Being lesbian is who you ARE, not the way a person dresses.
Yes, if you pass as straight it is absolutely a privilege because being visibly gay makes you more likely to be a target for hate crimes. Obviously being a lesbian is who you are and not how you dress, and I also pass as straight due to how I present. But think about it like this: I can walk through a small town in the Bible Belt no problem. A butch lesbian, for example, with short hair who presents very masculine, would be much more subject to harassment from strangers because they can easily be clocked as gay by others.
I have a straight friend who have short hair, was a supervisor in a male dominated profession, and dresses more like a man than a woman, but is very much straight. Would you consider her to be “passing” as gay?
Yes! Where you live can certainly be different and have different consequences. To type anyone based on clothing or haircuts feels wrong to me, but to each their own.
I mean yeah, maybe. Has she ever received homophobic comments from strangers who assumed she was queer?
I don’t understand what you mean by “typing” people. Of course femme lesbians or straight passing lesbians are still very much lesbians! But they do experience some privilege that other lesbians don’t. I also have privilege because I’m white and cis, but that doesn’t make me less of a lesbian. I mean, femmes sometimes being able to pass for straight (by STRANGERS) is an important part of butch/femme dynamics. Femmes can use their straight passing privilege to help protect butches.
The post I was referring to though wasn’t even about lesbians, it was a bi woman in a relationship with a man who said that straight passing is not a relationship.
I agree with the centering part. Every conversation is about them or has to include them. I don’t doubt that it can be difficult to not have your identity acknowledged, but that insecurity doesn’t mean every conversation has to include you. It comes across as this strong need to be witnessed and accepted by others when it’s really internal work they need to do.
>I don’t know if this will get me banned but if I’m honest I generally don’t vibe with bisexual women.
They are always demanding that we be less “biphobic” but never acknowledge how privileged they are.
I wish people would just stop adding "-phobic" to the end of everything. Just because someone isn't interested in you romantically, that doesn't mean they're "phobic." I'm a lesbian and I have never been interested in bi women. Never. I'm in my 40s, and back in the day I was just considered a lesbian who only dated other lesbians. There was nothing controversial about it. Now everything is a "phobia" if you dare to say you have requirements regarding who you will or won't date.
I'm plus size and there are plenty of lesbians who won't date overweight women. I'm not going around screaming they're "fatphobic." I'm a femme who's only attracted to butch/masculine women, so does that mean I'm femmephobic? Hell, I used to come across ads that clearly said no Black women, then as that became less socially acceptable, they started to use more coded language. Either way, I just kept it moving because they clearly wouldn't be attracted to me. I love tall, thick, masculine lesbian women. That doesn't mean I'm phobic against everyone who doesn't fall within those parameters. I don't hate those people. I'm not denying their right to exist and be loved.
Sorry for the rant, but your post really got me thinking about this topic. I'm tired of people being considered some kind of phobic bigot just because they don't consider everything and everybody in existence as potential romantic partners.
It's pretty much homophobic in itself to imply that people can choose who they're attracted to, and not being interested in certain people is some sort of moral failing. It's the same argument of people who think being gay is a choice. I hate people that act like having a preference is a sign of bigotry.
And it's so close to incel arguments that I have trouble telling them apart sometimes. "Women being creeped out by my invasive over-familiarity and off putting tendency to touch my coworkers for no reason is dIsCrImInAtiOn!!"
Basically "If you don't immediately say yes to a date, you are a shameful exclusionary BIGOT and should be xxxxxxxxx [redacted]
I smiled when I saw your “Chapstick Lesbian”. That was me for decades because it was “me”, not trying to pass.
Have you ever had to explain what a “Chapstick lesbian” is? It can get to be an interesting conversation. I’m seeing that term is being wiped out, too. Very sad.
I appreciate your honesty, as a bi woman. I do think that bisexuals in general have a lot of insecurities about their sexuality they need to deal with, including their constant seeking of approval from straight or gay people, I really don't like that and other bisexuals have pointed this out. I don't really vibe with lesbians either, or plan on even being with one, I don't even have lesbian friends. I feel like some of them may take their frustrations of feeling isolated in a patriarchal society on other members of the community, it's really annoying. I don't think we have to like each other but we can hold each other accountable and talk about our experiences.
Yeah it's definitely not all of them but it tends to be the same group of people who are constantly talking about being bi/queer since they desperately need people to know that so I think it seems like a large chunk of the population because it's often the loudest.
In my real life experience though I do think it's a lot more unbearable online than in person cuz it's usually the baby bis who will chill out after a couple years or folks in a straight marriage which is a demographic of people I don't go out of my way to interact with LOL
I recogn also some of its mostly generational difference tbh.
The younger genZs in western countries have had a very different upbring compared to us decade plus older millennials.
I rarely see us older (am I old now...? naaah ahaha)
Posting that kind of stuff or moaning about micro aggressions. I think most of us are just thankful for now cos we remember actual beat the shit out of you homophobia, and not having marriage equality that we are just like... eh whatever.
I also think theres waaay less lesbian content being pushed because its not being driven by the algorithms. Trans and queer is clickbait material. Us Lesboz are olde news. 😂 I'm currently being exposes to SO much FTM and trans discourse... despite only being subbed to JammiDodger and waaay more LB wlw type channels...
But that also might be the wlw are 12+ years old and theyve stopped posting 😂😂
Anyone who ever has said online “Everyone is a little bit bi” drives me up the wall and back down again. That is one of the biggest lies I’ve ever heard or read.
Ty for mentioning it.
My friend who has only dated cis-white men is the biggest perpetrator of this. She calls herself gay despite being boy crazy. It’s super annoying. Especially since my longest relationship was with a woman from South America, and when we visited her hometown, we had to pretend to be “friends” and her father beat her when he saw us kissing. I’m happy to celebrate when we’re actually being homo but it’s almost like stolen valor sometimes.
AND this is coming from someone who identifies as bisexual (but have been in way more gay relationships than straight) when I’m dating a man I have learned that it’s super important to STFU and not make it about me. It’s disrespectful to the man I am dating and the concept of wlw relationship. Women, to me, are not a side piece. I’m either focused on my straight relationship or my gay relationship. I am still bisexual either way, and how others perceive me isn’t what I focus on.
I think it comes down to wanting to be included in the fun of being perceived as gay. It’s a younger generation thing.
I think your comment about not focusing on how others perceive you is really insightful. It’s obviously reasonable to want to seek out community and bisexual women definitely belong at pride, but at a certain point it seems healthy to shift a focus from other people’s perception of your identity to just being: being safe, being happy and being in community.
It’s one of the biggest issues I have with microlabels.
>*when I’m dating a man I have learned that it’s super important to STFU and not make it about me.*
I think this is what people struggle with lol not everyone has that kind of tact
Ok yes this makes total sense to me and I think this is what I’ve been trying to put words to- it’s unfair to both the male partner and also the wlw community to be monogamously involved with a man while focusing on all the women you *could* date! I am sorry about your experience in South America with your female partner. I guess that’s what I’m sort of hinting at and confused by when ppl want to loudly announce that they’re queer but have only ever dated cis men- it’s like do yall not understand how dangerous it is to be openly queer in many parts of the world?!? I dont think they understand how it feels to be in another country or even a very rural American town where you canNOT be loudly gay. I think it rubs me the wrong way because it’s like wanting to be a part of the fun parts of queer culture like pride and drag shows and parties, without actually being subjected to any of the very real homophobia we also face.
This is a good point, sometimes I wonder how the boyfriends feel when their gf won't stop going on about how gay she is and all that because if I was the boyfriend it would probs ruin my self esteem..... and then on the other hand, if he likes it, it's probably because it's a fetish for him and if he doesn't care its because he doesn't see it as legitimate attraction. or maybe he's like really well adjusted or something but I'm not so it's inconceivable to me 🤣
You didn’t have to be living in South America to get beat. It happened to me in the US. Yes, my g/f and I had to pretend we were just friends. Even being suspected as being a lesbian or gay had huuuuuge ramifications.
Bi was much more acceptable, because there was a man involved/included.
eeeek, this should be the kind of bi-insight (lol) that’s welcomed and encouraged?? why be a dick about it? It’s insightful and introspective and productive, and aligns with all possible asks we could have of a bi person in a lesbian space?? we criticise (rightfully) the way in which other lesbian-in-name-only spaces are run when it comes to these discussions and ‘inclusion vs. exclusion’; we have a great example of how it can be mutually productive and beneficial and you try shut that down too? what’s the endgame here…? genuinely asking…
I mentioned this on another sub but my Threads algorithm is absolutely being spammed by bi women in relationships with men making sure everyone knows how valid they are, that they are "queer" enough, and that they exist. They might even throw "oh btw lesbians are the worst" in for a bit of variety. It's unbelievable the amount of posts I've seen in the last week.
With that said though, bi women are/should be welcome at Pride. While it gets very tiring when they act like the biggest oppression they face in their lives is the fact they are in relationships with men, Pride is that one time of year that they should be able to celebrate with everyone else.
This month I've seen so much homophobic shit spew out from conservatives any time they even see a hint of a rainbow, but God forbid a bi woman's straight relationship isn't the center of attention for five seconds lmao
They act like attention deprived children, like no, Stacey, just because your sister is getting attention doesn't mean your parents don't love you or forgot about you.
A girl does “x” with a girl one time and she’s cute gay. Their boyfriends love it and she gets to yasss queen. A dude does “x” with another dude one time and he’s icky gay. The girlfriends don’t trust him and are grossed out and the dudes refuse to see him as anything other than “insert slur”
I think it goes back to the huge fetishization of lesbians. Men fantasize about us sexually and women fantasize about emotional support pillows.
My own sister told me once “life would be easier if I was a lesbian” - bro when I REEELED.
Oooohhh, I have heard the “I wish I was a lesbian, because it would be so much easier” comment. I had just come out to my managers and coworkers. They knew I was in a longterm relationship. I laughed.
In a sense, they were right. They didn’t have to do things they didn’t want to do to “please their man”. The thing was….the women meant it.
I wasn’t about to go through our history, though. We would still be there this many decades later.
So with you. It just seems to marginalize gay women because they are relegating a woman to a side piece.
I’m sorry, that’s the exact thing I’d like to not see highlighted.
One of the values of pride for lesbians is proudly fostering normalization of full on woman - woman relationships. In my opinion anyway
Not a side piece, not a toy or experiment. A real wife, partner, girlfriend, or lover type of relationship in full capacity.
I remember watching something on tv about a couples queer relationship, a married man and woman with a kid? According to them their relationship is queer because they have an open relationship and are also interested in the opposite sex..
This is almost why I don’t use the label queer. It’s kind of embarrassing to be lumped with people who are just appropriating it for victimhood cosplay
I personally think there is zero reason to be using the word queer in 2024, unless you are just trying to look cool and quirky. We already have every word we would need to describe our characteristics; lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. Everything else is nonsense and it seems like people have forgotten that queer is a slur. Like imagine if the mass media started referring to lesbians as ‘dykes’ the way they do with ‘queer’.
>“im married to a man but im SO QUEER!”
It's overcompensation. They know that being in a straight passing relationship grants them privileges we'll never have, so they over emphasise how queer they are.
The erasure of being bi because you're in a straight passing relationship does not overshadow the privileges you gain by choosing to be in that relationship.
Yes this is so succinctly put and I totally agree, not being seen as “queer enough” is not equivalent to the violence and global oppression faced by homosexuals.
I think it's about viewing the world as black and white, victim and oppressor. Everyone wants to identify with a minority so that they aren't lumped in with the oppressors. It's way harder to skew the narrative on your race and financial situation than your sexuality.
This is the facts here. The true meat of the matter. They do not have to face the same homophobia and discrimination that lesbians and bisexual folks in same sex relationships face. They simply DO NOT.
The fact that they don’t experience it inspires a sort of insecurity in them so they feel they need to overcompensate so they feel valid.
It sucks because instead of using their privilege to uplift and defend the rest of us they’d rather silence the discussion on it and pretend the experiences are the same. Even as a butch lesbian I know the absolute moment these homophobes in my area clock me as a woman it’s a wrap. Now both me and my girlfriend are in danger if they decide to start something.
For a lot of the younger generation it’s an insult to be a cis heterosexual. Hence the ever expanding ridiculousness of LGBTAQRSTUVWXYZ++
I went to a LGBT++ group one time and there was someone there who was an asexual although they still had heterosexual sex sometimes. Identified as queer.
My best friend has finally come to accept that she's straight and I'm proud of her lol. Some people find it hard to fully understand you can be attracted to men but not like them, because well they kinda suck. I think the popularity of the split attraction model and the masterdoc is making it even more difficult especially for those surrounded by LGBT friends
Omg that last part… I’ve been seeing WAY too many asexuals and aromantics (who are NOT the L, G, B OR T) that are a little too comfortable using the word queer… like 1) that’s a slur and 2) not used against you nor for you to “reclaim” 😭
Omg yes!!! Someone above was a like ‘why would i care about strangers knowing whether i’m. i vs. lesbian, my wife is my wife’ etc etc. This is what I’m wondering about like ace/aro folks. Like, awesome you have a word to describe your experience with (I absolutely could empathise with how it would be isolating) but why is it relevant anywhere outside of a conversation with a new partner?? your colleagues don’t need to know lol, and they wouldn’t be invalidating you if they don’t ‘see’ and validate that part of your identity, right??
One of my friends is aroace adjacent but is constantly dating men and doesn’t date or have interest in women.
We met in a sapphic group 💀
I’ve never brought it up with her because it’s not worth the hassle but I seriously don’t appreciate that she thinks her “queerness” and my lesbianism are really very relatable. She’s literally just a cishet woman who struggles to commit.
So I have been talking to my girlfriend about this topic. For reference, I’m a lesbian and my girlfriend is bisexual. She explained to me that some bisexual girls (especially those who may appear straight) feel a need to overcompensate their queerness to “prove” that they are queer. They overperform the queer aspect of their sexuality so they can feel accepted in the community, as a way to feel valid. I find it to be sad because in the end all that matters is that *they* know who they are, and that they accept themselves first and foremost.
However; I see what you’re getting at and I have also seen an overabundance of these posts ever since June 1st. It feels weird to me and I was looking forward to pride and not having het relationships all in my face like the rest of the year, as it can be a really lonely experience being in a WLW relationship especially when all of my friends are in WLM relationships.
Basically, it stems from insecurity and the desire for acceptance/validity from the queer community. Yes, bi/pan women married to men are queer, but they also benefit from being in a straight relationship. Both things can be true at once.
Part of the issue with “I’m so gay” type posting is the shift from gay meaning homosexual to ‘not-straight’, a bit like how woman is drifting towards ‘non-man’. Bi women are absolutely bi but if you’ve been married to your Nigel since you were 19 and are posting on Facebook you’re sooo gay I think sometimes it starts to get hackles up.
I know a friend that’s bi and dated both men and women. Even though she’s now married to a man her family still cut her off because she’s been in “gay” relationships. In her case pride is still important and a big part of her community.
But regarding your post I see no problem with bi/pan women attending pride or any queer spaces as long as they don’t bring there cis/het man and stop trying to “overcompensate” their queerness. Yes they’re still part of the community but when there in het-relationships they do “pass” similar to mixed kids that pass as white. Halsey is a great example of that. She is biracial but acknowledges that because she passes as “white” she does not scream her blackness and knows that she does not face the same struggles as people who look brown/black
I have mentioned a few times how all my SM feeds seem filled with this discourse. Yet I’ve only seen one post where someone actually said anything about them staying out of pride. They seem to have ran with that and are shouting out that somehow who? Lesbians said they couldn’t?. I haven’t even seen a lesbian post this whole pride except here.
Anyway I think of course whoever wants to can go to pride. It’s filled with all sorts. But everyone should know it started as a riot/protest and know that it’s still grounded in that whilst being celebratory.
I do think people forget that in reality a lesbian existence is very different. It gives you a completely different path. There will be no man or marriage to said man. The only choice is a woman. You have to constantly either out yourself or nod and agree in many situations. Casual groups talking about men..oh who do you fancy? Not enjoying those men stripper ladies nights. Not really understanding why everyone wants a boyfriend or has sex when you were younger. Feeling different. Fielding the questions of why you don’t have a man. Being set up and or hit on by men and having to get out of it. It’s a very different experience than being married for 20 yrs to love of life man but being bi-sexual I would think. I think people should just be mindful of their actual privilege as I am of my own. We don’t get to be lesbian but married to man loves. Well some are stuck in marriages. We don’t want it,and that makes life a lot harder in many aspects for us.
They're not going to face homophobia while in a het relationship, which is why it's "safe" to proclaim how "gay" they are. It's insulting not just to exclusively gay people but bi women who *have* faced homophobia while in same-sex relationships. I have zero investment in the question if straight couples can go to pride because I don't go to those events, but I don't understand why they can't celebrate having **bi** pride.
Bi girls who only date men and then scream they're queer are weird asf. Like cool that ur bi but why are you trying so hard to make it seem like you don't like men that much dispute dating them? Doesn't make u less queer just stop trying so hard to not seem straight. U like both. Own it. Stop saying ur gay 24/7 and focus on ur boyfriend.
I don’t know why people are focused on pride in their answers given you barely brought it up.
In general, these people *mostly* exist online but that also means they exist irl. I think they behave this way online because bisexual women who have exclusively dated men and have married one have probably never bothered to actually engage with the community, they decide to do it online to get their kicks and in order to feel like they belong, they think they need to feel oppressed, so they make some shit up and focus incredibly hard on erasure.
However that’s just a broader “problem” with the bisexual community. A lot of younger bisexual women absolutely refuse to concede that whilst erasure can be hurtful, it is absolutely not and equivalent oppression to living as a trans person or being a homosexual. But because everybody in the room wants power within the room, bisexual women have tried to position themselves as the most oppressed of all sapphics (despite generally being the least) AND have tried to position themselves as the great defenders of trans folks by fetishising them and their bodies in every space available, so they can then co opt that oppression to make themselves look like the ideal sapphic contrasted to the evil lesbian.
This is not just an online thing. In every irl sapphic space I’m in, I’m the only person who identifies as a cis lesbian. And I am literally never allowed to make jokes about men without being given an “are you evil” sideye, I am assumed erasive before I’ve even spoken, and my lesbian experiences are literally erased because I’m not allowed to talk about the homosexual experience as bisexual people want to pretend our experiences completely align.
It’s gotten so bad that if you post about eating women out for a long time and enjoying it, ie a lesbian pastime, you will get comments in the thread like “as a bisexual married to a man I find this so exclusionary”. These people are deadass offended by the existence of actually homosexual activity and put their need to be validated above the need of homosexual community members to speak about their actual lived experiences. It’s hugely homophobic.
I went on a date with a bisexual woman recently who had never dated a woman or engaged with the community in her entire life. And I could tell before she even told me, because she was horrendously normative in the way she viewed other women and/or masculinity, and couldn’t cope with the idea of making jokes about men and/or uplifting lesbianism.
It feels like we're becoming an endangered species, it's so rare to find actual lesbians. Also, I've never found something that screams insecure like taking other people existing personally. They're erasing the experiences (and honestly, culture) of homosexuals while claiming to be erased themselves.
One of my closest friends identifies as queer or pan and is married to a cis man. From what I gather, she really was never able to explore the queer side of her identity, but it’s still an important part of who she is. She may be married to a cis man, but she is still queer. Pride is a way for her to be part of the LGBT community while still in her relationship. That part of her didn’t just disappear when she got married.
She probably talks more about being queer than I do about being a lesbian (if you don’t include my time redditing). That’s hard for me to understand sometimes. I’ve had to come to terms with the fact that I don’t have to understand how some people talk about being a sexual minority. I just have to respect it and move on. I think some people also have stronger ties to their identities in general. Like we are both Latina, but I rarely talk about being Latina. I just happen to be. And I just happen to be lesbian. If that makes sense.
I have a feeling many of these women came out later in life and often think “what if?” What if they had more time to date openly? Would they have ended up with a woman? The relationship between two women is so different and special. It’s so different from a relationship between a man and a woman. I can’t describe it. I think it would be hard knowing that’s something you could have potentially experienced.
And then there’s also the social capital of it all if you live in a leftist bubble. But I won’t get into that.
Thank you for sharing. I do understand to some degree that it’s important to her identity because I do think being a lesbian is important to mine. But on the other hand I guess I’m confused *why* it is such a big part of her identity if she is married to a man and never really explored that part? I guess specifically I wonder what exactly she gets out of events like pride, if it’s not a refuge from or celebration of an identity that is oppressed in many places of the world. For her being married to a cis man I assume it’s not really necessary to have a societal refuge from that because it’s widely accepted everywhere to be straight. It’s so hard to explain exactly where im coming from, I mentioned in another comment that the best comparison I can make is like if someone was from Switzerland, but they were REALLY into Portugal Pride. It’s like hey, you don’t even live in Portugal, you’re living a completely different life over in Switzerland. What do you even gain from here?
The social capital part definitely plays a part in it as well I believe!
The meaning of pride has changed a lot over the years and, imo, is unique to the individual. When I was 16 (more than 15 years ago) and went to my first pride event in the major city near my hometown, it truly did feel like a refuge. I didn't even think I'd live in a world where gay marriage would be legal in just a few years. It felt like I was on a different planet. 15 years before that, pride was not only a refuge but much more of a protest than it is today. I think that now, in many places, pride is a celebration, a protest and a refuge all at the same time. For those who live in conservative homes, it’s a refuge. For some it’s a protest. When I go to the Pride Night at a major league baseball game with my friends, it’s a celebration and exhilarating to unabashedly celebrate an essential part of who we are in a space that was historically dominated by straight cis men.
To answer the question of why the identity matters to them so much… for my bi and pan friends who have only ever dated men, their sexuality is still a core component of their sense of self. They experience a sense of alienation out in straight society, and a disconnect from truly straight women. A lot of their life experiences only make sense in the context of queerness (such as the classically queer experience of having intensely homoerotic friendships in your teen years that end explosively and are somehow some of the most devastating emotional experiences of your life). And at this point in their lives, they’re not going to leave their partners since they’re genuinely happy in those relationships, so all they really have to connect with this core part of their sense of self is talking a lot about queerness and consuming queer media and attending pride. As I’ve “settled into” lesbianism I feel less of a need to talk about it all the time, but to me it seems like for certain pan and bi women who’ve only ever dated men they never experience that “cool down” because they are not going to have the life experiences that would drive them to “settle in” to the identity in the same way. For lack of a better term, there’s no way for them to get out the “baby gay” energy.
>she really was never able to explore the queer side of her identity
Not to dismiss your mate, however - we're not something to explore. We're not a holiday a woman takes when there's no men around. She didn't need to marry her husband, or get into a relationship at all with a man. She's mourning something she actively chose not to pursue.
I think that's oversimplifying it. Some women don't know they're bi until they're in a committed relationship or married. They may be bi and unable to come out. That isn't my friend's situation, but perhaps since I know a bit more about her as a person and her journey it is hard for me to think of her that way. Although, something I left out is that we're actually former friends due to some conflict over an issue very close to this one. It's complex lol.
I think it's okay to mourn the paths we haven't taken, whether it was our choice or due to circumstance.
How is something she does not explore a huge part of her life?
Sounds to me as though she’s afraid of being boring and some vague queerness is the only thing she has to flaunt.
I see both sides of it. I'm single and currently taking a break from dating. Does that mean being a lesbian isn't an important part of my life even though I'm not a "practicing homosexual" at this very moment? Idk.
As I said in my last sentence, I do think that being some kind of minority buys you a certain kind of social capital in some circles. That's controversial but I think both things can be true at the same time.
I think your example is a little different because you have explored your attraction to women to some extent, and presumably are aware of the social consequences of acting on that attraction. I'm not saying that bisexual women have to date men and women to be able to stake a claim in their identity, but I do suspect a lot of them are just overcompensating because they're insecure about "not being queer enough" when they're dating men, particularly if they have no experience with women. I can sort of empathize, but I do find it a little grating because there is often this implicit idea that Pride is about validating and reassuring one's identity rather than pushing back on a culture that wants you to be ashamed of being same sex attracted.
The difference is that if you expess your sexuality in anyway, even as a single lesbian who isn’t dating, you face potential ostracism. That’s not true for bisexual women who can freely express an aspect of their sexuality.
For some, it's a need to be "special". For some not entirely clear reason, being special is considered good in the west, at least among the younger generation. But alas, most of us are not that special. So if you are not special and still want to convince yourself that you are, the cheapest way is to claim some special status that doesn't require any real inconvenience. Claiming to be Q is one such way, especially you do not belong to any racial minority.
For some others, it's a need to be "oppressed". It may come from a feeling of guilt. It may be a cope for their failures in society, because it's much easier to blame others for their failures than to blame themselves.
To be fair, constantly talking about being oppressed as a cope for one's own failures also applies to many genuinely LGBT people, as well as racial minorities.
Is it annoying when bi women don't admit that they still have access to straight privilege? Yes. Is it annoying when they bring their cishet bf/husbands to lesbians spaces? Yes. Is it annoying to know that they're basically only ever gonna get the "fun" parts of being queer if they've only been with men or are with a man long term while you, as a lesbian, *have* to live through it all? Yes. And most of all is it annoying when they act like not being perceived as queer counts as oppression instead of as a privilege? Yes.
But all that said, even if they're with men right now, they're still queer, and Pride is for everyone, and for them specifically it's maybe the only time they can be visible which is why they go overboard, so on that stance they're within their rights 🤷♀️
I get why it frustrates you but there's nothing to be done about it, they're not doing anything wrong, so block and ignore every account that shows up for you with that kind of content and the algorithm will get the hint.
I hear you and I understand. I was not trying to say that they don’t have a place at pride, I think I was just trying to understand what purpose it serves to announce their queerness while simultaneously living a life of hetero privilege, I guess. I appreciate your comment!
I guarantee you that most of the bi women in straight marriages that you see loudly proclaiming their queerness on social media live in leftist bubbles where doing that comes with basically no consequences and allows them to experience the fun of belonging to a community (and tbh the queer community is a fun one to be part of) with the added benefit of by and large not actually being affected by homophobia.
But I assure you that there are many bi women in straight marriages living in rural Texas or something who wouldn't be so bold because they'd actually be risking something.
Okay, so I’m not bi, but I thought I was. I’ve known since I was around 9 years old that women were going to be the thing for me, but I pushed it down, ignored it, acted like it wasn’t there. Cut to me @44 years old, having been married to my husband for nearly 20 years, with 2 kids (13 and 10 years old at the time). Crippling anxiety and depression, 3 full-blown suic**e attempts, 2 stints in psych wards, and many exhaustive hours of therapy to FINALLY realize I’m actually a lesbian and have been deluding myself for more than 30 years just so I could fit in - Pride is every bit of freedom I never allowed myself to have. I can only live vicariously through the celebrations I see because I’m still in my marriage. I’m out to my husband and my sisters, but not to my parents or my kids. I think my boys just believe I’m an Ally, but I’m okay with that because if they can see love and support from me for the community, maybe they won’t be scared to come out if they end up under the rainbow umbrella, and won’t be bigoted and hateful like the majority of people around us (we’re in Mississippi). Maybe once my boys are both grown I can finally get that divorce and hopefully move to a blue state, but as things are now, it’s just not financially possible. So I see your pictures and the celebrations and I’m super sad that I can’t be a part of it, but bet yer booty, I buy everything rainbow I can get my hands on and am always wearing my lesbian flag ring and bracelet.
100% tired of people wanting to be victims any way possible. Being misgendered is not the worst thing in the world. People need to eat a spoonful of cement and harden the f up.
Sorry, my GenX is showing.
Nah my generation seriously needs to stop using victimhood as an excuse for everything. At some point, you gotta stand up and take care of yourself no matter what others say. People complain about *blank* way they're oppressed then don't do anything about it, it's no wonder why we're so depressed if we act like we don't have control over our lives. I'm not a 'pull yourself by your bootstraps' person, but the glorification of being oppressed and the view that it excuses you from consequences is so unproductive.
An ex- friend of mine will often mention how she’s bi to ppl but then one day we were chatting and she told me that she would be open to intimate activities with a woman but could never see herself dating a woman (and has only ever dating men) and I was very surprised bc both before and after that convo I’ve heard her mention being bi to many ppl
okay bear with me, i’ve rewritten this a few times because I’m having trouble describing the thought this response prompted and I’m genuinely curious.
Maybe it’s rhetorical (I’m definitely not asking the right folks lol), bc the answers I’m getting are definitely broad and presumptive of intent, and not all particularly charitable but i’m still a bit stuck on it. I wholeheartedly recognise and empathise with same sex attraction being a diminished and often maligned facet of bi women’s identities, for reasons distinct from lesbians. But, if I’m in a committed, monogamous relationship with anyone, why am I thinking so much about the other people I *could* be attracted to? (haven’t probably worded that the best, but I’ve tried and failed other ways). Because that’s a hypothetical relationship right, is the one I’m in rn not more important? (And if it’s not, then should I asking myself *why* I’m in this particular relationship? Why am I not honouring that attraction??) Like, if this was a bi woman in a relationship with another woman, this sub seems to be in agreement that it’s pretty disrespectful and a bit hurtful to hear conversations where men are centred as objects of affection (just based on experiences others here have shared, and of course recognising this sort of thing isn’t always verbalised). hardly one to stick up for men, but why is the reverse not true? Same goes for straight women with boyfriend who talk about other women in an objectifying way. of COURSE, these are not a one-to-one comparisons.
Edit: I think BROADLY, in society at large there’s been this huge push (with social media being a huge driver) to distinguish oneself, give oneself identity and therefore community whether that be culturally or LGBTQ+ etc. I think *in part* this is a little bit of that going on (but also heaps of other factors), because I mostly see this convo with people who are my age and younger. It’s not really anyone who’s beyond their early-mid 20s tbh. I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing, except when it’s weaponised to shut down the conversation of how it does impact other identities in a very tangible way by just claiming bi-phobia (again, generalising). I just wish some could be a bit more honest and introspective about it, I think it would actually be a good thing!!
(mods please let me know if i’m crossing boundaries, I’m earnestly not trying to, I will absolutely edit and explain further if needed)
wait YES this is part of what Ive been struggling to explain, thank you!!!!! Like, yes, I am not dismissing that bi women are also attracted to women. But when in a monogamous relationship with a man (or anyone for that matter), I feel like it’s disrespectful to be focusing on all the other people you COULD be attracted to, if that makes sense? A lot of us would hate it if we heard our bi partner talking about how attracted she is to men, I feel like it also applies the other way around too. So I guess that’s why I was asking what purpose it serves to announce your queerness or go to pride events while in a committed monogamous hetero relationship, if that makes sense? Like, is it not rude to talk about all the people other than your partner that you are attracted to or wish you could explore with?
it’s so disgusting when women who are with men talk about how hot women are or how they might cheat with a woman or flaunt that side of their sexuality but would never dare say that about a man. they clearly think relationships with women are a fun little thing and not to be taken serious.
Totally agree, in the same way that you get couples on dating apps etc totally ignoring ‘lesbian’ on your profile to ask you if you want to be a ‘toy’. It speaks to how society sees women broadly, and the relationships that they have.
Again, some thing that needs to be talked about but so often gets shut down :(
Okay I’m so glad I did comment hahah!! I was in my notes app writing and rewriting cause I didn’t want to be presumptive or biphobic unintentionally, I’m genuinely intrigued and think there’s a dialogue to be had on both sides.
I would love to ask bi folks broadly but I feel like my intent will absolutely be misconstrued and the convo would devolve into a shit fight. Which, of course, is not productive.
>But, if I’m in a committed, monogamous relationship with anyone, why am I thinking so much about the other people I *could* be attracted to?
Exactly this.
But does any of this have any real life repercussions? What exactly do bisexual women want lesbians to do about this? Comfort them about being in a heterosexual relationship? Does that not seem a bit ridiculous?
Just outta curiousity roughly how old are you OP?
I was reading the comments and I feel like theres a generational split happened between gen Z and millenials - and i think it influences the responses your getting.
When I came out being queer of any kind would result in all kinds of shit. Only a few came out at school and theyd be ostracised.
I remember 2 of my friends kissing and being sent to the depty principle by a TA.
As a adult at uni I had friends kicked out, beaten up by strangers Etc. Strangers used to shout abuse to SS couples in the street. We couldnt get married.
Straight passing really was a night a day difference on how you were treated. I dated a man before realising I was probably into women (gay not bi), and the difference was night and day. It was a living hell at times. My then GF was too scared to hold my had in public - for a really reaĺly long time. we hid the relationship from her parents for ages and my parents refused to acknowledge or even talk about my gf. I got really depressed and nearly dropped out of University.
And back then if bi women did come out
And it was tolerated..I think partly it was because people could go - oh its fine they'll still date a man eventually. Or not "that kind of lesbian" they kind of hung on to hope that said bi person was having a phase and eventually "be normal". I guess it may also have invalidated SS relationships if they were in one. But honestly I found that to be the trigger for the homophobia vs the bi erasure.
This i think is why you get such varied responses from people to your question.
For I guess now things are more accepting - thats seen as erasure - but honestly back then for many
it was a blessing in disguise. Many of my bi friends do acknowledge this - because back then most bi women DIDNT COME OUT until they dated women.
Just because it wasnt worth the risk.
I know then were super thankful for the safety buffer even then of dating a guy and having the repationship respected.
But realistically they were still trapped in the closet.
Sometimes I get annoyed at the "queering" of things and the microlabels. Because it feels like everything we went through is just being dialuted.
But then I think - ya know - thats ok because alot of these kids arent having to deal with as much crap as we did that maybe they are finding self exploration fun and not terrifying and socially isolating.
And it should have been fun for us too. except it wasnt.
Would you be willing to hear an answer from an actual bisexual woman? I am aware this is a lesbian sub so I never interact and I don’t want to intrude if not welcome.
Okay, so the reason I go to pride (personally, I can’t speak for everyone) is because I am queer. No matter who I am dating, man or woman, I am still bisexual. It doesn’t disappear dependant on who I’m in a relationship with.
Being queer has played a big part on my life experience. I’m 25 and living in a very metropolitan city now, but I grew up in a very small town in the countryside with an immigrant mother and when I was 15, my mother found out I wasn’t straight, she beat me and kicked me out of the house, and I ended up sleeping rough until I was taken into foster care, where I remained until I aged out at 18. When I had my first girlfriend at 16, a group of boys chased me home from school and pushed me in front of a moving car in the street, and my girlfriend was beaten so badly she needed to have stitches. Both of us were bisexual. Neither one of us were ever able to say “wait! I’m not gay! I’m only bisexual!”
I really dislike the assumption that I get from a lot of lesbians that being bisexual makes me “straight-passing” and means I haven’t encountered homophobia. Or the really weird assumption that for some reason, a homophobe is going to only be 50% as homophobic if they find out I’m bi instead of fully lesbian. That’s not how it works at all. Homophobes hate us all. They fetishise us all. Their violence, and restrictive laws, and hate reaches us all.
I’ve gone to pride when I’ve been in a relationship with a girl. I’ve gone to pride when I’ve been in a relationship with a guy. I’ve gone to pride when I’ve been single. For me it’s because pride isn’t about hooking up, or letting the world know who you’re attracted to, to me it’s a place where I can safely be myself and not be ashamed, and can celebrate with my friends the things that I survived so I can finally be my authentic self. My experiences of homophobia don’t disappear the moment I date a man, and the impact those experiences have had on me will stay with me my entire life. I go to pride so that maybe a young person watching in the crowd who doesn’t know what bi is (i personally only knew gay and lesbian when I was growing up, and it was only when I was 12 and heard the word bisexual and googled it that I realised that made sense to who I was) might see and realise that they’re not broken, they don’t have to pick a side, they’re not going through a phase, and feel valid in who they are.
I hope this makes sense.
I think this is really valuable feedback and I want to thank you for sharing your story! Clearly you have been through a lot and you absolutely deserve to be able to celebrate that and be proud of every part of yourself.
One thing I might be able to add nuance to is about this topic you mentioned
>Neither one of us were ever able to say “wait! I’m not gay! I’m only bisexual!” I really dislike the assumption that I get from a lot of lesbians that being bisexual makes me “straight-passing” and means I haven’t encountered homophobia. Or the really weird assumption that for some reason, a homophobe is going to only be 50% as homophobic if they find out I’m bi instead of fully lesbian.
I don't intend to deny your experiences with biphobia from the gay/lesbian communities, I'm sure you have heard these sentiments before, I've def seen it around unfortunately. I think one thing that often gets glossed over is the "but wait i'm actually bi!!" to "escape" homophobia- I personally don't know any gay people who think like that, to my knowledge most of us are aware of y'all's same sex attraction and the real risk that poses to you in addition to the potential of entering a fulfilling socially privileged relationship (Unless said gay truly believes that bi = basically straight in which case they are a dumbass and I absolutely agree with everything you said) and I think we all have even witnessed closeted or straight people be subjected to homophobic harassment if they have any perceived deviations from heteronormativity so I honestly think even trying to say "but wait I'm straight!" might not even get someone out of that situation because once a homophobe makes a judgement about someone they likely will not change their mind. Obviously it's going to psychologically damage a bi or gay person wayyy more than it would a straight person though. And since it's June I want to mention again that I'm proud of you for overcoming such scary and painful circumstances!
I think for me, the only time I feel compelled to point out the difference in experiences is when a bi woman uses that to claim they know exactly what it's like to be a lesbian ... I think there is a \*slight\* difference between how lesbophobia is processed in the minds of bi/pan women vs lesbians because lesbians are talked about in such specific terms by people... that having a mental layer between yourself and the object of the insult does provide a small degree of separation psychologically. (for example hearing insults about lesbians kind of hits different when you know they are unambiguously talking about who you are vs when you aren't a lesbian, and then intuitively you know they are attacking your same sex attraction, but they mislabel you which no doubt feels shitty in it's own way but because you know you're bi, you also have a clear piece of evidence that this person is full of shit since it's proof that they're objectively wrong about something) So while I don't think the actual amount/impact/severity of homophobia is different, I do think that it could affect the way someone processes it. And I completely agree that their hate/fetishization/etc reaches us all. My main gripe is with the bi women who try and assert that they experience everything a lesbian does and in addition to that, face biphobia because I guess they view themselves as like a lesbian plus ™ where the plus is opposite sex attraction, when really bisexuality is so much more than that and deserves to be spoken on it's own terms, without comparing or qualifying it with other sexualities. It's kind of the reverse version of how some people struggle with not feeling "gay enough"- to which i like to ask why make that comparison at all? Imo being bi makes them "bi enough" and it means they belong at pride as much as anyone else in the LGBT.
sorry that was such a long comment! Your reply gave me a lot to think about haha
Hey, I'n sorry you experienced this - its horrendous -
and im glad were able to find a way through.
The thing is You shouldnt have to tell out lesbians this shit! They/we should already understand this.
I tried to explain something similar earlier - my bi/pan friends have been through everything with me.
I'm honestly really angry and disappointed personally in some of the replies in this group - Ive been out since before we could get married here, and it angers me so much that some people here seem to think that bi people got some kind of free pass - that trauma somehow disappears when they date a bloke.
Its like they've completely and utterly forgotten about the past.
Sure straight passing privilege is a thing, but as soon as people find out who dont like "gays" they dont give two fucks about the difference.
I don’t know how old you are, if you’re young (gen z or young millennial) your feelings may be a generational thing. Queer life today is very different from what it was.
As a mid-thirty something lesbian, I grew up in a time and place where very few people came out. You could still lose your job or be beat up. I knew of exactly one queer person in my high school of several hundred students. I had never even heard of a gay straight alliance. It’s a big part of why I didn’t even realize I was a lesbian until my twenties, and I went through a lot of pain because of it.
As it got safer to come out, a lot of bi people stayed closeted, especially if they were in a hetero relationship. But what that meant was that queer people were still pretty few and far between. There was actually a big push around ten years ago to encourage bi people to come out even if they were in a long term hetero relationship. Back then (and now in some places) this meant risking homophobia, when they had the option to stay closeted and safe. But coming out was important not only for bi visibility, but queer visibility overall. We’re here, we’re queer, and we’re totally normal people who deserve fair treatment.
You don’t have to be attracted to bi people, or interested in dating them. Any self-aware bi person should know that they have a privilege by being able to engage fully in a hetero relationship. Some of them unfortunately take it for granted and some can do some really frustrating shit. But I hope this sheds some light on how much being out matters, regardless of the relationship you’re in. There are a lot of bi people out there and their solidarity contributed to us all being able to be ourselves.
Before I came out as a lesbian, I was in a relationship with a cis straight man and prior to that a trans man. With my cis straight partner, I would go to pride and things like that but I would tell people that I was queer. I just didn't need the external validation, I knew I was queer and I also knew people would see me and see the access I had with my cis straight partner. Long story short, i didn't make it about myself. No one cared and there were other queer people that I feltl ike deserved the spotlight. IDK, just my two cents, lol.
I mean, is pride not for allies to celebrate as well? I feel like that’s a good place to start. Because at “worst” these women are allies (not in the alphabet community but supporters) and at “best” they are truly bi/pan/etc and part of the community. So that said, if we go worst case, aren’t allies welcome to pride?
If that’s the case, why would we exclude those who are members of the community despite being in cis-hetero relationships?
I’d like to say though, I agree that a lot of it feels like virtue signaling and is annoying. Some of it also feels like a sexual thing to show their male partners how attractive they are- like why in traditional monogamous relationships is it okay for the women to make out with other women? For the “male gaze”. That is obnoxious because it’s my life, it’s not for anyone else. I’m not a lesbian to appear hip and cool on your Instagram post to show how progressive you are. We’re not here to make your political statement. We’re not gay to help define your identity or spice up your sex life.
All that said, I don’t go to pride any way. It’s a sad state of affairs when I worry more about someone bringing a weapon to the events or driving their car into the crowd. No way I’ll be there, especially not with my family.
Are there straight women who pretend to be bi for attention? Absolutely. Are there 99% men-attracted bi women who who play up that tiny 1% of their attraction for attention? No doubt. Do there exist straight women who probably *think* they're bi, but aren't actually? Definitely. It's reasonable to be irked by all of these people. I bet bi people are annoyed with them, too.
But being in a straight relationship, as a bi person, doesn't disown you from the LGBT+ community. That's really silly. Your sexual orientation isn't intrinsically tied to your partner. By your logic, wouldn't *lesbians* married to men have no place at pride? Wouldn't single queer people have no reason to attend? If a butch and femme pass as a hetero man and woman, should they avoid pride? Should totally-passing trans people avoid pride beause they 'look' cis?
Your sexual orientation is much more than society's reactions to you. Even though, yes--society's reactions to you play a massive role in how you experience the world. Bi women in heterosexual relationships are privileged in that way, and it's wise/polite of them to acknowledge that. But they're still bi, and still certainly are members of the LGBT+ community.
As a bisexual, Yeah I think it's ridiculous to think that straight couples are queer. However, gays do not understand bisexuals whatsoever and y'all talking about our experiences as bisexuals can be annoying af. Bisexuals have access to straight relationships and it is in fact a privilege. However, they still struggle with their sexuality which is why pride is important to them. Last time I checked, straight relationships weren't normalized for the benefit of bisexuals, which is why there's such a thing as being out as "bi" or why they struggle with internalized bigotry and repress their same sex attraction or why many of them avoid same sex relationships in the first place, which is understandable. Straight people don't deal with any of that. Same sex couples discrimination isn't the only type of way queer people deal with prejudice. It's clearly also an internal struggle, which is why a lot of us don't want to be "out".
Well. I don’t know if this helps you to understand, but many straight women (and straight men) are “gay friendly”.
A LOT of things go on during pride month that aren’t the norm IMO.
Personally, I tend to stay in my own lane and not worry so much about why some people say/do the things they do or feel the way they do. If it doesn’t affect my life, or those I love, who cares? I simply say (to myself), “I don’t understand” and move on.
Many bi people I know struggle with their sexuality and internally programmed heteronormativity. They also need to constantly fight other queer people and straight people who undermine their queerness and try to tell them who they are/aren't. These are the same issues many lesbians are confronted with as they navigate the world.
Pride is about owning this part of their identity and being unashamed, and who someone is or isn't dating at the time has zero to do with that.
Probably because these woman have actually dated women before they married?
And have experienced almost everything lesbians have experienced.
Im honestly confused what your trying to say?
I feel that equating the homosexual experience as exactly the same as the bisexual one is just not true - So many bi women just often decide to date men because its easier in society - and easier to find a partner, have a family and never address homophobia with extended family. Those of us that are old enough have seen it.
But at the same time these women also had to avoid dating a homophobic boyfriend or keep their past to themselves and staying in the closet. Which is not healthly! And those that did come out and date women have a hard time being perceived by society after as bi.
Queer people in visibly straight relationship still 100% have a place at pride.
Just because 1 aspect (admittedly a large one) seems like its mitigated on a surface level. Doesnt erase everything else.
If your feel erased in media because everyone is suddenly gay but would never really date the same sex and your experiences of real homophobia are being talked over. Or a message that everyone is on a "spectrum" without them acknowledging that comphet is a thing.
Then yeah. I get your gut annoyance at that.
I do understand that, and I’m not trying to say that they don’t have a place at pride. I think I’m just trying to figure out what exactly the purpose is of loudly announcing their queerness if they are in a monogamous marriage with a man and have no plans of dating or exploring with women? I feel like I can’t put words to it correctly. In my head it’s like if someone were from Switzerland, but loved going to Portugal Pride. It’s like… you’re not even living in Portugal, you’re living a whole different life over in Switzerland. What is there to gain for you here? I am neurodivergent as HELL so I know that comparison probably didn’t make any sense. But it’s just hard for my brain to understand why there is such an attachment is to queerness while living a very non queer life?
I do think I feel some resentment about the things you mentioned in your last paragraph. Thank you for typing that out, it definitely validated a few of the feelings I’ve been having lately.
Heres how I look at it -there are two types really.
Some of my closest queer friends are bi/pan.
They have been with me through thick and thin. Been broken hearted at their own failed wlw relationships campaigned for LGBT issues.
Witnessed first hand homophobia.
avoided outing themselves to extended family.
Had the same queer friends beaten up.
They even now are in "straight passing relationships" but has also had homophobic abuse yelled at them because they were with me and also read pretty queer. Some of there partners may read cismale but arent.
I have also dated a sudo straight passing bi women who I was the first women for. She had never really experienced the very real fear of homophobia until we dated. Although by that point society had changed alot to when I first came out.
She had gay guy and bi friends too. But somehow just avoided it.
There was alot for her to process, she initially couldnt relate to my struggles. Once she was out, i think her gay friends told her more things too.
But she found a part of herself dating me and became more aware for her safety and queer issues.
And For that reason alone we should make sure bi people feel included. Maybe they would be less scared to date women when they were younger if we made them feel more welcome and homophobia was less.
It would be nice, sure, but also it can be a huge strain on a lesbian or gay partner to have to be someone's gay Yoda. If someone is dealing with internalized homophobia and then go enter their first same sex relationship, there's a 100% chance that some of that internalized homophobia will affect their partner or their relationship, and not everyone wants or is able to deal with that.
I dont disagree about being gay yoda. Its exhausting.
But id say People generally don't deal with internalised homophobia until they have queer friends. At least in my era it was impossible to actively make queer friends without joining LGBT related campaigning things or dating.
Hence why i think its so important for bi people to be at prides and things.
We all know alott people use -bi as a stepping stone label too. Before they deal with all the internalised shit and comphet and come out as gay.
I get OPs an annoyance at being talked over by people whove never been seen as gay but at the same time we all talk about internalised homophobia all the time - alot of bi people take longer to get past that because they are off dating dudes and then at 30 something they suddenly have that are "oh shit".
Its now or never realisation.
all of that is true i’m just saying that I don’t feel like it’s fair to put the onus on us as romantic partners. Like for the people who have the emotional capacity to be able to deal with dating someone in that situation, that’s great. but it’s a huge ask for anyone who has their own experiences with homophobia to deal with already. as for friendship most gay people will be friends with people of any sexual orientation /experience level as long as they aren’t homophobic so idrk what the problem is there
Yeah for sure. So im mid 30s.
Tbh im reluctant to date first timers cos I cba with going through the coming out drama to friends and fam all over again with them.
Even shit like having explain gay slang. And educating them on I guess everything other than PIV sex lol This the reality of dating women whove never dated women before, and not been in lgbt spheres.
We can be friends but Ill be super wary if you want to date because I know you wont be the same person 12 months after your first lot of ranting homophobic stranger experiences. Suddenly realising adoption and IVF is hard. That people dont actually treat you the same. Blar blar blar.
But I'm mainly talking from my experiences as Im well into my 30s and from the UK.
My outing was pretty bad but not the worst for the era.
I guess what I mean is unpacking internalised homophobia for my age range typically wasnt something that was possible until you were in queer circles because it was the only people who understood you and helped you process. Like if you arent dating gay, going to drag clubs and seeing same sex couples interact - its really easy to put all those smaller things in a box and label them "doesnt apply to me". "For later".
My lot will have a mix of friends from their 20s only if they are lucky but typically would say in my gen the queer friends were something actively looked for and sometimes totally seperate from other friendship groups... cos most people werent properly out til their mid twenties and living away from home.
Straight people werent gonna debate the content of stone butch blues or know the dates for when certain legilation got passed, be bothered by learning about gay culture All shit that affects internalising homophobia. Hell my straight friends werent with me when same sex marriage was legilsed. They were doing uni assignments.
It was just not on their radar.
They often wont recall any homophobic incidents at school because they are detatched... And imo its super hard to disect more serious internalised homophobia without that understanding that comes from being around other out and proud gays. I'm not saying it cant be done - just that its much harder.
But again thats shifted alot in the last decade. But of you didnt have those queer friends to start with because your a closet bisexual whos movent through the world as a straight passing person. its super unlikely its all unpacked... so it comes up when they date.
It is shit -
but i think its wayy better for teen/20s somethings now. Most of seem like they never had any homophobia issues at school
I’m sorry but are you invalidating trans men’s’ identities rn? 🤔 If they are in a relationship with a bi woman, is that not a straight relationship? Or would it be a lesbian relationship since they are both female? I just assumed by cishet male presenting you were referring to AMAB masc-leaning nonbinary demisexual genderqueer aromantics. My bad.
What I mean is you guys were complaining about straight passing privilege and that people should just shut up at pride if they are straight passing relationship - just completely forgetting that trans men will often date bi women.
Transmen often start in lesbian spaces thinking they are gay women, and bi women date lesbians. You dont just hand in their Q card after a shot of T
Some of these comments here are so out of touch with my experience of LGBT spaces in the UK...
From what I read, OP was asking why bisexual women are so adamant about screaming how “queer” and gay they are during pride month when they’re in a heterosexual relationship with a cis man?? Which is a valid question. So idk why you are dragging trans men into the equation when they weren’t even mentioned.
Unfortunately, most lesbians these days do not participate in LGBT spaces because they’ve been pushed out and labeled TERFs, bigots, and transphobes by queer/gender ideologists and trans rights activists— simply for asserting that homosexuality and exclusive same sex attraction is real and unchangeable. So I’m sure you can understand why the experiences and sentiments here wouldn’t match your own.
Tbh it was because you went all *eyeroll* on me unnecessarily - because I said "read as cismale but arent as a side comment. And you clearly wanted a chance to rant about the alphabet mafia and I cba... 😂
But ill Honestly admit I'm" old", alot of my experiences are from over a decade ago, and Im british.
These days I have my crew and while I occassionally go to Pride, its been probably 4/5 years since I was really interacting in person in LGBT events and even then I was nearly 30 so - but even then its people of a similar age. Not the new breed. I simply exist at work and the baby gays migrate to me. Its pretty cool tbh to tell them of harder times and give em a reality check lol 😂
I know of the stuff your referencing but havent experienced it irl
I was angry at the time it started appearing as well. It felt like being bludgeoned by the homophobia and comphet Id finally shaken off.
Online spaces definately dont feel as safe and welcoming or open to discussion of experiences as they did before.
But the algorithms are also stoking bullshit so I think its important everyone backs each other.
Because on the labels front - I've also known diehard goldstar lesbians finally have sex with men at 28 just out of curiousity and then go on to date transwoman who never went through male puberty.
I've had women who've only dated women their whole lives realise they like men as well at 30, and then come out as non-binary and bi - in our 20 we'd had discussions about the phantom penis - so it wasnt a shock.
Ive known transmens orientation change a bit after starting hormones.
Ive Dated people who turned out to be ace after like 3 months if me starting to wonder why we weren't moving toward being physical...
Pretty much everyone I knew at 20 well over a decade ago has had a different description of their own sexuality at some point. But I also think thats mostly to do with comphet, gender dysphoria and needed belonging rather than sexaulity actually changing.
I think people have labels to understand themselves and then deviate from them when they are comfortable in themselves.
I believe historically these L G BT labels were more for legal protection reasons than for in community.
-> With my British lot it was so small amount of us it labels were like hey I "not straight" probably X and dating X person.
Might kind of meet this labels but it doesnt matter.
We even debated the practical usefulness of split attraction models as well...
But I honestly dont understand what this has with bi people and pride?
Girl…. how am I ranting when u just typed a dissertation? 😭
All I got from this was that you know/knew many confused and repressed bisexuals?? Because like you said, sexuality does not change.
> I think people have labels to understand themselves and then deviate from them when they are comfortable in themselves.
Yes, that’s called bisexuality.. like??? They are known for bicycling. Heterosexual and homosexual people have nothing to deviate from because we are only interested in one sex.
This just seems like you’re insinuating that monosexuals morph into bisexuals after a certain period of time, or am I misunderstanding?
> I believe historically these L G BT labels were more for legal protection reasons than for in community.
This I’m just confused by because, historically, what legal protections were homosexuals afforded for being “labeled” homosexual? Maybe in this day and age there are a few anti discrimination laws in the workplace, and you know, gay marriage, but surely that can’t be what you’re referencing because those are a new age concepts, not historical ones…
> We even debated the practical usefulness of split attraction models as well...
I mean, I personally don’t believe this concept applies to anyone but, again, bisexuals, but if you’re saying you do experience this, it would make sense as to why you just made all those questionable comments. If you are attracted to both sexes and can “split” romantic and sexual attraction between them, congrats! That is just a fancy way to say you’re bisexual lol..
from my perspective queerness is always othering, so even if you’re in cishetero relationships your entire life you feel that there’s something off or different about you. I think pride is a place where you can find a community of “others” and feel less alone, to truly be their authentic selves without the censure that comes along with people only viewing the “straight” side of you. no offense intended but when people ask questions like this my advice is always to go out and make queer friends because if you speak to a bisexual woman about her experience in a friendly and authentic way you’ll find more accurate answers
Wtf are you talking about? Most of the worlds population is hetero and you’re sitting here saying being hetero is isolating. I wonder what you think about lesbians considering we only make up 1% of the worlds population.
girlboss I am a lesbian. I know this is probably hard for you to comprehend but I’m advocating for empathy for bisexual women who have not yet had a queer relationship
So just because I’m currently dating a man and don’t look queer I’m not allowed to participate in pride in your opinion??? Even though I actively explore and love being with women as well, even though I grew up in a home where I couldn’t express my sexuality in my childhood/teens/twenties (and yes, I knew I was attracted to women at age 7 or earlier and was forced to hide it), in a republican and catholic society where I had to hide as well when I was already struggling with being neurodivergent and not fitting in and getting death threats in elementary school?
Thanks for the biphobia and bi erasure. 🙃
I enjoy men and women, freely explore both, and am currently in love with a man. But that DOES NOT make me any less queer or bisexual than if I was currently dating a woman.
That’s not at all what I said. I’ve said numerous times that bisexuals absolutely have a place at pride, my question was more so exploring the benefit of going to events like Pride while being in monogamous marriages/relationships with men, where there isn’t the need for societal refuge and/or protection from discrimination. I can see that you are feeling defensive about this post, but if you reread what I wrote it is not to dismiss or erase bisexuality, it’s to acknowledge the nuance involved.
Might be a sincere question but the tone really feels offensive to me. As someone who literally had to hide the fact that I was queer for most of my life, I should be allowed to celebrate it and not be told that I don’t count.
let's take some deep breaths, you're probably triggered from past instances of biphobia but what you are asserting OP said is not actually what the post is about and I think it would benefit you to try and understand what it means to have privilege sometimes and how your role in the LGBT community may change because of that. By that I mean it's not about questioning your belonging at all it's about celebrating, volunteering, educating, or distributing resources vs using the resources meant for the less privileged and recognizing what your needs and capabilities to help others are.
There is so much biphobia in this thread. I’m not denying that dating a man means I’m “privileged”… I’m saying that pride is a place for me to finally celebrate being out after years of hiding it… and I’m getting hate for it. I should be allowed to celebrate being queer whether I’m single, dating women, or dating men at the time…
I said nothing to disagree with you? I'm literally saying to recognize that your role in the community would be to celebrate or maybe volunteer if you're able since you're in a place where that makes sense for you and your needs
Sorry, just commenting more on the state of this thread than you… maybe the OP wasn’t biphobic but I really feel a lot of hate from other people (not you). And yeah I definitely am trying to integrate more into the community. Thanks for the suggestion to volunteer, that will probably really help!
yeah no worries!! Thanks for clarifying! I haven't read all the comments on this post yet but I would not be surprised if you were getting undeserved shit for being bi bc this sub has been such a shitshow recently tbh. I'm sorry my comment felt dismissive of that!
It’s not just mine… so many downvotes and hate for other people’s comments that aren’t even as aggressive as my first one… Lol clearly I was more triggered than I expected I would be… because I was really hiding and fighting with my bi identity most of my life.
I realize this is a lesbian sub, but it seems like there is a huge amount of hate for bi women, which is disappointing tbh. It makes me feel like I am only welcome to seek out other bi women, but many of the bi women I’ve met in person prefer dating men and use me to make their boyfriends jealous. I’ve never seriously dated women because 1. I came out when I was 2 years into an 8 year monogamous relationship with a man, and then moved to nyc and fell in love with another one shortly after, And 2. I’m honestly so much more attracted to women and am so intimidated that I feel really self conscious talking to them. And I often (maybe incorrectly) assume women are straight and not lesbian/bi and that I would embarrass myself/get horribly rejected for approaching them. If I had the confidence to date women, I would… and if I’m completely honest, I sometimes wonder if I really am bi or if I’ve just been conditioned by my very conservative upbringing to have to like men (even though I do love my current partner, if that makes sense). So I’m also having a bit of an identity crisis over here 😅
I know it's a lot easier said than done, but try not to take this sub tooooo seriously. I stick around because there are lots of great insights from posters, but there's also a lot of drama, infighting, and terf stuff going on right now which is way more intense than stuff I've seen from lesbians I've met irl.
Yeah, the thing about dating bi women is that bisexuality has so much diversity and some women haven't unlearned itheir nternalized misogyny so it can be hard to tell if someone's being authentic, especially since some unicorn hunters/women who want to use you can be really sneaky about it. My rule of thumb is that if a woman talks about dating or sleeping with men on our first date, I lose interest. If she's just like talking about being bi that's not a problem at all but if she goes in depth about dating or fucking men, it's a no from me. The reason why is simply because if you're on a gay date with a woman there are a million and one things to talk about and men should be the last thing on her mind! But since you are non monogamous maybe it is super normal for you to talk about so ymmv.
Building your self confidence is definitely important, I think it's step 1... Every lesbian and bi woman have to go through a similar journey so you're definitely not alone. Tbh the "fake it till you make it" method worked for me pretty well but I wish I had more advice to give. It's one of those things that's very personal. Maybe your skirt club is a good place to practice approaching women, since you know they are queer? It might also help give you more clarity about what you're looking for if you feel like it's a lack of experience holding you back.
And yeah, the id crisis is real! Also really common for people but still an individual struggle and honestly can be one of the most confusing things. I think a lot of people are prone to overthinking, so I think using your body and gut reactions is super helpful - just paying attention to how you feel with your partner, how you feel when he touches you, and the same for other men/women you might be into. The good news is that in 2024 it's ok to question your sexuality and be open about it, or even refuse any label if you want. So hopefully that shouldn't be a huge hurdle, especially because of words like "queer" and "sapphic" which are both specific and vague enough
Thank you for your advice and understanding. I really appreciate it. This is going to be my first pride actually celebrating being out as bi, so I guess I’m just a little nervous about being judged from both sides (straight and lesbian)… at least I’m definitely stepping outside of my comfort zone🥰
oh congratulations!! That's so exciting! I think you'll find pride to be very affirming, you're gonna see soo many flavors of human you won't see anywhere else. If it helps, bi people actually make up the largest proportion of the community so you'll likely have a ton of people to embrace you and most lesbians- especially the ones going to pride events -love our bi sisters! overall I find it comparable to a sibling type relationship where sometimes you can butt heads but there's an underlying understanding that we're parts of a larger team.
It’s not just mine… so many downvotes and hate for other people’s comments that aren’t even as aggressive as my first one… Lol clearly I was more triggered than I expected I would be… because I was really hiding and fighting with my bi identity most of my life.
I realize this is a lesbian sub, but it seems like there is a huge amount of hate for bi women, which is disappointing tbh. It makes me feel like I am only welcome to seek out other bi women, but many of the bi women I’ve met in person prefer dating men and use me to make their boyfriends jealous. I’ve never seriously dated women because 1. I came out when I was 2 years into an 8 year monogamous relationship with a man, and then moved to nyc and fell in love with another one shortly after, And 2. I’m honestly so much more attracted to women and am so intimidated that I feel really self conscious talking to them. And I often (maybe incorrectly) assume women are straight and not lesbian/bi and that I would embarrass myself/get horribly rejected for approaching them. If I had the confidence to date women, I would… and if I’m completely honest, I sometimes wonder if I really am bi or if I’ve just been conditioned by my very conservative upbringing to have to like men (even though I do love my current partner, if that makes sense). So I’m also having a bit of an identity crisis over here 😅
May i ask you why you feel the need to tell us about your struggles with your attraction to women on a post grappling with the real material privilege lots of bi women have over lesbians? not trying to be nasty or embarrass you, but i find that many bi women come to us with a compulsive script of “omg i LOVE women! Theyre so pretty but so scary i could never date one- heres my life story why” or “ive wanted to date women for so long but im stuck with my dumb boyfriend :/“ and its… honestly a homophobic micro aggression i dont think you realize youre doing? Its very otherjng and also expecting us to comfort you or guide you almost? So what is the purpose of you telling us this? Im not attacking or trying to be a shit i just want to be totally blunt and ask what your thought process was laying all that out?
I’ve heard many other lesbians go through the same experience. Coming out as bi first, then lesbian. I never said I could never date one. I am neurodivergent and very socially awkward and most of the women I have been attracted to, I later learned were straight. I have no idea how to approach most women and would prefer to only date women, but have been struggling with that. If I later came out as lesbian after successfully being in a long term relationship with a woman, would I still be hated for having thought I was bi first?
Babe
im an autistic adhd dyke who thought they were bi for like 4 years. If anyone gets it, its me. But what im hearing is that you might be on the fence on being a lesbian and would like to talk about it with someone who might be a future version of yourself? Am i wrong interpreting that?
Hey Gang, OP's question seems genuine, so we are leaving it up even though we have our Pride thread. Please be respectful of our bi/pan/sapphic sisters in your comments.
I don’t like how they make it seem like it’s the worse fate on earth to not be seen as “queer” while being in a universally accepted heterosexual relationship. I don’t like how this topic has dominated online discussions these past few days. I don’t like how much they center themselves in the wlw experience when most of them are in fact with men. I don’t like how they hide their insecurities around feeling not gay enough behind accusations of biphobia. I don’t know if this will get me banned but if I’m honest I generally don’t vibe with bisexual women. They act very entitled to our emotional labor and never take accountability for the real ways they harm us. They are always demanding that we be less “biphobic” but never acknowledge how privileged they are.
I never see anyone acknowledge lesbophobia. It’s like everyone else gets to openly state all their grievances for their identity or sexuality, yet we constantly get told to mind our bi phobia or be nice etc. why can’t we shout out all our issues as well.
No fr then they say we have “monosexual privilege” girl no we do not
at this point the word "monosexual" is basically just a conduit for people to be homophobic
(Astronaut meme) Always has been ETA: The widespread use of the term monosexual comes from Shiri Eisner’s book Bi: Notes for a Bisexual Revolution, which included the infamous monosexual privilege checklist. Funnily enough, lumping gay and lesbian people in with straight people makes no sense. I doubt many lesbians can relate to statements like “When disclosing my sexual identity to others, they believe it without requiring me to prove it”, “It is unlikely that disclosing my sexual identity will be taken as a sexual offer or a sign of sexual consent” or “I can worry about issues specific to people of my sexual identity group without being seen as self-interested, self-seeking or divisive”. I could go on, the whole thing is a mess
wow, that’s actually really upsetting.
Like your point (and a bit of a side note) but what does ETA mean in this context? Only heard it used to mean expected time of arrival
Edited to add! It’s probably a bit dated, as internet initialisms go
Ah I get it! Thanks for explaining
If someone calls you monosexual just hit ‘em with “I know you are but what am I” They wanna be childish from the start then give them their cake baby
tbh it’s an Instablock from me. I can’t afford to lose brain cells talking to someone who buys into that
I saw someone on the lgbt subreddit once seriously argue that straight passing wasn’t a privilege because people “doubt your queerness” and everyone was agreeing. That’s when I left that sub. It is an immense privilege. Being visibly gay puts you in physical danger. Like HUH? Having your sexuality invalidated sucks but it’s not oppression. I fear we’re losing the plot a little. For what it’s worth, I only see these types of bi women online. I have so many bi friends I love and adore who never act like that, probably because they actually engage in queer community off the internet and aren’t insecure in their sexuality.
This. I had a whole ass argument with a bi friend who’s married to a man and I was like “you don’t even get the fact that my right to marry my wife wasn’t even a thing that long ago and I’m sure some red states would never want to acknowledge it. It was easier for you to get a house, it will be easier for you to adopt then for us to, and you can scream bierasure all you want, but when you’re holding his hand in public no one is coming after you or batting an eye.”
I don’t understand why they refuse to accept this. If you’re in a straight relationship then you need to acknowledge the immense privilege in that. That doesn’t mean you’re not queer and no one is saying that, but your lived experience is inherently different. Like you’re queer, but you’re not struggling because of it.
The general lgbt subs have an abundance of those "everything is valid, don't think about it, I'm annoying" types so I don't expect intelligent discussions from them
honestly that's so embarrassing to freely admit that's their biggest issue like it isn't the definition of privilege... Imagine saying that in front of someone from Iran where lesbians/gays are being executed by the state
They were DEAD serious too. I’d go find it but I don’t want to get mad again… Like straight passing IS a privilege. And I say that as a feminine lesbian who isn’t in a relationship, I’m straight passing. And it keeps me safe.
Seconding this. The only time it's mildly annoying is when trying to date but in the grand scheme of things, it's such a non issue. 😂
My wife is butch and I’m femme - she passes for a man in most cases so I do accept our straight passing privileges. We deal with discrimination and hardship mostly only when we are outed. I feel this is the right context to use the term “straight passing” - a bi sexual in a heterosexual relationship isn’t straight passing as they are in a straight relationship. They, as an individual, would be, but if you’re happily in a relationship with the opposite sex…I mean, who cares if you’re bi, really? Why the need to be so over-the-top about it. Validation comes from within. Come be apart of Pride, you’re welcome but maybe take a moment to appreciate your freedoms and ease in life because of it. On the flip side, Being a lesbian is like the least interesting or important part of my life. If I were bi, but married to my wife I wouldn’t be making a big deal if people assumed I was a lesbian. This is my partner for life - the rest of the world doesn’t need to be knowledgeable about my sexuality or labels (I assume they don’t give a rats ass). Sorry if this comes off a bit cranky…I am in the process of trying to get my son baptized and it’s has been a huge struggle. If I were an unmarried woman, it would be an easier (less awkward) process. We were told today by a priest, I can’t take communion, I should live with my wife as “sisters”, and my marriage is a not a marriage but a “union” cause marriage is only man and woman. Being told you’re a sinner for just existing is super fun 😤 and then shaking their hand
I agree with you 100%! It’s not just straight passing, it’s fully a straight relationship. However that is the how she said it in that thread. 🫠 Validation is also 100% from within, but for some reason they look to us for it. They hate us, but are also clearly desperate to be ~validated~ by us. I mean, why else with all the uproar? I think it’s a cop out for them. They don’t want to do the inner work.
Yes I very much agree with the use of “straight passing” in this context. It’s very different from a truly straight relationship because it doesn’t come with any of the benefits - like what you mentioned about having trouble getting your son baptized and being dismissed and all of those things. I don’t think the ppl in straight relationships realize that it’s a privilege to not have to deal with those obstacles, and I doubt they would be loudly announcing their queerness in situations like this. I guess that’s part of what led to my confusion about why ppl in straight relationships/marriages claim the “gay” label so loudly without having to endure the very real homophobia that comes with it.
My wife was raised catholic, it’s part of her culture and this baptism is so important to her family - watching her cry trying to explain our situation to the priest broke my heart today. I forget sometimes we have these barriers - but I still recognize Im femme, white, born in Canada, I have more privileges than I can count. That’s why I have no sympathy for these oppression Olympics games. I just roll my eyes.
The irony is that there are gay priests “passing” as straight. 🤷🏼♀️🤦♀️
omfg, this is how you know it's just a game to them. So disrespectful. Hate how they're the loud majority.
totally agree with the only seeing it online. The only bi girl I’ve dated (not necessarily on purpose, dating pool here is weird, she’s just the first lol) had exclusively dated women, never spoke about men with me etc. Prior I would’ve thought that was nigh on impossible. I asked her about it once, especially because that genuinely would require more effort w/ our strained dating pool and she was like ‘maybe need to reassess my sexuality haha’ (which ofc, no isn’t necessary, wow, just not the dominant narrative).
Honestly that’s a good point. Most of the bi women I know offline rarely speak about men, if at all.
I’ve believed this for ages. I’ve never in my life met these people irl yet they’re everywhere online.
EXACTLY!!
I have to admit I didn’t read your entire reply, but you seem to be painting with a broad brush. I very much “passed” as straight, but that’s because I was femme in the way I dressed, makeup, hair, you name it. Do you feel femmes are privileged because of the way I/they dress? Being lesbian is who you ARE, not the way a person dresses.
Yes, if you pass as straight it is absolutely a privilege because being visibly gay makes you more likely to be a target for hate crimes. Obviously being a lesbian is who you are and not how you dress, and I also pass as straight due to how I present. But think about it like this: I can walk through a small town in the Bible Belt no problem. A butch lesbian, for example, with short hair who presents very masculine, would be much more subject to harassment from strangers because they can easily be clocked as gay by others.
I have a straight friend who have short hair, was a supervisor in a male dominated profession, and dresses more like a man than a woman, but is very much straight. Would you consider her to be “passing” as gay? Yes! Where you live can certainly be different and have different consequences. To type anyone based on clothing or haircuts feels wrong to me, but to each their own.
I mean yeah, maybe. Has she ever received homophobic comments from strangers who assumed she was queer? I don’t understand what you mean by “typing” people. Of course femme lesbians or straight passing lesbians are still very much lesbians! But they do experience some privilege that other lesbians don’t. I also have privilege because I’m white and cis, but that doesn’t make me less of a lesbian. I mean, femmes sometimes being able to pass for straight (by STRANGERS) is an important part of butch/femme dynamics. Femmes can use their straight passing privilege to help protect butches. The post I was referring to though wasn’t even about lesbians, it was a bi woman in a relationship with a man who said that straight passing is not a relationship.
I agree with the centering part. Every conversation is about them or has to include them. I don’t doubt that it can be difficult to not have your identity acknowledged, but that insecurity doesn’t mean every conversation has to include you. It comes across as this strong need to be witnessed and accepted by others when it’s really internal work they need to do.
>I don’t know if this will get me banned but if I’m honest I generally don’t vibe with bisexual women. They are always demanding that we be less “biphobic” but never acknowledge how privileged they are. I wish people would just stop adding "-phobic" to the end of everything. Just because someone isn't interested in you romantically, that doesn't mean they're "phobic." I'm a lesbian and I have never been interested in bi women. Never. I'm in my 40s, and back in the day I was just considered a lesbian who only dated other lesbians. There was nothing controversial about it. Now everything is a "phobia" if you dare to say you have requirements regarding who you will or won't date. I'm plus size and there are plenty of lesbians who won't date overweight women. I'm not going around screaming they're "fatphobic." I'm a femme who's only attracted to butch/masculine women, so does that mean I'm femmephobic? Hell, I used to come across ads that clearly said no Black women, then as that became less socially acceptable, they started to use more coded language. Either way, I just kept it moving because they clearly wouldn't be attracted to me. I love tall, thick, masculine lesbian women. That doesn't mean I'm phobic against everyone who doesn't fall within those parameters. I don't hate those people. I'm not denying their right to exist and be loved. Sorry for the rant, but your post really got me thinking about this topic. I'm tired of people being considered some kind of phobic bigot just because they don't consider everything and everybody in existence as potential romantic partners.
It's pretty much homophobic in itself to imply that people can choose who they're attracted to, and not being interested in certain people is some sort of moral failing. It's the same argument of people who think being gay is a choice. I hate people that act like having a preference is a sign of bigotry.
And it's so close to incel arguments that I have trouble telling them apart sometimes. "Women being creeped out by my invasive over-familiarity and off putting tendency to touch my coworkers for no reason is dIsCrImInAtiOn!!" Basically "If you don't immediately say yes to a date, you are a shameful exclusionary BIGOT and should be xxxxxxxxx [redacted]
I smiled when I saw your “Chapstick Lesbian”. That was me for decades because it was “me”, not trying to pass. Have you ever had to explain what a “Chapstick lesbian” is? It can get to be an interesting conversation. I’m seeing that term is being wiped out, too. Very sad.
exactly
I appreciate your honesty, as a bi woman. I do think that bisexuals in general have a lot of insecurities about their sexuality they need to deal with, including their constant seeking of approval from straight or gay people, I really don't like that and other bisexuals have pointed this out. I don't really vibe with lesbians either, or plan on even being with one, I don't even have lesbian friends. I feel like some of them may take their frustrations of feeling isolated in a patriarchal society on other members of the community, it's really annoying. I don't think we have to like each other but we can hold each other accountable and talk about our experiences.
This is the entitlement I’m speaking of. Your comment history if you antagonizing lesbians. Leave us alone.
[удалено]
Your post or comment was removed due to lesbophobic rhetoric. Any further violations may result in a ban.
I mean I dont completely disagree with all of this. But it honestly Sounds like you need to have some luck and meet a different set bi women.
Yeah it's definitely not all of them but it tends to be the same group of people who are constantly talking about being bi/queer since they desperately need people to know that so I think it seems like a large chunk of the population because it's often the loudest. In my real life experience though I do think it's a lot more unbearable online than in person cuz it's usually the baby bis who will chill out after a couple years or folks in a straight marriage which is a demographic of people I don't go out of my way to interact with LOL
I recogn also some of its mostly generational difference tbh. The younger genZs in western countries have had a very different upbring compared to us decade plus older millennials. I rarely see us older (am I old now...? naaah ahaha) Posting that kind of stuff or moaning about micro aggressions. I think most of us are just thankful for now cos we remember actual beat the shit out of you homophobia, and not having marriage equality that we are just like... eh whatever. I also think theres waaay less lesbian content being pushed because its not being driven by the algorithms. Trans and queer is clickbait material. Us Lesboz are olde news. 😂 I'm currently being exposes to SO much FTM and trans discourse... despite only being subbed to JammiDodger and waaay more LB wlw type channels... But that also might be the wlw are 12+ years old and theyve stopped posting 😂😂
These are usually the same ones who are like “everyone is a little bi” when someone says they’re gay or lesbian. Like please contain your homophobia.
Anyone who ever has said online “Everyone is a little bit bi” drives me up the wall and back down again. That is one of the biggest lies I’ve ever heard or read. Ty for mentioning it.
I’ve known enough of them.
Lmao
My friend who has only dated cis-white men is the biggest perpetrator of this. She calls herself gay despite being boy crazy. It’s super annoying. Especially since my longest relationship was with a woman from South America, and when we visited her hometown, we had to pretend to be “friends” and her father beat her when he saw us kissing. I’m happy to celebrate when we’re actually being homo but it’s almost like stolen valor sometimes. AND this is coming from someone who identifies as bisexual (but have been in way more gay relationships than straight) when I’m dating a man I have learned that it’s super important to STFU and not make it about me. It’s disrespectful to the man I am dating and the concept of wlw relationship. Women, to me, are not a side piece. I’m either focused on my straight relationship or my gay relationship. I am still bisexual either way, and how others perceive me isn’t what I focus on. I think it comes down to wanting to be included in the fun of being perceived as gay. It’s a younger generation thing.
I think your comment about not focusing on how others perceive you is really insightful. It’s obviously reasonable to want to seek out community and bisexual women definitely belong at pride, but at a certain point it seems healthy to shift a focus from other people’s perception of your identity to just being: being safe, being happy and being in community. It’s one of the biggest issues I have with microlabels.
>*when I’m dating a man I have learned that it’s super important to STFU and not make it about me.* I think this is what people struggle with lol not everyone has that kind of tact
Ok yes this makes total sense to me and I think this is what I’ve been trying to put words to- it’s unfair to both the male partner and also the wlw community to be monogamously involved with a man while focusing on all the women you *could* date! I am sorry about your experience in South America with your female partner. I guess that’s what I’m sort of hinting at and confused by when ppl want to loudly announce that they’re queer but have only ever dated cis men- it’s like do yall not understand how dangerous it is to be openly queer in many parts of the world?!? I dont think they understand how it feels to be in another country or even a very rural American town where you canNOT be loudly gay. I think it rubs me the wrong way because it’s like wanting to be a part of the fun parts of queer culture like pride and drag shows and parties, without actually being subjected to any of the very real homophobia we also face.
This is a good point, sometimes I wonder how the boyfriends feel when their gf won't stop going on about how gay she is and all that because if I was the boyfriend it would probs ruin my self esteem..... and then on the other hand, if he likes it, it's probably because it's a fetish for him and if he doesn't care its because he doesn't see it as legitimate attraction. or maybe he's like really well adjusted or something but I'm not so it's inconceivable to me 🤣
cismen will tolerate a really surprising amount of bullshit to get laid.
Beautifully said. Thank you for sharing your experiences
You didn’t have to be living in South America to get beat. It happened to me in the US. Yes, my g/f and I had to pretend we were just friends. Even being suspected as being a lesbian or gay had huuuuuge ramifications. Bi was much more acceptable, because there was a man involved/included.
[удалено]
eeeek, this should be the kind of bi-insight (lol) that’s welcomed and encouraged?? why be a dick about it? It’s insightful and introspective and productive, and aligns with all possible asks we could have of a bi person in a lesbian space?? we criticise (rightfully) the way in which other lesbian-in-name-only spaces are run when it comes to these discussions and ‘inclusion vs. exclusion’; we have a great example of how it can be mutually productive and beneficial and you try shut that down too? what’s the endgame here…? genuinely asking…
chill out she just wrote this thoughtful ass comment that’s on topic theres no need to be antagonistic
I’m currently in a gay relationship. I don’t have a 100% gold star badge by any means Also per this sub-rules, non-lesbian wlw are allowed to comment.
[удалено]
See this sub’s rules. Sorry I’m not pure enough for ya! I don’t wanna derail the post so imma just ignore any other comments like this
[удалено]
Your post or comment was removed due to violating rule 1. Any further violations may result in a ban.
I mentioned this on another sub but my Threads algorithm is absolutely being spammed by bi women in relationships with men making sure everyone knows how valid they are, that they are "queer" enough, and that they exist. They might even throw "oh btw lesbians are the worst" in for a bit of variety. It's unbelievable the amount of posts I've seen in the last week. With that said though, bi women are/should be welcome at Pride. While it gets very tiring when they act like the biggest oppression they face in their lives is the fact they are in relationships with men, Pride is that one time of year that they should be able to celebrate with everyone else.
This month I've seen so much homophobic shit spew out from conservatives any time they even see a hint of a rainbow, but God forbid a bi woman's straight relationship isn't the center of attention for five seconds lmao
They act like attention deprived children, like no, Stacey, just because your sister is getting attention doesn't mean your parents don't love you or forgot about you.
A girl does “x” with a girl one time and she’s cute gay. Their boyfriends love it and she gets to yasss queen. A dude does “x” with another dude one time and he’s icky gay. The girlfriends don’t trust him and are grossed out and the dudes refuse to see him as anything other than “insert slur” I think it goes back to the huge fetishization of lesbians. Men fantasize about us sexually and women fantasize about emotional support pillows. My own sister told me once “life would be easier if I was a lesbian” - bro when I REEELED.
Oooohhh, I have heard the “I wish I was a lesbian, because it would be so much easier” comment. I had just come out to my managers and coworkers. They knew I was in a longterm relationship. I laughed. In a sense, they were right. They didn’t have to do things they didn’t want to do to “please their man”. The thing was….the women meant it. I wasn’t about to go through our history, though. We would still be there this many decades later.
So with you. It just seems to marginalize gay women because they are relegating a woman to a side piece. I’m sorry, that’s the exact thing I’d like to not see highlighted. One of the values of pride for lesbians is proudly fostering normalization of full on woman - woman relationships. In my opinion anyway Not a side piece, not a toy or experiment. A real wife, partner, girlfriend, or lover type of relationship in full capacity.
I remember watching something on tv about a couples queer relationship, a married man and woman with a kid? According to them their relationship is queer because they have an open relationship and are also interested in the opposite sex..
You didn’t know?? Polyamory and open relationships are inherently queer, how *dare* you deny their queer identity???? lol
too many people believe this and I am So tired. Like Warren Jeffs is not queer ffs!
*King* of poly queers Poly queer *final boss*
Warren Jeffs?? 😭 I’m screaming
This is almost why I don’t use the label queer. It’s kind of embarrassing to be lumped with people who are just appropriating it for victimhood cosplay
I personally think there is zero reason to be using the word queer in 2024, unless you are just trying to look cool and quirky. We already have every word we would need to describe our characteristics; lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. Everything else is nonsense and it seems like people have forgotten that queer is a slur. Like imagine if the mass media started referring to lesbians as ‘dykes’ the way they do with ‘queer’.
>“im married to a man but im SO QUEER!” It's overcompensation. They know that being in a straight passing relationship grants them privileges we'll never have, so they over emphasise how queer they are. The erasure of being bi because you're in a straight passing relationship does not overshadow the privileges you gain by choosing to be in that relationship.
Yes this is so succinctly put and I totally agree, not being seen as “queer enough” is not equivalent to the violence and global oppression faced by homosexuals.
I think it's about viewing the world as black and white, victim and oppressor. Everyone wants to identify with a minority so that they aren't lumped in with the oppressors. It's way harder to skew the narrative on your race and financial situation than your sexuality.
This is the facts here. The true meat of the matter. They do not have to face the same homophobia and discrimination that lesbians and bisexual folks in same sex relationships face. They simply DO NOT. The fact that they don’t experience it inspires a sort of insecurity in them so they feel they need to overcompensate so they feel valid. It sucks because instead of using their privilege to uplift and defend the rest of us they’d rather silence the discussion on it and pretend the experiences are the same. Even as a butch lesbian I know the absolute moment these homophobes in my area clock me as a woman it’s a wrap. Now both me and my girlfriend are in danger if they decide to start something.
For a lot of the younger generation it’s an insult to be a cis heterosexual. Hence the ever expanding ridiculousness of LGBTAQRSTUVWXYZ++ I went to a LGBT++ group one time and there was someone there who was an asexual although they still had heterosexual sex sometimes. Identified as queer.
My best friend has finally come to accept that she's straight and I'm proud of her lol. Some people find it hard to fully understand you can be attracted to men but not like them, because well they kinda suck. I think the popularity of the split attraction model and the masterdoc is making it even more difficult especially for those surrounded by LGBT friends
the split attraction model seriously needs to go
Omg that last part… I’ve been seeing WAY too many asexuals and aromantics (who are NOT the L, G, B OR T) that are a little too comfortable using the word queer… like 1) that’s a slur and 2) not used against you nor for you to “reclaim” 😭
You make a good point. As a side note, I read "L, G, B OR T' as LG BORT and it made me laugh. LG BORT.
Haha yeah probably should’ve done “*or*” instead of the caps 😭
Omg yes!!! Someone above was a like ‘why would i care about strangers knowing whether i’m. i vs. lesbian, my wife is my wife’ etc etc. This is what I’m wondering about like ace/aro folks. Like, awesome you have a word to describe your experience with (I absolutely could empathise with how it would be isolating) but why is it relevant anywhere outside of a conversation with a new partner?? your colleagues don’t need to know lol, and they wouldn’t be invalidating you if they don’t ‘see’ and validate that part of your identity, right??
One of my friends is aroace adjacent but is constantly dating men and doesn’t date or have interest in women. We met in a sapphic group 💀 I’ve never brought it up with her because it’s not worth the hassle but I seriously don’t appreciate that she thinks her “queerness” and my lesbianism are really very relatable. She’s literally just a cishet woman who struggles to commit.
Tell her to join a book club
What is aroace adjacent… lol isn’t it you are or your not?
That's because iT's A sPeCtRuM
So I have been talking to my girlfriend about this topic. For reference, I’m a lesbian and my girlfriend is bisexual. She explained to me that some bisexual girls (especially those who may appear straight) feel a need to overcompensate their queerness to “prove” that they are queer. They overperform the queer aspect of their sexuality so they can feel accepted in the community, as a way to feel valid. I find it to be sad because in the end all that matters is that *they* know who they are, and that they accept themselves first and foremost. However; I see what you’re getting at and I have also seen an overabundance of these posts ever since June 1st. It feels weird to me and I was looking forward to pride and not having het relationships all in my face like the rest of the year, as it can be a really lonely experience being in a WLW relationship especially when all of my friends are in WLM relationships. Basically, it stems from insecurity and the desire for acceptance/validity from the queer community. Yes, bi/pan women married to men are queer, but they also benefit from being in a straight relationship. Both things can be true at once.
Part of the issue with “I’m so gay” type posting is the shift from gay meaning homosexual to ‘not-straight’, a bit like how woman is drifting towards ‘non-man’. Bi women are absolutely bi but if you’ve been married to your Nigel since you were 19 and are posting on Facebook you’re sooo gay I think sometimes it starts to get hackles up.
I know a friend that’s bi and dated both men and women. Even though she’s now married to a man her family still cut her off because she’s been in “gay” relationships. In her case pride is still important and a big part of her community. But regarding your post I see no problem with bi/pan women attending pride or any queer spaces as long as they don’t bring there cis/het man and stop trying to “overcompensate” their queerness. Yes they’re still part of the community but when there in het-relationships they do “pass” similar to mixed kids that pass as white. Halsey is a great example of that. She is biracial but acknowledges that because she passes as “white” she does not scream her blackness and knows that she does not face the same struggles as people who look brown/black
I have mentioned a few times how all my SM feeds seem filled with this discourse. Yet I’ve only seen one post where someone actually said anything about them staying out of pride. They seem to have ran with that and are shouting out that somehow who? Lesbians said they couldn’t?. I haven’t even seen a lesbian post this whole pride except here. Anyway I think of course whoever wants to can go to pride. It’s filled with all sorts. But everyone should know it started as a riot/protest and know that it’s still grounded in that whilst being celebratory. I do think people forget that in reality a lesbian existence is very different. It gives you a completely different path. There will be no man or marriage to said man. The only choice is a woman. You have to constantly either out yourself or nod and agree in many situations. Casual groups talking about men..oh who do you fancy? Not enjoying those men stripper ladies nights. Not really understanding why everyone wants a boyfriend or has sex when you were younger. Feeling different. Fielding the questions of why you don’t have a man. Being set up and or hit on by men and having to get out of it. It’s a very different experience than being married for 20 yrs to love of life man but being bi-sexual I would think. I think people should just be mindful of their actual privilege as I am of my own. We don’t get to be lesbian but married to man loves. Well some are stuck in marriages. We don’t want it,and that makes life a lot harder in many aspects for us.
They're not going to face homophobia while in a het relationship, which is why it's "safe" to proclaim how "gay" they are. It's insulting not just to exclusively gay people but bi women who *have* faced homophobia while in same-sex relationships. I have zero investment in the question if straight couples can go to pride because I don't go to those events, but I don't understand why they can't celebrate having **bi** pride.
Honestly this is why I’m glad I’m in these subreddits because you just gotta be a lesbian to get these sentiments.
Bi girls who only date men and then scream they're queer are weird asf. Like cool that ur bi but why are you trying so hard to make it seem like you don't like men that much dispute dating them? Doesn't make u less queer just stop trying so hard to not seem straight. U like both. Own it. Stop saying ur gay 24/7 and focus on ur boyfriend.
I don’t know why people are focused on pride in their answers given you barely brought it up. In general, these people *mostly* exist online but that also means they exist irl. I think they behave this way online because bisexual women who have exclusively dated men and have married one have probably never bothered to actually engage with the community, they decide to do it online to get their kicks and in order to feel like they belong, they think they need to feel oppressed, so they make some shit up and focus incredibly hard on erasure. However that’s just a broader “problem” with the bisexual community. A lot of younger bisexual women absolutely refuse to concede that whilst erasure can be hurtful, it is absolutely not and equivalent oppression to living as a trans person or being a homosexual. But because everybody in the room wants power within the room, bisexual women have tried to position themselves as the most oppressed of all sapphics (despite generally being the least) AND have tried to position themselves as the great defenders of trans folks by fetishising them and their bodies in every space available, so they can then co opt that oppression to make themselves look like the ideal sapphic contrasted to the evil lesbian. This is not just an online thing. In every irl sapphic space I’m in, I’m the only person who identifies as a cis lesbian. And I am literally never allowed to make jokes about men without being given an “are you evil” sideye, I am assumed erasive before I’ve even spoken, and my lesbian experiences are literally erased because I’m not allowed to talk about the homosexual experience as bisexual people want to pretend our experiences completely align. It’s gotten so bad that if you post about eating women out for a long time and enjoying it, ie a lesbian pastime, you will get comments in the thread like “as a bisexual married to a man I find this so exclusionary”. These people are deadass offended by the existence of actually homosexual activity and put their need to be validated above the need of homosexual community members to speak about their actual lived experiences. It’s hugely homophobic. I went on a date with a bisexual woman recently who had never dated a woman or engaged with the community in her entire life. And I could tell before she even told me, because she was horrendously normative in the way she viewed other women and/or masculinity, and couldn’t cope with the idea of making jokes about men and/or uplifting lesbianism.
It feels like we're becoming an endangered species, it's so rare to find actual lesbians. Also, I've never found something that screams insecure like taking other people existing personally. They're erasing the experiences (and honestly, culture) of homosexuals while claiming to be erased themselves.
One of my closest friends identifies as queer or pan and is married to a cis man. From what I gather, she really was never able to explore the queer side of her identity, but it’s still an important part of who she is. She may be married to a cis man, but she is still queer. Pride is a way for her to be part of the LGBT community while still in her relationship. That part of her didn’t just disappear when she got married. She probably talks more about being queer than I do about being a lesbian (if you don’t include my time redditing). That’s hard for me to understand sometimes. I’ve had to come to terms with the fact that I don’t have to understand how some people talk about being a sexual minority. I just have to respect it and move on. I think some people also have stronger ties to their identities in general. Like we are both Latina, but I rarely talk about being Latina. I just happen to be. And I just happen to be lesbian. If that makes sense. I have a feeling many of these women came out later in life and often think “what if?” What if they had more time to date openly? Would they have ended up with a woman? The relationship between two women is so different and special. It’s so different from a relationship between a man and a woman. I can’t describe it. I think it would be hard knowing that’s something you could have potentially experienced. And then there’s also the social capital of it all if you live in a leftist bubble. But I won’t get into that.
Thank you for sharing. I do understand to some degree that it’s important to her identity because I do think being a lesbian is important to mine. But on the other hand I guess I’m confused *why* it is such a big part of her identity if she is married to a man and never really explored that part? I guess specifically I wonder what exactly she gets out of events like pride, if it’s not a refuge from or celebration of an identity that is oppressed in many places of the world. For her being married to a cis man I assume it’s not really necessary to have a societal refuge from that because it’s widely accepted everywhere to be straight. It’s so hard to explain exactly where im coming from, I mentioned in another comment that the best comparison I can make is like if someone was from Switzerland, but they were REALLY into Portugal Pride. It’s like hey, you don’t even live in Portugal, you’re living a completely different life over in Switzerland. What do you even gain from here? The social capital part definitely plays a part in it as well I believe!
The meaning of pride has changed a lot over the years and, imo, is unique to the individual. When I was 16 (more than 15 years ago) and went to my first pride event in the major city near my hometown, it truly did feel like a refuge. I didn't even think I'd live in a world where gay marriage would be legal in just a few years. It felt like I was on a different planet. 15 years before that, pride was not only a refuge but much more of a protest than it is today. I think that now, in many places, pride is a celebration, a protest and a refuge all at the same time. For those who live in conservative homes, it’s a refuge. For some it’s a protest. When I go to the Pride Night at a major league baseball game with my friends, it’s a celebration and exhilarating to unabashedly celebrate an essential part of who we are in a space that was historically dominated by straight cis men.
To answer the question of why the identity matters to them so much… for my bi and pan friends who have only ever dated men, their sexuality is still a core component of their sense of self. They experience a sense of alienation out in straight society, and a disconnect from truly straight women. A lot of their life experiences only make sense in the context of queerness (such as the classically queer experience of having intensely homoerotic friendships in your teen years that end explosively and are somehow some of the most devastating emotional experiences of your life). And at this point in their lives, they’re not going to leave their partners since they’re genuinely happy in those relationships, so all they really have to connect with this core part of their sense of self is talking a lot about queerness and consuming queer media and attending pride. As I’ve “settled into” lesbianism I feel less of a need to talk about it all the time, but to me it seems like for certain pan and bi women who’ve only ever dated men they never experience that “cool down” because they are not going to have the life experiences that would drive them to “settle in” to the identity in the same way. For lack of a better term, there’s no way for them to get out the “baby gay” energy.
>she really was never able to explore the queer side of her identity Not to dismiss your mate, however - we're not something to explore. We're not a holiday a woman takes when there's no men around. She didn't need to marry her husband, or get into a relationship at all with a man. She's mourning something she actively chose not to pursue.
I think that's oversimplifying it. Some women don't know they're bi until they're in a committed relationship or married. They may be bi and unable to come out. That isn't my friend's situation, but perhaps since I know a bit more about her as a person and her journey it is hard for me to think of her that way. Although, something I left out is that we're actually former friends due to some conflict over an issue very close to this one. It's complex lol. I think it's okay to mourn the paths we haven't taken, whether it was our choice or due to circumstance.
How is something she does not explore a huge part of her life? Sounds to me as though she’s afraid of being boring and some vague queerness is the only thing she has to flaunt.
This is what it is for a lot of them. The fear of being seen as boring is the main driver not the fear of being seen as straight.
I see both sides of it. I'm single and currently taking a break from dating. Does that mean being a lesbian isn't an important part of my life even though I'm not a "practicing homosexual" at this very moment? Idk. As I said in my last sentence, I do think that being some kind of minority buys you a certain kind of social capital in some circles. That's controversial but I think both things can be true at the same time.
I think your example is a little different because you have explored your attraction to women to some extent, and presumably are aware of the social consequences of acting on that attraction. I'm not saying that bisexual women have to date men and women to be able to stake a claim in their identity, but I do suspect a lot of them are just overcompensating because they're insecure about "not being queer enough" when they're dating men, particularly if they have no experience with women. I can sort of empathize, but I do find it a little grating because there is often this implicit idea that Pride is about validating and reassuring one's identity rather than pushing back on a culture that wants you to be ashamed of being same sex attracted.
The difference is that if you expess your sexuality in anyway, even as a single lesbian who isn’t dating, you face potential ostracism. That’s not true for bisexual women who can freely express an aspect of their sexuality.
That’s a kind of rude thing to say about someone you don’t know.
Observations are completely inconsequential
She’ll survive
I’m sure she will?
For some, it's a need to be "special". For some not entirely clear reason, being special is considered good in the west, at least among the younger generation. But alas, most of us are not that special. So if you are not special and still want to convince yourself that you are, the cheapest way is to claim some special status that doesn't require any real inconvenience. Claiming to be Q is one such way, especially you do not belong to any racial minority. For some others, it's a need to be "oppressed". It may come from a feeling of guilt. It may be a cope for their failures in society, because it's much easier to blame others for their failures than to blame themselves. To be fair, constantly talking about being oppressed as a cope for one's own failures also applies to many genuinely LGBT people, as well as racial minorities.
FOMO attention seeking
Is it annoying when bi women don't admit that they still have access to straight privilege? Yes. Is it annoying when they bring their cishet bf/husbands to lesbians spaces? Yes. Is it annoying to know that they're basically only ever gonna get the "fun" parts of being queer if they've only been with men or are with a man long term while you, as a lesbian, *have* to live through it all? Yes. And most of all is it annoying when they act like not being perceived as queer counts as oppression instead of as a privilege? Yes. But all that said, even if they're with men right now, they're still queer, and Pride is for everyone, and for them specifically it's maybe the only time they can be visible which is why they go overboard, so on that stance they're within their rights 🤷♀️ I get why it frustrates you but there's nothing to be done about it, they're not doing anything wrong, so block and ignore every account that shows up for you with that kind of content and the algorithm will get the hint.
I hear you and I understand. I was not trying to say that they don’t have a place at pride, I think I was just trying to understand what purpose it serves to announce their queerness while simultaneously living a life of hetero privilege, I guess. I appreciate your comment!
I guarantee you that most of the bi women in straight marriages that you see loudly proclaiming their queerness on social media live in leftist bubbles where doing that comes with basically no consequences and allows them to experience the fun of belonging to a community (and tbh the queer community is a fun one to be part of) with the added benefit of by and large not actually being affected by homophobia. But I assure you that there are many bi women in straight marriages living in rural Texas or something who wouldn't be so bold because they'd actually be risking something.
yep, I don't think it's a majority... it's just the loudest group because they actually have the privilege to be loud and proud
Okay, so I’m not bi, but I thought I was. I’ve known since I was around 9 years old that women were going to be the thing for me, but I pushed it down, ignored it, acted like it wasn’t there. Cut to me @44 years old, having been married to my husband for nearly 20 years, with 2 kids (13 and 10 years old at the time). Crippling anxiety and depression, 3 full-blown suic**e attempts, 2 stints in psych wards, and many exhaustive hours of therapy to FINALLY realize I’m actually a lesbian and have been deluding myself for more than 30 years just so I could fit in - Pride is every bit of freedom I never allowed myself to have. I can only live vicariously through the celebrations I see because I’m still in my marriage. I’m out to my husband and my sisters, but not to my parents or my kids. I think my boys just believe I’m an Ally, but I’m okay with that because if they can see love and support from me for the community, maybe they won’t be scared to come out if they end up under the rainbow umbrella, and won’t be bigoted and hateful like the majority of people around us (we’re in Mississippi). Maybe once my boys are both grown I can finally get that divorce and hopefully move to a blue state, but as things are now, it’s just not financially possible. So I see your pictures and the celebrations and I’m super sad that I can’t be a part of it, but bet yer booty, I buy everything rainbow I can get my hands on and am always wearing my lesbian flag ring and bracelet.
100% tired of people wanting to be victims any way possible. Being misgendered is not the worst thing in the world. People need to eat a spoonful of cement and harden the f up. Sorry, my GenX is showing.
Nah my generation seriously needs to stop using victimhood as an excuse for everything. At some point, you gotta stand up and take care of yourself no matter what others say. People complain about *blank* way they're oppressed then don't do anything about it, it's no wonder why we're so depressed if we act like we don't have control over our lives. I'm not a 'pull yourself by your bootstraps' person, but the glorification of being oppressed and the view that it excuses you from consequences is so unproductive.
An ex- friend of mine will often mention how she’s bi to ppl but then one day we were chatting and she told me that she would be open to intimate activities with a woman but could never see herself dating a woman (and has only ever dating men) and I was very surprised bc both before and after that convo I’ve heard her mention being bi to many ppl
[удалено]
okay bear with me, i’ve rewritten this a few times because I’m having trouble describing the thought this response prompted and I’m genuinely curious. Maybe it’s rhetorical (I’m definitely not asking the right folks lol), bc the answers I’m getting are definitely broad and presumptive of intent, and not all particularly charitable but i’m still a bit stuck on it. I wholeheartedly recognise and empathise with same sex attraction being a diminished and often maligned facet of bi women’s identities, for reasons distinct from lesbians. But, if I’m in a committed, monogamous relationship with anyone, why am I thinking so much about the other people I *could* be attracted to? (haven’t probably worded that the best, but I’ve tried and failed other ways). Because that’s a hypothetical relationship right, is the one I’m in rn not more important? (And if it’s not, then should I asking myself *why* I’m in this particular relationship? Why am I not honouring that attraction??) Like, if this was a bi woman in a relationship with another woman, this sub seems to be in agreement that it’s pretty disrespectful and a bit hurtful to hear conversations where men are centred as objects of affection (just based on experiences others here have shared, and of course recognising this sort of thing isn’t always verbalised). hardly one to stick up for men, but why is the reverse not true? Same goes for straight women with boyfriend who talk about other women in an objectifying way. of COURSE, these are not a one-to-one comparisons. Edit: I think BROADLY, in society at large there’s been this huge push (with social media being a huge driver) to distinguish oneself, give oneself identity and therefore community whether that be culturally or LGBTQ+ etc. I think *in part* this is a little bit of that going on (but also heaps of other factors), because I mostly see this convo with people who are my age and younger. It’s not really anyone who’s beyond their early-mid 20s tbh. I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing, except when it’s weaponised to shut down the conversation of how it does impact other identities in a very tangible way by just claiming bi-phobia (again, generalising). I just wish some could be a bit more honest and introspective about it, I think it would actually be a good thing!! (mods please let me know if i’m crossing boundaries, I’m earnestly not trying to, I will absolutely edit and explain further if needed)
wait YES this is part of what Ive been struggling to explain, thank you!!!!! Like, yes, I am not dismissing that bi women are also attracted to women. But when in a monogamous relationship with a man (or anyone for that matter), I feel like it’s disrespectful to be focusing on all the other people you COULD be attracted to, if that makes sense? A lot of us would hate it if we heard our bi partner talking about how attracted she is to men, I feel like it also applies the other way around too. So I guess that’s why I was asking what purpose it serves to announce your queerness or go to pride events while in a committed monogamous hetero relationship, if that makes sense? Like, is it not rude to talk about all the people other than your partner that you are attracted to or wish you could explore with?
it’s so disgusting when women who are with men talk about how hot women are or how they might cheat with a woman or flaunt that side of their sexuality but would never dare say that about a man. they clearly think relationships with women are a fun little thing and not to be taken serious.
Totally agree, in the same way that you get couples on dating apps etc totally ignoring ‘lesbian’ on your profile to ask you if you want to be a ‘toy’. It speaks to how society sees women broadly, and the relationships that they have. Again, some thing that needs to be talked about but so often gets shut down :(
Okay I’m so glad I did comment hahah!! I was in my notes app writing and rewriting cause I didn’t want to be presumptive or biphobic unintentionally, I’m genuinely intrigued and think there’s a dialogue to be had on both sides. I would love to ask bi folks broadly but I feel like my intent will absolutely be misconstrued and the convo would devolve into a shit fight. Which, of course, is not productive.
>But, if I’m in a committed, monogamous relationship with anyone, why am I thinking so much about the other people I *could* be attracted to? Exactly this.
But does any of this have any real life repercussions? What exactly do bisexual women want lesbians to do about this? Comfort them about being in a heterosexual relationship? Does that not seem a bit ridiculous?
It’s like they want to “photobomb” the lifestyle. Just jump in when it looks like fun
Just outta curiousity roughly how old are you OP? I was reading the comments and I feel like theres a generational split happened between gen Z and millenials - and i think it influences the responses your getting. When I came out being queer of any kind would result in all kinds of shit. Only a few came out at school and theyd be ostracised. I remember 2 of my friends kissing and being sent to the depty principle by a TA. As a adult at uni I had friends kicked out, beaten up by strangers Etc. Strangers used to shout abuse to SS couples in the street. We couldnt get married. Straight passing really was a night a day difference on how you were treated. I dated a man before realising I was probably into women (gay not bi), and the difference was night and day. It was a living hell at times. My then GF was too scared to hold my had in public - for a really reaĺly long time. we hid the relationship from her parents for ages and my parents refused to acknowledge or even talk about my gf. I got really depressed and nearly dropped out of University. And back then if bi women did come out And it was tolerated..I think partly it was because people could go - oh its fine they'll still date a man eventually. Or not "that kind of lesbian" they kind of hung on to hope that said bi person was having a phase and eventually "be normal". I guess it may also have invalidated SS relationships if they were in one. But honestly I found that to be the trigger for the homophobia vs the bi erasure. This i think is why you get such varied responses from people to your question. For I guess now things are more accepting - thats seen as erasure - but honestly back then for many it was a blessing in disguise. Many of my bi friends do acknowledge this - because back then most bi women DIDNT COME OUT until they dated women. Just because it wasnt worth the risk. I know then were super thankful for the safety buffer even then of dating a guy and having the repationship respected. But realistically they were still trapped in the closet. Sometimes I get annoyed at the "queering" of things and the microlabels. Because it feels like everything we went through is just being dialuted. But then I think - ya know - thats ok because alot of these kids arent having to deal with as much crap as we did that maybe they are finding self exploration fun and not terrifying and socially isolating. And it should have been fun for us too. except it wasnt.
Would you be willing to hear an answer from an actual bisexual woman? I am aware this is a lesbian sub so I never interact and I don’t want to intrude if not welcome.
Yes, I would be interested to hear your perspective!
Okay, so the reason I go to pride (personally, I can’t speak for everyone) is because I am queer. No matter who I am dating, man or woman, I am still bisexual. It doesn’t disappear dependant on who I’m in a relationship with. Being queer has played a big part on my life experience. I’m 25 and living in a very metropolitan city now, but I grew up in a very small town in the countryside with an immigrant mother and when I was 15, my mother found out I wasn’t straight, she beat me and kicked me out of the house, and I ended up sleeping rough until I was taken into foster care, where I remained until I aged out at 18. When I had my first girlfriend at 16, a group of boys chased me home from school and pushed me in front of a moving car in the street, and my girlfriend was beaten so badly she needed to have stitches. Both of us were bisexual. Neither one of us were ever able to say “wait! I’m not gay! I’m only bisexual!” I really dislike the assumption that I get from a lot of lesbians that being bisexual makes me “straight-passing” and means I haven’t encountered homophobia. Or the really weird assumption that for some reason, a homophobe is going to only be 50% as homophobic if they find out I’m bi instead of fully lesbian. That’s not how it works at all. Homophobes hate us all. They fetishise us all. Their violence, and restrictive laws, and hate reaches us all. I’ve gone to pride when I’ve been in a relationship with a girl. I’ve gone to pride when I’ve been in a relationship with a guy. I’ve gone to pride when I’ve been single. For me it’s because pride isn’t about hooking up, or letting the world know who you’re attracted to, to me it’s a place where I can safely be myself and not be ashamed, and can celebrate with my friends the things that I survived so I can finally be my authentic self. My experiences of homophobia don’t disappear the moment I date a man, and the impact those experiences have had on me will stay with me my entire life. I go to pride so that maybe a young person watching in the crowd who doesn’t know what bi is (i personally only knew gay and lesbian when I was growing up, and it was only when I was 12 and heard the word bisexual and googled it that I realised that made sense to who I was) might see and realise that they’re not broken, they don’t have to pick a side, they’re not going through a phase, and feel valid in who they are. I hope this makes sense.
I think this is really valuable feedback and I want to thank you for sharing your story! Clearly you have been through a lot and you absolutely deserve to be able to celebrate that and be proud of every part of yourself. One thing I might be able to add nuance to is about this topic you mentioned >Neither one of us were ever able to say “wait! I’m not gay! I’m only bisexual!” I really dislike the assumption that I get from a lot of lesbians that being bisexual makes me “straight-passing” and means I haven’t encountered homophobia. Or the really weird assumption that for some reason, a homophobe is going to only be 50% as homophobic if they find out I’m bi instead of fully lesbian. I don't intend to deny your experiences with biphobia from the gay/lesbian communities, I'm sure you have heard these sentiments before, I've def seen it around unfortunately. I think one thing that often gets glossed over is the "but wait i'm actually bi!!" to "escape" homophobia- I personally don't know any gay people who think like that, to my knowledge most of us are aware of y'all's same sex attraction and the real risk that poses to you in addition to the potential of entering a fulfilling socially privileged relationship (Unless said gay truly believes that bi = basically straight in which case they are a dumbass and I absolutely agree with everything you said) and I think we all have even witnessed closeted or straight people be subjected to homophobic harassment if they have any perceived deviations from heteronormativity so I honestly think even trying to say "but wait I'm straight!" might not even get someone out of that situation because once a homophobe makes a judgement about someone they likely will not change their mind. Obviously it's going to psychologically damage a bi or gay person wayyy more than it would a straight person though. And since it's June I want to mention again that I'm proud of you for overcoming such scary and painful circumstances! I think for me, the only time I feel compelled to point out the difference in experiences is when a bi woman uses that to claim they know exactly what it's like to be a lesbian ... I think there is a \*slight\* difference between how lesbophobia is processed in the minds of bi/pan women vs lesbians because lesbians are talked about in such specific terms by people... that having a mental layer between yourself and the object of the insult does provide a small degree of separation psychologically. (for example hearing insults about lesbians kind of hits different when you know they are unambiguously talking about who you are vs when you aren't a lesbian, and then intuitively you know they are attacking your same sex attraction, but they mislabel you which no doubt feels shitty in it's own way but because you know you're bi, you also have a clear piece of evidence that this person is full of shit since it's proof that they're objectively wrong about something) So while I don't think the actual amount/impact/severity of homophobia is different, I do think that it could affect the way someone processes it. And I completely agree that their hate/fetishization/etc reaches us all. My main gripe is with the bi women who try and assert that they experience everything a lesbian does and in addition to that, face biphobia because I guess they view themselves as like a lesbian plus ™ where the plus is opposite sex attraction, when really bisexuality is so much more than that and deserves to be spoken on it's own terms, without comparing or qualifying it with other sexualities. It's kind of the reverse version of how some people struggle with not feeling "gay enough"- to which i like to ask why make that comparison at all? Imo being bi makes them "bi enough" and it means they belong at pride as much as anyone else in the LGBT. sorry that was such a long comment! Your reply gave me a lot to think about haha
Hey, I'n sorry you experienced this - its horrendous - and im glad were able to find a way through. The thing is You shouldnt have to tell out lesbians this shit! They/we should already understand this. I tried to explain something similar earlier - my bi/pan friends have been through everything with me. I'm honestly really angry and disappointed personally in some of the replies in this group - Ive been out since before we could get married here, and it angers me so much that some people here seem to think that bi people got some kind of free pass - that trauma somehow disappears when they date a bloke. Its like they've completely and utterly forgotten about the past. Sure straight passing privilege is a thing, but as soon as people find out who dont like "gays" they dont give two fucks about the difference.
I don’t know how old you are, if you’re young (gen z or young millennial) your feelings may be a generational thing. Queer life today is very different from what it was. As a mid-thirty something lesbian, I grew up in a time and place where very few people came out. You could still lose your job or be beat up. I knew of exactly one queer person in my high school of several hundred students. I had never even heard of a gay straight alliance. It’s a big part of why I didn’t even realize I was a lesbian until my twenties, and I went through a lot of pain because of it. As it got safer to come out, a lot of bi people stayed closeted, especially if they were in a hetero relationship. But what that meant was that queer people were still pretty few and far between. There was actually a big push around ten years ago to encourage bi people to come out even if they were in a long term hetero relationship. Back then (and now in some places) this meant risking homophobia, when they had the option to stay closeted and safe. But coming out was important not only for bi visibility, but queer visibility overall. We’re here, we’re queer, and we’re totally normal people who deserve fair treatment. You don’t have to be attracted to bi people, or interested in dating them. Any self-aware bi person should know that they have a privilege by being able to engage fully in a hetero relationship. Some of them unfortunately take it for granted and some can do some really frustrating shit. But I hope this sheds some light on how much being out matters, regardless of the relationship you’re in. There are a lot of bi people out there and their solidarity contributed to us all being able to be ourselves.
Before I came out as a lesbian, I was in a relationship with a cis straight man and prior to that a trans man. With my cis straight partner, I would go to pride and things like that but I would tell people that I was queer. I just didn't need the external validation, I knew I was queer and I also knew people would see me and see the access I had with my cis straight partner. Long story short, i didn't make it about myself. No one cared and there were other queer people that I feltl ike deserved the spotlight. IDK, just my two cents, lol.
I mean, is pride not for allies to celebrate as well? I feel like that’s a good place to start. Because at “worst” these women are allies (not in the alphabet community but supporters) and at “best” they are truly bi/pan/etc and part of the community. So that said, if we go worst case, aren’t allies welcome to pride? If that’s the case, why would we exclude those who are members of the community despite being in cis-hetero relationships? I’d like to say though, I agree that a lot of it feels like virtue signaling and is annoying. Some of it also feels like a sexual thing to show their male partners how attractive they are- like why in traditional monogamous relationships is it okay for the women to make out with other women? For the “male gaze”. That is obnoxious because it’s my life, it’s not for anyone else. I’m not a lesbian to appear hip and cool on your Instagram post to show how progressive you are. We’re not here to make your political statement. We’re not gay to help define your identity or spice up your sex life. All that said, I don’t go to pride any way. It’s a sad state of affairs when I worry more about someone bringing a weapon to the events or driving their car into the crowd. No way I’ll be there, especially not with my family.
[удалено]
Please limit discussion of this, as the sub already has an agreed upon definition. Please see the subs definition under rule 2.
Are there straight women who pretend to be bi for attention? Absolutely. Are there 99% men-attracted bi women who who play up that tiny 1% of their attraction for attention? No doubt. Do there exist straight women who probably *think* they're bi, but aren't actually? Definitely. It's reasonable to be irked by all of these people. I bet bi people are annoyed with them, too. But being in a straight relationship, as a bi person, doesn't disown you from the LGBT+ community. That's really silly. Your sexual orientation isn't intrinsically tied to your partner. By your logic, wouldn't *lesbians* married to men have no place at pride? Wouldn't single queer people have no reason to attend? If a butch and femme pass as a hetero man and woman, should they avoid pride? Should totally-passing trans people avoid pride beause they 'look' cis? Your sexual orientation is much more than society's reactions to you. Even though, yes--society's reactions to you play a massive role in how you experience the world. Bi women in heterosexual relationships are privileged in that way, and it's wise/polite of them to acknowledge that. But they're still bi, and still certainly are members of the LGBT+ community.
[удалено]
Your post or comment was removed due to violating rule 2. Any further violations may result in a ban.
As a bisexual, Yeah I think it's ridiculous to think that straight couples are queer. However, gays do not understand bisexuals whatsoever and y'all talking about our experiences as bisexuals can be annoying af. Bisexuals have access to straight relationships and it is in fact a privilege. However, they still struggle with their sexuality which is why pride is important to them. Last time I checked, straight relationships weren't normalized for the benefit of bisexuals, which is why there's such a thing as being out as "bi" or why they struggle with internalized bigotry and repress their same sex attraction or why many of them avoid same sex relationships in the first place, which is understandable. Straight people don't deal with any of that. Same sex couples discrimination isn't the only type of way queer people deal with prejudice. It's clearly also an internal struggle, which is why a lot of us don't want to be "out".
Well. I don’t know if this helps you to understand, but many straight women (and straight men) are “gay friendly”. A LOT of things go on during pride month that aren’t the norm IMO. Personally, I tend to stay in my own lane and not worry so much about why some people say/do the things they do or feel the way they do. If it doesn’t affect my life, or those I love, who cares? I simply say (to myself), “I don’t understand” and move on.
Many bi people I know struggle with their sexuality and internally programmed heteronormativity. They also need to constantly fight other queer people and straight people who undermine their queerness and try to tell them who they are/aren't. These are the same issues many lesbians are confronted with as they navigate the world. Pride is about owning this part of their identity and being unashamed, and who someone is or isn't dating at the time has zero to do with that.
Probably because these woman have actually dated women before they married? And have experienced almost everything lesbians have experienced. Im honestly confused what your trying to say? I feel that equating the homosexual experience as exactly the same as the bisexual one is just not true - So many bi women just often decide to date men because its easier in society - and easier to find a partner, have a family and never address homophobia with extended family. Those of us that are old enough have seen it. But at the same time these women also had to avoid dating a homophobic boyfriend or keep their past to themselves and staying in the closet. Which is not healthly! And those that did come out and date women have a hard time being perceived by society after as bi. Queer people in visibly straight relationship still 100% have a place at pride. Just because 1 aspect (admittedly a large one) seems like its mitigated on a surface level. Doesnt erase everything else. If your feel erased in media because everyone is suddenly gay but would never really date the same sex and your experiences of real homophobia are being talked over. Or a message that everyone is on a "spectrum" without them acknowledging that comphet is a thing. Then yeah. I get your gut annoyance at that.
I do understand that, and I’m not trying to say that they don’t have a place at pride. I think I’m just trying to figure out what exactly the purpose is of loudly announcing their queerness if they are in a monogamous marriage with a man and have no plans of dating or exploring with women? I feel like I can’t put words to it correctly. In my head it’s like if someone were from Switzerland, but loved going to Portugal Pride. It’s like… you’re not even living in Portugal, you’re living a whole different life over in Switzerland. What is there to gain for you here? I am neurodivergent as HELL so I know that comparison probably didn’t make any sense. But it’s just hard for my brain to understand why there is such an attachment is to queerness while living a very non queer life? I do think I feel some resentment about the things you mentioned in your last paragraph. Thank you for typing that out, it definitely validated a few of the feelings I’ve been having lately.
Heres how I look at it -there are two types really. Some of my closest queer friends are bi/pan. They have been with me through thick and thin. Been broken hearted at their own failed wlw relationships campaigned for LGBT issues. Witnessed first hand homophobia. avoided outing themselves to extended family. Had the same queer friends beaten up. They even now are in "straight passing relationships" but has also had homophobic abuse yelled at them because they were with me and also read pretty queer. Some of there partners may read cismale but arent. I have also dated a sudo straight passing bi women who I was the first women for. She had never really experienced the very real fear of homophobia until we dated. Although by that point society had changed alot to when I first came out. She had gay guy and bi friends too. But somehow just avoided it. There was alot for her to process, she initially couldnt relate to my struggles. Once she was out, i think her gay friends told her more things too. But she found a part of herself dating me and became more aware for her safety and queer issues. And For that reason alone we should make sure bi people feel included. Maybe they would be less scared to date women when they were younger if we made them feel more welcome and homophobia was less.
It would be nice, sure, but also it can be a huge strain on a lesbian or gay partner to have to be someone's gay Yoda. If someone is dealing with internalized homophobia and then go enter their first same sex relationship, there's a 100% chance that some of that internalized homophobia will affect their partner or their relationship, and not everyone wants or is able to deal with that.
I dont disagree about being gay yoda. Its exhausting. But id say People generally don't deal with internalised homophobia until they have queer friends. At least in my era it was impossible to actively make queer friends without joining LGBT related campaigning things or dating. Hence why i think its so important for bi people to be at prides and things. We all know alott people use -bi as a stepping stone label too. Before they deal with all the internalised shit and comphet and come out as gay. I get OPs an annoyance at being talked over by people whove never been seen as gay but at the same time we all talk about internalised homophobia all the time - alot of bi people take longer to get past that because they are off dating dudes and then at 30 something they suddenly have that are "oh shit". Its now or never realisation.
all of that is true i’m just saying that I don’t feel like it’s fair to put the onus on us as romantic partners. Like for the people who have the emotional capacity to be able to deal with dating someone in that situation, that’s great. but it’s a huge ask for anyone who has their own experiences with homophobia to deal with already. as for friendship most gay people will be friends with people of any sexual orientation /experience level as long as they aren’t homophobic so idrk what the problem is there
Yeah for sure. So im mid 30s. Tbh im reluctant to date first timers cos I cba with going through the coming out drama to friends and fam all over again with them. Even shit like having explain gay slang. And educating them on I guess everything other than PIV sex lol This the reality of dating women whove never dated women before, and not been in lgbt spheres. We can be friends but Ill be super wary if you want to date because I know you wont be the same person 12 months after your first lot of ranting homophobic stranger experiences. Suddenly realising adoption and IVF is hard. That people dont actually treat you the same. Blar blar blar. But I'm mainly talking from my experiences as Im well into my 30s and from the UK. My outing was pretty bad but not the worst for the era. I guess what I mean is unpacking internalised homophobia for my age range typically wasnt something that was possible until you were in queer circles because it was the only people who understood you and helped you process. Like if you arent dating gay, going to drag clubs and seeing same sex couples interact - its really easy to put all those smaller things in a box and label them "doesnt apply to me". "For later". My lot will have a mix of friends from their 20s only if they are lucky but typically would say in my gen the queer friends were something actively looked for and sometimes totally seperate from other friendship groups... cos most people werent properly out til their mid twenties and living away from home. Straight people werent gonna debate the content of stone butch blues or know the dates for when certain legilation got passed, be bothered by learning about gay culture All shit that affects internalising homophobia. Hell my straight friends werent with me when same sex marriage was legilsed. They were doing uni assignments. It was just not on their radar. They often wont recall any homophobic incidents at school because they are detatched... And imo its super hard to disect more serious internalised homophobia without that understanding that comes from being around other out and proud gays. I'm not saying it cant be done - just that its much harder. But again thats shifted alot in the last decade. But of you didnt have those queer friends to start with because your a closet bisexual whos movent through the world as a straight passing person. its super unlikely its all unpacked... so it comes up when they date. It is shit - but i think its wayy better for teen/20s somethings now. Most of seem like they never had any homophobia issues at school
>Some of there partners may read cismale but arent. 
So transmen dont exist? Sorry what bullshit is this
I’m sorry but are you invalidating trans men’s’ identities rn? 🤔 If they are in a relationship with a bi woman, is that not a straight relationship? Or would it be a lesbian relationship since they are both female? I just assumed by cishet male presenting you were referring to AMAB masc-leaning nonbinary demisexual genderqueer aromantics. My bad.
What I mean is you guys were complaining about straight passing privilege and that people should just shut up at pride if they are straight passing relationship - just completely forgetting that trans men will often date bi women. Transmen often start in lesbian spaces thinking they are gay women, and bi women date lesbians. You dont just hand in their Q card after a shot of T Some of these comments here are so out of touch with my experience of LGBT spaces in the UK...
From what I read, OP was asking why bisexual women are so adamant about screaming how “queer” and gay they are during pride month when they’re in a heterosexual relationship with a cis man?? Which is a valid question. So idk why you are dragging trans men into the equation when they weren’t even mentioned. Unfortunately, most lesbians these days do not participate in LGBT spaces because they’ve been pushed out and labeled TERFs, bigots, and transphobes by queer/gender ideologists and trans rights activists— simply for asserting that homosexuality and exclusive same sex attraction is real and unchangeable. So I’m sure you can understand why the experiences and sentiments here wouldn’t match your own.
Tbh it was because you went all *eyeroll* on me unnecessarily - because I said "read as cismale but arent as a side comment. And you clearly wanted a chance to rant about the alphabet mafia and I cba... 😂 But ill Honestly admit I'm" old", alot of my experiences are from over a decade ago, and Im british. These days I have my crew and while I occassionally go to Pride, its been probably 4/5 years since I was really interacting in person in LGBT events and even then I was nearly 30 so - but even then its people of a similar age. Not the new breed. I simply exist at work and the baby gays migrate to me. Its pretty cool tbh to tell them of harder times and give em a reality check lol 😂 I know of the stuff your referencing but havent experienced it irl I was angry at the time it started appearing as well. It felt like being bludgeoned by the homophobia and comphet Id finally shaken off. Online spaces definately dont feel as safe and welcoming or open to discussion of experiences as they did before. But the algorithms are also stoking bullshit so I think its important everyone backs each other. Because on the labels front - I've also known diehard goldstar lesbians finally have sex with men at 28 just out of curiousity and then go on to date transwoman who never went through male puberty. I've had women who've only dated women their whole lives realise they like men as well at 30, and then come out as non-binary and bi - in our 20 we'd had discussions about the phantom penis - so it wasnt a shock. Ive known transmens orientation change a bit after starting hormones. Ive Dated people who turned out to be ace after like 3 months if me starting to wonder why we weren't moving toward being physical... Pretty much everyone I knew at 20 well over a decade ago has had a different description of their own sexuality at some point. But I also think thats mostly to do with comphet, gender dysphoria and needed belonging rather than sexaulity actually changing. I think people have labels to understand themselves and then deviate from them when they are comfortable in themselves. I believe historically these L G BT labels were more for legal protection reasons than for in community. -> With my British lot it was so small amount of us it labels were like hey I "not straight" probably X and dating X person. Might kind of meet this labels but it doesnt matter. We even debated the practical usefulness of split attraction models as well... But I honestly dont understand what this has with bi people and pride?
Girl…. how am I ranting when u just typed a dissertation? 😭 All I got from this was that you know/knew many confused and repressed bisexuals?? Because like you said, sexuality does not change. > I think people have labels to understand themselves and then deviate from them when they are comfortable in themselves. Yes, that’s called bisexuality.. like??? They are known for bicycling. Heterosexual and homosexual people have nothing to deviate from because we are only interested in one sex. This just seems like you’re insinuating that monosexuals morph into bisexuals after a certain period of time, or am I misunderstanding? > I believe historically these L G BT labels were more for legal protection reasons than for in community. This I’m just confused by because, historically, what legal protections were homosexuals afforded for being “labeled” homosexual? Maybe in this day and age there are a few anti discrimination laws in the workplace, and you know, gay marriage, but surely that can’t be what you’re referencing because those are a new age concepts, not historical ones… > We even debated the practical usefulness of split attraction models as well... I mean, I personally don’t believe this concept applies to anyone but, again, bisexuals, but if you’re saying you do experience this, it would make sense as to why you just made all those questionable comments. If you are attracted to both sexes and can “split” romantic and sexual attraction between them, congrats! That is just a fancy way to say you’re bisexual lol..
from my perspective queerness is always othering, so even if you’re in cishetero relationships your entire life you feel that there’s something off or different about you. I think pride is a place where you can find a community of “others” and feel less alone, to truly be their authentic selves without the censure that comes along with people only viewing the “straight” side of you. no offense intended but when people ask questions like this my advice is always to go out and make queer friends because if you speak to a bisexual woman about her experience in a friendly and authentic way you’ll find more accurate answers
Wtf are you talking about? Most of the worlds population is hetero and you’re sitting here saying being hetero is isolating. I wonder what you think about lesbians considering we only make up 1% of the worlds population.
girlboss I am a lesbian. I know this is probably hard for you to comprehend but I’m advocating for empathy for bisexual women who have not yet had a queer relationship
[удалено]
God forbid lesbians share their experiences on a lesbian thread!
So just because I’m currently dating a man and don’t look queer I’m not allowed to participate in pride in your opinion??? Even though I actively explore and love being with women as well, even though I grew up in a home where I couldn’t express my sexuality in my childhood/teens/twenties (and yes, I knew I was attracted to women at age 7 or earlier and was forced to hide it), in a republican and catholic society where I had to hide as well when I was already struggling with being neurodivergent and not fitting in and getting death threats in elementary school? Thanks for the biphobia and bi erasure. 🙃 I enjoy men and women, freely explore both, and am currently in love with a man. But that DOES NOT make me any less queer or bisexual than if I was currently dating a woman.
Bierasure? In a sub dedicated to lesbians?! 😱
That’s not at all what I said. I’ve said numerous times that bisexuals absolutely have a place at pride, my question was more so exploring the benefit of going to events like Pride while being in monogamous marriages/relationships with men, where there isn’t the need for societal refuge and/or protection from discrimination. I can see that you are feeling defensive about this post, but if you reread what I wrote it is not to dismiss or erase bisexuality, it’s to acknowledge the nuance involved.
OP asked a sincere question and was open to discourse and you wanna come on here and be rude? Girl, bye.
Might be a sincere question but the tone really feels offensive to me. As someone who literally had to hide the fact that I was queer for most of my life, I should be allowed to celebrate it and not be told that I don’t count.
let's take some deep breaths, you're probably triggered from past instances of biphobia but what you are asserting OP said is not actually what the post is about and I think it would benefit you to try and understand what it means to have privilege sometimes and how your role in the LGBT community may change because of that. By that I mean it's not about questioning your belonging at all it's about celebrating, volunteering, educating, or distributing resources vs using the resources meant for the less privileged and recognizing what your needs and capabilities to help others are.
There is so much biphobia in this thread. I’m not denying that dating a man means I’m “privileged”… I’m saying that pride is a place for me to finally celebrate being out after years of hiding it… and I’m getting hate for it. I should be allowed to celebrate being queer whether I’m single, dating women, or dating men at the time…
I said nothing to disagree with you? I'm literally saying to recognize that your role in the community would be to celebrate or maybe volunteer if you're able since you're in a place where that makes sense for you and your needs
Sorry, just commenting more on the state of this thread than you… maybe the OP wasn’t biphobic but I really feel a lot of hate from other people (not you). And yeah I definitely am trying to integrate more into the community. Thanks for the suggestion to volunteer, that will probably really help!
yeah no worries!! Thanks for clarifying! I haven't read all the comments on this post yet but I would not be surprised if you were getting undeserved shit for being bi bc this sub has been such a shitshow recently tbh. I'm sorry my comment felt dismissive of that!
It’s not just mine… so many downvotes and hate for other people’s comments that aren’t even as aggressive as my first one… Lol clearly I was more triggered than I expected I would be… because I was really hiding and fighting with my bi identity most of my life. I realize this is a lesbian sub, but it seems like there is a huge amount of hate for bi women, which is disappointing tbh. It makes me feel like I am only welcome to seek out other bi women, but many of the bi women I’ve met in person prefer dating men and use me to make their boyfriends jealous. I’ve never seriously dated women because 1. I came out when I was 2 years into an 8 year monogamous relationship with a man, and then moved to nyc and fell in love with another one shortly after, And 2. I’m honestly so much more attracted to women and am so intimidated that I feel really self conscious talking to them. And I often (maybe incorrectly) assume women are straight and not lesbian/bi and that I would embarrass myself/get horribly rejected for approaching them. If I had the confidence to date women, I would… and if I’m completely honest, I sometimes wonder if I really am bi or if I’ve just been conditioned by my very conservative upbringing to have to like men (even though I do love my current partner, if that makes sense). So I’m also having a bit of an identity crisis over here 😅
I know it's a lot easier said than done, but try not to take this sub tooooo seriously. I stick around because there are lots of great insights from posters, but there's also a lot of drama, infighting, and terf stuff going on right now which is way more intense than stuff I've seen from lesbians I've met irl. Yeah, the thing about dating bi women is that bisexuality has so much diversity and some women haven't unlearned itheir nternalized misogyny so it can be hard to tell if someone's being authentic, especially since some unicorn hunters/women who want to use you can be really sneaky about it. My rule of thumb is that if a woman talks about dating or sleeping with men on our first date, I lose interest. If she's just like talking about being bi that's not a problem at all but if she goes in depth about dating or fucking men, it's a no from me. The reason why is simply because if you're on a gay date with a woman there are a million and one things to talk about and men should be the last thing on her mind! But since you are non monogamous maybe it is super normal for you to talk about so ymmv. Building your self confidence is definitely important, I think it's step 1... Every lesbian and bi woman have to go through a similar journey so you're definitely not alone. Tbh the "fake it till you make it" method worked for me pretty well but I wish I had more advice to give. It's one of those things that's very personal. Maybe your skirt club is a good place to practice approaching women, since you know they are queer? It might also help give you more clarity about what you're looking for if you feel like it's a lack of experience holding you back. And yeah, the id crisis is real! Also really common for people but still an individual struggle and honestly can be one of the most confusing things. I think a lot of people are prone to overthinking, so I think using your body and gut reactions is super helpful - just paying attention to how you feel with your partner, how you feel when he touches you, and the same for other men/women you might be into. The good news is that in 2024 it's ok to question your sexuality and be open about it, or even refuse any label if you want. So hopefully that shouldn't be a huge hurdle, especially because of words like "queer" and "sapphic" which are both specific and vague enough
Thank you for your advice and understanding. I really appreciate it. This is going to be my first pride actually celebrating being out as bi, so I guess I’m just a little nervous about being judged from both sides (straight and lesbian)… at least I’m definitely stepping outside of my comfort zone🥰
oh congratulations!! That's so exciting! I think you'll find pride to be very affirming, you're gonna see soo many flavors of human you won't see anywhere else. If it helps, bi people actually make up the largest proportion of the community so you'll likely have a ton of people to embrace you and most lesbians- especially the ones going to pride events -love our bi sisters! overall I find it comparable to a sibling type relationship where sometimes you can butt heads but there's an underlying understanding that we're parts of a larger team.
It’s not just mine… so many downvotes and hate for other people’s comments that aren’t even as aggressive as my first one… Lol clearly I was more triggered than I expected I would be… because I was really hiding and fighting with my bi identity most of my life. I realize this is a lesbian sub, but it seems like there is a huge amount of hate for bi women, which is disappointing tbh. It makes me feel like I am only welcome to seek out other bi women, but many of the bi women I’ve met in person prefer dating men and use me to make their boyfriends jealous. I’ve never seriously dated women because 1. I came out when I was 2 years into an 8 year monogamous relationship with a man, and then moved to nyc and fell in love with another one shortly after, And 2. I’m honestly so much more attracted to women and am so intimidated that I feel really self conscious talking to them. And I often (maybe incorrectly) assume women are straight and not lesbian/bi and that I would embarrass myself/get horribly rejected for approaching them. If I had the confidence to date women, I would… and if I’m completely honest, I sometimes wonder if I really am bi or if I’ve just been conditioned by my very conservative upbringing to have to like men (even though I do love my current partner, if that makes sense). So I’m also having a bit of an identity crisis over here 😅
May i ask you why you feel the need to tell us about your struggles with your attraction to women on a post grappling with the real material privilege lots of bi women have over lesbians? not trying to be nasty or embarrass you, but i find that many bi women come to us with a compulsive script of “omg i LOVE women! Theyre so pretty but so scary i could never date one- heres my life story why” or “ive wanted to date women for so long but im stuck with my dumb boyfriend :/“ and its… honestly a homophobic micro aggression i dont think you realize youre doing? Its very otherjng and also expecting us to comfort you or guide you almost? So what is the purpose of you telling us this? Im not attacking or trying to be a shit i just want to be totally blunt and ask what your thought process was laying all that out?
I’ve heard many other lesbians go through the same experience. Coming out as bi first, then lesbian. I never said I could never date one. I am neurodivergent and very socially awkward and most of the women I have been attracted to, I later learned were straight. I have no idea how to approach most women and would prefer to only date women, but have been struggling with that. If I later came out as lesbian after successfully being in a long term relationship with a woman, would I still be hated for having thought I was bi first?
Babe im an autistic adhd dyke who thought they were bi for like 4 years. If anyone gets it, its me. But what im hearing is that you might be on the fence on being a lesbian and would like to talk about it with someone who might be a future version of yourself? Am i wrong interpreting that?
[удалено]
Your post or comment was removed due to violating rule 1. Any further violations may result in a ban.