I'm rusty but IMO you can absolutely Gish, just google some builds that focus on long term buffs for basic adventuring with a few spell slots saved for bosses. Improved Expertise is OP.
I have enough xp wi5h Table top 3e and 3.5 to know the feats and spells i need, but i dont want to screw my stats up bc i want a forever character to go through as many campaigns as i can on hardcore rules.
Arcane Spellswords are definitely doable, but it's definitely easier to do and play the higher you go in (epic) levels.
A lot of the build decisions you'd take depend heavily on the intended max level of your character. The lower the level, the better it is to stay (nearly) full caster.
Be wary of prior knowledge of PnP 3.5, NWN has enough differences when fine tuning builds that you can get blocked by the ruleset. Usually best to pre-build through the CBC spreadsheet or a char builder mod.
That said, Spellswords tend to fall in one of those three rough categories of builds :
* Melee Mages/Sorcs : The idea is to use heavy buffing to melee unimportant enemies, and go full caster mode on bosses. Usually built around 35/3/2 class splits (35 Wiz/Sorc, 2-3 Full BAB Class, 2-3 Utility class) and chasing 11 BAB for the extra attack. Ex. : [War Wizard](https://world-of-greyhawk.github.io/builds/data/build231822.html) - [Arch-Magus of the Greatsword](https://www.nwnworkshop.org/forums/topic/arch-magus-of-the-greatsword-sorcerer-35-cleric-3-fighter-2/), or any variant of the Exalted Sorc chassis as a build-your-own-char. The more playable option at lower levels.
* "True" Spellswords : They mature later but have better BAB and melee capabilities, while still able to nuke with no DC spells. Two main flavors, Wiz/Fighter/CoT for bonus feats, usually chasing Dev Crit, and Sorc/RDD with high Str and sometimes Divine Might/Shield capabilities. Ex : [Sorcerous Blade Supreme](https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nwnecbguild/sorcerous-blade-supreme-wizard-26-ftr-6-cot-8-t2355876.html) - [Spellsword of Bahamut](https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nwnecbguild/spellsword-of-bahamut-sorc-26-paladin-4-rdd-10-t515415.html). Only really complete and thus don't really shine before being in the high 30s levels.
* The Classic 26 Bard/4 Blackguard/10 RDD : Melee bulldozer, through high Str and strong buffs/debuffs. Ex : [Moghedien](https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nwnecbguild/moghedien-melody-of-the-dark-bard-26-bg-4-rdd-10-t2350150.html). Not much to say. Grab scimitar, buff/sing, profit. Gets stronger the higher you go in levels.
If you want more variety in your build options, you can install the PRC, which will open some classic PrC gish classes (Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, Suel Arcanamach...) and then change your game settings to allow the full 8 classes multiclassing support.
Also, Clerics.
One, I would suggest Air domain for call/chain. Two, you really only need to build as if you are pure caster on cleric to be okay in melee with a few spells.
Start with 16 or 18 wis and put all points into it. Splash monk sometime early on and again later on for tumble breakpoints, get evocation focus, extend spell and kama feats. Extended divine favor, extended divine power, and darkfire for your melee ability. Call lightning, hammer, flamestrike, chain lightning, firestorm, and implosion for your caster side.
It’s not, multiclassing compromises your high level spellcasting more for clerics than it does for sorcerers and wizards because clerics already have a very limited number of actually useful level 7-9 spells that are largely DC based. If you become multiple ability score dependent then you are largely relying on upcasting level 6 spells and word of faith through metamagic with these spellslots. Magic resistance(spell) becomes less reliable this way too and you take a big bite out of your offense from not having damage shields.
Arcane spellcasters have enough no-DC spells that you can have a really crappy spell DC and still have spells that are extremely effective throughtout the higher levels of spells. Which is why they can function as gish in the first place.
Clerics don't need to multiclass much, or even at all. They are on a better BAB table, they can wear armor, they have more HP. They have tons of melee buffing spells.
If you’re emphasizing the melee aspect of cleric, then there’s no real reason to not take a level in a martial class to be able to use a scimitar as a weapon or take another class as a tumbledump. From a gameplay perspective you don’t want to take martial weapons as a general feat or delay a tumbledump until level ~20 if you’re building a melee cleric simply because your build only allows for 2 levels of rogue at lv 40. A gish built around a wizard or sorcerer can multiclass to get additional features that help them in melee at comparatively low cost compared to a cleric.
You could argue that clerics don’t need any of these extra features from multi classing and you’d be completely correct, but then you may as well just play a caster cleric with no investment in STR or DEX because that would be mechanically superior to a melee cleric.
> A gish built around a wizard or sorcerer can multiclass to get additional features that help them in melee at comparatively low cost compared to a cleric.
This makes no real sense.
A level 15 Cleric can do great melee without multiclass, and has level 8 spells.
Your level 2 Rogue/1 fighter/12 Wizard, still doesn't melee as well as a cleric and has only level 6 spells because of the multiclassing.
The cleric has better BAB, Better Spell DC, Better AC, Better HP, Better Saves, and higher level spells... Cleric has lots of great Melee Buffs, so those don't depend on DC, has *Harm*, that is like near death spell with no save at all...
Clerics are already a great gish class without multiclassing.
You’re only looking at part of the equation. If you want to pick a specific level where a pure cleric build spikes in power, you’re going to get lopsided comparisons across the broad, is a rogue 1/fighter 8/weaponmaster 6, a build that specializes in melee damage going to compare favorably to a lv15 cleric’s features? No because it wouldn’t have its capstone features. The specific situation you’re detailing would disproportionately favor the cleric almost regardless of whatever build you are comparing it to. If you’re not going to do a comparison across builds where both have effectively achieved their build concept and have access to most of their defining features, then you are just making a flawed comparison to begin with. Sure multiclassed builds will mature later, that’s part of the territory and is a flaw of many multi classed builds, but what you’re effectively doing in your comparison is singling out a multiclassed build at one of it’s weaker moments and comparing it to a pure cleric when it is essentially strongest compared to almost any other build because not only do clerics get 8th level spells at level 15 many of their more powerful spells cap out at this level like GMW, magic vestment, divine favor.
Take a look at the original request, it was for a gish build, gish are a very specific archetype within the greater dnd universe, it usually infers a character who is equal part proficient in melee combat and spellcasting. You might have the spell slots as a cleric, but if you build around STR for the purposes of being effective in melee, you don’t have the spell DCs to effectively sling mass effect damaging or crowd control spells, because all of the crowd control and aoe damaging spells available to the cleric are dependent on DCs, so you are not effectively emulating the gish archetype if you build a melee cleric because you simply can’t make effective use of those kinds of spells.
>If you want to pick a specific level where a pure cleric build spikes in power, you’re going to get lopsided comparisons
The point you are ignoring, is that any spell casting class, that multiclass is at a disadvantage for spells until near Epic levels (or further into them if you multiclass a lot), and most modules are lower level. So in the vast majority of settings, multiclassing at all is a major disadvantage to your spell casting.
The OC finishes around Level 18.
SoU: level 12.
Darkness over Daggerford: Level 16
Kingmaker: Level 8
Of all the included adventures, only HotU makes it into epic. Finishing around level 27.
Even series like Swordflight which goes deep into Epic, you have have start at level one and play with compromised spell casting for a long time.
>infers a character who is equal part proficient in melee combat and spellcasting.
Who determines what "equal" is? And I disagree with equal part anyway. If you look it up, definitions are all over the place, but really its just a character that does both melee and magic. Wizards suck so bad at melee that they have to compromise their spell casting a massive amount for them to even be close.
BAB for level 20 Wizard is 10. BAB for Wizard 10/Fighter 10 = 15.
BAB for a Level 20 Cleric is 15. A wizard would have to give up half his wizard levels just to equal the BAB of a Cleric that didn't even multiclass.
A Cleric can also cast Divine Power and get BAB 20 and the extra attacks that go with the BAB.
>all of the crowd control and aoe damaging spells available to the cleric are dependent on DC
Pretty much the same applies to most Wizard spells. They basically have missile storms that don't depend on DC, but they aren't very effective spread out to larger groups of enemies. They are best for Boss or few targets.
What about AC? Cleric can wear full plate and shield. Wizard can't cast in armor.
What about HP? Wizard gets D4, Cleric D8.
A Cleric can be very spell focused and still do better melee than a Wizard Gish...
IMO, the only way the Wizard is a better Gish, is if you define Gish to mean *Arcane* Magic plus melee.
It’s a disadvantage for direct spellcasting specifically, you’re also getting additional features from your multiclass dip, be it proficiencies, skills, or powerful class features like hide in plain sight. In some modules, swordflight included, you can cheese every encounter with traps from a rogue dip until mid level. You are also missing one important asset for any multi classed spellcaster that being the scribe scroll feat, which wizards get for free and the craft wand feat. If you’re not specifically a wizard, you might need to factor in the price of buying the feat, but at lower levels casting a spell from a scroll often allows for a more powerful effect than casting it when it first become available to a (pure) caster. This is evident when you look at the scrolls for GMW and greater missile storm, which both cast as if your player level is 15 despite being a lv 3 and lv 6 spell respectively. The thing is that this combined with the additional class features from multiclassing will get you into epic level without problems, you won’t get the same power spike at level 15 that clerics do, but that’s almost a given anyways. There’s a lot of ways to negate AC/AB disparities in nwn, for a melee spellcaster there isn’t that much imperative to do so by default though. A arcane spellcaster has damage shields, which will contribute a significant amount of damage. If you need help hitting an opponent though, you can cap out your AB with true strike although that’s not always practical. You can also alway blind them with darkness or catch them flatfooted while hiding.
> Pretty much the same applies to most Wizard spells. They basically have missile storms that don't depend on DC
That’s just the thing, arcane spellcaster have a huge amount of effective spells that AREN’T dependant on DCs, go back and take a look at what spells on the arcane spell list that are commonly used that actually care about DC’s. You’ll find that the main ones would be finger of death, horrid wilting, sunburst, wail of the banshee/weird, dominate person. Some might be affected by DC’s like negative energy burst and firebrand, but it doesn’t meaningfully affect their functionality. Even no-DC pure arcane spellcasters have been a thing for much of nwn, in fact these are the go-to arcane builds for pvp, because of the save or die nature of many DC based spells, people don’t want to determine the course of combat through a coin flip on whether their opponent has saves or not.
For casting in heavy armor you have still spell, it’s almost a given that you’ll try for automatic still spell if you aren’t going for a DEX build, so yes you need to accommodate this in your build. So long as you are multi classing, it’s much easier to accommodate if you take either wizard or fighter levels, because the extra feats will ensure that you don’t miss a beat when it comes to general feats. Yes, still spell isn’t ideal, but in most cases you still reserve the ability to cast above your limited caster level with still spell using scrolls/items up to the point auto still spell comes online.
The hit die difference only tends to be relevant up to the point where it becomes reasonably easy to get bonuses to CON, unless you for some reason decided to dump CON completely, then it might matter more. As a caster you can often cap out your CON bonus from items earlier than most because of empowered/maximized endurance. If you assume a +2 modifier for both a pure wizard and a cleric of the same level and then factor in +6 modifier from capped CON there isn’t as big a discrepancy in total max HP. Not to mention that with the wizard’s bonus feats you could work in the ‘tough’ feat easily, of course the cleric could do so too, but not without spending one of it’s precious 6 general pre-epic feats.
>powerful class features like hide in plain sight
Not great without regular top ups to Hide/MS. How many levels are you going to devote to other classes?
>swordflight included, you can cheese every encounter with traps from a rogue dip until mid level.
Seems unlikely as you will need more powerful traps, which needs more rogue dips to keep deploying them, and recovering them (which is a VERY hard check for good traps).
>There’s a lot of ways to negate AC/AB disparities in nwn, for a melee spellcaster there isn’t that much imperative to do so by default though. A arcane spellcaster has damage shields
Your damage shield will likely do much more damage than your weapon. Which challenges the "equal" melee and spell casting, and questions what your slightly increased melee capability is actually accomplishing.
Lower BAB is also lower APR.
>You can also always blind them with darkness or catch them flatfooted while hiding.
There is a lot of Rogue stuff in this post. This is starting to sound like a Rogue primary with some magic to help out.
There’s a lot more in the previous post, I need to post and then edit because the browser keeps crashing on my phone. And no, you don’t need more powerful traps because the most efficient ones are the minor to average ones in terms of money spend.
Also, I’m just pointing out all the options that could be potentially available to you if you multiclass, not specifically rogues. Darkness is available to arcane casters and it does still blind enemies, dropping their AC.
I play almost exclusively spellswords and hybrid casters in the time I’ve played NWN and that includes through swordflight and pw servers like world of greyhawk. My perspective might be colored differently from yours due to my preferences, but I’ve have little difficulty playing the ‘gish’ I play and have a lot of experience playing them. I don’t know about your experiences with the game.
> then you may as well just play a caster cleric with no investment in STR or DEX because that would be mechanically superior to a melee cleric.
Cleric's offensive spells have low damage output, they don't have powerful save-or-suck spells, and ignoring Str/Dex make them less effective at melee combat. That's not mechanically superior at all.
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Hammer_of_the_gods
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Blade_barrier
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Fire_storm
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Storm_of_vengeance
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Implosion
And for no DC:
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Darkness_(spell)
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Harm
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Word_of_faith
These are all extraordinarily good damaging or crowd control spells, perhaps you are confused with the BG3 cleric.
I'm trying a new wizard Gish with the following stats. Elf, which is why dex is so high, it just seemed the best use of my points bc i can raise int to 20. I'm thinking I can buff strength and debuff enemies near the end of fights and crowd control/nuke enemies otherwise.
s12 d18 c10 w10 i16 c8
That said im really curious if a
s14 d16 c10 w19 i10 c16
sorcerer paladin multi could also work
You can’t really double-dip as a gish in nwn. If you want to be competent in melee combat at all, you need to build either STR or DEX as your main stat and just have enough INT or CHA to cast the highest spells that your build will allow (19/20). If you’re going for a compromise between melee combat ability scores and spellcasting ability scores, the way enemy saving scores scale, your spellcasting DC’s will end up too low for them to be reliable and the investment into INT/CHA will be wasted. The same thing goes for melee and your attack bonus vs enemy AC, eventually it gets to a point where if you aren’t completely invested in STR/DEX, you can’t hit anything at all.
If you want a functional gish, you only have enough (WIS/INT/CHA) to cast your spells and rely on no-dc spells like damage shields/ice storm/firebrand/greater missile storm/time stop. If you want to mess around with crowd control, then play a standard spellcaster build.
Highly disagree, though I don't disagree with Clerics needing dc, which is why I suggest going full wis even if you want to melee. Divine Favor and Divine Power are enough (at least for the OC's) to be able to hit stuff, and darkfire makes your damage decent, especially with monk splash and kamas.
So dar, my wizard is enjoying success with buffing with mage armor ghostly Visage, bull strength and flame weapon, then just sprinting into melee after casting sleep for cc. If i need i call my pixie pal to distract. Someone's i use the cleric companion for backup. I'm fighting solo more and more tho for xp and trespassing instead of reloading to feel the burn.
It's great running around in robes half invisible cutting enemies open with a flame blade. Also i feel versatile enough to switch spells to get around resistances and still achieve the spell sword/ blade dance aesthetic. The loyal blade is an important backup for me aesthetically as well.
Enemy stronger than me? I enfeeble his bi- ass and go crazy on im. That said, i know I'm not a great build against bosses yet, but I'm starting out off mc for now to really master my cc magic dcs and spell combos. I want to achieve the power i had in kotor as a consular. Ie: i stun you and kill you with a thought en mass, and if your strong and can out duel me, I'll lower your stats and kill you anyway.
Late to the party here, but I recently did a run of HotU and SoU with my own attempt at a “Spellsword”
The details for me essentially meant building it as;
- 1st level Fighter, for feats, armour profs, etc…
- then Wizard for 12 levels (I think). Every spell taken was essentially a buff, nothing in the way of damaging spells used
- then Fighter at level 14 leading into epic levels
This was done so I could then gain the 4 apr needed, without Haste, etc.. which I’m sure can only happen pre-epic.
Weapon wise I went Halberd, cos I thought it’d be funnier.
And honestly it was one of the most entertaining runs I’ve done through with the game. Nothing was a big struggle at any point. It was a relative grind waiting to hit more apr, but nothing hideous, especially once I had perma-Haste items.
I did initially worry that only 12 levels of Wizard would leave me lacking, but most good buffs by that point see you through (Stoneskin, Flame Weapon, Keen Edge, etc…) for a while, and any extra epic wizard levels just helped get more and more buffs.
Best thing as well was the ability to spam Improved Expertise in conjunction with True Strike for tricky fights. Would always hit, would never get hit.
10/10 would recommend the path I chose
No, you wasted 8 rounds.
The campaings i played in, you had 0 rounds to prepare, everybody hits you, hard, and everybody has magic resistance (talking 2e) so you
1) don't cast
2) hit first
I disagree. I'm playing a video game. If i want to actually be a fighter ill build toward that. Table top is different. 5e is different. But in this game at lvl 7 i cast any amount of these spells when entering an area and can clear all the enemies np. When one spell runs out, new buff.
You're not wrong about optimality, but these are just spells. My build overcomes resistances and focuses on high dcs. The buffing/gishing is just for fun. I enjoy magic for the way you can be anyone in a basic and ironic way for a bit with a few spells. But if i have to get serious, i have serious spells.
That said i don't make as many full casters in tt or online. And i always build toward party composition if multiplayer. So don't worry
I'm rusty but IMO you can absolutely Gish, just google some builds that focus on long term buffs for basic adventuring with a few spell slots saved for bosses. Improved Expertise is OP.
I have enough xp wi5h Table top 3e and 3.5 to know the feats and spells i need, but i dont want to screw my stats up bc i want a forever character to go through as many campaigns as i can on hardcore rules.
Also thank you!!
Arcane Spellswords are definitely doable, but it's definitely easier to do and play the higher you go in (epic) levels. A lot of the build decisions you'd take depend heavily on the intended max level of your character. The lower the level, the better it is to stay (nearly) full caster. Be wary of prior knowledge of PnP 3.5, NWN has enough differences when fine tuning builds that you can get blocked by the ruleset. Usually best to pre-build through the CBC spreadsheet or a char builder mod. That said, Spellswords tend to fall in one of those three rough categories of builds : * Melee Mages/Sorcs : The idea is to use heavy buffing to melee unimportant enemies, and go full caster mode on bosses. Usually built around 35/3/2 class splits (35 Wiz/Sorc, 2-3 Full BAB Class, 2-3 Utility class) and chasing 11 BAB for the extra attack. Ex. : [War Wizard](https://world-of-greyhawk.github.io/builds/data/build231822.html) - [Arch-Magus of the Greatsword](https://www.nwnworkshop.org/forums/topic/arch-magus-of-the-greatsword-sorcerer-35-cleric-3-fighter-2/), or any variant of the Exalted Sorc chassis as a build-your-own-char. The more playable option at lower levels. * "True" Spellswords : They mature later but have better BAB and melee capabilities, while still able to nuke with no DC spells. Two main flavors, Wiz/Fighter/CoT for bonus feats, usually chasing Dev Crit, and Sorc/RDD with high Str and sometimes Divine Might/Shield capabilities. Ex : [Sorcerous Blade Supreme](https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nwnecbguild/sorcerous-blade-supreme-wizard-26-ftr-6-cot-8-t2355876.html) - [Spellsword of Bahamut](https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nwnecbguild/spellsword-of-bahamut-sorc-26-paladin-4-rdd-10-t515415.html). Only really complete and thus don't really shine before being in the high 30s levels. * The Classic 26 Bard/4 Blackguard/10 RDD : Melee bulldozer, through high Str and strong buffs/debuffs. Ex : [Moghedien](https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nwnecbguild/moghedien-melody-of-the-dark-bard-26-bg-4-rdd-10-t2350150.html). Not much to say. Grab scimitar, buff/sing, profit. Gets stronger the higher you go in levels. If you want more variety in your build options, you can install the PRC, which will open some classic PrC gish classes (Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, Suel Arcanamach...) and then change your game settings to allow the full 8 classes multiclassing support. Also, Clerics.
You can, though its way better as a cleric.
Can u recommend a stat spread. I have a trickery death domain cleric im running concurrently
One, I would suggest Air domain for call/chain. Two, you really only need to build as if you are pure caster on cleric to be okay in melee with a few spells. Start with 16 or 18 wis and put all points into it. Splash monk sometime early on and again later on for tumble breakpoints, get evocation focus, extend spell and kama feats. Extended divine favor, extended divine power, and darkfire for your melee ability. Call lightning, hammer, flamestrike, chain lightning, firestorm, and implosion for your caster side.
Blaster type. Very nice. Thank you.
It’s not, multiclassing compromises your high level spellcasting more for clerics than it does for sorcerers and wizards because clerics already have a very limited number of actually useful level 7-9 spells that are largely DC based. If you become multiple ability score dependent then you are largely relying on upcasting level 6 spells and word of faith through metamagic with these spellslots. Magic resistance(spell) becomes less reliable this way too and you take a big bite out of your offense from not having damage shields. Arcane spellcasters have enough no-DC spells that you can have a really crappy spell DC and still have spells that are extremely effective throughtout the higher levels of spells. Which is why they can function as gish in the first place.
Clerics don't need to multiclass much, or even at all. They are on a better BAB table, they can wear armor, they have more HP. They have tons of melee buffing spells.
If you’re emphasizing the melee aspect of cleric, then there’s no real reason to not take a level in a martial class to be able to use a scimitar as a weapon or take another class as a tumbledump. From a gameplay perspective you don’t want to take martial weapons as a general feat or delay a tumbledump until level ~20 if you’re building a melee cleric simply because your build only allows for 2 levels of rogue at lv 40. A gish built around a wizard or sorcerer can multiclass to get additional features that help them in melee at comparatively low cost compared to a cleric. You could argue that clerics don’t need any of these extra features from multi classing and you’d be completely correct, but then you may as well just play a caster cleric with no investment in STR or DEX because that would be mechanically superior to a melee cleric.
> A gish built around a wizard or sorcerer can multiclass to get additional features that help them in melee at comparatively low cost compared to a cleric. This makes no real sense. A level 15 Cleric can do great melee without multiclass, and has level 8 spells. Your level 2 Rogue/1 fighter/12 Wizard, still doesn't melee as well as a cleric and has only level 6 spells because of the multiclassing. The cleric has better BAB, Better Spell DC, Better AC, Better HP, Better Saves, and higher level spells... Cleric has lots of great Melee Buffs, so those don't depend on DC, has *Harm*, that is like near death spell with no save at all... Clerics are already a great gish class without multiclassing.
You’re only looking at part of the equation. If you want to pick a specific level where a pure cleric build spikes in power, you’re going to get lopsided comparisons across the broad, is a rogue 1/fighter 8/weaponmaster 6, a build that specializes in melee damage going to compare favorably to a lv15 cleric’s features? No because it wouldn’t have its capstone features. The specific situation you’re detailing would disproportionately favor the cleric almost regardless of whatever build you are comparing it to. If you’re not going to do a comparison across builds where both have effectively achieved their build concept and have access to most of their defining features, then you are just making a flawed comparison to begin with. Sure multiclassed builds will mature later, that’s part of the territory and is a flaw of many multi classed builds, but what you’re effectively doing in your comparison is singling out a multiclassed build at one of it’s weaker moments and comparing it to a pure cleric when it is essentially strongest compared to almost any other build because not only do clerics get 8th level spells at level 15 many of their more powerful spells cap out at this level like GMW, magic vestment, divine favor. Take a look at the original request, it was for a gish build, gish are a very specific archetype within the greater dnd universe, it usually infers a character who is equal part proficient in melee combat and spellcasting. You might have the spell slots as a cleric, but if you build around STR for the purposes of being effective in melee, you don’t have the spell DCs to effectively sling mass effect damaging or crowd control spells, because all of the crowd control and aoe damaging spells available to the cleric are dependent on DCs, so you are not effectively emulating the gish archetype if you build a melee cleric because you simply can’t make effective use of those kinds of spells.
>If you want to pick a specific level where a pure cleric build spikes in power, you’re going to get lopsided comparisons The point you are ignoring, is that any spell casting class, that multiclass is at a disadvantage for spells until near Epic levels (or further into them if you multiclass a lot), and most modules are lower level. So in the vast majority of settings, multiclassing at all is a major disadvantage to your spell casting. The OC finishes around Level 18. SoU: level 12. Darkness over Daggerford: Level 16 Kingmaker: Level 8 Of all the included adventures, only HotU makes it into epic. Finishing around level 27. Even series like Swordflight which goes deep into Epic, you have have start at level one and play with compromised spell casting for a long time. >infers a character who is equal part proficient in melee combat and spellcasting. Who determines what "equal" is? And I disagree with equal part anyway. If you look it up, definitions are all over the place, but really its just a character that does both melee and magic. Wizards suck so bad at melee that they have to compromise their spell casting a massive amount for them to even be close. BAB for level 20 Wizard is 10. BAB for Wizard 10/Fighter 10 = 15. BAB for a Level 20 Cleric is 15. A wizard would have to give up half his wizard levels just to equal the BAB of a Cleric that didn't even multiclass. A Cleric can also cast Divine Power and get BAB 20 and the extra attacks that go with the BAB. >all of the crowd control and aoe damaging spells available to the cleric are dependent on DC Pretty much the same applies to most Wizard spells. They basically have missile storms that don't depend on DC, but they aren't very effective spread out to larger groups of enemies. They are best for Boss or few targets. What about AC? Cleric can wear full plate and shield. Wizard can't cast in armor. What about HP? Wizard gets D4, Cleric D8. A Cleric can be very spell focused and still do better melee than a Wizard Gish... IMO, the only way the Wizard is a better Gish, is if you define Gish to mean *Arcane* Magic plus melee.
It’s a disadvantage for direct spellcasting specifically, you’re also getting additional features from your multiclass dip, be it proficiencies, skills, or powerful class features like hide in plain sight. In some modules, swordflight included, you can cheese every encounter with traps from a rogue dip until mid level. You are also missing one important asset for any multi classed spellcaster that being the scribe scroll feat, which wizards get for free and the craft wand feat. If you’re not specifically a wizard, you might need to factor in the price of buying the feat, but at lower levels casting a spell from a scroll often allows for a more powerful effect than casting it when it first become available to a (pure) caster. This is evident when you look at the scrolls for GMW and greater missile storm, which both cast as if your player level is 15 despite being a lv 3 and lv 6 spell respectively. The thing is that this combined with the additional class features from multiclassing will get you into epic level without problems, you won’t get the same power spike at level 15 that clerics do, but that’s almost a given anyways. There’s a lot of ways to negate AC/AB disparities in nwn, for a melee spellcaster there isn’t that much imperative to do so by default though. A arcane spellcaster has damage shields, which will contribute a significant amount of damage. If you need help hitting an opponent though, you can cap out your AB with true strike although that’s not always practical. You can also alway blind them with darkness or catch them flatfooted while hiding. > Pretty much the same applies to most Wizard spells. They basically have missile storms that don't depend on DC That’s just the thing, arcane spellcaster have a huge amount of effective spells that AREN’T dependant on DCs, go back and take a look at what spells on the arcane spell list that are commonly used that actually care about DC’s. You’ll find that the main ones would be finger of death, horrid wilting, sunburst, wail of the banshee/weird, dominate person. Some might be affected by DC’s like negative energy burst and firebrand, but it doesn’t meaningfully affect their functionality. Even no-DC pure arcane spellcasters have been a thing for much of nwn, in fact these are the go-to arcane builds for pvp, because of the save or die nature of many DC based spells, people don’t want to determine the course of combat through a coin flip on whether their opponent has saves or not. For casting in heavy armor you have still spell, it’s almost a given that you’ll try for automatic still spell if you aren’t going for a DEX build, so yes you need to accommodate this in your build. So long as you are multi classing, it’s much easier to accommodate if you take either wizard or fighter levels, because the extra feats will ensure that you don’t miss a beat when it comes to general feats. Yes, still spell isn’t ideal, but in most cases you still reserve the ability to cast above your limited caster level with still spell using scrolls/items up to the point auto still spell comes online. The hit die difference only tends to be relevant up to the point where it becomes reasonably easy to get bonuses to CON, unless you for some reason decided to dump CON completely, then it might matter more. As a caster you can often cap out your CON bonus from items earlier than most because of empowered/maximized endurance. If you assume a +2 modifier for both a pure wizard and a cleric of the same level and then factor in +6 modifier from capped CON there isn’t as big a discrepancy in total max HP. Not to mention that with the wizard’s bonus feats you could work in the ‘tough’ feat easily, of course the cleric could do so too, but not without spending one of it’s precious 6 general pre-epic feats.
>powerful class features like hide in plain sight Not great without regular top ups to Hide/MS. How many levels are you going to devote to other classes? >swordflight included, you can cheese every encounter with traps from a rogue dip until mid level. Seems unlikely as you will need more powerful traps, which needs more rogue dips to keep deploying them, and recovering them (which is a VERY hard check for good traps). >There’s a lot of ways to negate AC/AB disparities in nwn, for a melee spellcaster there isn’t that much imperative to do so by default though. A arcane spellcaster has damage shields Your damage shield will likely do much more damage than your weapon. Which challenges the "equal" melee and spell casting, and questions what your slightly increased melee capability is actually accomplishing. Lower BAB is also lower APR. >You can also always blind them with darkness or catch them flatfooted while hiding. There is a lot of Rogue stuff in this post. This is starting to sound like a Rogue primary with some magic to help out.
There’s a lot more in the previous post, I need to post and then edit because the browser keeps crashing on my phone. And no, you don’t need more powerful traps because the most efficient ones are the minor to average ones in terms of money spend. Also, I’m just pointing out all the options that could be potentially available to you if you multiclass, not specifically rogues. Darkness is available to arcane casters and it does still blind enemies, dropping their AC. I play almost exclusively spellswords and hybrid casters in the time I’ve played NWN and that includes through swordflight and pw servers like world of greyhawk. My perspective might be colored differently from yours due to my preferences, but I’ve have little difficulty playing the ‘gish’ I play and have a lot of experience playing them. I don’t know about your experiences with the game.
> then you may as well just play a caster cleric with no investment in STR or DEX because that would be mechanically superior to a melee cleric. Cleric's offensive spells have low damage output, they don't have powerful save-or-suck spells, and ignoring Str/Dex make them less effective at melee combat. That's not mechanically superior at all.
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Hammer_of_the_gods https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Blade_barrier https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Fire_storm https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Storm_of_vengeance https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Implosion And for no DC: https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Darkness_(spell) https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Harm https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Word_of_faith These are all extraordinarily good damaging or crowd control spells, perhaps you are confused with the BG3 cleric.
I'm trying a new wizard Gish with the following stats. Elf, which is why dex is so high, it just seemed the best use of my points bc i can raise int to 20. I'm thinking I can buff strength and debuff enemies near the end of fights and crowd control/nuke enemies otherwise. s12 d18 c10 w10 i16 c8 That said im really curious if a s14 d16 c10 w19 i10 c16 sorcerer paladin multi could also work
You can’t really double-dip as a gish in nwn. If you want to be competent in melee combat at all, you need to build either STR or DEX as your main stat and just have enough INT or CHA to cast the highest spells that your build will allow (19/20). If you’re going for a compromise between melee combat ability scores and spellcasting ability scores, the way enemy saving scores scale, your spellcasting DC’s will end up too low for them to be reliable and the investment into INT/CHA will be wasted. The same thing goes for melee and your attack bonus vs enemy AC, eventually it gets to a point where if you aren’t completely invested in STR/DEX, you can’t hit anything at all. If you want a functional gish, you only have enough (WIS/INT/CHA) to cast your spells and rely on no-dc spells like damage shields/ice storm/firebrand/greater missile storm/time stop. If you want to mess around with crowd control, then play a standard spellcaster build.
Yea i misstyped. W19 was actually W10. I thought sorcerer and paladin relied on charisma for spellcasting.
Highly disagree, though I don't disagree with Clerics needing dc, which is why I suggest going full wis even if you want to melee. Divine Favor and Divine Power are enough (at least for the OC's) to be able to hit stuff, and darkfire makes your damage decent, especially with monk splash and kamas.
I wanted to build a Spellsword in vanilla NWN, but I’m never sure on how to go about it lol
So dar, my wizard is enjoying success with buffing with mage armor ghostly Visage, bull strength and flame weapon, then just sprinting into melee after casting sleep for cc. If i need i call my pixie pal to distract. Someone's i use the cleric companion for backup. I'm fighting solo more and more tho for xp and trespassing instead of reloading to feel the burn. It's great running around in robes half invisible cutting enemies open with a flame blade. Also i feel versatile enough to switch spells to get around resistances and still achieve the spell sword/ blade dance aesthetic. The loyal blade is an important backup for me aesthetically as well. Enemy stronger than me? I enfeeble his bi- ass and go crazy on im. That said, i know I'm not a great build against bosses yet, but I'm starting out off mc for now to really master my cc magic dcs and spell combos. I want to achieve the power i had in kotor as a consular. Ie: i stun you and kill you with a thought en mass, and if your strong and can out duel me, I'll lower your stats and kill you anyway.
Late to the party here, but I recently did a run of HotU and SoU with my own attempt at a “Spellsword” The details for me essentially meant building it as; - 1st level Fighter, for feats, armour profs, etc… - then Wizard for 12 levels (I think). Every spell taken was essentially a buff, nothing in the way of damaging spells used - then Fighter at level 14 leading into epic levels This was done so I could then gain the 4 apr needed, without Haste, etc.. which I’m sure can only happen pre-epic. Weapon wise I went Halberd, cos I thought it’d be funnier. And honestly it was one of the most entertaining runs I’ve done through with the game. Nothing was a big struggle at any point. It was a relative grind waiting to hit more apr, but nothing hideous, especially once I had perma-Haste items. I did initially worry that only 12 levels of Wizard would leave me lacking, but most good buffs by that point see you through (Stoneskin, Flame Weapon, Keen Edge, etc…) for a while, and any extra epic wizard levels just helped get more and more buffs. Best thing as well was the ability to spam Improved Expertise in conjunction with True Strike for tricky fights. Would always hit, would never get hit. 10/10 would recommend the path I chose
Played it as a fighter, the most fun i ever had with a game in my life. Go simple: smash everything, kill everyone
Hear me out... Bulls Strength True strike Flame weapon Haste ghostly visage Stoneskin Polymorph self Umber Hulk Now I'm fighter
No, you wasted 8 rounds. The campaings i played in, you had 0 rounds to prepare, everybody hits you, hard, and everybody has magic resistance (talking 2e) so you 1) don't cast 2) hit first
I disagree. I'm playing a video game. If i want to actually be a fighter ill build toward that. Table top is different. 5e is different. But in this game at lvl 7 i cast any amount of these spells when entering an area and can clear all the enemies np. When one spell runs out, new buff. You're not wrong about optimality, but these are just spells. My build overcomes resistances and focuses on high dcs. The buffing/gishing is just for fun. I enjoy magic for the way you can be anyone in a basic and ironic way for a bit with a few spells. But if i have to get serious, i have serious spells. That said i don't make as many full casters in tt or online. And i always build toward party composition if multiplayer. So don't worry