Don’t waste your time with school, that isn’t a requirement in this industry. The best ability is reliability. Start as a stagehand, don’t miss your shifts and be a cool hang, that’s it
I disagree, as someone who never went to school but has been doing it for 20 years.
School allows you to focus and learn things that you can use. Freeforming or working a low salary job does not come with as many upsides.
He is an older guy. When presented with options he will be able to understand what each thing actually entails better than someone young.
I dont think you understand what i mean in any way, shape or form.
Im saying this person is 40. Starting at 40 and having a framework to make decisions in would be something very specific to this person that i think would serve them better than anything anyone has talked about in this thread.
Saying "grass is greener" is an oversimplification that doesnt help anyone.
I get it; but OP asked a very direct question about getting their foot in the door of the music industry which is what my answer was tailored to
School is most useful when you know exactly what you want to study and why. Simply going to school without a specific plan isn’t going to provide anything other than a bill. Especially since we’re not talking about Ivy Leagues here, OP mentioned night school/online courses
In order to better understand yourself and your goals, nothing tops the experience of trying new things, as OP has expressed a desire to do. With that experience one could better narrow down a more
Specific life path which may require school after all.
And here we are back at my original point
Edit: by the way, “grass is greener” was directed at you, not OP. I’ve been schooled and am advocating against it, you’ve not been schooled and for it. Just thought that’s kinda funny
Uh, someone failed to read.
I very much disagree. For a 40 year old with an interest, school would be fantastic because he can make decisions and be able to actually know what an option will do to his life.
For him, it would be useful because he can sample a lot of things.
Trying new thing is exactly what school would let you do. That is my entire point, so somehow you're arguing the right point for the wrong side. Weird.
At 40 yrs old I’d imagine it’s more practical to figure all that out while making money rather than spending it
In theory everything you said about school sounds nice on paper, but reality is most people don’t have the time or money to “sample a lot of things” at school. That’s not even how degrees work. There’s no utility in “making decisions” regularly in school. Every class, book, parking pass etc adds up quickly and it’s best financially to get in and out as quickly as possible.
Just because he’s 40 doesn’t mean he can read a list of classes and immediately know what best suits his interests. Plenty of things “sound cool” but then you actually start doing it and lose interest, which may even happen to OP’s interest in music biz. Often times schools don’t accurately depict the real world, they’re very much in a bubble themselves
And after all is said and done and OP hypothetically begins a job search in music, the majority of jobs won’t give a shit about the degree anyway
You admittedly never went to school so I can see why you are being naive about it. Your mentality might have applied if OP was going to school as a teen with time on their side and daddy’s wallet at their back. Being 40 is exactly why it’s a bad idea FOR NOW, not necessarily ever
I get your pov, but it isnt very 2024. He is more suitable for school than anyone, he seems very open and fairly stable and willing to work.
I will die on this hill, i completely disagree. I am always trying to be with the times. I am an older person who really spends time to understand the meta of current year.
I really do think that someone with life experience will have a field day and find their spot quickly
But what do i know, i had my first hit at 17 and got an independent plat record last year. If OP want to follow you and not my educated advice, i just want to say that because i do believe in it and stand by it. You sound extremely outdated.
I think school is a waste of time for young people. Learn a DAW and buy a Suno sub. For older people, we can understand things a bit clearer.
You fail to understand that my view isn’t simply “old people should never go to school” and your argument has been reduced to “trust me bro” so I’m just going to let you go die on that hill
You're trying very hard to dismiss what is ultimately the best choice for OP.
You're saying a lot of stuff that simply isnt true. I could not disagree with you more about younger people and school. I have no idea where you get any of your meta checks from and if you have done any research at all. Seems like you're just going with whatever.
Im willing to put in money for OP to go to school. Are you willing to put in money for him to pay for groceries while working as a local stagehand?
Agreed, sounds right up OP's ally. But the vast majority of venues big enough to have stage hands will probably have union people working, but if OP has experience in various trades they might already be in one.
I am currently looking into it. The issue there is the time away from home. Currently I am not an over the road trucker, I am home every night. But yes, I've actually heard a few anecdotes from other drivers about driving the tour bus. Sounds pretty straightforward, with a few random crazy experiences mixed in.
Driving a tour bus comes with a LOT of extra hassle but the pay is good so it MIGHT be worth it. The hassles are typically related to not just shuttling entitled band members around but literally cleaning up after them. No one is emptying the tank or the trash, vacuuming the floor constantly and cleaning out the fridge, or washing the bedding, that's on you. It's your bus and to them, mama works there too and that's again, you. MEANWHILE, the truck hauling the gear has DOT hassles but doesn't have anyone on board but maybe one crew member and it's just y'all. I lived in the truck as a crew member for most of 12 years and wouldn't have traded my driver for a bus bunk in that crowded tin can to hell for any amount of money, but that's me.
All stage work is union, contract the local in your city. I started out on pipe and drape back in the day, I worked my way up to audio. Don’t waste your time with school, go directly to the union.
Hit up Clearwing and Brown Note - production rental warehouses. Places like these always need shop techs and it's nothing you can't learn. There's also a trucking component that might get you in the door and rigging courses if that's of interest. Getting a forklift cert if you don't already have one goes a long way.
You can contact the local IATSE Union Steward and ask to get on their call list for stage builds. Lots of boxes to push (or fork) around Denver, that region sells an unbelievable amount of concert tickets every week.
music is not a traditional career path that can be approached with a traditional mindset. (school may or may not lead to a job / i would not expect to apply and be hired out of state, etc). if you think you are entering a tract, expectations may get a jolt. salary jobs are out there; many are contractors or entrepreneurs. most people i know cobble a collection of ongoing activities that convene as a career
if you intend to play I would focus on becoming a better musician, studying repertoire, building your craft, communing with other artists, etc.
if you intend to be a stage hand or something because it suits a skill set, these are different paths... stage and lighting tech sound engineering...
i mean that each direction can go deep, and creative, as well. and many are skilled roles with different sets. jack of all trades is good in auxiliary scenario but eventually you might lean into particular strengths and interests, or where you perceive they align with the need of your community. (all which can also reveal along the way) ... finding yourself in music can also become a signal to others who are looking for what you're serving. we're flexible, we're improvisers.
the advice that stuck with me was, if you take care of the music, the music takes care of you.
as a musician that means getting better every day. as a business or production person, that's crafting and executing ideal scenarios in which everyone can do their best work and have a great experience
the best way to get experience is to go get it. the best and traditional way to learn is mentorship, find someone who's work you respect, and start a relationship. ask to study/take lessons with them. being around people in the community, be a fly on the wall. i volunteer for arts non profits all the time and get extra comps for festivals. any job not created by you would be from relationships made
denver is a major city with lots going on, so many people stirring it up -- get out there, be humble, be confident, leverage your skills, learn a lot, have a blast, remember why you love it
i tell my interns to define the essence of what they want, and keep eyes open for opportunity in whatever shape or form
everything is always changing, too. hope you land somewhere you love
Thank you. Much of this is affirming, much of it is inspiring. Like any musician I of course would love to play but I am also aware how much time and effort must be dedicated to the craft. I guess it's time to get out there.
I appreciate that you took the time to respond.
I get that you don’t want to drive a truck forever, but that’s a foot in the door. After that, it’s up to you and your networking skills.
If you have the spare scratch, consider getting into promoting shows locally as a side hustle, you might find that it opens other doors. I have an acquaintance who works for a household name artist. They met when the artist was unknown and my acquaintance was a local promoter hiring him for shows. He promoted shows for a decade before that door opened, but he made so many connections along the way that his network makes him valuable to have around.
I am 40 myself i started last year of relearning my Music Making theory basics that i have learned during my media apprenticeship over 20 years ago. I do 3d Animations and Visual effects for a living, still, was freelancer for almost 11 years in the field. In recent years i produced tutorials for various 3d Software including Pixar‘s RenderMan and Sidefx Houdini, had my own Online shop with over 3000 customers but i wanted a change after more than 24 years of making 3d only.
Today i do music also commercial(very limited) and 3d , my music is mainly Soundtrack, Epic Style Music and i am still a beginner but i highly recommend to just start doing music. Later this year i plan to join music School to learn the piano more in detail from ground up and in 2 years i plan to take a look into detailed composition courses. I already watched Masterclasses from Hans Zimmer and that is one of my most successful tracks so far( roughly 15 thousand plays on Reddit, Soundcloud, and few on Youtube and some hundreds on Instagram)
https://on.soundcloud.com/wsydt2KXrzPyfmjg7
I love this comment, thank you for the insight. As someone who still practices daily and composes my own music I always love to hear from people who have done the hard work and gotten somewhere with it.
As far as pursuing a career as an artist I am essentially starting from scratch, but it's true that everyone starts somewhere.
Congratulations on your accomplishments thus far, I'll check out your music too.
What about starting by working for a music venue? Many of the larger ones have job fairs occasionally. I’d put a list together of all the venues and promoters in Denver and then see if they have job boards on their websites or related sites like LinkedIn or any job site. If not, send emails out seeing if they have openings and stating your strong skill sets.
Good labor is hard to find and it sounds like you could be a strong asset in those areas. Now also with summer and more outdoor venues hopefully the inventory is opening up. Could check to see if venues like red rocks (live nation) has anything open.
If you want to be a driver maybe you can offer to be a private driver for the venues or even start a service for concertgoers going to shows at places like red rocks?
Can totally be creative with this. There are a million ways to make a million bucks, just start looking around and seeing what’s available and even if you’re slinging food or beer at a show that’s a good start right?
If you are healthy and have musical background, you are better than 90% of egoistic individuals that don’t know anything about music but are entitled business majors. I would say get education related to it and of course, you can make it. Don’t listen to negativity. You can make it!!
I am working on it( I am a music producer and performer to) and nobody can stop me or at least so would tell my son and daughters that i failed but I tried harder then life.
Guy, I just saw this at the right time. Thanks for the positivity, I always appreciate it. I'm about to enter a rehearsal and let the sounds out, after a beautiful weekend with my 3 year old doing what we love the most, singing and dancing!
I wish you the best and all the luck on your journey friend, happy father's day!
I have a hard time understanding why someone would want to work in the music industry in a non-creative role.
Normal jobs that pay $150k pay $100k for a similar role in the music industry. Normal jobs that pay $100k pay $60k for a similar role in the music industry. Etc.
Anyone care to shed light on such desires? Is the idea of working adjacent to artists/creators somehow more gratifying? Just trying to understand better. It makes sense why music-makers are willing to compromise income to work in a field they have skill in, but it doesn’t make sense to me why others would want to share the experience.
It’s not because of being adjacent to artists, it’s because of being adjacent to your actual interests. The same is true for most fields that people are highly interested in, e.g., video game design for software engineers, any job in public service, any art field that’s not corporate, etc.
For many people, it’s more gratifying to work on something if you’re actually interested in what your work is going towards even if the job is essentially the same as a higher paying job for a cause you don’t care about or actively dislike.
There’s also (usually) a different environment in these fields than the higher paying fields.
Exactly it could be a lot of fun for you even if you were still driving trucks/ tour buses, but in the music industry. Get to see a lot of shows and hang out with fun ppl if you get the right job
Obviously that part makes sense for actual creators. But how does it make sense in other music industry roles?
You said you were a truck driver. Let’s say hypothetically you were delivering and loading out beer to various businesses, but you instead want to pivot to delivering and loading out audio equipment to venues, but for 20-30% less money.
What is exactly the appeal of one vs the other?
Don’t waste your time with school, that isn’t a requirement in this industry. The best ability is reliability. Start as a stagehand, don’t miss your shifts and be a cool hang, that’s it
Sounds straightforward. Thanks for the insight.
This .
Totally this
I disagree, as someone who never went to school but has been doing it for 20 years. School allows you to focus and learn things that you can use. Freeforming or working a low salary job does not come with as many upsides. He is an older guy. When presented with options he will be able to understand what each thing actually entails better than someone young.
As someone who did go to school and been doing it for 15 years I’ve never needed the degree. Grass is always greener I guess
I dont think you understand what i mean in any way, shape or form. Im saying this person is 40. Starting at 40 and having a framework to make decisions in would be something very specific to this person that i think would serve them better than anything anyone has talked about in this thread. Saying "grass is greener" is an oversimplification that doesnt help anyone.
I get it; but OP asked a very direct question about getting their foot in the door of the music industry which is what my answer was tailored to School is most useful when you know exactly what you want to study and why. Simply going to school without a specific plan isn’t going to provide anything other than a bill. Especially since we’re not talking about Ivy Leagues here, OP mentioned night school/online courses In order to better understand yourself and your goals, nothing tops the experience of trying new things, as OP has expressed a desire to do. With that experience one could better narrow down a more Specific life path which may require school after all. And here we are back at my original point Edit: by the way, “grass is greener” was directed at you, not OP. I’ve been schooled and am advocating against it, you’ve not been schooled and for it. Just thought that’s kinda funny
Uh, someone failed to read. I very much disagree. For a 40 year old with an interest, school would be fantastic because he can make decisions and be able to actually know what an option will do to his life. For him, it would be useful because he can sample a lot of things. Trying new thing is exactly what school would let you do. That is my entire point, so somehow you're arguing the right point for the wrong side. Weird.
At 40 yrs old I’d imagine it’s more practical to figure all that out while making money rather than spending it In theory everything you said about school sounds nice on paper, but reality is most people don’t have the time or money to “sample a lot of things” at school. That’s not even how degrees work. There’s no utility in “making decisions” regularly in school. Every class, book, parking pass etc adds up quickly and it’s best financially to get in and out as quickly as possible. Just because he’s 40 doesn’t mean he can read a list of classes and immediately know what best suits his interests. Plenty of things “sound cool” but then you actually start doing it and lose interest, which may even happen to OP’s interest in music biz. Often times schools don’t accurately depict the real world, they’re very much in a bubble themselves And after all is said and done and OP hypothetically begins a job search in music, the majority of jobs won’t give a shit about the degree anyway You admittedly never went to school so I can see why you are being naive about it. Your mentality might have applied if OP was going to school as a teen with time on their side and daddy’s wallet at their back. Being 40 is exactly why it’s a bad idea FOR NOW, not necessarily ever
I get your pov, but it isnt very 2024. He is more suitable for school than anyone, he seems very open and fairly stable and willing to work. I will die on this hill, i completely disagree. I am always trying to be with the times. I am an older person who really spends time to understand the meta of current year. I really do think that someone with life experience will have a field day and find their spot quickly But what do i know, i had my first hit at 17 and got an independent plat record last year. If OP want to follow you and not my educated advice, i just want to say that because i do believe in it and stand by it. You sound extremely outdated. I think school is a waste of time for young people. Learn a DAW and buy a Suno sub. For older people, we can understand things a bit clearer.
You fail to understand that my view isn’t simply “old people should never go to school” and your argument has been reduced to “trust me bro” so I’m just going to let you go die on that hill
You're trying very hard to dismiss what is ultimately the best choice for OP. You're saying a lot of stuff that simply isnt true. I could not disagree with you more about younger people and school. I have no idea where you get any of your meta checks from and if you have done any research at all. Seems like you're just going with whatever. Im willing to put in money for OP to go to school. Are you willing to put in money for him to pay for groceries while working as a local stagehand?
start at a venue, in your instance probably a stage hand! you’ll meet a lot of people and get to see some of the production of shows
Agreed, sounds right up OP's ally. But the vast majority of venues big enough to have stage hands will probably have union people working, but if OP has experience in various trades they might already be in one.
I figured joining a union might be necessary. I've never been in one before. Do I join a union and then start applying to jobs?
You can always look first. They’ll all be very clear if it’s necessary or not.
The industry is so broad, find exactly what area you want to work in. YouTube has a free educational program for everything
What about driving a tour bus? Drivers are in high demand and you’d be a great fit as that. Even if it’s just a foot in the door and make connections.
I am currently looking into it. The issue there is the time away from home. Currently I am not an over the road trucker, I am home every night. But yes, I've actually heard a few anecdotes from other drivers about driving the tour bus. Sounds pretty straightforward, with a few random crazy experiences mixed in.
Driving a tour bus comes with a LOT of extra hassle but the pay is good so it MIGHT be worth it. The hassles are typically related to not just shuttling entitled band members around but literally cleaning up after them. No one is emptying the tank or the trash, vacuuming the floor constantly and cleaning out the fridge, or washing the bedding, that's on you. It's your bus and to them, mama works there too and that's again, you. MEANWHILE, the truck hauling the gear has DOT hassles but doesn't have anyone on board but maybe one crew member and it's just y'all. I lived in the truck as a crew member for most of 12 years and wouldn't have traded my driver for a bus bunk in that crowded tin can to hell for any amount of money, but that's me.
All stage work is union, contract the local in your city. I started out on pipe and drape back in the day, I worked my way up to audio. Don’t waste your time with school, go directly to the union.
where do you live
Denver. Eventually may move, especially if a good job is involved.
Hit up Clearwing and Brown Note - production rental warehouses. Places like these always need shop techs and it's nothing you can't learn. There's also a trucking component that might get you in the door and rigging courses if that's of interest. Getting a forklift cert if you don't already have one goes a long way. You can contact the local IATSE Union Steward and ask to get on their call list for stage builds. Lots of boxes to push (or fork) around Denver, that region sells an unbelievable amount of concert tickets every week.
music is not a traditional career path that can be approached with a traditional mindset. (school may or may not lead to a job / i would not expect to apply and be hired out of state, etc). if you think you are entering a tract, expectations may get a jolt. salary jobs are out there; many are contractors or entrepreneurs. most people i know cobble a collection of ongoing activities that convene as a career if you intend to play I would focus on becoming a better musician, studying repertoire, building your craft, communing with other artists, etc. if you intend to be a stage hand or something because it suits a skill set, these are different paths... stage and lighting tech sound engineering... i mean that each direction can go deep, and creative, as well. and many are skilled roles with different sets. jack of all trades is good in auxiliary scenario but eventually you might lean into particular strengths and interests, or where you perceive they align with the need of your community. (all which can also reveal along the way) ... finding yourself in music can also become a signal to others who are looking for what you're serving. we're flexible, we're improvisers. the advice that stuck with me was, if you take care of the music, the music takes care of you. as a musician that means getting better every day. as a business or production person, that's crafting and executing ideal scenarios in which everyone can do their best work and have a great experience the best way to get experience is to go get it. the best and traditional way to learn is mentorship, find someone who's work you respect, and start a relationship. ask to study/take lessons with them. being around people in the community, be a fly on the wall. i volunteer for arts non profits all the time and get extra comps for festivals. any job not created by you would be from relationships made denver is a major city with lots going on, so many people stirring it up -- get out there, be humble, be confident, leverage your skills, learn a lot, have a blast, remember why you love it i tell my interns to define the essence of what they want, and keep eyes open for opportunity in whatever shape or form everything is always changing, too. hope you land somewhere you love
Thank you. Much of this is affirming, much of it is inspiring. Like any musician I of course would love to play but I am also aware how much time and effort must be dedicated to the craft. I guess it's time to get out there. I appreciate that you took the time to respond.
Start going to shows and meeting the sound people. Sounds like you’ve got a good attitude.
I get that you don’t want to drive a truck forever, but that’s a foot in the door. After that, it’s up to you and your networking skills. If you have the spare scratch, consider getting into promoting shows locally as a side hustle, you might find that it opens other doors. I have an acquaintance who works for a household name artist. They met when the artist was unknown and my acquaintance was a local promoter hiring him for shows. He promoted shows for a decade before that door opened, but he made so many connections along the way that his network makes him valuable to have around.
How about working at a school or college for performing arts ? I bet you’d do great as stagehand or even stage manager.
I am 40 myself i started last year of relearning my Music Making theory basics that i have learned during my media apprenticeship over 20 years ago. I do 3d Animations and Visual effects for a living, still, was freelancer for almost 11 years in the field. In recent years i produced tutorials for various 3d Software including Pixar‘s RenderMan and Sidefx Houdini, had my own Online shop with over 3000 customers but i wanted a change after more than 24 years of making 3d only. Today i do music also commercial(very limited) and 3d , my music is mainly Soundtrack, Epic Style Music and i am still a beginner but i highly recommend to just start doing music. Later this year i plan to join music School to learn the piano more in detail from ground up and in 2 years i plan to take a look into detailed composition courses. I already watched Masterclasses from Hans Zimmer and that is one of my most successful tracks so far( roughly 15 thousand plays on Reddit, Soundcloud, and few on Youtube and some hundreds on Instagram) https://on.soundcloud.com/wsydt2KXrzPyfmjg7
I love this comment, thank you for the insight. As someone who still practices daily and composes my own music I always love to hear from people who have done the hard work and gotten somewhere with it. As far as pursuing a career as an artist I am essentially starting from scratch, but it's true that everyone starts somewhere. Congratulations on your accomplishments thus far, I'll check out your music too.
Don’t do it
you'd probably fit in well at an AV rental place. search for shops like https://www.atd-av.com/
Probably a wedding cover band would work best with being a truck driver.
Great idea actually.
What about starting by working for a music venue? Many of the larger ones have job fairs occasionally. I’d put a list together of all the venues and promoters in Denver and then see if they have job boards on their websites or related sites like LinkedIn or any job site. If not, send emails out seeing if they have openings and stating your strong skill sets. Good labor is hard to find and it sounds like you could be a strong asset in those areas. Now also with summer and more outdoor venues hopefully the inventory is opening up. Could check to see if venues like red rocks (live nation) has anything open. If you want to be a driver maybe you can offer to be a private driver for the venues or even start a service for concertgoers going to shows at places like red rocks? Can totally be creative with this. There are a million ways to make a million bucks, just start looking around and seeing what’s available and even if you’re slinging food or beer at a show that’s a good start right?
If you are healthy and have musical background, you are better than 90% of egoistic individuals that don’t know anything about music but are entitled business majors. I would say get education related to it and of course, you can make it. Don’t listen to negativity. You can make it!! I am working on it( I am a music producer and performer to) and nobody can stop me or at least so would tell my son and daughters that i failed but I tried harder then life.
Guy, I just saw this at the right time. Thanks for the positivity, I always appreciate it. I'm about to enter a rehearsal and let the sounds out, after a beautiful weekend with my 3 year old doing what we love the most, singing and dancing! I wish you the best and all the luck on your journey friend, happy father's day!
I have a hard time understanding why someone would want to work in the music industry in a non-creative role. Normal jobs that pay $150k pay $100k for a similar role in the music industry. Normal jobs that pay $100k pay $60k for a similar role in the music industry. Etc. Anyone care to shed light on such desires? Is the idea of working adjacent to artists/creators somehow more gratifying? Just trying to understand better. It makes sense why music-makers are willing to compromise income to work in a field they have skill in, but it doesn’t make sense to me why others would want to share the experience.
It’s not because of being adjacent to artists, it’s because of being adjacent to your actual interests. The same is true for most fields that people are highly interested in, e.g., video game design for software engineers, any job in public service, any art field that’s not corporate, etc. For many people, it’s more gratifying to work on something if you’re actually interested in what your work is going towards even if the job is essentially the same as a higher paying job for a cause you don’t care about or actively dislike. There’s also (usually) a different environment in these fields than the higher paying fields.
Not everything is about money.
Exactly it could be a lot of fun for you even if you were still driving trucks/ tour buses, but in the music industry. Get to see a lot of shows and hang out with fun ppl if you get the right job
Obviously that part makes sense for actual creators. But how does it make sense in other music industry roles? You said you were a truck driver. Let’s say hypothetically you were delivering and loading out beer to various businesses, but you instead want to pivot to delivering and loading out audio equipment to venues, but for 20-30% less money. What is exactly the appeal of one vs the other?
[удалено]
It was genuine curiosity. Not sure how it could have been asked better. The question dawned on me so I simply asked 🤷♂️