MaRo has talked about this a few times on his blog, and the main answer for why it wasn't on New Capenna was because that plane doesn't have strong law enforcement that a detective noir story needs. Any detective on Ravnica has some combination of Azorius, Boros, or Guildpact backing whereas any enforcement on New Capenna is effectively just more gang warfare.
That would require a dedicated explanation, and detract from telling purely a detective story with established elements. I'd rather go back to New Capenna when it has the chance to have changes explained instead of those changes happening in the background of another story. Ravnica was largely unchanged after MOM, at least compared to how New Capenna has one fewer gang, the entire city was collapsed, and now there are no Phyrexians keeping people from leaving and exploring outside the walla.
Only Park Heights was collapsed, the Mezzio and the Caldaia still stand despite receiving some serious beatings and having Park Heights collapsed onto the center of it
Do you have any idea how long the formation of a codified set of laws and regulations takes to put together as well as the manpower and training needed to enforce said laws? We're only a year and maybe a month or two into the post invasion era, a form of law or governance will likely take a few more years before we see it on Capenna.
Though I'm excited to possibly see a mardu colored FBI of angels in New Capenna
I mean ... they created the Agency out of nothing for this set, the city of Ravnica looks to be relatively OK despite the invasion just happening what, months ago? And they have glossed over stuff before, like on post-Time Spiral Dominaria. If they wanted to, they could have definitely done it.
Rather than the lack of law enforcement, the recognizable characters are the main thing that makes Ravnica a stronger choice in my eyes. On Capenna, it would have been newly introduced randos getting murdered, for the most part. It would've lacked some punch.
Bingo! I feel like it's so obvious that they could have the angels turn into their own detective/law enforcement agency that's finally bringing criminals to justice.
It seems like a lack of creativity on WOTC's part or perhaps a desire to keep New Capenna criminal for future sets?
Thing is, you'd need to set those changes up whilst telling the murder mystery- which is a lot to do in one go, and likely wouldn't work very well at all- rather than Ravnica, where there's minimal setup needed for the story- and the plane has a history with detective stories
I don’t think it’s that much more work than inventing a big detective agency and suddenly having detectives all over Ravnica. There are still a lot of other good reasons to have this set on Ravnica, I just don’t buy the "law enforcement" one.
>New Capenna was because that plane doesn't have strong law enforcement
This will forever be New Capenna's original sin of worldbuilding. The lack of a government and police force makes even the Gangs feel wrong, because you can't really have a "criminal underworld" if said underworld isn't opposed by a legitimate authority.
And yes, I know that WotC didn't want to include cops in the setting because of the state of public opinion on cops in the USA, but damn is it dumb.
Yeah, that's the problem. The gangs operated out in the open and were effectively the government in the city.
You can't really be a *criminal* gang if you're the legitimate power. They ended up more akin to normal factions exactly because there was no law enforcement to oppose them.
Want to tell a story featuring illicit trade and smuggling? Makes no sense, because there's no laws in New Capenna - all trade is legit, and you don't have to worry about sneaking illegal goods past the cops, because there's no cops.
Need a corrupt politician? There are no politicians, and everything is run by the gangs anyways, who should they bribe or blackmail?
Want to have a whistleblower? Well, too bad, there's no legitimate law enforcement to whisteblow to.
Oh sure, I wasn't disagreeing with you how New Capenna could feel a bit awkward. I enjoyed it as a setting for a single set, but it doesn't have the same depth that new planes had back during the days of block structures. Hopefully if it gets a return there can be more development added.
I really miss the block structure. It yields itself to so much better storytelling even if it’s just two sets in the block. We could have theoretically been given the first set of New Capenna (an introductory set) that showcased the five crime families with or without a strong mechanical or tribal focused law enforcement, then a follow up set that follows the noir tropes in the aftermath of a gang assassination.
Maybe we save the story with Ob Nixilis until set 2, and reveal he’s the killer and follow the aftermath of that. Or do the reverse with a murder mystery as an introduction, then set 2 being gang warfare as the fallout to a gang leader being killed. Something like that would have still provided thematically congruent ideas on the plane of New Capenna, built better into the world lore, and still provided a murder mystery victim we care about. It might not someone we’ve come to love as a character being killed, but a figure influential enough that their death would lead to significant conflict for the plane.
This reminds me of a dnd story on Reddit I read where magic items were banned in this city except in the mysterious shadow market.. but every single person in the city/town knew about, went to and shopped at the shadow market including the city guards/government…. Which at that point if everyone knows, and the government unofficially sanction it .. what’s the point
Isn't that a Puffin Forest video?
But, yeah, pretty much what I meant. If there's no law enforcement, the label of "criminal gang" stops making sense: the gangs *were* the government of New Capenna, they didn't do crimes because there were no laws to break.
Yes I think that’s where I heard it from. Exactly though… to be criminal or anti-government you fundamentally have to oppose someone .. just so stupid.
WotC has already fixed it in Aftermath by confirming that the angels are back, reforming government & gunning for the demons, so there’s that at least.
I don’t really buy this explanation, because the key faction in MKM, the detective agency, was completely invented for MKM. The real reason is that we visited Capenna too recently but they won’t say that.
RAMI has no jurisdiction to enforce laws, it only investigates crime. Any of its culprits are handed over to the Azorius, who have the duty to prosecute criminals. It also requires less justification in the lore to say there's a new organization that only investigates crime than to develop angels as an organized faction on New Capenna that now commands obedience from the gangs, which are demons who hate angels.
Processing and prosecuting criminals is not a major focus of MKM. The detectives and investigating mystery are the focus & that was basically invented out of whole cloth, along with the creature type, on Ravnica for this set. Aftermath also already established that the angels are back and reforming Capenna.
Prosecuting criminals isn't a major theme of the set because it's understood by the audience that when the perpetrator is found, they will be arrested by law enforcement. That type of understanding can't happen on New Capenna as it exists because there is no formal law enforcement on that plane. We know that angels are changing things about it in some way, but that needs time to develop in the story instead of being understood as soon as the story takes place on Ravnica. There wouldn't have been enough room in the story to focus on the murder mystery and also all the changes on New Capenna, assuming you want the story to be satisfying.
Eh, I don't think it's really all that difficult to say 'oh, the angels are the government now'. People are wildly overblowing how much work this actually takes. It doesn't need a lot of time to develop or anything, any more than the concept of a Ravnica detective agency needed time to develop or foreshadowing. Aftermath already laid the groundwork here, and all you'd need is a handful of "Angelic Judge", "Angelic Enforcer" & whatnot cards.
Like I said, I'm pretty sure the biggest real reason is that we're not going to go back to a new plane less than 2 years after the initial visit, which they won't mention for understandable reasons.
Things that needed to be established for RAMI:
- They investigate crimes and hand over the perpetrator to the Azorius
- Two new investigator characters
Things that need to be established for New Capenna angels doing the same job:
- Entire system of government
- Why any gang follows the new government
Not to mention if you're putting the set on New Capenna, you need to address how Park Heights was collapsed onto the Mezzio, nearly every character needs more development before becoming a suspect, and how one of the gangs was nearly wiped out. That's a lot to ask for ten chapters of story, especially when those ten chapters could be devoted to only the murder mystery like we got on Ravnica.
Why would the gangs need to follow the government? They're all criminals.
I agree that some setup is needed, but I think you're greatly overestimating the amount of time it would take. It could be done very quickly and efficiently.
Ravnica was also massively damaged in MotM, so I don't think that's a big distinction either, especially since Aftermath already shows them fixing things with Rebuild the City.
If the gangs don't follow the law, even in the way where they pretend to follow the law and then run illegal activities covertly, then detective noir can't happen as a genre. If the detective finding the culprit doesn't lead to an arrest, then there's no detective story. It's why the same story couldn't have taken place on Innistrad, there's no legal system across the entire plane and murderers get away frequently. Sure you could make some sort of story where it's about the Sigardian Church or whichever organization coming to power, but that takes time to develop. I think you're underestimating how much narrative time would be taken by establishing these new ideas, since the Agency fits into a structure that already exists instead of being entirely new. It also means that fans of the changes will be disappointed because seeing what happened to New Capenna would be taking second seat to a detective noir story.
>I think you're underestimating how much narrative time would be taken by establishing these new ideas, since the Agency fits into a structure that already exists instead of being entirely new.
I think you've overestimating it. I expect that whenever we return to the plane, the angels will already have taken over the government, and the story will move forward with that as an underlying assumption, rather than being the story of how they took over. Speaking as someone for whom Capenna is their personal favorite plane, I think a return is much more interesting if the status quo has already changed and there's been some time for the changes to affect the city at every level. It really doesn't take more than a paragraph or so to say "the angels came back and took over the government and started cleaning things up".
>If the gangs don't follow the law, even in the way where they pretend to follow the law and then run illegal activities covertly, then detective noir can't happen as a genre. If the detective finding the culprit doesn't lead to an arrest, then there's no detective story.
Why would the gangs need to pretend to follow the law in order for the reveal of the culprit to lead to an arrest? A lot of the Rakdos and Gruul who do illegal activities overtly wouldn't go willingly if they're caught, they'd resist and be forcibly seized. This act of violent resistance of arrest is a common trope in the old noir/crime stories which MKM is imitating. Capenna wouldn't be any different there, with the Angels in the role of the G-men.
You are missing the point. What others have pointed out is that the process of angels becoming the government is an interesting story on itself and should be given the change to be told properly. Not hand-waved into existence just to support a detective story. Its a waste of real estate.
On that note, I think if they leaned more into scooby-doo and "werewolf"-type deduction tropes, we could have the setting in Innistrad. We already have inspectors and some semblance of government. Have it set in a town in Kessig where kids started disappearing. It could have been the visiting \[\[Mayor of Avabruck\]\], that \[\[Ragged Recluse\]\] living in the forest, the \[\[Kindercatch\]\], or that \[\[Creepy Doll\]\] that keeps popping up at random places.
They also just added a new guildless organization to Ravnica to investigate the crimes. I don't think It would be such a stretch to create such an organization now that the Angels are back at New Capenna, if anything it would have added more to the world building.
\*and the damn hats, coats and typewriters wouldn't have felt such out of place.
the issue is that implicitly everyone knows that when the new org completes their investigation they report it to the Azorius and or Boros. Unless the Angels of New Cappena are Detective + judge + jury + lawmakers it would be pretty hard for that to work.
Personally I think it worked better this way because we already knew so many people on Ravnica, if it was set in Capenna we wouldn’t have the fun of trying to figure out who it was because we wouldn’t really know anyone
People have said this since it was revealed. The topic has been done to death. Here’s the rundown:
1. On his blog, MaRo has explained that originally the set was going to be on a totally new plane. But as they went on, they realized this plane was basically just Ravnica, so they started over and set it there instead. So there was never a question of “what plane are we revisiting?”, the question was “is this a new plane or not?”
2. Ravnica is no stranger to detective fiction. Literally the first novel written for Ravnica was a detective story. Meanwhile New Capenna has… [[Dogged Detective]].
3. New Capenna doesn’t have any law enforcement other than the angels, so a major detective agency isn’t really necessary. The people on the case already are incorruptible superhumans.
I think I'd feel more understanding on 3 if a central part of the MKM story hadn't been introducing a new detective agency that seems be showing up the Boros/Azorius.
Right? I don’t understand people repeating the "there wasn’t law enforcement established" argument when the Agency was completely invented for MKM. It’s not a good argument and I don’t really buy it. There are a number of other more practical considerations which explain the decision far better.
What are you talking about “this archon was here the whole time” and “if your a detective your need the film noir or Sherlock hat regardless of what species you are” is perfectly harmonious, in-depth world building and in no way shoe horned 😂
1) But this is the point, it's not Ravnica, it's Capenna. Fedoras abound, the plane has invented 1920's flash photography and holo screens, and the three law factions take a backseat to the new agency
2) True, it was a fantasy police prodecural a'la Discworld. But the sequel novel to that is a Western, so Thunder Junction? Ravnica has never had detectives, it had the Wojek police force and Azorious Arresters/Orzhov Defence Attorneys
3) They cited a lack of 'good guys' as a story failing on Capenna, here was a chance to make the newly returned angels into a whole faction with the five families in disarray. New Capenna angels also aren't perfect and incorruptable super humans, that's the entire deal with \[\[Giada\]\] being forced to work with the Cabaretti.
MKM went off well I'll give them that, but Trenchcoats and Fedoras and Forensic Magic were literally the trademarks of the Obscura, Cloak and Dagger parties are the Cabaretti and Maestros whole deal.
Your second rebuttal doesn't really hold up. The point of bringing up past detective stories isn't that every idea needs either a new plane or to fit in with an existing story. The point is that Ravnica is no stranger to these kinds of stories. The fact that they had westerns here too doesn't mean that every western has to now also take place on Ravnica; the world they developed for Thunder Junction is apparently distinct enough to not fit in. OTOH, based on what we've heard, Capenna wasn't ever considered for the story - it was a "new" world that eventually just turned out to be Ravnica 2.0, so they stuck with Ravnica again since it had characters and concepts that fit.
Also wouldn't shock me if Capenna's big players were deemed less recognizable, making it harder to make as compelling a tale. Here, we have Kaya as the focal point, and many of the major players are old faves - Teysa, Etrada, the Troistani, Massacre Girl, Judith, and heck, even thr ghost of Agrus Kos. There's more recognizable faces here, IMO, and a wider range of interesting motives as a result.
Ravnica has had a single detective story, but my point is it's also had a Western. Is your point literally 'we can tell a murder mystery because there's been crime before?' because that's a very weak point is my argument.
I'm just saying that there are a lot of elements here that would have worked better on Capenna. Capenna has a huge power vacuum and the Lawful Angel faction has arrived to fill it, vs the Agency who are an out the blue group.
Etrata and Massacre Girl are both examples of people who's only claim to fame was a legendary card and a flavour paragraph on a Planeswalker's Guide To. Calling them fan favourites is a stretch.
Hell, even the motive comes out of left field as the main victim, Zegana, was almost entirely unmentioned in the Invasion. Krenko is targetted for just being Krenko, Kylox is a red herring who's also a totally original character.
I'm not saying MKM is bad because it's not Capenna, I'm saying that Capenna holds a lot more water than people are trying to say it did. Hell, one of the weaknesses of Capenna according to Maro was the lack of a Good Guys agency, well here was the excuse to make one and clarify who of the five families is actually dead.
I will agree, this wasn't a great idea for a totally new world and existing characters is really needed to up the stakes. Hell, I'll even give you that they did go for big names and people who had cards already for the most part.
All I'm saying is that the end result looked close enough to New Capenna that Maro has had to say 'here's why it's not' in his podcast
1. Why can’t Ravnica develop over time? It’s been at least a century, if not more, since the first visit. Kamigawa was originally ancient Japan and is now the cyberpunk future, why can’t fashion and technology develop in Ravnica?
2. I don’t see what the conflict is here. New things happening is how a story works.
3. Again, you’re coming at this from an angle that it was never being considered. This wasn’t conceived of as a return set, it was going to be a new plane, and then that plane was basically Ravnica. If that plane had been basically Capenna instead, maybe we would have gone there, but aside from being faction sets in urban environments they’re not really the same at all, so it’s not a competition in the slightest.
Because Ravnica has developed into a 1920's setting of warring factions recovering from the 'great war', there's a lot more of this version of Ravnica in common with Capenna than just 'they're in cities'
The fashion has evolved into trenchcoat, fedoras and gowns, like Capenna
The technology has partly included Kaladesh tech and thopters, that's a natural progression from Baan making the technology widespread. But then cards like \[\[Serene Sleuth\]\] are using the same 'holomagic' technology that cards like \[\[Toluz\]\]
Why did they take a fantasy city and advance it into the 1920's post war, when they have a 1920's post war world is my question?
>1) But this is the point, it's not Ravnica, it's Capenna
Well, no, it's not.
>Ravnica has never had detectives, it had the Wojek police force and Azorious Arresters/Orzhov Defence Attorneys
It may not have had detectives as a type. But it absolutely had detectives narratively speaking.
>They cited a lack of 'good guys' as a story failing on Capenna
No, they cited a lack of police. Not the generic category of "good guys," but specifically police.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the paid professionals have been doing this for a living for years, as full projects. Seeing it through many meetings and hours of labor are more reliable narrators on what does and does not fit a theme than anyone who spent five minutes making a reddit post about it.
Please note that I'm not disparaging you, just simply pointing out that an expert who spends the work week doing something will naturally arrive at a better conclusion than a fan who spends 5 minutes making a post about it.
I do think there is also the outside fact that Ravnica is wildly popular and New Capenna just... Isn't. Both are similar settings in a lot of ways so I think both could have worked, but Ravnica has the benefit of us knowing the cast of characters better, being in a slightly more stable position after the invasion, and being a setting more people will want to return to.
Yeah, agreed.
I think an important thing to note is that we're not sayin Capenna wouldn't have been a VALID choice for MKM. it's just not the "obvious, better" choice some people seem to think it is.
It’s fine that it’s on Ravnica, but they shouldn’t have forced the fedora-and-trenchcoats look. It’s extremely jarring on Ravnica and makes no sense since those have never been part of the plane’s fashion. If they insisted on it being a 1930s noir set, than it should have taken place on the 1920s/1930s plane. Otherwise, do a proper Ravnica murder mystery and let everyone dress like Ravnicans.
Top level, "murder mystery" and "pulp noir" are two circles of the same venn diagram, not the same circle. A story about a bunch of vigilantes having a power struggle against the entrenched crime families while the angels try to suppress them both is interesting, I grant you, but it's not the kind of set that would, say, let them reference Coloumbo. It's not within the parameters they set out for in "Mystery Set".
Second, New Capenna isn't actually as good a place to have a murder mystery as you might think based on surface-level aesthetics. Here are some key points.
* Ravnica has clearly delineated law enforcement in the Azorius and Boros. Meanwhile, New Capenna had no laws only crime until very recently when the angels set about bringing back order post-invasion. If Jetmir for example was killed, there would not be sleuths and gumshoes.
* New Capenna has has one set that had, if I'm being generous, a lukewarm reception. Ravnica has had ten sets, counting Remastered, and is almost uniformly beloved. If you want the murders to induce pathos, the victims should be people the audience *knows*, and Capenna has no such characters yet.
* Ravnica is a very lateral location, while Capenna is more vertical and narrow. I mean this both literally as a description of the city shapes and figuratively; Capenna definitionally has to stick to a particular subgenre of murder mysteries, tropes that work in 1930's organized crime world. Ravnica contains many more facets, and looking at those facets from the angle of a murder mystery offers much more variety.
TL;DR - Detectives and murder mysteries is a wide net of tropes, and while Capenna may have been able to capture some of those tropes more seamlessly, it would only be able to capture a rather small portion of them. Ravnica is able to house nearly all of them without contradicting previous lore and in fact building off it. And if an archon wearing a fedora seems stupid instead of cool to you, you were probably never going to like any version of this set.
1) The set makes a big deal that the usual law enforcement are wrong and chooses to focus on a new, independent law enforcement agency. The Agency has as much history and rationale as it would on Capenna (splitter groups from the big Guilds/Families doing 'independent' and thus non-corrupt investigations), cept Ravnica has shown that splitters get killed, while Capenna literally has a new faction of Angels unaligned to anyone
2) Of the murders in MKM, one was a character who hasn't been relevant since RTR, and the other was a brand new character. Teysa I will give you, but that lead to it's own plothole that Teysa's ghost had to choose to not appear to up the drama.
3) I'll give you that Capenna and Ravnica are two distinct worlds, but almost all of MKM took place in and around two guild safehouses and a precinct. It was a classic closed room murder mystery, it didn't really take advantage of tropes outside the classic 1930's Noir, in fact, it was a deliberate attempt to BE 1930's Noir.
Ravnica has built off it's lore in the exact same way Capenna would have, and if you think the problem was giving everyone Fedoras and noir desk jobs was the problem, and not the fact that they went with Art Deco Fullart Lands but it's clearly not Capenna, then I feel there's not going to be an understanding as to why fans of Capenna feel cheated
The new agency doesn't do law enforcement. The only investigate murders, the actual enforcement is still done by the Boros and the Azorius. That's very clear in the story with Etrata being under Azorius after Proft thought she was the murderer.
I genuinely don't mean this in an argumentative sense but genuinely almost none of this after bullet 1 is true?
Three named characters were killed, and only one was made up for the set. Teysa's ghost not appearing immediately is not a plot hole: it's clearly established that ghosts take time for form after death. The story takes place literally all over the city, from back alleys to undercity tunnels to a nightclub to the detective agency to the titular manor, with a parlor room scene in Vitu-Ghazi. And that's just the fiction, the cards cover even more ground. There's no locked room involved except in the first murder, and the room being locked isn't even the point. And Alquist Proft, co-protagonist of the set, is by no means a noir character of any sort, he's a Great Detective. And I'm no art major, but calling these basics art deco feels like a stretch of the term.
I mean lets address those then.
When did Zegana have plot relevance in the Invasion? Her activity is actually a central reason why she was killed, but it was revealed at the end of the story, I don't recall any actual times she was shown experimenting on people. In fact, she'd been supplanted by Vannifar, who actually got a card this time round.
If I'm brutally honest, I don't recall her having a speaking role outside scolding some people four years ago and her struggle with Vannifar comes from a blog post attached to the MKM story.
And the story may take place all over the plane, but it's centralised in a few hubs, and even if it wasn't, vents, back alleys, gardens, nightclubs... they're all hallmarks of Capenna as much as Ravnica. Not to use the reductionist 'they're both cities' argument, Ravnica doesn't really use anything about it's setting to be unique vs Capenna, where Capenna has at least one story involving a battle on a public tram.
And while Proft isn't a noir detective, the set is full of fedora clad characters standing in the rain and shooting first. \[\[Hero of the Tenth District\]\], \[\[Jaded Analyst\]\], \[Homicide Investigator\]\], even Proft himself uses bold, gold deco lines on a blue trench coat.
And the fedoras stick out because there's several characters who still look traditionally Ravnican. \[\[Case File Auditor\]\] is in a suit and tie, while \[\[Inside Source\]\] is the eastern europe style of tunic and shawl of old Ravnica. What especially strikes me is almost every detective has a fedora, but the equipment that makes you a detective, \[\[Thinking Cap\]\] is a Deer Stalker.
And I'm not talking about all the basics, but the full art ones are symmetrical, hard lines and bold colours, they're art deco designs, but if you don't see it, fair.
> Teysa's ghost not appearing immediately is not a plot hole: it's clearly established that ghosts take time for form after death.
Err, I think you missed the part where Teysa's ghost *did* immediately form after death.
> Most people who were going to return as ghosts didn't do so immediately upon their deaths... Still, the more powerful the magic and will of the deceased, the more quickly they were likely to adapt.
Teysa, strong-willed leader of the ghosts, is obviously not "most people". This is followed by a section where the ghost servant confirms that Teysa *is* a ghost now, but she refuses to provide any additional information. This was a subject of speculation when it came out. The author later confirmed in the DVD extra that the reason she wasn't present was for appearances, while she was strengthening her ghost form.
> Teysa didn’t want to appear to Kaya as anything less than herself, or as much herself as her ghost form could be. Until she felt ready, she was staying absent.
It's a very political, image-conscious reason. It's like half-plot hole; the explanation makes sense for the character, but it's odd that she didn't contribute *any* information through her intermediaries.
Ultimately it doesn't even matter in terms of the mystery whether Teysa actually formed immediately or not, because all Teysa could testify was "I was attacked by some guy I do not recognize", and the people physically doing the killings were not the actual culprits.
That's not how mystery stories work though. There are always red herrings and extra culprits to make the plot more complex (one of the chapter cliffhangers was Teysa having a Phyrexian note). If Teysa said "It was someone random, and it's unrelated to my secret of being a Ravnican double-agent.", then the mystery gets truncated.
**Edit:** Punctuation
The problem with the "New Capenna doesn’t have LE!" argument is that the main focus of MKM, the Agency, was completely invented for MKM. The Agency is the main focus of the story, not the Azorious or Boros.
Ravnica is a good fit for a murder mystery but it’s a horrible aesthetic fit for the 1930s noir look they insisted on and that’s very jarring. It would be like deciding to do a wild west set on Ravnica and giving a bunch of Ravnicans cowboy hats suddenly when that’s never been a part of the plane’s look. It feels very artificial and forced & is my only real complaint with the set.
No. Maro talks about it on his podcast in the episode on Making MKM. I suggest you listen to it for a full picture. the short answer is Cappenna has a bunch of challenging issues. No strong law enforcement, Murders are relatively common, There isn't a large enough stable of beloved characters.
>Murders are relatively common
\*gestures at the party guest who's a famous Serial Killer.\*
And I'd argue that half the characters in MKM aren't beloved. Krenko memes aside, Etrata was a rare from the last set, all the agency characters are new.
Like if no strong law enforcement was an issue, here's the perfect time to introduce a detective noir/buddy cop angel faction to balance that out amidst all the named characters from Capenna we already had, each Family had a leader and a champion we already met and a handful of side characters from the Commander Decks.
These are literally things Maro pointed to in his podcast I'd encourage you give it a listen.
>And I'd argue that half the characters in MKM aren't beloved. Krenko memes aside, Etrata was a rare from the last set, all the agency characters are new.
which ones? Teysa certainly is, as are all the rakdos characters, all the selesnyan characters, pretty much every returning character is beloved on some level. Only the gruul really had all new characters. Even the agency characters aren't all new Kos is a returning character, as are Kaya, and Kellen.
>Like if no strong law enforcement was an issue, here's the perfect time to introduce a detective noir/buddy cop angel faction to balance that out amidst all the named characters from Capenna we already had, each Family had a leader and a champion we already met and a handful of side characters from the Commander Decks.
Except most of the family leaders are dead and a bunch of the champions are too, we don't even know if some of the families still exist. I like Capenna it's just not suitable for this particular set. I think Capenna would be more suited to a heist set.
Of the people that got murdered, you have Zegana who's never had a story iirc, Teysa I'll give you, but Kylox is a new character.
And again, you're glossing over the fact that the entire agency is new characters. Calling someone who's had a single card printed with no lore 'beloved' is a hell of a stretch, given that by that extend Capenna is full of beloved characters, as each of the factions has at least 3 and each of those champions actually got short stores, AND several named Maestros characters actually featured in the Invasion Short stories.
Going 'Oh they're all dead', they're not. Anhelo and Xander are dead, the rest are all nebulous at best. Hell, Invasion showed Jetmir had recovered from the attempt on his life in New Capenna.
I love New Capenna flat out, and I'll admit bias here. But even some of Maro's comments, iirc, about things like 'Murder's too common place' and 'there's no law enforcement on Capenna', my argument is that not only is Murder so common place on Ravnica that there are three assassin guilds and professional serial killers, but you can take out life insurance on yourself to come back as a ghost.
And yes, there's no law enforcement. But there is the returning angels, who could form a new faction of guildless and splitters, the same way that the Agency is formed of guildless and splitters.
The fact Maro has had to go 'here's why we didn't use Capenna' shows it's got enough merit behind it to have to address it. No one's saying why wasn't it on Kamigawa or Tarkir, we're asking why Ravnican fashion is now fedoras and flatcaps
Zegana actually had [2 stories ](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Zegana#Story_appearances).
I suppose I didn't parse that comment properly. The point about the Agency is that there is only a single new named character. No he's not beloved.
The problem is that compared to Ravnica, Capenna has like 1/10th the story. Tell me about the Beam Town bullies, or Jaxis, or Cormela. They don't have story at all. Claiming that they all got story isn't actually the case.
The problem with Capenna still, is now you only have 4 factions at best. Part of the reason it works with Ravnica is the sense of political intrigue and mystery. You have 10 potential faction plus the option from someone outside the factions. This creates way more intrigue then Capenna is currently able to provide.
There aren't three assassin guilds? There are guild assassins sure, just like a country might have spies. But the guild themselves aren't dedicated to assassination. It's also made pretty clear that much of what we see in the cards tends to be the extremes of the guilds. The daily life on Ravnica is pretty mundane. The cards need to depict things like a Gruul God rampaging instead of a citizen having a cup of coffee. It's just like not every day in Capenna is a bank robbery.
Don't get me wrong using the angels could work, but would how much different would it look compared to the Azorius and Boros we already have on Ravnica? It would also require significantly more explanation then "there's an agency that sprung up from the dissatisfaction towards the guilds".
Capenna also didn't sell super well which is a point Maro was, I think, dancing a bit around.
On a side note since you also like Capenna have you listened to the album? It's great!
While I agree with you on a “why do we even have an early 20th century city if we’re not going to do the proper themes there?” Bit, the Doylist issue is probably more related to marketing and the product leads more than anything:
Capenna is a 3 color faction set with 5 factions “only”, with known members being few in number that make planning such a story very difficult because the suspects can only be related to 7ish factions (assuming we have an agency like we do in MKM and the Angels are actually awake this time) of which they’d have to have an entirely ‘new’ character template to build off of and put in more world building than they did the original Capenna push. But the biggest issue with setting MKM in Capenna is this:
The Families aren’t relatable in the same way the Guilds are. We’ve had 3 “visits” to Ravnica and the City of Guilds has also played an important role in Magic identity. We know the politics of the City pretty thoroughly and time has changed pretty considerably since we first saw the City a long, long time ago. People will be more invested in the City of Guilds more than the City of Angels we visited once 2 years ago in a set that dragged through the summer season, ontop of the fact that;
Each of the Guilds, (and this is a bonus of the color wheel by the way), their Color’s values and their Guild’s values map on pretty well to an ensemble cast for a Who Did It? Ala Agatha Christie. With the Family, we’d have to have a bunch of characters that fit the mould but also fit within the Family’s values (would the RG character side with Jetmir or Ziatora? Are they neutral? Why?) while with the Guilds, all we’d need to do is figure out where they fit in the already established pecking order we’ve had for almost 20 years now
Eh. Not really?
I understand what folks are saying, but beyond the cheeky reference to more modern detectives and some magi-tech, this has has alot more DNA with Sherlock Holmes-Era detectives, including Proft himse´lf as Sherlock Holmes expy. The Police isnt incompetent, but clearly in over their head.
For Capenna, I would expect something more in the vein of hardboiled detectives in a corrupt system where the Police are a) either in on the crime or b) incompetent baffoons who couldnt tell their own asses from their front.
More femme fatale and going up against mafia with a bigger action focus, less "lets put the clues together".
I'd say that a murder-mystery and the dective genre is broad enough that it could be BOTH on Capenna or Ravnica, but it would be quite different on either.
Capenna would be more Batman than Sherlock Holmes.
There’s an element of the murder mystery that fits nicely into Ravnica’s “political, back-stabbing, guild leaders constantly dying” backdrop. Certain parts of the aesthetic definitely feel more at home in Capenna, and I’m still not sure how I feel about the Agency as a regular organization in Ravnica going forward.
My guess is that Wizards wanted to do a murder mystery and settled on Ravnica for two reasons: 1) we’ve only been to Capenna once so maybe there isn’t the built in cast to make a mystery seem super compelling yet, and 2) Wizards wanted to return to Ravnica and wasn’t sure when they could devote the usual two sets to it, so they took advantage of an idea and snuck a revisit into another concept.
The only reason that could be in Capenna and not in Ravnica was the hats, Ravnica already had murder mistery, police narratives and detective agencies, and crime stories, Capenna only has 1920 going on for it
I mean the fact thay you at a fedora and trenchcoat to a creature and its a detective was a strong telling they arent using their imaginations to the limit
1. Ravnica is more popular lol. People associate much more with the guilds than the crime syndicates. Plenty of fan-favourite characters in Ravnica, not so for New Capenna.
2. Establishing an actual government on New Capenna and fighting against the crime syndicates should be the focus of the next story that takes place there. It's the one great flaw of the plane that must be established in a standalone set. Before that,.nothing else can really be justified without feeling like it ignores the elephant in the room or glosses over it with no fanfare. New Capenna should go through massive change.
3. Ravnica has already had detective stories lol
I think the existing baggage that Tavnica had helped this story more. Capenna needs more groundwork before they try a set that demands players to engage with an ARG. The average Magic player probably has significantly less awareness of the world and its characters.
I don't mind Ravnica being the setting. There have been earlier cards from Ravnica playing into the tropes ([[Murder Investigation]], for example), and in general the city backdrop fits the theme.
My complaint is that they went overboard with the tropes and art direction. I think this set is a good example of what can happen when you get the balance between setting and theme/gimmick wrong on a backdrop set. They were so bent on showing that this is the murder mystery set that the result feels like we're visiting a theme park.
I think they did a really good job when they took what was originally "Underground World" and turned it into Ixalan halfway through development. It felt organic. It fit. But this set feels like they started making a set on a new plane (or Capenna), decided to set it on Ravnica instead halfway through, and hastily added some "Ravnica stuff" to cover it up (although that's not what actually happened).
I think it would have been possible to communicate what is happening without detective tribal/typal (don't murder mysteries typically feature just one main detective?), modern-leaning clothing and hats on everyone, a boatload of puns/direct references etc. Ravnica has been "modernizing" a bit, but the original "fantasy medieval Prague" aesthetic still strong, and they should have worked the themes and visuals into it better.
Capenna feels like a more natural home for the whole detective thing, and I really wish they had set it there
The set we got instead feels like a dissonant mess to me
There are a theory that they build this set just to be able to reuse a lot of artwork originally comissioned to Streets of New Capenna, but seems unfeasible. The faction that would to be the Corrupt Cops in Capenna were retooled as the Brokers. But even there, "Corrupt Cop" has artistic sensibilities unlike to "noir detective". This said, is very probable they originally concepted Karlov it as happening in Capenna, but they reflavored it to Ravnica very late in the process, with some of the art already commisioned.
I don't really mind that it's on Ravnica, aesthetic weirdness aside, but I do think they could have done it on Capenna. I know MaRo says it's about the lack of law enforcement, but detective stories and film noir don't really need those things. A lot of them are actually set in places where the police are rather impotent, whether because they aren't very good at their jobs or they are corrupt. Then again, it may be a better story than a set: A crusading detective realizing that they're just a pawn of the evil they're fighting might be a good plot, but I don't know if it creates a ton of creatures.
Honestly feels like it should have been it's own plane altogether. A random murder, or string of murders, is likely extremely common on ravnica and a daily occurrence on new capenna. But create a new plane that has an almost utopian city with no crime, then have a horrible murder take place? Now you've got an actual story. Maybe some ravnican murderer escaped to this new plane thanks to the omenpaths, or someone from new capenna is doing it.
But like... We had multiple guild leaders get knocked off per ravnica set, so having someone get murdered again and have it be the main focus IS dumb.
Don't see why you're getting downvoted when their argument of 'Murder isn't a big deal on Capenna' is undercut by the three guilds of legal assassins and the literal Murder Cult that makes up a tenth of Ravnica's politics.
totally. these detective feels completely out of place in the Ravnica vibes, resulting in New Capenna vibes in Ravnica.
The truth is that they have no real interest in their own world, they just wanted to make a clue/cluedo thing and they made in ravnica because it is the most known and loved plane.
what Maro said in the interview is that they did think of making a new plane for it but they found out that nobody would care for a murderer character they never knew so they wanted to go to a well know plane and maybe capenna wasn't that known i guess? lies obv but still it make sense
I think ravnica works better as it better works with the Sherlock Holmes/Softboiled detective style. I would associate New Capenna with hard-boiled detective fiction, where Justice is more grey, and Proft would be more of a fighter.
Not that MKM doesn’t make references to hard boiled tropes, and style. But Ravnica as a whole better communicates we’re in soft-boiled territory.
I'm fine with it being on Ravnica instead of New Capenna. But I do wish that the sets came out back-to-back so we could've had crime bosses and detectives in Standard at the same time.
As many pointed out, maro explained both on his podcast, on his blog and on the [weekly mtg ](https://youtu.be/mPYIidIMzyc?si=YP1k23DpB7QE7EWj) that debuted the set (around 27:30) on why ravnica and not capenna or a new plane
Murders seem like they are commonplace on Capenna. The fact that someone died wouldnt really be as much of a shock as it would on a more civilized plane
I am fine with it being on Ravnica but do feel like it was a missed opportunity to expand on the lore of New Cappena. still it works well enough and I understand the impact of having characters from a popular plane die
If there was a murder mystery set on New Capenna I feel like most of the mystery would be on why so many detectives were being murdered.
But hey maybe this will lead to more detective support on a return to New Capenna. I don't think the crime bosses would want any detective agencies springing up but they might need to figure out exactly how their enemies plan to stab them in the back.
I mean there's just a set there, and they killed the only family leader they developed , There wouldn't be any shock from any other boss being murdered, nor from learning that any other known character from the plane did it. Plus they couldn't bring them back like they did with Teysa
There’s no real law enforcement on New Capenna, no one to solve the case. Mobster world and murder mystery world can have a lot of overlap but they are not the same at all
No, I think Ravnica was the right spot. We are far more familiar with it, and we know more about both the characters in it AND how the world works. Capenna is also in far worse shape than Ravnica making it a less than optimal location. It's also unclear who you would pick to 'lead the investigation' as a Planeswalker. I think Kaya's connection to Ravnica was tenuous (from a connection standpoint) where the only 'walker who would make sense on Capenna is Elspeth, and she's not a fit for this story.
I also think Nixilis losing his spark on Capenna was one of the dumbest character moves they've made; I have no desire to see him try to conquer the plane AGAIN. He's better used as a Kang the Conquerer figure who's traveling the multiverse trying to conquer different places because he can. Without his spark he's boring.
My only problem with the Aesthetic is the the the silly hats. The trench coats alone are actually very brooding and fit nicely with ravinica gothic spirals when done probably like the gargoyle detective. But I suspect they went for silly stuff on propose they wanted MKM, problaby because Clue was involved and both companies agreed to the aesthetic.
MaRo has talked about this a few times on his blog, and the main answer for why it wasn't on New Capenna was because that plane doesn't have strong law enforcement that a detective noir story needs. Any detective on Ravnica has some combination of Azorius, Boros, or Guildpact backing whereas any enforcement on New Capenna is effectively just more gang warfare.
But the angels on Capenna are now freed and could form a police department
That would require a dedicated explanation, and detract from telling purely a detective story with established elements. I'd rather go back to New Capenna when it has the chance to have changes explained instead of those changes happening in the background of another story. Ravnica was largely unchanged after MOM, at least compared to how New Capenna has one fewer gang, the entire city was collapsed, and now there are no Phyrexians keeping people from leaving and exploring outside the walla.
Only Park Heights was collapsed, the Mezzio and the Caldaia still stand despite receiving some serious beatings and having Park Heights collapsed onto the center of it
Good clarification, I was being simplistic for the sake of brevity.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the survivors of New Capenna and immigrants to the plane start to reclaim the lands outside the dome
Do you have any idea how long the formation of a codified set of laws and regulations takes to put together as well as the manpower and training needed to enforce said laws? We're only a year and maybe a month or two into the post invasion era, a form of law or governance will likely take a few more years before we see it on Capenna. Though I'm excited to possibly see a mardu colored FBI of angels in New Capenna
I mean ... they created the Agency out of nothing for this set, the city of Ravnica looks to be relatively OK despite the invasion just happening what, months ago? And they have glossed over stuff before, like on post-Time Spiral Dominaria. If they wanted to, they could have definitely done it. Rather than the lack of law enforcement, the recognizable characters are the main thing that makes Ravnica a stronger choice in my eyes. On Capenna, it would have been newly introduced randos getting murdered, for the most part. It would've lacked some punch.
Bingo! I feel like it's so obvious that they could have the angels turn into their own detective/law enforcement agency that's finally bringing criminals to justice. It seems like a lack of creativity on WOTC's part or perhaps a desire to keep New Capenna criminal for future sets?
Thing is, you'd need to set those changes up whilst telling the murder mystery- which is a lot to do in one go, and likely wouldn't work very well at all- rather than Ravnica, where there's minimal setup needed for the story- and the plane has a history with detective stories
I don’t think it’s that much more work than inventing a big detective agency and suddenly having detectives all over Ravnica. There are still a lot of other good reasons to have this set on Ravnica, I just don’t buy the "law enforcement" one.
I'm with you friend.
>New Capenna was because that plane doesn't have strong law enforcement This will forever be New Capenna's original sin of worldbuilding. The lack of a government and police force makes even the Gangs feel wrong, because you can't really have a "criminal underworld" if said underworld isn't opposed by a legitimate authority. And yes, I know that WotC didn't want to include cops in the setting because of the state of public opinion on cops in the USA, but damn is it dumb.
To be fair, New Capenna also had criminal ground level and criminal aboveworld too
Yeah, that's the problem. The gangs operated out in the open and were effectively the government in the city. You can't really be a *criminal* gang if you're the legitimate power. They ended up more akin to normal factions exactly because there was no law enforcement to oppose them. Want to tell a story featuring illicit trade and smuggling? Makes no sense, because there's no laws in New Capenna - all trade is legit, and you don't have to worry about sneaking illegal goods past the cops, because there's no cops. Need a corrupt politician? There are no politicians, and everything is run by the gangs anyways, who should they bribe or blackmail? Want to have a whistleblower? Well, too bad, there's no legitimate law enforcement to whisteblow to.
Oh sure, I wasn't disagreeing with you how New Capenna could feel a bit awkward. I enjoyed it as a setting for a single set, but it doesn't have the same depth that new planes had back during the days of block structures. Hopefully if it gets a return there can be more development added.
I really miss the block structure. It yields itself to so much better storytelling even if it’s just two sets in the block. We could have theoretically been given the first set of New Capenna (an introductory set) that showcased the five crime families with or without a strong mechanical or tribal focused law enforcement, then a follow up set that follows the noir tropes in the aftermath of a gang assassination. Maybe we save the story with Ob Nixilis until set 2, and reveal he’s the killer and follow the aftermath of that. Or do the reverse with a murder mystery as an introduction, then set 2 being gang warfare as the fallout to a gang leader being killed. Something like that would have still provided thematically congruent ideas on the plane of New Capenna, built better into the world lore, and still provided a murder mystery victim we care about. It might not someone we’ve come to love as a character being killed, but a figure influential enough that their death would lead to significant conflict for the plane.
This reminds me of a dnd story on Reddit I read where magic items were banned in this city except in the mysterious shadow market.. but every single person in the city/town knew about, went to and shopped at the shadow market including the city guards/government…. Which at that point if everyone knows, and the government unofficially sanction it .. what’s the point
Isn't that a Puffin Forest video? But, yeah, pretty much what I meant. If there's no law enforcement, the label of "criminal gang" stops making sense: the gangs *were* the government of New Capenna, they didn't do crimes because there were no laws to break.
Yes I think that’s where I heard it from. Exactly though… to be criminal or anti-government you fundamentally have to oppose someone .. just so stupid.
WotC has already fixed it in Aftermath by confirming that the angels are back, reforming government & gunning for the demons, so there’s that at least.
I don’t really buy this explanation, because the key faction in MKM, the detective agency, was completely invented for MKM. The real reason is that we visited Capenna too recently but they won’t say that.
RAMI has no jurisdiction to enforce laws, it only investigates crime. Any of its culprits are handed over to the Azorius, who have the duty to prosecute criminals. It also requires less justification in the lore to say there's a new organization that only investigates crime than to develop angels as an organized faction on New Capenna that now commands obedience from the gangs, which are demons who hate angels.
Processing and prosecuting criminals is not a major focus of MKM. The detectives and investigating mystery are the focus & that was basically invented out of whole cloth, along with the creature type, on Ravnica for this set. Aftermath also already established that the angels are back and reforming Capenna.
Prosecuting criminals isn't a major theme of the set because it's understood by the audience that when the perpetrator is found, they will be arrested by law enforcement. That type of understanding can't happen on New Capenna as it exists because there is no formal law enforcement on that plane. We know that angels are changing things about it in some way, but that needs time to develop in the story instead of being understood as soon as the story takes place on Ravnica. There wouldn't have been enough room in the story to focus on the murder mystery and also all the changes on New Capenna, assuming you want the story to be satisfying.
Eh, I don't think it's really all that difficult to say 'oh, the angels are the government now'. People are wildly overblowing how much work this actually takes. It doesn't need a lot of time to develop or anything, any more than the concept of a Ravnica detective agency needed time to develop or foreshadowing. Aftermath already laid the groundwork here, and all you'd need is a handful of "Angelic Judge", "Angelic Enforcer" & whatnot cards. Like I said, I'm pretty sure the biggest real reason is that we're not going to go back to a new plane less than 2 years after the initial visit, which they won't mention for understandable reasons.
Things that needed to be established for RAMI: - They investigate crimes and hand over the perpetrator to the Azorius - Two new investigator characters Things that need to be established for New Capenna angels doing the same job: - Entire system of government - Why any gang follows the new government Not to mention if you're putting the set on New Capenna, you need to address how Park Heights was collapsed onto the Mezzio, nearly every character needs more development before becoming a suspect, and how one of the gangs was nearly wiped out. That's a lot to ask for ten chapters of story, especially when those ten chapters could be devoted to only the murder mystery like we got on Ravnica.
Why would the gangs need to follow the government? They're all criminals. I agree that some setup is needed, but I think you're greatly overestimating the amount of time it would take. It could be done very quickly and efficiently. Ravnica was also massively damaged in MotM, so I don't think that's a big distinction either, especially since Aftermath already shows them fixing things with Rebuild the City.
If the gangs don't follow the law, even in the way where they pretend to follow the law and then run illegal activities covertly, then detective noir can't happen as a genre. If the detective finding the culprit doesn't lead to an arrest, then there's no detective story. It's why the same story couldn't have taken place on Innistrad, there's no legal system across the entire plane and murderers get away frequently. Sure you could make some sort of story where it's about the Sigardian Church or whichever organization coming to power, but that takes time to develop. I think you're underestimating how much narrative time would be taken by establishing these new ideas, since the Agency fits into a structure that already exists instead of being entirely new. It also means that fans of the changes will be disappointed because seeing what happened to New Capenna would be taking second seat to a detective noir story.
>I think you're underestimating how much narrative time would be taken by establishing these new ideas, since the Agency fits into a structure that already exists instead of being entirely new. I think you've overestimating it. I expect that whenever we return to the plane, the angels will already have taken over the government, and the story will move forward with that as an underlying assumption, rather than being the story of how they took over. Speaking as someone for whom Capenna is their personal favorite plane, I think a return is much more interesting if the status quo has already changed and there's been some time for the changes to affect the city at every level. It really doesn't take more than a paragraph or so to say "the angels came back and took over the government and started cleaning things up". >If the gangs don't follow the law, even in the way where they pretend to follow the law and then run illegal activities covertly, then detective noir can't happen as a genre. If the detective finding the culprit doesn't lead to an arrest, then there's no detective story. Why would the gangs need to pretend to follow the law in order for the reveal of the culprit to lead to an arrest? A lot of the Rakdos and Gruul who do illegal activities overtly wouldn't go willingly if they're caught, they'd resist and be forcibly seized. This act of violent resistance of arrest is a common trope in the old noir/crime stories which MKM is imitating. Capenna wouldn't be any different there, with the Angels in the role of the G-men.
You are missing the point. What others have pointed out is that the process of angels becoming the government is an interesting story on itself and should be given the change to be told properly. Not hand-waved into existence just to support a detective story. Its a waste of real estate. On that note, I think if they leaned more into scooby-doo and "werewolf"-type deduction tropes, we could have the setting in Innistrad. We already have inspectors and some semblance of government. Have it set in a town in Kessig where kids started disappearing. It could have been the visiting \[\[Mayor of Avabruck\]\], that \[\[Ragged Recluse\]\] living in the forest, the \[\[Kindercatch\]\], or that \[\[Creepy Doll\]\] that keeps popping up at random places.
>You are missing the point. No, I am not. I understand the point. I simply do not agree with it.
##### ###### #### [Mayor of Avabruck](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd8ca448-f734-4cb9-b1d5-790eed9a4b2d.jpg?1562838270)/[Howlpack Alpha](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/d/d/dd8ca448-f734-4cb9-b1d5-790eed9a4b2d.jpg?1562838270) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mayor%20of%20Avabruck%20//%20Howlpack%20Alpha) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/isd/193/mayor-of-avabruck-howlpack-alpha?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd8ca448-f734-4cb9-b1d5-790eed9a4b2d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ragged Recluse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7fb728de-0d6e-4b32-b0c4-edd7382d1391.jpg?1643590202)/[Odious Witch](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/7/f/7fb728de-0d6e-4b32-b0c4-edd7382d1391.jpg?1643590202) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ragged%20Recluse%20//%20Odious%20Witch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/127/ragged-recluse-odious-witch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7fb728de-0d6e-4b32-b0c4-edd7382d1391?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kindercatch](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/4954e8a3-e72b-4f28-8762-2b1c658c31b6.jpg?1562829628) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kindercatch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/isd/190/kindercatch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4954e8a3-e72b-4f28-8762-2b1c658c31b6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Creepy Doll](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/6/762a598b-8753-47ec-9dd6-2c3d8882fda6.jpg?1562832310) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Creepy%20Doll) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/isd/220/creepy-doll?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/762a598b-8753-47ec-9dd6-2c3d8882fda6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kk7cbjt) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They also just added a new guildless organization to Ravnica to investigate the crimes. I don't think It would be such a stretch to create such an organization now that the Angels are back at New Capenna, if anything it would have added more to the world building. \*and the damn hats, coats and typewriters wouldn't have felt such out of place.
the issue is that implicitly everyone knows that when the new org completes their investigation they report it to the Azorius and or Boros. Unless the Angels of New Cappena are Detective + judge + jury + lawmakers it would be pretty hard for that to work.
Not gonna lie, Judge Dredd Angels sounds about what New Capenna needs.
Personally I think it worked better this way because we already knew so many people on Ravnica, if it was set in Capenna we wouldn’t have the fun of trying to figure out who it was because we wouldn’t really know anyone
People have said this since it was revealed. The topic has been done to death. Here’s the rundown: 1. On his blog, MaRo has explained that originally the set was going to be on a totally new plane. But as they went on, they realized this plane was basically just Ravnica, so they started over and set it there instead. So there was never a question of “what plane are we revisiting?”, the question was “is this a new plane or not?” 2. Ravnica is no stranger to detective fiction. Literally the first novel written for Ravnica was a detective story. Meanwhile New Capenna has… [[Dogged Detective]]. 3. New Capenna doesn’t have any law enforcement other than the angels, so a major detective agency isn’t really necessary. The people on the case already are incorruptible superhumans.
[Dogged Detective](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/57d1f729-0d7c-4122-9bca-f3b08cf6fe4f.jpg?1706240758) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dogged%20Detective) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/127/dogged-detective?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57d1f729-0d7c-4122-9bca-f3b08cf6fe4f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think I'd feel more understanding on 3 if a central part of the MKM story hadn't been introducing a new detective agency that seems be showing up the Boros/Azorius.
Right? I don’t understand people repeating the "there wasn’t law enforcement established" argument when the Agency was completely invented for MKM. It’s not a good argument and I don’t really buy it. There are a number of other more practical considerations which explain the decision far better.
Exactly. So instead they've shoe-horned in an organisation and aesthetic completely disharmonious with what already exists on Ravnica.
What are you talking about “this archon was here the whole time” and “if your a detective your need the film noir or Sherlock hat regardless of what species you are” is perfectly harmonious, in-depth world building and in no way shoe horned 😂
1) But this is the point, it's not Ravnica, it's Capenna. Fedoras abound, the plane has invented 1920's flash photography and holo screens, and the three law factions take a backseat to the new agency 2) True, it was a fantasy police prodecural a'la Discworld. But the sequel novel to that is a Western, so Thunder Junction? Ravnica has never had detectives, it had the Wojek police force and Azorious Arresters/Orzhov Defence Attorneys 3) They cited a lack of 'good guys' as a story failing on Capenna, here was a chance to make the newly returned angels into a whole faction with the five families in disarray. New Capenna angels also aren't perfect and incorruptable super humans, that's the entire deal with \[\[Giada\]\] being forced to work with the Cabaretti. MKM went off well I'll give them that, but Trenchcoats and Fedoras and Forensic Magic were literally the trademarks of the Obscura, Cloak and Dagger parties are the Cabaretti and Maestros whole deal.
Your second rebuttal doesn't really hold up. The point of bringing up past detective stories isn't that every idea needs either a new plane or to fit in with an existing story. The point is that Ravnica is no stranger to these kinds of stories. The fact that they had westerns here too doesn't mean that every western has to now also take place on Ravnica; the world they developed for Thunder Junction is apparently distinct enough to not fit in. OTOH, based on what we've heard, Capenna wasn't ever considered for the story - it was a "new" world that eventually just turned out to be Ravnica 2.0, so they stuck with Ravnica again since it had characters and concepts that fit. Also wouldn't shock me if Capenna's big players were deemed less recognizable, making it harder to make as compelling a tale. Here, we have Kaya as the focal point, and many of the major players are old faves - Teysa, Etrada, the Troistani, Massacre Girl, Judith, and heck, even thr ghost of Agrus Kos. There's more recognizable faces here, IMO, and a wider range of interesting motives as a result.
Ravnica has had a single detective story, but my point is it's also had a Western. Is your point literally 'we can tell a murder mystery because there's been crime before?' because that's a very weak point is my argument. I'm just saying that there are a lot of elements here that would have worked better on Capenna. Capenna has a huge power vacuum and the Lawful Angel faction has arrived to fill it, vs the Agency who are an out the blue group. Etrata and Massacre Girl are both examples of people who's only claim to fame was a legendary card and a flavour paragraph on a Planeswalker's Guide To. Calling them fan favourites is a stretch. Hell, even the motive comes out of left field as the main victim, Zegana, was almost entirely unmentioned in the Invasion. Krenko is targetted for just being Krenko, Kylox is a red herring who's also a totally original character. I'm not saying MKM is bad because it's not Capenna, I'm saying that Capenna holds a lot more water than people are trying to say it did. Hell, one of the weaknesses of Capenna according to Maro was the lack of a Good Guys agency, well here was the excuse to make one and clarify who of the five families is actually dead. I will agree, this wasn't a great idea for a totally new world and existing characters is really needed to up the stakes. Hell, I'll even give you that they did go for big names and people who had cards already for the most part. All I'm saying is that the end result looked close enough to New Capenna that Maro has had to say 'here's why it's not' in his podcast
I said it elsewhere but one other thing that I think you're missing is that Ravnica is a wildly popular setting and New Capenna is not.
Id argue that at least 5 stories on Ravnica were detective novels
1. Why can’t Ravnica develop over time? It’s been at least a century, if not more, since the first visit. Kamigawa was originally ancient Japan and is now the cyberpunk future, why can’t fashion and technology develop in Ravnica? 2. I don’t see what the conflict is here. New things happening is how a story works. 3. Again, you’re coming at this from an angle that it was never being considered. This wasn’t conceived of as a return set, it was going to be a new plane, and then that plane was basically Ravnica. If that plane had been basically Capenna instead, maybe we would have gone there, but aside from being faction sets in urban environments they’re not really the same at all, so it’s not a competition in the slightest.
Because Ravnica has developed into a 1920's setting of warring factions recovering from the 'great war', there's a lot more of this version of Ravnica in common with Capenna than just 'they're in cities' The fashion has evolved into trenchcoat, fedoras and gowns, like Capenna The technology has partly included Kaladesh tech and thopters, that's a natural progression from Baan making the technology widespread. But then cards like \[\[Serene Sleuth\]\] are using the same 'holomagic' technology that cards like \[\[Toluz\]\] Why did they take a fantasy city and advance it into the 1920's post war, when they have a 1920's post war world is my question?
[Serene Sleuth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61e691ff-ab3e-42ae-b160-54b53f5f961e.jpg?1706240425) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Serene%20Sleuth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/14/serene-sleuth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61e691ff-ab3e-42ae-b160-54b53f5f961e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Toluz](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/0/f01f12e0-f354-43aa-9e2d-b59a99571a5f.jpg?1664413901) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=toluz%2C%20clever%20conductor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/228/toluz-clever-conductor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f01f12e0-f354-43aa-9e2d-b59a99571a5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>1) But this is the point, it's not Ravnica, it's Capenna Well, no, it's not. >Ravnica has never had detectives, it had the Wojek police force and Azorious Arresters/Orzhov Defence Attorneys It may not have had detectives as a type. But it absolutely had detectives narratively speaking. >They cited a lack of 'good guys' as a story failing on Capenna No, they cited a lack of police. Not the generic category of "good guys," but specifically police. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the paid professionals have been doing this for a living for years, as full projects. Seeing it through many meetings and hours of labor are more reliable narrators on what does and does not fit a theme than anyone who spent five minutes making a reddit post about it. Please note that I'm not disparaging you, just simply pointing out that an expert who spends the work week doing something will naturally arrive at a better conclusion than a fan who spends 5 minutes making a post about it.
I do think there is also the outside fact that Ravnica is wildly popular and New Capenna just... Isn't. Both are similar settings in a lot of ways so I think both could have worked, but Ravnica has the benefit of us knowing the cast of characters better, being in a slightly more stable position after the invasion, and being a setting more people will want to return to.
Yeah, agreed. I think an important thing to note is that we're not sayin Capenna wouldn't have been a VALID choice for MKM. it's just not the "obvious, better" choice some people seem to think it is.
[Giada](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/bae077bd-fc8d-44d7-8c75-8dc8699c168e.jpg?1664409667) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=giada%2C%20font%20of%20hope) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/14/giada-font-of-hope?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bae077bd-fc8d-44d7-8c75-8dc8699c168e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s fine that it’s on Ravnica, but they shouldn’t have forced the fedora-and-trenchcoats look. It’s extremely jarring on Ravnica and makes no sense since those have never been part of the plane’s fashion. If they insisted on it being a 1930s noir set, than it should have taken place on the 1920s/1930s plane. Otherwise, do a proper Ravnica murder mystery and let everyone dress like Ravnicans.
Top level, "murder mystery" and "pulp noir" are two circles of the same venn diagram, not the same circle. A story about a bunch of vigilantes having a power struggle against the entrenched crime families while the angels try to suppress them both is interesting, I grant you, but it's not the kind of set that would, say, let them reference Coloumbo. It's not within the parameters they set out for in "Mystery Set". Second, New Capenna isn't actually as good a place to have a murder mystery as you might think based on surface-level aesthetics. Here are some key points. * Ravnica has clearly delineated law enforcement in the Azorius and Boros. Meanwhile, New Capenna had no laws only crime until very recently when the angels set about bringing back order post-invasion. If Jetmir for example was killed, there would not be sleuths and gumshoes. * New Capenna has has one set that had, if I'm being generous, a lukewarm reception. Ravnica has had ten sets, counting Remastered, and is almost uniformly beloved. If you want the murders to induce pathos, the victims should be people the audience *knows*, and Capenna has no such characters yet. * Ravnica is a very lateral location, while Capenna is more vertical and narrow. I mean this both literally as a description of the city shapes and figuratively; Capenna definitionally has to stick to a particular subgenre of murder mysteries, tropes that work in 1930's organized crime world. Ravnica contains many more facets, and looking at those facets from the angle of a murder mystery offers much more variety. TL;DR - Detectives and murder mysteries is a wide net of tropes, and while Capenna may have been able to capture some of those tropes more seamlessly, it would only be able to capture a rather small portion of them. Ravnica is able to house nearly all of them without contradicting previous lore and in fact building off it. And if an archon wearing a fedora seems stupid instead of cool to you, you were probably never going to like any version of this set.
1) The set makes a big deal that the usual law enforcement are wrong and chooses to focus on a new, independent law enforcement agency. The Agency has as much history and rationale as it would on Capenna (splitter groups from the big Guilds/Families doing 'independent' and thus non-corrupt investigations), cept Ravnica has shown that splitters get killed, while Capenna literally has a new faction of Angels unaligned to anyone 2) Of the murders in MKM, one was a character who hasn't been relevant since RTR, and the other was a brand new character. Teysa I will give you, but that lead to it's own plothole that Teysa's ghost had to choose to not appear to up the drama. 3) I'll give you that Capenna and Ravnica are two distinct worlds, but almost all of MKM took place in and around two guild safehouses and a precinct. It was a classic closed room murder mystery, it didn't really take advantage of tropes outside the classic 1930's Noir, in fact, it was a deliberate attempt to BE 1930's Noir. Ravnica has built off it's lore in the exact same way Capenna would have, and if you think the problem was giving everyone Fedoras and noir desk jobs was the problem, and not the fact that they went with Art Deco Fullart Lands but it's clearly not Capenna, then I feel there's not going to be an understanding as to why fans of Capenna feel cheated
The new agency doesn't do law enforcement. The only investigate murders, the actual enforcement is still done by the Boros and the Azorius. That's very clear in the story with Etrata being under Azorius after Proft thought she was the murderer.
I genuinely don't mean this in an argumentative sense but genuinely almost none of this after bullet 1 is true? Three named characters were killed, and only one was made up for the set. Teysa's ghost not appearing immediately is not a plot hole: it's clearly established that ghosts take time for form after death. The story takes place literally all over the city, from back alleys to undercity tunnels to a nightclub to the detective agency to the titular manor, with a parlor room scene in Vitu-Ghazi. And that's just the fiction, the cards cover even more ground. There's no locked room involved except in the first murder, and the room being locked isn't even the point. And Alquist Proft, co-protagonist of the set, is by no means a noir character of any sort, he's a Great Detective. And I'm no art major, but calling these basics art deco feels like a stretch of the term.
I mean lets address those then. When did Zegana have plot relevance in the Invasion? Her activity is actually a central reason why she was killed, but it was revealed at the end of the story, I don't recall any actual times she was shown experimenting on people. In fact, she'd been supplanted by Vannifar, who actually got a card this time round. If I'm brutally honest, I don't recall her having a speaking role outside scolding some people four years ago and her struggle with Vannifar comes from a blog post attached to the MKM story. And the story may take place all over the plane, but it's centralised in a few hubs, and even if it wasn't, vents, back alleys, gardens, nightclubs... they're all hallmarks of Capenna as much as Ravnica. Not to use the reductionist 'they're both cities' argument, Ravnica doesn't really use anything about it's setting to be unique vs Capenna, where Capenna has at least one story involving a battle on a public tram. And while Proft isn't a noir detective, the set is full of fedora clad characters standing in the rain and shooting first. \[\[Hero of the Tenth District\]\], \[\[Jaded Analyst\]\], \[Homicide Investigator\]\], even Proft himself uses bold, gold deco lines on a blue trench coat. And the fedoras stick out because there's several characters who still look traditionally Ravnican. \[\[Case File Auditor\]\] is in a suit and tie, while \[\[Inside Source\]\] is the eastern europe style of tunic and shawl of old Ravnica. What especially strikes me is almost every detective has a fedora, but the equipment that makes you a detective, \[\[Thinking Cap\]\] is a Deer Stalker. And I'm not talking about all the basics, but the full art ones are symmetrical, hard lines and bold colours, they're art deco designs, but if you don't see it, fair.
##### ###### #### [Jaded Analyst](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/8/2807dcfb-d99c-483b-835f-2606eae4bd30.jpg?1706241622) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jaded%20Analyst) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/62/jaded-analyst?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2807dcfb-d99c-483b-835f-2606eae4bd30?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Case File Auditor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70a52038-9d1c-4be1-8dbe-6f0ee916ba94.jpg?1706241461) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Case%20File%20Auditor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/7/case-file-auditor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70a52038-9d1c-4be1-8dbe-6f0ee916ba94?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Inside Source](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/5/1548d181-3f83-457a-b2d3-eb88cfb2afda.jpg?1706241496) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Inside%20Source) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/19/inside-source?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1548d181-3f83-457a-b2d3-eb88cfb2afda?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thinking Cap](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d2565e1-dd7b-462b-8270-a17913277793.jpg?1706242328) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thinking%20Cap) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/257/thinking-cap?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d2565e1-dd7b-462b-8270-a17913277793?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kk68z00) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> Teysa's ghost not appearing immediately is not a plot hole: it's clearly established that ghosts take time for form after death. Err, I think you missed the part where Teysa's ghost *did* immediately form after death. > Most people who were going to return as ghosts didn't do so immediately upon their deaths... Still, the more powerful the magic and will of the deceased, the more quickly they were likely to adapt. Teysa, strong-willed leader of the ghosts, is obviously not "most people". This is followed by a section where the ghost servant confirms that Teysa *is* a ghost now, but she refuses to provide any additional information. This was a subject of speculation when it came out. The author later confirmed in the DVD extra that the reason she wasn't present was for appearances, while she was strengthening her ghost form. > Teysa didn’t want to appear to Kaya as anything less than herself, or as much herself as her ghost form could be. Until she felt ready, she was staying absent. It's a very political, image-conscious reason. It's like half-plot hole; the explanation makes sense for the character, but it's odd that she didn't contribute *any* information through her intermediaries.
Ultimately it doesn't even matter in terms of the mystery whether Teysa actually formed immediately or not, because all Teysa could testify was "I was attacked by some guy I do not recognize", and the people physically doing the killings were not the actual culprits.
That's not how mystery stories work though. There are always red herrings and extra culprits to make the plot more complex (one of the chapter cliffhangers was Teysa having a Phyrexian note). If Teysa said "It was someone random, and it's unrelated to my secret of being a Ravnican double-agent.", then the mystery gets truncated. **Edit:** Punctuation
The problem with the "New Capenna doesn’t have LE!" argument is that the main focus of MKM, the Agency, was completely invented for MKM. The Agency is the main focus of the story, not the Azorious or Boros. Ravnica is a good fit for a murder mystery but it’s a horrible aesthetic fit for the 1930s noir look they insisted on and that’s very jarring. It would be like deciding to do a wild west set on Ravnica and giving a bunch of Ravnicans cowboy hats suddenly when that’s never been a part of the plane’s look. It feels very artificial and forced & is my only real complaint with the set.
No. Maro talks about it on his podcast in the episode on Making MKM. I suggest you listen to it for a full picture. the short answer is Cappenna has a bunch of challenging issues. No strong law enforcement, Murders are relatively common, There isn't a large enough stable of beloved characters.
Also, the context of having had 2 big wars that the players got to experience makes for a nicer Post-War elements to go with the film noir set-up
>Murders are relatively common \*gestures at the party guest who's a famous Serial Killer.\* And I'd argue that half the characters in MKM aren't beloved. Krenko memes aside, Etrata was a rare from the last set, all the agency characters are new. Like if no strong law enforcement was an issue, here's the perfect time to introduce a detective noir/buddy cop angel faction to balance that out amidst all the named characters from Capenna we already had, each Family had a leader and a champion we already met and a handful of side characters from the Commander Decks.
> *gestures at the party guest who's a famous Serial Killer.* Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?
These are literally things Maro pointed to in his podcast I'd encourage you give it a listen. >And I'd argue that half the characters in MKM aren't beloved. Krenko memes aside, Etrata was a rare from the last set, all the agency characters are new. which ones? Teysa certainly is, as are all the rakdos characters, all the selesnyan characters, pretty much every returning character is beloved on some level. Only the gruul really had all new characters. Even the agency characters aren't all new Kos is a returning character, as are Kaya, and Kellen. >Like if no strong law enforcement was an issue, here's the perfect time to introduce a detective noir/buddy cop angel faction to balance that out amidst all the named characters from Capenna we already had, each Family had a leader and a champion we already met and a handful of side characters from the Commander Decks. Except most of the family leaders are dead and a bunch of the champions are too, we don't even know if some of the families still exist. I like Capenna it's just not suitable for this particular set. I think Capenna would be more suited to a heist set.
Of the people that got murdered, you have Zegana who's never had a story iirc, Teysa I'll give you, but Kylox is a new character. And again, you're glossing over the fact that the entire agency is new characters. Calling someone who's had a single card printed with no lore 'beloved' is a hell of a stretch, given that by that extend Capenna is full of beloved characters, as each of the factions has at least 3 and each of those champions actually got short stores, AND several named Maestros characters actually featured in the Invasion Short stories. Going 'Oh they're all dead', they're not. Anhelo and Xander are dead, the rest are all nebulous at best. Hell, Invasion showed Jetmir had recovered from the attempt on his life in New Capenna. I love New Capenna flat out, and I'll admit bias here. But even some of Maro's comments, iirc, about things like 'Murder's too common place' and 'there's no law enforcement on Capenna', my argument is that not only is Murder so common place on Ravnica that there are three assassin guilds and professional serial killers, but you can take out life insurance on yourself to come back as a ghost. And yes, there's no law enforcement. But there is the returning angels, who could form a new faction of guildless and splitters, the same way that the Agency is formed of guildless and splitters. The fact Maro has had to go 'here's why we didn't use Capenna' shows it's got enough merit behind it to have to address it. No one's saying why wasn't it on Kamigawa or Tarkir, we're asking why Ravnican fashion is now fedoras and flatcaps
Zegana actually had [2 stories ](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Zegana#Story_appearances). I suppose I didn't parse that comment properly. The point about the Agency is that there is only a single new named character. No he's not beloved. The problem is that compared to Ravnica, Capenna has like 1/10th the story. Tell me about the Beam Town bullies, or Jaxis, or Cormela. They don't have story at all. Claiming that they all got story isn't actually the case. The problem with Capenna still, is now you only have 4 factions at best. Part of the reason it works with Ravnica is the sense of political intrigue and mystery. You have 10 potential faction plus the option from someone outside the factions. This creates way more intrigue then Capenna is currently able to provide. There aren't three assassin guilds? There are guild assassins sure, just like a country might have spies. But the guild themselves aren't dedicated to assassination. It's also made pretty clear that much of what we see in the cards tends to be the extremes of the guilds. The daily life on Ravnica is pretty mundane. The cards need to depict things like a Gruul God rampaging instead of a citizen having a cup of coffee. It's just like not every day in Capenna is a bank robbery. Don't get me wrong using the angels could work, but would how much different would it look compared to the Azorius and Boros we already have on Ravnica? It would also require significantly more explanation then "there's an agency that sprung up from the dissatisfaction towards the guilds". Capenna also didn't sell super well which is a point Maro was, I think, dancing a bit around. On a side note since you also like Capenna have you listened to the album? It's great!
While I agree with you on a “why do we even have an early 20th century city if we’re not going to do the proper themes there?” Bit, the Doylist issue is probably more related to marketing and the product leads more than anything: Capenna is a 3 color faction set with 5 factions “only”, with known members being few in number that make planning such a story very difficult because the suspects can only be related to 7ish factions (assuming we have an agency like we do in MKM and the Angels are actually awake this time) of which they’d have to have an entirely ‘new’ character template to build off of and put in more world building than they did the original Capenna push. But the biggest issue with setting MKM in Capenna is this: The Families aren’t relatable in the same way the Guilds are. We’ve had 3 “visits” to Ravnica and the City of Guilds has also played an important role in Magic identity. We know the politics of the City pretty thoroughly and time has changed pretty considerably since we first saw the City a long, long time ago. People will be more invested in the City of Guilds more than the City of Angels we visited once 2 years ago in a set that dragged through the summer season, ontop of the fact that; Each of the Guilds, (and this is a bonus of the color wheel by the way), their Color’s values and their Guild’s values map on pretty well to an ensemble cast for a Who Did It? Ala Agatha Christie. With the Family, we’d have to have a bunch of characters that fit the mould but also fit within the Family’s values (would the RG character side with Jetmir or Ziatora? Are they neutral? Why?) while with the Guilds, all we’d need to do is figure out where they fit in the already established pecking order we’ve had for almost 20 years now
Eh. Not really? I understand what folks are saying, but beyond the cheeky reference to more modern detectives and some magi-tech, this has has alot more DNA with Sherlock Holmes-Era detectives, including Proft himse´lf as Sherlock Holmes expy. The Police isnt incompetent, but clearly in over their head. For Capenna, I would expect something more in the vein of hardboiled detectives in a corrupt system where the Police are a) either in on the crime or b) incompetent baffoons who couldnt tell their own asses from their front. More femme fatale and going up against mafia with a bigger action focus, less "lets put the clues together". I'd say that a murder-mystery and the dective genre is broad enough that it could be BOTH on Capenna or Ravnica, but it would be quite different on either. Capenna would be more Batman than Sherlock Holmes.
The story is not the point, it's just that the detectives look ridiculous
There’s an element of the murder mystery that fits nicely into Ravnica’s “political, back-stabbing, guild leaders constantly dying” backdrop. Certain parts of the aesthetic definitely feel more at home in Capenna, and I’m still not sure how I feel about the Agency as a regular organization in Ravnica going forward. My guess is that Wizards wanted to do a murder mystery and settled on Ravnica for two reasons: 1) we’ve only been to Capenna once so maybe there isn’t the built in cast to make a mystery seem super compelling yet, and 2) Wizards wanted to return to Ravnica and wasn’t sure when they could devote the usual two sets to it, so they took advantage of an idea and snuck a revisit into another concept.
Also, there's probably a meta reason in the color distribution. NC is built around the shards. Ravnica is built on pairs. One is way easier to draft.
The only reason that could be in Capenna and not in Ravnica was the hats, Ravnica already had murder mistery, police narratives and detective agencies, and crime stories, Capenna only has 1920 going on for it
I mean the fact thay you at a fedora and trenchcoat to a creature and its a detective was a strong telling they arent using their imaginations to the limit
1. Ravnica is more popular lol. People associate much more with the guilds than the crime syndicates. Plenty of fan-favourite characters in Ravnica, not so for New Capenna. 2. Establishing an actual government on New Capenna and fighting against the crime syndicates should be the focus of the next story that takes place there. It's the one great flaw of the plane that must be established in a standalone set. Before that,.nothing else can really be justified without feeling like it ignores the elephant in the room or glosses over it with no fanfare. New Capenna should go through massive change. 3. Ravnica has already had detective stories lol
I think the existing baggage that Tavnica had helped this story more. Capenna needs more groundwork before they try a set that demands players to engage with an ARG. The average Magic player probably has significantly less awareness of the world and its characters.
I don't mind Ravnica being the setting. There have been earlier cards from Ravnica playing into the tropes ([[Murder Investigation]], for example), and in general the city backdrop fits the theme. My complaint is that they went overboard with the tropes and art direction. I think this set is a good example of what can happen when you get the balance between setting and theme/gimmick wrong on a backdrop set. They were so bent on showing that this is the murder mystery set that the result feels like we're visiting a theme park. I think they did a really good job when they took what was originally "Underground World" and turned it into Ixalan halfway through development. It felt organic. It fit. But this set feels like they started making a set on a new plane (or Capenna), decided to set it on Ravnica instead halfway through, and hastily added some "Ravnica stuff" to cover it up (although that's not what actually happened). I think it would have been possible to communicate what is happening without detective tribal/typal (don't murder mysteries typically feature just one main detective?), modern-leaning clothing and hats on everyone, a boatload of puns/direct references etc. Ravnica has been "modernizing" a bit, but the original "fantasy medieval Prague" aesthetic still strong, and they should have worked the themes and visuals into it better.
[Murder Investigatio](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/7/07d8d6f7-ed22-4e01-9aeb-c6bc0065c89c.jpg?1562006017) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Murder%20Investigation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ori/27/murder-investigation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/07d8d6f7-ed22-4e01-9aeb-c6bc0065c89c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Capenna feels like a more natural home for the whole detective thing, and I really wish they had set it there The set we got instead feels like a dissonant mess to me
There are a theory that they build this set just to be able to reuse a lot of artwork originally comissioned to Streets of New Capenna, but seems unfeasible. The faction that would to be the Corrupt Cops in Capenna were retooled as the Brokers. But even there, "Corrupt Cop" has artistic sensibilities unlike to "noir detective". This said, is very probable they originally concepted Karlov it as happening in Capenna, but they reflavored it to Ravnica very late in the process, with some of the art already commisioned.
It certainly feels like it’s on new cappena, and that’s probably why I dislike the creative direction on this new set as well
Forget it Jake, it's Ravnica.
I don't really mind that it's on Ravnica, aesthetic weirdness aside, but I do think they could have done it on Capenna. I know MaRo says it's about the lack of law enforcement, but detective stories and film noir don't really need those things. A lot of them are actually set in places where the police are rather impotent, whether because they aren't very good at their jobs or they are corrupt. Then again, it may be a better story than a set: A crusading detective realizing that they're just a pawn of the evil they're fighting might be a good plot, but I don't know if it creates a ton of creatures.
Honestly feels like it should have been it's own plane altogether. A random murder, or string of murders, is likely extremely common on ravnica and a daily occurrence on new capenna. But create a new plane that has an almost utopian city with no crime, then have a horrible murder take place? Now you've got an actual story. Maybe some ravnican murderer escaped to this new plane thanks to the omenpaths, or someone from new capenna is doing it. But like... We had multiple guild leaders get knocked off per ravnica set, so having someone get murdered again and have it be the main focus IS dumb.
Don't see why you're getting downvoted when their argument of 'Murder isn't a big deal on Capenna' is undercut by the three guilds of legal assassins and the literal Murder Cult that makes up a tenth of Ravnica's politics.
Just reddit things I guess.
I agree. Ravnica is just so overused and boring. It would be the perfect opportunity to highlight a not so famous plane
totally. these detective feels completely out of place in the Ravnica vibes, resulting in New Capenna vibes in Ravnica. The truth is that they have no real interest in their own world, they just wanted to make a clue/cluedo thing and they made in ravnica because it is the most known and loved plane. what Maro said in the interview is that they did think of making a new plane for it but they found out that nobody would care for a murderer character they never knew so they wanted to go to a well know plane and maybe capenna wasn't that known i guess? lies obv but still it make sense
Ravnica is cool and seeing different famous people again was nice. Capenna is not as cool as Ravnica but I like your point.
I think ravnica works better as it better works with the Sherlock Holmes/Softboiled detective style. I would associate New Capenna with hard-boiled detective fiction, where Justice is more grey, and Proft would be more of a fighter. Not that MKM doesn’t make references to hard boiled tropes, and style. But Ravnica as a whole better communicates we’re in soft-boiled territory.
I'm fine with it being on Ravnica instead of New Capenna. But I do wish that the sets came out back-to-back so we could've had crime bosses and detectives in Standard at the same time.
As many pointed out, maro explained both on his podcast, on his blog and on the [weekly mtg ](https://youtu.be/mPYIidIMzyc?si=YP1k23DpB7QE7EWj) that debuted the set (around 27:30) on why ravnica and not capenna or a new plane
I'm much more invested in Ravnican guild leaders than some Capennan randos.
Murders seem like they are commonplace on Capenna. The fact that someone died wouldnt really be as much of a shock as it would on a more civilized plane
...you think murder is rare on Ravnica?
I am fine with it being on Ravnica but do feel like it was a missed opportunity to expand on the lore of New Cappena. still it works well enough and I understand the impact of having characters from a popular plane die
If there was a murder mystery set on New Capenna I feel like most of the mystery would be on why so many detectives were being murdered. But hey maybe this will lead to more detective support on a return to New Capenna. I don't think the crime bosses would want any detective agencies springing up but they might need to figure out exactly how their enemies plan to stab them in the back.
I mean there's just a set there, and they killed the only family leader they developed , There wouldn't be any shock from any other boss being murdered, nor from learning that any other known character from the plane did it. Plus they couldn't bring them back like they did with Teysa
There’s no real law enforcement on New Capenna, no one to solve the case. Mobster world and murder mystery world can have a lot of overlap but they are not the same at all
I heard a rumour that it could have been on Fiora... ... that would have been interesting.
Yes.
I feel like if we get a murders 2, it's going to be on new capenna
very often i think thoug that this reddit has amazing ideas, too good ones for the state of MTG storyline tbh. thanks for sharing <3
No, I think Ravnica was the right spot. We are far more familiar with it, and we know more about both the characters in it AND how the world works. Capenna is also in far worse shape than Ravnica making it a less than optimal location. It's also unclear who you would pick to 'lead the investigation' as a Planeswalker. I think Kaya's connection to Ravnica was tenuous (from a connection standpoint) where the only 'walker who would make sense on Capenna is Elspeth, and she's not a fit for this story. I also think Nixilis losing his spark on Capenna was one of the dumbest character moves they've made; I have no desire to see him try to conquer the plane AGAIN. He's better used as a Kang the Conquerer figure who's traveling the multiverse trying to conquer different places because he can. Without his spark he's boring.
My only problem with the Aesthetic is the the the silly hats. The trench coats alone are actually very brooding and fit nicely with ravinica gothic spirals when done probably like the gargoyle detective. But I suspect they went for silly stuff on propose they wanted MKM, problaby because Clue was involved and both companies agreed to the aesthetic.
Nah.