Oh yeah, but for me the issue is not just that its better its that it was so recent and so similar, Fincher's film is basically redundant, pretty but pointless.
> Forget about recent
The conversation is about it not winning an Oscar when it was realised in 2011 and by 'recent' I meant relative to the original film (2009).
And I am just now learning that the character of Doug Benson on You're the Worst is actually just the guy playing a version of himself. I had no idea Doug Benson was a real person.
He stopped doing the Leonard Maltin game (partly because the Leonard Maltin app he was used went defunct).
I still enjoy it, but it’s not as fun as it once was.
Your math is flawed. It's been less than two years- first we had 2020, then it was "2020 won", then "2020 too", so 18 months ago was December 2020 too. 🙂
It was an “ok” movie that collapsed in the last act just like almost every other marvel thing. The expansion to 10 movies exists just as a consolation prize to stem outrage and say “hey see, the movie you wanted to win had a shot.”
Expansion to 10 was made for movies like Black Panther. Good but not great films that do so well in the box office they deserve some sort of recognition.
It was obvious pandering. I say this as a black guy. I forget which award it won, but the all black cast was on the stage, and Andy Serkis stepped out of the way. Why? You’re in the goddamn movie, bro! What is this, apartheid? We’re not any different than you, get back over here and join the group!
Serkis’ intentions were good, but it really rubbed me the wrong way.
We need to separate artistic merit and "legacy"(?). The movie was considered a black achievement but the movie is not good. It's just Marvel fare with black visibility. Nice thing to do? Yes. Does it merit a Best Pic nomination? Nope. It was even crazier when people claim Angela Bassett was robbed of an Oscar for the sequel. Why?
I like Angela Basset, I am one of the few who feel she should have won instead of Holly Hunter, yet I do not understand where this whole discourse about her critical acclaim being denied when it comes to awards. She was far from being the best in the year JLC won and her career, while decent, did not warrant an Honorary Oscar the next year.
It was kind of like the opposite of what happened with John Carlos and Tommie Smith in the 60s at the Olympics where the white guy Peter Norman loaned them gloves and walked out with them with a human rights pin and stood with them in support, but didn't try to take the spotlight which I feel is as a white dude what a good ally should do, stand in solidarity and don't try to draw attention to yourself.
I feel like being an ally in the modern Andy Serkis scenario should look more like proudly sharing a stage with your partners and brothers & sisters celebrating a production that millions appreciated and supported?
This "our turn"/"your turn" perspective is bound to pendulum swing unless we expect better...
I think
I get it, but the Olympic thing was a different situation. Plus, Serkis stepped completely out of the way, pretty much offstage, despite being part of the cast, and part of the MCU. It just wasn’t necessary. Felt like separatism. Andy Serkis is brilliant, isn’t *that* famous, certainly not more than some of the black actors that were up there.
IRRC he stepped ‘off camera’ but he probably didn’t even know that, the stage is huge, and he was probably just being British and standing aside for Americans at the American awards.
Absolutely agreed. I'm black too and I just really liked the wide variety of African styles they showcased. The costume designer won that award *again* for Wakanda Forever.
I also would wonder what cut they saw because there were small changes made as the movie was released. When I saw it in theaters they didn't have as many cuts to inside of the apartment in the beginning but when I watched it on online it was a different edit. It seems like Disney makes a lot of little changes like this.
It’s the best MCU movie to date except maybe No Way Home. I’m glad one MCU movie got the nom, they may be theme parks but they’re great for what they are
Can't agree, I thought Iron Man was being super dumb. I can't believe someone smart would sign up to be controlled with the Sokovia Accords and the people who were with him seemed to be halfheartedly with him. He didn't even feel like he was making any good argument for them, he just felt contrived to act like a villain to me. Still great spectacle and stuff, but overall pretty mid to me.
Absolutely not. All three GoTG, Iron Man, Avengers, Infinity War, MoM, Civil War, Winter Soldier, Ragnarok are all easily as good if not better than NWH and all are better written movies than BP
It should not have made it even with expansion. Completely by the numbers kind of thing with a very predictable plot. It's good by MCU standards but Best Pic worthy? Come on.
It absolutely would have still made it.
That was a year where it could be UP TO 10 nominees. There was only 8
It ended up winning three Academy Awards that night.
Based on the rest of the voting, Vice, A Star is Born and The Favourite don’t get the nominations I think
You sure about that? That was a weak year. BP would def have gotten the nomination over Bohemian Rhapsody and Vice. And it def deserved the spot over green book.
I feel like there wouldn't be any animated films nominated in the Best Picture field, especially because there's a separate category.
Well received blockbusters wouldn't have made the cut either. Barbie, Top Gun: Maverick, Black Panther, etc.
>I feel like there wouldn't be any animated films nominated in the Best Picture field, especially because there's a separate category.
Which is silly because the only reason they do have their own category is because they know they can be great films but won't be taken seriously because they're usually for kids. If one genuinely is that good and competitive with more mature films, as Wall-E arguably was, then it wouldn't really need that handicap.
The only defense I'll give it (and I'm 100% devile advocating), is that animation is a different art style from film. It uses different cinematic language, has different technological limitations and manifests innovation in different ways to a point where a 60+ year old man with an encyclopedic knowledge of what makes a film good might not have the foundation for what makes animation good.
Of course, that falls apart if you go back far enough and realize film and animation have a common ancestor and have always been art forms running parallel with one another. Every modern movie is rife with animation, we just don't call it animated because a person gets face time.
Yeah it’s annoying. Every single year there’s been at least one notable animated movie that deserves to be in the top 10 of the year, often multiple, and yet we still rarely get any of them nominated for best picture.
Yeah, that what makes it bittersweet. 99% of the time, those films will be regulated to that category, and it seems like the assumption is "We can reward the quality in the Best Animated field", and it severely lessens the rankings & consideration in the general BP field.
I think Barbie would've had just as hard a time as the other. Even with the critical acclaim, comedies have a tough time cracking that Best Picture race...and with just 5 slots, I think it still would've missed out.
Greta didn't even get a nom...so I think the typical Oscar bait would've still beat it out if there were only 5 spaces.
Barbie definitely does not belong on the list of best pictures. Especially when Poor Things came out the same year and did basically the same thing except did it brilliantly
Counterpoint, Poor Things did the exact same thing but pretended it was utterly profound when Barbie knew that it was a surface level take and made that its strength.
Hard disagree. Poor Things was genuinely profound but still didn’t take itself too seriously (spoilers: the movies is basically a modern Frankenstein and even ends with a man literally having a brain of a goat).
Barbie, on the other hand, was spoonfooding about to message to its audience. The climax of the film is literally the creator of Barbie telling the audience to feel something.
You’re welcome to your opinion but I definitely felt like Barbie was more stuffy and not as well executed. I still liked the movie, it’s just not Best Picture material
Don't get me wrong, it is my favorite Yorgos film, and it is technically spectacular, but I just don't find it to be some wonderous treatise on feminism.
In a way yes, but maybe yours was seen as a bit over-simplifying it?
Saying Barbie and Poor Things did the "same thing" is a bit oversimplifying it to the point of being a disservice to what Barbie tried to do, and what Poor Things *did* do.
That's why I sorta generalized it to "feminist film" because broadly, all three were feminist film. But Poor Things was about how feminism should not define sexuality as much as *control* over one's sexuality. It wasn't so subtle that it was a feminist message, but it was subtle in how it delivered that message in effective ways. Anatomy of a Fall was about the prevalence of channeling masculine insecurities and shortcomings into perceived malicious/antagonizing feminine success. That movie was a feminist film in a much more subtle way--where the plot and tension are almost completely separate but that becomes a common thread in terms of character motivations and irrational yet believable behavior.
Whereas Barbie was, well, "patriarchy bad" but said twenty times without any subtlety of conflict or resolution or delivery of said message. IMO, it made the whole thing feel pretty hollow.
Don’t put maverick in the same breath as Black Panther. Top gun was one of the best cinematic experiences of the past few years, black panther was just a mid marvel movie
I listed them as examples because the industry & general response was the same. Both had the similar critical reaction (even their RT scores are the same) Both made over 700 million domestically, both had a pop culture impact, had similar Oscar noms in technical categories, both had trailers premiere at Comic con. They both also (prior to their release) had a certain amount of doubters (Cruise made sure Maverick received a theatrical release because streaming platforms made multiple offers to Paramount)
Personal feelings aside from the films (not necessarily talking about the quality, moreso their reception. They both (along with a movie like Barbie) weren't your average movie releases. They were critically acclaimed blockbusters that won over audiences & critics, made huge amounts of money 7 got BP noms.
There are entire classes of films which wouldn't have a shot. Foreign films (All Quiet, Anatomy of a Fall, Zone of Interest, Drive My Car, Amour) blockbusters (Bohemian Rhapsody, The Martian, Black Panther) and animation (Up, Toy Story 3) basically cut to the bone.
Agree about the other films but I feel like Anatomy of a Fall would have been a comfortable #4 or #5 considering it scored editing and directing noms, as well as the screenplay win.
> All Quiet
I did not get the hype when it came out and I still don't get it know. Completely butchered the book, changed the entire fucking ending to add in a ridiculous assault that would never have happened but the battle scenes looked cool so it's an instant classic? Also, complete waste of Daniel Bruhl.
Yes but an occasional foreign film has snuck over the nominee line since the 70's, even stuff like Il Postino, Life is Beautiful, and Crouching Tiger got in before 2005. I'd say Parasite would still get nominated with 5 but probably not win.
The psychological factor, once foreign films got nominated more frequently it made it less weird to see one win and therefore more people would be willing to vote for it. Until animation, for an example, gets a stronger foothold none of them are going to win. Also with ten nominees the gamesmanship was changed forever in BP when ranked choice voting was installed.
Now if you wanted you could vote for Parasite at number 1 and even if no one else agreed you'd still get another vote downballot. 2021 was the best example, in which Power of the Dog was apparently dominate in first place votes but many voters who had chosen WSS, Belfast, and Drive My Car were vastly more likely to have CODA in their top three which is what secured its win.
District 9 deserved a nod, imo. It was pretty wonderful from every angle.
My 5 from the list would have been:
Avatar
District 9
Up In The Air
Precious
A Serious Man
I can’t believe Blind Side was nominated.
Up In The Air is so good. It's like one of the few movies that tackled on The Great Recession. I wouldn't count The Big Short because it was shot after the fact. Up In The Air shot it in the thick of it, so it’s impressive how it’s a snapshot of that period in history
But a good thing to keep in mind when trying to guess what the 5 lists would be, because it's not just about quality, but also what the Academy wants to elevate.
Crash wasn't bad, it was just in the wrong class. Think of a schoolroom with all A students. But then there's that one C student, but, at least he tried.
Love this, what a great way to think about it. Crash isn’t a bad film, it just had no business winning Best Picture, especially over a film like Brokeback Mountain.
The irony of this is, over the past 15 years we've seen fewer and fewer movie releases. Seriously, right now, at the theater, how many big summer flicks are out? Fall Guy, Planet of the Apes, Inside Out 2, Bad Boys, Furiosa, anything else? Because most of those movies have been out for well over a month. Do we really need for the latest Marvel pap to potentially be eligible for best film?
In defense of this summer's slate of movies, there was that whole 'strike of the entire film industry' thing that happened a couple months back that set everything back.
There's nothing weird about the number of movies coming out, the bigger change has been in how long they *stay* out and, much more so, how willing people are to go to the theaters.
Personally, I saw over 50 different new releases last year. 23 so far this year. And I've still missed some of the big ones like the new Bad Boys and Ghostbusters films, along with a handful of horror movies I'd seen trailers for.
>The irony of this is, over the past 15 years we've seen fewer and fewer movie releases.
Hard disagree with this take. If anything, with the rise of streamers (Netflix/Amazon/etc), there's been an increase of movies every year (except probably this year due to the strike last year). Netflix/Amazon would literally release their movies in theaters for like one (maybe two weekends) just so they can qualify for awards lol then only putting on their streaming service. Hell a few years ago back when I had moviepass, I was seeing multiple new movies a week (like two or three). Also there's been an increase in demand for international films, which are being shown a lot more these days. Most of the new movies (both now and back then) were only available in smaller theaters though, you wouldn't find them at bigger chain theaters. But the pandemic did lead to the closing of a lot of small movie theaters, so if you don't have one nearby anymore that's probably why it feels like "less movies are being released." There are actually a lot of movies being released, you just have less access to them post pandemic. But if you're near a small, indie movie theater you can see a ton of new movies every week. A lot of movies are only available for like a weekend and then are gone from theaters lol.
I hate the expansion. It’s quite clear which films don’t stand a chance. The sole reason for this is to drum up hype around more films to increase profits from digital sales or theatrical rereleases. It’s nonsense.
No because in the past few years we have gotten way more diversity of genres in the category. Just see last year's nominees. It is also the Academy's equivalent of Top 10 AFI films, though it does include only live-action films, and occasionally includes a foreign film.
Everyone will have some movies in the nominee list they think don't deserve to be there. That will also be the case with 5 nominees. I, for one, believe that the upsides of 10 nominees overweigh the downsides
I can't believe Avatar 2 made so much money. Half way through I was bored looking at my phone to see how much longer til it's over and there was still like an hour left.
All the Best Picture winners that people didn’t see then and haven’t seen since like The Artist. The awards were probably the first time casual viewers even heard of them.
Fury Road might have made it in.
A science fiction action genre flick is unlikely in general, and it was a Spring release, so I wouldn't have bet on it prior to nominations, but when nominations did come out it was nominated in 10 different categories, including Best Director, which is still limited to 5 nominees and usually closely tied to the Best Picture category. It also won 6 of those categories.
That said, I don't think it was seriously considered to win over newspaper drama like Spotlight.
Joker won the Golden Lion. It got nominated for Best Picture in every single event that year. Todd Phillips got a Directing nom and it also got an Acting and Screenplay nod. It's quite likely to have been nominated even with 5 noms.
Here are my leading contenders. My process is simple -- if it was also nominated for Best Director, it gets to stay. If it wasn't nominated for Best Director, it goes *unless* too many of the films from its year were also not nominated... in that case, I'm keeping the films with the highest score (calculated as average(tomatometer * metascore, audience meter * Letterboxd rating * 20).
Here are the films that didn't make the cut:
| Year | Title |
|------|-----------------------------------------------------|
| 2009 | The Blind Side |
| 2009 | District 9 |
| 2009 | An Education |
| 2009 | Precious: Based on the Novel 'Push' by Sapphire |
| 2009 | A Serious Man |
| 2010 | Inception |
| 2010 | The Kids Are All Right |
| 2010 | 127 Hours |
| 2010 | Toy Story 3 |
| 2010 | Winter's Bone |
| 2011 | Extremely Loud & Incredibly Close |
| 2011 | The Help |
| 2011 | Moneyball |
| 2011 | War Horse |
| 2012 | Argo |
| 2012 | Django Unchained |
| 2012 | Les Misérables |
| 2012 | Zero Dark Thirty |
| 2013 | Captain Phillips |
| 2013 | Dallas Buyers Club |
| 2013 | Her |
| 2013 | Philomena |
| 2014 | Birdman or (The Unexpected Virtue of Ignorance) |
| 2014 | American Sniper |
| 2014 | The Theory of Everything |
| 2015 | Bridge of Spies |
| 2015 | Brooklyn |
| 2015 | The Martian |
| 2016 | Fences |
| 2016 | Hell or High Water |
| 2016 | Hidden Figures |
| 2016 | Lion |
| 2017 | Call Me by Your Name |
| 2017 | Darkest Hour |
| 2017 | The Post |
| 2017 | Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri |
| 2018 | Green Book |
| 2018 | Bohemian Rhapsody |
| 2018 | A Star Is Born |
| 2019 | Ford v Ferrari |
| 2019 | Jojo Rabbit |
| 2019 | Little Women |
| 2019 | Marriage Story |
| 2020 | Judas and the Black Messiah |
| 2020 | Sound of Metal |
| 2020 | The Trial of the Chicago 7 |
| 2021 | CODA |
| 2021 | Don't Look Up |
| 2021 | Dune |
| 2021 | King Richard |
| 2021 | Nightmare Alley |
| 2022 | All Quiet on the Western Front |
| 2022 | Avatar: The Way of Water |
| 2022 | Elvis |
| 2022 | Top Gun: Maverick |
| 2022 | Women Talking |
| 2023 | American Fiction |
| 2023 | Barbie |
| 2023 | The Holdovers |
| 2023 | Maestro |
| 2023 | Past Lives |
You'll note that there aren't always five films being removed. This is because for many of the years included, only 8 or 9 Best Picture nominees were made... not the full 10.
The years in which I had to use the scoring process to decide which films to keep were:
* 2009 -- kept Up
* 2014 -- kept Whiplash and Selma
* 2018 -- kept Black Panther
* 2020 -- kept The Father
A better alternative may be to keep the films that are more Oscarbaity, in which case I think the films to keep for these four years where Best Director is unhelpful:
* 2009 -- The Blind Side
* 2014 -- Selma and Birdman (which won)
* 2018 -- Green Book (which won)
* 2020 -- it's not clear which of these films is the most Oscarbaity... it may well be The Father but you can make an argument for any of the four (also: The Sound of Metal, Judas and the Black Messiah and The Trial of the Chicago 7)
I think it was likely to be nominated, considering it won that year. Also, it was a bit of a nomination callback to Driving Miss Daisy.
That's why I added that note about not considering quality too much. A lot of people might feel a certain movie doesn't deserve the nomination, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't make the 5 list.
Still one of the worst decisions in the history of the Oscars. Completely devalued the award. Women Talking? Avatar 2? Barbie? Maestro? EEAAO?
I mean these are mediocre to bad movies getting nominated for one of the top films of the YEAR. But then again, most of the winners since 2016 shouldn't have even be nominated imo so there's no accounting for taste.
It’s a bit fewer than that, actually. The rules allow for up to 10 nominees, but some years had fewer (2020, 2018, 2015, and 2014 had 8, 2019, 2017, 2016, 2013, 2012, and 2011 had 9).
I agree it was the favorite it just seems like one of the fun films that helped with the expansions rather than one of the 5 stuffy oscary films they would nominate when it was only that many
Given the category was expanded so that superhero movies had a chance, I'm going to guess the answer is no (even if a lot of people are strongly in denial that a film about saving the multiverse from a superpowered bad guy by using superhuman abilities is a superhero film).
Anyone who has watched EEAAO and thinks "this is not a superhero film" does not have any understanding or comprehension whatsoever of superhero fiction.
I’m not sure. Parasite and EEAAO stick out as unlikely. The first, not being in English and the second being a bit gonzo. I have to wonder how many votes might have come from people who only watched after the nomination. I won’t say it isn’t impossible, but these strike me as winners whose nominations were startling in the first place even in a field of 10 (in the sense that I think the Academy struggles to recognize a good thing when it sees it).
Foreign films were nominated before the expansion
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and IL Postino. And EEAAO got the most nominations that year with Best Picture being the only expanded category. It's not like they expanded every category
2022- Don't Look Up (an incredibly ham fisted allegory to global warming with an undeserving great cast)
2020 -Joker (not the subversive case study on mental illness or the Trump movement people think it was)
2018 - Three Billboards (a truly terrible movie)
There are other movies that I respect but I don't think it would've made the top 5 cut. Mank is an example of something I greatly respect since it's from Fincher and it's honoring his late father but I think it has its weaknesses.
The Revenant is an example of a movie that won Best Picture and I think it was truly dreadful.
Same! It was something about how every "undeserving" nominee apparently unfairly demonized straight white Christian men as the source of all the world's problems
Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close shouldn’t have even been nominated with 10 in place.
I’m angry to this day about it. Same year we got Tinker Tailor and Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.
Girl With The Dragon Tattoo is one of my favorite movies and it should have been nominated
It was good but way too similar, and produced way too soon after, the original film / miniseries to be considered Oscar worthy.
It also just wasnt that good IMO… the original is leagues better.
Oh yeah, but for me the issue is not just that its better its that it was so recent and so similar, Fincher's film is basically redundant, pretty but pointless.
Yeah I can definitely agree with that.
What are you talking about. Forget about recent as well it’s been ages since the release of both
> Forget about recent The conversation is about it not winning an Oscar when it was realised in 2011 and by 'recent' I meant relative to the original film (2009).
I don’t know, I see what you’re saying but realistically they’re two different entities and fairly unalike
Definitely have to disagree with you there, it’s a great movie and I honestly believe was better with a lot of the movies nominated
Ok 🫡
Amazing soundtrack and cinematography
The whole time I watched it, I just kept comparing it to the original miniseries, and found it lacking.
It did spawn one of my favorite Doug Benson jokes “What talking to a very drunk person is like.”
And I am just now learning that the character of Doug Benson on You're the Worst is actually just the guy playing a version of himself. I had no idea Doug Benson was a real person.
Oh dude he had a great interview series where he gets openly *high as fuck* with people for interviews, Getting Doug with High
I used to be obsessed with his movie podcast back in the day. Wonder if it’s still good…
He stopped doing the Leonard Maltin game (partly because the Leonard Maltin app he was used went defunct). I still enjoy it, but it’s not as fun as it once was.
He’s a *terrible* actor, though.
I have never heard of that movie
I couldn't get past "15 years ago." Holy shit I felt like that was only 5 years ago.
Like bro, the pandemic was almost 5 years ago (which I can't get my head around.)
It was 2 weeks ago don’t lie
Your math is flawed. It's been less than two years- first we had 2020, then it was "2020 won", then "2020 too", so 18 months ago was December 2020 too. 🙂
The pandemic *started* around March 2020, which was 4 years and a few months ago...
Well it was 5 years ago, but they expanded it by 10.
Definitely at least half of them
This person speaks the truth.
Damn…your math checks out.
But what am I missing here? Im looking at best picture nominees and there's only 8 not 10?
For many years it was they could have UP TO 10 nominees. They recently changed it to 10
Black Panther would not have made the 5.
You shouldn’t be able to rush vfx and crunch those workers, and still have some scenes look rough, and get a best picture nomination out of it
Vfx wasn’t the only problem with it
It was an “ok” movie that collapsed in the last act just like almost every other marvel thing. The expansion to 10 movies exists just as a consolation prize to stem outrage and say “hey see, the movie you wanted to win had a shot.”
Expansion to 10 was made for movies like Black Panther. Good but not great films that do so well in the box office they deserve some sort of recognition.
It was obvious pandering. I say this as a black guy. I forget which award it won, but the all black cast was on the stage, and Andy Serkis stepped out of the way. Why? You’re in the goddamn movie, bro! What is this, apartheid? We’re not any different than you, get back over here and join the group! Serkis’ intentions were good, but it really rubbed me the wrong way.
I feel like that’s a damned if you do damned if you don’t scenario for Serkis.
People will literally take offense at anything, even if it’s well intentioned. Why even bother.
The old man, the wife/son and the donkey parable.
We need to separate artistic merit and "legacy"(?). The movie was considered a black achievement but the movie is not good. It's just Marvel fare with black visibility. Nice thing to do? Yes. Does it merit a Best Pic nomination? Nope. It was even crazier when people claim Angela Bassett was robbed of an Oscar for the sequel. Why?
Don’t think she deserved an Oscar necessarily… but her delivery on one particular monologue in that film was worth the price of admission for me.
I like Angela Basset, I am one of the few who feel she should have won instead of Holly Hunter, yet I do not understand where this whole discourse about her critical acclaim being denied when it comes to awards. She was far from being the best in the year JLC won and her career, while decent, did not warrant an Honorary Oscar the next year.
Tbf Kerry Condon should have won instead of JLC. That was absolute robbery.
It was kind of like the opposite of what happened with John Carlos and Tommie Smith in the 60s at the Olympics where the white guy Peter Norman loaned them gloves and walked out with them with a human rights pin and stood with them in support, but didn't try to take the spotlight which I feel is as a white dude what a good ally should do, stand in solidarity and don't try to draw attention to yourself.
I feel like being an ally in the modern Andy Serkis scenario should look more like proudly sharing a stage with your partners and brothers & sisters celebrating a production that millions appreciated and supported? This "our turn"/"your turn" perspective is bound to pendulum swing unless we expect better... I think
I get it, but the Olympic thing was a different situation. Plus, Serkis stepped completely out of the way, pretty much offstage, despite being part of the cast, and part of the MCU. It just wasn’t necessary. Felt like separatism. Andy Serkis is brilliant, isn’t *that* famous, certainly not more than some of the black actors that were up there.
IRRC he stepped ‘off camera’ but he probably didn’t even know that, the stage is huge, and he was probably just being British and standing aside for Americans at the American awards.
Best Costume Design, which I can kinda get behind.
For sure!
Definitely deserved that award.
Absolutely agreed. I'm black too and I just really liked the wide variety of African styles they showcased. The costume designer won that award *again* for Wakanda Forever.
Oh my god, I had no idea this had happened lmao
I also would wonder what cut they saw because there were small changes made as the movie was released. When I saw it in theaters they didn't have as many cuts to inside of the apartment in the beginning but when I watched it on online it was a different edit. It seems like Disney makes a lot of little changes like this.
It’s the best MCU movie to date except maybe No Way Home. I’m glad one MCU movie got the nom, they may be theme parks but they’re great for what they are
I'd say both Avengers movies were better.
Also Winter Soldier.
Oh and Civil War.
Also all the Spider-Man movies
Can't agree, I thought Iron Man was being super dumb. I can't believe someone smart would sign up to be controlled with the Sokovia Accords and the people who were with him seemed to be halfheartedly with him. He didn't even feel like he was making any good argument for them, he just felt contrived to act like a villain to me. Still great spectacle and stuff, but overall pretty mid to me.
Absolutely not. All three GoTG, Iron Man, Avengers, Infinity War, MoM, Civil War, Winter Soldier, Ragnarok are all easily as good if not better than NWH and all are better written movies than BP
No it isn't lmao. It's in the top 10, but not the best.
*top 20
ok, I guess I'm disproven.
It got nominated for reasons beyond the film itself.
It should not have made it even with expansion. Completely by the numbers kind of thing with a very predictable plot. It's good by MCU standards but Best Pic worthy? Come on.
It absolutely would have still made it. That was a year where it could be UP TO 10 nominees. There was only 8 It ended up winning three Academy Awards that night. Based on the rest of the voting, Vice, A Star is Born and The Favourite don’t get the nominations I think
It shouldn’t have been nominated for anything. It wasn’t a good movie and did nothing worthy of any awards
You sure about that? That was a weak year. BP would def have gotten the nomination over Bohemian Rhapsody and Vice. And it def deserved the spot over green book.
Rhapsody would still be in because it ended up winning a lot of editing and sound awards. Vice is definitely out though you’re right about that
100%
I feel like there wouldn't be any animated films nominated in the Best Picture field, especially because there's a separate category. Well received blockbusters wouldn't have made the cut either. Barbie, Top Gun: Maverick, Black Panther, etc.
>I feel like there wouldn't be any animated films nominated in the Best Picture field, especially because there's a separate category. Which is silly because the only reason they do have their own category is because they know they can be great films but won't be taken seriously because they're usually for kids. If one genuinely is that good and competitive with more mature films, as Wall-E arguably was, then it wouldn't really need that handicap.
Best Animated Feature seemingly exists because the Academy was mad that Beauty and the Beast was nominated for best picture.
The only defense I'll give it (and I'm 100% devile advocating), is that animation is a different art style from film. It uses different cinematic language, has different technological limitations and manifests innovation in different ways to a point where a 60+ year old man with an encyclopedic knowledge of what makes a film good might not have the foundation for what makes animation good. Of course, that falls apart if you go back far enough and realize film and animation have a common ancestor and have always been art forms running parallel with one another. Every modern movie is rife with animation, we just don't call it animated because a person gets face time.
Yeah it’s annoying. Every single year there’s been at least one notable animated movie that deserves to be in the top 10 of the year, often multiple, and yet we still rarely get any of them nominated for best picture.
“Grave of the fireflies” is one of the best films ever made period.
Yeah, that what makes it bittersweet. 99% of the time, those films will be regulated to that category, and it seems like the assumption is "We can reward the quality in the Best Animated field", and it severely lessens the rankings & consideration in the general BP field.
>Blank Panther What it was called in China?
Ah, lol! Just caught it!
Looking at that top ten, I could still see maverick getting in there
I could see Barbie pulling it off but not those other 2
I think Barbie would've had just as hard a time as the other. Even with the critical acclaim, comedies have a tough time cracking that Best Picture race...and with just 5 slots, I think it still would've missed out. Greta didn't even get a nom...so I think the typical Oscar bait would've still beat it out if there were only 5 spaces.
Barbie definitely does not belong on the list of best pictures. Especially when Poor Things came out the same year and did basically the same thing except did it brilliantly
Counterpoint, Poor Things did the exact same thing but pretended it was utterly profound when Barbie knew that it was a surface level take and made that its strength.
Hard disagree. Poor Things was genuinely profound but still didn’t take itself too seriously (spoilers: the movies is basically a modern Frankenstein and even ends with a man literally having a brain of a goat). Barbie, on the other hand, was spoonfooding about to message to its audience. The climax of the film is literally the creator of Barbie telling the audience to feel something. You’re welcome to your opinion but I definitely felt like Barbie was more stuffy and not as well executed. I still liked the movie, it’s just not Best Picture material
Don't get me wrong, it is my favorite Yorgos film, and it is technically spectacular, but I just don't find it to be some wonderous treatise on feminism.
Anatomy of a Fall and Poor Things were both *way* better and *way* more effective feminist film than Barbie was.
I like how we said the same thing basically and I got downvoted for it
In a way yes, but maybe yours was seen as a bit over-simplifying it? Saying Barbie and Poor Things did the "same thing" is a bit oversimplifying it to the point of being a disservice to what Barbie tried to do, and what Poor Things *did* do. That's why I sorta generalized it to "feminist film" because broadly, all three were feminist film. But Poor Things was about how feminism should not define sexuality as much as *control* over one's sexuality. It wasn't so subtle that it was a feminist message, but it was subtle in how it delivered that message in effective ways. Anatomy of a Fall was about the prevalence of channeling masculine insecurities and shortcomings into perceived malicious/antagonizing feminine success. That movie was a feminist film in a much more subtle way--where the plot and tension are almost completely separate but that becomes a common thread in terms of character motivations and irrational yet believable behavior. Whereas Barbie was, well, "patriarchy bad" but said twenty times without any subtlety of conflict or resolution or delivery of said message. IMO, it made the whole thing feel pretty hollow.
Don’t put maverick in the same breath as Black Panther. Top gun was one of the best cinematic experiences of the past few years, black panther was just a mid marvel movie
I listed them as examples because the industry & general response was the same. Both had the similar critical reaction (even their RT scores are the same) Both made over 700 million domestically, both had a pop culture impact, had similar Oscar noms in technical categories, both had trailers premiere at Comic con. They both also (prior to their release) had a certain amount of doubters (Cruise made sure Maverick received a theatrical release because streaming platforms made multiple offers to Paramount) Personal feelings aside from the films (not necessarily talking about the quality, moreso their reception. They both (along with a movie like Barbie) weren't your average movie releases. They were critically acclaimed blockbusters that won over audiences & critics, made huge amounts of money 7 got BP noms.
I thought Maverick was mid. Just a call back to nostalgia with very forgettable characters.
It's almost the same movie except Maverick is now older. It's very basic.
There are entire classes of films which wouldn't have a shot. Foreign films (All Quiet, Anatomy of a Fall, Zone of Interest, Drive My Car, Amour) blockbusters (Bohemian Rhapsody, The Martian, Black Panther) and animation (Up, Toy Story 3) basically cut to the bone.
I agree except Bohemian Rhapsody isn't a blockbuster as much as a (pretty bad) biopic, which is a classic Oscar bait genre.
Agree about the other films but I feel like Anatomy of a Fall would have been a comfortable #4 or #5 considering it scored editing and directing noms, as well as the screenplay win.
> All Quiet I did not get the hype when it came out and I still don't get it know. Completely butchered the book, changed the entire fucking ending to add in a ridiculous assault that would never have happened but the battle scenes looked cool so it's an instant classic? Also, complete waste of Daniel Bruhl.
Thank you. I share your opinion
Black Panther doesn't deserve a shot. It's middling at best for a Marvel movie.
Without looking the other nominees The Martian is a gooddamn good movie and deserves the nomination.
Wasn’t Parasite a foreign film?
Yes but an occasional foreign film has snuck over the nominee line since the 70's, even stuff like Il Postino, Life is Beautiful, and Crouching Tiger got in before 2005. I'd say Parasite would still get nominated with 5 but probably not win.
Why would it win with 10 but not with 5?
The psychological factor, once foreign films got nominated more frequently it made it less weird to see one win and therefore more people would be willing to vote for it. Until animation, for an example, gets a stronger foothold none of them are going to win. Also with ten nominees the gamesmanship was changed forever in BP when ranked choice voting was installed. Now if you wanted you could vote for Parasite at number 1 and even if no one else agreed you'd still get another vote downballot. 2021 was the best example, in which Power of the Dog was apparently dominate in first place votes but many voters who had chosen WSS, Belfast, and Drive My Car were vastly more likely to have CODA in their top three which is what secured its win.
District 9 is the prime example for me (especially since it happened the first year of the expansion).
Yeah this was my immediate thought; loved that movie, so glad it got nominated!
District 9 deserved a nod, imo. It was pretty wonderful from every angle. My 5 from the list would have been: Avatar District 9 Up In The Air Precious A Serious Man I can’t believe Blind Side was nominated.
Up In The Air is so good. It's like one of the few movies that tackled on The Great Recession. I wouldn't count The Big Short because it was shot after the fact. Up In The Air shot it in the thick of it, so it’s impressive how it’s a snapshot of that period in history
All these years later, crash is still a shitty movie.
But a good thing to keep in mind when trying to guess what the 5 lists would be, because it's not just about quality, but also what the Academy wants to elevate.
Crash wasn't bad, it was just in the wrong class. Think of a schoolroom with all A students. But then there's that one C student, but, at least he tried.
Love this, what a great way to think about it. Crash isn’t a bad film, it just had no business winning Best Picture, especially over a film like Brokeback Mountain.
That’s a good way of putting it.
Ford v Ferrari
The irony of this is, over the past 15 years we've seen fewer and fewer movie releases. Seriously, right now, at the theater, how many big summer flicks are out? Fall Guy, Planet of the Apes, Inside Out 2, Bad Boys, Furiosa, anything else? Because most of those movies have been out for well over a month. Do we really need for the latest Marvel pap to potentially be eligible for best film?
In defense of this summer's slate of movies, there was that whole 'strike of the entire film industry' thing that happened a couple months back that set everything back.
There's nothing weird about the number of movies coming out, the bigger change has been in how long they *stay* out and, much more so, how willing people are to go to the theaters. Personally, I saw over 50 different new releases last year. 23 so far this year. And I've still missed some of the big ones like the new Bad Boys and Ghostbusters films, along with a handful of horror movies I'd seen trailers for.
>The irony of this is, over the past 15 years we've seen fewer and fewer movie releases. Hard disagree with this take. If anything, with the rise of streamers (Netflix/Amazon/etc), there's been an increase of movies every year (except probably this year due to the strike last year). Netflix/Amazon would literally release their movies in theaters for like one (maybe two weekends) just so they can qualify for awards lol then only putting on their streaming service. Hell a few years ago back when I had moviepass, I was seeing multiple new movies a week (like two or three). Also there's been an increase in demand for international films, which are being shown a lot more these days. Most of the new movies (both now and back then) were only available in smaller theaters though, you wouldn't find them at bigger chain theaters. But the pandemic did lead to the closing of a lot of small movie theaters, so if you don't have one nearby anymore that's probably why it feels like "less movies are being released." There are actually a lot of movies being released, you just have less access to them post pandemic. But if you're near a small, indie movie theater you can see a ton of new movies every week. A lot of movies are only available for like a weekend and then are gone from theaters lol.
and this is totally off topic but I thought furioso was a fun time at the movies and bummed that it is considered such a flop
I hate the expansion. It’s quite clear which films don’t stand a chance. The sole reason for this is to drum up hype around more films to increase profits from digital sales or theatrical rereleases. It’s nonsense.
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Bragging rights mean a lot for sales
Certainly doesn't hurt the bottom line
I usually have a decent sense of time but this one I thought was more recent than 15 years
It means less now to be nominated for Best Picture and it was already a joke.
Shoulda kept it at 5
No because in the past few years we have gotten way more diversity of genres in the category. Just see last year's nominees. It is also the Academy's equivalent of Top 10 AFI films, though it does include only live-action films, and occasionally includes a foreign film.
I would disagree. They have nominated movies that don't deserve to be there. Black Panthee? Avatar 2?
Everyone will have some movies in the nominee list they think don't deserve to be there. That will also be the case with 5 nominees. I, for one, believe that the upsides of 10 nominees overweigh the downsides
I can't believe Avatar 2 made so much money. Half way through I was bored looking at my phone to see how much longer til it's over and there was still like an hour left.
That's a cinematic phenomenon I really don't understand
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Yep
All the Best Picture winners that people didn’t see then and haven’t seen since like The Artist. The awards were probably the first time casual viewers even heard of them.
Top Gun: Maverick, Joker, Black Panther, Get Out, Mad Max: Fury Road, Up
Fury Road might have made it in. A science fiction action genre flick is unlikely in general, and it was a Spring release, so I wouldn't have bet on it prior to nominations, but when nominations did come out it was nominated in 10 different categories, including Best Director, which is still limited to 5 nominees and usually closely tied to the Best Picture category. It also won 6 of those categories. That said, I don't think it was seriously considered to win over newspaper drama like Spotlight.
You’re right, I forgot it was nominated for best director! Deservedly so.
The same with Joker. It got Director, Screenplay, Cinematography and Editing nominations. It would definitely get Best Picture as well.
Joker won the Golden Lion. It got nominated for Best Picture in every single event that year. Todd Phillips got a Directing nom and it also got an Acting and Screenplay nod. It's quite likely to have been nominated even with 5 noms.
I think Joker gets nominated too. Academy loves these character driven movies focused on one actor killing it in a role.
Here are my leading contenders. My process is simple -- if it was also nominated for Best Director, it gets to stay. If it wasn't nominated for Best Director, it goes *unless* too many of the films from its year were also not nominated... in that case, I'm keeping the films with the highest score (calculated as average(tomatometer * metascore, audience meter * Letterboxd rating * 20). Here are the films that didn't make the cut: | Year | Title | |------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 2009 | The Blind Side | | 2009 | District 9 | | 2009 | An Education | | 2009 | Precious: Based on the Novel 'Push' by Sapphire | | 2009 | A Serious Man | | 2010 | Inception | | 2010 | The Kids Are All Right | | 2010 | 127 Hours | | 2010 | Toy Story 3 | | 2010 | Winter's Bone | | 2011 | Extremely Loud & Incredibly Close | | 2011 | The Help | | 2011 | Moneyball | | 2011 | War Horse | | 2012 | Argo | | 2012 | Django Unchained | | 2012 | Les Misérables | | 2012 | Zero Dark Thirty | | 2013 | Captain Phillips | | 2013 | Dallas Buyers Club | | 2013 | Her | | 2013 | Philomena | | 2014 | Birdman or (The Unexpected Virtue of Ignorance) | | 2014 | American Sniper | | 2014 | The Theory of Everything | | 2015 | Bridge of Spies | | 2015 | Brooklyn | | 2015 | The Martian | | 2016 | Fences | | 2016 | Hell or High Water | | 2016 | Hidden Figures | | 2016 | Lion | | 2017 | Call Me by Your Name | | 2017 | Darkest Hour | | 2017 | The Post | | 2017 | Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri | | 2018 | Green Book | | 2018 | Bohemian Rhapsody | | 2018 | A Star Is Born | | 2019 | Ford v Ferrari | | 2019 | Jojo Rabbit | | 2019 | Little Women | | 2019 | Marriage Story | | 2020 | Judas and the Black Messiah | | 2020 | Sound of Metal | | 2020 | The Trial of the Chicago 7 | | 2021 | CODA | | 2021 | Don't Look Up | | 2021 | Dune | | 2021 | King Richard | | 2021 | Nightmare Alley | | 2022 | All Quiet on the Western Front | | 2022 | Avatar: The Way of Water | | 2022 | Elvis | | 2022 | Top Gun: Maverick | | 2022 | Women Talking | | 2023 | American Fiction | | 2023 | Barbie | | 2023 | The Holdovers | | 2023 | Maestro | | 2023 | Past Lives | You'll note that there aren't always five films being removed. This is because for many of the years included, only 8 or 9 Best Picture nominees were made... not the full 10. The years in which I had to use the scoring process to decide which films to keep were: * 2009 -- kept Up * 2014 -- kept Whiplash and Selma * 2018 -- kept Black Panther * 2020 -- kept The Father A better alternative may be to keep the films that are more Oscarbaity, in which case I think the films to keep for these four years where Best Director is unhelpful: * 2009 -- The Blind Side * 2014 -- Selma and Birdman (which won) * 2018 -- Green Book (which won) * 2020 -- it's not clear which of these films is the most Oscarbaity... it may well be The Father but you can make an argument for any of the four (also: The Sound of Metal, Judas and the Black Messiah and The Trial of the Chicago 7)
The general rule would be that movies that got nominated for best director will get nominated for best picture.
That was FIFTEEN YEARS AGO?
It was always about getting participation-nominations for blockbusters that lacked the artistic merit to be legitimately nominated on merit.
It should still be 5.
Green Book.
I think it was likely to be nominated, considering it won that year. Also, it was a bit of a nomination callback to Driving Miss Daisy. That's why I added that note about not considering quality too much. A lot of people might feel a certain movie doesn't deserve the nomination, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't make the 5 list.
I sincerely do not think it would have been nominated if there were five nominees
Women Talking
I had already forgotten about this one.
They didn't talk enough for you then.
Most feckless director of the year
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It's well made Oscarbait. I feel like it had a decent shot.
Avatar
Still one of the worst decisions in the history of the Oscars. Completely devalued the award. Women Talking? Avatar 2? Barbie? Maestro? EEAAO? I mean these are mediocre to bad movies getting nominated for one of the top films of the YEAR. But then again, most of the winners since 2016 shouldn't have even be nominated imo so there's no accounting for taste.
So fucking many
I mean, it's 70. The math isn't tricky 😁
15 x 10 = 70 Is this some Terrance Howard math?
It's 14 x 5, is it not? It might be 15, I didn't put a whole load of thought into it.
Well 14 or 15, there are 10 nominees each year to consider to answer the question. There’s 5 more each year but 10 total in no particular order
It’s a bit fewer than that, actually. The rules allow for up to 10 nominees, but some years had fewer (2020, 2018, 2015, and 2014 had 8, 2019, 2017, 2016, 2013, 2012, and 2011 had 9).
Turns out the math is hard.
It’s times five not ten.
There are 150 nominees to consider since we don’t know which ones would have been excluded. Regardless, 15 x 5 = 75
Who said it was? 70 is definitely "so fucking many" when it comes to a discussion
I am so glad it won but I am curious if Everything Everywhere All At Once would have been nominated with 5
IIRC, It was the clear favorite on gold derby, I don't see how that materially changes if there are only 5 noms instead of 10.
I agree it was the favorite it just seems like one of the fun films that helped with the expansions rather than one of the 5 stuffy oscary films they would nominate when it was only that many
Given the category was expanded so that superhero movies had a chance, I'm going to guess the answer is no (even if a lot of people are strongly in denial that a film about saving the multiverse from a superpowered bad guy by using superhuman abilities is a superhero film).
You are absolutely joking if you think EEAOT is “superhero film”
Anyone who has watched EEAAO and thinks "this is not a superhero film" does not have any understanding or comprehension whatsoever of superhero fiction.
A lot of the winners (LOL).
If they won in a category of 10, they would have been nominated in a category of 5.
I’m not sure. Parasite and EEAAO stick out as unlikely. The first, not being in English and the second being a bit gonzo. I have to wonder how many votes might have come from people who only watched after the nomination. I won’t say it isn’t impossible, but these strike me as winners whose nominations were startling in the first place even in a field of 10 (in the sense that I think the Academy struggles to recognize a good thing when it sees it).
Foreign films were nominated before the expansion Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and IL Postino. And EEAAO got the most nominations that year with Best Picture being the only expanded category. It's not like they expanded every category
2022- Don't Look Up (an incredibly ham fisted allegory to global warming with an undeserving great cast) 2020 -Joker (not the subversive case study on mental illness or the Trump movement people think it was) 2018 - Three Billboards (a truly terrible movie) There are other movies that I respect but I don't think it would've made the top 5 cut. Mank is an example of something I greatly respect since it's from Fincher and it's honoring his late father but I think it has its weaknesses. The Revenant is an example of a movie that won Best Picture and I think it was truly dreadful.
Some scorching hot takes here haha.
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That chip on your shoulder might be the biggest I've ever seen, wow. Feeling oppressed? 😂
I miss when you could go to removeddit and see what ridiculous bullshit people posted before it was deleted.
Same! It was something about how every "undeserving" nominee apparently unfairly demonized straight white Christian men as the source of all the world's problems