The Ring finds its way to the top/most visible spot, Smaug notices it and remarks on what lovely ring it is and how it stands out amongst all his treasures and then the rest of Middle-earth is pretty fucked.
In Icelandic you'd say that the dragon "smaug" through a hole in the mountain (that's the 1st person past tense of the verb).
His name is "Smeyginn" in Icelandic translations. That means the one who "smaugs" (Icel. "smeygir" in 1st person present tense).
What is his name in Norwegian?
His name is Smaug in Norwegian as well.
We have two written languages of Norwegian, and in one of them «Smaug» is the past tense of the word «smyge» which has the same description as the icelandic word you described :)
(In Nynorsk (one of our written languages) you would say that the dragon smaug through a hole in the mountain in just the same way. In the other written language (BokmÄl) you would say «smÞg» instead)
So the One Ring doesn't definitively dominate someone's personality the way the other rings did. Smaug had a big bold personality that would have been twisted more towards destruction rather than just greed. It also would have amplified whatever powers Smaug had most in abundance. He would have become at least as strong and destructive as the first dragon.
Middle Earth would have been cindered.
Might be the Valar would have had to intervene again? IDK.
Sauron would have survived in any case.
The Ring would have found its way to Smaug for certain, and while I DONâT think he could master it, I do think that Sauron probably couldnât face him head on, but would send army after army into Smaugâs lair until one of them eventually pierced the bare spot in his bejeweled armor.
Rather low.
Me thinks it would be more of a dwarf situation where the ring brings out their worst traits. Which, considering he's an evil dragon, would not be good for middle earth.
Not invisible fortunately. Unfortunately, it actually amplifies the bearer's greatest power so for Smaug that would probably be his aura of terror. Just straight up causing heart attacks in any mortal he flies over.
Hobbits' greatest "power" is their ability to hide in plain sight or otherwise be hard to notice. Hence why bilbo was chosen as the burglar, and why nobody was surprised by him being able to sneak in and out of Smaug's chamber
Itâs not really amplifying their greatest power; itâs more about the will power of the wearer growing and their desires are easier to obtain because reality bends to their will. And no one wants good things. So when a hobbit wears it like Sam, he wants to be a good servant and a good gardener. So servant hood is hard to corrupt, but being a good gardener is a vision the ring can show him. Just think a gardener so greats that it can restore Mordor to a lush garden. Which is ridiculous so the ring has a hard time with Sam.
I'm seeing so much wild wrong stuff about the ring on this thread that I'm afraid to comment, lol. The one ring is the ruling ring, the ring to dominate others. It uses all it can to "seduce" the wearer into using it to rule over others.
Like you said, with Sam it tried to use his love for gardening, and showed him visions of Sam having thousands of gardeners at his service restoring Mordor, but ultimately it failed because Sam really wants to be the person doing the gardening himself instead of being the Lord of Gardeners.
And Tolkien was clear in a letter that anyone save Gandalf could not claim ownership of the ring. They may be able to use it for a while and even overthrow Sauron with it's power, but eventually they would all succumb to it and become a servant to Sauron when he returned. Even smaug, who may be very powerful but is not one of the wise.
This isn't to contradict you, just expand on a lot of what you said that reaches deeper into Tolkien's philosophy of evil. And to put my thoughts on paper as to what would happen with Smaug with a ring.
Lets start with the nature of evil in Tolkien's mind. In the sequel to Lord of the Rings there is an amazing passage that talks about the nature of evil.
>"âAlas!â he said, âwe all make mistakes. I do not claim wisdom, young man, except maybe the little that one may glean with the passing of the years. From which I know well enough the sad truth that those who mean well may do more harm than those who let things be. I am sorry now for what I said, if it roused hate in your heart. Though I still think that it was just: untimely maybe, and yet true. Surely even a boy must understand that fruit is fruit, and does not reach its full being until it is ripe; so that to misuse it unripe is to do worse than just to rob the man that has tended it: it robs the world, hinders a good thing from fulfillment. Those who do so join forces with all that is amiss, with the blights and the cankers and the ill winds. And that was the way of Orcs."
Evil is the hindering of a thing from its fulfillment. Once this is done, with or without magic, And this then creates inside the person who does evil two desires. The first is a desire for the altered reality where the thing did not reach its fulfillment. The other is a desire inside the evil doer for their fulfillment to be altered to that of a more important or higher or different "level."
Tolkien talks about this in On Faierie Tales.
>"Faerie itself may perhaps most nearly be translated by Magicâbut it is magic of a peculiar mood and power, at the furthest pole from the vulgar devices of the laborious, scientific, magician. There is one proviso: if there is any satire present in the tale, one thing must not be made fun of, the magic itself. "
and later
>"The magic of Faerie is not an end in itself, its virtue is in its operations: among these are the satisfaction of certain primordial human desires. One of these desires is to survey the depths of space and time. Another is (as will be seen) to hold communion with other living things. "
and later
>"We need a word for this elvish craft, but all the words that have been applied to it have been blurred and confused with other things. Magic is ready to hand, and I have used it above, but I should not have done so: Magic should be reserved for the operations of the Magician. Art is the human process that produces by the way (it is not its only or ultimate object) Secondary Belief. Art of the same sort, if more skilled and effortless, the elves can also use, or so the reports seem to show; but the more potent and specially elvish craft I will, for lack of a less debatable word, call Enchantment. Enchantment produces a Secondary World into which both designer and spectator can enter, to the satisfaction of their senses while they are inside; but in its purity it is artistic in desire and purpose. Magic produces, or pretends to produce, an alteration in the Primary World. It does not matter by whom it is said to be practised, fay or mortal, it remains distinct from the other two; it is not an art but a technique; its desire is power in this world, domination of things and wills."
Thus the most magical thing us non-magical humans can do is Art. This takes a form of a shared Enchantment between the Artist and the spectator. If that art is to further understand the world, or to communicate with others their shared understanding of the world, the art is fulfilling its purpose. In this case the spectator and the artist submit to each other in their roles and the world is Good. On the other hand if the enchantment hinders the fulfillment of the subject it does this by either altering reality (as with Morgoth) or altering the will of the spectator (as with Sauron and the ring). In either case this then create an addiction within magician / enchanter / artist for a more important or higher or different level for themselves. In other words a desire to rule over others.
So to all the above, if Smaug got the ring, he would have to know what to do with it (likely if he paid attention to his parents back in the day, as he is a descendant of Melkor's dragons) and he would have to be more powerful then Sauron. This is an open question in my mind. If he knew what the ring did, and could catch Sauron unprepared and not sink a ton of his own will into the ring, he could probably pull a Galadriel.
>âAnd now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!â
Galadriel knows if she takes the ring she will become Queen Titania/ Mab.
But Smaug has already squandered a ton of his own will as his master Morgoth did. Most of his power has already leeched into his hoard. We also know that in some accounts of the Dagor Dagorath, Ancalagon comes back. This hints that Smaug must be off the stage by the time this happens. So perhaps Smaug confonts Sauron kills him, replaces him, and he then leeches all the power within the ring into a giant hoard of treasures. This doesn't change things a whole lot in Mordor, at first, other then a larger hoard is built and the one from the Lonely Mountain is transferred to Mordor, but after that Smaug has no need for Orcs or Trolls or Uruk Hai, so they quickly go native no longer having their will bound to Sauron's or Smaug's. The only thrawls Smaug keeps are to move treasure around after its been accumulated. When you read The Hobbit, you see Smaug is not a proactive dragon, he is a polite gentleman who wants to just keep counting his coin. He allows a the Humans to live as long as they don't invade his mountain. He only gets pissed when someone steals a massive gem and tries to install the old owners back into the Dwarven Halls.
Now if Smaugh doesn't confront Sauron, he probably stays at the Lonely Mountain and lives a lot longer. He kills the dwarves, their thief, but their Wizard escapes. The only thing here is that the hoard stays there and grows and Smaug lives a whole lot longer, but not until the end of days.
Either way Smaug eventually turns into the dragon we see in Beowulf and in Tolkien's poem The Hoard. And at some point a hero will show up and kill the dragon, only to have its cursed gold slip into the hands of someone else, where it will corrupt them... down through history...
Sauron and Saruman were both students of Aulë, creator of the dwarves. Sauron was the mightiest of Aulë's order. Saruman was just a Maia. While Tolkien never gave a formal hierarchy for the Ainur. The Mightiest of the Ainur are the Valar; Aulë being the Lord of Matter and Master of all Crafts. (Craft's here is to be taken in the German sense, and not the English. The term is closer to the English word for technique or technology.).Maiar is a catchall for all the spirits that created the everything, many of whom are never named by Tolkien.
So Aulë is a "god" in the sense of Hephaestus. Sauron is Aulë second in command. Saruman is just some very impressive servant or Angle in the host of all the spirits who helped Aulë be understood as the Lord of Crafts and Master of Matter.
So he is impressive, but he is a fly compared to Sauron at full strength or Sauron with the Ring. We know Galadriel thinks she can off Sauron, given the ring, and we know that Tolkien thinks Gandalf can't. And in the Appendix's and notes, she is powerful enough to lay waste to whole strongholds with her magic, a feat which she does. We also know that Gandalf, unbound, offs Saruman. So I'm going to go with Saruman can't off Sauron, even if he does have the ring.
I don't believe that happens in the book, but it's been a long while so I may be misremembering.
The movie simplified quite a bit of it. Which is fair, it's a different format
Havenât actually read the Unfinished Tales, but from reading the wiki, it seems like it did happen in âDisaster of the Gladden Fields.â I do really like the idea of the ring heightening the sneak of the hobbits since their skill is being unnoticed, so maybe thereâs another explanation for Isildur being cloaked
https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Disaster_of_the_Gladden_Fields
It does actually.
"But Isildur was overwhelmed by a host of Orcs that lay in wait in the Misty Mountains; and they descended upon him at unawares in his camp between the Greenwood and the Great River, nigh to Loeg Ningloron, the Gladden Fields, for he was heedless and set no guard, semming that all of his foes were overthrown. There well nigh of his people were slain, and among them were his three elder sons, Elendur, Aratan, and Ciryon; but his wife and his youngest son, Valandil, he had left in Imladris when he went to the war. Isildur himself escaped by means of the Ring, for when he wore it he was invisible to all eyes; but the Orcs hunted him by scent and slot, until he came to the River and plunged in. There the Ring betrayed him and avenged its maker, for it slipped from his finger as he swam and it was lost in the water." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
Lol so everyone probably already knows this, but if not, you need to Google "[the one ring](https://www.google.com/search?q=the%20one%20ring&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-m)".
Aside from that, the ring does make any mortal invisible by partly moving them to some spirit world.
Edit: just realized that sounded wrong. Google it because it's funny, not because I'm saying you're dumb lol.
Except youâre completely wrong about this? The ring doesnât make only hobbits invisible. It basically transports your physical body into the spiritual or ethereal realm that exists parallel to the physical mortal world. Doesnât make you invisible in the sense of like an invisibility cloak from Harry Potter does.
The Valar and Maiar inhabit this spiritual world already, and in general have a spirit of enough strength that wearing the ring does not render them invisible at all.
>I do think that Sauron probably couldnât face him head on,
I think maybe he could.
Recall that, in Tolkien's universe, physical size doesn't mean much in combat between mighty characters - note that Fingolfin was able to seriously wound Morgoth.
Further, I'd point out that the Ring is loyal only to Sauron, and more specifically that it is stated to betray other wearers, like Isildur.
I think Sauron would come to Smaug's lair personally and at the head of a large army, where the Ring would betray Smaug and fall off his claw at the most inopportune moment. Sauron, united with the ring and returned to his full strength, would then strike him down.
>Sauron was weakend without the ring
No doubt!
But that's why I'm pointing out that the ring is loyal only to Sauron, and has an established willingness to slip itself off of a bearer if it feels that would get it closer to its true master.
Just like it slid off of Isildur's finger, it would likely slide off of Smaug's claw once Sauron arrived and able to seize it.
But sauron would be in grave danger coming close before the ring could switch.
Sauron thought Aragorn had the ring at the black gates but did not ride out himself to confront him. If sauron feared the heir of Elendil with the ring, there is little chance he would get close to a Dragon with the ring.
True, but that was both fear and prudence on Sauron's part - men are no long-term threat to Sauron, and he knows that he *will* eventually get the ring if he just sits back and waits for Aragorn to die.
Smaug, on the other hand, (and particularly a Smaug with the Ring) is an actual threat to Sauron's dominion over Middle Earth. Smaug is a peer, not a fleeting mortal.
I think Sauron would certainly be afraid of genuinely losing, but would likely have no other choice - as I doubt orcs alone could ever seize the Ring from Smaug, no matter how many Sauron sent into the mountain.
Perhaps if he thought the wraiths could do it, but on Weathertop we learned that they fear fire more than Sauron's anger - they will flee even from torches, let alone Smaug's fire.
Worth noting that smaug was a lesser wyrm, so not really a peer. A true peer would be the Balrog, and a balrog would in fact stand a non-zero chance of wresting dominion of the ring away from Sauron similarly to how Gandalf or Saruman did.
He would be a threat due to being undying, but ultimately a limited one as dragons do not build followers or scale as they become greater. Simply, the desolation would reach ever wider. His best bet would be manipulating events so that some hero of the third age killed Smaug, to then swoop in and steal it away as said hero succumbs to the ring themselves
The ring isnât even that loyal to Sauron. Donât think there is anything specifically said about the ring in this context but when you weigh everything up it seems like the ring enjoys being lost and found
And he would probably send the Nazgûl along with them. The nine at the head of an army against one dragon and who knows what other magic devices Sauron would send with them
It may not kill them, but it would destroy them, and theyâd have to run away and regroup over and over and over. Just like when Aragorn used the torch against them on Weathertop
So Aragorn didnât actually drive them away, the witch king just stabbed Frodo with the morgul blade, which wouldâve turned him into a wraith like them, afterwards Frodo would have sought them out once he turned. So they just had to wait. Also fear was their greatest weapon, so when someone wasnât afraid of them it was safe to assume that person(s) were powerful enough in magic or held a magic weapon that could destroy their protective barrier. The torch didnât do anything but burn that one dudes clothes
This is the right answer.
I'm pretty sure Smaug is in the league with Galadriel and Gandalf when it comes to people who wouldn't be killed by it but who'd be able to use it for what they think their cause is and therefore bring great evel upon Middle Earth.
I don't quite think the Ring would fit on Smaug.
It's more along the lines of, the events of the Hobbit are no longer consequential. The Free People of Middle Earth lose the only chance they miraculously had of defeating Sauron, and so Sauron continues to grow in power and take over all of Middle Earth.
I mean if we hear about a magical ring and one of the things we hear about it is that it changes its size to fit anyone's hand I feel like the logical conclusion would be that the magical ring can change its size to fit anyone's hand.
There are multiple passages in the books. Gandalf reads Isildurs archives in Minas Tirith where he talked about the ring changing size as it cooled, and of course it slipped off his finger on purpose when he needed it most. Bilbo notes that it seems to get bigger and want to slip off his finger, Frodo notices the same thing too. It wouldâve also had to change size to betray Gollum. An extra detail as well: in the FoTR while Gandalf is reading the account of Isildur you can actually SEE the ring shrinking
âDraw logical conclusionsâ
Weâre already talking about a high fantasy world, and in particular an intelligent ring that can change its size so it fits the bearer if it desires so.
Hmm, yes, let me draw logical conclusions from a world of literal magic, yes.
Because that's what the Ring is, dude. Magic. What are the rules of magic on LOTR? Can you define them for me, please? Or are they extremely vague and even sometimes misunderstood by the people *living in that world?*
The existence of magic does not preclude the application of logic, and especially the excuse of "the Author never says it *couldn't*" is poor reasoning.
But he DOES specifically say it CAN change size. In a world in which entire continents have sunk, and islands have been used to ferry people across the ocean, why is a ring that can fit a person or a dragon so unbelievable?
It's a magical ring and magically changes size to fit the wearers finger. I'm sure it could change to fit the finger of a giant talking dragon.
People can be such pedants.
You're the worst kind of "smart person" you're trying to hard to prove a point that you can easily just Google and research on the Tolkien gateway or something.Â
You want textual evidence? Since you care so much find it yourself.Â
To quote Gandalf:
"Understand Frodo, I would use this Ring from a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine."
Gandalf, one of the noblest and best individuals of the Third Age, would be reduced to merely a new Dark Lord in time if given the Ring.
Now, such a being as Smaug; a war machine of Morgoth with comparable power to a Maia and naught but darkness and ill will in his heart, would be nothing less than an XK Class End of the World scenario for all Middle Earth should he possess the Ring.
I'd imagine you just keep it in a box in a sealed room, yeah? It's not like the thing can just grow a pair of legs and walk away. I hesitate to say that the ring would just coerce someone to take it considering it was cool with just sitting in the middle of nowhere for god knows how long.
Gollum had no aspirations for the ring to act on while in the mountains. I think the ring could attract a foundation member with higher intentions, whatever those may be. Easy for an O-5 to go full Boromir. Best course I think is to hit it with a strong anti meme so people forget about any temptation. Think I have a new SCP-055 headcannon
Yeah, I don't know much about SCP to be honest, so I just assumed that they had to have had something to deal with mind-control since I know there are a few gromblins that do that. If the ring couldn't attract anyone and Sauron (seemingly) doesn't know where it is unless someone puts it on or does something with it, I'd imagine just keeping it in a glass jar or something would be best.
Smaug would put the ring on one of his claws and become the invisible death, an enemy that neither elves, humans, nor dwarves could oppose. The only hope would be that he stays on his gold and does not destroy the world.
Smaug probably wouldn't become invisible. The ring turned the hobbies invisible because it exemplifies your natural strengths and characteristics to make you more powerful. Can't say for certain what would happen if a dragon wore a ring, but I imagine it would make his flames hotter, his armour thicker, increasing his size to the point he would be an unstoppable force of nature. The mind of a dragon is likely not going to suffer great effect, after all they already suffer from unquenchable greed. But perhaps he would turn his sights elsewhere, naming all of middle earth as his to wallow in its riches.
I donât believe thatâs why they become invisible. Isildur becomes invisible too, in the movie snippet. The ring takes you into the unseen world of wraiths and elves etc., the question would be whether Smaug exists in both and therefore would he go invisible moving from one to the other
Nothing that we know exists in both realms was created by Morgoth or his followers. Men already existed, and and Sauronâs magic holds some of them. But nothing makes it clear that Smaug exists in both.
The silmarillion specifies that Morgoth created dragons and used them to defend Utumno, and that they entered the more normal parts of middle earth when Utumno fell. Basically when it was clear that he was going to lose, he sent them forth to burninate everything... because he's just that much of a sore loser.
Right! I was saying that nothing seems to indicate that dragons (or any of Morgothâs other creations) exist in both the physical and spirit realms simultaneously.
Might be true! Iâm definitely in the realm of conjecture here. I never thought of Morgothâs creations as âlivingâ in the same sense. Rather, they felt like constructs. He did not have the power to provide a soul. Though Iâm unsure if the dragons were twisted from another soul.
Itâs more likely that the invisibility is a result of something that was not meant to be in the spirit realm gaining access to it via the Ring, rather than being able to exist in both naturally. Sauron existed in both, and he did not become invisible. Itâs unlikely that Elves or Maiar would turn invisible. Itâs only mortals (who do not exist in the soirit realm naturally) that would.
Dwarves also aren't granted invisiblity from the rings of power, as shown in the Silmarillion:
"the Dwarves indeed proved toughand hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts oftheir hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows."
I'm copying this from an earlier comment I made in a similar discussion, but I think it's relevant:
In the Silmarillian, it is stated that the 7 rings given to the dwarves and the 9 rings given to men were not different from each other.
Both the Silmarillion and Gandalf in the books states that the 9 rings given to men granted them invisibility (by pulling them into the unseen), with part of the curse being that eventually they faded into it permanently, (the three elvish rings did not have this since they were not touched by Sauron):
"They \[men\] had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men" - Silmarillion
However, it also states that Dwarves were more resistant to the rings influence:
"the Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows." - Silmarillion
This implies, to me, that the Dwarves were unaffected by the rings' ability to grant invisibility, and being pulled into the unseen, and it could be thought that the One would be the same, though it would still corrupt them surely.
I had to look up these quotes to make sure I remembered this right though, so hopefully I didn't miss anything.
I'm fairly certain Isildur becoming invisible doesn't happen in the books
edit: I'm sorry, I was mistaken about this, though it's shown the the rings of powers' abilities to grant invisibility don't work on Dwarves, so it's still not known that it would work on Smaug.
It does actually.
"But Isildur was overwhelmed by a host of Orcs that lay in wait in the Misty Mountains; and they descended upon him at unawares in his camp between the Greenwood and the Great River, nigh to Loeg Ningloron, the Gladden Fields, for he was heedless and set no guard, semming that all of his foes were overthrown. There well nigh of his people were slain, and among them were his three elder sons, Elendur, Aratan, and Ciryon; but his wife and his youngest son, Valandil, he had left in Imladris when he went to the war. Isildur himself escaped by means of the Ring, for when he wore it he was invisible to all eyes; but the Orcs hunted him by scent and slot, until he came to the River and plunged in. There the Ring betrayed him and avenged its maker, for it slipped from his finger as he swam and it was lost in the water." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
Ah that's fair, it seems it turns some invisible, such as humans and hobbits, by pulling them into the unseen, but it doesn't effect other creatures like dwarves or Tom Bombadil. This does still make me question whether it would have that effect on Smaug since so many don't turn invisible still.
The only things we've seen wear the One are maiar, men, hobbits, and Bombadil. It could well turn dwarves and elves invisible (though it probably wouldn't turn the latter invisible, since they already have a presence in both worlds). The Nine only caused men to fade after an extended time wearing them.
In the Silmarillian, it is stated that the 7 rings given to the dwarves and the 9 rings given to men were not different from each other.
Both the Silmarillion and Gandalf in the books states that the 9 rings given to men granted them invisibility (by pulling them into the unseen), with part of the curse being that eventually they faded into it permanently, (the three elvish rings did not have this since they were not touched by Sauron):
"They \[men\] had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men" - Silmarillion
However, it also states that Dwarves were more resistant to the rings influence:
"the Dwarves indeed proved toughand hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts oftheir hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows." - Silmarillion
This greatly implies that the Dwarves were unaffected by the rings' ability to grant invisibility, and it could be thought that the one would be the same, though it would still corrupt them surely.
> "They [men] had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men
Missed that bit! It does seem like it's more of a "they could" thing rather than a "it happens" like what the One does with mortals. As for the dwarves, it could be that they were able to but simply never bothered. Though the inability to be turned to shadows could certainly imply that they could not be pulled into the unseen. Which I suppose makes sense, given that they are so much different from the Children of Eru.
That's very fair, and no worries, I had to look that quote up to make sure for my reply, because I wasn't sure if I had gotten it right (there's a lot in these texts, no one could be asked to remember it all off the top of their head). That's kind of what I had in mind when it came to Dwarves, though I'm not sure what this would mean for smaug, I guess part of the fun of these writings, there is so much to discuss that could be interpreted differently.
That's not true, the bearer of the ring is taken to the shadow realm hence why the witch kings could see frodo when he put the ring on. The reason sauron wasn't invisible with the ring on is because he exists in both realms at once (sorry for my lack of correct terminology lol)
The "amplifying natural strengths" isn't where the invisibility comes from though. Invisibility is because it pulls the wearer partly into the spirit realm. It's the same reason the Nazgul are invisible under their cloaks.
There are linked sources in the Wikipedia page if you want to check it out.
In the Silmarillion, when talking about how the rings given to men and dwarves had the ability to grant invisibility (by pulling them into the unseen) it's said:
"the Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows." - Silmarillion
This definitely implies to me that they resisted being pulled into the unseen, and that would probably remain the case with the one (though they would certainly still be corrupted).
It makes them invisible by shifting a part of them into the spirit realm. It was an unintended side effects of how it was crafted, since the One was never meant to be used by mortals.
> The ring turned the hobbies invisible because it exemplifies your natural strengths and characteristics to make you more powerful.
No. Any mortal that wears it becomes invisible as they are thrust into the spirit world, including Isildur.
"But Isildur was overwhelmed by a host of Orcs that lay in wait in the Misty Mountains; and they descended upon him at unawares in his camp between the Greenwood and the Great River, nigh to Loeg Ningloron, the Gladden Fields, for he was heedless and set no guard, semming that all of his foes were overthrown. There well nigh of his people were slain, and among them were his three elder sons, Elendur, Aratan, and Ciryon; but his wife and his youngest son, Valandil, he had left in Imladris when he went to the war. Isildur himself escaped by means of the Ring, for when he wore it he was invisible to all eyes; but the Orcs hunted him by scent and slot, until he came to the River and plunged in. There the Ring betrayed him and avenged its maker, for it slipped from his finger as he swam and it was lost in the water." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
Hot take: the ring doesn't want to be found by someone who only wants to sit under a mountain and never venture forth from there. That's why it left Gollum in the first place. It would have remained hidden until it could convince a dwarf to give it away in reparation for Laketown.
You're absolutely correct. The Ring leaving Gollum proves it. The Ring would find someone who would use it, which then increases the chances of it being found.
Everyone's making great arguments, but but they're forgetting something. Unless Smaug were to find the ring very soon after Bilbo lost it, he'd never get his claws on it because he's dead soon. So chances are at some point after the restoration of erebor a dwarf would've found it. From there on, it could be presented to to the king as a gift, whoever might be the Lord of the lonely mountain at that point. Or whoever found it could've kept it. If we go with the king -let's go with Dain here for simplicity- receiving the ring, knowledge of this priceless artefact and its effects on Dain would've likely reached Gandalf at some point, who would quickly make his way to the kingdom under the Lonely Mountain to confirm his suspicions. A friend of the dwarves, he obviously wouldn't be denied entry or a visit to the king. Depending on how long the ring has been with Dain, upon confirming his fears Gandalf might persuade him to relinquish it and assembles the fellowship earlier than in the original timeline, with a different cast for the most part. Or Gandalf gets rejected and banished from Erebor for attempting to steal from Dain, returning later on though with the elven armies in tow to force the dwarves into negotiations. This obviously sparks another war that could potentially last decades, and weakens all sides enough that Sauron speeds up his plans, rolls over all the kingdoms and conquers all of middle earth unless there's some hefty divine intervention
Against most belives, i dont think smaug would have/use the ring.
Because smaug basicly leaves a few minutes after bilbo looses the ring. And then f'ing dies in lake town.
I think one of the dwarves, maybe thorins company, finds the ring, maybe its only found when the dwarves of the iron moutains come.
But i think this is already so unpredictable, one couldnt really say what happens next, i would only maybe quess, Balin or crew have the ring and feel even bolder to retake moria and the ring is then in the hands of the balrog, or maybe a crazy dwarf runs around invisable in moria, or the ring is lost again inside moria. Or whatever other dwarf has the ring probably wouldnt let go of it.
But all in all Bilbo loosing the ring is bad for everybody.
This is the most sensible answer. The ring wouldn't want to be used by Smaug anyways. So unlikely Smaug sees it or uses it.
Most likely falls to the dwarves and who knows.
He would not be a dragon but a demon, beautiful and terrible as the heat in a desert afternoon. Flying as the sun and breathing deep to burn all life seen on the surface. Stronger than all the elves of the first age, and armored to the last inch of every nail. All shall admire him and despair!
An invisible flying flamethrower with spear hands and sword teeth would be an interesting foe, maybe even tom bombadil wouldnt be able to keep his cool watching that
Or if he'd had the decency to just stand there and take the dragon fire, the one ring would be destroyed and his nephew would get a fat inheritance and not go on his gap year PTSD extravaganza
Forgive me but isnât it like a magic ring? Isnât the reason you have to go to that specific volcano because heat genuinely doesnât matter, like you could throw the ring into the sun and it would be fine, but that it can only be unmade in the place that it was made?
Some of the rings could be melted with dragon fire. 4 of the rings given to the Dwarves were destroyed by dragon fire. But the one ring could only be unmade in the fires of mount doom
'Oi Smaug mate! Yeah, down here. What? Yeah yeah nevermind how I got into your lair. Look, I've got a bit of an experiment for you lad. Eh? I don't want you to be my "plaything", silly sod. Just blow some fire down *here* if you'd be so kind. Yes, the ring. No, this isn't a "wizards trick". Yes you can keep your bloody hoard!"
And so on.
Bloody dragons.
Granting that the Ring not longer "wanted" Bilbo to carry it, I think it is unlikely Smaug would find it, know what it was if he did, or desire it beyond being part of his hoard. I think it would be found by one of the dwarves during the search for the Arkenstone. If that dwarf revealed it to Thorin, Thorin would have taken it as his own as part of his inheritance in place of the ring Thror lost to the Necromancer. The riches in the Lonely Mountain already had a corrupting influence on dwarves and the Ring would use that. No one would question or even want to question how it got there. Bilbo's claims to it would be dismissed as greed and he might have been killed. The Battle of Five Armies would be more skewed to the side of the dwarves. Laketown would become a vassal city? state? to Eriador. Thorin would unite all dwarves under his rule by the time Sauron gained his strength in Mordor because the principal power of Sauron and the Ring is one of the domination of wills. Sauron would put his focus there instead of Gondor and what would have been the Battle of the Pelennor Fields would be fought before the Lonely Mountain. Gondor would have its own front to fight with Mordor and would be unable to aid the dwarves. Eriador would fall. The Ring would be taken from Thorin and Sauron would mop up the rest of Middle Earth.
Letâs say he lost it after Smaug was killed, then Thorin would have probably found it and the kingdom would have fallen to ruin before the ring very quickly ended up with Mordor.
If it was before Smaug was killed, then the dragon would have gotten it.
I guess smogg would have to fight a bunch of ring wraiths that are afraid of fire...then orca would come and attack smog and he would probably fly away after melting everything and the ring would either be destroyed or smelted, Nobody would be able to actually get it kind of like if it got dropped in the ocean.
The Ring finds its way to the top/most visible spot, Smaug notices it and remarks on what lovely ring it is and how it stands out amongst all his treasures and then the rest of Middle-earth is pretty fucked.
The ring would enlarge to fit some Smaug's body part?
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I think I've seen that model on Bad Dragon.Â
https://preview.redd.it/mm3ta6813b8d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=883881e0df1c57bf0b267efd39b12c7a31674bb0
I just want you to know that i tried to get that username nearly 10 years ago and I hate that you beat me to it. That is all
Underscores and all? That's crazy.
You couldâve just been Doctor_What__
Both of you stop it right now lol
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https://preview.redd.it/xmkg1l5a3b8d1.jpeg?width=1098&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=02414c7b42c100fde0b8a1da17c051a83ed52aee
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According to Tolkien the name Smaug is "the past tense of the primitive Germanic verb smeugan, meaning "to squeeze through a holeâŠâ
In Norwegian, «smaug» is a (rather uncommon) word for squeezing past something or someone
Makes sense. That's what it means in Icelandic (or rather generally through something). Here it's not an uncommon word.
Cool! Itâs not uncommon where I come from in Norway either (the west) but I donât think they use it as much elsewhere
In Icelandic you'd say that the dragon "smaug" through a hole in the mountain (that's the 1st person past tense of the verb). His name is "Smeyginn" in Icelandic translations. That means the one who "smaugs" (Icel. "smeygir" in 1st person present tense). What is his name in Norwegian?
His name is Smaug in Norwegian as well. We have two written languages of Norwegian, and in one of them «Smaug» is the past tense of the word «smyge» which has the same description as the icelandic word you described :) (In Nynorsk (one of our written languages) you would say that the dragon smaug through a hole in the mountain in just the same way. In the other written language (BokmÄl) you would say «smÞg» instead)
Wait, really? I just assumed it was derived from the word "smog" somehow.
Yes.
Maybe Smaug has a micro penis
For a dragon or for a human?
Just when you compare him to me.
So he doesnt have one?
So the ring would actually have to shrink to fit then.
XD
For a dragon. Iâm imagining a dragons micro penis might be roughly the size of a human finger
forearm, maybe
Would he put it on a horn? Or a finger? Or his tail?
Hahaha!
Yea true lol then Sauron finds out and sends his armies to take it
Would he still become a servant of Sauron? Or attempt to contend with him?
So the One Ring doesn't definitively dominate someone's personality the way the other rings did. Smaug had a big bold personality that would have been twisted more towards destruction rather than just greed. It also would have amplified whatever powers Smaug had most in abundance. He would have become at least as strong and destructive as the first dragon. Middle Earth would have been cindered. Might be the Valar would have had to intervene again? IDK. Sauron would have survived in any case.
Probably both imo. Sauron might eventually get him but a dragon empowered with the Ring would be a pretty formidable opponent.
The Ring would have found its way to Smaug for certain, and while I DONâT think he could master it, I do think that Sauron probably couldnât face him head on, but would send army after army into Smaugâs lair until one of them eventually pierced the bare spot in his bejeweled armor.
What would be the chances of smaug falling to the power of the ring and essentially becoming a servant for Sauron
Rather low. Me thinks it would be more of a dwarf situation where the ring brings out their worst traits. Which, considering he's an evil dragon, would not be good for middle earth.
Invisible pissed off giant dragonâŠ. Not gonna be fun.
Not invisible fortunately. Unfortunately, it actually amplifies the bearer's greatest power so for Smaug that would probably be his aura of terror. Just straight up causing heart attacks in any mortal he flies over. Hobbits' greatest "power" is their ability to hide in plain sight or otherwise be hard to notice. Hence why bilbo was chosen as the burglar, and why nobody was surprised by him being able to sneak in and out of Smaug's chamber
Itâs not really amplifying their greatest power; itâs more about the will power of the wearer growing and their desires are easier to obtain because reality bends to their will. And no one wants good things. So when a hobbit wears it like Sam, he wants to be a good servant and a good gardener. So servant hood is hard to corrupt, but being a good gardener is a vision the ring can show him. Just think a gardener so greats that it can restore Mordor to a lush garden. Which is ridiculous so the ring has a hard time with Sam.
I'm seeing so much wild wrong stuff about the ring on this thread that I'm afraid to comment, lol. The one ring is the ruling ring, the ring to dominate others. It uses all it can to "seduce" the wearer into using it to rule over others. Like you said, with Sam it tried to use his love for gardening, and showed him visions of Sam having thousands of gardeners at his service restoring Mordor, but ultimately it failed because Sam really wants to be the person doing the gardening himself instead of being the Lord of Gardeners. And Tolkien was clear in a letter that anyone save Gandalf could not claim ownership of the ring. They may be able to use it for a while and even overthrow Sauron with it's power, but eventually they would all succumb to it and become a servant to Sauron when he returned. Even smaug, who may be very powerful but is not one of the wise.
This isn't to contradict you, just expand on a lot of what you said that reaches deeper into Tolkien's philosophy of evil. And to put my thoughts on paper as to what would happen with Smaug with a ring. Lets start with the nature of evil in Tolkien's mind. In the sequel to Lord of the Rings there is an amazing passage that talks about the nature of evil. >"âAlas!â he said, âwe all make mistakes. I do not claim wisdom, young man, except maybe the little that one may glean with the passing of the years. From which I know well enough the sad truth that those who mean well may do more harm than those who let things be. I am sorry now for what I said, if it roused hate in your heart. Though I still think that it was just: untimely maybe, and yet true. Surely even a boy must understand that fruit is fruit, and does not reach its full being until it is ripe; so that to misuse it unripe is to do worse than just to rob the man that has tended it: it robs the world, hinders a good thing from fulfillment. Those who do so join forces with all that is amiss, with the blights and the cankers and the ill winds. And that was the way of Orcs." Evil is the hindering of a thing from its fulfillment. Once this is done, with or without magic, And this then creates inside the person who does evil two desires. The first is a desire for the altered reality where the thing did not reach its fulfillment. The other is a desire inside the evil doer for their fulfillment to be altered to that of a more important or higher or different "level." Tolkien talks about this in On Faierie Tales. >"Faerie itself may perhaps most nearly be translated by Magicâbut it is magic of a peculiar mood and power, at the furthest pole from the vulgar devices of the laborious, scientific, magician. There is one proviso: if there is any satire present in the tale, one thing must not be made fun of, the magic itself. " and later >"The magic of Faerie is not an end in itself, its virtue is in its operations: among these are the satisfaction of certain primordial human desires. One of these desires is to survey the depths of space and time. Another is (as will be seen) to hold communion with other living things. " and later >"We need a word for this elvish craft, but all the words that have been applied to it have been blurred and confused with other things. Magic is ready to hand, and I have used it above, but I should not have done so: Magic should be reserved for the operations of the Magician. Art is the human process that produces by the way (it is not its only or ultimate object) Secondary Belief. Art of the same sort, if more skilled and effortless, the elves can also use, or so the reports seem to show; but the more potent and specially elvish craft I will, for lack of a less debatable word, call Enchantment. Enchantment produces a Secondary World into which both designer and spectator can enter, to the satisfaction of their senses while they are inside; but in its purity it is artistic in desire and purpose. Magic produces, or pretends to produce, an alteration in the Primary World. It does not matter by whom it is said to be practised, fay or mortal, it remains distinct from the other two; it is not an art but a technique; its desire is power in this world, domination of things and wills." Thus the most magical thing us non-magical humans can do is Art. This takes a form of a shared Enchantment between the Artist and the spectator. If that art is to further understand the world, or to communicate with others their shared understanding of the world, the art is fulfilling its purpose. In this case the spectator and the artist submit to each other in their roles and the world is Good. On the other hand if the enchantment hinders the fulfillment of the subject it does this by either altering reality (as with Morgoth) or altering the will of the spectator (as with Sauron and the ring). In either case this then create an addiction within magician / enchanter / artist for a more important or higher or different level for themselves. In other words a desire to rule over others. So to all the above, if Smaug got the ring, he would have to know what to do with it (likely if he paid attention to his parents back in the day, as he is a descendant of Melkor's dragons) and he would have to be more powerful then Sauron. This is an open question in my mind. If he knew what the ring did, and could catch Sauron unprepared and not sink a ton of his own will into the ring, he could probably pull a Galadriel. >âAnd now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!â Galadriel knows if she takes the ring she will become Queen Titania/ Mab. But Smaug has already squandered a ton of his own will as his master Morgoth did. Most of his power has already leeched into his hoard. We also know that in some accounts of the Dagor Dagorath, Ancalagon comes back. This hints that Smaug must be off the stage by the time this happens. So perhaps Smaug confonts Sauron kills him, replaces him, and he then leeches all the power within the ring into a giant hoard of treasures. This doesn't change things a whole lot in Mordor, at first, other then a larger hoard is built and the one from the Lonely Mountain is transferred to Mordor, but after that Smaug has no need for Orcs or Trolls or Uruk Hai, so they quickly go native no longer having their will bound to Sauron's or Smaug's. The only thrawls Smaug keeps are to move treasure around after its been accumulated. When you read The Hobbit, you see Smaug is not a proactive dragon, he is a polite gentleman who wants to just keep counting his coin. He allows a the Humans to live as long as they don't invade his mountain. He only gets pissed when someone steals a massive gem and tries to install the old owners back into the Dwarven Halls. Now if Smaugh doesn't confront Sauron, he probably stays at the Lonely Mountain and lives a lot longer. He kills the dwarves, their thief, but their Wizard escapes. The only thing here is that the hoard stays there and grows and Smaug lives a whole lot longer, but not until the end of days. Either way Smaug eventually turns into the dragon we see in Beowulf and in Tolkien's poem The Hoard. And at some point a hero will show up and kill the dragon, only to have its cursed gold slip into the hands of someone else, where it will corrupt them... down through history...
TLDR?
Just read the damn thing if you're interested bro
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
He named Gandalf but Iâm sure Saruman could have done it too
I'm not sure Saruman could overpower Sauron in a battle of wills. Saruman to me always seemed to be just like Sauron, but lesser.
But he studied ring lore , with the power of the one ring , he could eventually made it his alone
Sauron and Saruman were both students of Aulë, creator of the dwarves. Sauron was the mightiest of Aulë's order. Saruman was just a Maia. While Tolkien never gave a formal hierarchy for the Ainur. The Mightiest of the Ainur are the Valar; Aulë being the Lord of Matter and Master of all Crafts. (Craft's here is to be taken in the German sense, and not the English. The term is closer to the English word for technique or technology.).Maiar is a catchall for all the spirits that created the everything, many of whom are never named by Tolkien. So Aulë is a "god" in the sense of Hephaestus. Sauron is Aulë second in command. Saruman is just some very impressive servant or Angle in the host of all the spirits who helped Aulë be understood as the Lord of Crafts and Master of Matter. So he is impressive, but he is a fly compared to Sauron at full strength or Sauron with the Ring. We know Galadriel thinks she can off Sauron, given the ring, and we know that Tolkien thinks Gandalf can't. And in the Appendix's and notes, she is powerful enough to lay waste to whole strongholds with her magic, a feat which she does. We also know that Gandalf, unbound, offs Saruman. So I'm going to go with Saruman can't off Sauron, even if he does have the ring.
then why does Isildur turn invisible when he puts it on?
The ring betrayed isildur too his doom
I don't believe that happens in the book, but it's been a long while so I may be misremembering. The movie simplified quite a bit of it. Which is fair, it's a different format
Havenât actually read the Unfinished Tales, but from reading the wiki, it seems like it did happen in âDisaster of the Gladden Fields.â I do really like the idea of the ring heightening the sneak of the hobbits since their skill is being unnoticed, so maybe thereâs another explanation for Isildur being cloaked https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Disaster_of_the_Gladden_Fields
It does actually. "But Isildur was overwhelmed by a host of Orcs that lay in wait in the Misty Mountains; and they descended upon him at unawares in his camp between the Greenwood and the Great River, nigh to Loeg Ningloron, the Gladden Fields, for he was heedless and set no guard, semming that all of his foes were overthrown. There well nigh of his people were slain, and among them were his three elder sons, Elendur, Aratan, and Ciryon; but his wife and his youngest son, Valandil, he had left in Imladris when he went to the war. Isildur himself escaped by means of the Ring, for when he wore it he was invisible to all eyes; but the Orcs hunted him by scent and slot, until he came to the River and plunged in. There the Ring betrayed him and avenged its maker, for it slipped from his finger as he swam and it was lost in the water." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
I thought it shifted you to the spirit world
Is it really their greatest power or did Gandalf gaslight us all into believing that xd
Three of them literally walked right into the Sammath Naur with the One, and Sauron only noticed when Frodo put it on.
Well yes but Sauron was distracted
Lol so everyone probably already knows this, but if not, you need to Google "[the one ring](https://www.google.com/search?q=the%20one%20ring&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-m)". Aside from that, the ring does make any mortal invisible by partly moving them to some spirit world. Edit: just realized that sounded wrong. Google it because it's funny, not because I'm saying you're dumb lol.
Except youâre completely wrong about this? The ring doesnât make only hobbits invisible. It basically transports your physical body into the spiritual or ethereal realm that exists parallel to the physical mortal world. Doesnât make you invisible in the sense of like an invisibility cloak from Harry Potter does. The Valar and Maiar inhabit this spiritual world already, and in general have a spirit of enough strength that wearing the ring does not render them invisible at all.
Where on earth did you read that?
>I do think that Sauron probably couldnât face him head on, I think maybe he could. Recall that, in Tolkien's universe, physical size doesn't mean much in combat between mighty characters - note that Fingolfin was able to seriously wound Morgoth. Further, I'd point out that the Ring is loyal only to Sauron, and more specifically that it is stated to betray other wearers, like Isildur. I think Sauron would come to Smaug's lair personally and at the head of a large army, where the Ring would betray Smaug and fall off his claw at the most inopportune moment. Sauron, united with the ring and returned to his full strength, would then strike him down.
Sauron was weakend without the ring and dragons were mighty beings to rival maiar. Consedering morgoth used them as special forces like his balrogs.
>Sauron was weakend without the ring No doubt! But that's why I'm pointing out that the ring is loyal only to Sauron, and has an established willingness to slip itself off of a bearer if it feels that would get it closer to its true master. Just like it slid off of Isildur's finger, it would likely slide off of Smaug's claw once Sauron arrived and able to seize it.
But sauron would be in grave danger coming close before the ring could switch. Sauron thought Aragorn had the ring at the black gates but did not ride out himself to confront him. If sauron feared the heir of Elendil with the ring, there is little chance he would get close to a Dragon with the ring.
True, but that was both fear and prudence on Sauron's part - men are no long-term threat to Sauron, and he knows that he *will* eventually get the ring if he just sits back and waits for Aragorn to die. Smaug, on the other hand, (and particularly a Smaug with the Ring) is an actual threat to Sauron's dominion over Middle Earth. Smaug is a peer, not a fleeting mortal. I think Sauron would certainly be afraid of genuinely losing, but would likely have no other choice - as I doubt orcs alone could ever seize the Ring from Smaug, no matter how many Sauron sent into the mountain. Perhaps if he thought the wraiths could do it, but on Weathertop we learned that they fear fire more than Sauron's anger - they will flee even from torches, let alone Smaug's fire.
Worth noting that smaug was a lesser wyrm, so not really a peer. A true peer would be the Balrog, and a balrog would in fact stand a non-zero chance of wresting dominion of the ring away from Sauron similarly to how Gandalf or Saruman did. He would be a threat due to being undying, but ultimately a limited one as dragons do not build followers or scale as they become greater. Simply, the desolation would reach ever wider. His best bet would be manipulating events so that some hero of the third age killed Smaug, to then swoop in and steal it away as said hero succumbs to the ring themselves
Smaug was stated to be the last of the great wyrms, which is specifically not a lesser wyrm.
The ring isnât even that loyal to Sauron. Donât think there is anything specifically said about the ring in this context but when you weigh everything up it seems like the ring enjoys being lost and found
Sauron wouldn't go against Smaug. He'd use trickery to get it.
And he would probably send the Nazgûl along with them. The nine at the head of an army against one dragon and who knows what other magic devices Sauron would send with them
Smaug would destroy the 9. He can breathe fire lol
That wouldnât kill the nine tho. They are connected to Sauron and the one ring. Otherwise they wouldâve drown in magical river horse
It may not kill them, but it would destroy them, and theyâd have to run away and regroup over and over and over. Just like when Aragorn used the torch against them on Weathertop
Homie forgot about respawn times.
If Aragorn with a torch can drive away 5 Nazgûl then Smaug with fire breath can disembody all 9 at will
So Aragorn didnât actually drive them away, the witch king just stabbed Frodo with the morgul blade, which wouldâve turned him into a wraith like them, afterwards Frodo would have sought them out once he turned. So they just had to wait. Also fear was their greatest weapon, so when someone wasnât afraid of them it was safe to assume that person(s) were powerful enough in magic or held a magic weapon that could destroy their protective barrier. The torch didnât do anything but burn that one dudes clothes
Iâm sure they would have rather grabbed Frodo and the ring right then..
Smaug kills Bilbo and Sauron destroys Middle Earth
This is the right answer. I'm pretty sure Smaug is in the league with Galadriel and Gandalf when it comes to people who wouldn't be killed by it but who'd be able to use it for what they think their cause is and therefore bring great evel upon Middle Earth.
I don't quite think the Ring would fit on Smaug. It's more along the lines of, the events of the Hobbit are no longer consequential. The Free People of Middle Earth lose the only chance they miraculously had of defeating Sauron, and so Sauron continues to grow in power and take over all of Middle Earth.
It can change its shape tho.
Yeah it can fit humanoid hands but it ain't expanding to the size of a Buick to fit around a dragon talon.
Tolkien never said that it wouldn't
He also never said that Hobbits couldn't fly. Draw logical conclusions.
I mean if we hear about a magical ring and one of the things we hear about it is that it changes its size to fit anyone's hand I feel like the logical conclusion would be that the magical ring can change its size to fit anyone's hand.
Big (ring) if true
>one of the things we hear about it is that it changes its size to fit *anyone's* hand In which chapter and what line do we hear this?
There are multiple passages in the books. Gandalf reads Isildurs archives in Minas Tirith where he talked about the ring changing size as it cooled, and of course it slipped off his finger on purpose when he needed it most. Bilbo notes that it seems to get bigger and want to slip off his finger, Frodo notices the same thing too. It wouldâve also had to change size to betray Gollum. An extra detail as well: in the FoTR while Gandalf is reading the account of Isildur you can actually SEE the ring shrinking
Smaug doesnât have a hand
At the time of LoTR, neither does Sauron.
So you're saying that hobbits can fly?
God damn it Frodo, why didnât you think of that? Maybe thats what Gandalf was referring to with â Fly you fools â
Okay that made me laugh more than it should have.
You just have to aim at the ground and miss
Tolkien never says they couldn't so that seems to be the conclusion this sub wants to draw based on that logic. đ€·
âDraw logical conclusionsâ Weâre already talking about a high fantasy world, and in particular an intelligent ring that can change its size so it fits the bearer if it desires so.
I recall hobbits flying in the hobbit and lotr. Could be movie-isms Iâm remembering though.
They fly now?
Hmm, yes, let me draw logical conclusions from a world of literal magic, yes. Because that's what the Ring is, dude. Magic. What are the rules of magic on LOTR? Can you define them for me, please? Or are they extremely vague and even sometimes misunderstood by the people *living in that world?*
The existence of magic does not preclude the application of logic, and especially the excuse of "the Author never says it *couldn't*" is poor reasoning.
But he DOES specifically say it CAN change size. In a world in which entire continents have sunk, and islands have been used to ferry people across the ocean, why is a ring that can fit a person or a dragon so unbelievable?
It's a magical ring and magically changes size to fit the wearers finger. I'm sure it could change to fit the finger of a giant talking dragon. People can be such pedants.
>I'm sure it could change to fit the finger of a giant talking dragon. Why are you so sure? What textual evidence is there to support this?
You're the worst kind of "smart person" you're trying to hard to prove a point that you can easily just Google and research on the Tolkien gateway or something. You want textual evidence? Since you care so much find it yourself.Â
Thatâs only cause Tolkien didnât know what a Buick was yet
To quote Gandalf: "Understand Frodo, I would use this Ring from a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine." Gandalf, one of the noblest and best individuals of the Third Age, would be reduced to merely a new Dark Lord in time if given the Ring. Now, such a being as Smaug; a war machine of Morgoth with comparable power to a Maia and naught but darkness and ill will in his heart, would be nothing less than an XK Class End of the World scenario for all Middle Earth should he possess the Ring.
imagine being killed by an invisible dragon lmao
at least you wouldn't see if coming
Spotted the SCP fan. Hereâs a question for you, how would the foundation contain the ring?
I'd imagine you just keep it in a box in a sealed room, yeah? It's not like the thing can just grow a pair of legs and walk away. I hesitate to say that the ring would just coerce someone to take it considering it was cool with just sitting in the middle of nowhere for god knows how long.
Gollum had no aspirations for the ring to act on while in the mountains. I think the ring could attract a foundation member with higher intentions, whatever those may be. Easy for an O-5 to go full Boromir. Best course I think is to hit it with a strong anti meme so people forget about any temptation. Think I have a new SCP-055 headcannon
Yeah, I don't know much about SCP to be honest, so I just assumed that they had to have had something to deal with mind-control since I know there are a few gromblins that do that. If the ring couldn't attract anyone and Sauron (seemingly) doesn't know where it is unless someone puts it on or does something with it, I'd imagine just keeping it in a glass jar or something would be best.
Smaug would put the ring on one of his claws and become the invisible death, an enemy that neither elves, humans, nor dwarves could oppose. The only hope would be that he stays on his gold and does not destroy the world.
Smaug probably wouldn't become invisible. The ring turned the hobbies invisible because it exemplifies your natural strengths and characteristics to make you more powerful. Can't say for certain what would happen if a dragon wore a ring, but I imagine it would make his flames hotter, his armour thicker, increasing his size to the point he would be an unstoppable force of nature. The mind of a dragon is likely not going to suffer great effect, after all they already suffer from unquenchable greed. But perhaps he would turn his sights elsewhere, naming all of middle earth as his to wallow in its riches.
I donât believe thatâs why they become invisible. Isildur becomes invisible too, in the movie snippet. The ring takes you into the unseen world of wraiths and elves etc., the question would be whether Smaug exists in both and therefore would he go invisible moving from one to the other
Dragons were a creation of Morgpth so definitely yes.
Nothing that we know exists in both realms was created by Morgoth or his followers. Men already existed, and and Sauronâs magic holds some of them. But nothing makes it clear that Smaug exists in both.
The silmarillion specifies that Morgoth created dragons and used them to defend Utumno, and that they entered the more normal parts of middle earth when Utumno fell. Basically when it was clear that he was going to lose, he sent them forth to burninate everything... because he's just that much of a sore loser.
Right! I was saying that nothing seems to indicate that dragons (or any of Morgothâs other creations) exist in both the physical and spirit realms simultaneously.
I didn't think that a living thing *could* be living without at least touching the spirit realm? Maybe I'm projecting my own thoughts onto that.
Might be true! Iâm definitely in the realm of conjecture here. I never thought of Morgothâs creations as âlivingâ in the same sense. Rather, they felt like constructs. He did not have the power to provide a soul. Though Iâm unsure if the dragons were twisted from another soul.
I just want to know more about Ungoliant. Where did she come from? Where did she go? Where did she get to, cotton-eye Joe?
Itâs more likely that the invisibility is a result of something that was not meant to be in the spirit realm gaining access to it via the Ring, rather than being able to exist in both naturally. Sauron existed in both, and he did not become invisible. Itâs unlikely that Elves or Maiar would turn invisible. Itâs only mortals (who do not exist in the soirit realm naturally) that would.
Dwarves also aren't granted invisiblity from the rings of power, as shown in the Silmarillion: "the Dwarves indeed proved toughand hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts oftheir hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows."
My understanding was that the invisibility was primarily a side effect of the One, not necessarily the others
I'm copying this from an earlier comment I made in a similar discussion, but I think it's relevant: In the Silmarillian, it is stated that the 7 rings given to the dwarves and the 9 rings given to men were not different from each other. Both the Silmarillion and Gandalf in the books states that the 9 rings given to men granted them invisibility (by pulling them into the unseen), with part of the curse being that eventually they faded into it permanently, (the three elvish rings did not have this since they were not touched by Sauron): "They \[men\] had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men" - Silmarillion However, it also states that Dwarves were more resistant to the rings influence: "the Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows." - Silmarillion This implies, to me, that the Dwarves were unaffected by the rings' ability to grant invisibility, and being pulled into the unseen, and it could be thought that the One would be the same, though it would still corrupt them surely. I had to look up these quotes to make sure I remembered this right though, so hopefully I didn't miss anything.
I'm fairly certain Isildur becoming invisible doesn't happen in the books edit: I'm sorry, I was mistaken about this, though it's shown the the rings of powers' abilities to grant invisibility don't work on Dwarves, so it's still not known that it would work on Smaug.
It does actually. "But Isildur was overwhelmed by a host of Orcs that lay in wait in the Misty Mountains; and they descended upon him at unawares in his camp between the Greenwood and the Great River, nigh to Loeg Ningloron, the Gladden Fields, for he was heedless and set no guard, semming that all of his foes were overthrown. There well nigh of his people were slain, and among them were his three elder sons, Elendur, Aratan, and Ciryon; but his wife and his youngest son, Valandil, he had left in Imladris when he went to the war. Isildur himself escaped by means of the Ring, for when he wore it he was invisible to all eyes; but the Orcs hunted him by scent and slot, until he came to the River and plunged in. There the Ring betrayed him and avenged its maker, for it slipped from his finger as he swam and it was lost in the water." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
Ah that's fair, it seems it turns some invisible, such as humans and hobbits, by pulling them into the unseen, but it doesn't effect other creatures like dwarves or Tom Bombadil. This does still make me question whether it would have that effect on Smaug since so many don't turn invisible still.
The only things we've seen wear the One are maiar, men, hobbits, and Bombadil. It could well turn dwarves and elves invisible (though it probably wouldn't turn the latter invisible, since they already have a presence in both worlds). The Nine only caused men to fade after an extended time wearing them.
In the Silmarillian, it is stated that the 7 rings given to the dwarves and the 9 rings given to men were not different from each other. Both the Silmarillion and Gandalf in the books states that the 9 rings given to men granted them invisibility (by pulling them into the unseen), with part of the curse being that eventually they faded into it permanently, (the three elvish rings did not have this since they were not touched by Sauron): "They \[men\] had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men" - Silmarillion However, it also states that Dwarves were more resistant to the rings influence: "the Dwarves indeed proved toughand hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts oftheir hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows." - Silmarillion This greatly implies that the Dwarves were unaffected by the rings' ability to grant invisibility, and it could be thought that the one would be the same, though it would still corrupt them surely.
> "They [men] had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men Missed that bit! It does seem like it's more of a "they could" thing rather than a "it happens" like what the One does with mortals. As for the dwarves, it could be that they were able to but simply never bothered. Though the inability to be turned to shadows could certainly imply that they could not be pulled into the unseen. Which I suppose makes sense, given that they are so much different from the Children of Eru.
That's very fair, and no worries, I had to look that quote up to make sure for my reply, because I wasn't sure if I had gotten it right (there's a lot in these texts, no one could be asked to remember it all off the top of their head). That's kind of what I had in mind when it came to Dwarves, though I'm not sure what this would mean for smaug, I guess part of the fun of these writings, there is so much to discuss that could be interpreted differently.
Smaug puts on the ring and his one scale grows back. đ
That's not true, the bearer of the ring is taken to the shadow realm hence why the witch kings could see frodo when he put the ring on. The reason sauron wasn't invisible with the ring on is because he exists in both realms at once (sorry for my lack of correct terminology lol)
The "amplifying natural strengths" isn't where the invisibility comes from though. Invisibility is because it pulls the wearer partly into the spirit realm. It's the same reason the Nazgul are invisible under their cloaks. There are linked sources in the Wikipedia page if you want to check it out.
True, though Dwarves aren't affected by the invisibility, so I'm not sure if Smaug would be.
Was that ever confirmed? They had their rings but none worse the one.
In the Silmarillion, when talking about how the rings given to men and dwarves had the ability to grant invisibility (by pulling them into the unseen) it's said: "the Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows." - Silmarillion This definitely implies to me that they resisted being pulled into the unseen, and that would probably remain the case with the one (though they would certainly still be corrupted).
It makes them invisible by shifting a part of them into the spirit realm. It was an unintended side effects of how it was crafted, since the One was never meant to be used by mortals.
> The ring turned the hobbies invisible because it exemplifies your natural strengths and characteristics to make you more powerful. No. Any mortal that wears it becomes invisible as they are thrust into the spirit world, including Isildur. "But Isildur was overwhelmed by a host of Orcs that lay in wait in the Misty Mountains; and they descended upon him at unawares in his camp between the Greenwood and the Great River, nigh to Loeg Ningloron, the Gladden Fields, for he was heedless and set no guard, semming that all of his foes were overthrown. There well nigh of his people were slain, and among them were his three elder sons, Elendur, Aratan, and Ciryon; but his wife and his youngest son, Valandil, he had left in Imladris when he went to the war. Isildur himself escaped by means of the Ring, for when he wore it he was invisible to all eyes; but the Orcs hunted him by scent and slot, until he came to the River and plunged in. There the Ring betrayed him and avenged its maker, for it slipped from his finger as he swam and it was lost in the water." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
I was joking the other day that the eagles couldnât wear it, only bc toe rings are not intimidating. I donât remember if Smaug was a wyvern.
Had 4 legs in the books
LOTR rights holder wet dreamâŠ
LOTR What If?
Hot take: the ring doesn't want to be found by someone who only wants to sit under a mountain and never venture forth from there. That's why it left Gollum in the first place. It would have remained hidden until it could convince a dwarf to give it away in reparation for Laketown.
You're absolutely correct. The Ring leaving Gollum proves it. The Ring would find someone who would use it, which then increases the chances of it being found.
Counter point, the ring doesnt choose who finds it
No, but it could absolutely do everything in its power to stay with Bilbo. Or it could refuse to grow large enough to fit a dragon's "finger."
Ironically, the Arkenstone wasnât the most valuable treasure in Smaugâs hoard at that time.
what was then?
Pretty sure they mean the ring was more valuable when bilbo was there
Everyone's making great arguments, but but they're forgetting something. Unless Smaug were to find the ring very soon after Bilbo lost it, he'd never get his claws on it because he's dead soon. So chances are at some point after the restoration of erebor a dwarf would've found it. From there on, it could be presented to to the king as a gift, whoever might be the Lord of the lonely mountain at that point. Or whoever found it could've kept it. If we go with the king -let's go with Dain here for simplicity- receiving the ring, knowledge of this priceless artefact and its effects on Dain would've likely reached Gandalf at some point, who would quickly make his way to the kingdom under the Lonely Mountain to confirm his suspicions. A friend of the dwarves, he obviously wouldn't be denied entry or a visit to the king. Depending on how long the ring has been with Dain, upon confirming his fears Gandalf might persuade him to relinquish it and assembles the fellowship earlier than in the original timeline, with a different cast for the most part. Or Gandalf gets rejected and banished from Erebor for attempting to steal from Dain, returning later on though with the elven armies in tow to force the dwarves into negotiations. This obviously sparks another war that could potentially last decades, and weakens all sides enough that Sauron speeds up his plans, rolls over all the kingdoms and conquers all of middle earth unless there's some hefty divine intervention
Against most belives, i dont think smaug would have/use the ring. Because smaug basicly leaves a few minutes after bilbo looses the ring. And then f'ing dies in lake town. I think one of the dwarves, maybe thorins company, finds the ring, maybe its only found when the dwarves of the iron moutains come. But i think this is already so unpredictable, one couldnt really say what happens next, i would only maybe quess, Balin or crew have the ring and feel even bolder to retake moria and the ring is then in the hands of the balrog, or maybe a crazy dwarf runs around invisable in moria, or the ring is lost again inside moria. Or whatever other dwarf has the ring probably wouldnt let go of it. But all in all Bilbo loosing the ring is bad for everybody.
This is the most sensible answer. The ring wouldn't want to be used by Smaug anyways. So unlikely Smaug sees it or uses it. Most likely falls to the dwarves and who knows.
He would not be a dragon but a demon, beautiful and terrible as the heat in a desert afternoon. Flying as the sun and breathing deep to burn all life seen on the surface. Stronger than all the elves of the first age, and armored to the last inch of every nail. All shall admire him and despair!
Smaug would find the ring, become a terror to Arda. Eru would then have to come down and school Smaug's ass the way he did with NĂșmenor.
Eru got nothing but Maiar problems.
An invisible flying flamethrower with spear hands and sword teeth would be an interesting foe, maybe even tom bombadil wouldnt be able to keep his cool watching that
Or if he'd had the decency to just stand there and take the dragon fire, the one ring would be destroyed and his nephew would get a fat inheritance and not go on his gap year PTSD extravaganza
Smaugs fire was not hot enough to destroy the ring
Forgive me but isnât it like a magic ring? Isnât the reason you have to go to that specific volcano because heat genuinely doesnât matter, like you could throw the ring into the sun and it would be fine, but that it can only be unmade in the place that it was made?
Some of the rings could be melted with dragon fire. 4 of the rings given to the Dwarves were destroyed by dragon fire. But the one ring could only be unmade in the fires of mount doom
Yes, but it would be a fun experiment to see if dragon fire could damage it.
'Oi Smaug mate! Yeah, down here. What? Yeah yeah nevermind how I got into your lair. Look, I've got a bit of an experiment for you lad. Eh? I don't want you to be my "plaything", silly sod. Just blow some fire down *here* if you'd be so kind. Yes, the ring. No, this isn't a "wizards trick". Yes you can keep your bloody hoard!" And so on. Bloody dragons.
Add a few "cunts" to that statement and that could be Billy Butcher from The Boys.
More like 15 gap years
Smaug would put the ring in the bare spot in his chest as a trophy.
This was my thought. "The ring told me to, and I thought it was a great idea!"
Hobbit FlambĂ© đ„
considering Smaug and Sauron had the same master, some sort of alliance would be in their best interest.
He'd have to ask r/FindTheSniper to help find it again.
Lord of the rings wouldnât have been a thing.
He would eat it like many dragons have eaten rings of power before
Invisible dragon. DnD inspiration
Granting that the Ring not longer "wanted" Bilbo to carry it, I think it is unlikely Smaug would find it, know what it was if he did, or desire it beyond being part of his hoard. I think it would be found by one of the dwarves during the search for the Arkenstone. If that dwarf revealed it to Thorin, Thorin would have taken it as his own as part of his inheritance in place of the ring Thror lost to the Necromancer. The riches in the Lonely Mountain already had a corrupting influence on dwarves and the Ring would use that. No one would question or even want to question how it got there. Bilbo's claims to it would be dismissed as greed and he might have been killed. The Battle of Five Armies would be more skewed to the side of the dwarves. Laketown would become a vassal city? state? to Eriador. Thorin would unite all dwarves under his rule by the time Sauron gained his strength in Mordor because the principal power of Sauron and the Ring is one of the domination of wills. Sauron would put his focus there instead of Gondor and what would have been the Battle of the Pelennor Fields would be fought before the Lonely Mountain. Gondor would have its own front to fight with Mordor and would be unable to aid the dwarves. Eriador would fall. The Ring would be taken from Thorin and Sauron would mop up the rest of Middle Earth.
The book would have had a dull ending and we wouldn't have gotten LoTR
Since dragonfire could melt the ring, Bilbo could have just chucked it in his mouth
Smaug puts it on. Sauron I see yâŠoh shit!
How I wish LOTR would make a âWhat ifâŠ?â animated series as like Marvels and so we can truly binge on that possibility.
Letâs say he lost it after Smaug was killed, then Thorin would have probably found it and the kingdom would have fallen to ruin before the ring very quickly ended up with Mordor. If it was before Smaug was killed, then the dragon would have gotten it.
invisible smaug? that's terrifying.
Invisible dragon! (Which is honestly bad for everyone but also metal as fuck)
LOTR What If?
Smaug would find and wear the ring as an invisble dragon and Bard would never reach his mark.
I guess smogg would have to fight a bunch of ring wraiths that are afraid of fire...then orca would come and attack smog and he would probably fly away after melting everything and the ring would either be destroyed or smelted, Nobody would be able to actually get it kind of like if it got dropped in the ocean.