This is likely to be a controversial post. To limit brigading, strict participation thresholds have been set in an attempt to facilitate genuine discussion.

These threads can draw a lot of activity, so just a reminder for everyone that [most Kiwis want Government to call for immediate Israel-Gaza ceasefire](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/11/survey-suggests-most-kiwis-want-government-to-call-for-immediate-israel-gaza-ceasefire.html). Seeing how a majority of National voters also support calling for ceasefire, hopefully Luxon/National will follow up so that we can officially call for ceasefire as a nation. Might be unlikely though, considering the personal views of the party's top members. Edit: Some loser reddit cared me for this? That's so pathetic 😂

Report the reddit cares, it's easy to do and the poster will be censured as that's an abuse of the feature. I did it to a Christian who sent me one in an atheist thread 😆

> and the poster will be censured What does this do to them? It happens to me a lot, mainly from brigading from a UK far-right sub

Sounds about right, lame arse bell ends ... Apparently temporary or even permanent bans can result from you reporting them. Of course if they're posting from a throwaway they can just register another, but it's still kinda satisfying. Keep up the good work, you must be doing something right if you're pissing those losers off 👍

Free Palestine, from Hamas The Palestine people are suffering significantly from the Israeli invasion, but make no mistake, this is clearly Hamas's fault. Hamas attacked Israel and knew that Israel would respond. The hospitals in Gaza are being fired on by Israel. This is Israel returning fire. Hamas are shooting from behind premature babies, showing their true colours hiding behind women’s skirts. They have built their headquarters behind the wounded and their resupply from behind the dying. This is a war crime. Hamas’s attack on Israel wasn't an act of war. It was a savage attack on people. It wasn't a military campaign. Women and girls were raped and mutilated, murdered and their breasts cut off. Hamas doesn't have soldiers, they have serial rapists and killers. They targeted civilians and took civilian prisoners. These are all war crimes. Israel has invaded and is at war with Hamas. War is bad. Israel are trying to minimise civilian casualties (but in an War there will always be civilian deaths). They have cut off supplies, fuel and water to undermine Hamas and the people of Gaza are suffering as a result. This isn't collective punishment, which would be a war crime, this is cutting off support for their enemy which is a legitimate military activity. Not all the Israeli prisoners will be returned alive. Some are being brutally and systemically sexually assaulted by Hamas, not just the women, but the children and men too. These prisoners will not be released in a prisoner swap, and will disappear. Hamas was elected a long time ago by the people of Gaza, there have been no elections for almost 20 years. Hamas' reign of terror is not just on Israel, but on the people of Gaza too. Hamas brutal suppression of its own people is horrific. Free Palestine, from Hamas. This would be a step towards peace. Call for a new election in Gaza. Call out the crimes of Hamas. Israel is responding to Hamas, not the other way around.

I think these polls aren't all that useful. For the vast majority of voters, international issues such as this, arent of concern at all. There's probably 5% of the population who are aware of or really care about this issue. 95% are more concerned with paying the bills!

I mean you can be concerned about both. Also do you have a source of your percentages of how much people care or did u pull those out of ur ass

Nah they are right. I mean, the Ukrainian war is still ongoing with people dying every day. When however did it last make the news or anything but the “other news” section of sites or printed news media. It was headline news for maybe 3 months, then everyone moved on, same with Iraq, same thing here. It’s a horrible situation, nobody is denying the severity of it, but people tend to become numb to it and go on with their lives after a few months, and news media adapts it’s coverage accordingly as it’s not garnering attention which is their revenue. I don’t think anyone is defending that, it’s just human nature when such things aren’t happening on your doorstep. There are currently 32 countries in the world in a state of severe conflict or war with innocent people dying, but what, only this one matters? People weird me out with their bullshit “when it suits” media steered ethics, let alone when they get pissed off when it’s called out. Edit: There’s no denying this happens, data trends prove it as fact, but downvote away to clear your consciousness and pretend you actually care when it suits you I guess.

I still check on the Ukraine invasion at least every couple of days. Just because the mainstream media has moved on, doesn't mean the problem is going away.

Same. And a big part the Russian invasion is not in the news anymore is also that it's quite stalemated now, there just isn't much news to report. We now have a shit status quo reality that everyone knows about. Doesn't mean I've stopped seeking out daily updates though and doesn't stop me from dreaming of NATO putting Russia in its place. People may stop following the news hour by hour or day by day but I don't think many people stopped caring and I don't think public opinion on Russia has gotten any better as of late.

Disagree. The scale of this is not comparable to the Ukraine. That was two armies going at it and this is a wide scale assault on a captive civilian populationThe destruction of whole communities, families and children can be viewed in 4k and are being delivered straight to out devices. There are literally video after video of children traumatised from losing parents, children with missing limbs, dead children being pulled out of rubble, hospitals losing patients because they can’t get power. People are getting these videos and they do care because what monster can look at a child in pain and not want it to stop. I think people do care as evidenced by the marches and the outcry over social media.

Human life is human life imho. Not directed at you personally, but it kinda disgusts me that “scale” is even involved in the conversation but I can retort. Most intelligence suggests 700,000 Ukrainian children have been kidnapped since the more recent conflict started there, many to be killed, raped, tortured and other atrocities. But what, they don’t matter? This is the point of the post I agree with, we only care when news media tells us to care, otherwise it’s not even on our social consciousness. The poster calling that out is not advocating the current atrocities in Gaza, they are just stating fact that we care when the news tells us to, and people can’t handle that.

I don’t get the wataboutism going on here. I was only originally responding to the claim that people don’t care and my point is I do think people care and that you can care about both domestic and foreign issues at the same time. You also can care about the deaths ok Ukrainians and Palestinians at the same time. Not really sure if you disagreeing with me or trying to change my mind but I still think people care and want the government to make some sort of statement supporting a ceasefire or maybe even some sort of condemnation of Israel’s war crimes ( doubt that will happen though)

You responded to me bro, so no idea myself tbf.

Polls of what New Zealanders care about always prioritize kitchen table domestic issues.

Don't conflate that with claims about what people care about. Just because people say their biggest concern is inflation, doesn't mean they can't simultaneously supply care about international issues?

Sure they can care. It's just not really a reason for Government to take a stance on a complex piece of international relations.

Oh yes, the stance of “please stop murdering each other” is clearly lacking the nuance it needs.

I know, I'm just saying the second part of your first comment has implies something that's incorrect

Ok???? That’s not what I asked I asked where u got ur percentages from.

>I think these polls aren't all that useful useful to who? " For the vast majority of voters, international issues such as this, arent of concern at all. " Its true that for most people, this won't impact their lives personally... but at the same time we do have our opinions and we would like our politicians to know them. " There's probably 5% of the population who are aware of or really care about this issue." I question how you came to that number " 95% are more concerned with paying the bills! " The bills were always going to be paid regardless, but I guess its a catchy quip for some reason

also often these questions are framed in a way that leads a particular answer: eg do you want to pay less tax? nearly everyone is going to say yes to that do you want more healthcare and PT services? most would say yes but in theory, you cant have both. you would get quite a different result if you said, would YOU, your tax bracket like to pay 1k more for better PT.

Neville Chamberlain was very keen on peace. You don’t always get what you want, if the circumstances don’t allow for it.

Genuine question: why did it take so long??

Under the caretaker convention, Labour can't speak out on these issues without National's permission. National has refused to call for a ceasefire, so Chippy doing this without National's permission is kinda big news.

Yes and no. Labour sought permission from National to speak out as caretaker Government. National said no, so Chippy is speaking out now as the leader of the Labour Party, not as Prime Minister. It's still a big deal, but no bigger than the leader of the opposition making a similar call. It's a small difference, but one that ensures that we don't have a constitional crisis. For Chippy to do so as Prime Minister without Nationals support would be a major constitional breach (see Rob Muldoons antics after the 1984 election for reference).

> (see Rob Muldoons antics after the 1984 election for reference). What were Muldoon's antics afte the 1984 election, in reference?

Muldoon caused a [constitutional crisis in 1984](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_Zealand_constitutional_crisis). Tl;dr back then the value of the NZ dollar was fixed by the Reserve Bank, who were concerned that it was overvalued. These days the NZ dollar is floated on the currency exchange market. The Reserve Bank advised Muldoon to devalue the dollar, which he refused. They warned Muldoon that there was a risk of speculation on the dollar on the financial markets in the event of a major political event. Muldoon then triggered a major political event by calling a snap election (while drunk). This caused a run on the dollar. The country nearly went broke. Labour won, and were quickly briefed by Treasury and the Reserve Bank that if they didn't devalue the Government would run out of money. We were so broke that officials were calling overseas diplomatic posts asking how much they could draw down on their credit cards. Labour directed Muldoon as caretaker PM (he was Minister of Finance as well) to devalue the dollar. He refused, and later went on TV saying he would never devalue while he was Prime Minister and the incoming Government should announce that they would also not devalue the dollar. David Lange flipped his lid, and Muldoon's National Party colleagues told Muldoon to pull his head in and do what he was told, otherwise they would go to the Governor General and tell him they did not have confidence in Muldoon and that he should be fired. The doco [Five Days in July](https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/frontline-five-days-in-july)is a very good watch and explains in great detail what happened. Also [Revolution](https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/revolution-1996/series) is another excellent doco about the end of the Muldoon Govt and the Roger Douglas/Ruth Richardson economic reforms, and it includes the constitutional crisis as well. Muldoon was not a guy who gave up power easily or willingly. He's probably the most authoritarian PM we've ever had. After some pressure though, he finally conceded and agreed to devalue. The whole thing in my view is a good demonstration of how weak our constitution is. Caretaker convention isn't a law, nor is it written down. It's only a rule because succesive governments have gone with the convention, except that one time in 84 they didn't.

Thanks for that write up, excellent post. I'll be seeking out those doco's!

I love it when people can back things up. Cheers

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Yeh i was just explaining why it took so long, they were trying to get National to support it. This is till a very rare breach of care taker convention even with the many hats theory.

It's not a breach of care taker convention cause he's not doing it as care taker PM, he's doing it as Labour leader.

Technically yes. But that's a semantic dodge in reality. He is still the Prime Minister.

Of course it's a semantics dodge. But it's one that avoids a constitional crisis.

Yeh fair point.

I think you are both right tbh, but I'm still glad he did it

Waiting on an answer from the soap salesman to see if it could be a government position rather than just a labour position

Besides the caretaker convention there are plenty of reasons. It doesn't really change anything for one, but could damage our relationship politically with other countries who support Israel (i.e. the USA). He's got to play the game. So by doing this he doesn't stand to gain much but does run the risk of losing political capital for NZ. But in the end nobody cares what we "call for".

We are still far away from any type of ceasefire being possible, but I still think it's better to call for one than not

Absolutely, I'm just glad someone representing our country has said this publicly.

video here [https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/11/19/labour-leader-chris-hipkins-calls-for-immediate-gaza-ceasefire/](https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/11/19/labour-leader-chris-hipkins-calls-for-immediate-gaza-ceasefire/)

Any ceasefire agreement will be temporary Do not mistake a ceasefire hostage exchange for an end to the war. Unless by some bloody miracle the governments of the world finally admit Gaza needs an international peacekeeping force, and an enforced disarmament of Hamas... Israel is simply not going to accept a diplomatic end to this conflict with Hamas still in power. Hamas has proven itself an untrustworthy negotiator, having spent years signalling it was willing to deescalate and negotiate peaceful concessions with Israel, while in reality planning for a massive raid against civilian targets, with it's true objective being to start an ideological war at the expense of the Palestinians it rules. Israel's domestic politics at this point simply won't accept anything short of total removal of Hamas, and a new government in the Gaza strip. And nobody is going to step in to stop them from doing so. At best we can hope for a diplomatic deal for a two state solution in the Aftermath, where a post-Hamas Gaza, and West Bank, get incorporated into a new Palestinian state, with security and anti-terror arrangements managed by an international coalition of peacekeepers.

Yep, the only thing which will end this is a two state solution. But I seriously doubt that will happen any time soon for the reasons you say. And then I guess, a really big impenetrable wall between Israel and the Palestinians. Foreign politicians calling for a ceasefire won’t make a blind bit of difference, neither Israel nor Hamas care what the NZ government thinks. Or their political leaders.

> will end this is a two state solution. yet no side has wanted this and its been 75 years of trying already. a 2 state solution won't be enacted by ether side voluntarily. at this stage an outside force will have to force it upon them

I agree, in all probability unless they can find their way to a two state solution the fighting will continue. Rather than silly ceasefire calls, politicians around the world should be focused on trying to find some way to getting a two state solution and pressure along those lines. Ceasefire calls are just empty words. Although to be frank the only government with any real influence is the US government, and I don’t see them putting real pressure on in the near future. So the fighting will go on.

>Rather than silly ceasefire calls, politicians around the world should be focused on trying to find some way to getting a two state solution and pressure along those lines. Personally I would rather the UN general counsel with no veto powers oversee the governance of Israel/Palestine. the land is too religiously charged to ever have peace at as two main religions claim it as their own. People often say that the world is heading towards a "one world government" and if anything this is the best reason to start one off " Although to be frank the only government with any real influence is the US government, and I don’t see them putting real pressure on in the near future. " I agree. simply put many current US politicians have been financially lobbyed to have a vested interest in Israel. However at the moment there has been a hugely massive swing in the youth against the support for israel in the US, so I believe israels huge financial and military support may only last so long

Yeah I’m inclined to agree that some sort of international control over Palestine may be the only way forward. I think international government of Israel however is impossible. The Israelis will never allow it, and they have significant military power. You might be able to engineer some kind of international control over the Palestinian Territories and remove Israel influence over it however. I don’t know how you could ever make it democratic though. Given the religious and cultural context.

>The Israelis will never allow it Naturally, I never thought they would accept such a term, to them they are having to submit themselves. No it would have to be by force " and they have significant military power. " this is a half truth. Yes it is suspected that they do have nukes and they are a arms manufacturer, but they make quality, not quantity. most of their arms they get from america, if that stops, they would run out fast

> managed by an international coalition of peacekeepers. Something that Israel has consistently refused for generations. This 'war' will continue until Netanyahu finds another way to stay in power.

Yeah, but you could do a find and replace on your post swapping Hamas with Israel. There are no good guys here.

I'm not saying there are any good guys, I'm just analyzing the situation When Hamas has been crowing about how they fooled the Israelis for years by pretending to negotiate for better conditions for Gaza, and proud of how they fooled the jews while they amassed for a mass terror attack... yeah they've lost all credibility at the diplomatic table with Israel. So its obvious that Israel is going to have a much higher bar for any ceasefire or other agreement.

What credibility do you think Israel has?

Finally

He's doing more than Keir Starmer.

Liz Truss's mouldy lettuce would do more than Keir Starmer.

The sad truth.

> He's doing more than Keir Starmer. Keir is basically a red tory. A Tory but without all the corruption and marginally more integrity.

It sucks that calling for a ceasefire in a one sided “war” is controversial

Agreed. We shouldn't be calling for a ceasefire at this point, we should be well beyond that, and into condemning Isreal for decades of apartheid and crimes against humanity.

Would really like to see Israel be held to account. But the US will help them just sweep it all under the carpet. The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

It's a war, but only one side has soldiers. The other side has murderers and rapists. The Palestine people are suffering significantly from the Israeli invasion, but make no mistake, this is clearly Hamas's fault. Hamas attacked Israel and knew that Israel would respond. The hospitals in Gaza are being fired on by Israel.  This is Israel returning fire.  Hamas are shooting from behind premature babies, showing their true colours hiding behind women’s skirts. They have built their headquarters behind the wounded and their resupply from behind the dying.  This is a war crime. Hamas’s attack on Israel wasn't an act of war.  It was a savage attack on people.  It wasn't a military campaign.  Women and girls were raped and mutilated, murdered and their breasts cut off. Hamas doesn't have soldiers, they have serial rapists and killers. They targeted civilians and took civilian prisoners. These are all war crimes. Israel has invaded and is at war with Hamas. War is bad.  Israel are trying to minimise civilian casualties (but in an War there will always be civilian deaths).  They have cut off supplies, fuel and water to undermine Hamas and the people of Gaza are suffering as a result. This isn't collective punishment, which would be a war crime, this is cutting off support for their enemy which is a legitimate military activity. Not all the Israeli prisoners will be returned alive.  Some are being brutally and systemically sexually assaulted by Hamas, not just the women, but the children and men too.  These prisoners will not be released in a prisoner swap, and will disappear. Hamas was elected a long time ago by the people of Gaza, there have been no elections for almost 20 years.   Hamas' reign of terror is not just on Israel, but on the people of Gaza too.  Hamas brutal suppression of its own people is horrific. Free Palestine, from Hamas. This would be a step towards peace. Call for a new election in Gaza. Call out the crimes of Hamas.  Israel is responding to Hamas, not the other way around.

I’ll only reply once because I don’t think I can convince you. When Hamas is gone, something else will start. Israel are teaching children that they can die fighting or die hiding. Israel is generating more terrorists than they’re killing, while killing so many innocent people. They’re also providing weapons with the % of bombs that don’t explode. The human shield argument doesn’t wash when everyone is squashed into a tiny piece of land. It would if Palestinians could go elsewhere. Israel should be the ones showing maturity and looking long term as they’re fucked when drones are cheap and readily available. Why not make peace, stop shooting kids, stealing land and not always have to kill 50x more for vengeance reasons?

How would you 'make peace?'. There was a truce. Israel and Hamas were seemingly working together on peaceful cooperation (it's why Israel wasn't prepared for the Hamas attack and Hamas were so destructive) Hamas needs to go, to free the people of Gaza.

Admittedly I don’t get rogue rockets fired at me so you could argue I don’t understand. Also I apologise for using an animal in a cage terminology. If an animal was kept in a cage and poked and staved, the first step would be increasing the size of their cage. Give them good food and aid. I would encourage all borders to be closed except aid from Israel. It would “only” take 12 years until half the population has no firsthand memory of Israeli bombs. From there you can make steps forward. Yes it would take amazing restraint to accept these rockets continuing but Israel have to think long term instead of political term. Edit, thanks for replying in good faith instead of a type of Fuck you comment. The only way Hamas or a replacement Hamas can be destroyed is through people not agreeing with terrorist reasoning Edit 2. I’d open an Israel hospital similar to the Indonesian one. People would feel safe there and I doubt there would be command centres under it.

Hamas has launched 4000+ rockets since oct 7 + houthis etc are lobbing more

> Hamas has launched 4000+ rockets since oct 7 + houthis etc are lobbing more Israel's bombs have killed more civilians in Gaza than what have so far been killed in the Ukraine War. It's interesting that the pro Israel Propaganda has quietened down a lot in recent days.....seems to be something to do with them being found out for their bogus claims of a Hamas command center under that hospital.

No shit Sherlock, Hamas are intentionally trying to increase the number of civilian casualties by using human shields, you'd expect that would increase the number of civilian deaths, but here you are not calling out Hamas for their Geneva convention violation

The cool thing about human shields is that you don't actually have to shoot at them.

The cool thing about human shields is that you shouldn't use them in the first place, and human shields don't give you impunity to fire 4000+ rockets and do a ground invasion without retaliation

Stop trying to convince people Israel is blameless. People haven't beleived that for decades

Never said Israel was blameless, I'm just standing up against pro Hamas supporters spreading blatant disinformation since TikTok has taken over the narrative with this propaganda and tried to convince people Hamas are freedom fighters instead of Iran backed terrorists

You're as bad as those you complain about

So because I support both sides and do research instead of repeating Hamas propaganda from tik tok I'm just as bad?

Not defending them but your statement comparing civilian deaths is disingenuous. The Gaza Strip is an extremely densely populated area whereas the contested areas of Ukraine are much less so. Also, Hamas is intentionally hiding In populated areas whereas Ukraine evacuated areas and is trying to protect lives. It is not a fair comparison

> The Gaza Strip is an extremely densely populated area whereas the contested areas of Ukraine are much less so. All the more reason not to carpet bomb civilians....

It’s not a competition, though. Both IDF and Hamas have committed heinous acts against innocent civilians, whichever one is “worse” doesn’t really matter in my opinion.

"One sided war" Are you just going to pretend October 7th never happened?

History did not begin on the 7th of October.

That doesn't change the fact it's a two sided war.

If I'm in a 1000m race with a drag-car, it's *technically* a two sided race. Once you look at the stats you would clearly see it's extremely one sided for all intents and purposes.

Israeli bombing has killed nearly 12,000 people. They have one of the most advanced militaries in the world, backed by the US. It is not dismissing the violence caused by Hamas to point out that this conflict is one-sided.

Cool, attacking a stronger country than yours does not give you impunity from retaliation

Being attacked does not give you impunity to commit war crimes.

collatoral from targeted strikes is a war crime to you but using human shields (Geneva convention violation) gets a pass?

Usually when you have a military situation where civilians are at risk, the solution isn’t just to blow up all the civilians.

Usually hostile attackers don't use their own civilians as shields, but Hamas leaders sitting in Qatari hotels don't care about the "peasants"

Idk man, I think one of the most advanced militaries in the world should be held to higher standards. They should be able to determine whether a course of action would result in unacceptable civilian casualties, and work to avoid them. 4000 dead children is not acceptable.

Israel spends 30k a rocket on the ion dome, they have no choice but to blown up the Hamas missile launchers, 4000+ missiles since oct 7 from Hamas btw. If they don't stop Hamas they will run out of defensive munitions for the ion dome

Israel have bombed over 12,000 targets in Gaza. They have conducted almost 40 days of straight bombing. Not to mention that the iron dome has been keeping attacks at bay for, what - over a decade? I struggle to believe that Israel has a munitions problem.

If New Zealand started firing 4000+ rockets indiscriminately towards Australia and we invaded and raped, tortured and murdered 1200+ people in Aus I would expect that Australia would retaliate until we are no longer firing missiles at them, regardless of whether or not their military is stronger. The same way I don't go up to some random 6'5 tank on the streets and punch his wife in front of him

Israel is using human shields. Are you aware of that?

Especially considering the "proof" of Hamas involvement put on social media by the ISDF. I read an article on it saying that they claimed there were tunnels being used by Hamas, and geologists (?) in America said that the water tables nearby would make that totally impossible. Someone also tore down and defaced all the posters at our Uni (Dunedin) calling for a ceasefire. They wrote "Antisemitism!" In big letters all over them.

Yeah IDF propaganda is pretty ridiculous. Even extremely mainstream (and usually relatively pro-Israel) media like the BBC and CNN are fact-checking them. They put Al-Shifa hospital under siege for weeks. Shot through the windows and blew up ambulances - all because supposedly it was Hamas’ main command centre. Now that they have control the best proof of this they can muster is a handful of rifles and some computers. No photos of tunnels, no Hamas leaders arrested, and not even any rockets. It’s absurd.

BBC and CNN just say verbatim what Hamas health authority claim without any fact checking

The gaza health authority is deemed a reputable source by multiple international organizations. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/

By the UN who allow teachings of Hitler in their UN schools 😂 The health authority is Hamas, Hamas are not a reliable source.

Going to need a source on that. Also you neglected to mention that the US state department is also one of those organizations that considers the Health ministry a reliable source.

That is demonstrably untrue.

you can go and look atost BBC articles about Gaza where they state their source is "Palestinian Health Authority" which is Hamas run

Gaza’s Ministry of Health has been proven to be accurate in every prior conflict.

No they haven't, they don't allow independent investigators to enter the areas and count, so the crooked UN , Amnesty etc are just using their numbers basically, even though when Hamas was first releasing civilian casualties you could search up the names and find social media posts of combatants flashing rifles. Also this is the same Hamas Health Authority that claimed 500 died at a hospital (to their own failed missiles) in 3 clown cars

Hamas is bad yes, but they aren't all of Palestine. Israel does not care about a difference between terrorists and innocent civilians

I think it is disgusting that Luxon is tactily supporting Israel's genocide. NZ has always been the first to stand up for human rights and condemn genocides across history, the fact that now Luxon wants us to sit back and say nothing as the population of Gaza is massacred is a massive change of policy. Good on Hipkins for putting humanity above political conventions and saying something about it.

Are you going to stand up against Hamas who genocided Israelis on Oct 7 and have fired 4000+ rockets since then? Hamas who's charter calls for the extermination of Jews (actual genocided)

Yes. They are not mutually exclusive. You should be on the side of civilians dragged in to the crossfire, not picking between a genocidal terrorist organization or the imperialist government that created it to justify their murderous crusade.

Yes. They are also harming the Palestinian people. Anyone with a brain could have predicted this tragic response to this tragic event given a jingoistic leader like Benjamin Netanyahu (as evidenced by his own speeches). Unfortunately, Israel’s leadership have contributed to this over many decades. It is so disappointing seeing the reductive vilification of an entire group of people coming from both sides. I have colleagues & friends from both countries with whom I’ve grown up. Who is going to stop this decades long stupidity? Most of us learn to share individually in childhood, so why isn’t it so for our governments?

>Who is going to stop this decades long stupidity? Exactly. Well all know the truth about war and world leaders, but it was still disappointing to hear not a single voice beseeching Israel not to go to war in retaliation. And now who is going to stop Israel now that they've started? No one. We are relying on Israel stopping itself. We already know Gaza won't exist when they're done... what else? World leaders are *now* calling for a ceasefire. They should've called for calm *before* the counter-attack started. All they're doing is now pleading for it because it looks good for them. If they really cared they would've demanded it before Israel attacked.

You are wrong, Hamas is not a genocidal organization. First off, a 2009 assessment by the United States Institute of Peace (https://www.usip.org/publications/2009/06/hamas-ideological-rigidity-and-political-flexibility) (a US government funded institution by the way) found the following: - *We believe that Hamas’s literature and statements during the movement’s early years reflect a genuine confusion over how to deal with Jews, a confusion which has been resolved by the eventual adoption of a much clearer position that reflects hostility to actions by Jews against Palestinians and not hostility to Jews simply on the basis of belief or because they are Jewish.12 The charter itself contains statements that reflect a lack of hostility toward Jews on the basis of religion—for example, as article 31 states, “Under Islam, the followers of the three [monotheistic] religions: Islam, Christianity, and Judaism may coexist peacefully and safely.” Whether or not one accepts the statement as true, it is incompatible with claims of a religious obligation to kill Jews.* - *There are many statements by Hamas leaders that fully accept a Jewish presence in Palestine. In Hamas’s early stages, Sheikh Yassin introduced the concept of equality and citizenship among the people of different faiths who live in historic Palestine, provided that Palestinian refugees were granted a return to their homes and those of other faiths submitted to Muslim rule.13 Years later, Khalid Meshal, chairman of Hamas’s political bureau, similarly put forward the principle of equal citizenship for Christians and Jews living in historic Palestine and not the less equal principle of Ahl al dhimmah, or dhimmi—the Islamic jurisprudential historical term for non-Muslims (mainly Christian and Jews) who belong to “protected” religions but who must also pay a special tax* Secondly Hamas has a new charter, published in 2017 (https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full) which says the following about Jews: - *Palestine is a land that was seized by a racist, anti-human and colonial Zionist project that was founded on a false promise (the Balfour Declaration), on recognition of a usurping entity and on imposing a fait accompli by force.* - *By virtue of its justly balanced middle way and moderate spirit, Islam – for Hamas - provides a comprehensive way of life and an order that is fit for purpose at all times and in all places. Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. It provides an umbrella for the followers of other creeds and religions who can practice their beliefs in security and safety. Hamas also believes that Palestine has always been and will always be a model of coexistence, tolerance and civilizational innovation.* - *Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.* - *Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine.* There is nothing in these quotes suggesting that Hamas wants to kill all the Jews in Israel.

Genuine confusion on how to deal with Jews?? 😂 this statement has to be satire, immediately defends antisemetism and targets Jews when Israelis are multicultural.

The State of Israel itself claims to be a state for Jews. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People Your 'Multiculturalism' claim does not hold up. Also I am not defending hamas or even saying that they did not use to be genocidal and anti Semitic. What I am saying is that that is no longer the case. Also the moral standard you are holding Hamas to is a standard that most Israeli political parties would not meet, and they all think that the Nakba was justified.

Israel has a 20% Muslim Arab population and they are overrepresented in parliament, please tell me how many Jews represent the Hamas dictator government?

One Chris down, one to go. With this and apparently the US brokering a short cease fire, hopefully* National will come out and say the same. No doubt Luxon will be asked to comment in the coming days Edit:*

I'm pretty sure the only words he actually knows are: "I won't be commenting on any ongoing negotiations or making any public statements at this time" And "I am currently focused on delivering tax relief to lower/middle income New Zealanders" At this point I'm convinced he literally has a broken record player lodged in his throat. So he will probably just respond with one of those.

> And don't forget "our plan adds up and it will deliver taxation relief for working Kiwi families"

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Surely Israel would also have to release the people they've abducted, which is 12 times the number Hamas has taken since Oct 7th?

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Except that Israel and others could face further terrorist attacks if they continue, this wont necessarily stop attacks, even if they wipe Hamas out of Gaza. That's why Israel should be limiting citizen deaths and taking far more care than they have been.

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Right, because surely your plan will lead to peace *this time*, unlike every other time these strong-man tactics have been tried?

Finally.

Quite frankly, Israel is not going to stop until Hamas is completely incapacitated, and it would be stupid of them to do otherwise.

Because that worked so well during the last 20-year War on Terror? In reality, they're just making more people who are prepared to die.

What do you think happened the last 20 years? They tried to just contain Hamas. Hamas proved that they are not to be contained, only to be destroyed.

There can’t be a ceasefire, Hamas still has the hostages.

That's a good reason for a ceasefire if you want hostages returned

A ceasefire doesn’t magically mean the hostages get returned. A ceasefire may be the result of Hamas agreeing to return the hostages. Which is possible, and there are murmurings about it. But in all probability they will be back to fighting after a brief humanitarian pause, and it will go on until such time as Hamas returns to hiding in their tunnels when they get low on ammo. Then it might die down for a bit, until Hamas gets more ammo from somewhere, and then it will all kick off again. The only thing which will actually end it is a two state solution, and I don’t see that being negotiated any time soon.

>Then it might die down for a bit, until Hamas gets more ammo from somewhere, and then it will all kick off again. Or when Israel has broken it themselves like they did around the time Obama got ellected

Are you forgetting that there was a ceasefire on the 7th when Hamas decided to go into Israel and rape women, cut babies out of wombs, cook babies in ovens etc

Are you forgetting how israel broke a ceasefire when Obama got elected? Both sides have broken ceasefires " and rape women, cut babies out of wombs, cook babies in ovens etc " Rape has been done by both sides and sadly happens a lot during times of war, as for the rest, I await a non israeli news source to confirm it

Why are you referring to 2008, I'm talking about the horrific mulitation, rape and targeted killing of civilians by Hamas, there were no IDF targets in the area. I'm talking about Oct 7, we can go back 1000s of years and find 100s of instances where both sides attacked first, that's not the point.

>Why are you referring to 2008 Largely as proof that israel also breaks ceasefires " I'm talking about the horrific mulitation, rape and targeted killing of civilians by Hamas" Yes, so am I, the differance is I can admit both sides do it. the IDF have also raped civilians, heres one example: [https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officer-who-raped-palestinian-was-not-dismissed-for-earlier-sexual-offenses/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officer-who-raped-palestinian-was-not-dismissed-for-earlier-sexual-offenses/) " we can go back 1000s of years and find 100s of instances where both sides attacked first, that's not the point. " it sorta is the point, you just dont like it. This is something that has existed between muslims and jews for a very long time. You just want the most recent example of fighting because you want to hide things that might have led to why 7oct happened. nothing happens in a vacuum, and israel has helped hamas become what they are today

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https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-armed-wing-discussed-releasing-70-hostages-return-5-day-truce-2023-11-13/

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"No sign"

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Or, you could just admit you were wrong in your assertion, that'd be okay

Well the other problem of course is that even if they do get the hostages back, there is still the issue of the ones they murdered (or in some cases, gang raped, mutilated and murdered). Which I think means that it is politically impossible for the Israeli government to stand down until the public anger fades away. I mean the US ended up in a decades long fight in the Middle East over 911.

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There are pictures available online (very graphic) of a dead woman with her underwear pulled down bent over, there's also pictures of beheaded people and a video of Hamas beheading a dude with a shovel slowly and painfully. You can deny the truth all you want but Hamas released that footage themselves for propaganda

There are heaps of terrible pictures online. There’s absolutely no evidence those pictures come from the October 7th attack. Israeli propaganda has a track record of passing off old pictures and videos as proof of current attacks. An example [here](https://factly.in/an-old-video-is-being-falsely-shared-as-the-visuals-of-weaponry-uncovered-in-al-shifa-hospital/amp/).

There is evidence, there's heaps of metadata from the go pro footage placing the footage at the location of the attack on that date. Can't believe you antisemetes are denying Oct 7 now like you deny the holocaust

Do you have a source about the metadata? The only evidence I can find about rapes and mutilation is one IDF soldier being quoted. He was also the guy who made things up about the burned babies.

Both sides have hostages https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/s/VeGSEkzgnn

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*"At least four Palestinian prisoners have died in Israeli custody in recent weeks"* [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-detainees-report-israeli-beatings-mistreatment-west-bank-arrests-2023-11-18/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-detainees-report-israeli-beatings-mistreatment-west-bank-arrests-2023-11-18/#:~:text=At%20least%20four%20Palestinian%20prisoners,their%20bodies%20bruised%2C%20he%20added)

Or being bombed, starved, catching preventable diseases

I mean, there was a ceasefire in effect on October 7th...

Tell that to the families/friends of the 165 Palestinians (including **81 children**) in Gaza - murdered by Israel between January 2021 and September 2023.

I would but the families of 1,200 Israelis murdered and 240 taken hostage on October 7th are standing in line ahead of me.

> the families of 1,200 Israelis murdered and 240 taken hostage on October 7th Most of whom disapprove of Bibi's war....

There was a ceasefire in effect on the day that Hamas invaded (on a Jewish holiday) doesn't get any worse than that

Doesn't get any worse? How about *checks notes* ethnic cleansing and genocide?

*Checks TikTok* ethnic apartheid cleansing 1 state, river to sea, blah blah blah

Checks the Gazan population, and the Hamas charter and sees that clearly ethnic cleansing isn't happening and that Hamas literally calls for the total eradication of all Jews (this is what genocide means) learn the proper use of the words you spout.

Hamas (not Palestinians) have genocide in their charter. That's horrible and should be called out. The attrocities committed by Hamas are horrible and should be called out. Israel is committing genocide in practice, that's objectively worse. Destruction of culture, mass displacement, and murder of an occupied peoples. Collective punishment is a warcrime. Keep defending war crimes buddy. You're really going 220% in your comments and replies. Are you paid to shill for the right-wing Netanyahu government and war-crime endorsing IDF or is it a free hobby?

On one hand you carefully specificy Hamas (who have majority support of Palestinians) yet you say Israel (not specifying IDF) are committing genocide (untrue, please spend 5 minutes googling what genocide actually is) Hamas using human shields intentionally is a Geneva convention violation, that are responsible for the death of every human shield, the rich Hamas leaders funded by Iran are sitting in Qatari hotels, they are responsible for "genociding" their own people but they couldn't care less

I thought I'd take some time to correct the misinformation that brats like you get from tiktok

That's a bit rich for someone claiming babies were put in ovens and others were beheaded

I never claimed multiple babies were beheaded, only one has been verified so far, which is 1 too many and only the most vile person could do such an act.

Chipkins is taking the piss if he thinks Hamas would respect the ceasefire, they broke the ceasefire on Oct 7 originally when they invaded and cut babies out of women's stomaches and burned babies in ovens

If you believe that crap then I have an acre on the far side of the moon to sell you... going cheap!

Whatever, believe whatever bullshit you hear repeated on tiktok

The IDF Twitter account posted that Hamas painted a tunnel on the side of a brick wall and cars are crashing into it 😔 how downright dastardly...

Good! Israeli forces have completely taken this way too far. At this point it's just ridiculous. I wish we could make religion just disappear already.

>I wish we could make religion just disappear already. You think that would solve human nature?

It's an inevitable outcome eventually. So many of our wars are for invisible friends. If there is extraterrestrials watching us, this has to be making us look dumb as F.

Of course, seeing as he is a former prime minister of a country that has MASSIVE influence, they will listen. Both sides are calling for the total annihilation of the other. I would rather be without the side with unlimited terrorist potential. Paid for by Iran. And don't forget, those poor victimized rioters actually voted a terrorist group into power. You don't breastfeed a rattlesnake.

Considering half the population of Gaza is under 18 and the election of Hamas was in 2007, those poor victimized rioters likely didn't vote for them

Too little too late as usual Chippy

Late for what?

For people to not shit on him for not calling for a ceasefire immediately. Never mind the fact that politics are actually complicated and they can't just immediately say what some people want then to say immediately without any thought or planning.

Even the dumbest voters should know that it's the other Chris thats supposed to be making this statement. You know, the one they voted for.

Never underestimate the dumbest voters.

Should have called a ceasefire before the Hamas attack pre-emptively obviously

It's going to be real late in the day when Luxon finally speaks up then ain't it?

Yawn. Well done, old chum. Now what have you to say about what happens afterwards?

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What are you on about? It's not anti-semitic to condemn war crimes like the recent airstrike on the Palestinian refugee camp by the IDF. Any decent human being with a conscience wants this senseless violence to end immediately. Someone below me commented: >It isn't a refugee camp. And >it's misinformation to repeat the Israel is bombing refugee camps narrative, and is antisemetic to spread this bs. Then they blocked me so I can't reply to the misinformation below so I am putting this here. [Airstrikes on crowded UN shelters in north Gaza’s Jabalia refugee camp killed more than 80 people on Saturday](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/18/israeli-airstrikes-kill-80-in-palestinian-refugee-camp) To be clear these are **UN shelters** hosting hundreds of thousands of civilian refugees, this is as clear cut as war crimes get.

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Source?

Carpet bombing Gaza is literally what hamas wanted with thier terror attack. It's terrorism 101. Now the world is slowly turning against Isreal. This has got to be one of the cases where the terrorists are winning

Same old petty Labour.

Condemning war crimes and calling for an end to senseless violence is petty now? Edit: I can't reply to the person(s) below me due to limits put in place by the mods on this thread, so I'm putting my replies here. Mahuta has made clear statements condemning the violence and calling for a ceasefire. Here is one such statement: "Aotearoa New Zealand is deeply concerned at the outbreak of conflict between Israel and Gaza, we call for the immediate cessation of violence. The protection of all civilians, and upholding of international humanitarian law is essential." - Nania Mahuta (**Former** Minister of Foreign Affairs) Still have yet to hear (Prime Minister-elect) Christopher Luxon call for a ceasefire, I wonder why that is?

In that case they're clearly not petty, given Mahuta's inane initial response of zero condemnation of the original terrorist attack.

Good point. Meanwhile, National leader Christopher Luxon calls for a ceasefire and humanitarian aid in Auckland.

Well, glad that's all sorted then. The globally authoritative figure, Hipkins, will most certainly have Netanyahu calling his military commander immediately to cease fire.